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View Full Version : Ventura and Coaching Staff to Return in 2013


#1swisher
10-06-2012, 07:39 PM
Dan Hayes
Kenny Williams said you can expect Robin Ventura's entire White Sox[/URL] staff to return in 2013.
[URL="http://t.co/ABBRQuJA"]http://www.csnchicago.com/baseball-chicago-whitesox/whitesox-talk/Williams-White-Sox-coaching-staff-to-ret?blockID=784989&feedID=661 (https://twitter.com/search/?q=%23WhiteSox&src=hash)

Lip Man 1
10-06-2012, 09:10 PM
Expected...and hopefully Robin learned a few things along the way.

Lip

Brewski
10-06-2012, 09:38 PM
There seemed to have been a little firestorm on this site 10 days ago about his not returning when it became likely we'd miss the playoffs, but it died down after a few days. Good news.

Bigger fish than the White Sox found their bats go silent and wound up getting some unexpected weeks off. So we weren't the only ones.

Lip Man 1
10-06-2012, 10:07 PM
Brewski:

That's true but then again they probably weren't in first place for 117 days in the weakest division in the A.L. either.

Lip

Falstaff
10-07-2012, 02:32 AM
I think much of 2012 success compared to 2011 disappointment is thanks to the manager change. Somehow RV took the 2011 roster (minus Buerhle and John Danks!) and rode it almost to the playoffs. This was pretty unexpected and generally the Sox played over their heads (especially vs twins and indians) . Now come back next year with better players, same manager and the White Sox will kick axe. Mainly just get someone at 3rd who can hit and catch, see if you can move ADunn somehow, and hope the pitching stays healthy with return of Danks. And stop running out Sale for multiple 119 or so pitch games, no matter how tempting at the time. I expect big things from 2013 White Sox and if so may have to move back to the south side (55th Honore native) and start enjoying the club in person.

Konerko05
10-07-2012, 04:49 AM
I am happy about this.

I think the players really enjoy playing for Ventura.

SaltyPretzel
10-07-2012, 06:15 AM
I am happy about this.

I think the players really enjoy playing for Ventura.

Despite how the season ended, I enjoyed watching the Sox hitting the cutoff man and holding runners on base for once.

Madvora
10-07-2012, 07:22 AM
I think they earned a chance try it again. I have a feeling that the players would like playing for a guy like Ventura. This isn't a Bobby Valentine situation. From what I hear, he's a great guy. Ventura really killed all of the crap that went along with Ozzie Guillen by taking over and I'm happy about that.

Tragg
10-07-2012, 10:01 AM
Expected...and hopefully Robin learned a few things along the way.

Lip
Hope so.
He got strategically out-maneuvered several times during the season and, imo, seriously over-pitched Sale and kept Dunn intractable as the number 3 hitter, a place ill-suited for him (also, imo).
But, as said above, the players seem to like him.

BainesHOF
10-07-2012, 10:59 AM
Not being Ozzie is not good enough. Venutura managed one of the biggest collapses in franchise history. Many other managers have been fired for similar choke jobs down the stretch.

skobabe8
10-07-2012, 11:25 AM
Not being Ozzie is not good enough. Venutura managed one of the biggest collapses in franchise history. Many other managers have been fired for similar choke jobs down the stretch.

I'm not going to put forth the effort of looking it up, but if that was one of the biggest chokes in franchise history, the franchise hasn't had too many big chokes.

Soxman219
10-07-2012, 11:26 AM
Not being Ozzie is not good enough. Venutura managed one of the biggest collapses in franchise history. Many other managers have been fired for similar choke jobs down the stretch.

It was his first year though. If he does it again, then you might fire him.

Konerko05
10-07-2012, 11:47 AM
I'm not going to put forth the effort of looking it up, but if that was one of the biggest chokes in franchise history, the franchise hasn't had too many big chokes.

Yes, seriously. It wasn't like we had talent from top to bottom and we were expected to plow through the playoffs.

The White Sox were a border line team who did an amazing job of staying on top for the majority of the year.

I look at it more as sputtering out than choking. They just didn't have enough at the end. It hurts that they lost it so close, but it's a very long season.

Ventura obviously made some questionable moves, and a few of his moves might have even cost us a game or two, but every team/manager has these. For the last couple weeks, Ventura and the players on this team were throwing everything they had out there to try to pull it out and I appreciate that. It looked like the team was taped together, and trying to limp across the finish the line. Unfortunately, Detroit had more in their tank and passed us up.

This team had one starter who consistently won games. Sale (who was noticeably fatigued at the end of year) was basically the difference between a .500 team and a playoff contender. When that is the reality, I have a hard time using the word "choke" to describe what happened.

Lip Man 1
10-07-2012, 11:58 AM
Not being Ozzie is not good enough. Venutura managed one of the biggest collapses in franchise history. Many other managers have been fired for similar choke jobs down the stretch.

I'm certainly not advocating 'firing' Robin by any means but to the points raised about Sox collapses and firings, I can think of two right off the top of my head:

1967 = Stanky... fired in May of 1968.
2003 = Manuel... fired in the off season.

Lip

Daver
10-07-2012, 01:41 PM
I'm certainly not advocating 'firing' Robin by any means but to the points raised about Sox collapses and firings, I can think of two right off the top of my head:

1967 = Stanky... fired in May of 1968.
2003 = Manuel... fired in the off season.

Lip


Manuel was probably gone no matter what the performance was, he plain ran out of scapegoats after throwing Von Joshua under the bus while defending Nardi Contreas, and then throwing him under the bus six months later.

ChiSoxGirl
10-07-2012, 03:16 PM
I ♥ Robin and couldn't possibly be more thrilled about this news. :smile:

CoopaLoop
10-07-2012, 11:28 PM
Another year of bunts! :bandance:

Bucky F. Dent
10-08-2012, 07:39 AM
We were never up by more than three and a half games. How that constitutes a massive collapse of biblical proportions is really beyond my simple understanding.

russ99
10-08-2012, 08:32 AM
Good move to bring everyone back, but I hope Don Cooper got a not so subtle nudge to let Robin make the calls with the pitchers.

Pitching management was a mess all season. Yes, there were injuries, but starters and relievers alike were jumbled around all year with nobody getting consistent rest and/or roles.

SCCWS
10-08-2012, 08:54 AM
The media will tell us that Don Cooper is a highly rated pitching coach. But I struggle to list what pitchers have developed under Cooper to the point where they are considered top major league pitchers. I do think Cooper gets some credit for Buehrle's development even though he had a great year before Cooper became the pitching coach. But certainly Jenks, Floyd and Thornton are not top pitchers. I can't think of any pitchers that Coop developed that was traded or signed elsewhere. Gio obviously developed after he left. There must be some top pitcher that came up and developed under Coop but I can't think of one

Lip Man 1
10-08-2012, 10:56 AM
We were never up by more than three and a half games. How that constitutes a massive collapse of biblical proportions is really beyond my simple understanding.

Well Bucky they did go 4-11 in their final 15 games to lose a three game lead with slightly over two weeks remaining.

The collapse might not be of biblical proportions but it was bad...very bad. Perhaps you can suggest another adjective to use to describe it?

Lip

johnny bench
10-08-2012, 11:03 AM
I have no idea if the players like Ventura or not, but I hope they like playing for him because he is getting more out of them than the recent past. I'm glad that the Sox want Ventura back. It's remarkable how much better that this 2012 team played in comparison to the largely similar 2011 squad. Hitting, pitching and fielding are all markedly improved. And, it seems pretty clear that the failings of this year's team are due more to lack of depth in talent at all 25 roster spots than lack of performance by the team. We have a proven manager and field management team going into next year. Now the attention shifts from the dugout to the front office.

Tragg
10-08-2012, 12:33 PM
Well Bucky they did go 4-11 in their final 15 games to lose a three game lead with slightly over two weeks remaining.

The collapse might not be of biblical proportions but it was bad...very bad. Perhaps you can suggest another adjective to use to describe it?

Lip
Plus, three of the series losses were to poor, poor teams.

Konerko05
10-08-2012, 02:11 PM
The media will tell us that Don Cooper is a highly rated pitching coach. But I struggle to list what pitchers have developed under Cooper to the point where they are considered top major league pitchers. I do think Cooper gets some credit for Buehrle's development even though he had a great year before Cooper became the pitching coach. But certainly Jenks, Floyd and Thornton are not top pitchers. I can't think of any pitchers that Coop developed that was traded or signed elsewhere. Gio obviously developed after he left. There must be some top pitcher that came up and developed under Coop but I can't think of one

Chris Sale.

You can not just magically turn average to slightly above average talent into a top tier pitcher. He generally gets more productivity out of pitching talent than most pitching coaches.

Jenks was a top tier closer for a few years before his arm and body could no longer withstand throwing 100mph with a power curveball (among other things).

kobo
10-08-2012, 02:23 PM
The media will tell us that Don Cooper is a highly rated pitching coach. But I struggle to list what pitchers have developed under Cooper to the point where they are considered top major league pitchers. I do think Cooper gets some credit for Buehrle's development even though he had a great year before Cooper became the pitching coach. But certainly Jenks, Floyd and Thornton are not top pitchers. I can't think of any pitchers that Coop developed that was traded or signed elsewhere. Gio obviously developed after he left. There must be some top pitcher that came up and developed under Coop but I can't think of one
Who cares what a pitcher does once he leaves the organization? What matters is what happens with that pitcher while he's here and working with Cooper. For whatever reason Cooper seems to be able to get the most out of guys when they are here. Why are you basing the success of Cooper on whether a pitcher is considered a top pitcher? It's not his job to make every pitcher the best in the game, it's his job to maximize that pitcher's talent/ability to help the team. In my opinion, Cooper has done that more often than not.

amsteel
10-08-2012, 03:26 PM
All he had to do this year was not be Ozzie.

Next year the team's on field performance will be his performance metric.

TDog
10-08-2012, 03:28 PM
I'm certainly not advocating 'firing' Robin by any means but to the points raised about Sox collapses and firings, I can think of two right off the top of my head:

1967 = Stanky... fired in May of 1968.
2003 = Manuel... fired in the off season.

Lip

To build on Daver's point, Eddie Stanky's firing came in June of 1968, 79 games into the season with the White Sox 18.5 games out of first, ninth in the 10-team American League in the last year before divisional play. Stanky wasn't fired after the collapse of 1967, which involved losing the last five games. He wasn't fired in April after the Sox lost their first 10 games of 1968. It has been said that Stanky didn't relate well to black players. I don't know that that is documented. That may be an assumption people have made based on Stanky being one of the Dodgers who started a petition to keep Jackie Robinson off of the team.

The Sox never had a big lead in either 1967 or 2012. They never pulled away. The most notable collapses in baseball were the 1951 Dodgers (up 13 on August 11), 1969 Cubs (up 9 on August 16), 1964 Phillies (up 6.5 with 12 to play) and the 2012 Rangers (up 5 with 9 to play) did not fire their managers in the offseason.

Charlie Dressen went on to win pennants with the Dodgers in 1952 and 1953 after Leo Durocher's Giants beat him out in 1951. Durocher was midway through his 1972 season with before the his Cubs tenure reached critical mass (as with Guillen ifor the 2011 White Sox). Gene Mauch wasn't fired by the Phillies until 1968. And I don't see the Rangers firing Ron Washington anytime soon.

It's true that Washington went to the World Series for two straight years, and lost to teams the public underestimated. But Durocher and Mauch were managing long suffering teams that seemed to miss their window. Dressen was a rookie manager for a team that had never won a World Series.

There is no reason to blame Ventura for this year's White Sox collapse, blowing that three game lead with 15 to go.

And, really, I didn't see Ventura being outmaneauvered by other managers. There was a criticism from the start that he went too long with his starting pitchers, but I always believed that was to save the rookiie-heavy bullpen. I think he was good at getting the matchups he wanted. In the end, the players didn't execute. The wasted opportunities over the last two weeks was the result of players not executing. The problem wasn't with players bunting the go-ahead run to third where he could score on a fly ball, the problem was hitters striking out with the runner on third and not scoring him.

I don't think there is any problem with the manager and coaching staff, although the third-base coach did seem to be at the center of a lot of failures in September. I don't think there was anything Ventura could do differently with the pitching staff to keep pitching from running out of gas in late September. For example, the problem wasn't that Adam Dunn was hitting third, it was that he was in the lineup at all. If you have an offense that hits a lot of home runs, that strikes out a lot and doesn't hit for a high batting average, as opposed to an offense that makes solid, consistent line-drive contact, your offense is vulnerable to being shut down. Hitting isn't about OPS, its about hitting.

SCCWS
10-08-2012, 06:54 PM
Who cares what a pitcher does once he leaves the organization? What matters is what happens with that pitcher while he's here and working with Cooper. For whatever reason Cooper seems to be able to get the most out of guys when they are here. Why are you basing the success of Cooper on whether a pitcher is considered a top pitcher? It's not his job to make every pitcher the best in the game, it's his job to maximize that pitcher's talent/ability to help the team. In my opinion, Cooper has done that more often than not.

My point was that there is not a pitcher on this staff that Coop can claim as an example of someone he has developed into a good pitcher. I brought up other teams because some coaches develop pitchers only to see them sign big contracts elsewhere. During his Chicago tenure the Sox have finished in AL ERA: 4 ( 2003)-12-2-10-12-6-2-8-8-9-. So during the Cooper years the White Sox have on average finished as the 7th best team in the league ERA wise. That is average.

slavko
10-08-2012, 07:21 PM
My point was that there is not a pitcher on this staff that Coop can claim as an example of someone he has developed into a good pitcher. I brought up other teams because some coaches develop pitchers only to see them sign big contracts elsewhere. During his Chicago tenure the Sox have finished in AL ERA: 4 ( 2003)-12-2-10-12-6-2-8-8-9-. So during the Cooper years the White Sox have on average finished as the 7th best team in the league ERA wise. That is average.

This would be easier to accept if we had a way of equalizing for the ballpark factor. We play in a smallish home stadium. Don't misread me, I think Coop's a halo guy.

dickallen15
10-09-2012, 07:28 AM
This would be easier to accept if we had a way of equalizing for the ballpark factor. We play in a smallish home stadium. Don't misread me, I think Coop's a halo guy.

USCF has been a neutral park 2009-2011.

October26
10-09-2012, 07:54 AM
i ♥ robin and couldn't possibly be more thrilled about this news. :smile:

+1

SCCWS
10-09-2012, 08:16 AM
This would be easier to accept if we had a way of equalizing for the ballpark factor. We play in a smallish home stadium. Don't misread me, I think Coop's a halo guy.


Good point. Another factor is the quality of player Coop is given. If KW is not providing quality young pitchers like Sale, it is tough to make them into good ML pitchers.

russ99
10-09-2012, 08:38 AM
I don't think there was anything Ventura could do differently with the pitching staff to keep pitching from running out of gas in late September.

I do. Keep the rotation intact despite guys getting injured.

Seems that every other starter's spot got jerked around often to save innings off Peavy and Sale's arms. Had the other guys stayed on track, maybe we wouldn't have had so many 5 inning outings in September.

Also the bullpen was managed beyond poorly, though there's truth behind that it could have been due to so many rookies, Crane's injury and lack of performance at times by Thornton and Myers.

No real bullpen roles, except Veal's maddening one-hitter outings, putting closers in non-save situations, putting in different guys in the 7th, 8th and 9th inning pretty much every other game, and the rapid-fire pitching changes specifically in September killed any chance of these guys to get into a rhythm.

I hope next year there's a system in place and not our pitchers getting swapped around at (mostly Cooper's) whim.

Lip Man 1
10-09-2012, 10:27 AM
It has to be better as long as he doesn't use Septimo under ANY circumstances (despite what Cooper thinks...)

Lip

hawkjt
10-09-2012, 12:06 PM
If the Sox collapse was biblical,then Texas was even worse. They led their division by a healthy margin for the whole season,have back to back World Series talent augmented by a 150 million investment in a hot shot starter from Japan,and a payroll north of 150 million,and they lost 11 of their last 15 to make a quick exit from the proceedings.

Point is, collapse's like the Sox are fairly common. Last year it was the Braves and Red Sox.

I am glad that Robin and staff are back. Like any manager and staff,they made some mistakes,but overall, they did a great job squeezing everything out of their talent.

As for Russ's criticism's of the bullpen and rotation....sounds like Ozzie-mancrush sour grapes to me.
Between injuries to the vet pen guys,and a bunch of rookies in new territory at the end of the season, Coop and Robin had to go piecemeal...same with the rotation. When you are forced to roll the dice,you do not always win....nature of the beast.

TDog
10-09-2012, 12:23 PM
I do. Keep the rotation intact despite guys getting injured.

Seems that every other starter's spot got jerked around often to save innings off Peavy and Sale's arms. Had the other guys stayed on track, maybe we wouldn't have had so many 5 inning outings in September.

Also the bullpen was managed beyond poorly, though there's truth behind that it could have been due to so many rookies, Crane's injury and lack of performance at times by Thornton and Myers.

No real bullpen roles, except Veal's maddening one-hitter outings, putting closers in non-save situations, putting in different guys in the 7th, 8th and 9th inning pretty much every other game, and the rapid-fire pitching changes specifically in September killed any chance of these guys to get into a rhythm.

I hope next year there's a system in place and not our pitchers getting swapped around at (mostly Cooper's) whim.

There were times I disagreed with pitching moves Ventura made, but the pitching failures were moves that I agreed with as often as moves I disagreed with. I watch other teams play baseball, and I disagreed with other managers' moves as often as I disagreed with Ventura's. And fans have no idea, and for competeitive reasons shouldn't have any idea, about what is going on with how pitchers are feeling. Evey starter for Oakland this season was jerked around in the rotation, except for the one that was suspended for testing positive for performance enhancing drugs.

Fans can disagree with moves that go wrong. Sometimes it's second-guessing. Sometimes the results fulffill the fears. Complain that Ventura made the "wrong" move, but even the "right" move failed, maybe as much as the "right" move. You really don't know how things would have gone if Reed had started the ninth inning in the last game in Boston. Complain that Myers should have stayed in another inning, but that didn't work in the game against Tampa Bay that the Sox needed to win to stay in the race the last weekend of the season.

thomas35forever
10-09-2012, 12:52 PM
I know the end of the year was disappointing, but when all the Sox did was "collapse" in a mediocre division, I don't consider that grounds for dismissal. And besides, we never led by more than a few games anyway. Now if we actually did pull a Rangers this year, I might have thought about it, but even then, my opinion would have been sketchy at best. This coaching staff, for the most part, seems to have its act together without all the Ozzie drama. I'll be happy to welcome them all back to the dugout next year.

Tragg
10-09-2012, 04:11 PM
If the Sox collapse was biblical,then Texas was even worse.

Probably true.
But the chances of Washington returning, despite 2 WS appearances, are about 30/70 I'd estimate.

Saracen
10-09-2012, 04:18 PM
Probably true.
But the chances of Washington returning, despite 2 WS appearances, are about 30/70 I'd estimate.
Wash ain't going anywhere despite horribly managing this year - 5 guys who played 155 games, 7 guys who played 145 games. Those are records you don't want to have and obviously the reason they ran out of gas.

Robin did a fine job with mediocre talent and a mass of injuries all year. Glad he'll be back.

russ99
10-09-2012, 06:06 PM
If the Sox collapse was biblical,then Texas was even worse. They led their division by a healthy margin for the whole season,have back to back World Series talent augmented by a 150 million investment in a hot shot starter from Japan,and a payroll north of 150 million,and they lost 11 of their last 15 to make a quick exit from the proceedings.

Point is, collapse's like the Sox are fairly common. Last year it was the Braves and Red Sox.

I am glad that Robin and staff are back. Like any manager and staff,they made some mistakes,but overall, they did a great job squeezing everything out of their talent.

As for Russ's criticism's of the bullpen and rotation....sounds like Ozzie-mancrush sour grapes to me.
Between injuries to the vet pen guys,and a bunch of rookies in new territory at the end of the season, Coop and Robin had to go piecemeal...same with the rotation. When you are forced to roll the dice,you do not always win....nature of the beast.

Nothing to do with Ozzie, that stuff has passed. Its obvious that some of the rapid-fire pitching moves and leaning too hard on Coop were rookie mistakes. I'm hopeful that Robin will get it more right than wrong next year.

PalehosePlanet
10-09-2012, 06:39 PM
To build on Daver's point, Eddie Stanky's firing came in June of 1968, 79 games into the season with the White Sox 18.5 games out of first, ninth in the 10-team American League in the last year before divisional play. Stanky wasn't fired after the collapse of 1967, which involved losing the last five games. He wasn't fired in April after the Sox lost their first 10 games of 1968. It has been said that Stanky didn't relate well to black players. I don't know that that is documented. That may be an assumption people have made based on Stanky being one of the Dodgers who started a petition to keep Jackie Robinson off of the team.

The Sox never had a big lead in either 1967 or 2012. They never pulled away. The most notable collapses in baseball were the 1951 Dodgers (up 13 on August 11), 1969 Cubs (up 9 on August 16), 1964 Phillies (up 6.5 with 12 to play) and the 2012 Rangers (up 5 with 9 to play) did not fire their managers in the offseason.

Charlie Dressen went on to win pennants with the Dodgers in 1952 and 1953 after Leo Durocher's Giants beat him out in 1951. Durocher was midway through his 1972 season with before the his Cubs tenure reached critical mass (as with Guillen ifor the 2011 White Sox). Gene Mauch wasn't fired by the Phillies until 1968. And I don't see the Rangers firing Ron Washington anytime soon.

It's true that Washington went to the World Series for two straight years, and lost to teams the public underestimated. But Durocher and Mauch were managing long suffering teams that seemed to miss their window. Dressen was a rookie manager for a team that had never won a World Series.

There is no reason to blame Ventura for this year's White Sox collapse, blowing that three game lead with 15 to go.

And, really, I didn't see Ventura being outmaneauvered by other managers. There was a criticism from the start that he went too long with his starting pitchers, but I always believed that was to save the rookiie-heavy bullpen. I think he was good at getting the matchups he wanted. In the end, the players didn't execute. The wasted opportunities over the last two weeks was the result of players not executing. The problem wasn't with players bunting the go-ahead run to third where he could score on a fly ball, the problem was hitters striking out with the runner on third and not scoring him.

I don't think there is any problem with the manager and coaching staff, although the third-base coach did seem to be at the center of a lot of failures in September. I don't think there was anything Ventura could do differently with the pitching staff to keep pitching from running out of gas in late September. For example, the problem wasn't that Adam Dunn was hitting third, it was that he was in the lineup at all. If you have an offense that hits a lot of home runs, that strikes out a lot and doesn't hit for a high batting average, as opposed to an offense that makes solid, consistent line-drive contact, your offense is vulnerable to being shut down. Hitting isn't about OPS, its about hitting.

Don't forget that the Red Sox and Braves had 9 and 9.5 game wild card leads on Labor Day last year and both blew it. Also, the 2007 Mets led by 7.5 games w/17 games to go and choked.

I don't consider the Rangers in that group because they did make the playoffs -- however briefly.

TDog
10-09-2012, 11:34 PM
Don't forget that the Red Sox and Braves had 9 and 9.5 game wild card leads on Labor Day last year and both blew it. Also, the 2007 Mets led by 7.5 games w/17 games to go and choked.

I don't consider the Rangers in that group because they did make the playoffs -- however briefly.

One of the problems with the wild card is that the Rangers technically made the postseason. If you blow a 5 game lead with 9 to play and finish second, you have no business making the postseason. Really, the Rangers didn't make the postseason. They had a one-game playoff with another second-place team for the opportunity to make the postseason. And they lost, completing their collapse. I hope the new wild-card format restores respect for division titles.

Wild card leads don't really count in collapses. They weren't going to win anything. There is no such thing as a wild card title. The Rangers collapse was worse than any of the others you cited, in part because everyone in the sports media was talking for six months about the Rangers winning the West being the only sure thing in the American League, longer if you go back to the wake of their last World Series loss.

The Rangers had been in first place since April 9, Alex Rios having knocked them out of first with a home run in the second game of the season before winning 11 of their next 12. And I would be very surprised if Ron Washington isn't managing the Rangers when they open their 2013 season.

doublem23
10-10-2012, 08:01 AM
Wild card leads don't really count in collapses. They weren't going to win anything. There is no such thing as a wild card title.

Hm, except that yes, they do. Hard to argue the wild card doesn't count for anything when the defending World Champion of Base Ball was a wild card winner.

SCCWS
10-10-2012, 08:33 AM
Wash ain't going anywhere despite horribly managing this year - 5 guys who played 155 games, 7 guys who played 145 games. Those are records you don't want to have and obviously the reason they ran out of gas.

Robin did a fine job with mediocre talent and a mass of injuries all year. Glad he'll be back.

I agree with you except for "mass of injuries". Look around the American League. Teams like New York, K C, Tampa and Boston had "mass of injuries". I would say the White Sox fit in the normal group.

SCCWS
10-10-2012, 08:43 AM
Nothing to do with Ozzie, that stuff has passed. Its obvious that some of the rapid-fire pitching moves and leaning too hard on Coop were rookie mistakes. I'm hopeful that Robin will get it more right than wrong next year.

I would think some bullpen decisions are made before the game starts. Living in New England, I see a ton of Red Sox games. Their announcers often say during games that certain pitchers are not available that game due to their workload the previous few nights. Obviously they got that information in their pre-game meeting w the manager.
Since I don't see many White sox games, I would ask this. When the call goes to the bullpen to start warming someone up, who makes the call. Does Robin or Coop typically call down to get someone up???? That may indicate who is making the bullpen decisions. Maybe for his first year Robin let Coop decide on the bullpen rotation. Or had it been written Robin made all the decisions?

FielderJones
10-10-2012, 11:50 AM
Since I don't see many White sox games, I would ask this. When the call goes to the bullpen to start warming someone up, who makes the call. Does Robin or Coop typically call down to get someone up?

Coop always makes the call. I have always thought that was standard, that the pitching coach makes the call.

Nellie_Fox
10-10-2012, 11:51 AM
Yeah, the camera always shows Coop on the phone to the bullpen, but the more important question is who decides which pitchers are going to start getting ready? Does Robin tell him who to get started, or is it Coop's decision?

SCCWS
10-10-2012, 12:31 PM
Coop always makes the call. I have always thought that was standard, that the pitching coach makes the call.

In Boston, Francona always made the call. Pretty sure Mike Scoscia always makes the call in LA. If memory serves me right, I think LaRussa makes the call.

TDog
10-10-2012, 02:55 PM
Hm, except that yes, they do. Hard to argue the wild card doesn't count for anything when the defending World Champion of Base Ball was a wild card winner.

And the Marlins have two more World Series championships although they have never finished first. The problem is that the wild card isn't a goal so much as a concession. In recent years, teams were willing to play for the wild card without going all out for the division championship because the seeding advantage wasn't an advantage worth going all out for. The Tigers lost their last five games to fall out of first and still made it to the World Series, erasing memoris of their epic collapse.

Does any team set out to defend their wild card title? The only reason baseball has a wild card is that it has two major leagues with three divisions each. You need another team in each league to have two playoff rounds. The only penalty for a team that collapses at the end of the season shouldn't be a bad seed, especially with seeding based on wins and losses having so little meaning in major league baseball.

I think setting up a play-in game for the two best teams that didn't win anything is a better way to run a wild card. The baseball season means something. If you are going to have a wild card, don't let the team coast into the postseaon as the Braves and Rangers seemed to be doing. The wild card has been around so long that younger fans have lost perspective.

doublem23
10-10-2012, 03:32 PM
I think setting up a play-in game for the two best teams that didn't win anything is a better way to run a wild card. The baseball season means something. If you are going to have a wild card, don't let the team coast into the postseaon as the Braves and Rangers seemed to be doing. The wild card has been around so long that younger fans have lost perspective.

Baseball season totally means something, which is why the 88-win Cardinals are about to take a 2-1 series lead over the 98-win Nationals.

ChicagoG19
10-10-2012, 06:07 PM
Baseball season totally means something, which is why the 88-win Cardinals are about to take a 2-1 series lead over the 98-win Nationals.

And they could go all the way again because of one of the worst calls I have ever seen

mahagga73
10-10-2012, 08:38 PM
I'm not going to put forth the effort of looking it up, but if that was one of the biggest chokes in franchise history, the franchise hasn't had too many big chokes.
No offense ,but did you watch the end of the season ? That was the very definition of a choke job. Couldn't buy a hit with runners in scoring position, got owned by the Royals. It HAS to be one of the bigger chokes in Sox history, and that is saying something, because just in the past 15 years there have been several.

mahagga73
10-10-2012, 08:40 PM
Baseball season totally means something, which is why the 88-win Cardinals are about to take a 2-1 series lead over the 98-win Nationals.
Karma is biting the Nats in the butt for that insane benching of Strasburg. Go Cards. The Nats gave the baseball gods the middle finger basically and now they must pay.

TDog
10-11-2012, 01:47 AM
Baseball season totally means something, which is why the 88-win Cardinals are about to take a 2-1 series lead over the 98-win Nationals.

It isn't that teams that don't deserve to be in the postseason can't win in the postseason. If, hypothetically, the wild card were selected by lot and the Mariners were the AL wild card, they might have a shot, especially with their pitching, to win best-of-five and best-of-seven series. They certainly showed they could consistently beat the Tigers during the regular season.

Teams who haven't earned their way into the baseball postseason by winning a division over 162 games over six months can be competitive and can win. Expand the postseason and you expand the possibilities that a team that didn't earn the right to compete for the championship. The NCAA basketball championship has expanded to the point where the champion is more of a tournament champion than a season champion of the sport, as it was when only conference champions and strongest independents were competing. I don't know of any sport where a team has won a championship after achieving a regular season .500-or-less record, but the way sports open up their championship playoffs, it is bound to happen.

At least the Cardinals had to earn the wild card spot by winning a play-in game. The Nationals may end up winning the series, but it is looking like it was the Cardinals' good fortune to go up against a team with management that doesn't seem to care about winning a championship.

Lip Man 1
10-11-2012, 11:34 AM
The Browns won a divisional title one year with a record of 8-8 and in 1994 at the time the labor impasse stopped games the Rangers were in 1st place in the Western Division despite being 10 games under .500.

Had they played the rest of the final six weeks it's very doubtful Texas could have won enough to finish over .500 (all the other teams were even worse in the standings...) So it probably would have happened in baseball for the first time.

Lip

skobabe8
10-11-2012, 01:34 PM
No offense ,but did you watch the end of the season ? That was the very definition of a choke job. Couldn't buy a hit with runners in scoring position, got owned by the Royals. It HAS to be one of the bigger chokes in Sox history, and that is saying something, because just in the past 15 years there have been several.

None taken. I watched as much as I could stomach. Getting owned by the Royals happened all year. Losing to them in September wasn't choking. Being up 2 games with 2 weeks to go and losing the division to the more talented team was not a choke job.

TheVulture
10-12-2012, 12:53 PM
Karma is biting the Nats in the butt for that insane benching of Strasburg. Go Cards. The Nats gave the baseball gods the middle finger basically and now they must pay.

No doubt. A 98 win team minus its ace pitcher may as well be an 88 win team.

SCCWS
10-12-2012, 07:47 PM
Buck Showalter made all the calls to the bullpen in the Yankee series. I saw Girardi make at least 2 so I suppose he makes the Yankee calls

jdm2662
10-13-2012, 05:51 PM
The Browns won a divisional title one year with a record of 8-8 and in 1994 at the time the labor impasse stopped games the Rangers were in 1st place in the Western Division despite being 10 games under .500.

Had they played the rest of the final six weeks it's very doubtful Texas could have won enough to finish over .500 (all the other teams were even worse in the standings...) So it probably would have happened in baseball for the first time.

Lip

If you are talking about the NFL, it was 1985.

More recently, the Chargers in 2008 and Denver in 2011 both won divisions at 8-8. Seatle won their division at 7-9 in 2010. All three of those teams ended up winning a playoff game.

Lip Man 1
10-13-2012, 06:48 PM
JDM:

The 1994 reference was in regards to the Rangers.

Lip

Frontman
10-13-2012, 07:36 PM
I think they earned a chance try it again. I have a feeling that the players would like playing for a guy like Ventura. This isn't a Bobby Valentine situation. From what I hear, he's a great guy. Ventura really killed all of the crap that went along with Ozzie Guillen by taking over and I'm happy about that.

Exactly. It wasn't "Day of our Southsiders" with Robin at the helm. It was about baseball, and IF there was any 'drama' per se, it was watching Robin go through some growing pains as a manager.

Personally, it makes me pretty happy to hear Robin and company will be back.

BainesHOF
10-13-2012, 08:13 PM
None taken. I watched as much as I could stomach. Getting owned by the Royals happened all year. Losing to them in September wasn't choking. Being up 2 games with 2 weeks to go and losing the division to the more talented team was not a choke job.

Our hitters didn't choke down the stretch? Really?! Come on. They had major troubles with runners in scoring position.

Frontman
10-13-2012, 09:47 PM
Our hitters didn't choke down the stretch? Really?! Come on. They had major troubles with runners in scoring position.

That was a major recurring issue for the past few seasons, though. Can't really put that on Robin as the manager as much as I do on the players.