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BainesHOF
10-13-2012, 09:09 PM
A.J. Pierzynski (A) – Career year with the bat and improved defensively.
Alex Rios (A) – The team’s MVP.
Donnie Veal (A) – Almost perfect versus lefties.
Jesse Crain (A-) – Reliable and effective most of the time, when healthy.
Nate Jones (A-) – The nice surprise was durable and effective.
Jake Peavy (A-) – Excellent stats with the exception of his record, which deserved to be much better.
Chris Sale (A-) – Terrific year.
Alejandro De Aza (B+) – A true leadoff hitter and quality defender.
Adam Dunn (B+) – Produced runs, but Ks and average still a problem.
Alexei Ramirez (B+) – Awesome defender who eventually woke up with the bat.
Addison Reed (B+) – Better than you could have expected, but shaky at times.
Brett Myers (B) – A valuable addition.
Dewayne Wise (B) – A nice pickup.
Gavin Floyd (B) – Respectable stats, but needs to win more.
Jose Quintana (B-) – Super start before he may have gotten tired.
Dayan Viciedo (B-) – Power and better-than-expected defense, but too many droughts.
Kevin Youkilis (B-) – Provided an incredible lift, but then faded.
Tyler Flowers (C+) – A serviceable backup with potential to do more with more time.
Paul Konerko (C) – Fell off a cliff after great start.
Hector Santiago (C-) – Hung in there through different roles.
Gordon Beckham (D+) – Great glove, terrible bat.
Jordan Danks (D) – One great homer and nothing else.
Philip Humber (D) – All downhill after his perfect game.
Francisco Liriano (D) – Very disappointing.
Orlando Hudson (D) – Temporarily plugged hole and then nothing.
Leyson Septimo (D) – In over his head.
Matt Thornton (D) – 10 losses out of the bullpen says it all.

Brian26
10-13-2012, 09:25 PM
Agree with you on everything except Alexei. He continues to decline with the bat. The numbers are bad. He gets a C.

central44
10-13-2012, 09:28 PM
Gavin Floyd should get a C. When he was bad, he was flat out awful, but he also had some decent games here and there. Pretty much the definition of a C

ohiosoxfan
10-13-2012, 10:23 PM
have to disagree with a few. . .
Crain - should be lower- not as dependable as his salary dicates

Peavy - is paid like an ace (see Verlander) pitched well but not ace-like

Sale - don't know how he doesn't merit an A

Paulie- C is too critical, yes, he struggled down the stretch, but I think injury prevented him from being as effective as he might have been. . . B or B-

Beckham saved a lot of runs with his defense, especially with DP's. Granted, his offense isn't where we liked or expected, have you looked at AL secondbaseman???? should be at least a C overall. .

That's my two cents worth. . .

Boondock Saint
10-13-2012, 10:50 PM
have to disagree with a few. . .
Crain - should be lower- not as dependable as his salary dicates

Peavy - is paid like an ace (see Verlander) pitched well but not ace-like

Sale - don't know how he doesn't merit an A

Paulie- C is too critical, yes, he struggled down the stretch, but I think injury prevented him from being as effective as he might have been. . . B or B-

Beckham saved a lot of runs with his defense, especially with DP's. Granted, his offense isn't where we liked or expected, have you looked at AL secondbaseman???? should be at least a C overall. .

That's my two cents worth. . .

1) Salary shouldn't factor in when grading performance. You either do well or you don't. So I disagree with you on Crain and Peavy.

2) Sale gets a lower grade because of a poor September. Can't blame him for running out of gas, but those games still count.

3) If by "down the stretch", you mean "half of the season", then I agree wholeheartedly on Konerko. If you're too hurt to produce, you're too hurt to play, and Konerko wouldn't acquiesce on that. He was a burden on the lineup for a long time, and he deserves blame for that.

4) Beckham was terrible at the plate, and very good on defense. I might have given him a C-, but that's really nitpicking when you're talking about a C- or D+.

LITTLE NELL
10-14-2012, 06:27 AM
Beckham gets a C+, great defense and his power numbers for a second sacker were not bad; 16 HRs and 60 RBIs. If he could hit .270 he would be dangerous.

Dunn gets a C+, a pathetic BA with either a HR or a K, a guy who hits 41 HRs should have 120 ribbies. Still an improvement over last year when he got an F minus.

Did not realize that Thornton lost 10 games.

All your other grades are hard to argue with.

SephClone89
10-14-2012, 09:15 AM
Gavin Floyd (B) – Respectable stats, but needs to win more.

Huh?

BainesHOF
10-14-2012, 10:54 AM
Huh?

Floyd's 4.29 ERA was good, especially as an American Leaguer. He allowed fewer hits than innings pitched and his strikeout-to-walk ratio was better than 2:1. He finished above .500 at 12-11, but, with his talent and even his stats, he should win more games. But that's pretty much the story of Floyd's career. He's good, but should be better.

SOXSINCE'70
10-14-2012, 11:25 AM
Agree with you on everything except Alexei. He continues to decline with the bat. The numbers are bad. He gets a C.

I'd give him a B- .

SOXSINCE'70
10-14-2012, 11:26 AM
Floyd's 4.29 ERA was good, especially as an American Leaguer. He allowed fewer hits than innings pitched and his strikeout-to-walk ratio was better than 2:1. He finished above .500 at 12-11, but, with his talent and even his stats, he should win more games. But that's pretty much the story of Floyd's career. He's good, but should be better.

I can only wonder what this team will be like with a healthy John Danks in 2013.God knows they could have used him in 2012. :(:

SephClone89
10-14-2012, 11:59 AM
Floyd's 4.29 ERA was good, especially as an American Leaguer. He allowed fewer hits than innings pitched and his strikeout-to-walk ratio was better than 2:1. He finished above .500 at 12-11, but, with his talent and even his stats, he should win more games. But that's pretty much the story of Floyd's career. He's good, but should be better.

You're taking data and coming to the complete wrong conclusion. You're finding other stats that suggest Floyd's decent, then saying "oh, well his K/BB ratio and ERA are fine, but his record isn't, so there must be a problem with Floyd as a pitcher!", rather than the more rational "well, his K/BB ratio and ERA are fine, but his record isn't...maybe win-loss record isn't that telling of a statistic."

soxfanreggie
10-14-2012, 12:10 PM
Grading versus pay or versus expectations going into this season are different things. For example, Dunn, Rios, and Peavy would have higher grades versus expectations from most of us - say B+, A, and A- going into this year versus say B-, B, And B- for how much they make. Someone like Sale or Veal would probably be an A in my book for both sides.

johnny bench
10-14-2012, 12:27 PM
2) Sale gets a lower grade because of a poor September. Can't blame him for running out of gas, but those games still count.


I agree with Sale's A-. I'm not so sure that Sale had a poor September as much as he didn't live up to the high expectations he created based on his excellence in the first 5 months of the season. In September, the Sox were 3-3 in games started by Sale.

doublem23
10-14-2012, 01:52 PM
I agree with Sale's A-. I'm not so sure that Sale had a poor September as much as he didn't live up to the high expectations he created based on his excellence in the first 5 months of the season. In September, the Sox were 3-3 in games started by Sale.

Agreed, honestly, I don't know how anyone looks at Sale's body of work this season and doesn't give him an A++. Without him, the Sox are probably well under .500.

SCCWS
10-14-2012, 01:59 PM
You're taking data and coming to the complete wrong conclusion. You're finding other stats that suggest Floyd's decent, then saying "oh, well his K/BB ratio and ERA are fine, but his record isn't, so there must be a problem with Floyd as a pitcher!", rather than the more rational "well, his K/BB ratio and ERA are fine, but his record isn't...maybe win-loss record isn't that telling of a statistic."


Floyd had one very good year, 2008 where he went 17-8 w a 3.84 era. For the last 4 years he has been a .500 pitcher who will give you 30 starts. However his ERA the last 2 years has jumped a little from 4.00 to 4.30. He is an average # 4 AL starter on a decent team.

doublem23
10-14-2012, 02:11 PM
Floyd had one very good year, 2008 where he went 17-8 w a 3.84 era. For the last 4 years he has been a .500 pitcher who will give you 30 starts. However his ERA the last 2 years has jumped a little from 4.00 to 4.30. He is an average # 4 AL starter on a decent team.

The point overall is that a pitcher's W-L record is kind of a pointless stat; Floyd may be .500 since 2009 but in that time, he's also had only 5 cheap wins (wins in non-QS starts) and 11 tough losses (losses in QS). The Sox bullpen has also lost more games where he was in line to win than the offense has come back to win games for him over that span.

Floyd's certainly had his struggles, but citing his W-L record doesn't really show anything of value.

SCCWS
10-14-2012, 02:38 PM
The point overall is that a pitcher's W-L record is kind of a pointless stat; Floyd may be .500 since 2009 but in that time, he's also had only 5 cheap wins (wins in non-QS starts) and 11 tough losses (losses in QS). The Sox bullpen has also lost more games where he was in line to win than the offense has come back to win games for him over that span.

Floyd's certainly had his struggles, but citing his W-L record doesn't really show anything of value.

I think 4 years or 120 starts is a decent sampling. Every starting pitcher is affected by the team around them. Pitchers on good offensive teams certainly have an advantage over those on weak teams. Those on teams with strong bullpens also have an advantage. But we are judging Gavin Floyd on the White Sox. He is 45-48 the last 4 years and his ERA has risen from his only good year at 3.84 to the 4.30 he has been the last 2 years. Chris Sale had the same offense and bullpen behind him as Floyd did this year and he put up huge numbers. I agree some guys, like Peavy this year, have good years and a lousy record. But 4 years takes out some of the numeric oddities.

If I was a betting person, Gavin Floyd will be a .500 pitcher next year as well if he stays on the White Sox.

doublem23
10-14-2012, 02:40 PM
I think 4 years or 120 starts is a decent sampling. Every starting pitcher is affected by the team around them. Pitchers on good offensive teams certainly have an advantage over those on weak teams. Those on teams with strong bullpens also have an advantage. But we are judging Gavin Floyd on the White Sox. He is 45-48 the last 4 years and his ERA has risen from his only good year at 3.84 to the 4.30 he has been the last 2 years. Chris Sale had the same offense and bullpen behind him as Floyd did this year and he put up huge numbers. I agree some guys, like Peavy this year, have good years and a lousy record. But 4 years takes out some of the numeric oddities.

If I was a betting person, Gavin Floyd will be a .500 pitcher next year as well if he stays on the White Sox.

No, I just pointed out that Floyd's record has been unfairly deflated by the team around him. The bullpen has blown more wins for him than the offense has come back to win and he's lost 2x as many games when he threw a quality start than games the Sox won when he did not. He's a .500ish pitcher more likely because the Sox are a .500ish team, not the other way around.

Frater Perdurabo
10-14-2012, 03:10 PM
No, I just pointed out that Floyd's record has been unfairly deflated by the team around him. The bullpen has blown more wins for him than the offense has come back to win and he's lost 2x as many games when he threw a quality start than games the Sox won when he did not. He's a .500ish pitcher more likely because the Sox are a .500ish team, not the other way around.

So he's a #3 on an average team; #4 on a playoff team; #2 on a lousy team. Innings eater. Meh.

doublem23
10-14-2012, 03:15 PM
So he's a #3 on an average team; #4 on a playoff team; #2 on a lousy team. Innings eater. Meh.

Basically, he's pretty much the same pitcher as Phil Hughes who the Yankees, the best team in the AL, had in their #3/#4 spot all year long.

russ99
10-14-2012, 04:09 PM
To me Viciedo and Beckham should have the same grade. Both going into the season with good potential, and both being huge disappointments.

I'd give each a C+/D-, a bit higher than I'd like for Beckham's defense and Viciedo's power which seem to be the only thing these guys can do consistently. And both with some of the worst approaches at the plate I've seen in supposedly major league regulars.

ChicagoG19
10-14-2012, 05:37 PM
A "D+" for everyone. They played better than people expected, but choked away a three game lead the last two weeks of the season.

34rancher
10-14-2012, 06:58 PM
No, I just pointed out that Floyd's record has been unfairly deflated by the team around him. The bullpen has blown more wins for him than the offense has come back to win and he's lost 2x as many games when he threw a quality start than games the Sox won when he did not. He's a .500ish pitcher more likely because the Sox are a .500ish team, not the other way around.

I think stats are vastly overrated except one. Wins and losses. All that matters is did you win or not. Don't cry me a sob story on lack of run support or pitching against. It's all about team. You can have the best WHIP, ERA, etc, but if team isn't winning really who cares?
What did the TEAM do when you started a game:
Sale: 18-11
Floyd: 16-13
Quintana: 12-10
League average: .504
Humber: 8-8
Peavy: 15-17
Liriano:5-6

As for position players, what a choke job after ASB when we fell in love with the home run and started uppercut swinging. How do the playoffs look from home? Outside of the best hitter in baseball, how are all those home run hitters doing in MLB. Just be consistent and hit the ball.

SephClone89
10-14-2012, 07:11 PM
I think stats are vastly overrated except one. Wins and losses. All that matters is did you win or not. Don't cry me a sob story on lack of run support or pitching against. It's all about team. You can have the best WHIP, ERA, etc, but if team isn't winning really who cares?
What did the TEAM do when you started a game:
Sale: 18-11
Floyd: 16-13
Quintana: 12-10
League average: .504
Humber: 8-8
Peavy: 15-17
Liriano:5-6

:facepalm:

eastchicagosoxfan
10-14-2012, 07:14 PM
I'd give Dunn a C- at best. His job on offense is to drive in runs. We had pretty good production from our lead-off man. The two hole was okay. I think Dunn left way too many ducks on the proverbial pond. Walks don't drive in runs unless the bases are loaded. 222 strikeouts means he saw plenty of good pitches to hit. 41 home runs is good. Only 19 doubles, and only 50 singles is terrible.

Frater Perdurabo
10-14-2012, 07:38 PM
I think stats are vastly overrated except one. Wins and losses. All that matters is did you win or not. Don't cry me a sob story on lack of run support or pitching against. It's all about team. You can have the best WHIP, ERA, etc, but if team isn't winning really who cares?
What did the TEAM do when you started a game:
Sale: 18-11
Floyd: 16-13
Quintana: 12-10
League average: .504
Humber: 8-8
Peavy: 15-17
Liriano:5-6

As for position players, what a choke job after ASB when we fell in love with the home run and started uppercut swinging. How do the playoffs look from home? Outside of the best hitter in baseball, how are all those home run hitters doing in MLB. Just be consistent and hit the ball.

Is this shtick? How can anyone argue that Peavy was worse than Floyd and Humber? What a joke.

SCCWS
10-14-2012, 07:39 PM
I think stats are vastly overrated except one. Wins and losses. All that matters is did you win or not. Don't cry me a sob story on lack of run support or pitching against. It's all about team. You can have the best WHIP, ERA, etc, but if team isn't winning really who cares?
What did the TEAM do when you started a game:
Sale: 18-11
Floyd: 16-13
Quintana: 12-10
League average: .504
Humber: 8-8
Peavy: 15-17
Liriano:5-6

.

HUH????? Under your theory, a starting pitcher who gets knocked out of the game in the first inning but the team comes back and wins the game gets credit. Or a starting pitcher who goes 7 innings and leaves with the score 8-8 and his team goes on and wins gets credit? You need to look at their wins/losses and ERA to get an evaluation of how someone is pitching. Why Humber looks better at 8-8 until you factor in his terrible ERA

Daver
10-14-2012, 07:43 PM
To me Viciedo and Beckham should have the same grade. Both going into the season with good potential, and both being huge disappointments.

I'd give each a C+/D-, a bit higher than I'd like for Beckham's defense and Viciedo's power which seem to be the only thing these guys can do consistently. And both with some of the worst approaches at the plate I've seen in supposedly major league regulars.

It was known going in that Beckham was not in the lineup for his bat, it was also known that Viciedo was a complete gamble all the way around, and it proved to be a losing gamble in the long run.

SephClone89
10-14-2012, 08:55 PM
To me Viciedo and Beckham should have the same grade. Both going into the season with good potential, and both being huge disappointments.

I'd give each a C+/D-, a bit higher than I'd like for Beckham's defense and Viciedo's power which seem to be the only thing these guys can do consistently. And both with some of the worst approaches at the plate I've seen in supposedly major league regulars.

It was known going in that Beckham was not in the lineup for his bat, it was also known that Viciedo was a complete gamble all the way around, and it proved to be a losing gamble in the long run.

I think we're being a bit harsh on Viciedo here. I'm not a huge fan, but he had a decent season for being a 23 year old in his first full season in the bigs. He destroyed lefties...in 2013 he has to prove that he's more than just a platoon player.

Daver
10-14-2012, 08:56 PM
I think we're being a bit harsh on Viciedo here. I'm not a huge fan, but he had a decent season for being a 23 year old in his first full season in the bigs. He destroyed lefties...in 2013 he has to prove that he's more than just a platoon player.

I would prefer not to see his return.

SephClone89
10-14-2012, 09:22 PM
I would prefer not to see his return.

I'll bite.

Just because of his defensive limitations? I can't think of anyone the Sox could replace him with who'd come close to his level of production.

Bob Roarman
10-14-2012, 09:22 PM
I would prefer not to see his return.

Seriously, what's there to lose? It was only his first season. How do you give up on a guy that fast?

Daver
10-14-2012, 10:07 PM
I'll bite.

Just because of his defensive limitations? I can't think of anyone the Sox could replace him with who'd come close to his level of production.

If those are the only limitations you see then we have far differing viewpoints. If you are going to concede defense for offensive production from a position, do it with a player that contributes more than just a power hitter. How many playoff games did the Sox win with Carlos Lee standing on the warning track in left field?

Konerko05
10-15-2012, 12:51 AM
If those are the only limitations you see then we have far differing viewpoints. If you are going to concede defense for offensive production from a position, do it with a player that contributes more than just a power hitter. How many playoff games did the Sox win with Carlos Lee standing on the warning track in left field?

You make such a compelling case, but let's wait and see if Viciedo can improve on his offensive production AND his defense in his second season at age 24.

But you're probably right, if Carlos Lee in LF didn't win any playoffs game with a completely different Sox team, it will be impossible for Dayan Viciedo. Especially with the new rules in place, where playoff victories are decided by the left fielder's resemblance to Carlos Lee.

Konerko05
10-15-2012, 01:08 AM
Oh, and Sale gets an A+ without question.

The kid went above and beyond what anyone could have ever expected from him. I don't care if his numbers dipped in the last month of the season. He was completely dominant the rest of the year. His dominance is the main reason we were even above .500.

Not to mention, the kid gave it his all and battled with whatever stuff his dead arm would supply him. If anyone noticed, he lost his really dominant stuff around the 100 game mark, but that didn't stop him beating the opponent by any means necessary. The last month was beyond his control, his stuff had dropped dramatically, which gives you an idea of how his arm must have felt compared to the beginning of the season.

He was a complete warrior, but unlike Peavy, he shut the opposition down when he needed to.

I feel like I'm rambling, but I guess I can't believe anyone thinks he deserves anything under an A+. He was a 23 year old in his first full season as a starter and he carried this broken down team on his broken down arm for the entire season.

I just hope his arm fully recovers and he starts the season with the same electric stuff he had during the first half of this past year. The Sox need to get some inning eaters around him so they can watch his workload a little better. I don't blame them for going for it all, it was just unfortunate Sale was the guy they had to rely on.

LoveYourSuit
10-15-2012, 07:45 AM
If those are the only limitations you see then we have far differing viewpoints. If you are going to concede defense for offensive production from a position, do it with a player that contributes more than just a power hitter. How many playoff games did the Sox win with Carlos Lee standing on the warning track in left field?

And Dyan Viciedo is half the offensive players C Lee was.

SephClone89
10-15-2012, 07:58 AM
And Dyan Viciedo is half the offensive players C Lee was.

Actually, at age 23(!) there isn't a massive difference.

Zisk77
10-15-2012, 10:55 AM
Got to disagree about a.j. improved defensively. I assume you mean throwing out runners. A.J. has thrown as he always has, bt our pitchers actually hold runners on now. A.J. Has greatly regressed defensively. Way too many passed balls. His age is catching up to him.

Disagree on Gordon being a D+. When your worst hitter hits 14 hrs and drives in over 60 its not a D + even though we expect more from him.

TDog
10-15-2012, 11:20 AM
Any 2012 report card that assigns a B+ to Adam Dunn and a C to Paul Konerko can't be taken serioursly.

JB98
10-15-2012, 12:29 PM
I think it is a mistake to assume Dayan Viciedo will never get any better.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't trade him. He's hardly untouchable. But you don't say "He is what he is" after just one full season in the big leagues.

34 Inch Stick
10-15-2012, 01:52 PM
Actually, at age 23(!) there isn't a massive difference.

and other teams won playoff games with Carlos Lee standing on the warning track

Foulke You
10-15-2012, 02:09 PM
Actually, at age 23(!) there isn't a massive difference.
Power numbers between Lee and Tank at age 23 are comparable. Carlos was a more refined hitter at his age though. Caballo hit for a higher average and far less Ks than Tank. However, Tank is still a very raw talent and it is a mistake to think one season tells the whole story on him. Maybe what we saw in 2012 is the type of hitter he will always be. However, I point to the adjustment Tigers CF Austin Jackson made from 2011 to 2012 to show how a young player can make adjustments and improve quickly at the big league level.

Carlos Lee 1999 Season (Age 23)
.293 Avg
16 HRs
84 RBIs
144 Hits
32 Doubles
72 Ks
13 BBs

Dayan Viciedo 2012 Season (Age 23)
.255 Avg
25 HRs
78 RBIs
129 Hits
18 Doubles
120 Ks
28 BB

LITTLE NELL
10-15-2012, 03:53 PM
Power numbers between Lee and Tank at age 23 are comparable. Carlos was a more refined hitter at his age though. Caballo hit for a higher average and far less Ks than Tank. However, Tank is still a very raw talent and it is a mistake to think one season tells the whole story on him. Maybe what we saw in 2012 is the type of hitter he will always be. However, I point to the adjustment Tigers CF Austin Jackson made from 2011 to 2012 to show how a young player can make adjustments and improve quickly at the big league level.

Carlos Lee 1999 Season (Age 23)
.293 Avg
16 HRs
84 RBIs
144 Hits
32 Doubles
72 Ks
13 BBs

Dayan Viciedo 2012 Season (Age 23)
.255 Avg
25 HRs
78 RBIs
129 Hits
18 Doubles
120 Ks
28 BB

I'm on the side that says Viciedo should improve with age, but he will need to learn the strike zone and cut down on that swing. Just hope that TCM isn't giving him any hitting tips. I also thought he did a fine job in LF, butchered a couple of plays but he sure beats Juan Pierre, can't forget that the Sox have moved him around like a ping pong ball from 3B to RF and now LF.

SephClone89
10-15-2012, 04:48 PM
I also thought he did a fine job in LF, butchered a couple of plays but he sure beats Juan Pierre, can't forget that the Sox have moved him around like a ping pong ball from 3B to RF and now LF.

Don't forget that he was briefly the Sox first baseman of the future, prior to Dunn and Konerko's signings.

Tragg
10-15-2012, 06:57 PM
DeAza is an absolute A. I don't know what you guys want.
I'd give Santiago a B.
Jones a B+
Wise a C (unless we are grading him in relation to the career- Wise; but then he'd deserve an A).
Tank a C+ - he's got to develop some plate discipline.

russ99
10-15-2012, 09:23 PM
I think it is a mistake to assume Dayan Viciedo will never get any better.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't trade him. He's hardly untouchable. But you don't say "He is what he is" after just one full season in the big leagues.

It's also a mistake to assume he's just going to "figure it out" and not continue to have the poor strike zone judgement/plate discipline/hacking swings after 711 big league at-bats.

That's 289 at-bats short of the much-quoted 1000 at-bats when you can assume you see what you get.

Not to mention a contract showdown coming with Boras within the next 1-3 offseasons.

Next year should certainly be telling.

JB98
10-15-2012, 10:19 PM
It's also a mistake to assume he's just going to "figure it out" and not continue to have the poor strike zone judgement/plate discipline/hacking swings after 711 big league at-bats.

That's 289 at-bats short of the much-quoted 1000 at-bats when you can assume you see what you get.

Not to mention a contract showdown coming with Boras within the next 1-3 offseasons.

Next year should certainly be telling.

True, but in general, this board is so eager to throw up its hands and give up on young players at the first sign of struggle, while at the same time complaining that the Sox never develop any young talent.

Your last statement is 100 percent correct. You can only learn to hit MLB pitching by facing MLB pitching. We'll see if Viciedo learned anything this year. Obviously, it would be nice to see him take a step forward in 2013, but there are no guarantees one way or the other.

At some point, the Sox do need to either develop or acquire some middle-of-the-order hitters, since the 2-6 spots in the lineup were all populated by the 30-and-over crowd this year.

One thing this season should have taught us all is we can no longer count on Paul Konerko to be the centerpiece of the offense. Paul has been so solid for us over the years, but he's going to be 37 next Opening Day and Father Time eventually catches up. Lots of injuries for Konerko this year and it obviously killed his production the second half.

Daver
10-15-2012, 10:55 PM
True, but in general, this board is so eager to throw up its hands and give up on young players at the first sign of struggle, while at the same time complaining that the Sox never develop any young talent.

Your last statement is 100 percent correct. You can only learn to hit MLB pitching by facing MLB pitching. We'll see if Viciedo learned anything this year. Obviously, it would be nice to see him take a step forward in 2013, but there are no guarantees one way or the other.

At some point, the Sox do need to either develop or acquire some middle-of-the-order hitters, since the 2-6 spots in the lineup were all populated by the 30-and-over crowd this year.

One thing this season should have taught us all is we can no longer count on Paul Konerko to be the centerpiece of the offense. Paul has been so solid for us over the years, but he's going to be 37 next Opening Day and Father Time eventually catches up. Lots of injuries for Konerko this year and it obviously killed his production the second half.

The White Sox spent three years developing Dayan Viciedo, with little improvement from what they signed in the first place, that's two more years than they gave Gordon Beckham. Interpret it how you will, I would prefer to chalk it up and move on.

JB98
10-15-2012, 11:07 PM
The White Sox spent three years developing Dayan Viciedo, with little improvement from what they signed in the first place, that's two more years than they gave Gordon Beckham. Interpret it how you will, I would prefer to chalk it up and move on.

Ehh ... you dislike him because he's not a good outfielder. He could hit 40 homers and drive in 130 runs and you would still want him gone.

You need offense to win in the American League, and the Sox don't have enough. And, yes, I know baseball is not an offensive sport. However, I just watched the worst defensive team in the league take a 2-0 lead in the ALCS yesterday.

sullythered
10-16-2012, 12:23 AM
The White Sox spent three years developing Dayan Viciedo, with little improvement from what they signed in the first place, that's two more years than they gave Gordon Beckham. Interpret it how you will, I would prefer to chalk it up and move on.

He improved every season, moving up the ranks in the farm system each year. He's 23, an appropriate age for a rookie season for most players, and had solid power numbers. To say he didn't improve over the last three years is just ignoring the evidence. If a guy puts up similar numbers in single A, then double A, then triple A, then the Majors, that is major year to year improvement.

SCCWS
10-16-2012, 07:48 AM
He improved every season, moving up the ranks in the farm system each year. He's 23, an appropriate age for a rookie season for most players, and had solid power numbers. To say he didn't improve over the last three years is just ignoring the evidence. If a guy puts up similar numbers in single A, then double A, then triple A, then the Majors, that is major year to year improvement.

He also has been bounced around defensively. In fairness, he really did not have many games played in left field before he was thrown out there. Learning to play a position for a young player at the major league level is not an ideal situation

SOXSINCE'70
10-16-2012, 08:02 AM
Any 2012 report card that assigns a B+ to Adam Dunn and a C to Paul Konerko can't be taken serioursly.

I think Konerko deserves a "B+". Dunn gets a "C-" from me.

TDog
10-16-2012, 12:28 PM
I think Konerko deserves a "B+". Dunn gets a "C-" from me.

That is pretty close to what I was thinking.

I probably would have given Dunn a D for 2012, but there were a couple of games that he won with clutch home runs. I was thinking C-. For an RBI man, he consistently had trouble with runners in scoring position. And it really hurt the White Sox.

A B or B+ is fair for Konerko. If you give him a C, you might have to give Dunn a D or D-. Konerko fell off after his wrist problems developed, and fell off more after his concussion. But if you knock him down to a C becasue he hit in the .240s with an OBP over .300 in August and September/October with only 9 home runs, how can you ignore Dunn hitting in the .180s with an OBP under .300 and 10 home runs in August and September/October?

JB98
10-16-2012, 12:30 PM
He also has been bounced around defensively. In fairness, he really did not have many games played in left field before he was thrown out there. Learning to play a position for a young player at the major league level is not an ideal situation

Agreed. The Sox have a habit of bouncing players around defensively. They've done it with both prospects (Beckham, Viciedo) and veteran players (Swisher, Rios). Even an experienced player can suffer offensively if he's asked to play a position where he's not comfortable.

And I disagree with the statement that Viciedo has not improved during his time with the Sox organization. Three years ago, Viciedo hit 12 home runs in 130 games at Birmingham. This year, he hit 25 home runs in 147 games with the White Sox.

How can someone possibly argue that he's not any better than he was when the Sox signed him? We can go back and forth on whether Viciedo will develop into a legitimate middle-of-the-order hitter at the major-league level. I think that's still an open question. To say he's the same guy or close to the same guy the Sox signed in 2008 is ridiculous on its face.

SoxSpeed22
10-16-2012, 01:04 PM
All I kept hearing during the offseason was how Viciedo was supposed to be the worst defensive outfielder in all of baseball. He still has some improving to do with getting good reads off the ball as well as taking better routes to the ball, but he made most of the plays that he was supposed to and he also prevented a fair share of runs, since third base coaches got the memo that Viciedo can throw guys out at the plate.
He has the ability to be a 30 home run hitter. He still has to understand pitchers setting him up but showed the ability to drive the ball the other way and hit the ball hard. I also think its absurd to say that Viciedo hasn't improved one bit.

Noneck
10-16-2012, 01:10 PM
He also has been bounced around defensively. In fairness, he really did not have many games played in left field before he was thrown out there. Learning to play a position for a young player at the major league level is not an ideal situation


The reason he was bounced from positions was because he was bad at the previous position. 3rd base was his, considering the Sox had no one to fill that position. 1st base was a stop gap because the Sox didnt know if PK would be signed and it was before they acquired Dunn. RF was before De Aza came into the picture and Quentin was on his way out. This is a guy that is not good at any position but was given all opportunities available because of his contract and his expectations as a hitter. His true position is still DH but that position is not available for a couple years.

doublem23
10-16-2012, 01:37 PM
The reason he was bounced from positions was because he was bad at the previous position. 3rd base was his, considering the Sox had no one to fill that position. 1st base was a stop gap because the Sox didnt know if PK would be signed and it was before they acquired Dunn. RF was before De Aza came into the picture and Quentin was on his way out. This is a guy that is not good at any position but was given all opportunities available because of his contract and his expectations as a hitter. His true position is still DH but that position is not available for a couple years.

Whatever the reason for him being forced from position to position doesn't mean it may or may not have affected his growth at the plate. And let's not pretend like Viciedo is the first kid to ever bounce around defensively in the minors while figuring out how to play; Mark Teixeira was drafted as a SS out of Georgia Tech, spent most of his time in the Rangers' MILB organization as a 3B, before ultimately moving to 1B, where he had blossomed into one of the premier defensive 1B in the league. Add to that, by almost any metric, and take that for what it's worth, Viciedo was consistely ranked as one of the best LF in the American League last year.

sullythered
10-16-2012, 02:52 PM
The reason he was bounced from positions was because he was bad at the previous position. 3rd base was his, considering the Sox had no one to fill that position. 1st base was a stop gap because the Sox didnt know if PK would be signed and it was before they acquired Dunn. RF was before De Aza came into the picture and Quentin was on his way out. This is a guy that is not good at any position but was given all opportunities available because of his contract and his expectations as a hitter. His true position is still DH but that position is not available for a couple years.

Viciedo was a perfectly adequate LF this season, and has the tools to develop into a good one. The mistakes he made were clearly his reads (primarily) and that can absolutely be attributed to it being his first year at the position. He has a plus plus arm for LF, and made some fantastic plays this year.

TaylorStSox
10-17-2012, 08:12 AM
Lots of bias in this thread, so I'll add my own.

Konerko was abysmal in the second half. He was really bad.

AJ's defense is abysmal. He improved at throwing runners out, but his pitch calling has really fallen off. He won't call pitches in the dirt because he can't block them. He can't move behind the plate anymore.

Viciedo's discipline has improved at every level. There's no reason to not believe he won't do the same here. His defense is adequate. Lee was much worse in LF.

Ramirez continues to be undervalued. He's an awesome defender and drives in runs.

Beckham isn't the defender most would lead you to believe, but he definitely did enough to earn another shot.

TheVulture
10-17-2012, 11:30 AM
To me Viciedo and Beckham should have the same grade. Both going into the season with good potential, and both being huge disappointments.



I don't see how Viciedo can be considered a disappointment. Hit fairly decently for a rookie, had a couple nice stretches and got his feet wet. I think it would be a little overboard to have expected him to come in and just put up all star numbers. At the beginning of the season, it was questionable whether he could even handle playing left field, and he proved to be more than adequate with probably one of the best arms in the league at the position. I'd consider that he kept his head above water at the plate and established himself as a surprisingly effective defender making his rookie season a success.

russ99
10-17-2012, 11:50 AM
I don't see how Viciedo can be considered a disappointment. Hit fairly decently for a rookie, had a couple nice stretches and got his feet wet. I think it would be a little overboard to have expected him to come in and just put up all star numbers. At the beginning of the season, it was questionable whether he could even handle playing left field, and he proved to be more than adequate with probably one of the best arms in the league at the position. I'd consider that he kept his head above water at the plate and established himself as a surprisingly effective defender making his rookie season a success.

He's not a rookie (again 711 AB over three seasons) and it's not the base numbers. It's his overall hitting approach and technique. And yes, he's been fairly good at the least important defensive position on the baseball diamond.

Way too many strikeouts and RISP situations given away. Way too many 1-2 and 0-2 counts giving the pitcher a distinct advantage. IMO, his head is well below water at the plate.

There's more to being an effective hitter than hitting an average number of home runs for the position. I know some of you love the long ball and are willing to give him a pass for that, but you don't for Dunn, and Viciedo is the same kind of hitter, without Dunn's plate patience and walks.

asindc
10-17-2012, 11:57 AM
He's not a rookie (again 711 AB over three seasons) and it's not the base numbers. It's his overall hitting approach and technique. And yes, he's been fairly good at the least important defensive position on the baseball diamond.

Way too many strikeouts and RISP situations given away. Way too many 1-2 and 0-2 counts giving the pitcher a distinct advantage. IMO, his head is well below water at the plate.

There's more to being an effective hitter than hitting an average number of home runs for the position. I know some of you love the long ball and are willing to give him a pass for that, but you don't for Dunn, and Viciedo is the same kind of hitter, without Dunn's plate patience and walks.

Dunn is 32 years old. Viciedo is 23. That is where the slack is being cut.

TheVulture
10-17-2012, 12:05 PM
I know some of you love the long ball and are willing to give him a pass for that, but you don't for Dunn, and Viciedo is the same kind of hitter, without Dunn's plate patience and walks.

That's because Viciedo is a young developing hitter batting at the bottom of the order while Dunn is designated hitter paid to hit in the middle of the lineup. I'll hand it to Dunn he had a strong first half, but once Konerko cooled off, Dunn was useless.

2nd half
Dunn: .199/.304/.427
Viciedo: .259/.305/.445

Obviously, Viciedo needs to improve his approach and learn to take a pitch. Plenty of 23 year old hitters have. Dunn, on the other hand, has to put up numbers worthy of the middle of the order, and he has shown he's not really capable. His first half would indicate at the least he has to have a very good hitter behind him to be effective.

sullythered
10-17-2012, 01:44 PM
He's not a rookie (again 711 AB over three seasons) and it's not the base numbers. It's his overall hitting approach and technique. And yes, he's been fairly good at the least important defensive position on the baseball diamond.

Way too many strikeouts and RISP situations given away. Way too many 1-2 and 0-2 counts giving the pitcher a distinct advantage. IMO, his head is well below water at the plate.

There's more to being an effective hitter than hitting an average number of home runs for the position. I know some of you love the long ball and are willing to give him a pass for that, but you don't for Dunn, and Viciedo is the same kind of hitter, without Dunn's plate patience and walks.
Phrasing it that way is very misleading. 543 of his 711 came this year. This was absolutely his first real year in the majors. He was, essentially, a rookie.

He will likely never be a great on base guy, but I certainly have seen enough of him, physically, to believe he will get a lot of extra base hits as he progresses. A .744 OPS isn't fantastic, but it is certainly reasonable for a 23 year old. It is superior to Magglio Ordonez's OPS in his first full season (at 24, mind you) and a little below Carlos Lee's OPS in his first full year.

And sure, LF is "the least important" position on the field, but Viciedo absolutely has the arm for RF, if they wanted to play him there.

Dayan Viciedo is a talented young man with a bright future. I don't know how anybody who has watched him can't see that. His limitations are not physical, therefor, they can be overcome. Whether he will develop further (as he has every year) remains to be seen. But the same could have been said for every player who has ever played the game.

thomas35forever
10-17-2012, 03:20 PM
I think Konerko deserves a "B+". Dunn gets a "C-" from me.
I have to agree with this. People see to forget Paulie was among the top 10 hitters in the AL for most of the year. That alone deserves at least a B grade. Yes, Dunn was among the HR and RBI leaders like he was paid to, but his tendency to strike out was often a liability at the worst possible times. It's literally home run or nothing for him. Anything else just doesn't happen. A C grade is about as high as he deserves to go.

sullythered
10-17-2012, 03:25 PM
I have to agree with this. People see to forget Paulie was among the top 10 hitters in the AL for most of the year. That alone deserves at least a B grade. Yes, Dunn was among the HR and RBI leaders like he was paid to, but his tendency to strike out was often a liability at the worst possible times. It's literally home run or nothing for him. Anything else just doesn't happen. A C grade is about as high as he deserves to go.
He walked 105 times.

thomas35forever
10-17-2012, 03:29 PM
He walked 105 times.
Okay, you have a point there, but that doesn't mask the fact that he still made me nervous as Hell when he came up in key situations, especially after everyone went cold.

Daver
10-17-2012, 10:05 PM
Ehh ... you dislike him because he's not a good outfielder. He could hit 40 homers and drive in 130 runs and you would still want him gone.

You need offense to win in the American League, and the Sox don't have enough. And, yes, I know baseball is not an offensive sport. However, I just watched the worst defensive team in the league take a 2-0 lead in the ALCS yesterday.

He's not that good an offensive player either, doesn't hit for average, doesn't know how to take a walk, strikes out a lot, not a threat on the basepaths if he does manage to get on, I really don't see why people put so much value into a ballplayer with very limited skills.

WhiteSox5187
10-17-2012, 10:27 PM
He's not that good an offensive player either, doesn't hit for average, doesn't know how to take a walk, strikes out a lot, not a threat on the basepaths if he does manage to get on, I really don't see why people put so much value into a ballplayer with very limited skills.

If he were 27 I would agree with you, but he is 23. Guys have been known to improve from when they were 23. I am not Dayan's biggest fan and I agree that he has a lot of places to improve on but I am not ready to give up on him yet.

sullythered
10-17-2012, 11:13 PM
He's not that good an offensive player either, doesn't hit for average, doesn't know how to take a walk, strikes out a lot, not a threat on the basepaths if he does manage to get on, I really don't see why people put so much value into a ballplayer with very limited skills.

See my earlier post about his OPS by comparison to Magglio and Carlos Lee, at his age. He has a quick bat and an accurate rocket arm. Those are two pretty big "skills."

JB98
10-17-2012, 11:42 PM
He's not that good an offensive player either, doesn't hit for average, doesn't know how to take a walk, strikes out a lot, not a threat on the basepaths if he does manage to get on, I really don't see why people put so much value into a ballplayer with very limited skills.

How am I putting so much value on him? It's not like I've compared him to Frank Thomas or something. I've even said in this thread it isn't clear yet whether he'll develop into a middle-of-the-order hitter at the major-league level.

I just think it is unfair to assume he is a finished product at age 23, especially since he has improved since joining the Sox organization.

Two years from now, he might be a good offensive player. And, as much crap as you and others give him for his defense, I'll take him in LF over Juan Pierre any day of the week. I'd take him over Carlos Quentin or Carlos Lee, too, from a defensive standpoint. As sully stated, an accurate, strong arm is an important skill in outfield play.

TDog
10-18-2012, 10:50 AM
Lots of bias in this thread, so I'll add my own.

Konerko was abysmal in the second half. He was really bad. ...
.

And yet, he was better than Dunn. And Konerko was also clearly better in hte first half of hte season than Dunn.

Dunn did walk a lot, but the funny thing is that he walked less as Konerko was less effective behind him in the order. Pitchers seemed to be giving him more to hit when he had less protection behind him.

Fans are putting too big an emphasis on walks and not enough emphais on hitting the ball and making contact. Dunn was the only player in the majors this year to walk more than 100 times, which seems odd enough, but he wasn't even close to the top 10 in on-base percentage. The better teams are doing more actual hitting when they hit.

Dunn strudk out more than he reached base (or rounded the bases) on hits and walks combined. And he had a dismal end to his season. That was the biggest problem in the White Sox lineup this year. Complain about Beckham, complain about Viciedo, complain about Konerko, but the regular who was weakest at driving in runners in scoring position was the hitter who was in the lineup because he is supposed to be a run producer.

doublem23
10-18-2012, 11:03 AM
Dunn did walk a lot, but the funny thing is that he walked less as Konerko was less effective behind him in the order. Pitchers seemed to be giving him more to hit when he had less protection behind him.


Nice way to work the stats, funny you didn't mention that he also struck out far less frequently in the 2nd half than 1st, even with Garbage Paul Konerko protecting him. So it's clearly not a case of pitchers just lobbing him meatballs and him swinging through them, as you'd apparently like us all to believe. His BABIP also dropped 36 points from .265 to .229, which could possibly indicate that, at least in part, some of his 2nd half struggles can just be chalked up to bad luck (or, if you want to continue your crazed, anti-Dunn fantacism, overly good luck in the 1st half).

TaylorStSox
10-18-2012, 12:32 PM
Nice way to work the stats, funny you didn't mention that he also struck out far less frequently in the 2nd half than 1st, even with Garbage Paul Konerko protecting him. So it's clearly not a case of pitchers just lobbing him meatballs and him swinging through them, as you'd apparently like us all to believe. His BABIP also dropped 36 points from .265 to .229, which could possibly indicate that, at least in part, some of his 2nd half struggles can just be chalked up to bad luck (or, if you want to continue your crazed, anti-Dunn fantacism, overly good luck in the 1st half).

The shift killed Dunn. I've actually never seen it work so well against a hitter.

Dunn being bad doesn't excuse Konerko from also being bad. PK had trouble getting the ball out of the infield.

TDog
10-18-2012, 02:30 PM
Nice way to work the stats, funny you didn't mention that he also struck out far less frequently in the 2nd half than 1st, even with Garbage Paul Konerko protecting him. So it's clearly not a case of pitchers just lobbing him meatballs and him swinging through them, as you'd apparently like us all to believe. His BABIP also dropped 36 points from .265 to .229, which could possibly indicate that, at least in part, some of his 2nd half struggles can just be chalked up to bad luck (or, if you want to continue your crazed, anti-Dunn fantacism, overly good luck in the 1st half).

My crazed anti-Dunn fascination is amazement that fans accept a sub-.220 hitter who struck out at a higher rate than any player in the history of the game with more than 600 plate appearances as part of a strong offense. Giving a positive interpretation to periphial stats does not change the fact that Dunn had an abysmal season. Only if you compare his 2012 to his 2012 can you consider Dunn to have even approached acceptabilty this year.

Dunn didn't even have a very good first half. Fans believed he did because he showed improvement over his first season in a White Sox uniform. And if Konerko was garbage in the second half, he was still a couple of notches above Dunn. You are behind the curve in baseball analysis if you are looking at on-base percentage to the exclusion of batting average because the more successful teams are getting players with higher batting averages contributing to higher on-base percentages.

Dunn didn't hit into bad luck, with a few exceptions and probably no more than anyone else on the team. And if he is hitting outs into the shift, he can't complain about hitting into bad luck because he is doing nothing to beat the shift.

If you are hitting below .220 and you strike out more than 220 times, you aren't an offensive force as much as you are a black hole in the lineup.

If you don't want an offense where everyone is trying to hit a home run every time up, you don't give big money to a defensive liability who tries to hit a home run every time up.

asindc
10-18-2012, 02:40 PM
The shift killed Dunn. I've actually never seen it work so well against a hitter.

Dunn being bad doesn't excuse Konerko from also being bad. PK had trouble getting the ball out of the infield.

All the more reason why the "Hulk Smash" approach to hitting needs some refiining. Hell, I wanted to see him lay down a few bunts to the left side when the shift was on until they adjusted. With his all-or-nothing approach, defenses had no reason to adjust.

TDog
10-18-2012, 04:59 PM
All the more reason why the "Hulk Smash" approach to hitting needs some refiining. Hell, I wanted to see him lay down a few bunts to the left side when the shift was on until they adjusted. With his all-or-nothing approach, defenses had no reason to adjust.

If Dunn had bunted for a few hits to beat the shift, the shift would have ended.

Konerko05
10-18-2012, 05:08 PM
If Dunn had bunted for a few hits to beat the shift, the shift would have ended.

No, it wouldn't have. A big reason Dunn has over 1000 walks in his career is because pitchers are scared he is going to hit the ball 500 feet. If pitchers are not scared to put Dunn on base via base on balls, they will definitely not be scared to put Dunn on base via bunt. Bunting essentially takes away Dunn's main strength as a hitter- putting runs on the board with one swing.

I have absolutely no problem with him driving the ball opposite field. There is no excuse for him not trying this more often. His opposite field swing isn't bad at all, and it does not limit him to a single.

TDog
10-18-2012, 07:46 PM
No, it wouldn't have. A big reason Dunn has over 1000 walks in his career is because pitchers are scared he is going to hit the ball 500 feet. If pitchers are not scared to put Dunn on base via base on balls, they will definitely not be scared to put Dunn on base via bunt. Bunting essentially takes away Dunn's main strength as a hitter- putting runs on the board with one swing.

I have absolutely no problem with him driving the ball opposite field. There is no excuse for him not trying this more often. His opposite field swing isn't bad at all, and it does not limit him to a single.

The shift is only exagerated on the infield. The shft only addresses singles. Outfielders shade Dunn to pull, but they don't put on an exaggerated shift. I would guess Dunn reached base on about three-quarters of his line drives, even with the infield clustered on the first base side of second base. If he hits line drives, it doesn't really matter what field he hits them to.

Dunn only lost singles hitting into the shift. Maybe a few doubles, but they would have been doubles he would have had to run out. That is all defenses are defending against when they employ the shift. If Dunn hits ground balls down the third base line, teams would adjust their defenses accordingly.

It is true, though, that if he is trying to hit to hit to the opposite field, he isn't trying to hit a home run. But often when he is trying to hit a home run, he is striking out.

Frater Perdurabo
10-18-2012, 08:02 PM
Lets say it more simply. If Dunn is going to strike out 200 times, he needs to hit 50 HRs and 40+ doubles.

doublem23
10-18-2012, 09:11 PM
Lets say it more simply. If Dunn is going to strike out 200 times, he needs to hit 50 HRs and 40+ doubles.

Since Dunn was nowhere near the top of the Outs Made in the AL, the strikeouts really don't matter.

And 50 HR, 40 doubles... That has happened... twice in AL history (Babe Ruth 1921, Albert Belle 1995). Might want to lower them standards.

Frater Perdurabo
10-18-2012, 09:30 PM
Since Dunn was nowhere near the top of the Outs Made in the AL, the strikeouts really don't matter.

And 50 HR, 40 doubles... That has happened... twice in AL history (Babe Ruth 1921, Albert Belle 1995). Might want to lower them standards.

We've been lowering standards for too long. We need to hold this organization and its players to higher standards.

doublem23
10-18-2012, 10:11 PM
We've been lowering standards for too long. We need to hold this organization and its players to higher standards.

:rolleyes:

Nice empty rhetoric.

Asking someone to have a season that is practically unprecedented in history isn't "raising standards." It's being a ****ing moron.

sullythered
10-18-2012, 10:24 PM
We've been lowering standards for too long. We need to hold this organization and its players to higher standards.

So the standards we should expect from an individual player is to have one of the few greatest offensive seasons in the history of the game?

Frater Perdurabo
10-18-2012, 10:33 PM
So the standards we should expect from an individual player is to have one of the few greatest offensive seasons in the history of the game?

OK, I exaggerated. But with that many strikeouts and that low of an average, he should hit for more power. Otherwise he's Rob Deer in a smaller park.

Frater Perdurabo
10-18-2012, 10:34 PM
:rolleyes:

Nice empty rhetoric.

Asking someone to have a season that is practically unprecedented in history isn't "raising standards." It's being a ****ing moron.

Thanks for the classy name calling invective. It makes your point so much more effective.

doublem23
10-19-2012, 12:34 PM
Thanks for the classy name calling invective. It makes your point so much more effective.

Adam Dunn needs to bat 1.000 next season OR HE'S A FAILURE

Frater Perdurabo
10-19-2012, 12:44 PM
Adam Dunn needs to bat 1.000 next season OR HE'S A FAILURE

Exaggerating to absurdity also is an effective strategy.

See my earlier reply. He needs to hit for higher average and/or more extra base hits. So many strikeouts, plus a lack of productive outs, plus such a low average, plus his defensive limitations, limits his effectiveness.

doublem23
10-19-2012, 12:51 PM
Exaggerating to absurdity also is an effective strategy.

Now you know how I felt when I saw someone saying a guy had to hit 50 HR and 40 doubles. Completely absurd standard to hold a player to.

TDog
10-19-2012, 02:44 PM
Adam Dunn needs to bat 1.000 next season OR HE'S A FAILURE

He didn't come close to that this year, and he was a miserable failure. Suggesting that he would be a failure even if he put up Miguel Cabrera numbers misrepresents the position of those who would prefer he didn't create a black hole in the White Sox lineup, which is exactly what a player who hits less than .220 and strikes out more than 220 in a season presents.

Boondock Saint
10-19-2012, 02:49 PM
He didn't come close to that this year, and he was a miserable failure. Suggesting that he would be a failure even if he put up Miguel Cabrera numbers misrepresents the position of those who would prefer he didn't create a black hole in the White Sox lineup, which is exactly what a player who hits less than .220 and strikes out more than 220 in a season presents.

Batting average doesn't win you games, RBI's do. He had 96 of those, best on the team.

TDog
10-19-2012, 05:52 PM
Batting average doesn't win you games, RBI's do. He had 96 of those, best on the team.

Hitting .212 with runners in scoring position, which Dunn did, loses. games. No other player on the White Sox, with RBI chances in at least 25 games, was as ineffective with runners in scoring position as Dunn.

Dunn led the team in RBIs because he had an overwhelming lead in RBI chances while driving himself in 41 times. As an RBI man, he had more to do with the Sox missing the postseaon than with the Sox contending.

TheVulture
10-19-2012, 06:30 PM
Let's look at it this way, aside from April and May of this year, Dunn has put up these numbers with the Sox:

.174/.298/.345

palehozenychicty
10-21-2012, 02:20 AM
Floyd's 4.29 ERA was good, especially as an American Leaguer. He allowed fewer hits than innings pitched and his strikeout-to-walk ratio was better than 2:1. He finished above .500 at 12-11, but, with his talent and even his stats, he should win more games. But that's pretty much the story of Floyd's career. He's good, but should be better.

At this point, Gavin is who he puts out annually. He's inconsistent, but consistently uneven. For the back of a rotation, that has value over 162 games.

Stop expecting him to be a No. 2 or 3, and he's fine.