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#1swisher
11-13-2012, 11:51 AM
Bob Nightengale
The #Marlins (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Marlins&src=hash) are letting teams know that virtually everyone is available on trade market, and plenty of teams are calling.

Stanton is staying.

SoxSpeed22
11-13-2012, 12:23 PM
Greg Dobbs would do just fine. Donny Solano is also tempting.

kittle42
11-13-2012, 12:50 PM
Dobbs would be a really nice bench addition - exactly what the Sox needed last year.

thomas35forever
11-13-2012, 01:44 PM
Glad Mark will be back with us next year.

VenturaFan23
11-13-2012, 03:45 PM
Why does poor Stanton have to stay?

ChiSoxGal85
11-13-2012, 05:22 PM
Marlins seem to be dealing; via Twitter:

Ken Rosenthal ‏@Ken_Rosenthal (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal) Inclusion of Reyes unconfirmed. What we know: Buerhle and Josh Johnson to #BlueJays (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23BlueJays&src=hash). Escobar, Hechavarria to #Marlins (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Marlins&src=hash). And more both ways.

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-13-2012, 05:22 PM
This was no joke. Twitter just exploded with a monster trade: Blue Jays are getting Buehrle AND Johnson for Escobar and Hechavarria, plus more. And one of those guys is rumored to be Jose Reyes! Damn do I feel sorry for those Marlins fans.

keloms
11-13-2012, 05:23 PM
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/

Buerhle headed to #BlueJays (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23BlueJays&src=hash) along with Josh Johnson, sources tell me and @jonmorosi (https://twitter.com/jonmorosi).

keloms
11-13-2012, 05:26 PM
oops, wrong forum. Can a mod please delete/move/merge this?

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-13-2012, 05:35 PM
Looks like this so far:

To Miami:
Yunel Escobar, Adeiny Hechavarria, Justin Nicolino, Henderson Alvarez,

To Toronto:
Mark Buehrle, Josh Johnson, Jose Reyes, Emilio Bonafacio, John Buck

mzh
11-13-2012, 05:35 PM
Heyman says Buehrle, Johnson, Reyes, Bonifiacio and John Buck are all heading north of the border. Wow.

DeadMoney
11-13-2012, 05:38 PM
Everybody is available, and everybody is gone.

Marlins = joke.

keloms
11-13-2012, 05:51 PM
Going to be hard for Mark to find a new residence in TO. Pitbulls are banned there.

ComiskeyBrewer
11-13-2012, 06:09 PM
Giancarlo Stanton ain't happy


Giancarlo Stanton @Giancarlo818 (https://twitter.com/Giancarlo818)

(https://twitter.com/Giancarlo818)Alright, I'm pissed off!!! Plain & Simple

Frater Perdurabo
11-13-2012, 06:12 PM
Does the CBA still include a provision that a veteran on a multi-year deal who is traded, can demand a trade from his new team? If so, I wonder if Buehrle could or would demand a trade from Toronto.

WhiteSox5187
11-13-2012, 06:15 PM
Someone at MLB has to get rid of Loira. This is fantastic news for Toronto but it is bad for Miami and also bad for baseball in Florida.

RKMeibalane
11-13-2012, 06:21 PM
Here's the ESPN article (http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8629079/jose-reyes-josh-johnson-verge-being-traded-miami-marlins-toronto-blue-jays) about the trade. Loria is a terrible owner.

PaleHoser
11-13-2012, 06:24 PM
My son just called me about this deal. He got his Escobar's mixed up and thought these guys were going to Kansas City.

I'm thrilled he was wrong.

Regarding Buehrle, even if he can demand a trade I don't think Toronto can find any takers without eating a big part of that contract. I love Burls, but not at $19M per year for the last two years of his deal.

I love seeing the Blue Jays make this deal. Maybe we won't see the Yankees or Red Sox in the post season next year.

And as long as the Marlins are having another fire sale and seem to like Blue Jays prospects, how about Nestor Molina for Giancarlo Stanton?

And once they're done with the trades, can Bud Selig force Jeff Loria by invoking the "best interests of baseball" clause in his powers? He's a disgrace to the game and wonders why the Marlins can't draw. He's lower than whale ****.

whitesoxfan1986
11-13-2012, 06:28 PM
My son just called me about this deal. He got his Escobar's mixed up and thought these guys were going to Kansas City.

I'm thrilled he was wrong.

Regarding Buehrle, even if he can demand a trade I don't think Toronto can find any takers without eating a big part of that contract. I love Burls, but not at $19M per year for the last two years of his deal.

I love seeing the Blue Jays make this deal. Maybe we won't see the Yankees or Red Sox in the post season next year.

And as long as the Marlins are having another fire sale and seem to like Blue Jays prospects, how about Nestor Molina for Giancarlo Stanton?

And once they're done with the trades, can Bud Selig force Jeff Loria by invoking the "best interests of baseball" clause in his powers? He's a disgrace to the game and wonders why the Marlins can't draw. He's lower than whale ****.

I agree with you that Selig should veto the trade. As a matter of fact, no trades similar to this should be allowed ever again because it is bad for baseball. If you allow this trade, the Sawx-Dodgers trade sets a new, dangerous precedent for MLB.

keloms
11-13-2012, 06:32 PM
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/statuses/268510606565453824

Asked official with one of clubs if he has any concern that commissioner might kill the deal. His response: "None at all."

Brian26
11-13-2012, 06:32 PM
I don't know how Selig allows this trade to go down. Of course, I thought the Boston-Dodgers trade should have been vetoed last yr too.

SephClone89
11-13-2012, 06:35 PM
The major takeaway from this deal: John Buck returns to Toronto to terrorize the White Sox.

keloms
11-13-2012, 06:36 PM
I don't know how Selig allows this trade to go down. Of course, I thought the Boston-Dodgers trade should have been vetoed last yr too.

It's apparent that you don't get in the MLB owners circle unless you're tight with Bud and his cronies so once you're in, you probably don't have much to worry about. That's why Mark Cuban would've never lasted.

PaleHoser
11-13-2012, 06:39 PM
The major takeaway from this deal: John Buck returns to Toronto to terrorize the White Sox.

Gordon Beckham will be getting fitted for a cup with extra padding.

SCCWS
11-13-2012, 06:42 PM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8629079/jose-reyes-josh-johnson-verge-being-traded-miami-marlins-toronto-blue-jays

mahagga73
11-13-2012, 06:43 PM
Looks like this so far:

To Miami:
Yunel Escobar, Adeiny Hechavarria, Justin Nicolino, Henderson Alvarez,

To Toronto:
Mark Buehrle, Josh Johnson, Jose Reyes, Emilio Bonafacio, John Buck
Damn. If the Jays avoid the injury bug they might be a contender next year, should be I should say.

SephClone89
11-13-2012, 06:43 PM
No way!!!

KRS1
11-13-2012, 06:51 PM
Wow, the Marlins big-spending revolution lasted a whole season.

RKMeibalane
11-13-2012, 06:53 PM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ra4fDY1vjPQ/TaO4TfkO5RI/AAAAAAAAAaY/kGy8GfapQyc/s1600/25917_yoda.jpg

"With the "search" tool, things you will see: other places, the future, the past, old threads long gone."

soxfanatlanta
11-13-2012, 06:59 PM
Huge salary dump, and now Miami is back to a small salary team, with a brand new stadium, compliments of the city.

**** you, Loria.

I am hoping Bud prevents this deal for the good of the game, but I doubt it.

getonbckthr
11-13-2012, 07:09 PM
Makes me wonder if Arencibia is in play for the White Sox.

mahagga73
11-13-2012, 07:09 PM
Huge salary dump, and now Miami is back to a small salary team, with a brand new stadium, compliments of the city.

**** you, Loria.

I am hoping Bud prevents this deal for the good of the game, but I doubt it.
They still didn't draw even with the stadium did they? It's hard to believe with all the Latin fans there they don't sell out most games, they have a real love and passion for baseball. What's the deal with the attendance , was it a lot about Ozzies mouth last year or what?

kobo
11-13-2012, 07:12 PM
Deadspin nails it again: http://deadspin.com/5960332/the-miami-marlins-are-a-hilarious-disgrace

#1swisher
11-13-2012, 07:13 PM
Juan C. Rodriquez
Source: #Marlins (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Marlins&src=hash) chipping in $4 million, getting back CF Jake Marisnick and RHP Anthony DeSclafani among others. #bluejays (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23bluejays&src=hash)

C Jeff Mathis heading to #marlins (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23marlins&src=hash) as well.

WLL1855
11-13-2012, 07:16 PM
They still didn't draw even with the stadium did they? It's hard to believe with all the Latin fans there they don't sell out most games, they have a real love and passion for baseball. What's the deal with the attendance , was it a lot about Ozzies mouth last year or what?

A lot of it is the fact that Loria is a world class jackoff.

doublem23
11-13-2012, 07:24 PM
Loria should go to prison

ChiSoxGal85
11-13-2012, 07:27 PM
Holy crap. That's a big trade. Wonder if this is a three- or four-team deal, yet to be announced.

shingo10
11-13-2012, 07:28 PM
The Sox-Marlins series went from being a must see with Oz and Mark coming back to basically a Sox-Royals series.

mahagga73
11-13-2012, 07:29 PM
The Sox-Marlins series went from being a must see with Oz and Mark coming back to basically a Sox-Royals series.
The Royals own us so let's hope not.

russ99
11-13-2012, 07:39 PM
Awful trade. If we had any kind of commissioner, they'd put a stop to it.

If Loria is this dumb, he should sell the team...

Lip Man 1
11-13-2012, 07:43 PM
I suspect when Toronto is back in 4th place at the All Star break 10 games out Buehrle will be on the block.

Loria ruined the Expos, he ruined the Marlins, 3rd time a charm? (rumors he wants to unload Miami and buy the Mets)

And yes he's tight with Bud so nothing is going to be done to stop the deal or get him removed from ownership.

Lip

#1swisher
11-13-2012, 07:48 PM
The players reportedly part of the trade include:
Blue Jays players Henderson Alvarez, Yunel Escobar, Adeiny Hechavarria, Justin Nicolino, Jake Marisnick, and Anthony DeSclafani

Miami Marlins players Josh Johnson, Mark Buehrle, John Buck, Jose Reyes, and Emilio Bonifacio.

Ken Rosenthal
Source: Nolasco could be next #Marlins (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Marlins&src=hash) player traded.

Asked official with one of clubs if he has any concern that commissioner might kill the deal. His response: "None at all."

Domeshot17
11-13-2012, 07:52 PM
Giancarlo Stanton ‏@Giancarlo818 (https://twitter.com/Giancarlo818) Alright, I'm pissed off!!! Plain & Simple



Logan Morrison ‏@LoMoMarlins (https://twitter.com/LoMoMarlins)
I bet Canadians are feeling a little better about NAFTA tonight..

WhiteSox5187
11-13-2012, 07:56 PM
If you're Selig's friend it doesn't matter what you do, he will find a way to allow it. Loria should never have been allowed to own another team after what he did in Montreal, but sure enough he got another team and did it all over again and has probably destroyed whatever slim prospects were there of making baseball in Florida at all successful. Tampa needed Miami to be successful to have any chance of getting a new stadium, but now that is not going to happen. This whole situation is disgusting. Shame on Loria and shame on Selig for allowing it happen.

Frontman
11-13-2012, 08:00 PM
I suspect when Toronto is back in 4th place at the All Star break 10 games out Buehrle will be on the block.


Considering how well the Sox/Blue Jays trades in the past work out, maybe we can see ol' #56 on the Southside again!!!!

Goose
11-13-2012, 09:08 PM
Someone at MLB has to get rid of Loira. This is fantastic news for Toronto but it is bad for Miami and also bad for baseball in Florida.

I think Florida is bad for baseball.

Time to fold or move some teams.

TaylorStSox
11-13-2012, 09:21 PM
How good are the prospects the Marlins are getting? I know Loria really screwed the citizens of Miami, but with that attendance, they had to try to trade Buehrle and Reyes. Those contracts are pretty putrid.

HomeFish
11-13-2012, 09:36 PM
Honestly, I think the Marlins are getting the better end of this deal.

RKMeibalane
11-13-2012, 09:45 PM
Honestly, I think the Marlins are getting the better end of this deal.

The problem is that the general public won't see it that way. Loria will be buried for this (and rightfully so). The Marlins spent a significant amount of money to improve their roster, so that they could contend in 2012. They also hired a new manager. Now, less than one season removed from that spending spree, the Marlins have traded Hanley Ramirez, Mark Buehrle, and Jose Reyes. Heath Bell was a disaster in the bullpen.

Ozzie Guillen did everything he could to get himself fired the first week of the season. The Marlins decided to keep him around for the entire 2012 campaign before they finally got rid of him, but they're still paying him.

The Marlins enter 2013 with a roster that's significantly worse on paper than what they had in 2012, as Stanton is the only threat in their lineup. The Nationals are an excellent ballclub, and will likely contend again in '13, as will Atlanta. The Phillies were ravaged by injuries and inconsistent play, but still had enough to make a run at the WC before finally falling apart for good. They'll have Howard and Utley back for a full season, and should still be competitive, though their roster is aging.

The Marlins are in trouble, and it's Loria's fault. No one will be interested in seeing how the assets they've acquired from Toronto will work out. People are tired of seeing their money flushed down the toilet.

DSpivack
11-13-2012, 10:06 PM
Major League would've been a much weirder movie if the ownership got Cleveland to build them a stadium first.

DumpJerry
11-13-2012, 10:08 PM
Selig will kill the deal.











Right after he implements a common sense system for scheduling the season.

thomas35forever
11-13-2012, 10:59 PM
The only remaining question is whether they can avoid 100 losses next season.

Lip Man 1
11-13-2012, 11:26 PM
Crasnick thinks they'll lose 110 games and blisters Miami management:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove12/story/_/id/8629415/miami-marlins-long-season-2013-mlb

Lip

palehozenychicty
11-13-2012, 11:52 PM
I think if their young starters hold up, Toronto will contend. They look very, very deep. Will post a lineup soon.

Bucky F. Dent
11-14-2012, 08:30 AM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20121113&content_id=40277468&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb


Buehrle & Reyes to Toronto!

Hitmen77
11-14-2012, 08:33 AM
This trade is not possible. WSI has informed me over the past year that no other team would ever take on Buehrle's contract.

Bucky F. Dent
11-14-2012, 08:34 AM
My bad - could a mod kill this thread. Didn't realize the other had incorporated the trade.

doublem23
11-14-2012, 08:47 AM
Man, this kind of makes me wish Ozzie hadn't gotten fired

amsteel
11-14-2012, 08:50 AM
If you can get someone else to pay for your stadium and players, why not?

Rocky Soprano
11-14-2012, 08:59 AM
Man, this kind of makes me wish Ozzie hadn't gotten fired

I was thinking the exact same thing.

russ99
11-14-2012, 09:07 AM
I was thinking the exact same thing.

I was thinking the same thing, another excuse for the haters to pile on the guy yet again.

Give it a rest already.

Red Barchetta
11-14-2012, 09:19 AM
Huge salary dump, and now Miami is back to a small salary team, with a brand new stadium, compliments of the city.

**** you, Loria.

I am hoping Bud prevents this deal for the good of the game, but I doubt it.

While he's cleaning house, paint over the lime green walls in the new ballpark and ditch the techno color uniforms. I would love to see the Teal trim pinstripes come back. Just insert the Marlin over an "M" instead of the "F".

How can this guy ever expect to build a loyal fanbase?! It's like following a circus.

salty99
11-14-2012, 09:34 AM
How good are the prospects the Marlins are getting? I know Loria really screwed the citizens of Miami, but with that attendance, they had to try to trade Buehrle and Reyes. Those contracts are pretty putrid.


The prospects they are getting on paper are pretty well liked.

pythons007
11-14-2012, 09:42 AM
The prospects they are getting on paper are pretty well liked.

Dude, the guys he they traded away were basically all all-stars, they had better be something!

palehozenychicty
11-14-2012, 09:45 AM
If this finally gets Loria to leave the game, then so be it. Everybody saw this coming last winter. If the team flatlined, which they did, he was going to dump everyone.

The guy deserves ill gains.

palehozenychicty
11-14-2012, 09:52 AM
The Jays' lineup, pending deal approval.

C - JPArrenciba/D'Arnaud/Buck
1B - Edwin Encarnacion/Lind
2B - Izturis
SS - Reyes
3B - Lawrie
LF - Bonifacio
CF - Rasmus
RF - Bautista
DH - Revolving Door

SP - Morrow
SP - Johnson
SP - Buerhle
SP - Romero
SP - Villanueva/Drabek/anyone/who cares


That's a pretty deep, solid team. They could still trade Buck and Rasmus to get more help. But they are better than the Orioles on paper. Whether they can beat out the Rays and Yanks is another story. At the minimum, they'll challenge for the WC.

chicagowhitesox1
11-14-2012, 10:04 AM
The Jays' lineup, pending deal approval.

C - JPArrenciba/D'Arnaud/Buck
1B - Edwin Encarnacion/Lind
2B - Izturis
SS - Reyes
3B - Lawrie
LF - Bonifacio
CF - Rasmus
RF - Bautista
DH - Revolving Door

SP - Morrow
SP - Johnson
SP - Buerhle
SP - Romero
SP - Villanueva/Drabek/anyone/who cares


That's a pretty deep, solid team. They could still trade Buck and Rasmus to get more help. But they are better than the Orioles on paper. Whether they can beat out the Rays and Yanks is another story. At the minimum, they'll challenge for the WC.

ESPN's Buster Olney is predicting a 4th place finish. He actually might have a point because this team does look strong on paper but can these guys stay healthy.

palehozenychicty
11-14-2012, 10:16 AM
ESPN's Buster Olney is predicting a 4th place finish. He actually might have a point because this team does look strong on paper but can these guys stay healthy.

That's why I'm not completely sold either. The Yanks are fading, the Rays can't hit, and the Orioles are still an unknown. The Red Sox are not a good team.

If they stay healthy and the pitching is good, then they could win the division. If they get hurt, then it's another irrelevant season.

They had to go for it, though. The AL East landscape is changing.

beasly213
11-14-2012, 10:31 AM
Ontario also has a ban on owning a Pit Bull (Which is completely ridiculious by the way)

So Mark can't even have them a few towns over like he did in Florida. He can't have them at all.

Domeshot17
11-14-2012, 11:02 AM
While there is no denying the Marlins are a joke of a franchise, Ozzie Guillen may have completely ruined that team. They just never recovered from the Castro incident. He could not take the levels of talent they had and get them to function as a working unit.

It is amazing the fall out that those events had.

sullythered
11-14-2012, 11:04 AM
Ontario also has a ban on owning a Pit Bull (Which is completely ridiculious by the way)

So Mark can't even have them a few towns over like he did in Florida. He can't have them at all.
He loves those dogs so much, I bet he immediately asks to be moved elsewhere.

Noneck
11-14-2012, 11:45 AM
He loves those dogs so much, I bet he immediately asks to be moved elsewhere.

Asking is one thing , getting his wish is another. 48M over the next 3 years may be a tough contract to move.

#1swisher
11-14-2012, 11:48 AM
Jon Heyman
Jeffrey Loria tells @CBSSports (https://twitter.com/CBSSports): "We finished in last place! Figure it out.'' http://cbsprt.co/TZTWFf (http://t.co/4216M5rb)

Loria calls finishing last "unacceptable.'' says, "we have to take a new course." also, he's "absolutely'' not selling team

cws05champ
11-14-2012, 12:31 PM
The Jays' lineup, pending deal approval.

C - JPArrenciba/D'Arnaud/Buck
1B - Edwin Encarnacion/Lind
2B - Izturis
SS - Reyes
3B - Lawrie
LF - Bonifacio
CF - Rasmus
RF - Bautista
DH - Revolving Door

SP - Morrow
SP - Johnson
SP - Buerhle
SP - Romero
SP - Villanueva/Drabek/anyone/who cares


That's a pretty deep, solid team. They could still trade Buck and Rasmus to get more help. But they are better than the Orioles on paper. Whether they can beat out the Rays and Yanks is another story. At the minimum, they'll challenge for the WC.

Not to mention they could platoon Bonafacio and Rajai Davis in LF left vs right and get great production. Or have both in the OF in some game...with Davis in the 9 hole, Reyes 1, Bonafacio 2 it will gives teams fits with Encarnation, Bautista and Lawrie in the middle. Not to mention they could trade one of their young catchers now for some bullpen depth or closer. Solid, solid team.

DeadMoney
11-14-2012, 12:40 PM
Asking is one thing , getting his wish is another. 48M over the next 3 years may be a tough contract to move.

While this is true, he has some options. The hints of an early retirement have always been there for him. He's also made over $89M on his career and playing 1 more season will put him over $100M at almost 35 years old.

I wouldn't be too shocked if he elected to do one of a few different things. It's certainly possible that he could use the 'retirement card' now or even play a season in Toronto to see how it goes followed by using the 'retirement card' post-2013. The problem is, he might be better off using it now, because if he were to have a poor 2013, he'd have almost no leverage in that discussion. "Trade me (while eating some of my deal)," offers very little leverage if he plays out a bad 2013 season and they could pay nothing for him were he to retire. His window of opportunity for this option could close as time/seasons go on.

I do hope it works out for him because he was/is - by far - my favorite player to wear a White Sox uniform during my fandom, but he also made this bed...

ComiskeyBrewer
11-14-2012, 12:41 PM
Jon Heyman
Jeffrey Loria tells @CBSSports (https://twitter.com/CBSSports): "We finished in last place! Figure it out.'' http://cbsprt.co/TZTWFf (http://t.co/4216M5rb)

Loria calls finishing last "unacceptable.'' says, "we have to take a new course." also, he's "absolutely'' not selling team


:rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling:

Be scared Mets fans, be VERY scared.

WhiteSox5187
11-14-2012, 01:44 PM
This is a very good and very damning article about Loira and his pal Selig. These two guys are trying to kill another franchise.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/marlins-trade-a-baseball-tragedy-bud-selig-deserves-blame.html

Goose
11-14-2012, 02:16 PM
Man, this kind of makes me wish Ozzie hadn't gotten fired

Out of curiosity - can Miami force Ozzie to manage this team (after they fired him)? I would think that if they are still on the hook for all his contract, then they could say: "I changed my mind - come back and finish out your contract".

eriqjaffe
11-14-2012, 02:27 PM
Out of curiosity - can Miami force Ozzie to manage this team (after they fired him)? I would think that if they are still on the hook for all his contract, then they could say: "I changed my mind - come back and finish out your contract".I don't think that's how it works. The Marlins released Ozzie from his obligation, they can't re-obligate him without signing him to a new contract.

Goose
11-14-2012, 02:48 PM
This is a very good and very damning article about Loira and his pal Selig. These two guys are trying to kill another franchise.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/marlins-trade-a-baseball-tragedy-bud-selig-deserves-blame.html

Wow! great read!

skobabe8
11-14-2012, 02:50 PM
I was thinking the same thing, another excuse for the haters to pile on the guy yet again.

Give it a rest already.

Are you talking about Loria?

If so, the taxpayers/county might go after him legally. Would you blame them?

Chez
11-14-2012, 03:08 PM
I don't think that's how it works. The Marlins released Ozzie from his obligation, they can't re-obligate him without signing him to a new contract.

Unless there are specific contractual provisions to the contrary, so long as Ozzie cashes the Marlins' checks, he's still under contract and they could require him to manage again at any time during the duration of the contract. If Ozzie refused, he would be in breach of contract (and the Marlins wouldn't have to pay him anymore).

Rocky Soprano
11-14-2012, 03:14 PM
Are you talking about Loria?

If so, the taxpayers/county might go after him legally. Would you blame them?

No, he is talking about his main man Ozzie.
Ozzie could run over his dog on purpose and he would blame the dog for not getting out of Ozzie's way.

skobabe8
11-14-2012, 03:23 PM
No, he is talking about his main man Ozzie.
Ozzie could run over his dog on purpose and he would blame the dog for not getting out of Ozzie's way.

Oh OK. I went back through the thread but still wasn't sure.

skobabe8
11-14-2012, 03:25 PM
Unless there are specific contractual provisions to the contrary, so long as Ozzie cashes the Marlins' checks, he's still under contract and they could require him to manage again at any time during the duration of the contract. If Ozzie refused, he would be in breach of contract (and the Marlins wouldn't have to pay him anymore).

:?:

Are you sure? Has ANYONE ever done that?

Chez
11-14-2012, 03:44 PM
:?:

Are you sure? Has ANYONE ever done that?

Even though the Marlins fired him, if the Marlins stopped paying Ozzie, wouldn't they be in breach of contract? Just because the Marlins don't want Ozzie to manage their team, doesn't mean they couldn't ask Ozzie to live up to his end of the contract (like they are living up to their end by continuing him to pay him). And if he refused, they likely wouldn't have to pay him anymore. I'm not 100% certain because, like I said earlier, (1) there may be specific language in Ozzie's contract which addresses this very situation and (2) I'm not familiar with Florida contract law. But, like you said, just because Miami could do this; they never would!!

CPditka
11-14-2012, 03:44 PM
Found this intersting:
Miami Marlins: Hechavarria, not Escobar, to start at short in 2013 (http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_baseball_marlins/2012/11/miami-marlins-hechavarria-not-escobar-to-start-at-short-in-2013.html)


Looks like they will be moving Yunel if I had to guess.

http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_baseball_marlins/2012/11/miami-marlins-hechavarria-not-escobar-to-start-at-short-in-2013.html

WhiteSox5187
11-14-2012, 03:47 PM
I am watching MLB Network's "Hot Stove" and I have noticed that no one over there is criticizing Loira specifically. They are mentioning how much of a turn around this trade is for the organization, but no one is suggesting how bad this is for the game and whatever future for baseball is left in Florida. That is a bit disappointing because given Loira's history this sort of thing should have been seen and certainly seems to have the tacit approval of Selig.

I suppose I should add here that I am just mad that Selig allows this guy to still own a team and continue to ruin organizations.

Lip Man 1
11-14-2012, 04:37 PM
That's "Proud to be Your Bud" for ya! :D:

Lip

TheVulture
11-14-2012, 05:35 PM
Regarding Buehrle, even if he can demand a trade I don't think Toronto can find any takers without eating a big part of that contract. I love Burls, but not at $19M per year for the last two years of his deal.


Well, one team just traded for him. It'd be kind of hard to make the argument no one would trade for that contract under those conditions, I would think.

palehozenychicty
11-15-2012, 12:25 AM
While there is no denying the Marlins are a joke of a franchise, Ozzie Guillen may have completely ruined that team. They just never recovered from the Castro incident. He could not take the levels of talent they had and get them to function as a working unit.

It is amazing the fall out that those events had.

I think just signing Redmond would improve them immensely in 2013. But Loria is such a snake and has Selig as an enabler that he couldn't leave it alone.

HomeFish
11-15-2012, 06:02 AM
Well, one team just traded for him. It'd be kind of hard to make the argument no one would trade for that contract under those conditions, I would think.

The Marlins did send $4 million in cash considerations.

#1swisher
11-15-2012, 11:55 AM
Bob Nightengale
Selig says the #marlins (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23marlins&src=hash) trade is under review

Selig feels for the #marlins (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23marlins&src=hash) fans and will take everything in consideration before making decision

Lip Man 1
11-15-2012, 12:06 PM
Which means the decision is already been made and it's 'full speed ahead' to Toronto. :rolleyes:

That's just "Proud to be Your Bud" with his famous 'handwringing approach' to issues like this which he has no intention of stopping.

Lip

Domeshot17
11-15-2012, 01:44 PM
When is the last time a trade got voided by the commish? In all seriousness, people pay hundreds of millions of dollars to own these teams. They should have the right to do with them what they will. If the league has a problem beyond the traded players (such as Florida taking advantage of taxpayer dollars for the stadium) then they can move forward with trying to remove the owner/force to sell.

Owners answer to the fans. If the fans do not like a move, they will not show up. But its a real pandora's box to start veto'ing trades because one side won. Such a bad idea.

The ONLY time a trade should be veto'd is if 2 owners were colluding/conspiring together.

Chez
11-15-2012, 01:53 PM
When is the last time a trade got voided by the commish?



Didn't David Stern void the Chris Paul trade last season? In baseball, I don't think it has happened since Bowie Kuhn voided the A's trade of Joe Rudi and Rollie Fingers(?) back in the 70's.

Brian26
11-15-2012, 01:57 PM
When is the last time a trade got voided by the commish? In all seriousness, people pay hundreds of millions of dollars to own these teams. They should have the right to do with them what they will. If the league has a problem beyond the traded players (such as Florida taking advantage of taxpayer dollars for the stadium) then they can move forward with trying to remove the owner/force to sell.

Owners answer to the fans. If the fans do not like a move, they will not show up. But its a real pandora's box to start veto'ing trades because one side won. Such a bad idea.

The ONLY time a trade should be veto'd is if 2 owners were colluding/conspiring together.

I don't think it's a question about who won the trade. Honestly, Miami may have won the trade in the long run. They received some good young players.

My problem with the trade is that Miami just sent $160 million dollars of debt, based on my quick math, to the Blue Jays. This was the same problem I had with the Red Sox/Dodgers trade last year when Boston sent something like $250 million of debt to the Dodgers.

There are a lot of consequences to transactions as big as this. I had more of a problem with the Dodgers trade because Selig helped bail out McCourt last year, but the principle is the same.

Boondock Saint
11-15-2012, 02:01 PM
When is the last time a trade got voided by the commish? In all seriousness, people pay hundreds of millions of dollars to own these teams. They should have the right to do with them what they will. If the league has a problem beyond the traded players (such as Florida taking advantage of taxpayer dollars for the stadium) then they can move forward with trying to remove the owner/force to sell.

Owners answer to the fans. If the fans do not like a move, they will not show up. But its a real pandora's box to start veto'ing trades because one side won. Such a bad idea.

The ONLY time a trade should be veto'd is if 2 owners were colluding/conspiring together.

The problem is that Loria brought in nearly $200m worth of players to justify the taxpayer money funding the stadium, under the pretense that the Marlins weren't playing the small market game anymore, and were going to spend money to make the team a perennial contender. Then, as soon as that money came in, he sold off the players so he didn't have to pay them. He screwed the people out of nearly $500m, and when (not if, but when) he sells the team, he's going to make off with even more free money. Then he's going to take that money and (most likely) buy the Mets with it, just like he took the Expos money and bought the Marlins with it. He's already screwed millions of people, and Selig is letting it happen. AGAIN. And he's probably going to let it happen with the Mets, too.

dickallen15
11-15-2012, 02:03 PM
When is the last time a trade got voided by the commish? In all seriousness, people pay hundreds of millions of dollars to own these teams. They should have the right to do with them what they will. If the league has a problem beyond the traded players (such as Florida taking advantage of taxpayer dollars for the stadium) then they can move forward with trying to remove the owner/force to sell.

Owners answer to the fans. If the fans do not like a move, they will not show up. But its a real pandora's box to start veto'ing trades because one side won. Such a bad idea.

The ONLY time a trade should be veto'd is if 2 owners were colluding/conspiring together.
It wasn't a trade, but the commissioner nixed the White Sox adding Minnie Minoso to the roster in 1990.

Lip Man 1
11-15-2012, 02:36 PM
Phil Rogers at the Tribune site has a story where he spoke to Proud to be Your Bud and that he is 'probably' not going to stop the deal.

Lip

WhiteSox5187
11-15-2012, 02:55 PM
Phil Rogers at the Tribune site has a story where he spoke to Proud to be Your Bud and that he is 'probably' not going to stop the deal.

Lip

Friends don't do that to friends.

getonbckthr
11-15-2012, 03:33 PM
When is the last time a trade got voided by the commish? In all seriousness, people pay hundreds of millions of dollars to own these teams. They should have the right to do with them what they will. If the league has a problem beyond the traded players (such as Florida taking advantage of taxpayer dollars for the stadium) then they can move forward with trying to remove the owner/force to sell.

Owners answer to the fans. If the fans do not like a move, they will not show up. But its a real pandora's box to start veto'ing trades because one side won. Such a bad idea.

The ONLY time a trade should be veto'd is if 2 owners were colluding/conspiring together.

My problem is the amount of money each team gets from network deals his payroll will probably be well below that.

Domeshot17
11-15-2012, 04:03 PM
My problem is the amount of money each team gets from network deals his payroll will probably be well below that.

I don't disagree with what everyone is saying, but the mlb does not have a salary cap or floor. That said, Miami, if it does not increase payroll, will not be able to receive revenue sharing. In the next CBA maybe they increase this more, but nothing they did was "against the rules".

palehozenychicty
11-15-2012, 04:47 PM
When is the last time a trade got voided by the commish? In all seriousness, people pay hundreds of millions of dollars to own these teams. They should have the right to do with them what they will. If the league has a problem beyond the traded players (such as Florida taking advantage of taxpayer dollars for the stadium) then they can move forward with trying to remove the owner/force to sell.

Owners answer to the fans. If the fans do not like a move, they will not show up. But its a real pandora's box to start veto'ing trades because one side won. Such a bad idea.

The ONLY time a trade should be veto'd is if 2 owners were colluding/conspiring together.


They ain't showing up already. Will they break their Pro Player Stadium records too? :tongue:

WLL1855
11-15-2012, 09:46 PM
I don't disagree with what everyone is saying, but the mlb does not have a salary cap or floor. That said, Miami, if it does not increase payroll, will not be able to receive revenue sharing. In the next CBA maybe they increase this more, but nothing they did was "against the rules".

I'm kinda in agreement with the thinking here. God forbid I ever get selected to fill Bud's shoes. I would wield my authority like a bludgeon (and get summarily fired gloriously).

Frontman
11-19-2012, 01:56 PM
This gets even better,

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/11/19/report-marlins-broke-verbal-no-trade-agreements-with-buehrle-reyes/

I feel for Mark and his family, but next time get it in writing. He got hosed on a verbal promise, which is worthless.

doublem23
11-19-2012, 02:16 PM
I feel for Mark and his family, but next time get it in writing. He got hosed on a verbal promise, which is worthless.

Perhaps dealing with a loyal-to-a-fault owner in JR for so long left him unprepared for dealing with a snake like Loria.

:shrug:

palehosepub
11-19-2012, 02:48 PM
This gets even better,

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/11/19/report-marlins-broke-verbal-no-trade-agreements-with-buehrle-reyes/

I feel for Mark and his family, but next time get it in writing. He got hosed on a verbal promise, which is worthless.

Agreed, thats tough on his family but if you dont have it in writing you are at risk, especially dealing with a scoundel like Loria.

MB should get a good lawyer and void the contract and come back to Chicago.....

Domeshot17
11-19-2012, 03:38 PM
Buehrle is getting paid, he took the money over the team, he will still get his money. He seems like a nice guy but its hard to feel bad for him in this situation.

RF/DH#3
11-19-2012, 03:48 PM
Buehrle is getting paid, he took the money over the team, he will still get his money. He seems like a nice guy but its hard to feel bad for him in this situation.

Is there something in the Ten and Five Rule that could let Mark block the trade? Or would he have to be on the team that is trading him more then 5 Years?

DSpivack
11-19-2012, 03:55 PM
Is there something in the Ten and Five Rule that could let Mark block the trade? Or would he have to be on the team that is trading him more then 5 Years?

That's the 5 part of the rule, so no.

FWIW, Pujols wanted a no-trade clause when the Marlins were pursuing him; they refused.

Nellie_Fox
11-19-2012, 03:57 PM
He got hosed on a verbal promise, which is worthless.Not entirely. I'm not a trained attorney, nor do I play one on TV, but a contract is made when there is an offer and an acceptance for a consideration (did I get that right counselors?) He can try to argue that there was a verbal contract. He might not prevail, but there is precedence for the enforcement of verbal contracts.

From the web site of the Florida Bar Association:
A binding, legally enforceable contract can be in writing or oral (verbal). Depending on the nature of the transaction involved, certain types of contracts in Florida are required by law to be in writing in order to be enforceable. Generally other than those required by law to be in writing, verbal contracts are enforceable in Florida, especially in situations where one party has performed his or her obligations.

It may be that Mark's contract would be one required to be in writing, but verbal promises are not, in general, worthless.

DSpivack
11-19-2012, 04:06 PM
Not entirely. I'm not a trained attorney, nor do I play one on TV, but a contract is made when there is an offer and an acceptance for a consideration (did I get that right counselors?) He can try to argue that there was a verbal contract. He might not prevail, but there is precedence for the enforcement of verbal contracts.

From the web site of the Florida Bar Association:
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It may be that Mark's contract would be one required to be in writing, but verbal promises are not, in general, worthless.

Wouldn't that depend on what's in the collective bargaining agreement?

Nellie_Fox
11-19-2012, 04:29 PM
Wouldn't that depend on what's in the collective bargaining agreement?Perhaps; I don't know. My point was simply that it's not correct to say that promises are worthless. They can be, and are, enforced in some circumstances.

DumpJerry
11-19-2012, 04:55 PM
I feel for Mark and his family, but next time get it in writing. He got hosed on a verbal promise, which is worthless.

Not entirely. I'm not a trained attorney, nor do I play one on TV, but a contract is made when there is an offer and an acceptance for a consideration (did I get that right counselors?) He can try to argue that there was a verbal contract. He might not prevail, but there is precedence for the enforcement of verbal contracts.

It may be that Mark's contract would be one required to be in writing, but verbal promises are not, in general, worthless.
Verbal promises are not "worthless." There are some types of contracts which must be in writing per the Statute of Frauds, but playing baseball is not one of those. The type of contracts that have to be written can be summed up using the acronym MYLEGS.
M=Marriage. This is when you marry someone for the exchange of something of value like a dowery or a pre-nup agreement.
Y= Year. This is for services that cannot be performed within one year of the agreement (today I agree to drive you to New York City for your son's graduation in 2015 in exchange for you paying me $20,000 upon arrival in NYC).
L=Land. Any transfer in an interest in land must be in writing.
E=Executor. This is the agreement for an Executor of a will or estate to be compensated.
G=Goods. A contract for the sale of goods over a certain price must be in writing.
S=Surety. You become a surety if you are to act as the guarantor for a third party's debts or other obligations.

The Parol Evidence Rule dictates whether or not evidence can be admitted of an alleged breach of a verbal agreement which does not appear in the written instrument. If there is a Scope Clause in the contract, then any verbal promises made which are not reduced to writing in the contract are out the window. A Scope Clause states that the written contract constituted the entirety of the agreement the parties reached and any promises made outside what is written is not enforceable.

If Buehrle's contract does not have a Scope Clause, then he could conceivably sue, but it would be very difficult for him to get in evidence of a verbal agreement to not trade him. Also, I seriously doubt there isn't a Scope Clause in the contract.

Noneck
11-19-2012, 07:11 PM
What happens if Miami denies they ever said that?

Buerhle seems to be screwed but thats the price you pay for taking long green over a no trade clause.

DumpJerry
11-19-2012, 07:14 PM
What happens if Miami denies they ever said that?

Buerhle seems to be screwed but thats the price you pay for taking long green over a no trade clause.
Miami always says publicly that they don't do NTCs, so I think this is just a rumor about Burl's agreement.

Frontman
11-19-2012, 07:15 PM
Worthless might be the wrong word, but Loria and the Marlins can claim they never promised such a thing, and it becomes a he said/she said situation.

The Marlins can even say, "If we wanted to offer Mark a no-trade clause, wouldn't of made more sense for us to put it in writing?"

Frontman
11-19-2012, 07:16 PM
Buehrle is getting paid, he took the money over the team, he will still get his money. He seems like a nice guy but its hard to feel bad for him in this situation.

How much a person gets paid versus that person having an understanding that gets ignored isn't the same thing at all. No, I don't feel horrid over Mark and his millions, but I can feel for him and his family getting displaced.

Domeshot17
11-19-2012, 07:42 PM
How much a person gets paid versus that person having an understanding that gets ignored isn't the same thing at all. No, I don't feel horrid over Mark and his millions, but I can feel for him and his family getting displaced.

But its just willful ignorance if he really thought they surely would not trade him.

Basically Buehrle came to a crossroad where he had 2 choices.

Choice A - Stay with the team you know will never trade you for less money

Choice B - Make far more money for a team that is incredibly volatile and has always blown it up after doing either really good or really bad

I do feel for him and his family that they had an expectation to stay there, but he works in an industry with incredible relocation and turnover rates. Choice A and Choice B each had a consequence.

Noneck
11-19-2012, 07:57 PM
Choice A - Stay with the team you know will never trade you for less money



Actually because of of the 10/5 clause they couldnt trade him without his approval.

He must have weighed money vs. relocation, he has an agent and also appears to be a smart guy, it is was it is now.

DumpJerry
11-19-2012, 08:36 PM
How do we know Buehrle did not waive his NTC if there is one?

DSpivack
11-19-2012, 08:40 PM
How do we know Buehrle did not waive his NTC if there is one?

There isn't one, and Miami doesn't give them out.

Frater Perdurabo
11-19-2012, 08:40 PM
I don't recall that the Sox even offered him a contract a year ago.

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-19-2012, 08:56 PM
I don't recall that the Sox even offered him a contract a year ago.

They didn't. JR told him to take the money Miami was offering him.

MUsoxfan
11-19-2012, 09:02 PM
How do we know Buehrle did not waive his NTC if there is one?

Because he wouldn't waive a NTC that made his family miserable

TheVulture
11-19-2012, 09:44 PM
I don't see the big deal about the 160 million dollars. The Yankees took on more than that just for Rodriguez. Toronto got multiple all star caliber players signed to multiple years, it's not like they got a bunch of broken down junk.

Nellie_Fox
11-20-2012, 12:11 AM
Because he wouldn't waive a NTC that made his family miserableAnd he can't take his dogs. I'm a huge dog person, and moving without them would be almost like moving without my kids. If I had his money, I'd probably retire before I'd report.

TDog
11-20-2012, 02:47 PM
And he can't take his dogs. I'm a huge dog person, and moving without them would be almost like moving without my kids. If I had his money, I'd probably retire before I'd report.

Players sometimes refuse to report after being traded, but it's very rare. The Dodgers traded Jackie Robinson to the Giants, and Robinson decided he would rather retire than play for the Giants. Curt Flood refused to report to the Phillies and sued baseball. The White Sox traded Dick Allen to the Braves for a player to be named later. Allen didn't want to play for the Braves (Chicago media at one point reported that Allen actually could end up the player to be named later), and the Braves swinged a deal with the Phillies. The story goes that Ed Farmer, early in his career, was involved in a three-way deal that sent him to the Yankees and pretty much said he wasn't going to play for the Yankees. Two days after the trade, his contract was sold to the Phillies. Farmer certainly would have refused to play for the Blue Jays, judging from his views on Canada that he has shared during Sox games.

I was surprised to see Buehrle didn't have a no-trade clause in his contract, considering he or his agent or both worked out language in his last White Sox contract that would have made him impossible to trade. And if he didn't have a no-trade clause, I would have expected some sort trade-impediment clause similar to what he had with the Sox.

The money was important enough to the Buehrle family that they agreed to go to Miami. It's easy for fans to see this as a consequence and perhaps even gloat over his situation.

Maybe the Blue Jays will work out a deal with the Cardinals. The problem is that the Blue Jays really don't have any incentive to pick up a portion of Buehrle's contract.

DumpJerry
11-20-2012, 03:43 PM
I was surprised to see Buehrle didn't have a no-trade clause in his contract, considering he or his agent or both worked out language in his last White Sox contract that would have made him impossible to trade. And if he didn't have a no-trade clause, I would have expected some sort trade-impediment clause similar to what he had with the Sox.
This is why they paid him an insane amount of money. It is in lieu of a NTC. The White Sox could not do the same thing because he had 5/10 rights with us.

WLL1855
11-20-2012, 06:45 PM
And he can't take his dogs. I'm a huge dog person, and moving without them would be almost like moving without my kids. If I had his money, I'd probably retire before I'd report.

He could always live on the US side of Niagra Falls and commute, unless NY has an law against pit bulls as well.

Edit: The car ride would be a bit lengthy. He's a rich man. Hire out a helicopter shuttle for a few months.

Thome25
11-21-2012, 12:15 PM
Well at least it's better than that God-awful Marlins Uniform:

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j358/Philip_Amodei/BuehrleBlueJays.jpg

thomas35forever
11-21-2012, 02:49 PM
Mark voices his displeasure:
http://www.csnchicago.com/baseball-chicago-whitesox/whitesox-talk/Buehrle-I-was-lied-to?blockID=804729&feedID=10338&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

Lip Man 1
11-21-2012, 04:43 PM
This is very out of character for him. Something must have happened for him to react like this.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/sfl-agent-for-mark-buehrle-issues-a-statement-directed-at-miami-marlins-20121121,0,2610341.story

Lip

DonnieDarko
11-21-2012, 06:09 PM
This is very out of character for him. Something must have happened for him to react like this.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/sfl-agent-for-mark-buehrle-issues-a-statement-directed-at-miami-marlins-20121121,0,2610341.story

Lip

Yeah, he's pissed because he placed his trust in someone and they betrayed it by lying to him. So it makes sense that he'd react like this.

Frontman
11-21-2012, 08:19 PM
Yeah, he's pissed because he placed his trust in someone and they betrayed it by lying to him. So it makes sense that he'd react like this.

Mark comes across as a very straight forward guy. Probably didn't take into consideration he made a deal with the devil known as Loria.....

Irishsox1
11-22-2012, 12:09 AM
Mark needs to walk up to the mirror and start yelling at the person who chose to sign that contract with Loria and the Marlins.

Of course they lied but the way the deal was so back ended everyone knew he was going to get traded it was either going to be after year 1 or year 2. Mark is set to make $18 M in 2014 and $19 M in 2015.

Here's what Mark just figured out the hard way: Stability is worth more than a couple of million dollars. Second, he's going to get traded at least 1 more time before that contact is up. Guessing Buherle to the Yankees or Dodgers after this year.

Mr. Jinx
11-22-2012, 12:35 AM
Mark needs to walk up to the mirror and start yelling at the person who chose to sign that contract with Loria and the Marlins.

Of course they lied but the way the deal was so back ended everyone knew he was going to get traded it was either going to be after year 1 or year 2. Mark is set to make $18 M in 2014 and $19 M in 2015.

Here's what Mark just figured out the hard way: Stability is worth more than a couple of million dollars. Second, he's going to get traded at least 1 more time before that contact is up. Guessing Buherle to the Yankees or Dodgers after this year.

Exactly. I won't fault a guy one bit for grabbing as much cash as he can to make sure that himself, his children, and his children's children will never have to work if they don't want to, but there's consequences for every decision you make.

I would have absolutely loved to continue working for the little company I worked for during college. However, I made a conscious decision to leave them for a larger firm that paid me significantly more. Due to that, I no longer have as much latitude to take off whenever I want, do what I want, etc, but I also am paid more to give up these things. You have to pick one.

doublem23
11-22-2012, 12:50 AM
:violin:

wassagstdu
11-23-2012, 05:27 PM
... If I had his money, I'd probably retire before I'd report.

If Buehrle were to announce his retirement, how long would he have to wait to come out of retirement and sign with the Sox -- or the Cards?

Mr. Jinx
11-23-2012, 06:52 PM
If Buehrle were to announce his retirement, how long would he have to wait to come out of retirement and sign with the Sox -- or the Cards?

I would think in the absence of an agreement/buyout with Miami he would not be allowed to play for any other team should he try to come back. He can grab lunch with Barry Sanders to see how well that turned out.

Nellie_Fox
11-24-2012, 12:01 AM
If Buehrle were to announce his retirement, how long would he have to wait to come out of retirement and sign with the Sox -- or the Cards?Not until he got released or the term of his current contract expired.

Mr. Jinx
11-24-2012, 07:50 AM
Not until he got released or the term of his current contract expired.

Wait, so say you had a 2 year contract starting in 2013. In 2014 could you just not show up, not get paid, and be a free agent again in 2015 since the term expired?

DSpivack
11-24-2012, 11:55 AM
Wait, so say you had a 2 year contract starting in 2013. In 2014 could you just not show up, not get paid, and be a free agent again in 2015 since the term expired?

You'd be a free agent, anyway, what's the difference?

Lip Man 1
11-24-2012, 12:20 PM
I believe MLB has something along the lines of a "restricted" list which makes it impossible for another team to just step in and sign a player who refuses to report to a new team in a trade.

If said player doesn't report and if the 'holdout' goes long enough, the commissioner can step in and assign another player to complete the trade.

It happened to the Sox once before the 1970 season if memory serves. That's how they got Jerry "Wheat Germ Kid" Janeski.

Lip

Mr. Jinx
11-24-2012, 12:50 PM
You'd be a free agent, anyway, what's the difference?

In one case you would play for a team in 2014 you didn't want to play on, in the other case you wouldn't and would just sit at home.

TDog
11-24-2012, 12:57 PM
I believe MLB has something along the lines of a "restricted" list which makes it impossible for another team to just step in and sign a player who refuses to report to a new team in a trade.

If said player doesn't report and if the 'holdout' goes long enough, the commissioner can step in and assign another player to complete the trade.

It happened to the Sox once before the 1970 season if memory serves. That's how they got Jerry "Wheat Germ Kid" Janeski.

Lip

A minor league pitcher by the name of Billy Farmer didn't want to go to the White Sox for the 1970 season. He sayted in the Boston system, and didn't pitch professionally after 1970, never making it up to the Red Sox. Jerry Janeski that year was the White Sox No. 3 starter, which says more about the 1970 White Sox than it does about Janeski's pitching prowess. Janeski started 35 games for the 1970 Sox, but only started 11 more after he was traded to the Senators, where he was teammates with Curt Flood in 1971. Flood had refused to report to the Phillies who traded him to the Senators after sitting out a year. While the Phillies retained the rights to Flood, Commissioner Bowie Kuhn awarded the Phillies a minor league pitcher and Willie Montanez, who was second in the NL Rookie of the Year vote in 1971. I don't know if "Willie the Phillie" had been the Cardinals top prospect and Flood's heir apparent, but all of that happened a very long time ago. There have strikes and lockouts and many changes to the collective bargaining agreement since.

Teams generally deal with players who refuse to report before it goes to the commissioner. They usually work out out deals themselves, as was the case with Ed Farmer a few years after the Billy Farmer thing. I don't know what protections, if any, the current CBA afford Mark Buehrle. The question isn't simply a matter of contract law, but contract law in the context of the CBA. Still, with Buehrle's contract, I don't know how easy it would be for the Blue Jays to deal him to another team.

Funny, though, that when Buehrle broke in with the Sox in 2000, pitching out of the bullpen, the southpaw ace of the staff was Mike Sirotka. The Blue Jays made a deal for Sirotka, paving the way for Buehrle to become the southpaw ace of the Sox, but Sirotka, of course, never appeared in a regular season game for the Blue Jays.

Nellie_Fox
11-25-2012, 12:55 AM
Wait, so say you had a 2 year contract starting in 2013. In 2014 could you just not show up, not get paid, and be a free agent again in 2015 since the term expired?I obviously don't know the details of Buehrle's contract. It might be that the Jays could demand "specific performance" or else sue for damages. But he doesn't spend the rest of his life in servitude until he fulfills that contract otherwise.

chicagowhitesox1
11-25-2012, 10:58 AM
Players sometimes refuse to report after being traded, but it's very rare. The Dodgers traded Jackie Robinson to the Giants, and Robinson decided he would rather retire than play for the Giants. Curt Flood refused to report to the Phillies and sued baseball. The White Sox traded Dick Allen to the Braves for a player to be named later. Allen didn't want to play for the Braves (Chicago media at one point reported that Allen actually could end up the player to be named later), and the Braves swinged a deal with the Phillies. The story goes that Ed Farmer, early in his career, was involved in a three-way deal that sent him to the Yankees and pretty much said he wasn't going to play for the Yankees. Two days after the trade, his contract was sold to the Phillies. Farmer certainly would have refused to play for the Blue Jays, judging from his views on Canada that he has shared during Sox games.

I was surprised to see Buehrle didn't have a no-trade clause in his contract, considering he or his agent or both worked out language in his last White Sox contract that would have made him impossible to trade. And if he didn't have a no-trade clause, I would have expected some sort trade-impediment clause similar to what he had with the Sox.

The money was important enough to the Buehrle family that they agreed to go to Miami. It's easy for fans to see this as a consequence and perhaps even gloat over his situation.

Maybe the Blue Jays will work out a deal with the Cardinals. The problem is that the Blue Jays really don't have any incentive to pick up a portion of Buehrle's contract.

Jackie Robinson would have played for the Giants. He retired months before the trade and didn't make it public due to he promised a young journalist exclusive rights for when he decided to go public. He wrote a letter to the Giants admitting he would love to play for them. He never got along with O'Malley, Campanella or Newcombe either so he woulda loved to beat those three. O'Malley wanted him gone a year earlier but was talked into keeping him. This whole loyalty thing towards Brooklyn was created by his wife.

cards press box
11-25-2012, 11:42 AM
Bob Nightengale
The #Marlins (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Marlins&src=hash) are letting teams know that virtually everyone is available on trade market, and plenty of teams are calling.

Stanton is staying.

If Giancarlo Stanton were available, should the Sox make an offer for him? If so, what would it take to bring him to the South Side?

TDog
11-25-2012, 01:23 PM
Jackie Robinson would have played for the Giants. He retired months before the trade and didn't make it public due to he promised a young journalist exclusive rights for when he decided to go public. He wrote a letter to the Giants admitting he would love to play for them. He never got along with O'Malley, Campanella or Newcombe either so he woulda loved to beat those three. O'Malley wanted him gone a year earlier but was talked into keeping him. This whole loyalty thing towards Brooklyn was created by his wife.

You are probably right. The Giants certainly were a team that embraced integration. The version I have always heard is part Dodgers-fan party line. My father grew up a big Dodgers fan in New Jersey, and I gave him a copy of the Jackie Robinson autobiography for Chriistmas the year it came out, about the time of his death, but I don't remember anything contradicting his wife's story about bleeding Dodger Blue and hating the Giants, which, frankly, wasn't what I initially believed until my father shared with me his Jackie Robinson mythology.

chicagowhitesox1
11-25-2012, 02:10 PM
You are probably right. The Giants certainly were a team that embraced integration. The version I have always heard is part Dodgers-fan party line. My father grew up a big Dodgers fan in New Jersey, and I gave him a copy of the Jackie Robinson autobiography for Chriistmas the year it came out, about the time of his death, but I don't remember anything contradicting his wife's story about bleeding Dodger Blue and hating the Giants, which, frankly, wasn't what I initially believed until my father shared with me his Jackie Robinson mythology.

I'm looking forward to the new movie with Harrison Ford although after viewing the trailer I have my doubts on it. I wish Hollywood wouldn't make movies about players like Ruth, Cobb and hopefully not the Jackie Robinson (42) movie so one sided. I'm curious on which players they will call out for being racist and the whole PeeWee Reese hug never happened but I guarantee they will have that in the movie. I think the movie will end up being a recruitment type of movie to try and get younger African Americans involved in baseball again.

WhiteSox5187
11-25-2012, 04:52 PM
I'm looking forward to the new movie with Harrison Ford although after viewing the trailer I have my doubts on it. I wish Hollywood wouldn't make movies about players like Ruth, Cobb and hopefully not the Jackie Robinson (42) movie so one sided. I'm curious on which players they will call out for being racist and the whole PeeWee Reese hug never happened but I guarantee they will have that in the movie. I think the movie will end up being a recruitment type of movie to try and get younger African Americans involved in baseball again.

I think there is overwhelming evidence that it did in fact happen. Jackie even mentioned it happening in an article written around 1953. There is some question as to when it happened. The folklore would say it occurred in Cincinnati in 1947 but Robinson and others recall it happening in Boston in 1948. There is SOME evidence for it happening in 1947 though. This is a good article about it:
http://www.villagevoice.com/2007-04-24/news/debunkers-strike-out/

chicagowhitesox1
11-25-2012, 05:45 PM
I think there is overwhelming evidence that it did in fact happen. Jackie even mentioned it happening in an article written around 1953. There is some question as to when it happened. The folklore would say it occurred in Cincinnati in 1947 but Robinson and others recall it happening in Boston in 1948. There is SOME evidence for it happening in 1947 though. This is a good article about it:
http://www.villagevoice.com/2007-04-24/news/debunkers-strike-out/

Well I shouldn't have said it never happened because it could have but really Eddie Stanky was the one who first came to accept Robinson as a teammate, and he's the one who is actually known for putting his arm around Robinson during the 1947 season. I think alot of people use Reese for this story because he was alot more popular with writers and fans. Pee Wee Reese never recalled this even happened but they did become close during the 1948 season and Reese was well known to pat teammates on their backs too. Actually what Eddie Stanky did was far more impressive due to he was from the deep south and lived there during the off season so for a deepsoutherner in 1947 to do that took alot of guts. I guess it is one of those things like the Ruth called shot which nobody will ever really know for sure.

WhiteSox5187
11-25-2012, 06:59 PM
Well I shouldn't have said it never happened because it could have but really Eddie Stanky was the one who first came to accept Robinson as a teammate, and he's the one who is actually known for putting his arm around Robinson during the 1947 season. I think alot of people use Reese for this story because he was alot more popular with writers and fans. Pee Wee Reese never recalled this even happened but they did become close during the 1948 season and Reese was well known to pat teammates on their backs too. Actually what Eddie Stanky did was far more impressive due to he was from the deep south and lived there during the off season so for a deepsoutherner in 1947 to do that took alot of guts. I guess it is one of those things like the Ruth called shot which nobody will ever really know for sure.

Stanky helped matters but Reese accepted Robinson pretty quickly. At the end of Robinson's first season in the minors in 1946 a sports writer asked Reese how he felt about Robinson potentially coming to the majors and maybe even taking Reese's spot at shortstop and Reese said "If he is better than me then he is entitled to my spot." Durocher also played a big role in the acceptance of Robinson in spring training by quashing the petition to not allow Robinson to play. Durocher pretty much said "He's coming, get used to it. Oh, he will also help us win a pennant and get you guys a bonus."

Mr. Jinx
11-25-2012, 07:05 PM
If Giancarlo Stanton were available, should the Sox make an offer for him? If so, what would it take to bring him to the South Side?

Start with Sale and keep going from there. The Sox have no chance of trading for a guy like that.

chicagowhitesox1
11-25-2012, 07:56 PM
Stanky helped matters but Reese accepted Robinson pretty quickly. At the end of Robinson's first season in the minors in 1946 a sports writer asked Reese how he felt about Robinson potentially coming to the majors and maybe even taking Reese's spot at shortstop and Reese said "If he is better than me then he is entitled to my spot." Durocher also played a big role in the acceptance of Robinson in spring training by quashing the petition to not allow Robinson to play. Durocher pretty much said "He's coming, get used to it. Oh, he will also help us win a pennant and get you guys a bonus."

Thats not as true as it may seem. Reese admitted in the 1950's that it took him awhile to warm up to Robinson. He didn't hate him, like some teammates, but Reese didn't go out of his way to befriend him early on either. Around 1949, Reese and Robinson genuinely started becoming friends and were very close late in life. But not in 1947 when this hug may have taken place. Which I don't believe it did.

When Reese was later interviewed about Robinsons first year he made a point of saying publicy-even at least once to Robinsons face-that he didn't go out of his way to treat Jackie differently. Robinson respected Reese for being honest about this.

Eddie Stanky deff was looking out for Robinson but I don't really know what to think about that because 1947 was the year Durocher was suspended and I think Durocher told Stanky to look out for Robinson due to Stanky was Durochers right hand man. But Stanky was very vocal about blacks in baseball so unless he had a change of heart, I think Durocher persuaded Stanky to try and make things easier for Robinson.

Durocher did say that if anyone didn't like having Robinson on the team they would be gone and Stanky was gone in 1949. I really don't know why Stanky left but I kinda feel it was because of Robinson.

I think in this new movie Hollywood will show that the Dodger players treated him bad when Robinson first joined the team but will end up showing that the Dodgers banded around Robinson in 1947 which isn't the case at all.