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Lip Man 1
10-25-2012, 09:08 PM
Gonzo's story. Press conference Friday morning:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-1026-white-sox-chicago--20121026,0,1587582.story

Lip

Viva Medias B's
10-25-2012, 09:17 PM
Congratulations to Rick.

Boondock Saint
10-25-2012, 09:21 PM
Congratulations.

shingo10
10-25-2012, 10:16 PM
To Kenny: :gulp:


Don't care what anyone says about him, it was as exciting as hell to have someone who went for it as consistently as he did. Hope Hahn has some of those same instincts.

Oh yeah and thanks for 2005.

Noneck
10-25-2012, 10:20 PM
To Kenny: :gulp:


Don't care what anyone says about him, it was as exciting as hell to have someone who went for it as consistently as he did. Hope Hahn has some of those same instincts.

Oh yeah and thanks for 2005.

I kinda think Williams will still be involved and the guy above Williams.

samurai_sox
10-25-2012, 10:34 PM
I hope Hahn does a better job at drafting.

LoveYourSuit
10-25-2012, 11:01 PM
I kinda think Williams will still be involved and the guy above Williams.


Gar/Pax part II.

palehozenychicty
10-25-2012, 11:47 PM
Gar/Pax part II.

For real. Window dressing....

cards press box
10-25-2012, 11:58 PM
Gar/Pax part II.

I'm not so sure. I think that Hahn will take over the GM duties in actuality as well as in title. I expect that KW will spend more time with player development and, given his emphasis on high ceiling picks, that is a good thing.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
10-26-2012, 12:11 AM
Thanks, Kenny, for all you've done over the years. One of the most exciting GMs in Sox history in terms of going for the big prize and taking risks that sometimes panned out (Thome, Garcia) and sometimes didn't (Ritchie, Koch, Dunn ca. 2011).

Congratulations, Rick. You deserve a shot, and I'm glad it's with us.

Now get to work.

TDog
10-26-2012, 12:11 AM
Gar/Pax part II.

Is this Latin? (???/peace?) I don't understand your point.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
10-26-2012, 12:15 AM
Is this Latin? (???/peace?) I don't understand your point.

He's saying that he thinks Hahn is going to be the Gar Forman to KW's John Paxson, meaning that even though Hahn is the G.M., it's more of a figurehead spot, while KW will still be pretty much the G.M. when it comes down to actually making player/personnel decisions.

Which I think is false. I think this is Hahn's baby now, and while Kenny surely will still have input, the decisions will rest on Hahn's shoulders.

Lip Man 1
10-26-2012, 12:20 AM
Hahn is considered more conservative in his baseball approach than Kenny was.

Lip

rdivaldi
10-26-2012, 12:32 AM
If you've ever met Rick Hahn, you'd know that he's not anyone's lackey, he's taking over and will put his own stamp on the organization.

voodoochile
10-26-2012, 01:07 AM
For real. Window dressing....

You don't think Gar is lightyears better as a GM than Pax? :o:

voodoochile
10-26-2012, 01:09 AM
Hahn is considered more conservative in his baseball approach than Kenny was.

Lip

Well I think the Sox are entering a phase where they will have to take things back a notch financially and that means getting more out of younger cheaper players. The window they have left (if any) is closing fast. The next window will be a couple years away, but there's some promise in that window in terms of pitching if they can build a team around it.

DSpivack
10-26-2012, 03:02 AM
Hahn is considered more conservative in his baseball approach than Kenny was.

Lip

Well I think the Sox are entering a phase where they will have to take things back a notch financially and that means getting more out of younger cheaper players. The window they have left (if any) is closing fast. The next window will be a couple years away, but there's some promise in that window in terms of pitching if they can build a team around it.

More conservative meaning what, baseball or fiscally? In terms of drafting, the Sox used to be too conservative and not take enough risks on talent, no? Or just not taking on as many risky moves for veterans and via trades as KW has had?

Chrisaway
10-26-2012, 07:30 AM
From a short conversation I had with John Danks a couple of years ago outside the Palmer House. It sounds like Rick did most of the negotiating already.

GABP
10-26-2012, 08:59 AM
You don't think Gar is lightyears better as a GM than Pax? :o:

I sure haven't seen anything. Pax pulled the franchise out of a terrible hole, and all Gar has done is luck into a superstar.

TaylorStSox
10-26-2012, 09:12 AM
I always liked KW. He was kind of maverick and I liked that. I still think that to win as a mid-market team (which defines the Sox IMO) you have to take some risks and think outside the box. He definitely wasn't afraid to make some unorthodox moves. He struck out a lot, but hit a ton of homers.

rdivaldi
10-26-2012, 10:31 AM
More conservative meaning what, baseball or fiscally? In terms of drafting, the Sox used to be too conservative and not take enough risks on talent, no? Or just not taking on as many risky moves for veterans and via trades as KW has had?

You will not see the wild wheeling and dealing with Hahn. It's not like Hahn will be like Schueler, but he's definitely going to be more "boring" than KW.

russ99
10-26-2012, 10:38 AM
If you've ever met Rick Hahn, you'd know that he's not anyone's lackey, he's taking over and will put his own stamp on the organization.

I certainly hope so. We need a bit of a change moving forward.

Kenny has his strengths and weaknesses, I loved that he would more often than not go for it and persuade Jerry to make a move he wouldn't ordinarily do. I hope that he keeps that part of the gig.

Some of the other issues, like meddling with on-field management, being outspoken in the press, refusal to deal with certain agents, poor player development (especially pushing players not ready for the big leagues into full-time jobs) and poor return on some previously expensive investments hopefully will improve.

DeadMoney
10-26-2012, 10:52 AM
This is a bit of a weird day for the franchise as I'm not really sure how to feel. KW will obviously still be around, but won't have as much of his hand in the day-to-day stuff. I have to say though, I'm really looking forward to and excited about turning the page on KW's tenure as GM and the beginning of a new era.

And for those saying KW will still have control over decisions, I'd suggest you guess again. Hahn has had a number of opportunities for other jobs and other interviews. If he didn't think he was getting full control as GM, he wouldn't be here.

Noneck
10-26-2012, 11:15 AM
Hahn has had a number of opportunities for other jobs and other interviews.


What GM jobs did he turn down?

dickallen15
10-26-2012, 11:20 AM
This is a bit of a weird day for the franchise as I'm not really sure how to feel. KW will obviously still be around, but won't have as much of his hand in the day-to-day stuff. I have to say though, I'm really looking forward to and excited about turning the page on KW's tenure as GM and the beginning of a new era.

And for those saying KW will still have control over decisions, I'd suggest you guess again. Hahn has had a number of opportunities for other jobs and other interviews. If he didn't think he was getting full control as GM, he wouldn't be here.

Considering JR said KW has final approval of major baseball decisions, there really is no need for anyone to guess again. Hahn will be doing the GM job but KW is still his boss.

TaylorStSox
10-26-2012, 11:21 AM
What GM jobs did he turn down?

Somebody wrote an article a few years ago saying Hahn would be the next big thing. Since then, everyone thinks he's the most awesomest gm candidate to ever get his awesome on.

Noneck
10-26-2012, 11:21 AM
Considering JR said KW has final approval of major baseball decisions, there really is no need for anyone to guess again. Hahn will be doing the GM job but KW is still his boss.


And Reinsdorf trumps both.

DeadMoney
10-26-2012, 11:26 AM
What GM jobs did he turn down?

He turned down an opportunity to interview with the Pirates and took his name out of consideration for the Cardinals job (both in 2007). In 2008 the White Sox wouldn't let him interview with the Mariners. Then in 2010 and 2011 he interviewed for the Mets and Angels. All I'm suggesting is that if he felt like he wasn't getting full control here, he's a guy that will continue to get those opportunities. Even though the Mets and Angels jobs didn't work out, I'm confident that other jobs would've presented themselves to him.

Noneck
10-26-2012, 11:32 AM
He turned down an opportunity to interview with the Pirates and took his name out of consideration for the Cardinals job (both in 2007). In 2008 the White Sox wouldn't let him interview with the Mariners. Then in 2010 and 2011 he interviewed for the Mets and Angels. All I'm suggesting is that if he felt like he wasn't getting full control here, he's a guy that will continue to get those opportunities. Even though the Mets and Angels jobs didn't work out, I'm confident that other jobs would've presented themselves to him.

And as Gonzo said, completes five years of his candidacies as a GM in baseball circles. 5 years is a long time interviewing or not being allowed to be interviewed and coming up empty.

soxfanreggie
10-26-2012, 12:47 PM
Well I think the Sox are entering a phase where they will have to take things back a notch financially and that means getting more out of younger cheaper players. The window they have left (if any) is closing fast. The next window will be a couple years away, but there's some promise in that window in terms of pitching if they can build a team around it.

I agree with you here. Our best shot to win may be for Rios and Dunn to have great years and some guys like Beckham to step up.

I wonder if they're going to let AJ test the waters of FA and try things out with Flowers. This could be one position that really hurts us.

Chez
10-26-2012, 12:50 PM
"Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss."

FielderJones
10-26-2012, 01:15 PM
Sox official announcement

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20121025&content_id=40053584&vkey=news_cws&c_id=cws

russ99
10-26-2012, 01:42 PM
Kenny goes upstairs blaming the fans again. So predictable.

Hmmm. Maybe the reason we couldn't finish the deal could have something to do with poor talent evaluation (like the dollars wasted on Fukudome) and Jerry not wanting to spend?

hawkjt
10-26-2012, 01:46 PM
Hahn giving an interview on McNeil and Speigs right now.

Hahn: Has not really sunk in yet...lifelong goal coming to fruition.

How will it change his days at the Sox?

Less detail,more setting the tone for the organization.

Will Hahn have the final say?

To an extent,yes. He already has been making decisions,with consultation from Kenny and Jerry.

Draft? Change of philosophy? Not really, best player on the board still.
HS or college? Again...open-minded,but best prospect rules.

More emphasis on analytics? A blend. Adding some sabermetrics guys,but still a blend.
Hahn admits he is more of a numbers guy than Kenny,tho.

Is Kenny going to leave him alone?

Yes...man of his word...have worked together for long time...and knows that Kenny appreciates the role of the GM,and the need for autonomy.
They have disagreed in the past,and Kenny made the call,but now he will make the call....

Has Hahn passed on job opportunities waiting for the Sox?

Yes...possible opportunities, but nothing concrete...
Chicago is hometown,and it needed to be special to leave.
Wanted the Sox job.
Relationship with Robin Ventura?
Good,strong dialogue, communication is solid. Treats Robin as a peer when meeting.
Payroll? Budget meetings are ongoing this week. It will not drop due to ticket pricing discounts...so will be at least at the same level,but could go higher.

Ticket revenue vs total revenue? Ticket revenue is significant,along with ancillary related revenue....TV is solid....we have more than enough to win right now,tho.

End of interview.

SCCWS
10-26-2012, 01:56 PM
"while Kenny is allowed to focus even more on macro issues, talent evaluation and long-term planning for the organization."

I am not sure what "talent evaluation" means. I would think that is a GM responsibilty. If Hahn is in charge of scouting, what talent is Williams evaluating?

hawkjt
10-26-2012, 02:04 PM
The GM does not do much personal scouting...too busy.
Kenny's roots were in scouting.
So now, with Hahn doing GM work, Kenny will do more personal scouting than when he was the GM.

Its not like Kenny does not know player evaluation.

TheOldRoman
10-26-2012, 02:08 PM
Kenny goes upstairs blaming the fans again. So predictable.

Hmmm. Maybe the reason we couldn't finish the deal could have something to do with poor talent evaluation (like the dollars wasted on Fukudome) and Jerry not wanting to spend?Quote? Nothing in the article has him blaming fans or anything.

russ99
10-26-2012, 02:12 PM
Quote? Nothing in the article has him blaming fans or anything.

Sorry, picked that up via twitter. Other sources cut that part.

Linky (http://www.southsidesox.com/2012/10/26/3558480/officially-official-rick-hahn-is-the-new-gm)

Lip Man 1
10-26-2012, 02:30 PM
Gonzo's wrap story:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-new-soxs-gm-hahn-seeks-to-extend-williams-mission-20121026,0,4403572.story

Hahn talks about answering to JR and Kenny, also says he's not "overly optimistic" that Peavy and Youk will return or that the Sox will be big players in free agency.

It's going to be an interesting next few months.

Lip

TheOldRoman
10-26-2012, 02:42 PM
Sorry, picked that up via twitter. Other sources cut that part.

Linky (http://www.southsidesox.com/2012/10/26/3558480/officially-official-rick-hahn-is-the-new-gm)According to that article, thee only thing Williams said is that players maybe could have done a little better in August and September if the stadium was louder. He said "we tried" to build a level of fan energy and "we fell off". He goes on to say the Sox are looking for ways to increase the fan experience. There was no blaming the fans.

SI1020
10-26-2012, 03:05 PM
According to that article, thee only thing Williams said is that players maybe could have done a little better in August and September if the stadium was louder. He said "we tried" to build a level of fan energy and "we fell off". He goes on to say the Sox are looking for ways to increase the fan experience. There was no blaming the fans. I took it that way. It won't be the first time this has happened and it's gotten oh so tiresome. There aren't as many Sox fans as Cub fans and you're not going to get guaranteed lemming like support from the ones you have. So just deal with that and do your best to build good teams.

DrCrawdad
10-26-2012, 04:24 PM
According to that article, thee only thing Williams said is that players maybe could have done a little better in August and September if the stadium was louder. He said "we tried" to build a level of fan energy and "we fell off". He goes on to say the Sox are looking for ways to increase the fan experience. There was no blaming the fans.

I don't disagree with what KW said. I don't blame myself or other Sox fans. Could a packed house have helped the Sox? Sure. But in the end I think who failed were the Sox. The better team won the AL Central.

thomas35forever
10-26-2012, 04:46 PM
May the next era be as prosperous as the past one.

Lip Man 1
10-26-2012, 06:21 PM
Thomas:

In some ways the past 12 years was very prosperous...in other ways it was very frustrating.

Lip

Lip Man 1
10-26-2012, 06:27 PM
Just watched the tape of the press conference and I was struck by something Hahn said.

He was asked about the minor league system and acknowledged the reports on how 'bad' it was rated but then said (paraphrasing) that the Sox have spent money on it and it is doing the job that the Sox are expecting it do. He then talked about the function of the minor league operation in the Sox organization.

I'm guessing that if there's anyone out there who thinks the Sox are going to increase the number of teams, sign more scouts or increase the number of minor league players that's probably not going to be happening.

If my guess is true, I'm a little surprised. I just got the impression that Rick was more of a minor league / stat guy type than Kenny.

Also just FYI. Rick is going to be available on a conference call Tuesday to a select group of Sox web sites. I will be participating in the call and will have a report later that night.

I want to listen closely to what Rick has to say for the future and am going to ask him about the "second half blues" over the past decade...why he thinks this is continually happening and what he thinks is the solution.

Lip

Daver
10-26-2012, 09:08 PM
I'm guessing that if there's anyone out there who thinks the Sox are going to increase the number of teams, sign more scouts or increase the number of minor league players that's probably not going to be happening.

If my guess is true, I'm a little surprised. I just got the impression that Rick was more of a minor league / stat guy type than Kenny.


He is, but he also understands the business of baseball, and increasing money for scouting and player development deducts from the money spent on what pays the bills, White Sox fans will not go through the turnstiles to watch a lengthy rebuilding process. The name of the game is to put asses in the seats at 35th and Shields, and guys playing in Birmingham and Kannapolis are not going to accomplish that goal.

slavko
10-26-2012, 09:11 PM
Gar/Pax part II.

If you mean that the new guy will use more tact in dealing with the people who work for him than the old guy, you may have landed on an appropriate comparison.

And, this could be the other shoe falling in the Kenny/Ozzie matter of just a year ago.

Konerko05
10-26-2012, 09:40 PM
I took it that way. It won't be the first time this has happened and it's gotten oh so tiresome. There aren't as many Sox fans as Cub fans and you're not going to get guaranteed lemming like support from the ones you have. So just deal with that and do your best to build good teams.

Any time Williams mentions the word "fans," the same people keep whining that he's blaming them.

How many of these times have you interpreted his comments as so without him actually blaming the fans?

The Sox attendance this year was awful for a team in first place for the majority of the season. It doesn't matter who is to blame, and what the reasons were behind it. He is stating a fact. Less fans in stadium does take away an energy that is simply impossible for 15,000 die hards to create. He then states this an issue that needed to be addressed, and now it is being addressed.

What is the problem here? Should he act like everything is perfectly fine so he doesn't hurt some fans' feelings?

RCWHITESOX
10-26-2012, 11:51 PM
Hahn says now he probably will not be able to retain Peavy or AJ. He better have a great plan or it's going to be a long year. I'm pretty sure they will let Youk go as well; leaving a huge hole at 3B.I'm holding out hope for the best.

Mr. Jinx
10-27-2012, 12:30 AM
Any time Williams mentions the word "fans," the same people keep whining that he's blaming them.

How many of these times have you interpreted his comments as so without him actually blaming the fans?

The Sox attendance this year was awful for a team in first place for the majority of the season. It doesn't matter who is to blame, and what the reasons were behind it. He is stating a fact. Less fans in stadium does take away an energy that is simply impossible for 15,000 die hards to create. He then states this an issue that needed to be addressed, and now it is being addressed.

What is the problem here? Should he act like everything is perfectly fine so he doesn't hurt some fans' feelings?

And yet ironically the Rays continue to win games. And the Reds don't exactly have a rabid fan base either yet they somehow won the NL central over fan powerhouses like the Cardinals and Cubs.

And somehow teams like the Red Sox and Cubs didn't do anything even with that extra energy. If a bunch of professional players being paid millions of dollars need an extra boost to play better, well, we are in trouble then.

Lip Man 1
10-27-2012, 12:46 AM
Mr. Jinx:

You do make some good points in your post.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-1027-white-sox-williams-hahn-chicago--20121027,0,192390.story

Lip

Konerko05
10-27-2012, 01:00 AM
And yet ironically the Rays continue to win games. And the Reds don't exactly have a rabid fan base either yet they somehow won the NL central over fan powerhouses like the Cardinals and Cubs.

And somehow teams like the Red Sox and Cubs didn't do anything even with that extra energy. If a bunch of professional players being paid millions of dollars need an extra boost to play better, well, we are in trouble then.

Please show me where I said it is impossible for a team to win without a rabid fan base?

Please show me where Williams said it is impossible to win without a rabid fan base?

Please show me where I said extra energy will guarantee a playoff birth?

Please show me where Williams said extra energy will guarantee a playoff birth?

The article simply says, without even a quote from Williams, that Williams thought an energetic crowd could add some life to a tired team towards the end of the season.

The Williams quote says he wanted to get a level of energy found in some other big market stadiums. What is wrong with that? Why wouldn't he want that? Why wouldn't the players want that?

No one is saying that was the reason the White Sox fell short. But to act like the players are robots and will show no response whatsoever to a packed house going crazy for them on a September night is a little silly. I'm sure Williams, as a former player and someone who has been in a baseball stadium for the majority of his life, understands the effect the fans can have on a given night. Believe me, the players did not want to play in front of 15,000 while fighting for first place during the last few weeks of the season. None of the players are going to say it made them play worse, or that they needed the fans there to win, but I'm sure they were disappointed. Who knows, maybe it would have helped.

Nellie_Fox
10-27-2012, 01:05 AM
But to act like the players are robots and will show no response whatsoever to a packed house going crazy for them on a Sempter night is a little silly.Is Sempter just before Ocular?

Konerko05
10-27-2012, 01:13 AM
Is Sempter just before Ocular?

You got me.

russ99
10-27-2012, 08:52 AM
Any time Williams mentions the word "fans," the same people keep whining that he's blaming them.

How many of these times have you interpreted his comments as so without him actually blaming the fans?

The Sox attendance this year was awful for a team in first place for the majority of the season. It doesn't matter who is to blame, and what the reasons were behind it. He is stating a fact. Less fans in stadium does take away an energy that is simply impossible for 15,000 die hards to create. He then states this an issue that needed to be addressed, and now it is being addressed.

What is the problem here? Should he act like everything is perfectly fine so he doesn't hurt some fans' feelings?

It's the context.

That quote came after him stating his disappointment that the Sox couldn't turn all the days of them being in first place into more division titles. Meaning not only this season...

I like what I hear from Hahn, except on one point. Tyler Flowers should not be considered as an everyday catcher. He strikes out at an even larger rate than Viciedo and Dunn - we don't need another low average, all or nothing bat in the lineup, we have one too many of those now.

If A.J. cant be brought back, I hope the Sox can at least add a less expensive platoon catcher who can handle a bat.

Lip Man 1
10-27-2012, 10:49 AM
Russ:

I saw where the Mariners declined the option on Olivo a few days ago, so he is out there again. Remember Kenny had opened negotiations with his agent the last time A.J. was a free agent.

Lip

palehozenychicty
10-27-2012, 10:56 AM
You don't think Gar is lightyears better as a GM than Pax? :o:

He is. Don't get me wrong. I just wish that new blood was coming into management. I'm willing to see Hahn's power reach.

palehozenychicty
10-27-2012, 11:08 AM
He is, but he also understands the business of baseball, and increasing money for scouting and player development deducts from the money spent on what pays the bills, White Sox fans will not go through the turnstiles to watch a lengthy rebuilding process. The name of the game is to put asses in the seats at 35th and Shields, and guys playing in Birmingham and Kannapolis are not going to accomplish that goal.

They aren't going to watch a surprise contender either, so what's the difference? The team isn't getting enough talent on the position level to be in the playoffs.

tstrike2000
10-27-2012, 11:12 AM
Kenny goes upstairs blaming the fans again. So predictable.

Hmmm. Maybe the reason we couldn't finish the deal could have something to do with poor talent evaluation (like the dollars wasted on Fukudome) and Jerry not wanting to spend?

Fukudome wasn't good, but he also was a pretty minimal salary.

SI1020
10-27-2012, 12:21 PM
Any time Williams mentions the word "fans," the same people keep whining that he's blaming them.

How many of these times have you interpreted his comments as so without him actually blaming the fans?

The Sox attendance this year was awful for a team in first place for the majority of the season. It doesn't matter who is to blame, and what the reasons were behind it. He is stating a fact. Less fans in stadium does take away an energy that is simply impossible for 15,000 die hards to create. He then states this an issue that needed to be addressed, and now it is being addressed.

What is the problem here? Should he act like everything is perfectly fine so he doesn't hurt some fans' feelings? I don't disagree with you. I think attendance was very disappointing this year. Why add to an already bad situation? This ownership group has a long history of antipathy or perceived antipathy towards the fan base. So just shut up about low attendace, make nice, and do what you can to get more people into the park. The recent announced decrease in the price of some tickets is a start. There will always be the negative comparison to the team on the north side. They just have a lot more fans than we do locally, and especially nationally. The current ownership contributed to this imbalance. Anyway, to end this little rant, I don't wish to be lectured about attendance anymore. Let it go Sox management.

SaltyPretzel
10-27-2012, 02:12 PM
I don't disagree with you. I think attendance was very disappointing this year. Why add to an already bad situation? This ownership group has a long history of antipathy or perceived antipathy towards the fan base. So just shut up about low attendace, make nice, and do what you can to get more people into the park. The recent announced decrease in the price of some tickets is a start. There will always be the negative comparison to the team on the north side. They just have a lot more fans than we do locally, and especially nationally. The current ownership contributed to this imbalance. Anyway, to end this little rant, I don't wish to be lectured about attendance anymore. Let it go Sox management.

I like what he said here: http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/chi-hahn-confident-chicago-can-become-sox-town-again-20121027,0,5876592.story

Lip Man 1
10-27-2012, 02:35 PM
In other words more of the "we're Chicago's American League team..." philosophy.

That hasn't worked very well over the past 30 years and I suspect it's not going to work in the future.

The Cubs, in my opinion, ARE your competition Rick...you are both trying to get customers in a difficult economy with a limited amount of money to spend.

I've never understood that philosophy espoused by JR. If I'm a businessman I want to kill my competition, but that's just me.

Lip

WhiteSox5187
10-27-2012, 02:46 PM
In other words more of the "we're Chicago's American League team..." philosophy.

That hasn't worked very well over the past 30 years and I suspect it's not going to work in the future.

The Cubs, in my opinion, ARE your competition Rick...you are both trying to get customers in a difficult economy with a limited amount of money to spend.

I've never understood that philosophy espoused by JR. If I'm a businessman I want to kill my competition, but that's just me.

Lip

In terms of the stand point of on field talent, Hahn is right that we are not in direct competition with the Cubs. The GM shouldn't be making moves to one up the Cubs. The whole "We are Chicago's American League Team and not in direct competition with the Cubs" philosophy is a problem in terms of marketing but that's it. If Brooks said that I would be very worried. When Hahn says it, I don't mind it.

Lip Man 1
10-27-2012, 04:22 PM
5187:

It's all part of the same company isn't it? I see your point if it is simply 'on-field' however all this is interrelated.

The Sox need to be taking on the Cubs in all areas, instead their philosophy has been not to compete, in other words keep giving the city to them, and then they wonder in part where all the fans are.

Lip

Noneck
10-27-2012, 04:41 PM
The Sox had the opportunity after 05 and in my opinion did try to take over the city in 06. Well it didnt work out but instead of trying harder they started to back off after that. Now is another opportunity, the cubs should be in disarray for at least a couple years and the Sox should be going all out but they didnt this year and it looks like they wont in the future. They seem to be content taking their profit and watching the value of the team keep increasing. Rather than being hungry for more, they appear to be satisfied with what they already have.

Lip Man 1
10-27-2012, 07:52 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-1028-white-sox-ken-williams-chicago--20121028,0,4713270.story

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/chi-hahn-will-remove-sentimentality-from-decisionmaking-20121027,0,1710185.story

Lip

Hitmen77
10-29-2012, 02:32 PM
I'm late to this thread, but here's my reaction:

KW, thanks for 2005. It was a once in a lifetime thrill. I have enjoyed your aggressive style and ability to find hidden gems. However, a change is long overdue. The Sox organization under KW is built to win about 83 games and finish 2nd or 3rd year after year and make a surprise playoff appearance about once every 5 years or so. That's certainly better than being cellar dwellers, but it's not good enough. The farm system is still very low on talent. The emergence of Sale and Reed this year were encouraging, but this has still been a franchise that is overly reliant on using "scrap heap" pick ups and overpaying (salary) for a few veterans like Dunn and Peavy.

Williams used to be pretty decent at making trades that benefit the Sox. But, what was the last trade he made that had a long-term benefit to the competitiveness to this franchise? Unless I'm missing something, I have to go back 5 years to when he acquired Danks, Floyd, and Quentin. Maybe the Santos to Toronto trade will end up being another one....we'll see in a year or two. His trades for Youk and Myers this year were great and at least gave this team a shot this year, but that was stop gap. Neither of those guys are part of the long term picture of this team.

With attendance dropping dramatically over the last 5 years as the Sox string together 4 disappointing seasons in a row and not much internal talent on the horizon, something has to change. The Sox have a great opportunity now to build a stronger following in Chicago while the Cubs await the amazing Theo's multi-year rebuilding plan. If the North Siders ever do get their **** together while the Sox continue with the same mediocre plan, this franchise will really fall off the radar screen in Chicago.

That being said, I don't think that hiring Hahn and moving KW to team President will change much. Same people in charge with the same philosophy of how to build an organization from within. But, that's just my guess. Let's see what Hahn can do to finally make the Sox a perennial playoff team.

doublem23
10-29-2012, 02:37 PM
I've never understood that philosophy espoused by JR. If I'm a businessman I want to kill my competition, but that's just me.


Yeah, but isn't JR a self-made multimillionaire? He's probably not scrambling to read business pointers from anonymous posters on the interwebz.

WhiteSox5187
10-29-2012, 05:03 PM
Yeah, but isn't JR a self-made multimillionaire? He's probably not scrambling to read business pointers from anonymous posters on the interwebz.

While it is true that JR has made a lot money just because you have had success with a certain strategy in one field will mean that that same strategy in a different field. It is pretty clear that marketing the White Sox as "Chicago's American League Team" has failed and they have needlessly ceded a lot of ground to the Cubs which has hurt the White Sox as a brand.

Lip Man 1
10-29-2012, 05:40 PM
5187:

Well said.

------------------------------------------------

By the way Hahn's conference call with selected members of the web media for Tuesday has been cancelled. They are trying to reschedule something for later in the week.

I suspect the Giants sweeping Detroit and starting the time line for free agent declarations has something to do with this.

Lip

TDog
10-29-2012, 06:29 PM
While it is true that JR has made a lot money just because you have had success with a certain strategy in one field will mean that that same strategy in a different field. It is pretty clear that marketing the White Sox as "Chicago's American League Team" has failed and they have needlessly ceded a lot of ground to the Cubs which has hurt the White Sox as a brand.

I don't think the current ownership had any choice. Veeck marketed the White Sox in his second tenure as the South Side team. The current ownership marketed the White Sox as a Chicago team and in some bad years has done a better job at drawing fans than Veeck did in his best years.

Trying to crush the Cubs as competitors, whatever that means, wouldn't have made the White Sox more popular and probably would have been a marketing disaster. It certainly wouldn't have changed the dynamic of Cubs fans supporting their team at the gate while Sox fans make excuses not to go to the games, even in years when they are contiending.

central44
10-29-2012, 06:55 PM
If the Sox want to change their attendance issues, they need to establish a winning culture. Aiming to win 80+ games a year and sneak into the postseason is not the way to inspire a fanbase. Neither is being above average one year and bad the next.

The Cubs own the casual fan market in Chicago. That's just the way it is. Personally, i'm fine with that. I like pulling for the Sox because I wouldn't be content with the mediocrity that the Cubs settle for, and have loved having KW as GM because I know he wants to aim high and win championships every year. He hasn't always made the best moves, but I don't fault him for being ambitious.

I think that most people who follow the Sox feel that same way, and I know that if the Sox can win consistently the fans will get behind this team. It's going to take more than one good year though. It's going to take a string of years like 2010 and 2012, but it's also going to take regular postseason appearances. Whether they act like it or not, the White Sox play in Chicago, a huge market. They should own this division year after year and should never *not* be contending.

Falling apart in 2007 was a disaster for the Sox-undoubtely the worst season they could have had at the worst possible time. They were on the perfect course and gaining a ton of momentum. Now they have to start over and rebuild that momentum and that winning culture. 2012 was a good start, but they can't afford to take a step back in 2013 like they did in 2007, 2009, and 2011.

Lip Man 1
10-29-2012, 07:39 PM
Central:

Very true that the Sox enjoy advantages in the Central that the other teams don't.

Why they haven't been able to figure out how to pull off a run and own the division like Cleveland in the 90's and Minnesota in the 00's is the million dollar question.

It's all about winning and making the postseason.

Again the Sox are the only one of the original pre expansion 16 major league franchises to have never made the postseason in back to back years...despite the expanded playoffs since 1969, they haven't done even that.

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
10-29-2012, 08:15 PM
Given their market size in a division with three small markets, I think it is reasonable to expect the Sox should win the division, on average, once every three years or so, or three times in a given 10-year span. Given that, they should advance to the ALCS on average once every six years, and to the World Series once every 12 years. That extrapolates to one World Series championship every 25 years, and so I just don't think that is too unreasonable to expect as a fan.

DSpivack
10-29-2012, 08:35 PM
Given their market size in a division with three small markets, I think it is reasonable to expect the Sox should win the division, on average, once every three years or so, or three times in a given 10-year span. Given that, they should advance to the ALCS on average once every six years, and to the World Series once every 12 years. That extrapolates to one World Series championship every 25 years, and so I just don't think that is too unreasonable to expect as a fan.

I don't consider the Tigers a small market team, not under Mike Ilitch, anyway. Although I agree that it's not unreasonable to expect playoffs 1 of every 3 years.

doublem23
10-29-2012, 09:09 PM
Trying to crush the Cubs as competitors, whatever that means, wouldn't have made the White Sox more popular and probably would have been a marketing disaster. It certainly wouldn't have changed the dynamic of Cubs fans supporting their team at the gate while Sox fans make excuses not to go to the games, even in years when they are contiending.

Yes, agreed, the best way for the Sox to murder or... whatever... the Cubs is to just ****ing win. We all know our fans can't be bothered to show up, even for a pretty good team in the middle of a play-off hunt (see 2012) so the only thing the Sox can really do to inspire anything around here is go on an unprecedented, historic run of success unlike anything since the 1920s-1950s era Yankees. Anything else will be abject failure, because WHAT'S THE POINT OF WATCHING BASEBALL if you don't win the World Series every year???

doublem23
10-29-2012, 09:10 PM
I don't consider the Tigers a small market team, not under Mike Ilitch, anyway. Although I agree that it's not unreasonable to expect playoffs 1 of every 3 years.

Can't really call the Twins small market either considering their average ticket price was more expensive ours and their fans actually show up to the park.

DSpivack
10-29-2012, 09:17 PM
Can't really call the Twins small market either considering their average ticket price was more expensive ours and their fans actually show up to the park.

That makes me wonder what the TV revenue looks like for each team in the division. As for the answer to that, I have no idea.

Frater Perdurabo
10-29-2012, 09:38 PM
I don't consider the Tigers a small market team, not under Mike Ilitch, anyway. Although I agree that it's not unreasonable to expect playoffs 1 of every 3 years.

Can't really call the Twins small market either considering their average ticket price was more expensive ours and their fans actually show up to the park.

Given their owner, the Tigers are "big market," on par with us. KC and CLE definitely are "small market." MIN had a decent revenue stream with the new park, but after Mauer's contract they operate like a team in a "smaller market" than us.