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Lip Man 1
11-08-2012, 11:09 PM
Sources say four names being looked at, Beckham, DeAza, Floyd and Viciendo.

Surprised by Beckham and Dayan.

http://www.csnchicago.com/baseball-chicago-whitesox/whitesox-talk/Four-names-emerge-as-White-Sox-trade-can?blockID=799623&feedID=9399

Lip

KyWhiSoxFan
11-08-2012, 11:28 PM
Sources say four names being looked at, Beckham, DeAza, Floyd and Viciendo.

Surprised by Beckham and Dayan.

http://www.csnchicago.com/baseball-chicago-whitesox/whitesox-talk/Four-names-emerge-as-White-Sox-trade-can?blockID=799623&feedID=9399

Lip

If true about Beckham, I think it says a lot about what they think of Sanchez.

Noneck
11-09-2012, 12:10 AM
It makes sense. 3 are cheap and Floyd is a rental type. The 3 probably have more trade value than 90% of the roster because they arent making much.

gr8mexico
11-09-2012, 12:21 AM
Alex Rios name should be included to that list

Noneck
11-09-2012, 12:27 AM
Alex Rios name should be included to that list

His worth is probably less than any of the 3, dont know about Floyd.

DSpivack
11-09-2012, 01:11 AM
Does Beckham have much value at this point?

Noneck
11-09-2012, 01:13 AM
Does Beckham have much value at this point?


More than most on Sox, it appears the Sox have very little value on their roster. Sale of course, then the closer I guess, after that Im thinking slim pickens.

RCWHITESOX
11-09-2012, 02:26 AM
More than most on Sox, it appears the Sox have very little value on their roster. Sale of course, then the closer I guess, after that Im thinking slim pickens.

I disagree I am sure that A.Reed, A.Ramirez, DeAza, Tank, Santiago, Flowers, Floyd, amongst others have value. All teams are out their ready to spend money on the free agent market and I have to believe even Dunn and Rios have value as they only have two years left on their contracts.

dickallen15
11-09-2012, 06:31 AM
I disagree I am sure that A.Reed, A.Ramirez, DeAza, Tank, Santiago, Flowers, Floyd, amongst others have value. All teams are out their ready to spend money on the free agent market and I have to believe even Dunn and Rios have value as they only have two years left on their contracts.

I read where Josh Willingham, who is owed less,than half what Dunn is owed, might be able to fetch a #4 starter. I don"t know about Rios, but Dunn has no value.

SBSoxFan
11-09-2012, 06:49 AM
If true about Beckham, I think it says a lot about what they think of Sanchez.

I heard on the Score yesterday morning that Sanchez and, gulp, Viciedo were 3B options.

russ99
11-09-2012, 09:53 AM
Sources say four names being looked at, Beckham, DeAza, Floyd and Viciendo.

Surprised by Beckham and Dayan.

http://www.csnchicago.com/baseball-chicago-whitesox/whitesox-talk/Four-names-emerge-as-White-Sox-trade-can?blockID=799623&feedID=9399

Lip

I'm not, both were underwhelming at the plate, and are getting substantial raises the next few years yet still have enough potential to interest other teams.
Especially Dayan, since power potential is like gold on the trade market. Remember all those crazy Willy Mo Pena rumors a few years back?

I'm more surprised by De Aza. Seemed to me like he's locked up an outfield spot the next few years. Good leadoff guys are hard to find.

I hope Thornton ends up on that list too.

#1swisher
11-09-2012, 10:01 AM
Mods, please merger with the thread Lip started in Sox Clubhouse. Thank you.
Dan Hayes
Note on Alex Rios: execs not certain he's available but say would be easier to move his salary after 2012.

http://www.csnchicago.com/baseball-chicago-whitesox/whitesox-talk/Four-names-emerge-as-White-Sox-trade-can?blockID=799623&feedID=10338

Rival team executives believe outfielder Alex Rios’ contract --- which guarantees him $26 million through 2014 and includes a $13.5 million option for 2015 --- would be much easier to move after he rebounded in 2012. Neither is certain the White Sox have made Rios available, however.
They believe the White Sox are open to trades of second baseman Gordon Beckham, outfielders Alejandro De Aza and Dayan Viciedo and starting pitcher Gavin Floyd.

Hahn spent the first two days of the general manager meetings in exploratory mode.

doublem23
11-09-2012, 10:18 AM
I read where Josh Willingham, who is owed less,than half what Dunn is owed, might be able to fetch a #4 starter. I don"t know about Rios, but Dunn has no value.

Willingham is also older and half the power hitter Dunn is.

Domeshot17
11-09-2012, 10:54 AM
I disagree I am sure that A.Reed, A.Ramirez, DeAza, Tank, Santiago, Flowers, Floyd, amongst others have value. All teams are out their ready to spend money on the free agent market and I have to believe even Dunn and Rios have value as they only have two years left on their contracts.

They just don't. Reed was a closer with an ERA near 5 last year and was not showing the blazing fastball he had in the minors. His value is not very high right now.

Alexei wasn't that good last year. He has nice range, a good arm that is not always on target, makes dumb mistakes sometimes, isn't really a base stealer, had a power decline etc. His value is probably the lowest of all time right now especially given the fact he is not young

DeAza has value, Vicideo has some value although it isn't extremely high either (big power, no patience), Santiago was up and down, but no one knows what he is, maybe a starter, maybe a middle reliever, maybe a loogy.

Flowers is another guy with value at a supreme low. He is no longer a top prospect, he is now a back up C that did not hit well and had a problem catching pop ups.

Gavin has value but it has to be the right trade. I read somewhere a suggestion of Floyd and a prospect for Moustakas. I would be down with that!

.500 teams generally are not loaded with a bunch of high trade value guys. If they were, they would not be a .500 team.

dickallen15
11-09-2012, 11:46 AM
Willingham is also older and half the power hitter Dunn is.
Might want to check the second part again. His OPS was almost 100 points higher and he is $8 million a year cheaper. As for the age gap, it is a whole 7 months.

voodoochile
11-09-2012, 11:49 AM
Just to be picky here, Viciedo is still young and just coming off his first full season in the majors. He will be 24 this coming season and slugged .444 last year. I expect that number as well as his BA to rise. He's never going to be Frank Thomas but he could be a guy who hits .250-270 with 35 HR pretty easily. That's worth something even if he does strike out a lot and doesn't walk much.

palehosepub
11-09-2012, 12:05 PM
I am surprised by the inclusion of Vicideo. He is 23, played one full season and still has a lot of potential / ceiling. I would think you have to build around a young core and I would include DV, Sale, and a few of the young pitchers (Quintanna, Jones, Reed maybe Santiago).

I agree his plate discipline is not where it should be but I would take the bet he can improve because he still has developing power.

I believe we would come to regret a trade of Viciedo.

TaylorStSox
11-09-2012, 12:24 PM
To say Viciedo had an underwhelming year at the plate is laughable. 23 year old rookies with those numbers don't grow on trees anymore.

Domeshot17
11-09-2012, 12:30 PM
To say Viciedo had an underwhelming year at the plate is laughable. 23 year old rookies with those numbers don't grow on trees anymore.

It isn't so much the numbers as it is projectability. His power is great, his hands are great and his swing is VIOLENT. But he doesn't project to be a high OBP guy, which limits any likelyhood of being a .850+ OPS guy, plus his strike outs. I personally think he could be an awesome 5th or 6th hitter, but I don't think he is going to have the discipline to hit 3 or 4. Great complimentary piece but never part of a great core.

TaylorStSox
11-09-2012, 01:02 PM
It isn't so much the numbers as it is projectability. His power is great, his hands are great and his swing is VIOLENT. But he doesn't project to be a high OBP guy, which limits any likelyhood of being a .850+ OPS guy, plus his strike outs. I personally think he could be an awesome 5th or 6th hitter, but I don't think he is going to have the discipline to hit 3 or 4. Great complimentary piece but never part of a great core.

I agree. I do think he'll develop more patience though. He has a history of doing so. You just don't turn away a guy with those tools who's already a pretty good player, despite being relatively early in his development.

palehozenychicty
11-09-2012, 02:37 PM
Just to be picky here, Viciedo is still young and just coming off his first full season in the majors. He will be 24 this coming season and slugged .444 last year. I expect that number as well as his BA to rise. He's never going to be Frank Thomas but he could be a guy who hits .250-270 with 35 HR pretty easily. That's worth something even if he does strike out a lot and doesn't walk much.

I agree. Viciedo should be kept around. He'll get better and provide value at a good price point. This is even with arbi raises.

Foulke You
11-09-2012, 04:07 PM
Might want to check the second part again. His OPS was almost 100 points higher and he is $8 million a year cheaper. As for the age gap, it is a whole 7 months.
Last year was a career year for Willingham in almost every category. Dunn has been a far better power hitter throughout his career.

TheVulture
11-09-2012, 04:16 PM
Last year was a career year for Willingham in almost every category. Dunn has been a far better power hitter throughout his career.

As much as I'd like to see Dunn moved, outside of his first 51 games this year, Dunn has put up a line of .174/.298/.345 since joining the Sox. Willingham would be much easier to trade, I doubt anyone would be interested in Dunn. He's been god awful.

doublem23
11-09-2012, 04:58 PM
Might want to check the second part again. His OPS was almost 100 points higher and he is $8 million a year cheaper. As for the age gap, it is a whole 7 months.

Wow, 1 whole year in a career of ****tiness.

DickAllen72
11-09-2012, 05:00 PM
Does Beckham have much value at this point?
Sox would be better off keeping him as their utility infielder unless some team wants to overpay for him.

dickallen15
11-09-2012, 05:21 PM
Wow, 1 whole year in a career of ****tiness.

For a guy who critiques posts as much as you do, you should knowhe has had 2 pretty good years in a row, while Dunn's numbers the last 2 years haven't been good. There is no way a team would find Dunn more attractive at $30 million than Willingham for $14 million the next 2 years. I know you will have some smart ass response, but you are wrong. Willingham has a lifetime .845 OPS,and has never had a season with as low of an OPS Dunn put up this year during his career when he has made at least 30 plate appearances.,

#1swisher
11-09-2012, 05:44 PM
Comcast SportsNet
No secret about it, WhiteSox (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23WhiteSox&src=hash) want to lock up Kevin Youkilis. Story from @DanHayesCSN (https://twitter.com/DanHayesCSN). http://cmcst.sn/aabmU2 (http://t.co/im7ZXmp4)

Hahn plans to continue discussions with Youkilis’ agent, Joe Bick, as well as further explore potential trades.

DonnieDarko
11-09-2012, 06:09 PM
Comcast SportsNet
No secret about it, WhiteSox (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23WhiteSox&src=hash) want to lock up Kevin Youkilis. Story from @DanHayesCSN (https://twitter.com/DanHayesCSN). http://cmcst.sn/aabmU2 (http://t.co/im7ZXmp4)

Hahn plans to continue discussions with Youkilis’ agent, Joe Bick, as well as further explore potential trades.

Considering the 3B free agent market and the lack of a good 3B on the farm, it's no wonder Hahn is trying to sign Youkilis.

Now if only Pierzynski could be locked up...

Foulke You
11-09-2012, 06:20 PM
Considering the 3B free agent market and the lack of a good 3B on the farm, it's no wonder Hahn is trying to sign Youkilis.

If they strike out on bringing Youk back, I wouldn't be surprised if Hahn tried to pry Chase Headley loose from the Padres. Also, if the Sox lose out on AJ, they will need another left handed stick in that lineup too. Headley would fill both 3B and the left handed stick we need. The Padres are also a team we have dealt with many times in recent years. The Giants and Dodgers seem poised to dominate that division for the next few years so it would make sense for the Padres to listen to trade offers for Chase. I've read recently that Padres management doesn't "envision" trading Headley but they also haven't made any progress on an extension for him and he will be an unrestricted FA in 2014. It would probably require the Sox to put together an attractive package of players. (*patiently waits for snide WSI comment that we have nothing of value to trade*) The only downside to getting Headley would be that despite his high offensive production, he would be yet another high strikeout addition to the lineup.

Brian26
11-09-2012, 08:26 PM
If they strike out on bringing Youk back, I wouldn't be surprised if Hahn tried to pry Chase Headley loose from the Padres.

I just don't think the Padres are going to trade him. They've traded Peavy and Adrian Gonzalez. I think they're going to lock Headley up. At some point you have to sell tickets.

Brian26
11-09-2012, 08:28 PM
Comcast SportsNet
No secret about it, WhiteSox (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23WhiteSox&src=hash) want to lock up Kevin Youkilis. Story from @DanHayesCSN (https://twitter.com/DanHayesCSN). http://cmcst.sn/aabmU2 (http://t.co/im7ZXmp4)

Hahn plans to continue discussions with Youkilis’ agent, Joe Bick, as well as further explore potential trades.

Youk was so worn down at the end of the season both at the plate and on the field after that huge initial spark when he came over. Risky move.

Tragg
11-09-2012, 10:40 PM
Youk was so worn down at the end of the season both at the plate and on the field after that huge initial spark when he came over. Risky move.

You have to couple that with moving Dunn, because YOuk needs to play at least half his games at 1B or DH. I'm not sure what it would accomplish other than they like his OBP (Dunn has that) and his presence on the club.

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-09-2012, 10:49 PM
You have to couple that with moving Dunn, because YOuk needs to play at least half his games at 1B or DH. I'm not sure what it would accomplish other than they like his OBP (Dunn has that) and his presence on the club.

Also means they need someone competent enough to play 3B. I like the presence Youk brings to the club, but I don't get resigning him knowing full well that he needs breaks at 1B and DH over the course of a season, especially with Konerko and Dunn.

SCCWS
11-10-2012, 09:44 AM
Youk was so worn down at the end of the season both at the plate and on the field after that huge initial spark when he came over. Risky move.

The question is why was he worn down. He was not playing in Boston because of a "few nagging injuries". So the Red Sox call up Middlebrooks who exploded his first month and Youk got shipped out.

The question now is--- Is Youk healthy or still worn down.

dickallen15
11-10-2012, 10:31 AM
The question is why was he worn down. He was not playing in Boston becuase of a "few nagging injuries". So the Red Sox call up Middlebrooks who exploded his first month and Youk got shipped out.

The question now is--- Is Youk healthy or still worn down.
The theory is playing 3b wears him down. Maybe he gets a little stronger in the offseason and he can be OK.

I think a personal trainer would help him out.

I am sure one of the biggest reasons the Sox want him back is because he will only cost money and not prospects. Even ifthey sign him, he is probably a one or two year answer at best at 3B.

SCCWS
11-10-2012, 11:32 AM
The theory is playing 3b wears him down. Maybe he gets a little stronger in the offseason and he can be OK.

I think a personal trainer would help him out.

I am sure one of the biggest reasons the Sox want him back is because he will only cost money and not prospects. Even ifthey sign him, he is probably a one or two year answer at best at 3B.

When he went down early ( 40 games) in Boston, they called it "nagging injuries". Yet you say he "wore down" in Chicago. I think they may be the same. If he wore down after 40 games to start the season, some of which he Dh'd and some at first, then he is not worth the chance. However, if he had some injuries from spring taining and the first month that he never recovered from, then maybe he is worth the chance if he is now fully recovered.

slavko
11-10-2012, 02:16 PM
The theory is playing 3b wears him down. Maybe he gets a little stronger in the offseason and he can be OK.

I think a personal trainer would help him out.

I am sure one of the biggest reasons the Sox want him back is because he will only cost money and not prospects. Even ifthey sign him, he is probably a one or two year answer at best at 3B.

I got a theory right here for ya: DON'T SIGN YOUKILIS! HE'S HIGH RISK LOW REWARD!

mzh
11-10-2012, 03:11 PM
MLBTR mentioned that the Sox have interest in Torii Hunter. Maybe they are willing to sell high on Rios or de Aza.

Even with Hahn, Kenny always gets his man.

Mr. Jinx
11-10-2012, 04:02 PM
MLBTR mentioned that the Sox have interest in Torii Hunter. Maybe they are willing to sell high on Rios or de Aza.

Even with Hahn, Kenny always gets his man.

Ugh, I might have to turn in my fan card if that happens.

DSpivack
11-10-2012, 04:46 PM
MLBTR mentioned that the Sox have interest in Torii Hunter. Maybe they are willing to sell high on Rios or de Aza.

Even with Hahn, Kenny always gets his man.

Ugh, I might have to turn in my fan card if that happens.

Yeah, that would probably cause Jamie Burke to roll over in his grave.

SoxSpeed22
11-10-2012, 05:47 PM
I think Hunter will command starter money, and I also think there will be better situations for him somewhere else. The Dodgers are also after him. He can play right field, if they sell high on Rios, putting him in left would be a major waste of his abilities.

ChiSoxNationPres
11-10-2012, 06:03 PM
The article about the Dodgers interested in Hunter mentions that they are open to trading Either. I would do Floyd and or Reed for him, which would allow Youk and Konerko time at DH assuming we trade Dunn. Either can play a corner OF spot too I believe. For Dunn go get a back-end starter and or possible closer. I have no interest in Hunter considering he is 38ish and no better than Rios or De Aza.

DSpivack
11-10-2012, 06:10 PM
The article about the Dodgers interested in Hunter mentions that they are open to trading Either. I would do Floyd and or Reed for him, which would allow Youk and Konerko time at DH assuming we trade Dunn. Either can play a corner OF spot too I believe. For Dunn go get a back-end starter and or possible closer. I have no interest in Hunter considering he is 38ish and no better than Rios or De Aza.

Who would give up a good closer or decent starter for Adam Dunn?

ChiSoxNationPres
11-10-2012, 06:22 PM
Who would give up a good closer or decent starter for Adam Dunn?

I still think he has some value. There aren't too many 40 HR 100 RBI players in the game, and yes I know he has negatives too. But I think a back of the rotation guy is certainly not asking too much back for him. Off the top of my head I would say that Oak, SD, NYM could use some left handed power.

DSpivack
11-10-2012, 06:31 PM
I still think he has some value. There aren't too many 40 HR 100 RBI players in the game, and yes I know he has negatives too. But I think a back of the rotation guy is certainly not asking too much back for him. Off the top of my head I would say that Oak, SD, NYM could use some left handed power.

Outside of a couple months this season, he has been absolutely awful for 2 years and makes $15 million/season. His value is likely next to nothing right now.

ChiSoxNationPres
11-10-2012, 06:48 PM
Outside of a couple months this season, he has been absolutely awful for 2 years and makes $15 million/season. His value is likely next to nothing right now.

We would probably have to pick up 5-7 mil a year, but you don't hit 40 HRs in 2 months. He was almost comeback player of the year. I'm not even opposed to keeping him, but not in the 3 or 4 hole in the lineup. He sees about as many pitches per at bat than anyone else in baseball (and has more value with Youk in the lineup who does the same), a highly underrated aspect of his game.

DSpivack
11-10-2012, 06:59 PM
We would probably have to pick up 5-7 mil a year, but you don't hit 40 HRs in 2 months. He was almost comeback player of the year. I'm not even opposed to keeping him, but not in the 3 or 4 hole in the lineup. He sees about as many pitches per at bat than anyone else in baseball (and has more value with Youk in the lineup who does the same), a highly underrated aspect of his game.

No, you don't, but he hit 16 in the first 2 months this season. In April he hit .231/.368/.513 and in May .230/.386./590. Those are fine.

After that?

June: .181/.333/.436
July: .211/.311/.478
August: .176/.289/.402
September/October: .200/.302/.378

Those numbers after May are awful, nearly as bad as his 2011.

Could the Sox dump him if they sent back a good chunk of change in the trade? Maybe. Could they get anything of value, any player of note, in return? Doubtful. Teams aren't clamoring to trade for overpaid, mediocre veterans on the decline.

Thus, I think the Sox will keep him, but mostly because they have no real choice in the matter.

ChiSoxNationPres
11-10-2012, 07:12 PM
No, you don't, but he hit 16 in the first 2 months this season. In April he hit .231/.368/.513 and in May .230/.386./590. Those are fine.

After that?

June: .181/.333/.436
July: .211/.311/.478
August: .176/.289/.402
September/October: .200/.302/.378

Those numbers after May are awful, nearly as bad as his 2011.

Could the Sox dump him if they sent back a good chunk of change in the trade? Maybe. Could they get anything of value, any player of note, in return? Doubtful. Teams aren't clamoring to trade for overpaid, mediocre veterans on the decline.

Thus, I think the Sox will keep him, but mostly because they have no real choice in the matter.

I'll give you his Sept. even though he had 2/3 the at bats. With Dunn you don't care about his batting average, its all about HR, RBI, walks, and pitches seen. But his June, July, Aug. wasn't even that bad.

June: 8 HR, 21 RBI, 22 BB
July: 7 HR, 15 RBI, 13 BB
Aug: 7 HR, 15 RBI, 17 BB

Not sure how averaging 7 HR, 15+ RBI and some walks a month makes him complete worthless. And those are the "awful" numbers after May you speak of. If he did that every month he would have 42 HR and 90+ RBI for a season. There IS value there, thats why he was hitting #3 for a first place team for majority of the season.

DSpivack
11-10-2012, 07:37 PM
I'll give you his Sept. even though he had 2/3 the at bats. With Dunn you don't care about his batting average, its all about HR, RBI, walks, and pitches seen. But his June, July, Aug. wasn't even that bad.

June: 8 HR, 21 RBI, 22 BB
July: 7 HR, 15 RBI, 13 BB
Aug: 7 HR, 15 RBI, 17 BB

Not sure how averaging 7 HR, 15+ RBI and some walks a month makes him complete worthless. And those are the "awful" numbers after May you speak of. If he did that every month he would have 42 HR and 90+ RBI for a season. There IS value there, thats why he was hitting #3 for a first place team for majority of the season.

Just because you play a mediocre player every day doesn't mean his **** shines any brighter. Would you want the Sox to pay Dan Johnson, Luke Scott or Mark Reynolds $15 million/year? Because their numbers are pretty damn similar.

mzh
11-10-2012, 07:48 PM
Just because you play a mediocre player every day doesn't mean his **** shines any brighter. Would you want the Sox to pay Dan Johnson, Luke Scott or Mark Reynolds $15 million/year? Because their numbers are pretty damn similar.
Those 3 guys combined for less HR and hardly a better average than Dunn in 2012, as crappy as he was for a good portion of it. You knew what you were getting with him. Enough with this bull**** hyperbole. It's hard to believe that after 2010, the Thome fiasco, and all the bitching and moaning about how Ozzieball and rotating DHs don't work in the American League, this fanbase is complaining about a guy who's done nothing but put up 40 HR and 100 RBI for his entire career, 2011 excepted. He is what he is. No use bitching about it.

ChiSoxNationPres
11-10-2012, 07:54 PM
Just because you play a mediocre player every day doesn't mean his **** shines any brighter. Would you want the Sox to pay Dan Johnson, Luke Scott or Mark Reynolds $15 million/year? Because their numbers are pretty damn similar.

Dan Johnson and Luke Scott? Seriously? Neither could, and those are numbers Dunn put up in his "awful" months. You seem to be set on not wanting him back, and I can see why you and a lot of others wouldn't want him back. But, you are grossly undervaluing him. He just turned 33, he has at least a few more 40 HR 100 RBI seasons left, especially in the AL. Now that I think about it, Houston would make some sense because he is from Texas and they could use some power entering the AL.

DSpivack
11-10-2012, 09:13 PM
Those 3 guys combined for less HR and hardly a better average than Dunn in 2012, as crappy as he was for a good portion of it. You knew what you were getting with him. Enough with this bull**** hyperbole. It's hard to believe that after 2010, the Thome fiasco, and all the bitching and moaning about how Ozzieball and rotating DHs don't work in the American League, this fanbase is complaining about a guy who's done nothing but put up 40 HR and 100 RBI for his entire career, 2011 excepted. He is what he is. No use bitching about it.

Dunn has a career line of .240/.370/.499; if the Sox knew they would be getting much less than that, than they would not have given him $60 million over 4 seasons. Johnson has a career slash line of .237/.338/.412; Scott .260/.341/.487; and Reynolds .235/.332/.475. With a career .870 OPS, it is not hyperbole to say that Dunn has seriously underperformed his contract in his time with the White Sox. In two full seasons, he has had just two months with an OPS of at least .800; in those 10 other months, his slash lines look quite similar to that of the few players mentioned.

That said, I wouldn't want the White Sox to trade him this offseason:

Dan Johnson and Luke Scott? Seriously? Neither could, and those are numbers Dunn put up in his "awful" months. You seem to be set on not wanting him back, and I can see why you and a lot of others wouldn't want him back. But, you are grossly undervaluing him. He just turned 33, he has at least a few more 40 HR 100 RBI seasons left, especially in the AL. Now that I think about it, Houston would make some sense because he is from Texas and they could use some power entering the AL.

Then, you're misunderstanding me. You advocated trading me by sending out $5-7 million per year on his contract. I think that his poor performance thus far with the White Sox means that, even with sending out that kind of money, the return on a trade would be so low as to be pointless. Dunn could still bounce back to his career numbers, or be mediocre and still put up 40 HRs as he did this past season. I don't think they could anything more than a AAAA player or organization depth in return, and those players are worth a heck of a lot less than the $10-12 million it would cost to send out Dunn in a trade.

dickallen15
11-11-2012, 09:31 AM
Dunn has a career line of .240/.370/.499; if the Sox knew they would be getting much less than that, than they would not have given him $60 million over 4 seasons. Johnson has a career slash line of .237/.338/.412; Scott .260/.341/.487; and Reynolds .235/.332/.475. With a career .870 OPS, it is not hyperbole to say that Dunn has seriously underperformed his contract in his time with the White Sox. In two full seasons, he has had just two months with an OPS of at least .800; in those 10 other months, his slash lines look quite similar to that of the few players mentioned.

That said, I wouldn't want the White Sox to trade him this offseason:



Then, you're misunderstanding me. You advocated trading me by sending out $5-7 million per year on his contract. I think that his poor performance thus far with the White Sox means that, even with sending out that kind of money, the return on a trade would be so low as to be pointless. Dunn could still bounce back to his career numbers, or be mediocre and still put up 40 HRs as he did this past season. I don't think they could anything more than a AAAA player or organization depth in return, and those players are worth a heck of a lot less than the $10-12 million it would cost to send out Dunn in a trade.

The other thing is he really is a DH. He can play the field but every day would be a disaster. That will limit his market. So then you have to find an AL team looking for a DH willing to take his salary. The Yankees are cutting payroll. The Red Sox have Ortiz. The Tigers will not have the DH spot open. Who would take that contract, and give you something useful for him? You are correct, no one. I also agree with you, if you have to pay to get rid of him, keep him, just move him down to 6th or 7th in the line up, at least until he shows he can get back to getting on base like he used to.

Golden Sox
11-11-2012, 09:52 AM
I'm hoping Dunn won't be on the White Sox in 2013. I realize he will be difficult to move but I'm hoping he's gone by Opening Day. Every team seems to have somebody they would like to move off their team. Hopefully we can get one of those players for Dunn. As much as I don't like A Rod, I would rather have him than Dunn. I'm under the impression the White Sox are going to make some moves at the Winter Meetings in December. The sooner Dunn is gone, the better as far as I'm concerned.

Milw
11-11-2012, 10:30 AM
The other thing is he really is a DH. He can play the field but every day would be a disaster. That will limit his market. So then you have to find an AL team looking for a DH willing to take his salary. The Yankees are cutting payroll. The Red Sox have Ortiz. The Tigers will not have the DH spot open. Who would take that contract, and give you something useful for him? You are correct, no one. I also agree with you, if you have to pay to get rid of him, keep him, just move him down to 6th or 7th in the line up, at least until he shows he can get back to getting on base like he used to.
I dunno, the Phillies went into this season with Jim Thome on their roster. Given that interleague play is now a year-round event, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that an NL team could find a use for Dunn. Whether they'd give up anything of value for him is a different question, of course...

Brian26
11-11-2012, 10:47 AM
Here's a good column on Dunn's performance over the past two years in comparison to his salary.

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/30695/how-done-is-adam-dunn

It's hard to believe that after 2010, the Thome fiasco, and all the bitching and moaning about how Ozzieball and rotating DHs don't work in the American League, this fanbase is complaining about a guy who's done nothing but put up 40 HR and 100 RBI for his entire career, 2011 excepted. To be fair, why would the fanbase care about Dunn's accomplishments prior to 2011? He could have been Babe Ruth through 2010, but that has no bearing on what he's done over the last two years or what he'll do in 2013 & 2014. Over the last two years, he hasn't been worth the $26 million he's been paid (really, not even close), and the prognosis does not look good for the next two years at $30 million.

SI1020
11-11-2012, 12:08 PM
Here's a good column on Dunn's performance over the past two years in comparison to his salary.

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/30695/how-done-is-adam-dunn

To be fair, why would the fanbase care about Dunn's accomplishments prior to 2011? He could have been Babe Ruth through 2010, but that has no bearing on what he's done over the last two years or what he'll do in 2013 & 2014. Over the last two years, he hasn't been worth the $26 million he's been paid (really, not even close), and the prognosis does not look good for the next two years at $30 million. Thank you.

DSpivack
11-11-2012, 12:53 PM
I'm hoping Dunn won't be on the White Sox in 2013. I realize he will be difficult to move but I'm hoping he's gone by Opening Day. Every team seems to have somebody they would like to move off their team. Hopefully we can get one of those players for Dunn. As much as I don't like A Rod, I would rather have him than Dunn. I'm under the impression the White Sox are going to make some moves at the Winter Meetings in December. The sooner Dunn is gone, the better as far as I'm concerned.

As hitters in a vacuum, Rodriguez might be preferrable (though I think it's almost a wash). But his contract is several orders of magnitude worse. What the Yankees were thinking when they signed him to that 10-year extension, I have no idea. That might be the single worst contract in sports right now. He has 5 years and $114 million left on his contract, and that's not including career HR milestones* worth up to $30 million. The Yankees are stuck with A-Rod's awful contract; next year alone, they'll be paying Rodriguez almost what the Sox will pay Dunn for the 2 remaining years on his deal ($28 million for A-Rod, $30 million for Dunn).

*$6 million each for hitting 660, 714, 755, tying and topping Bonds.

getonbckthr
11-11-2012, 01:55 PM
I don't know how the guys being rumored to be available score on sabermetrics but isn't Hahn supposed to be a sabermetrics guy where KW was more of an old school eye test kind of guy?

CoopaLoop
11-11-2012, 02:04 PM
Gavin has value but it has to be the right trade. I read somewhere a suggestion of Floyd and a prospect for Moustakas. I would be down with that!



lol, I am sure that is a trade K.C is just begging Hahn to make.

dickallen15
11-11-2012, 02:30 PM
I dunno, the Phillies went into this season with Jim Thome on their roster. Given that interleague play is now a year-round event, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that an NL team could find a use for Dunn. Whether they'd give up anything of value for him is a different question, of course...

They weren't paying Thome $30 million, and they didn't have to give up anything to get him. There is no NL team that will take Adam Dunn's contract. No one offered it to him 2 years ago, amd he has done nothing to show he is worth it since.

doublem23
11-11-2012, 02:52 PM
To be fair, why would the fanbase care about Dunn's accomplishments prior to 2011? He could have been Babe Ruth through 2010, but that has no bearing on what he's done over the last two years or what he'll do in 2013 & 2014. Over the last two years, he hasn't been worth the $26 million he's been paid (really, not even close), and the prognosis does not look good for the next two years at $30 million.

Because you're trying to make educated decisions about whats best for the franchise going forward and only a completely crazy person would cut off 10 years of data and rely solely on 2.

Brian26
11-11-2012, 03:27 PM
Because you're trying to make educated decisions about whats best for the franchise going forward and only a completely crazy person would cut off 10 years of data and rely solely on 2.

The crazy person would look at baseball statistics as if they were in a vacuum. What Adam Dunn in 2004 is irrelevant to what he's done in the past two years, which has been to fall off a cliff. It happened to Jermaine Dye. It could have happened to Konerko, but he reinvented himself a bit and learned how to poke base hits to right field.

If Dunn was even batting .235, this wouldn't be a discussion. He batted .267 and .260 with Washington in '09 and '10. Hovering around .200 or below is not what the Sox were paying for when they signed that contract.

TDog
11-11-2012, 03:40 PM
I dunno, the Phillies went into this season with Jim Thome on their roster. Given that interleague play is now a year-round event, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that an NL team could find a use for Dunn. Whether they'd give up anything of value for him is a different question, of course...

Interleague play is a year-round event in that there will be an interleague series going on at all times, but each team will play only 20 interleague games. A National League team would only have 10 games in American League parks. The Phillies, for example, have four games in AL Houston in mid-September after the rosters expand and when they may or may not be in the race. I don't believe the demand for defensively challenged hitters will increase among NL teams. I think it's unlikely that the schedule change will make Adam Dunn more attractive to NL teams.

I would love for the Sox to trade Dunn. When they signed him, I thought they could get pretty much the same productivity out of Mark Reynolds for a smaller salary, but I didn't believe that would help them win either. I don't believe Dunn's game translates to winning baseball, and he has had two poor miserable years with the White Sox. If he got off to a good start in 2012 after making adjustments, those adjustments have either been surrendered by him or countered by opposing pitchers. There is no reason to believe the game he displayed in the NL, where he wasn't a part of winning teams, will ever show up in the AL where is being paid huge money to win.

The White Sox are stuck with Dunn, and it will be difficult to drastically improve the offense with him hitting third, fourth or even fifth on an everyday basis.

TheVulture
11-11-2012, 04:33 PM
Because you're trying to make educated decisions about whats best for the franchise going forward and only a completely crazy person would cut off 10 years of data and rely solely on 2.

Ventura had ten good years, maybe we should give him a crack.

Tragg
11-11-2012, 04:46 PM
Another thing to remember about 3B is that Beckham can play 3rd. If there is a capable 2B out there, we could take him and just move Beckham over and solve the problem (with the offensive hole shifted from 2b to 3B).

LITTLE NELL
11-11-2012, 06:50 PM
Another thing to remember about 3B is that Beckham can play 3rd. If there is a capable 2B out there, we could take him and just move Beckham over and solve the problem (with the offensive hole shifted from 2b to 3B).

There was an article somewhere last week that the Sox were thinking about moving the Tank back to 3B.

gr8mexico
11-11-2012, 08:17 PM
Dunn still has value especially to a team like the Astros now that they're heading to the AL.

DSpivack
11-11-2012, 08:31 PM
Dunn still has value especially to a team like the Astros now that they're heading to the AL.

Why would a rebuilding team take on a 2-year, $30 million contract of a 32-year old DH on the decline? They dealt Carlos Lee to the Marlins last season for a reason. Brett Wallace can put up better numbers than Dunn, at basically the minimum.

palehozenychicty
11-11-2012, 09:37 PM
Why would a rebuilding team take on a 2-year, $30 million contract of a 32-year old DH on the decline? They dealt Carlos Lee to the Marlins last season for a reason. Brett Wallace can put up better numbers than Dunn, at basically the minimum.

Exactly. Even as a native Texan on a bad team with payroll flexibility, you can do better.

Just put him in there and hope for the best.

Tragg
11-11-2012, 10:23 PM
Why would a rebuilding team take on a 2-year, $30 million contract of a 32-year old DH on the decline? They dealt Carlos Lee to the Marlins last season for a reason. Brett Wallace can put up better numbers than Dunn, at basically the minimum.

I agree that the Astros won't want Dunn, but they need an upgrade. Brett Wallace has a zero chance of putting up numbers anywhere near Dunn's. Walllace has no power at all.

DSpivack
11-11-2012, 10:57 PM
I agree that the Astros won't want Dunn, but they need an upgrade. Brett Wallace has a zero chance of putting up numbers anywhere near Dunn's. Walllace has no power at all.

Yeah, you're right. I saw that Wallace had a better AVG and similar or better OBP, but his OPS still pales in comparison.

WLL1855
11-11-2012, 11:55 PM
I'm thinking the Astros care only about one number and that is salary.

WLL1855
11-11-2012, 11:57 PM
Trade Dunn for Altuve. Move Bacon to 3B. Done.

gosox41
11-12-2012, 04:11 AM
If true about Beckham, I think it says a lot about what they think of Sanchez.

Then I think they may be overrating Sanchez.


Bob

doublem23
11-12-2012, 06:04 AM
Ventura had ten good years, maybe we should give him a crack.

Oh, yeah, you're right, you really got me there! Hey, maybe we should dig up Babe Ruth's fat ass and plug him in as DH, he had a couple of good years, RIGHT?

:thumbsup:

Why would a rebuilding team take on a 2-year, $30 million contract of a 32-year old DH on the decline? They dealt Carlos Lee to the Marlins last season for a reason. Brett Wallace can put up better numbers than Dunn, at basically the minimum.

I'm sure if the Sox dump Dunn they're going to have to salt and pepper some of his contract, I would think the idea of removing Dunn is less to try and find some payroll flexibility and more to try and refocus the offense because it's apparently taken people only 1 year to forget about all this "smallball" bull**** crap again, but, eh, whatever. Houston is an interesting partner but I don't know what at all we'd want back from them. Their farm system is widely considered to be about as bad as the Sox's, right?

Then I think they may be overrating Sanchez.

Maybe, but how much worse can Sanchez really be?

russ99
11-12-2012, 09:52 AM
Oh, yeah, you're right, you really got me there! Hey, maybe we should dig up Babe Ruth's fat ass and plug him in as DH, he had a couple of good years, RIGHT?

:thumbsup:


I'm sure if the Sox dump Dunn they're going to have to salt and pepper some of his contract, I would think the idea of removing Dunn is less to try and find some payroll flexibility and more to try and refocus the offense because it's apparently taken people only 1 year to forget about all this "smallball" bull**** crap again, but, eh, whatever. Houston is an interesting partner but I don't know what at all we'd want back from them. Their farm system is widely considered to be about as bad as the Sox's, right?

Maybe, but how much worse can Sanchez really be?

The Astros farm system is in the top 10 after the last 2 drafts and the trades made this offseason.

Yet, they wouldn't touch Dunn with a 10 foot pole. They're looking to bring Berkman in at far less than his last contract to DH and maybe a few bargain basement FA outfielders and pitchers.. Ken Rosenthal has an article that the Astros will have the lowest payroll in the majors next year.

Maybe something could be done to deal Floyd to the Astros for Jed Lowrie to play 3B. They surely wouldn't take on Dunn's salary in return for some the prospects they've been stockpiling the last few years.

Also, nobody is advocating "small ball", but it's very obvious we need a different dynamic on offense. Cut out a few of the low average, high strikeout, poor situational hitters and bring in a few good contact hitters.

Which is why selling high on Viciedo is a more likely option than anyone making us a good offer on the likes of Dunn.

Domeshot17
11-12-2012, 11:31 AM
The Astros farm system is in the top 10 after the last 2 drafts and the trades made this offseason.

Yet, they wouldn't touch Dunn with a 10 foot pole. They're looking to bring Berkman in at far less than his last contract to DH and maybe a few bargain basement FA outfielders and pitchers.. Ken Rosenthal has an article that the Astros will have the lowest payroll in the majors next year.

Maybe something could be done to deal Floyd to the Astros for Jed Lowrie to play 3B. They surely wouldn't take on Dunn's salary in return for some the prospects they've been stockpiling the last few years.

Also, nobody is advocating "small ball", but it's very obvious we need a different dynamic on offense. Cut out a few of the low average, high strikeout, poor situational hitters and bring in a few good contact hitters.

Which is why selling high on Viciedo is a more likely option than anyone making us a good offer on the likes of Dunn.

The low average high strike out guys you cutout should not come from the middle of the order. Most winning teams have a 3-4-5 that has power and can drive in runs, and speed is not much of a factor.

If we are going to cut low average players, it needs to start with Youk and Gordon.

Domeshot17
11-12-2012, 11:34 AM
Another thing to remember about 3B is that Beckham can play 3rd. If there is a capable 2B out there, we could take him and just move Beckham over and solve the problem (with the offensive hole shifted from 2b to 3B).

Nope. You can stomach piss poor offense up the middle if the defense is good, but 3b is an offensive position. Gordon doesn't have the bat to play 2b let alone 3b. He could possibly be the worst offensive 3b in baseball.

JB98
11-12-2012, 01:20 PM
Then I think they may be overrating Sanchez.


Bob

Maybe, but I don't know anything about the kid other than the statistics I've seen and some of the articles I've read.

I honestly don't have the first damn clue how close Sanchez is to the big leagues.

russ99
11-12-2012, 01:36 PM
The low average high strike out guys you cutout should not come from the middle of the order. Most winning teams have a 3-4-5 that has power and can drive in runs, and speed is not much of a factor.

If we are going to cut low average players, it needs to start with Youk and Gordon.

I don't deny that we need a solid 3-4-5. And we do, when all three guys are clicking, Dunn, Konerko, Rios are at least above average.

But is it wrong to expect the rest of the lineup to handle a bat, work the count, find the best pitch to hit and do something with it instead of gettung behind in most counts, hacking at bad pitches and trying to pull it out of the park?

If we can find a taker on Beckham, a guy like Jeff Keppinger at 2B wouldn't be much of a step down on defense, and would put a much needed patient contact hitter in the lineup at a less that premium price.

As for Viciedo, you have to ask if you can see him taking over for Paul or Rios in the heart of the order the next few years, and if you're comfortable paying him top dollar as Boras needs only to point at his HR totals to get him the largest possible amount in arb or as a FA

doublem23
11-12-2012, 01:52 PM
As for Viciedo, you have to ask if you can see him taking over for Paul or Rios in the heart of the order the next few years, and if you're comfortable paying him top dollar as Boras needs only to point at his HR totals to get him the largest possible amount in arb or as a FA

You are really rushing the clock on Viciedo, he doesn't even hit arbitration for 2 more seasons.

TDog
11-12-2012, 02:08 PM
The low average high strike out guys you cutout should not come from the middle of the order. Most winning teams have a 3-4-5 that has power and can drive in runs, and speed is not much of a factor.

If we are going to cut low average players, it needs to start with Youk and Gordon.

Beckham did more to help the White Sox win last year than Dunn did. He had a very strong defensive. Beckham also was more likely to drive in runners in scoring position than Dunn was. No contending team this year had a No. 3 hitter with a batting average of .204 in more than .600 plate appearances. I have never seen a contending team with a .204 No. 3 hitter in more than 600 plate appearances. On most teams, hitting .204 will guarantee that you don't hit third and probably that you won't get more than 600 plate appearances.

When you hit .204 and your role is to drive in runs, when you hit .212 with runners in scoring position as an RBI man, your on-base percentage is irrelevant.

Take away Beckham, and you have to plug a hole in the defense or your pitching suffers. Maybe you can do that, maybe not. Youkilis is probably easier to replace than Beckham because he isn't as strong at third as Beckham is at second. Take away Dunn and you don't lose anything but the money committed to him. You likely won't be able to replace all his home runs, but a No. 3 hitter who would have made consistent line-drive contact, putting the ball in play to all fields likely would have driven in more than 96 runs for the White Sox last year.

DH isn't a position. It is an opportunity to put another bat in the lineup. Sticking Dunn there hasn't helped the Sox in the last two years. DH is in need of improvement. Comparing the current White Sox DH situation to past White Sox DH situations is less meaningful than comparing the current situation with what the White Sox could do at DH.

TaylorStSox
11-12-2012, 02:23 PM
Beckham did more to help the White Sox win last year than Dunn did.

Ummm, no. Beckham's a plus defender, but not great. There's a reason he's a second baseman. He was among the worst 3 hitting second baseman in baseball. There's no way he was more valuable than the guy who hit 40 home runs and led the league in walks.

SI1020
11-12-2012, 02:32 PM
Beckham did more to help the White Sox win last year than Dunn did. He had a very strong defensive. Beckham also was more likely to drive in runners in scoring position than Dunn was. No contending team this year had a No. 3 hitter with a batting average of .204 in more than .600 plate appearances. I have never seen a contending team with a .204 No. 3 hitter in more than 600 plate appearances. On most teams, hitting .204 will guarantee that you don't hit third and probably that you won't get more than 600 plate appearances.

When you hit .204 and your role is to drive in runs, when you hit .212 with runners in scoring position as an RBI man, your on-base percentage is irrelevant.

Take away Beckham, and you have to plug a hole in the defense or your pitching suffers. Maybe you can do that, maybe not. Youkilis is probably easier to replace than Beckham because he isn't as strong at third as Beckham is at second. Take away Dunn and you don't lose anything but the money committed to him. You likely won't be able to replace all his home runs, but a No. 3 hitter who would have made consistent line-drive contact, putting the ball in play to all fields likely would have driven in more than 96 runs for the White Sox last year.

DH isn't a position. It is an opportunity to put another bat in the lineup. Sticking Dunn there hasn't helped the Sox in the last two years. DH is in need of improvement. Comparing the current White Sox DH situation to past White Sox DH situations is less meaningful than comparing the current situation with what the White Sox could do at DH. I agree, although Beckham was hardly a world beater himself.


Also, nobody is advocating "small ball", but it's very obvious we need a different dynamic on offense. Cut out a few of the low average, high strikeout, poor situational hitters and bring in a few good contact hitters.
I agree. As DSpivak pointed Dunn's last 4 months of 2012 wasn't all that much better than what he did in 2011.

russ99
11-12-2012, 02:56 PM
You are really rushing the clock on Viciedo, he doesn't even hit arbitration for 2 more seasons.

Viciedo has 1.123 years service time. He most likely be arb eligible after the 2014 season, but there's a small chance he could hit super-two next season.

Viciedo made 2.5M base salary last year and $1M prorated bonus. So this year he made a total of $3.5M and despite no arbitration rights, Boras will be looking for at least a decent raise on top of that. By the time he hits arbitration, he could be around the $5-6M salary level, and asking for $8-9M if it goes to a hearing.

So yes, it is a bit early, but his salary will escalate soon, which in turn could reduce his trade value, especially if he doesn't grow as an overall hitter.

Yes, all players are different, but I can't help but look at Alexei and assume we're going to see the same lack of growth in plate recognition, situational/contact hitting as Dayan gets older.

Foulke You
11-12-2012, 03:33 PM
I agree, although Beckham was hardly a world beater himself.

I agree. As DSpivak pointed Dunn's last 4 months of 2012 wasn't all that much better than what he did in 2011.
I don't know how anyone can compare that 2011 train wreck to anything he did in 2012. Use your eyes. Adam Dunn was as useful as a door stop in the 2011 season with a .159 avg and he "slugged" .292. In Dunn's supposed "bad stretch" of 2012, (June thru September) he banged out 26HRs and 59RBIs and 63 walks. WAAAAAY better production than anything he did in 2011 and certainly solid power production from your DH spot.

Is Dunn overpaid? Yeah, probably. Should he be batting 3rd? Probably not. However, I have issues with people who say Dunn was "almost as bad" in 2012 as he was in 2011. That is simply not the case. I know that we probably wouldn't have been in first place as long as we were without his power production in the middle of the lineup. The turnarounds of Alex Rios and Adam Dunn were a big part of why we stayed in contention as long as we did in 2012.

Foulke You
11-12-2012, 03:43 PM
I also agree with you, if you have to pay to get rid of him, keep him, just move him down to 6th or 7th in the line up, at least until he shows he can get back to getting on base like he used to.
You really think there isn't a single team out there that wouldn't take Dunn? A 40HR 100RBI guy who only has two years of financial commitment? A left handed hitter to boot? A guy with over 400 HRs in his career? Take a look at the contracts being handed out around baseball for guys who produce less than Dunn. 36 year old DH David Ortiz (who is injury prone and cannot play the field at all) just got a 2 year contract extension worth $26 million. This is only a little less than what Dunn is owed on his deal. If Hahn put Dunn on the trade market, I guarantee his phone would be ringing.

Mr. Jinx
11-12-2012, 04:27 PM
You really think there isn't a single team out there that wouldn't take Dunn? A 40HR 100RBI guy who only has two years of financial commitment? A left handed hitter to boot? A guy with over 400 HRs in his career? Take a look at the contracts being handed out around baseball for guys who produce less than Dunn. 36 year old DH David Ortiz (who is injury prone and cannot play the field at all) just got a 2 year contract extension worth $26 million. This is only a little less than what Dunn is owed on his deal. If Hahn put Dunn on the trade market, I guarantee his phone would be ringing.

I think there are certain extenuating circumstances there though. The Red Sox traded away what seemed like half their team last year, hired and fired a very unpopular coach, and had one of their worst seasons in years. I think part of that deal was to help out their strained PR. I just can't believe anyone else was going to give out $26mil to an 37 year old former juicer who can't even play a position in the field.

dickallen15
11-12-2012, 04:47 PM
You really think there isn't a single team out there that wouldn't take Dunn? A 40HR 100RBI guy who only has two years of financial commitment? A left handed hitter to boot? A guy with over 400 HRs in his career? Take a look at the contracts being handed out around baseball for guys who produce less than Dunn. 36 year old DH David Ortiz (who is injury prone and cannot play the field at all) just got a 2 year contract extension worth $26 million. This is only a little less than what Dunn is owed on his deal. If Hahn put Dunn on the trade market, I guarantee his phone would be ringing.

Your guarantee would be worthless as I am sure Adam is available.The Sox were the high bidders for Dunn 2 years ago. If teams didn't want to pay him $15 million a year then, why would they now? Ortiz is a better hitter than Dunn. If you can't see that, you obviously must be a relative.

TDog
11-12-2012, 05:28 PM
Ummm, no. Beckham's a plus defender, but not great. There's a reason he's a second baseman. He was among the worst 3 hitting second baseman in baseball. There's no way he was more valuable than the guy who hit 40 home runs and led the league in walks.

Unless your goal is to win games. Look at the games that were decided by Beckham's successes and failures on both offense and defense and look at where Dunn's successes and failures on both offense and defense. Beckham was far from being the team's MVP, but he contributed more to the team's success than Dunn did.

Daver
11-12-2012, 05:37 PM
There was an article somewhere last week that the Sox were thinking about moving the Tank back to 3B.

Someone please tell me that this is a typo.

Wedema
11-12-2012, 05:53 PM
Someone please tell me that this is a typo.


http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-11-08/sports/ct-spt-1108-white-sox-gm-meetings-chicago--20121108_1_rick-hahn-dayan-viciedo-organizational-meetings

Tragg
11-12-2012, 06:35 PM
Nope. You can stomach piss poor offense up the middle if the defense is good, but 3b is an offensive position. Gordon doesn't have the bat to play 2b let alone 3b. He could possibly be the worst offensive 3b in baseball.
No difference. Having an average hitting 3B and Beckham at 2B or an equivalent hitting 2B and beckham at 3rd, is the same result.
Yes, there usually are MORE good hitting 3B than 2B at least in the power sense, but power may not be what the Sox really need. And the fact is that Sox 2B have generally hit better than the 3B anyway....good hitting 3B are harder to find these days.

Someone mentioned Lowrie. He could be had, but he's got incessant injury issues.

chicagowhitesox1
11-12-2012, 07:06 PM
No difference. Having an average hitting 3B and Beckham at 2B or an equivalent hitting 2B and beckham at 3rd, is the same result.
Yes, there usually are MORE good hitting 3B than 2B at least in the power sense, but power may not be what the Sox really need. And the fact is that Sox 2B have generally hit better than the 3B anyway....good hitting 3B are harder to find these days.

Someone mentioned Lowrie. He could be had, but he's got incessant injury issues.

Do you mean Brett Lawrie? I would think he would be tough to get. He would be a good pickup though.

LITTLE NELL
11-12-2012, 07:10 PM
Someone please tell me that this is a typo.

I was going to post the article but got sidetracked with a phone call but Wedema posted the article . For what it's worth I think it's a bad idea.

DSpivack
11-12-2012, 07:31 PM
Do you mean Brett Lawrie? I would think he would be tough to get. He would be a good pickup though.

Jed Lowrie of the Astros, who played SS last year, not the Blue Jays' 3B Brett Lawrie.

TaylorStSox
11-12-2012, 08:02 PM
Unless your goal is to win games. Look at the games that were decided by Beckham's successes and failures on both offense and defense and look at where Dunn's successes and failures on both offense and defense. Beckham was far from being the team's MVP, but he contributed more to the team's success than Dunn did.

This is just anecdotal drivel. I challenge you to find 1 stat that says Beckham is a more valuable player than Dunn.

I find Beckham more frustrating than Dunn. If you're going to be a really bad hitter, you better do the little things ie. moving runners over, be a good base runner. Beckham does neither of these. He's a plus 2nd baseman. That's great. Plus second baseman are called failed short stops.

I'm not a big fan of Dunn, but there's absolutely no way he brings less value than a guy who probably shouldn't even be an every day player. At the end of the day, 41 home runs and 105 walks don't lie.

SCCWS
11-12-2012, 09:31 PM
Jed Lowrie of the Astros, who played SS last year, not the Blue Jays' 3B Brett Lawrie.

Red Sox dumped him because he was always injured. Lot of shoulder problems. Good hitter when he plays but a very average fielder.

palehozenychicty
11-12-2012, 10:21 PM
This is just anecdotal drivel. I challenge you to find 1 stat that says Beckham is a more valuable player than Dunn.

I find Beckham more frustrating than Dunn. If you're going to be a really bad hitter, you better do the little things ie. moving runners over, be a good base runner. Beckham does neither of these. He's a plus 2nd baseman. That's great. Plus second baseman are called failed short stops.

I'm not a big fan of Dunn, but there's absolutely no way he brings less value than a guy who probably shouldn't even be an every day player. At the end of the day, 41 home runs and 105 walks don't lie.

You can't rationalize Dunn with TDog. According to him, he's keeping this team from a dynasty.

TDog
11-12-2012, 10:26 PM
This is just anecdotal drivel. I challenge you to find 1 stat that says Beckham is a more valuable player than Dunn.

I find Beckham more frustrating than Dunn. If you're going to be a really bad hitter, you better do the little things ie. moving runners over, be a good base runner. Beckham does neither of these. He's a plus 2nd baseman. That's great. Plus second baseman are called failed short stops.

I'm not a big fan of Dunn, but there's absolutely no way he brings less value than a guy who probably shouldn't even be an every day player. At the end of the day, 41 home runs and 105 walks don't lie.

Beckham had a higher batting average with runners in scoring position. He had a higher batting average than Dunn with two outs and runners in scoring position. Late in close games Beckham had a higher batting average than Dunn. It wasn't a good batting average, unless you compare it to Dunn's, whose batting averages in the above situations weren't even close.. Dunn was more vulnerable to late-inning relievers than Beckham was, although that might be weighted against Dunn in that teams were more likely to bring in specialists whose job was to get him out while teams generally did not change pitchers to focus on Beckham.

At the end of the day, Dunn was a black hole offensively. As a third-place hitter, he hurt the White Sox over the course of 2012. If you are relying on his stats to tell you otherwise, you are misinterpreting them. If hitting home runs is pretty much all you do offensively, 41 over six months, doesn't guarantee you are helping your team. No one has ever had a lower batting average while leading the league in walks. In my lifetime, I have never seen a championship team that played most of the year with a No. 3 hitter hitting .204.

And Adam Dunn led the league in unproductive outs.

Domeshot17
11-12-2012, 10:30 PM
This idea Gordon wins more games with his glove than Dunn with the bat is pure comedy:

Last year, Beckham's UZR was negative, he was worse than Dan Uggla, and well below his career 3.0 average.

His WAR (which factors in defense) was 0.6
Adam Dunn's war (which is brought DOWN by his defense) is 1.8

There is not 1 stat, SABR or not, that backs that up.

palehozenychicty
11-12-2012, 11:51 PM
This idea Gordon wins more games with his glove than Dunn with the bat is pure comedy:

Last year, Beckham's UZR was negative, he was worse than Dan Uggla, and well below his career 3.0 average.

His WAR (which factors in defense) was 0.6
Adam Dunn's war (which is brought DOWN by his defense) is 1.8

There is not 1 stat, SABR or not, that backs that up.

Haters are going to hate.

SI1020
11-13-2012, 09:59 AM
This idea Gordon wins more games with his glove than Dunn with the bat is pure comedy:

Last year, Beckham's UZR was negative, he was worse than Dan Uggla, and well below his career 3.0 average.

His WAR (which factors in defense) was 0.6
Adam Dunn's war (which is brought DOWN by his defense) is 1.8

There is not 1 stat, SABR or not, that backs that up. In recent months I tried several times and completely failed to start a dialogue on a massive recalculation of WAR by baseball-reference this past spring. It reminded of me of how certain regimes would rewrite history years after the fact. Defensive WAR in particular no longer has any meaning for me. I note on the baseball-reference 2012 White Sox page Adam Dunn has a 1.5 OWAR and a -1.7 DWAR. So maybe in the crazy new methods that comes out to a +1.8. As for TDog I think there are few if any posters here who hang in there and take it the way he does. Regarding Dunn, he is right on as far as I'm concerned.

TaylorStSox
11-13-2012, 10:26 AM
Beckham had a higher batting average with runners in scoring position. He had a higher batting average than Dunn with two outs and runners in scoring position. Late in close games Beckham had a higher batting average than Dunn. It wasn't a good batting average, unless you compare it to Dunn's, whose batting averages in the above situations weren't even close.. Dunn was more vulnerable to late-inning relievers than Beckham was, although that might be weighted against Dunn in that teams were more likely to bring in specialists whose job was to get him out while teams generally did not change pitchers to focus on Beckham.

At the end of the day, Dunn was a black hole offensively. As a third-place hitter, he hurt the White Sox over the course of 2012. If you are relying on his stats to tell you otherwise, you are misinterpreting them. If hitting home runs is pretty much all you do offensively, 41 over six months, doesn't guarantee you are helping your team. No one has ever had a lower batting average while leading the league in walks. In my lifetime, I have never seen a championship team that played most of the year with a No. 3 hitter hitting .204.

And Adam Dunn led the league in unproductive outs.

The best way to win games, unless something changed, is to score more runs than the opposition. Dunn scored far more runs and knocked in far more runs.

Beckham's defense is becoming the stuff of legends. He is a vacuum. He is fantastic at turning the double play. He has a very strong arm for a second baseman. He also has very, very limited range. He isn't even the best defender, relative to position, on the team. Rios and Ramirez are far better defenders. Ramirez is a far better defender at a far more important position. Compound that with Beckham being among the very worst hitting second baseman in baseball, and he has little to no value.

I know you don't like Dunn. I don't really like him either. I'd prefer a more versatile hitter. However, to say one of the worst players in baseball is more important is just ludicrous. By any measure besides power, Gordon Beckham is pretty awful.

Domeshot17
11-13-2012, 10:26 AM
In recent months I tried several times and completely failed to start a dialogue on a massive recalculation of WAR by baseball-reference this past spring. It reminded of me of how certain regimes would rewrite history years after the fact. Defensive WAR in particular no longer has any meaning for me. I note on the baseball-reference 2012 White Sox page Adam Dunn has a 1.5 OWAR and a -1.7 DWAR. So maybe in the crazy new methods that comes out to a +1.8. As for TDog I think there are few if any posters here who hang in there and take it the way he does. Regarding Dunn, he is right on as far as I'm concerned.

Ultimately, Dunn is better offensive and defensive DH than Beckham is an offensive and defensive 2b. I like Gordon, I think he is better served in a utility role personally, but he is a BAD hitter and an above average defender. He is a top 10 defensive 2b and a bottom 5 offensive 2b.

Yes, obviously Dunn would be better served hitting 6th since he can't keep his average in the 240's anymore. However, you also can't ignore 40 homers and over 90 RBIs.

chicagowhitesox1
11-13-2012, 10:53 AM
I thought Beckham was doing pretty good until they picked up Youkilis. He was hitting in the two spot and he was starting to do pretty good until they put him in the 9 spot.

slavko
11-13-2012, 11:06 AM
I thought Beckham was doing pretty good until they picked up Youkilis. He was hitting in the two spot and he was starting to do pretty good until they put him in the 9 spot.

Gordon has run out of excuses and glimmers of hope at the plate. When does the club get this?

SI1020
11-13-2012, 12:05 PM
Ultimately, Dunn is better offensive and defensive DH than Beckham is an offensive and defensive 2b. I like Gordon, I think he is better served in a utility role personally, but he is a BAD hitter and an above average defender. He is a top 10 defensive 2b and a bottom 5 offensive 2b.

Yes, obviously Dunn would be better served hitting 6th since he can't keep his average in the 240's anymore. However, you also can't ignore 40 homers and over 90 RBIs. Good post. I pretty much agree with the bolded. If either of both of these guys is unloaded hopefully we can get some help in return. If not then may Beckham and Dunn be the best they both can be. To those of you who have lost patience with Beckham I hear you.

PalehosePlanet
11-13-2012, 12:14 PM
Gordon has run out of excuses and glimmers of hope at the plate. When does the club get this?

I think the club already gets it; that's why he was buried in the 9 hole for most of the last two years. The fact is the organization lacks anyone better for the time being. That's the only reason we keep playing him -- that, and he's cheap.

#1swisher
11-13-2012, 01:07 PM
Jon Morosi
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TheVulture
11-13-2012, 02:09 PM
Take a look at the contracts being handed out around baseball for guys who produce less than Dunn. 36 year old DH David Ortiz (who is injury prone and cannot play the field at all) just got a 2 year contract extension worth $26 million.

You mean the same David Ortiz who hit over .300 the last two years with OPS's of .953 and 1.024? Great comparison. The only thing he produced less of than Dunn the last two years was boos, groans, clinched chests and cool breezes.

TDog
11-13-2012, 03:05 PM
The best way to win games, unless something changed, is to score more runs than the opposition. Dunn scored far more runs and knocked in far more runs.

Beckham's defense is becoming the stuff of legends. He is a vacuum. He is fantastic at turning the double play. He has a very strong arm for a second baseman. He also has very, very limited range. He isn't even the best defender, relative to position, on the team. Rios and Ramirez are far better defenders. Ramirez is a far better defender at a far more important position. Compound that with Beckham being among the very worst hitting second baseman in baseball, and he has little to no value.

I know you don't like Dunn. I don't really like him either. I'd prefer a more versatile hitter. However, to say one of the worst players in baseball is more important is just ludicrous. By any measure besides power, Gordon Beckham is pretty awful.

I am happy with a strong-defensive, light-hitting middle infielder. Teams can win, have won with strong defefensive, light-hitting middle-infielders. You have to have great pitching to win, and being strong up the middle makes your pitching better. If you benched Beckham last year for lack of hitting, you would have diminished the defense and the pitching would suffer. You may be able to replace him over the off-season with a better bat, but you would have to do it in a way that doesn't diminish the defense, which in turn would diminish the pitching.

Replacing Adam Dunn wouldn't be as difficult. It wouldn't be a matter of finding someone to hit as many home runs. With the opportunities Dunn had to drive in runs last season, he would have produced more runs by hitting fewer home runs for a substantially higher average, that is to say, substantially higher than Beckham, who had a substantially higher average than Dunn.

I'm not arguing that Beckham should DH. I am arguing that he does his job better than Dunn does his. You don't need hit .204 and strike out 222 times to hit more than 40 home runs. You don't need to hit home runs to drive in runs when you come up with runners in scoring position more than anyone on your team (note that Dunn got six fewer hits with runners in scoring position than Beckham in more than 20 more plate appearances). You don't need to hit home runs to win games or even championships. The team that hit the fewest number of home runs in baseball during the regular season swept the World Series.

You can put together stats to show that Dunn wasn't a huge problem on offense last year. If you watched the games, you know differently.

palehozenychicty
11-13-2012, 06:19 PM
I am happy with a strong-defensive, light-hitting middle infielder. Teams can win, have won with strong defefensive, light-hitting middle-infielders. You have to have great pitching to win, and being strong up the middle makes your pitching better. If you benched Beckham last year for lack of hitting, you would have diminished the defense and the pitching would suffer. You may be able to replace him over the off-season with a better bat, but you would have to do it in a way that doesn't diminish the defense, which in turn would diminish the pitching.

Replacing Adam Dunn wouldn't be as difficult. It wouldn't be a matter of finding someone to hit as many home runs. With the opportunities Dunn had to drive in runs last season, he would have produced more runs by hitting fewer home runs for a substantially higher average, that is to say, substantially higher than Beckham, who had a substantially higher average than Dunn.

I'm not arguing that Beckham should DH. I am arguing that he does his job better than Dunn does his. You don't need hit .204 and strike out 222 times to hit more than 40 home runs. You don't need to hit home runs to drive in runs when you come up with runners in scoring position more than anyone on your team (note that Dunn got six fewer hits with runners in scoring position than Beckham in more than 20 more plate appearances). You don't need to hit home runs to win games or even championships. The team that hit the fewest number of home runs in baseball during the regular season swept the World Series.

You can put together stats to show that Dunn wasn't a huge problem on offense last year. If you watched the games, you know differently.

I think we all understand that his stats have flawed angles. We also understand that his ability to make consistent contact and in key situations is subpar.

My question is this: Who do you think is out there that we know is available that can put up those numbers and hit better in those situations?

This is with the little knowledge we have about free agents, waiver wires, etc.

mahagga73
11-13-2012, 07:29 PM
Does Beckham have much value at this point?
Seriously? Look at the second baseman around the league, it's pathetic. Beckham is great defensively and well above average offensively for a second baseman despite moans to the contrary. I don't see how trading him and Vicedo improves this team at all.

mahagga73
11-13-2012, 07:33 PM
I think the club already gets it; that's why he was buried in the 9 hole for most of the last two years. The fact is the organization lacks anyone better for the time being. That's the only reason we keep playing him -- that, and he's cheap.
Once again, I will have to tell you compared to second baseman around the league he is better than average . Plays great D and is a better RBI man than most around both leagues. Not sure who or what you guys think they are going to get to match that. There is constant complaining about his offense but he did have 70 RBI's or so and that is well above the average in the league for his position. You seem to expect way too much production out of this position or you are still stuck in the 90's where there were quite a few good ones around.

mahagga73
11-13-2012, 07:35 PM
Good post. I pretty much agree with the bolded. If either of both of these guys is unloaded hopefully we can get some help in return. If not then may Beckham and Dunn be the best they both can be. To those of you who have lost patience with Beckham I hear you.
Uh no, he is above average defensively and offensively compared to the other second baseman around. FALSE. Check it out.

SCCWS
11-13-2012, 07:54 PM
Uh no, he is above average defensively and offensively compared to the other second baseman around. FALSE. Check it out.

Offensively, he is not based on stats. Of all ML 2nd baseman--qualified abs. Gordon ranks about 15 out of 21. However in OBP he ranks 20 lowest. He also is at the bottom in stolen bases. Only his 16 HR's ranks him in top 10.

mahagga73
11-13-2012, 08:05 PM
Offensively, he is not based on stats. Of all ML 2nd baseman--qualified abs. Gordon ranks about 15 out of 21. However in OBP he ranks 20 lowest. He also is at the bottom in stolen bases. Only his 16 HR's ranks him in top 10.
Half the teams in the AL were platooning this season. Who cares about steals? Above average in HR's and RBI's. WAY WAY above average on defense. I doubt they can equal his production through a trade . I like the chemistry with Ramirez, not in favor of a trade of Beckham or Dayan .

shingo10
11-13-2012, 08:31 PM
Come on Hahn. Make your mark on this offseason. I'm getting ancy with all these teams pulling off deals and us just standing pat. Shake it up!

soxfan21
11-13-2012, 08:57 PM
Come on Hahn. Make your mark on this offseason. I'm getting ancy with all these teams pulling off deals and us just standing pat. Shake it up!

At least we might have a better chance of seeing buerhle pitch next year, it will be weird seeing him in a jays uni though.

Domeshot17
11-13-2012, 09:34 PM
Come on Hahn. Make your mark on this offseason. I'm getting ancy with all these teams pulling off deals and us just standing pat. Shake it up!

That is not who Rick Hahn is. Hahn builds from within, he is not Kenny, he is going to try and build a sustainable winner. I don't think we are in for a total tear down ala the Cubs, but we will see a more conservative, calculated approach IMHO.

Domeshot17
11-13-2012, 09:41 PM
Once again, I will have to tell you compared to second baseman around the league he is better than average . Plays great D and is a better RBI man than most around both leagues. Not sure who or what you guys think they are going to get to match that. There is constant complaining about his offense but he did have 70 RBI's or so and that is well above the average in the league for his position. You seem to expect way too much production out of this position or you are still stuck in the 90's where there were quite a few good ones around.

Not sure if this is a real post or should have been Teal, but lets take a look....

of 21 qualifying 2b in the MLB last year, Beckham was 16th out of 21 in Batting Average...On Base Percentage 20 out of 21.....OPS 17 out of 21...Slugging Percentage 16 out of 21....RBI 13 out of 21...Wins Above Replacement Player 19 out of 21...stolen bases 19 out of 21....

So basically, your homerism is telling you Gordon is one of the better offensive 2b in baseball, except EVERY stat out there says he just is not.

Furthermore, he was not a gold glove calibur defender. He is reliable, but his UZR was negative last year, -0.7. His range was not good. He showed less range than Dan Uggla.... Dan freaking Uggla! Gordon turns the DP well, and he is pretty solid with the stuff hit in his vicinity, but basically your average 2b would perform about as well as he did last year defensively.

That is just unbias reflection of how his stats measure up vs. everyone else.

DSpivack
11-13-2012, 10:05 PM
That is not who Rick Hahn is. Hahn builds from within, he is not Kenny, he is going to try and build a sustainable winner. I don't think we are in for a total tear down ala the Cubs, but we will see a more conservative, calculated approach IMHO.

I agree completely.

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-13-2012, 10:40 PM
This is just a random thought I had. What would it take to get J.P. Arencibia from the Jays? He's expendable now. They have D'Arnaud who has no business being in the minors anymore and just acquired Buck as their backup. Maybe Beckham + a prospect or two to get him?

russ99
11-14-2012, 10:10 AM
That is not who Rick Hahn is. Hahn builds from within, he is not Kenny, he is going to try and build a sustainable winner. I don't think we are in for a total tear down ala the Cubs, but we will see a more conservative, calculated approach IMHO.

Except that every move he's made so far has run counter to that idea: Bringing back Peavy, re-upping Floyd, open to trading away lower salaried underpeformers, looking to bring back Youk, etc.

Only Rick Hahn knows what kind of GM he's going to be given the resources that ownership gives him.

SI1020
11-14-2012, 10:16 AM
Uh no, he is above average defensively and offensively compared to the other second baseman around. FALSE. Check it out. I wish he was but so far at least he isn't. I thought Beckham would be much better than he has been so far. He got off to a really good start, but after the first few months it has been a monumental struggle. The more I think about it Robin and Co did a helluva job with what they had. I didn't care for some of the head scratching in game moves, but overall I give the new regime a B/B+ in their first year. Maybe Manto can work some magic with Beckham this spring.

palehozenychicty
11-14-2012, 11:32 AM
This is just a random thought I had. What would it take to get J.P. Arencibia from the Jays? He's expendable now. They have D'Arnaud who has no business being in the minors anymore and just acquired Buck as their backup. Maybe Beckham + a prospect or two to get him?

Arenciba could be had. He's better than Buck. Anybody know about his defensive abilities?

Domeshot17
11-14-2012, 12:10 PM
Arenciba could be had. He's better than Buck. Anybody know about his defensive abilities?

had a high catcher's ERA last year (but most Toronto catchers did). He threw out 29% of potential base stealers, higher than AJ, below league average, similar to guys like Posey, Carlos Santana etc.

LoveYourSuit
11-14-2012, 12:58 PM
That is not who Rick Hahn is. Hahn builds from within, he is not Kenny, he is going to try and build a sustainable winner. I don't think we are in for a total tear down ala the Cubs, but we will see a more conservative, calculated approach IMHO.



And you know this how?

This is his first GM job, how could he have "built" anything?

:scratch:

Chez
11-14-2012, 12:58 PM
This is just a random thought I had. What would it take to get J.P. Arencibia from the Jays? He's expendable now. They have D'Arnaud who has no business being in the minors anymore and just acquired Buck as their backup. Maybe Beckham + a prospect or two to get him?

Arencibia is an interesting trade possibility but the Jays now have M. Izturis and E. Bonofacio to play second. They don't need Beckham.

palehozenychicty
11-14-2012, 01:10 PM
Except that every move he's made so far has run counter to that idea: Bringing back Peavy, re-upping Floyd, open to trading away lower salaried underpeformers, looking to bring back Youk, etc.

Only Rick Hahn knows what kind of GM he's going to be given the resources that ownership gives him.

It does look like more of the same. We'll see what he can do by April.

Tragg
11-14-2012, 02:58 PM
Half the teams in the AL were platooning this season. Who cares about steals? Above average in HR's and RBI's. WAY WAY above average on defense. I doubt they can equal his production through a trade . I like the chemistry with Ramirez, not in favor of a trade of Beckham or Dayan .
I tend to agree. Having one offensive hole in the Infield, with that being Beckham at 2nd or 3rd, is probably okay. Sure we can find some .320 obp 2b with 12 homers and mediocre defense easy enough; but real upgrades are expensive in talent.

Tragg
11-14-2012, 03:02 PM
That is not who Rick Hahn is. Hahn builds from within, he is not Kenny, he is going to try and build a sustainable winner. I don't think we are in for a total tear down ala the Cubs, but we will see a more conservative, calculated approach IMHO.

Then what are his plans for improving the "Within" because right now it's dreadful.

TheVulture
11-14-2012, 06:43 PM
Arenciba could be had. He's better than Buck. Anybody know about his defensive abilities?
How do you know he's better than Buck if you don't know his defensive capabilities?

palehozenychicty
11-14-2012, 08:16 PM
How do you know he's better than Buck if you don't know his defensive capabilities?

He's a better hitter. He also has way more upside than Buck at this point. This was why I glibly said that he was better.

Daver
11-14-2012, 11:12 PM
He's a better hitter.

Baseball is not an offensive sport.

CoopaLoop
11-15-2012, 12:10 AM
Baseball is not an offensive sport.

What do you think was the biggest contributor to keeping the White Sox out of the 2012 playoffs?

BigHurt3515
11-15-2012, 12:21 AM
What do you think was the biggest contributor to keeping the White Sox out of the 2012 playoffs?

Is the answer offense? Because I think the answer is offense. Do I win?

CoopaLoop
11-15-2012, 12:52 AM
Is the answer offense? Because I think the answer is offense. Do I win?

Baseball is not an offensive sport.

palehozenychicty
11-15-2012, 01:17 AM
Baseball is not an offensive sport.

Yeah it is. You play to score the most runs to win the game.

Defense and pitching put you in the conversation. Offense is execution of fundamentals and key hits, whether they be hit/run singles, extra base hits, and so on.

The Giants don't have a lot of LTP. But they make contact and get the hits needed to win. The Dodgers can keep spending, but they need to prove that they can get it done when the chips are down.

TheVulture
11-15-2012, 01:51 AM
If he's a garbage catcher, then he's useless in the catcher discussion even if he can hit.

Golden Sox
11-15-2012, 09:17 PM
I received my bill today to pay off the remainder of my 2013 Season Tickets. I noticed in the ticket brochure that there were numerous photos of White Sox players. There weren't any photos of Adam Dunn. You usually promote your season tickets with your star players for the upcoming season. Perhaps the White Sox think Dunn won't be on the team in 2013. I would like to think he won't be on the team in 2013. We'll see in a couple of weeks. The Winter meetings are coming up and I would think if the White Sox are going to make a major trade, it will happen then.

samurai_sox
11-15-2012, 10:17 PM
Arencibia is an interesting trade possibility but the Jays now have M. Izturis and E. Bonofacio to play second. They don't need Beckham.

Word is that Toronto is looking for another starter even after just getting Johnson and Buehrle,

Floyd for Arencibia? Would not mind that trade one bit.

mzh
11-15-2012, 10:35 PM
Word is that Toronto is looking for another starter even after just getting Johnson and Buehrle,

Floyd for Arencibia? Would not mind that trade one bit.
IIRC there was a rumor last winter that Floyd was going to Toronto for Deck McGuire and a few others. It's a square peg for a square hole.

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-15-2012, 10:37 PM
Scott Merkin ‏@scottmerkin
Hahn: "Things are starting to happen, conversations are getting a bit more substantive and offers are flying back and forth ... "

Scott Merkin ‏@scottmerkin
... Something could happen any time.”

Seems like Hahn is slightly more open than KW was, but who knows, maybe he's just saying what we all want to hear.

RowanDye
11-16-2012, 12:04 AM
Forget Arencibia, they should trade for Emilio Bonifacio.

Daver
11-16-2012, 02:41 AM
What do you think was the biggest contributor to keeping the White Sox out of the 2012 playoffs?

Ineffective pitching.

Daver
11-16-2012, 02:45 AM
Yeah it is. You play to score the most runs to win the game.


In baseball the other team controls the ball when you are offense, it is not an offensive sport, it never has been.

Frater Perdurabo
11-16-2012, 09:00 AM
Ineffective pitching.

Fair enough, but an honest person also would admit the Sox lost plenty of games in 2012 in which the hitting failed despite the Sox getting a great pitching performance.

Lip Man 1
11-16-2012, 12:31 PM
This past season the Sox lost 17 games where they allowed the opponent three runs or less.

Lip

doublem23
11-16-2012, 12:39 PM
This past season the Sox lost 17 games where they allowed the opponent three runs or less.

Lip

... and how does that compare to the rest of the league?

Stat's basically meaningless without any context.

Lip Man 1
11-16-2012, 02:12 PM
You sound like Kittle.

Not comparing anything, just answering Frater's point.

You can make of it whatever you will... all I know is that I couldn't care less how many games the Yankees lost like that (who made the playoffs) or the Tigers (who made the playoffs) or the A's (who made the playoffs)...all I care about are the White Sox.

You hold a team to three runs or less unless you are going up against an "ace" pitcher like say a Verlander or a Sabathia...you win the game. Period.

The Sox offense has been so inconsistent, so 'home run or nothing, so frustrating that they have lost a ton of these type games over the past decade.

All you have to do is see the results against a Royals staff this year that was among the worst in the league in a lot of categories to understand how this cripples the team.

I don't have the answer for it other than the Sox have to get better players, guys who don't hit .230, .250, .202...but that's easier said than done.

Lip

Mr. Jinx
11-16-2012, 02:50 PM
Ineffective pitching.

From the time when the Sox were up 3 games with 16 to go through the end of the season, the offense averaged 3.5625 runs per game, with 6 of those games scoring 2 or fewer runs. There were a total of 13 starting pitchers in the AL last year who had an ERA under that mark. So unless we are going to trot out the best pitching staff since the 90s Braves, I would blame lack of offense as the biggest contributor to the Sox' collapse that prevented them from making the playoffs.

SI1020
11-16-2012, 03:08 PM
The Sox offense has been so inconsistent, so 'home run or nothing, so frustrating that they have lost a ton of these type games over the past decade.

All you have to do is see the results against a Royals staff this year that was among the worst in the league in a lot of categories to understand how this cripples the team.

I don't have the answer for it other than the Sox have to get better players, guys who don't hit .230, .250, .202...but that's easier said than done.

Lip I agree with this and am willing to take some lumps for a few years while the Sox retool and go in a better direction offensively.

Foulke You
11-16-2012, 03:30 PM
Arencibia is an interesting trade possibility but the Jays now have M. Izturis and E. Bonofacio to play second. They don't need Beckham.
Bonafacio is a swing player and can play just about anywhere on the diamond. He is not a 2B only and I doubt Toronto is viewing him as such. He plays 3B, SS, 2B, and outfield. He gives Toronto a lot of trade flexibility if they still feel like wheeling and dealing because he can cover a lot of positions.

DSpivack
11-16-2012, 03:55 PM
Bonafacio is a swing player and can play just about anywhere on the diamond. He is not a 2B only and I doubt Toronto is viewing him as such. He plays 3B, SS, 2B, and outfield. He gives Toronto a lot of trade flexibility if they still feel like wheeling and dealing because he can cover a lot of positions.

They signed Melky Cabrera today, so he'll take up one of those corner OF spots.

Foulke You
11-16-2012, 03:58 PM
You mean the same David Ortiz who hit over .300 the last two years with OPS's of .953 and 1.024? Great comparison. The only thing he produced less of than Dunn the last two years was boos, groans, clinched chests and cool breezes.

This isn't 2004 David Ortiz we are talking about. The 2012 version is 37 years old, de-juiced, and hurt all the time. This Ortiz cannot play the field during interleague games and despite all of this, he got a 2 year extension for almost the same money Dunn is earning. I made the comparison based upon left handed hitting DHs making similar money to illustrate a point that GMs wouldn't hesitate to commit to 2 years of Dunn's salary to add left handed 40HRs, 100RBIs, and 100walks to their lineup. There aren't many left handed DHs with Dunn's power production. I stand by my comparison.

#1swisher
11-22-2012, 12:28 PM
Scott Merkins' Inbox

Pierzynski: The White Sox want Pierzynski back, and he has made it clear he wants to come back.

Flowers: If Flowers isn't penciled in as the team's starter or backing up Pierzynski, where a working bond has been formed, then he doesn't seem to really make sense with the White Sox.

Floyd: Teams win titles on pitching, so a valuable veteran hurler such as Floyd won't be given up because they have a perceived excess. It would indicate to me that the White Sox have the ultimate trust in the untested pitchers in their system, such as Andre Rienzo and Simon Castro, if Floyd is moved and no other veteran starter is added.

Morel: His back improved, to the point of Morel getting consistent at-bats with Triple-A Charlotte. Until Morel gets out on the field in February in Arizona, the White Sox won't totally add him into the equation.



http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20121119&content_id=40364550&vkey=news_cws&c_id=cws

shingo10
11-22-2012, 01:24 PM
Scott Merkins' Inbox

Pierzynski: The White Sox want Pierzynski back, and he has made it clear he wants to come back.

Flowers: If Flowers isn't penciled in as the team's starter or backing up Pierzynski, where a working bond has been formed, then he doesn't seem to really make sense with the White Sox.

Floyd: Teams win titles on pitching, so a valuable veteran hurler such as Floyd won't be given up because they have a perceived excess. It would indicate to me that the White Sox have the ultimate trust in the untested pitchers in their system, such as Andre Rienzo and Simon Castro, if Floyd is moved and no other veteran starter is added.

Morel: His back improved, to the point of Morel getting consistent at-bats with Triple-A Charlotte. Until Morel gets out on the field in February in Arizona, the White Sox won't totally add him into the equation.



http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20121119&content_id=40364550&vkey=news_cws&c_id=cws

Good stuff. Interesting about Flowers.

DonnieDarko
11-22-2012, 01:31 PM
I still want to know if Carlos Sanchez can play 3B.

floridafan
11-22-2012, 04:18 PM
I want to know how fast they will push Eric Grabe along. He has played 3rd base most of his life. And I think you will be surprised at his power numbers next season.

Although he was just in Rookie Ball, he is older, and can advance very quickly given the green light.

gosox41
11-22-2012, 10:13 PM
Scott Merkins' Inbox

Pierzynski: The White Sox want Pierzynski back, and he has made it clear he wants to come back.

Flowers: If Flowers isn't penciled in as the team's starter or backing up Pierzynski, where a working bond has been formed, then he doesn't seem to really make sense with the White Sox.

Floyd: Teams win titles on pitching, so a valuable veteran hurler such as Floyd won't be given up because they have a perceived excess. It would indicate to me that the White Sox have the ultimate trust in the untested pitchers in their system, such as Andre Rienzo and Simon Castro, if Floyd is moved and no other veteran starter is added.

Morel: His back improved, to the point of Morel getting consistent at-bats with Triple-A Charlotte. Until Morel gets out on the field in February in Arizona, the White Sox won't totally add him into the equation.



http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20121119&content_id=40364550&vkey=news_cws&c_id=cws


I hope Morel is able to come back healthy. I know we won't know until spring training, but I'd rather pay Morel $500K to hit 15Hr's and .240 with solid defense then gibe Youk the $10MM or so per year he'll get for similar numbers. Youk will have a better OBP but the Sox have other holes that can be filled with the $9.5MM saved.

palehozenychicty
11-23-2012, 02:47 AM
I hope Morel is able to come back healthy. I know we won't know until spring training, but I'd rather pay Morel $500K to hit 15Hr's and .240 with solid defense then gibe Youk the $10MM or so per year he'll get for similar numbers. Youk will have a better OBP but the Sox have other holes that can be filled with the $9.5MM saved.

Exactly. Youk has the veteran presence, but he isn't a reliable shot of run production anymore.

WLL1855
11-23-2012, 08:19 AM
I hope Morel is able to come back healthy. I know we won't know until spring training, but I'd rather pay Morel $500K to hit 15Hr's and .240 with solid defense then gibe Youk the $10MM or so per year he'll get for similar numbers. Youk will have a better OBP but the Sox have other holes that can be filled with the $9.5MM saved.

If Morel could provide this for a season I think I could live with it. The problem is that I'm not sure he's got the potential for it.

Frater Perdurabo
11-23-2012, 12:11 PM
If Morel could provide this for a season I think I could live with it. The problem is that I'm not sure he's got the potential for it.

I think he can produce that if he's healthy. It's not a matter of potential or talent, it's a matter of health.

JB98
11-23-2012, 01:23 PM
If Morel could provide this for a season I think I could live with it. The problem is that I'm not sure he's got the potential for it.

I don't think he does. I understand people not wanting to bring Youkilis back. Youk is a big injury risk in his own right, and he's asking for a lot of money. But the Sox have got to move on from Brent Morel. He hasn't shown me enough, even when healthy.

Golden Sox
11-23-2012, 04:21 PM
It looks like the Orioles are not going to bring back Mark Reynolds. Is he our third baseman for 2013? He's alot younger and cheaper than Youk. The bad thing is he's very similar to Adam Dunn. Alot of home runs with a low batting average and lots of strikeouts.

mzh
11-23-2012, 05:22 PM
It looks like the Orioles are not going to bring back Mark Reynolds. Is he our third baseman for 2013? He's alot younger and cheaper than Youk. The bad thing is he's very similar to Adam Dunn. Alot of home runs with a low batting average and lots of strikeouts.
No thanks. He's a god-awful 3rd baseman (Baltimore had to move him to 1st, and he was pretty bad there), and the last thing this lineup needs is another sub .250 hitting 3 outcome player.

balke
11-23-2012, 05:36 PM
I agree. Viciedo should be kept around. He'll get better and provide value at a good price point. This is even with arbi raises.


Sometimes you have to lose players in a trade for the greater benefit. You need value to get value.

I'm just wondering what this team wants to do going forward. I think we saw the peak of potential. If they want to get better - they might just want to get more pitching and build toward the future of Sale/Danks/Peavy/X/Quintana.

Rios is possibly at the highest value he'll ever be. Viciedo is young - but replaceable as far as outfielders go. I say move whoever - been sick of this team for a while. The Dunn era is a joke.

WhiteSoxNation
11-25-2012, 12:57 AM
As of now the only people I can honestly slate in stone into our line up are: A. Ramirez, A. Dunn, and P. Konerko....Everyone else is either undecided (C and 3B) or are in some type to trade talks.

I like our OF of Viciedo-DeAza-Rios, it above avg defensively and seemed to produce enough offensively. But I think we have two guys that can slide into Rios spot saving some salary and be productive.
We have several solid young OFs coming up, Thompson, Mitchell, Danks...but I'm very put off by the # of Ks thompson and mitchell rack up as speed guys.

I think C. Sanchez is our 3B/2B of the near future. Been high on Beckham since 09 but I think for 600,000 you ride him out one more year. Sanchez has NO power at all which is why some say he'll never play 3B, but that's a poor judgement on 3B production.

Catcher is deep also, flowers, phegley, smith...no superstars here though...

Our pitching is set.
danks, floyd, sale, peavy, quintana, santiago, thornton, crain, reed, jones, veal, axelrod.

Which looks pretty solid.

WhiteSox5187
11-25-2012, 01:24 AM
Sometimes you have to lose players in a trade for the greater benefit. You need value to get value.

I'm just wondering what this team wants to do going forward. I think we saw the peak of potential. If they want to get better - they might just want to get more pitching and build toward the future of Sale/Danks/Peavy/X/Quintana.

Rios is possibly at the highest value he'll ever be. Viciedo is young - but replaceable as far as outfielders go. I say move whoever - been sick of this team for a while. The Dunn era is a joke.

I am not saying that the White Sox should trade Dayan but I pretty much agree with your sentiment here. If I am Rick Hahn the only guy I wouldn't consider trading is Sale (though if for some reason the Angels wanted to trade Trout for Sale I would do that in heartbeat! :redneck)

Tragg
11-25-2012, 11:06 AM
As for trades, Viciedo hit 25 homers as a rookie - everyone knows his weak points (Ks, low OBP) but he was a rookie. We really want to dump him? Beckham doesn't hit, but he can field...we want to dump him (for peanuts), but bring Morel to 3rd? (we can move him to third). If we can spend some money for serious upgrades, then great. But selling low is a fools-game.
De Aza or Rios - I'm okay with selling high - just make sure we do it. No zeroing in on a team's #6 prospect off of a bad year like we did last year with Quentin and Santos.
But if we can't, find maybe one starter upgrade, and continue to improve the pen.

johnnyg83
11-25-2012, 11:42 AM
I am not saying that the White Sox should trade Dayan but I pretty much agree with your sentiment here. If I am Rick Hahn the only guy I wouldn't consider trading is Sale (though if for some reason the Angels wanted to trade Trout for Sale I would do that in heartbeat! :redneck)

The problem is the FA market for OFs is pretty deep. Why would I trade something good when I can get a deal?

cards press box
11-25-2012, 12:49 PM
The problem is the FA market for OFs is pretty deep. Why would I trade something good when I can get a deal?

Fair point. The only reason to deal someone like Dayan Viciedo for an outfielder would be to acquire a young superstar. I think the Sox, like most teams, would consider dealing Viciedo as part of a package to get Giancarlo Stanton, Mike Trout or Bryce Harper. Trout or Harper are, no doubt, going nowhere but maybe Stanton is.

mark1529
11-25-2012, 12:53 PM
As for trades, Viciedo hit 25 homers as a rookie - everyone knows his weak points (Ks, low OBP) but he was a rookie. We really want to dump him? Beckham doesn't hit, but he can field...we want to dump him (for peanuts), but bring Morel to 3rd? (we can move him to third). If we can spend some money for serious upgrades, then great. But selling low is a fools-game.
De Aza or Rios - I'm okay with selling high - just make sure we do it. No zeroing in on a team's #6 prospect off of a bad year like we did last year with Quentin and Santos.
But if we can't, find maybe one starter upgrade, and continue to improve the pen.

i'd like to see bacon get another shot at 3rd also.............

SCCWS
11-25-2012, 06:08 PM
3rd base tends to be a power position. Why would you move Beckham there when he is struggling offensively now. I think finding a 2nd baseman with some power would be harder than finding a 3rd baseman.

DonnieDarko
11-25-2012, 06:21 PM
3rd base tends to be a power position. Why would you move Beckham there when he is struggling offensively now. I think finding a 2nd baseman with some power would be harder than finding a 3rd baseman.

Or the Sox could move that Sanchez kid over to 2B and put Beckham at 3B. I mean, I think the Sox are looking at internal options at this point and there aren't many.

Frater Perdurabo
11-25-2012, 07:19 PM
Beckham will never be a Schmidt, A-Rod or even a Ventura, but if he ever gets rid of the hitch in his swing, he might be able to peak at the power of Joe Crede and thus be serviceable at the hot corner. That's not the worst thing in the world if the Sox can develop Sanchez into the switch-hitting, high contact, .280+ from both sides of the plate, speedy middle infielder who can hit second for the next decade.

Daver
11-25-2012, 07:25 PM
3rd base tends to be a power position.


I have always disagreed with this line of thinking, and I always will. I want a guy that can catch the damn ball and get it to first base accurately.

Tragg
11-25-2012, 08:13 PM
3rd base tends to be a power position. Why would you move Beckham there when he is struggling offensively now. I think finding a 2nd baseman with some power would be harder than finding a 3rd baseman.

Because the Sox have few options at 3B and there are usually many more options for 2B in the market.
If you figure Beckham can play either 2nd or 3rd, which he can, then you go out and find the best 2B or 3B that you can find.
Yes, the best 3B usually hit better than the best 2B, but those guys are rare and the Sox haven't had one since, well, Melton for a couple of years?

oldcomiskey
11-25-2012, 08:24 PM
Ventura and Crede both put up some good numbers---I dont remember who played 2b during the Ventura years (Durham)?--but Crede and Iguchi were about the same with the bat

Brian26
11-25-2012, 08:47 PM
Ventura and Crede both put up some good numbers---I dont remember who played 2b during the Ventura years
(Durham)?

Fletcher, Sax, Cora and then Durham.

--but Crede and Iguchi were about the same with the bat

Iguchi was much better at handling the bat and making contact, laying down a bunt, situational hitting, knocking the ball to the right side. Really, he's the best #2 hitter the Sox have had in the past two decades, even though it only last a couple of years. Crede had more power, but made contact less.

slavko
11-25-2012, 11:56 PM
Beckham will never be a Schmidt, A-Rod or even a Ventura, but if he ever gets rid of the hitch in his swing, he might be able to peak at the power of Joe Crede and thus be serviceable at the hot corner. That's not the worst thing in the world if the Sox can develop Sanchez into the switch-hitting, high contact, .280+ from both sides of the plate, speedy middle infielder who can hit second for the next decade.

Is everyone allowed more than four full years to get past "if and might?"

That halo's getting duller and duller. A kid's going to come along and he'll be benched and/or traded. Sanchez may be that kid.

Frater Perdurabo
11-26-2012, 07:12 AM
Is everyone allowed more than four full years to get past "if and might?"

That halo's getting duller and duller. A kid's going to come along and he'll be benched and/or traded. Sanchez may be that kid.

It took Crede a while to shorten his swing, but in that case patience was rewarded.

SCCWS
11-26-2012, 08:28 AM
Yes, the best 3B usually hit better than the best 2B, but those guys are rare and the Sox haven't had one since, well, Melton for a couple of years?

I agree with you if they find a 2nd baseman w some pop. My point is you cannot get another .230 hitter for 2nd and move Beckham.
Some of the better AL teams like NY, Boston, Texas, Detroit and probably now Baltimore all seem to have acquired or developed power at 3rd.

WhiteSoxNation
11-26-2012, 12:06 PM
Viciedo is a good LF/RF

Beckham was actually a better 3B than he was 2B.

If Beckham can play great 3B, Hit .270/15/70 that's fine for me at 3B.

LF- Viciedo
SS- Ramirez
1B- Konerko
DH- Dunn
2B/3B- Beckham
2B/3B- Sanchez
CF- DeAza
I'll take into next year......move rios, get a catcher. Napoli would be nice.

WhiteSoxNation
11-26-2012, 12:17 PM
Not to sound too "MoneyBall"

But the Sox simply don't get on base.....

.318 OB% TEAM

Our SS/2B combined for a .249/.290/.366

Once again I'm excited about our arms coming back though. I would attempt to move Floyd but the 9.5M is considered a deal in todays market.

Holes: C, 3B, 2B, (soon to be 1B/DH) if Paulie calls it quits soon.

I like Napoli to be in a Sox uni/ he can catch, DH, 1B.....Wouldn't pay more than 10M for him, he rarely plays more than 115-130 games

SCCWS
11-26-2012, 12:38 PM
Not to sound too "MoneyBall"

I like Napoli to be in a Sox uni/ he can catch, DH, 1B.....Wouldn't pay more than 10M for him, he rarely plays more than 115-130 games

Probably going to Boston to play 1B

Tragg
11-26-2012, 01:36 PM
Not to sound too "MoneyBall"

But the Sox simply don't get on base.....

.318 OB% TEAM

Our SS/2B combined for a .249/.290/.366
It would help the team immensely to have people on base when Dunn, PK and DV hit their homers.
But the Sox don't have an obp philosophy. Guillen preferred runner on 3rd, 1 out to runner on 2nd no out; and I"m not convinced this organization disagreed with him.

shingo10
11-26-2012, 02:16 PM
It would help the team immensely to have people on base when Dunn, PK and DV hit their homers.
But the Sox don't have an obp philosophy. Guillen preferred runner on 3rd, 1 out to runner on 2nd no out; and I"m not convinced this organization disagreed with him.

Meaning that he preferred to bunt? I think Robin kind of took the opposite approach this year and bunted less...whatever the stance though if you don't hit with RISP then it doesn't matter anyway.

doublem23
11-26-2012, 02:29 PM
It would help the team immensely to have people on base when Dunn, PK and DV hit their homers.

The Sox last year hit one of the lowest percentages of solo HR in the AL.

russ99
11-26-2012, 02:59 PM
The Sox last year hit one of the lowest percentages of solo HR in the AL.

A good first half by our bats skewed a lot of hitting numbers, look at RISP too.

And as they say, it's not how you start, it's how you finish. Most people doing projections weigh second half numbers as an indicator as to how the player will do the following season.

Tragg
11-26-2012, 06:03 PM
The Sox last year hit one of the lowest percentages of solo HR in the AL.

De Aza, Dunn and YOuk, our first 3, got on base a lot. I hope we can repeat that level of OBP we got from our top 3 - and preferably without Dunn, a 4/5 hitter, being one of them.
Youk slowed down, De Aza was injured and benched some, and then came the cave-in.

SOXSINCE'70
11-26-2012, 07:56 PM
Ventura and Crede both put up some good numbers---I dont remember who played 2b during the Ventura years (Durham)?--but Crede and Iguchi were about the same with the bat

Joey Cora played 2B most of Ventura's career here,IIRC.

SOXSINCE'70
11-26-2012, 07:58 PM
Fletcher, Sax, Cora and then Durham.


I stand corrected.But Cora came before Sax,IIRC.

Frater Perdurabo
11-26-2012, 10:33 PM
I stand corrected.But Cora came before Sax,IIRC.

Cora's (91-94) and Sax's (92-93) time on the Sox overlapped, but Sax really only played 2B during the 92 season.

SOXSINCE'70
11-27-2012, 08:58 AM
Cora's (91-94) and Sax's (92-93) time on the Sox overlapped, but Sax really only played 2B during the 92 season.

I remember Sax playing LF during the '93 season.It was a game against the Brew Crew.As I remember it, Robin won the game with a solo HR in the top of the 9th.:cool: Roberto Hernandez got the save in the bottom of the 9th.

Domeshot17
11-27-2012, 09:54 AM
Viciedo is a good LF/RF

Beckham was actually a better 3B than he was 2B.

If Beckham can play great 3B, Hit .270/15/70 that's fine for me at 3B.

LF- Viciedo
SS- Ramirez
1B- Konerko
DH- Dunn
2B/3B- Beckham
2B/3B- Sanchez
CF- DeAza
I'll take into next year......move rios, get a catcher. Napoli would be nice.

Thats fine, but since we are just making stuff up (because Beckham is not close to a .270 hitter) why not say if Viciedo can just become an average 3b, and hit .270/35/90 thats fine for me too?

Beckham's ONLY value is that he is a solid glove at 2b. By moving him to 3rd, you diminish his value immensely because 3b is not a defensive first position, but one that requires value both defensively and offensively.

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-27-2012, 11:28 AM
With all this talk of moving Beckham to 3B, I swear I remember reading a while back that Beckham said he was scared ****less to play 3B and that he didn't like it. So I doubt the Sox would do that to him again.

Lip Man 1
11-27-2012, 11:31 AM
Sox 70:

Sax did play some games in left field, that game at Milwaukee you are talking about came in 1993. He made a spectacular over the shoulder tumbling catch on a ball, started to lose it as he tumbled and caught it between his legs as he hit the ground, immediately holding it up to the umpire to show that he had it.

One of the best catches I ever saw.

Lip

SephClone89
11-27-2012, 11:32 AM
Beckham's ONLY value is that he is a solid glove at 2b. By moving him to 3rd, you diminish his value immensely because 3b is not a defensive first position, but one that requires value both defensively and offensively.

Bingo. He also wasn't that good at third.

#1swisher
11-27-2012, 02:14 PM
Manto looks at leadoff man Alejandro De Aza and Gordon Beckham and sees players whose best seasons are ahead of them.

Beckham
Manto pointed out that Beckham had himself in a good place offensively at the season's finish and expects that same upbeat attitude to carry over into 2013."He'll be a both sides of the ball type of guy," Manto said. "He's going to be real good offensively. Sometimes it takes a little bit of a setback to get better."



DeAza
"He did a tremendous job leading off, but he definitely left himself room to improve," Manto said. "The only thing I see with him is when he learns how to bunt more, it will open up a lot of holes on the infield and he could become elite."


http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20121126&content_id=40422712&vkey=news_cws&c_id=cws

doublem23
11-27-2012, 02:37 PM
DeAza
"He did a tremendous job leading off, but he definitely left himself room to improve," Manto said. "The only thing I see with him is when he learns how to bunt more, it will open up a lot of holes on the infield and he could become elite."


:cuss:

I'm going to need a "FIRE ROBIN" tag around here pretty soon.

DonnieDarko
11-27-2012, 03:28 PM
:cuss:

I'm going to need a "FIRE ROBIN" tag around here pretty soon.

I know you don't like bunting, but I honestly do...in the right situations, and if you have the speed to beat out the throw to 1st. Both of which I know De Aza can do and has.

WhiteSox5187
11-27-2012, 03:32 PM
I know you don't like bunting, but I honestly do...in the right situations, and if you have the speed to beat out the throw to 1st. Both of which I know De Aza can do and has.

If De Aza can successfully lay down four bunt hits a year it will move the third baseman in more consistently and allow him to hit the ball in the hole in the left side more. I think that the third baseman hardly ever played in on De Aza.

DonnieDarko
11-27-2012, 03:35 PM
If De Aza can successfully lay down four bunt hits a year it will move the third baseman in more consistently and allow him to hit the ball in the hole in the left side more. I think that the third baseman hardly ever played in on De Aza.

That's what I'm saying. Be more of a bunting threat to bring in the 3B, and then shoot a grounder past him when he comes in.

Konerko05
11-27-2012, 03:43 PM
:cuss:

I'm going to need a "FIRE ROBIN" tag around here pretty soon.

The quote is from Jeff Manto.

He is not talking about purposely creating outs with sacrifice bunts. He is talking about bunting for a basehit, and putting the threat of a bunt in the defense's head to open more holes around the infield. If done correctly, this would actually help raise DeAza's AVG/OBP.

doublem23
11-27-2012, 04:52 PM
The quote is from Jeff Manto.

He is not talking about purposely creating outs with sacrifice bunts. He is talking about bunting for a basehit, and putting the threat of a bunt in the defense's head to open more holes around the infield. If done correctly, this would actually help raise DeAza's AVG/OBP.

This idea strike me as one that sounds great on paper but for practical purposes, is not all that great. It's akin to telling a pitcher struggling with his command to "just throw more strikes." Sounds great, right? Except that strikes, for obvious reasons, result in more hits allowed, more homers allowed, more runs allowed. You want quality from your players, not just quantity. The idea that De Aza is just going to start laying down beautiful bunts at age 29, which he will turn about a week into the 2013 season, seems a bit far fetched, not to mention, how many outs are we talking about giving up on non-successful bunt attempts? From the top of the order? Bunting for basehits works great when you have a burner who has absolutely no power to drive the ball (looking at you, Juan Pierre and Scott Podsednik) but effectively removing the bat from a player's hands with a bit of pop, the De Aza has displayed has always struck me as foolish.

Not to mention, I'm not even sure of how much a problem this really is. On ground balls, De Aza hit .268 last season, 30 points above the AL average, whereas on non-LD fly balls he hit .211, 10 points below the AL average. It would seem to me that the problem isn't necessarily in defensive alignment, but simply approach. Add to that, De Aza hit for more power than the AL average to the opposite field.

We'll see, Manto and Ventura are obviously much, much smarter baseball people than I, but ****, I really, really hate bunting.

Foulke You
11-27-2012, 06:01 PM
This idea strike me as one that sounds great on paper but for practical purposes, is not all that great. It's akin to telling a pitcher struggling with his command to "just throw more strikes." Sounds great, right? Except that strikes, for obvious reasons, result in more hits allowed, more homers allowed, more runs allowed. You want quality from your players, not just quantity. The idea that De Aza is just going to start laying down beautiful bunts at age 29, which he will turn about a week into the 2013 season, seems a bit far fetched, not to mention, how many outs are we talking about giving up on non-successful bunt attempts? From the top of the order? Bunting for basehits works great when you have a burner who has absolutely no power to drive the ball (looking at you, Juan Pierre and Scott Podsednik) but effectively removing the bat from a player's hands with a bit of pop, the De Aza has displayed has always struck me as foolish.

Not to mention, I'm not even sure of how much a problem this really is. On ground balls, De Aza hit .268 last season, 30 points above the AL average, whereas on non-LD fly balls he hit .211, 10 points below the AL average. It would seem to me that the problem isn't necessarily in defensive alignment, but simply approach. Add to that, De Aza hit for more power than the AL average to the opposite field.

We'll see, Manto and Ventura are obviously much, much smarter baseball people than I, but ****, I really, really hate bunting.
You have some valid points but I don't mind it as much when you aren't throwing an out away on a sacrifice. When the right situation presents itself, like a slow footed Miguel Cabrera playing extremely deep or someone like Verlander on his 5th straight scoreless innning, it can be a nice option to have in your pocket as a hitter. Many would-be pitching gems have been ruined by a leadoff bunt single. As Manto pointed out, it can also keep those infielders in close at the corners even when De Aza is not laying one down. I look at Kenny Lofton as the perfect example of a leadoff hitter who had some pop in his bat but also effectively used the bunt base hit as a part of his arsenal.

I disagree about a player not being able to learn new tricks at an older age though. Frank Thomas learned how to hit with an open stance in 2000 and had an MVP year largely because of the switch. Scott Podsendik learned the "butcher boy" play in 2009 (when he was 33) which is something he wasn't able to do even in the championship season of 2005. Paul Konerko learned how to hit to right field halfway through his career and became a better hitter, etc. A player isn't necessarily locked in to a particular set of abilities once they reach a certain age.

WhiteSoxNation
11-27-2012, 09:28 PM
Folks, Beckham is an average 2B man, who hits .240/15/60 in FULL seasons

He hit 16 bombs last year, decent pop for 2B. But he doesnt run well, doesnt get on base.

He's a nice 8-9 hitter in the AL at a postion where most other 2B man are near the bottom of the order anyway.

I say lets ride him out another year.

Also-
Leave Tank in the OF he's a solid outfielder who teams don't dare to run on.
Spend the $, move the pieces, go get us a 3B

soxfanreggie
11-27-2012, 09:34 PM
Viciedo is a good LF/RF

Beckham was actually a better 3B than he was 2B.

If Beckham can play great 3B, Hit .270/15/70 that's fine for me at 3B.

LF- Viciedo
SS- Ramirez
1B- Konerko
DH- Dunn
2B/3B- Beckham
2B/3B- Sanchez
CF- DeAza
I'll take into next year......move rios, get a catcher. Napoli would be nice.

I've been on us to get after a catcher for years. If we lose AJ, please go get a good catcher! Even if we keep him, let's plan for the future!

russ99
11-28-2012, 10:03 AM
Folks, Beckham is an average 2B man, who hits .240/15/60 in FULL seasons

He hit 16 bombs last year, decent pop for 2B. But he doesnt run well, doesnt get on base.

He's a nice 8-9 hitter in the AL at a postion where most other 2B man are near the bottom of the order anyway.

I say lets ride him out another year.

Also-
Leave Tank in the OF he's a solid outfielder who teams don't dare to run on.
Spend the $, move the pieces, go get us a 3B

I don't question that both Beckham and Viciedo could be placeholders for another year, and could improve in 2013. But there's two reasons why the Sox could think about moving them this offseason:

1) Improving the offense is going to be tough to do at other positions - Dunn, Konerko and Rios are pretty much locks to be here next year. De Aza has leadoff set, so where else can you add an improved bat?

The Sox have Morel and Flowers as a contingency at 3B and C and that would weaken the offense, not improve it. While I'd love to have A.J. and/or Youk back, those guys are getting older and starting to regress, so it would be status quo and just kick the holes in those positions down the road another year.

2) Both are increasing in salary. Beckham hits arbitration this year, and Viciedo is already at $2.75M with his bonus factored in and Boras will be looking for a bump in 2013. Teams won't buy into trading for their potential later on if the price tags get too much higher. It may be hard for Hahn to pass up a deal that gets us younger, cheaper and/or higher ceiling players back.

russ99
11-28-2012, 02:34 PM
Don't look now, but Chone Figgins just got released by the Mariners.

We need a 3B and Kenny loves reclamation projects and does usually end up with his "guys".

He'd fit right in with our crew of sub .240 hitters.

SoxSpeed22
11-28-2012, 02:52 PM
Figgins can't really hit anymore, but at least he can play multiple positions to give our guys some rest in the summer.

Foulke You
11-28-2012, 03:25 PM
Don't look now, but Chone Figgins just got released by the Mariners.

We need a 3B and Kenny loves reclamation projects and does usually end up with his "guys".

He'd fit right in with our crew of sub .240 hitters.



I don't follow the Mariners that closely but I know that the Figgins contract was a huge bust considering he was a really valuable player on the Angels. The M's certainly "bought high" on Figgins but overall, he was a really solid player in his career with LAA. Did he just pick up some bad habits in Seattle? Did he just age quicker than others and lose a step? Did he develop a mental issue like Adam Dunn in 2011? I'd like to hear from a WSI poster who can offer more insight on his fall. Inviting Figgins to Spring Training certainly wouldn't excite me as a fan but sometimes the Sox have success with reclamation projects. Hopefully, that is not Hahn's "plan A" for 3B.

WhiteSoxNation
11-28-2012, 09:58 PM
Figgins is not good. he's going on 35, coming off 2 horrid seasons at a big price tag.

I cant see the sox making a big splash at any of the remaining "good" FAs

I'd like Victorino or Bourn to give us a very good leadoff hitter but we have no room for them.

Not big on Napoli.

Swisher would be nice, but again, no where to play......We need 3B/C, Hahn has to be cooking up a trade involving one of our 6 starters right?

Chase Headley/D. Wright are ringing in my ears

shingo10
11-28-2012, 10:22 PM
Come on Hahn throw us a bone...something, anything. I'd even settle for a rumor right now.

RCWHITESOX
11-28-2012, 11:57 PM
Figgins is not good. he's going on 35, coming off 2 horrid seasons at a big price tag.

I cant see the sox making a big splash at any of the remaining "good" FAs

I'd like Victorino or Bourn to give us a very good leadoff hitter but we have no room for them.

Not big on Napoli.

Swisher would be nice, but again, no where to play......We need 3B/C, Hahn has to be cooking up a trade involving one of our 6 starters right?

Chase Headley/D. Wright are ringing in my ears

You have to be kidding. We can't find room for either Bourn or Victorino. Believe me the Sox can find room.

PorkChopExpress
11-29-2012, 12:07 PM
Figgins is not good. he's going on 35, coming off 2 horrid seasons at a big price tag.

I cant see the sox making a big splash at any of the remaining "good" FAs

I'd like Victorino or Bourn to give us a very good leadoff hitter but we have no room for them.

Not big on Napoli.

Swisher would be nice, but again, no where to play......We need 3B/C, Hahn has to be cooking up a trade involving one of our 6 starters right?

Chase Headley/D. Wright are ringing in my ears

We've got room. Just Move Viciedo back to 3B, and DeAza to LF (since he said he likes that position better than CF anyway). Yes, I know the general consensus is that Viciedo is not a good defensive 3B, and some here probably consider him the worst of all time, but in reality, he is probably just sub-par. Personally, I'll take that, if it helps the Sox get other pieces that will make the offensive machine work better. I'm still of the firm belief that it was the offense that killed us last year. Just out of curiosity, any of you stats guys out there have any idea how the Sox offense ranked in total number of 1-2-3 innings?

russ99
11-29-2012, 01:18 PM
We've got room. Just Move Viciedo back to 3B, and DeAza to LF (since he said he likes that position better than CF anyway). Yes, I know the general consensus is that Viciedo is not a good defensive 3B, and some here probably consider him the worst of all time, but in reality, he is probably just sub-par. Personally, I'll take that, if it helps the Sox get other pieces that will make the offensive machine work better. I'm still of the firm belief that it was the offense that killed us last year. Just out of curiosity, any of you stats guys out there have any idea how the Sox offense ranked in total number of 1-2-3 innings?

Remember when Carlos Lee played 3B? Viciedo at 3B would be like that. Subpar is putting it lightly. His bat (other than power) is still below average to average, it's not like we're hiding an all-star at that position like Miguel Cabrera. Bad idea.

If Youk or a trade for Headley doensn't work, there are also some lower cost FA options for 3B like Keppinger and Polanco who are good contact hitters and decent defensive players.

doublem23
11-29-2012, 01:45 PM
Remember when Carlos Lee played 3B? Viciedo at 3B would be like that. Subpar is putting it lightly. His bat (other than power) is still below average to average, it's not like we're hiding an all-star at that position like Miguel Cabrera. Bad idea.

If Youk or a trade for Headley doensn't work, there are also some lower cost FA options for 3B like Keppinger and Polanco who are good contact hitters and decent defensive players.

Carlos Lee has yet to play an inning of 3B at the MLB level so... no.

That said, I see no reason to move Viciedo, who has settled in as a competent defensive LF. The guy's been bounced around his entire minor league career, hopefully some stability in the field will help increase his production at the plate.

At any rate, I agree it is patently ridiculous to say the Sox have no space for a Bourn or Victorino type player. This is a team with Dewayne Wise as it's #4 OF. There's plenty of space.

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-29-2012, 02:26 PM
Come on Hahn throw us a bone...something, anything. I'd even settle for a rumor right now.

Ask and you shall receive!

JIM BOWDEN ‏@JimBowdenESPNxm
Rangers, Red Sox, White Sox, Angels are all "playing" on Mike Adams

DonnieDarko
11-29-2012, 03:54 PM
Ask and you shall receive!

...an RHP? C'mon, what this team needs is a damned Catcher and 3B.

Domeshot17
11-29-2012, 04:24 PM
What this team NEEDS is Jeff Keppinger. We need a high average guy who can keep the lineup moving.

De Aza
Keppinger
Rios
PK
Dunn
Tank
Flowers
Ramirez
Gordon

That is a pretty solid lineup right there

DonnieDarko
11-29-2012, 04:36 PM
What this team NEEDS is Jeff Keppinger. We need a high average guy who can keep the lineup moving.

De Aza
Keppinger
Rios
PK
Dunn
Tank
Flowers
Ramirez
Gordon

That is a pretty solid lineup right there

Keppinger WOULD be a nice fit, and would certainly help us at 3B offensively. How is he there defensively, though?

Also, the guy recently broke his fibula. I'm no doctor, but could he feasibly be ready in time for Spring Training?

SCCWS
11-29-2012, 06:15 PM
Keppinger WOULD be a nice fit, and would certainly help us at 3B offensively. How is he there defensively, though?

Also, the guy recently broke his fibula. I'm no doctor, but could he feasibly be ready in time for Spring Training?

Before he broke his fibula, he may have been 1 step faster than Paulie. It may be a dead heat now.

He will hit for a better average than Youk but with very little power for a 3rd baseman. Basically a singles hitter because of his speed. Better defensively than Youk.

Tragg
11-29-2012, 08:09 PM
Keppinger WOULD be a nice fit, and would certainly help us at 3B offensively. How is he there defensively, though?



Not good.

#1swisher
11-29-2012, 08:14 PM
Jon Heyman
Dodgers have emerged as a potential surprise suitor for a.j. pierzynski, who was terrific in 2012. http://cbsprt.co/StspLU (http://t.co/KB4m27Rh)

mzh
11-29-2012, 08:27 PM
Jon Heyman
Dodgers have emerged as a potential surprise suitor for a.j. pierzynski, who was terrific in 2012. http://cbsprt.co/StspLU (http://t.co/KB4m27Rh)
He was about an inch away from signing there in 2010 before the chairman put in a last minute call. Hope he does the same here.

WhiteSox5187
11-29-2012, 08:50 PM
Jon Heyman
Dodgers have emerged as a potential surprise suitor for a.j. pierzynski, who was terrific in 2012. http://cbsprt.co/StspLU (http://t.co/KB4m27Rh)

Russel Martin just signed with the Pirates so the Yankees will be looking for a catcher. I think that AJ is a much better fit for the Yankees and Yankee Stadium than for the Dodgers.

CoopaLoop
11-29-2012, 08:50 PM
Russell Martin just signed for two years 17.5 million.

It's been real Anthony John

#1swisher
11-29-2012, 09:00 PM
Russel Martin just signed with the Pirates so the Yankees will be looking for a catcher. I think that AJ is a much better fit for the Yankees and Yankee Stadium than for the Dodgers.

Jim Bowden
What are Yanks options now at catcher? FA: Napoli,Pierzynski Trade:Arencibia, Buck,Saltalamaccia,HSanchez,CSantana,Mauer,Conger, Valle,Joseph

DonnieDarko
11-29-2012, 09:00 PM
Welp. I guess that we're going to find out what kind of player Tyler Flowers really is.

Frater Perdurabo
11-29-2012, 09:33 PM
Jim Bowden
What are Yanks options now at catcher? FA: Napoli,Pierzynski Trade:Arencibia, Buck,Saltalamaccia,HSanchez,CSantana,Mauer,Conger, Valle,Joseph

The Yankees considering the rest of the league as their farm system makes me burn with a white hot rage, wishing an asteroid would destroy Yankee Stadium (during the offseason when it is empty of people), and the vault that keeps the Steinbrenner fortune.

#1swisher
11-29-2012, 10:08 PM
Ken Rosenthal
Source: #WhiteSox (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23WhiteSox&src=hash) exploring addition of starting pitcher, lower-end type at the right price. Would give them flexibility to trade Floyd.

DonnieDarko
11-29-2012, 10:18 PM
Ken Rosenthal
Source: #WhiteSox (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23WhiteSox&src=hash) exploring addition of starting pitcher, lower-end type at the right price. Would give them flexibility to trade Floyd.

This...doesn't make sense to me. The Sox supposedly have six starters already. Trading away Floyd would still leave them with five. Why bother going after another arm?

Only reason I can think of for doing this is that they don't trust Santiago or something.

shingo10
11-29-2012, 10:19 PM
Ken Rosenthal
Source: #WhiteSox (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23WhiteSox&src=hash) exploring addition of starting pitcher, lower-end type at the right price. Would give them flexibility to trade Floyd.


There we go! Some action finally...or at least the possibility of some movement.

If they don't find anything though, I think they have enough options that they could move Floyd anyway.

#1swisher
11-29-2012, 10:40 PM
Welp. I guess that we're going to find out what kind of player Tyler Flowers really is.


Mark Gonzales writes, several end-of-season comments by pitchers indicate they're just as content with Flowers behind the plate.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-chicago-white-sox-free-agent-catcher-aj-pierzynski-could-expect-interest-to-increase-soon-20121129,0,4911150.story

Lip Man 1
11-29-2012, 11:22 PM
Hahn on 3rd base situation. Says any major moves would require in essence shedding some payroll first, says if a deal is made it probably will involve the Sox trading some starting pitching.

This gets to the point about 'why trade pitching?' because if you deal Floyd and his salary it gives you some flexibility to add potentially a cheaper starting pitcher AND another piece somewhere else.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-chicago-white-sox-general-manager-rick-hahn-is-taking-a-patient-approach-entering-next-weeks-winter-20121129,0,6345762.story

Lip

TDog
11-29-2012, 11:59 PM
Russel Martin just signed with the Pirates so the Yankees will be looking for a catcher. I think that AJ is a much better fit for the Yankees and Yankee Stadium than for the Dodgers.

I don't know that Russell Martin would have signed with the Pirates if the Yankees really wanted him. And all last season, I thought they would be after Pierzynski in free agency because he looks like he would benefit from playing in Yankee Stadium. All of that is just speculation on my part, of course, but the Yankees are in the market for a regular starting catcher, and I don't believe it's because the Pirates forced them to change their plans. I don't see Francisco Cervelli getting the job. I certainly don't see Chris Stewart becoming the everyday starting catcher for the Yankees.

CoopaLoop
11-30-2012, 12:56 AM
Mark Gonzales writes, several end-of-season comments by pitchers indicate they're just as content with Flowers behind the plate.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-chicago-white-sox-free-agent-catcher-aj-pierzynski-could-expect-interest-to-increase-soon-20121129,0,4911150.story

I heard an interview with him on a podcast though: http://midwaymadness.com/2012/11/midway-today-episode-38/ and I thought him not really answering the question about Tyler Flowers' bat told you all you need to know about his future as an every day catcher. Hell he even compares him to a life long back up. (You have to fast forward through all the ND/USC stuff, I guess Gonzo is a USC guy?)

Problem for Flowers is this lineup is full of guys like him who cant get on base but have some pop.

Frater Perdurabo
11-30-2012, 07:21 AM
Maybe someone can refute me with a spray chart, but AJ seemed to homer to left-center as much as he did to right. (It seemed like more of his singles went to right, and a lot of his doubles were lined down the RF line.) Maybe the Yankees go after him hard, but I think AJ would benefit more from hitting in a lineup with other Yankees mashers, than necessarily from the shallow RF dimensions.

wassagstdu
11-30-2012, 08:33 AM
AJ should retire in a Sox uniform and maybe eventually manage the team.

russ99
12-02-2012, 04:25 PM
Thankfully the Winter Meetings start Monday

While Hahn has kept low-key in the media (a nice change from Kenny's annual "50 cents" speech) I'm sure he as a few things cooking.

SoxSpeed22
12-02-2012, 05:05 PM
I think Rick has been a little too quiet. Something might happen during the winter meetings.

#1swisher
12-02-2012, 09:08 PM
The Indians have been in consistent contact with the agent for Kevin Youkilis. Francona, based on his success with Boston from 2004 to '11, has opened doors for the Indians when it comes to dealing with agents and free agents. He has been working the recruiting phones.

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2012/12/cleveland_indians_working_the.html


Dan Hayes
One exec said White Sox & Phillies are the most aggressive in pursuit of third baseman. Here's a look at Sox options. http://bit.ly/SEmqmd (http://t.co/AznhAtMh)

CWSpalehoseCWS
12-02-2012, 09:21 PM
The Indians have been in consistent contact with the agent for Kevin Youkilis. Francona, based on his success with Boston from 2004 to '11, has opened doors for the Indians when it comes to dealing with agents and free agents. He has been working the recruiting phones.

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2012/12/cleveland_indians_working_the.html


Dan Hayes
One exec said White Sox & Phillies are the most aggressive in pursuit of third baseman. Here's a look at Sox options. http://bit.ly/SEmqmd (http://t.co/AznhAtMh)

I don't think the Sox are going to be able to resign Youk. Cleveland gives him the option to play 1B and rest up at DH every once in a while.

#1swisher
12-11-2012, 07:47 PM
Buster Olney
A very respected agent who is canvassing the catchers' market thinks that eventually, there will be a reunion of A.J. Pierzynski/CWS.

Frater Perdurabo
12-11-2012, 09:18 PM
Buster Olney
A very respected agent who is canvassing the catchers' market thinks that eventually, there will be a reunion of A.J. Pierzynski/CWS.

It makes too much sense for AJ to stay. He's seemingly not getting the offers he'd sought, and the Sox need a left-handed bat and catching help.

Although he wouldn't like it, and I wouldn't tell him this before signing him, I would sit AJ against LHP, because Flowers rakes LHP, and it will keep AJ's bat fresher and more productive against RHP.