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Lip Man 1
10-04-2012, 12:24 AM
"One of the biggest questions moving into this off season will be how many left handers can you have in your rotation..."-- Kenny Williams

Gonzo also talks to players to get their thoughts. Youk says where he signs will be in large part based on what his family thinks is best.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-1004-white-sox-indians-chicago--20121004,0,142081.story

Lip

kittle42
10-04-2012, 12:27 AM
Youk is not the 2013 3B solution. I wish him the best.

If Quintana is back as anything but the 5th starter, we gots some trouble.

DSpivack
10-04-2012, 12:37 AM
Youk is not the 2013 3B solution. I wish him the best.

If Quintana is back as anything but the 5th starter, we gots some trouble.

The problem is the Sox do not have a better in-house 3B solution and the free agent list is rather thin at that position. And I don't think they have much to work with for a trade (Quintana for a youngish, overlooked 3B, maybe?).

TaylorStSox
10-04-2012, 12:39 AM
The problem is the Sox do not have a better in-house 3B solution and the free agent list is rather thin at that position. And I don't think they have much to work with for a trade (Quintana for a youngish, overlooked 3B, maybe?).
I'd rather have one of us at 3rd than Youk for 13M. That contract is awful.

DSpivack
10-04-2012, 12:55 AM
I'd rather have one of us at 3rd than Youk for 13M. That contract is awful.

They can deny the option and try to sign him to a cheaper deal as I have seen speculated elsewhere; and have also seen the same in regards to Peavy.

BainesHOF
10-04-2012, 01:27 AM
We should exercise the option on Floyd and let everyone else walk. None of those guys is going to be worth the money they receive. A.J. was great for us, but I wouldn't be surprised to see our pitching improve with him gone. His attitude isn't conducive to working well with pitchers and his pitch-calling seems to be getting worse with age for some reason. Peavy had a really good season, and I'm guessing he's going to have an even better year in 2013, but I don't trust his health enough to give him big money. Youkilis looks like his gas tank is nearing empty.

Tragg
10-04-2012, 01:35 AM
The only way I'd bring Youk back is if we were trading Dunn or Konerko and he'd get some 3B/1B/DH/Bench work to stay fresh. But as an everyday 3B? No.
The dude who played today - Johnson? - might be a decent backup DH/1B for next year too. Certainly better than any bench bat we had on this team most of the year prior to Sept

MtGrnwdSoxFan
10-04-2012, 07:37 AM
We should exercise the option on Floyd and let everyone else walk. None of those guys is going to be worth the money they receive. A.J. was great for us, but I wouldn't be surprised to see our pitching improve with him gone. His attitude isn't conducive to working well with pitchers and his pitch-calling seems to be getting worse with age for some reason. Peavy had a really good season, and I'm guessing he's going to have an even better year in 2013, but I don't trust his health enough to give him big money. Youkilis looks like his gas tank is nearing empty.

I'm not sure Flowers is currently - or even ever will be - a capable full-time catcher. He strikes out way too much, and his defense leaves something to be desired. The only thing he has on A.J. is a slightly better arm. I wouldn't be opposed to bringing A.J. back.

Same thing with Youk - he's not the ideal choice, but we have absolutely no one else of worth at 3rd in the minors. Morel is the only option, and I really don't think we can afford two young, great-defense-but-no-offense players in the infield when our major downfall this season was lack of offense.

Peavy, I'm on the fence. I'd like to see him back, but he'll likely get a big deal from a pitching-starved team (Yankees?) and the Sox won't be able to match.

TaylorStSox
10-04-2012, 08:43 AM
They can deny the option and try to sign him to a cheaper deal as I have seen speculated elsewhere; and have also seen the same in regards to Peavy.
How often does this happen? Some people have damn near the whole team taking a "hometown discount." Peavy, AJ, Youk... I'm sure they'd all be willing to give up millions to play for 24,000 fans in a playoff race.

doublem23
10-04-2012, 09:03 AM
How often does this happen? Some people have damn near the whole team taking a "hometown discount." Peavy, AJ, Youk... I'm sure they'd all be willing to give up millions to play for 24,000 fans in a playoff race.

Nobody is talking about anyone getting a hometown discount, there seems to be very little chance Peavy or Youk will find a suitor on the FA market that will pay them what their options for 2013 are worth so they're probably going to have to take a deal that pays them less... Why can't the Sox be the one that does? I haven't heard anything about Youkilis, but Peavy has been pretty clear he likes Chicago and would prefer to come back. Don't know how much truth there is to that, but I think there's at least a pretty good chance he might return unless some other team comes out swinging for the fences. We shall see.

Tragg
10-04-2012, 09:14 AM
Nobody is talking about anyone getting a hometown discount, there seems to be very little chance Peavy or Youk will find a suitor on the FA market that will pay them what their options for 2013 are worth so they're probably going to have to take a deal that pays them less... Why can't the Sox be the one that does? I haven't heard anything about Youkilis, but Peavy has been pretty clear he likes Chicago and would prefer to come back. Don't know how much truth there is to that, but I think there's at least a pretty good chance he might return unless some other team comes out swinging for the fences. We shall see.

Peavy's option price is $22 million; what do you think his market value is - 2/28 or so? Well, for the Sox to do that, we have to pay 2/32. You almost just as soon do 1/22 and negate the year 2 risk. But the Sox have said that's out of the question. Well if that's out of the question, 2/32 probably is too. But they certainly could do it.
As for Youk, the Sox need a regular 3B. NOt sure Youk is that and we have enough 1B/DH. So to keep Youk, it seems to me we'll have to move Dunn or Konerko and find a regular 3B or 2B (Beckham could move to 3B).

Bucky F. Dent
10-04-2012, 10:22 AM
IMO, you've got to count on the fact that Danks is coming back healthy, that Sale, and Quintana, and perhaps Santiago are going to continue to improve, and let Peavy go. His record with injuries in combination with his price tag dictate that result, IMO.

Youk has me scratching my head. Youk is alot like A.J., IMO. Hate playing against him, but love having him on the team. I can barely stomach the price tag of bringing him back, but what are your other options either within the organi-I-zation or on the FA market.

TaylorStSox
10-04-2012, 10:26 AM
Nobody is talking about anyone getting a hometown discount, there seems to be very little chance Peavy or Youk will find a suitor on the FA market that will pay them what their options for 2013 are worth so they're probably going to have to take a deal that pays them less... Why can't the Sox be the one that does? I haven't heard anything about Youkilis, but Peavy has been pretty clear he likes Chicago and would prefer to come back. Don't know how much truth there is to that, but I think there's at least a pretty good chance he might return unless some other team comes out swinging for the fences. We shall see.
LOL. That's called player speak, they all do it. That's some great logic though. "Maybe we'll be the ones." Youk's pretty awful anyway. I'd rather move Beckham to 3rd and bring Sanchez up. We'd improve defensively, at least. Youk's a statue at this point.

I'm not sure Flowers is currently - or even ever will be - a capable full-time catcher. He strikes out way too much, and his defense leaves something to be desired. The only thing he has on A.J. is a slightly better arm. I wouldn't be opposed to bringing A.J. back.

Flowers is better than AJ at every aspect of defense, including pitch calling. He won't be the hitter AJ is, but I'd be willing to bet he'd stay within .050 OPS of AJ. He also won't show up Peavy, Dunn, Rios and anybody else who he deems to have made a mistake.

doublem23
10-04-2012, 10:34 AM
LOL. That's called player speak, they all do it. That's some great logic though. "Maybe we'll be the ones." Youk's pretty awful anyway. I'd rather move Beckham to 3rd and bring Sanchez up. We'd improve defensively, at least. Youk's a statue at this point.

LOL and if you bothered reading, again, not suggesting Jake would turn down a better offer elsewhere to stay in Chicago, just dispelling the Mystery Non-Real Poster you're arguing with that says Youk, Jake, and AJ would all be willing to give the Sox hometown discounts. Nobody has made that argument, yet it's the central point of the post I responded to. So easy to win arguments when you're countering nobody!

TaylorStSox
10-04-2012, 10:50 AM
LOL and if you bothered reading, again, not suggesting Jake would turn down a better offer elsewhere to stay in Chicago, just dispelling the Mystery Non-Real Poster you're arguing with that says Youk, Jake, and AJ would all be willing to give the Sox hometown discounts. Nobody has made that argument, yet it's the central point of the post I responded to. So easy to win arguments when you're countering nobody!
Those hometown discounts have been suggested in just about every thread discussing next year's roster.

Huisj
10-04-2012, 10:53 AM
From KW's quote, it sure doesn't sound like they're going to plan on Morel as even much of a backup plan since he says he can't know anything about his future until he sees him on the field in spring training. So that hints at them at least actively trying to find a solution at 3rd.

WhiffleBall
10-04-2012, 11:06 AM
From KW's quote, it sure doesn't sound like they're going to plan on Morel as even much of a backup plan since he says he can't know anything about his future until he sees him on the field in spring training. So that hints at them at least actively trying to find a solution at 3rd.

A 100% healthy Morel might work but bad backs and 3rd basemen usually means trouble.

DeadMoney
10-04-2012, 11:13 AM
From KW's quote, it sure doesn't sound like they're going to plan on Morel as even much of a backup plan since he says he can't know anything about his future until he sees him on the field in spring training. So that hints at them at least actively trying to find a solution at 3rd.

I think it's telling that with Morel on the 40-man and having finished his season in AAA (and presumably healthy considering he was playing in the playoffs), he wasn't let anywhere near the big club following the Knight's season. If the organization had any plans for him, you'd think they would've wanted him around for a tight division race if even just to get the experience of being around it.

kittle42
10-04-2012, 11:20 AM
Those hometown discounts have been suggested in just about every thread discussing next year's roster.

If there's one thing Sox fans love, it's screaming "hometown discount" and then taking it out on ownership when the player won't take it.

hawkjt
10-04-2012, 11:28 AM
My kneejerk expectations for the offseason:

1. Peavy,Myers,Youk,Liriano,AJ are all gone, mostly to greener pastures.

2. Sox will pick up Floyd's option,and go with a rotation of Danks,Floyd,Sale,Quintana,Santiago/Axelrod/Castro

3. Kenny will pick up a marginal 3rd baseman to compete with Morel.

4. Thornton probably is traded. Crain is retained.

5. DWise,O-Hudson...gone

6. Dan Johnson might be retained.

A little tweaking around the edges,and that is about it,gang.
I would not be too upset with this scenario,as our young players might improve,and we could be back in the hunt again.

eriqjaffe
10-04-2012, 11:34 AM
3. Kenny will pick up a marginal 3rd baseman to compete with Morel.I saw this a few minutes ago:

Figgins Wants Out Of Seattle (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/10/figgins-wants-out-of-seattle.html)

...and all I could think of was how Kenny always gets his man. And Figgins is the very definition of a marginal 3rd baseman.

Boy, I hope those Rick Hahn rumors have some validity. ;)

hawkjt
10-04-2012, 11:38 AM
I saw this a few minutes ago:

Figgins Wants Out Of Seattle (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/10/figgins-wants-out-of-seattle.html)

...and all I could think of was how Kenny always gets his man. And Figgins is the very definition of a marginal 3rd baseman.

Boy, I hope those Rick Hahn rumors have some validity. ;)


I agree that Figgins is a Kenny favorite,but even Kenny is not that crazy. Figgins is beyond marginal,and way into horrible.

Nellie_Fox
10-04-2012, 12:17 PM
I'd rather move Beckham to 3rd and bring Sanchez up.Beckham's offense would have to improve greatly for that move to make sense. His really exceptional defense up the middle makes his sporadic (at best) offense tolerable, but corner infielders have to contribute offensively.

Zisk77
10-04-2012, 12:21 PM
What I would do:

Let A.J., and Peavy walk unless they are willing to take 2 years at a reasonable price. A.J. really showed his age defensivly this year (passed balls /wild pitches that shouldn't have been).

Let Floyd and Liriano go.

3b:

Plan A re-sign Youkilis
Plan B. Sign Cesar Izturis bat him second (yeah I know no power...Its ok we hit over 200 hr's will get it elsewhere).
Plan C. Brent Morel.

Rotation:

Plan A take all the Savings at sign Greinke. Maybe sign one of the following to a modest deal if available as well - Hudson, Villaneuva, Edwin Jackson, Guthrie, Marcum

Plan B sign one of the latter group or James Shields.

Plan C Liriano and/or Floyd.

Catcher -assuming no A.J.

Plan A Brian McCann
Plan B Trade suspect and get some cash from Nationals for Kurt Suzuki.
Plan C Tyler Flower + lH FA.

Trade Thornton maybe in a Package with Dunn and some $ for near major league ready Pitcher...SF and their anemic offense may be a suitor. Nationals? If not a good Deal Dunn stays DH. Dan Johnson/Konerko dh/1b platoon or maybe Viciedo with us aquiring another Of.

Thats my 2 cents :gulp:

mahagga73
10-10-2012, 10:11 PM
My kneejerk expectations for the offseason:

1. Peavy,Myers,Youk,Liriano,AJ are all gone, mostly to greener pastures.

2. Sox will pick up Floyd's option,and go with a rotation of Danks,Floyd,Sale,Quintana,Santiago/Axelrod/Castro

3. Kenny will pick up a marginal 3rd baseman to compete with Morel.

4. Thornton probably is traded. Crain is retained.

5. DWise,O-Hudson...gone

6. Dan Johnson might be retained.

A little tweaking around the edges,and that is about it,gang.
I would not be too upset with this scenario,as our young players might improve,and we could be back in the hunt again.
i think the Sox will sign AJ and Myers. Peavy, after taking all that money for nothing from the Sox, will cash his newfound health in to another team. Youk , the impression I get, thinks he is more valuable at this point in his career than he is in reality. I liked Morel when he was healthy. If Morel is healthy, I would rather let him play third. Thornton will stay and Dwise will stay I hope. Honestly, I'm so sick of seeing these guys wilt at the end that a blowup of the roster might not be so bad at this point , even if they stink for awhile.

Nellie_Fox
10-11-2012, 12:48 AM
I liked Morel when he was healthy. So, you're the one.

I'm so sick of seeing these guys wilt at the end that a blowup of the roster might not be so bad at this point , even if they stink for awhile.I simply don't believe people who say this. I believe that you'd be calling for people's firing before the first 90 loss season ended.

asindc
10-11-2012, 08:40 AM
So, you're the one.

I simply don't believe people who say this. I believe that you'd be calling for people's firing before the first 90 loss season ended.

I'm with you. In fact, I'm calling out every Sox fan who says that. IF the team decides to go into full tear-down-to-rebuild mode, will you support the team the same way during that time as you would if they were winning 90+ games a year? That means attending the same number of games, buying the same amount of concessions, buying the same amount of merchandising, etc. If not, I'm calling hypocrisy.

Madvora
10-11-2012, 09:04 AM
If KW is going to focus on a novelty like having a bunch of lefties, then this isn't going to turn out well. He did the same thing a few years ago by stocking the bullpen with a bunch of hard throwers that sucked like Andy Sisco.
Why not focus on getting good baseball players rather than looking for a novelty like this?

BleacherBandit
10-11-2012, 11:24 AM
So, you're the one.

I simply don't believe people who say this. I believe that you'd be calling for people's firing before the first 90 loss season ended.

This team has been fielding poorly projected teams for the last three-to-four years. Why is everyone adverse to the idea of establishing an admirable farm-system? I've never seen that in my lifetime.

hawkjt
10-11-2012, 12:28 PM
If KW is going to focus on a novelty like having a bunch of lefties, then this isn't going to turn out well. He did the same thing a few years ago by stocking the bullpen with a bunch of hard throwers that sucked like Andy Sisco.
Why not focus on getting good baseball players rather than looking for a novelty like this?


I hardly think that Kenny is obsessed on having a rotation with 4 leftys.
I just think it is the way it probably will work out.
Should he dump Sale and Danks?
Should he trade Quintana?...or Santiago?

I think it might just be that 4 of the best 5 starters in the organization happen to be leftys.

Madvora
10-11-2012, 12:31 PM
I hardly think that Kenny is obsessed on having a rotation with 4 leftys.
I just think it is the way it probably will work out.
Should he dump Sale and Danks?
Should he trade Quintana?...or Santiago?

I think it might just be that 4 of the best 5 starters in the organization happen to be leftys.

I'm just referring to the quote Lip put up in the original post.

"One of the biggest questions moving into this off season will be how many left handers can you have in your rotation..."-- Kenny Williams

I guess that can be taken two ways, "how many is too many" or "what can we do to get as many lefties as possible?"

hawkjt
10-11-2012, 12:35 PM
I'm just referring to the quote Lip put up in the original post.

"One of the biggest questions moving into this off season will be how many left handers can you have in your rotation..."-- Kenny Williams

I guess that can be taken two ways, "how many is too many" or "what can we do to get as many lefties as possible?"


I believe he is questioning whether a team can actually succeed with as many as 4 lefties in the rotation.

wilburaga
10-11-2012, 01:06 PM
Reminiscent of the awful 1979 squad that featured 4 lefty starters (Kravec, Baumgarten, Wortham, and Trout). Southpaws made 116 of our 160 starts.

The team went 73-87, but as I recall the lefty starters were not the problem. It was a roster packed with Ralph Garrs, Claudell Washingtons, Milt Mays, Alan Bannisters, Kevin Bells and Jim Morrisons. And these guys were starters.

Moses_Scurry
10-11-2012, 01:23 PM
A guy on the Scott Van Pelt show yesterday suggested the Sox as a possible landing spot for Josh Hamilton. He was just talking out of his ass, but does anybody here think that could happen? Sign Hamilton, release Peavy, Floyd, and Liriano, and trade One of Viciedo, De Aza, or Rios for the best possible return, preferably one that includes a starting pitcher and/or 3B.

I guess it would largely depend on how low his price tag dips due to his checkered past.

TheVulture
10-11-2012, 02:09 PM
I believe he is questioning whether a team can actually succeed with as many as 4 lefties in the rotation.

I don't see what difference it makes with the rotation. Left or right, the starter is expected to go through the lineup numerous times. It's not like the bullpen where you want to set them up for different matchups.

Golden Sox
10-11-2012, 04:01 PM
I would take Hamilton on the White Sox in a minute. If we can move Dunn for something decent, and then sign Hamilton it would be a tremendous upgrade for 2013.

Frater Perdurabo
10-11-2012, 05:12 PM
The Sox would provide a low-pressure environment in which Hamilton could have a minimum of scrutiny, and he might be willing to sign for a relatively low dollar, one-year deal in the hope that he rebounds and then cashes in with a multi year deal in 2014. If that unlikely scenario unfolded, the Sox could trade Rios to save salary and upgrade elsewhere.

shingo10
10-11-2012, 10:07 PM
The Sox would provide a low-pressure environment in which Hamilton could have a minimum of scrutiny, and he might be willing to sign for a relatively low dollar, one-year deal in the hope that he rebounds and then cashes in with a multi year deal in 2014. If that unlikely scenario unfolded, the Sox could trade Rios to save salary and upgrade elsewhere.

I don't necessarily think he'd have a minimum of scrutiny here...Chicago is a pretty huge sports market. I guess he'd be playing in front of less people though.

A. Cavatica
10-11-2012, 11:21 PM
Reminiscent of the awful 1979 squad that featured 4 lefty starters (Kravec, Baumgarten, Wortham, and Trout). Southpaws made 116 of our 160 starts.

The team went 73-87, but as I recall the lefty starters were not the problem. It was a roster packed with Ralph Garrs, Claudell Washingtons, Milt Mays, Alan Bannisters, Kevin Bells and Jim Morrisons. And these guys were starters.

That was the worst lineup I've ever seen.

Britt Burns, who came up in 1980, was the best of the lefty pitchers.

Edit: 111 starts by lefties in 1980, too, with those 5 all getting at least 10 and Guy Hoffman getting one.

Frater Perdurabo
10-11-2012, 11:21 PM
I don't necessarily think he'd have a minimum of scrutiny here...Chicago is a pretty huge sports market. I guess he'd be playing in front of less people though.

And the fact that the Cubs, Bears and Bulls get more media attention than the Sox.

Tragg
10-12-2012, 01:28 AM
3b:

Plan A re-sign Youkilis

I just don't think that you can resign Youk and say with a straight face that we have 3B covered. He wore down. You can sign him as 3B, 1B, DH rotation, but we have 2 of those types already in Dunn and Konerko.

As for people wanting to dump De Aza - he gave us a .349 OBP and .750 OPS out of the leadoff spot. Compare that to Podsednik's .700 OPS in 2005. Who are we going to leadoff with? Wise and his .295 OBP in 2012, when he played "excellent" (and certainly a career year for him). Excellent maybe to Ozzie (he called his .301 spring OBP "Tremendous" so I suppose .295 would be excellent).

russ99
10-12-2012, 10:06 AM
I just don't think that you can resign Youk and say with a straight face that we have 3B covered. He wore down. You can sign him as 3B, 1B, DH rotation, but we have 2 of those types already in Dunn and Konerko.

As for people wanting to dump De Aza - he gave us a .349 OBP and .750 OPS out of the leadoff spot. Compare that to Podsednik's .700 OPS in 2005. Who are we going to leadoff with? Wise and his .295 OBP in 2012, when he played "excellent" (and certainly a career year for him). Excellent maybe to Ozzie (he called his .301 spring OBP "Tremendous" so I suppose .295 would be excellent).

Again...

2005 Podsednik - .290 AVG, .351 OBP, 59 steals

De Aza - .281 AVG, .349 OBP, 26 steals: and he was a much less effective hitter and baserunner after the all-star break.

Just because of those 9 homers inflating his OPS, you'll never convince me that De Aza is a better leadoff hitter than Pods was.

Not saying I want to dump DeAza in the least, but he's an above average leadoff hitter, and IMO would be a better option in the #2 spot had we a prototypical leadoff guy and a top stolen base threat.

Zisk77
10-12-2012, 11:56 AM
I just don't think that you can resign Youk and say with a straight face that we have 3B covered. He wore down. You can sign him as 3B, 1B, DH rotation, but we have 2 of those types already in Dunn and Konerko.

As for people wanting to dump De Aza - he gave us a .349 OBP and .750 OPS out of the leadoff spot. Compare that to Podsednik's .700 OPS in 2005. Who are we going to leadoff with? Wise and his .295 OBP in 2012, when he played "excellent" (and certainly a career year for him). Excellent maybe to Ozzie (he called his .301 spring OBP "Tremendous" so I suppose .295 would be excellent).

I didn't say anything about 3b being covered. I looked at possible FA's and what we have in the organization. I doubt we have David Wright money (and he'll prolly stay a met) so I would say Youk is option A...Izturis B Morel C.

I agree, if it is youk he will be spelled at 3b some. My face isn't straight, it sports a crooked (yet handsome) grin.:cool:

WLL1855
10-13-2012, 01:44 AM
First question (and I say this with a straight face): Does anyone really expect us to contend for the division next year?

If yes, then go for broke. Sign Hamilton. Go get a starting catcher not named Flowers. Get a starting third-baseman not named Morel. Go get Greinke or Marcum or Dempster or whoever to round out the rotation. (Note: I'm not in any way endorsing this course of action.)

If no, gut the team. Do it and get it over with. Everything must go. Begin the PR war early and blame everything on the fan base not supporting the team.

Of course we will probably just shrug our shoulders and try to do both and end up where we were this year.

I think I've reached the point of complete indifference. I'll likely go to the same number of games as I did this past season so it really doesn't matter what strategy the club decides on to me.

doublem23
10-13-2012, 09:06 AM
First question (and I say this with a straight face): Does anyone really expect us to contend for the division next year?

If yes, then go for broke. Sign Hamilton. Go get a starting catcher not named Flowers. Get a starting third-baseman not named Morel. Go get Greinke or Marcum or Dempster or whoever to round out the rotation. (Note: I'm not in any way endorsing this course of action.)

If no, gut the team. Do it and get it over with. Everything must go. Begin the PR war early and blame everything on the fan base not supporting the team.

Of course we will probably just shrug our shoulders and try to do both and end up where we were this year.

I think I've reached the point of complete indifference. I'll likely go to the same number of games as I did this past season so it really doesn't matter what strategy the club decides on to me.

Why?

Noneck
10-13-2012, 09:31 AM
First question (and I say this with a straight face): Does anyone really expect us to contend for the division next year?

If yes, then go for broke. Sign Hamilton. Go get a starting catcher not named Flowers. Get a starting third-baseman not named Morel. Go get Greinke or Marcum or Dempster or whoever to round out the rotation. (Note: I'm not in any way endorsing this course of action.)

If no, gut the team. Do it and get it over with. Everything must go. Begin the PR war early and blame everything on the fan base not supporting the team.




I'd say you definitely go with option one. Actually they should have started at and after the trade dead line this year. Overpaying or taking on some bad contracts was the way to go to get the needed resources, to get in the playoffs. Now since that opportunity has passed, next year they should go balls out. Detroit should be tougher and the north side team should still be in disarray. Opportunities to build a fan base will be more difficult when the other Chicago team starts to progress. The time is now.

Tragg
10-13-2012, 10:09 AM
First question (and I say this with a straight face): Does anyone really expect us to contend for the division next year?

If yes, then go for broke. Sign Hamilton.

He's going to want one of those 5+ year deals at over $20 mill per. I just can't see tying 25% of the payroll to him, going for it or not. And honestly, he's somewhat injury prone, somewhat unstable, and, imo, kind of lazy.

Lip Man 1
10-13-2012, 11:02 AM
Noneck:

You could make the case strictly from a baseball standpoint to go either way, "go for it" (again) or "blow it up."

But unfortunately with the White Sox it's never that cut and dried. There are simply to many other factors that are involved.

My guess is that unless something completely off the wall goes down you're going to see the same approach, "rebuild and contend" at the same time philosophy.

History has showed over the past decade that hasn't worked very well. Good enough to honestly compete in a weak division, good enough to at least have a winning season but not good enough to seriously contend for a championship.

Lip

SCCWS
10-13-2012, 11:45 AM
I don't think you even consider signing Youk unless the medical people agree. He has had 2 straight sub-par years after being a very good player. If he is deemed healthy, I think you set a price and try and get him. But the decision needs to be based on his current medical condition.

Noneck
10-13-2012, 12:33 PM
Lip,


I think pulling the wool over the sheep's eyes has run its course. If they do sos, its not going to fly with the fans, they have seen that too many times already. I'm too old for a rebuild but I do understand if they do it but not now.
This is a golden opportunity to get fans considering whats going with the other chicago club. Every year the window is closing more and more but if they are planning on selling in the near future, then what they are doing makes sense.

mahagga73
10-13-2012, 01:16 PM
So, you're the one.

I simply don't believe people who say this. I believe that you'd be calling for people's firing before the first 90 loss season ended.
I know Morel is unpopular because he was horrible this year with his bad back and all, but when he was healthy the year before he showed some promise. Not saying he is better than Youk at all, just think the writing may be on the wall with Youk leaving. Your probably right about my turning the roster over comment but man this is getting old, watching postseason ball and no Sox. Seems like most the league has made an appearance since 08.

doublem23
10-13-2012, 01:17 PM
This team has been fielding poorly projected teams for the last three-to-four years. Why is everyone adverse to the idea of establishing an admirable farm-system? I've never seen that in my lifetime.

Just because you don't want to see the Sox go into a death spiral at the MLB level doesn't mean you're not adverse to seeing them build up some decent prospects in-house. It's not an all-or-none question. But when push comes to shove, what is more important to fans? The MLB team or the farm system? I'd be wary of any fan that answered for the latter over the former.

mahagga73
10-13-2012, 01:21 PM
Just because you don't want to see the Sox go into a death spiral at the MLB level doesn't mean you're not adverse to seeing them build up some decent prospects in-house. It's not an all-or-none question. But when push comes to shove, what is more important to fans? The MLB team or the farm system? I'd be wary of any fan that answered for the latter over the former.
They were projected to go to the WS by a few and the playoffs by most last year.

JB98
10-13-2012, 01:42 PM
Just because you don't want to see the Sox go into a death spiral at the MLB level doesn't mean you're not adverse to seeing them build up some decent prospects in-house. It's not an all-or-none question. But when push comes to shove, what is more important to fans? The MLB team or the farm system? I'd be wary of any fan that answered for the latter over the former.

I'd like to add that a highly-regarded farm system doesn't necessarily translate to success at the MLB level. A friend of mine grew up in the Kansas City area and is a Royals fan. He was just telling me the other day he's sick of hearing about all these great prospects Kansas City supposedly has. He's been hearing about a great farm system for six or seven years. Meanwhile, he's still got an irrelevant, 90-loss team to follow at the big-league level.

I know we have some fans here who think the Royals are good because they beat up on the Sox. Trust me, the Royals are terrible. Ask a Kansas City fan sometime how that "great farm system" is working out for them.

Folks who are wanting a full rebuild need to be careful what you wish for. It's remarkable to me that anyone living in Chicago would call for the Sox to do such a thing. We all see the horrors that are going on at Wrigley, right? I don't want to go through that. I just don't. I'd much rather tolerate the frustrations that go along with an 85-win season than go through a rebuild while being promised a future that may never come.

SoxSpeed22
10-13-2012, 02:03 PM
Truth be told, I'm not sure which one I would rather have.
Spinning your wheels and having consistent 77-86 win seasons with not much to show for it can be fairly frustrating in its own right.
If done improperly, a total rebuild would be a complete bleeping disaster for this franchise, especially when its hard enough to draw fans. They looked like they got some things right in recent years with drafts and Latin signings, but the real challenge awaits in the higher levels. There is still much work to do to getting a respectable minor-league system. If there's anything recent years have taught me it's that you can't depend on all young guys or all vets, there has to be a proper blend.

SI1020
10-13-2012, 03:00 PM
I'm very much in favor of building a stronger farm system. Of course it doesn't mean I think that alone is a guarantee of long term future success. I just believe in balance and versatility. I mean what is so hard to understand? Talent wins, and having some talent on the farm will help. Of course you must not ignore other avenues like shrewd trading and smart free agent acquisitions.

If there's anything recent years have taught me it's that you can't depend on all young guys or all vets, there has to be a proper blend. I completely agree.

soxtalker
10-13-2012, 03:42 PM
First question (and I say this with a straight face): Does anyone really expect us to contend for the division next year?

If yes, then go for broke. Sign Hamilton. Go get a starting catcher not named Flowers. Get a starting third-baseman not named Morel. Go get Greinke or Marcum or Dempster or whoever to round out the rotation. (Note: I'm not in any way endorsing this course of action.)

If no, gut the team. Do it and get it over with. Everything must go. Begin the PR war early and blame everything on the fan base not supporting the team.

Of course we will probably just shrug our shoulders and try to do both and end up where we were this year.

I think I've reached the point of complete indifference. I'll likely go to the same number of games as I did this past season so it really doesn't matter what strategy the club decides on to me.

A variation of this question seems to come up almost yearly (probably more frequently). I've often leaned toward the second option, though the majority on the board usually seem to prefer the first. Neither is a guarantee of success.

But my question here is whether it is even possible to do the "blow it up" route. The Sox have a lot of money committed next year, and many of those contracts aren't movable without taking significant losses.

TheVulture
10-13-2012, 04:11 PM
Again...

2005 Podsednik - .290 AVG, .351 OBP, 59 steals

De Aza - .281 AVG, .349 OBP, 26 steals: and he was a much less effective hitter and baserunner after the all-star break.

Just because of those 9 homers inflating his OPS, you'll never convince me that De Aza is a better leadoff hitter than Pods was.

Not saying I want to dump DeAza in the least, but he's an above average leadoff hitter, and IMO would be a better option in the #2 spot had we a prototypical leadoff guy and a top stolen base threat.

DeAza is a far superior ball player in my eyes than Podsednik. DeAza's a better hitter and a better defender. How many guys out there are going to steal 59 bases?

TheVulture
10-13-2012, 04:48 PM
I don't get this rebuild stuff. This year was supposed to a bit of a rebuild, and quite frankly, we've seen about 8 or so young pitchers establish themselves as legitimate major league pitchers. That seems like success to me. I like the OF we've got, I like our DP combo, and I like Flowers behind the plate. He does a good job behind the plate and he showed the more regular at bats he gets, the more dangerous he becomes. Viciedo has just scratched the surface IMO, in the next couple years I see him establishing himself as legitimate middle order hitter. The rotation for next year has some excellent young parts in Sale, Quintana and Santiago. We should be thrilled to have those guys emerge like they did this year! When have three young guys emerged like this in one year? Floyd does the job as a bottom of the rotation innings eater, not great but not the worst as long we've got another option to bump him to the 5th spot. So it seems the question is Konerko, Dunn, and 3b. Those bats all died down the stretch, but let's face it, Konerko is getting old and the wrist problems keep reemerging, Youk is getting old, and Dunn, while dangerous, is really not that good of a hitter. Doesn't mean we need a complete rebuild, just a couple moves and a shot in the arm. If the Sox can work something out with Peavy, I'd have no problem going with the arms we have right now. Just get a couple of bats, say goodbye to Youk and work it out so Konerko can play about 120 games a year to keep him fresh. I'd like to see the Sox move Dunn and replace him with a more consistent hitter, and pick up another left handed bat for the bench worthy of about 40 or 50 starts at 1b as well as play some other positions. Who those guys might be, I don't know, but I think this team just needs a couple good moves.

Frater Perdurabo
10-13-2012, 05:19 PM
I want a farm system like that of the Cardinals and Braves. Those organizations consistently develop position players who can field well and hit at the MLB level.

Lip Man 1
10-13-2012, 06:04 PM
Noneck:

You mention a potential selling of the franchise. I can't say I've heard anything about that, nothing but in fact JR is in his mid/late 70's and he can't go on forever. Plus the latest info I heard and saw was that his family doesn't want to be a part of the Sox when he is gone.

So it will be an extremely interesting situation when it's time for a change.

But for right now I honestly don't think there is a connection between the current philosophy and a potential sale, the Sox had this attitude 10 years ago for example.

Lip

mahagga73
10-13-2012, 07:07 PM
Reminiscent of the awful 1979 squad that featured 4 lefty starters (Kravec, Baumgarten, Wortham, and Trout). Southpaws made 116 of our 160 starts.

The team went 73-87, but as I recall the lefty starters were not the problem. It was a roster packed with Ralph Garrs, Claudell Washingtons, Milt Mays, Alan Bannisters, Kevin Bells and Jim Morrisons. And these guys were starters.
My half sister was adopted when my dad went to Nam and her cousin with her adopted family was Rich Wortham of all people, lol. Small world.He had one respectable year in the rotation with a .500 record on a terrible team if I remember right.

FielderJones
10-13-2012, 11:19 PM
You mention a potential selling of the franchise. I can't say I've heard anything about that, nothing but in fact JR is in his mid/late 70's and he can't go on forever. Plus the latest info I heard and saw was that his family doesn't want to be a part of the Sox when he is gone.

If the other owners want to retain Sox ownership, would it be just a matter of the Reinsdorf heirs selling the shares to a new operating partner?

Lip Man 1
10-13-2012, 11:37 PM
Fielder:

I'd assume so although there could be an issue if say a few investors all make the same offer for the same percentage of the franchise. That's something that I assume, you'd have to go before a judge much like the Veeck - Finley - Comiskey situation in 1959.

I've asked the folks in the media about this issue from time to time and honestly no one that I've asked can even guess as to what the future would hold if / when JR leaves. I've been told it's been brought up in meetings for example and nobody has an idea...if it would go to some of the current investors, if it would be sold to an outside group, company or an individual.

It'll be interesting when it happens that's for sure.

Lip

Golden Sox
10-14-2012, 09:37 AM
When the day comes when JR sells the White Sox I wouldn't be surprised to see the Wirtz family be the buyer. JR has always said he would sell all of his holdings (White Sox, Bulls and United Center) to one buyer. Due to the fact that the Wirtz family owns part of the United Center with JR it would make sense for them to buy out JR. Maybe they might build another baseball stadium for the White Sox somewhere near the United Center.

34 Inch Stick
10-15-2012, 02:45 PM
It was my understanding that JR had a very small ownership interest in the team but I've been wrong before

WhiffleBall
10-15-2012, 03:38 PM
It was my understanding that JR had a very small ownership interest in the team but I've been wrong before

I thought JR and Einhorn combined owned a majority ownership but now Einhorn takes a much less active role in the team since he got sick? Either way there will probably be a new owner sometime in the next 10 years. They both turn 77 early next year.

Lip Man 1
10-15-2012, 09:19 PM
34:

I've heard between 5% and 12% however with all the individuals who have a piece of the franchise that's still more than enough to have majority control.

Lip

DSpivack
10-15-2012, 10:34 PM
34:

I've heard between 5% and 12% however with all the individuals who have a piece of the franchise that's still more than enough to have majority control.

Lip

Say JR and/or Einhorn wants to retire and/or sell his share; who at that point would become the active owner?

doublem23
10-15-2012, 11:32 PM
When the day comes when JR sells the White Sox I wouldn't be surprised to see the Wirtz family be the buyer. JR has always said he would sell all of his holdings (White Sox, Bulls and United Center) to one buyer. Due to the fact that the Wirtz family owns part of the United Center with JR it would make sense for them to buy out JR. Maybe they might build another baseball stadium for the White Sox somewhere near the United Center.

Hasn't JR's son expressed interest in keeping the Bulls, though? I could have sworn someone posted a piece written on his son that essentially stated he wasn't interested in keeping the family holdings in the Sox but was interested in remaining owner of the Bulls. So who knows?

At any rate, I wouldn't hold my breath for a new baseball stadium by the United Center. If they're going to build a new stadium, I would assume it would be downtown, there's no way you could acquire enough land east of the UC any more, way too valuable, and I'm not sure what point it would serve to move the Sox from Bridgeport, a relatively unpopular neighborhood with a seedy reputation and move them west of the UC.

Lip Man 1
10-16-2012, 12:46 PM
Double is correct in his thought that the son wants to hang on to the Bulls but not the Sox.

Spivak, I assume in that case the board of directors would meet and vote on who would be given control of the day to day operations of the franchise at least until a decision is reached on if the club would be sold and said person would remain in charge until the sale is done.

Lip