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TomBradley72
10-01-2012, 12:08 PM
In looking at the status of this team and overall organization as we close out a disappointing 2012- to what degree do you think it's time for a significant overhaul across the board (not just on the playing field)?
Major league roster- expensive free agent contracts looming for Peavy, Youkilis and AJ (without any real help in the farm system to replace them)- and saddled with Adam Dunn for another 2 years.
Farm System- some good talent that helped the 2012 team (young pitching especially)- but I don't see alot of guys that could potentially help in 2013 where we need the help.
Marketing- After a strong start- I think Brooks Boyer is running out of gas- if you can't draw 2 million when you spend most of the season you're in 1st place and the cross town team is losing 100 games- I think marketing is accountable. "Dynamic pricing", worn out promotions like Mullett Night, etc., mediocre TV and newspaper advertising, etc.- they seem to really have lost their way in this area.
TV & Radio Announcers- IMHO Farmer & DJ are unlistenable- I only listen when I need a score- but I used to like having the radio on in the background while doing other things during the season- but not with these 2- I think both should be dumped. On the TV side- I'm more of a Hawk fan than most- but he showed a noticable decline this season, and the chemistry just isn't there with Stone.
I think this team needs some bold, offseason changes to get back on track- but there's no real evidence that JR has the inclination or the ability to execute aggressive changes quickly.

ChiSoxFann
10-01-2012, 12:25 PM
Barring another 'All-in' offseason spending spree, which I don't see happening, then yes I think this team needs an overhaul.

I would let AJ, Peavy, Youkilis, Liriano, etc. walk and try to move some pieces. I like some of the young pitchers we have, but where are our young, impact position players? Where is this team's Ryan Braun, Mike Trout, Andrew McCutchen type player(s) who can be the face of the franchise? Our hitters aren't getting any younger and I doubt Konerko, Rios, Dunn are around next time this team realistically can compete for a title.

I agree marketing needs an improvement too. I said in another thread Brooks and his ideas have gone stale or are not working. New blood is badly needed here.

Lip Man 1
10-01-2012, 12:30 PM
Tom:

It's hard to answer that question right now because we (as fans) have no idea what the off season plan is.

I think it likely the Sox are going to lose most if not all of their free agents and start to re-tool under Hahn, HOWEVER JR has been known to throw a curve and do what is not expected...it could happen again (although I think the chances are small.)

He might begin to invest in the minor league system now because of the changes to it but that still doesn't solve the issue of dealing with some high powered agents and if that is the case and the Sox don't draft particular players because of their representatives, does that start to solve that issue?

Regarding marketing and advertising, logically I'd have to think that Brooks and his people have to do something....you just can't let things go the way they are right now.

To what degree changes could be made is something we'll have to wait and see on, but I've got to think some changes at least will be made.

To not do anything, keep the status quo, would not make business sense.

Lip

SI1020
10-01-2012, 12:38 PM
In looking at the status of this team and overall organization as we close out a disappointing 2012- to what degree do you think it's time for a significant overhaul across the board (not just on the playing field)?
Major league roster- expensive free agent contracts looming for Peavy, Youkilis and AJ (without any real help in the farm system to replace them)- and saddled with Adam Dunn for another 2 years.
Farm System- some good talent that helped the 2012 team (young pitching especially)- but I don't see alot of guys that could potentially help in 2013 where we need the help.
Marketing- After a strong start- I think Brooks Boyer is running out of gas- if you can't draw 2 million when you spend most of the season you're in 1st place and the cross town team is losing 100 games- I think marketing is accountable. "Dynamic pricing", worn out promotions like Mullett Night, etc., mediocre TV and newspaper advertising, etc.- they seem to really have lost their way in this area.
TV & Radio Announcers- IMHO Farmer & DJ are unlistenable- I only listen when I need a score- but I used to like having the radio on in the background while doing other things during the season- but not with these 2- I think both should be dumped. On the TV side- I'm more of a Hawk fan than most- but he showed a noticable decline this season, and the chemistry just isn't there with Stone.
I think this team needs some bold, offseason changes to get back on track- but there's no real evidence that JR has the inclination or the ability to execute aggressive changes quickly.
Very solid analysis of the situation.

Chez
10-01-2012, 12:42 PM
I don't think you will see a complete overhaul of the major league roster next season or anytime in the forseeable future -- unless the Sox were willing to dramatically reduce ticket prices. I've read on this board thousands of times that "Sox fans will not support mediocrity." I read it again today. Realistically, this year is proof that Sox fans may not even support a team that spent much of the summer in first place -- or at least will come up with dozens of reasons to not show up to the ballpark (and a few of those reasons are IMO legitimate).

The Cubs can go through a major ovehaul and still draw close to 3 million fans a year. If you blow up the Sox roster and offer the fan base absolutely no hope of contending, the Sox will draw less than 1,500,000 for the season -- unless the Sox were willing to slash ticket prices. I just don't see it happening.

tstrike2000
10-01-2012, 12:59 PM
I think there will at least be some kind of mini overhaul based on salaries. A.J., Peavy, Youkilis, Myers, Liriano, and possibly Floyd all likely to be gone.

amsteel
10-01-2012, 01:11 PM
We all saw this year that unless 4 or 5 guys have career years this team is good for 80-85 wins. The Tigers are gonna keep throwing $ around until they win a WS so I have a feeling a division title is a ways away.

An overhaul is needed, but god damn, is it gonna suck.

tebman
10-01-2012, 01:13 PM
In looking at the status of this team and overall organization as we close out a disappointing 2012- to what degree do you think it's time for a significant overhaul across the board (not just on the playing field)?
Major league roster- expensive free agent contracts looming for Peavy, Youkilis and AJ (without any real help in the farm system to replace them)- and saddled with Adam Dunn for another 2 years.
Farm System- some good talent that helped the 2012 team (young pitching especially)- but I don't see alot of guys that could potentially help in 2013 where we need the help.
Marketing- After a strong start- I think Brooks Boyer is running out of gas- if you can't draw 2 million when you spend most of the season you're in 1st place and the cross town team is losing 100 games- I think marketing is accountable. "Dynamic pricing", worn out promotions like Mullett Night, etc., mediocre TV and newspaper advertising, etc.- they seem to really have lost their way in this area.
TV & Radio Announcers- IMHO Farmer & DJ are unlistenable- I only listen when I need a score- but I used to like having the radio on in the background while doing other things during the season- but not with these 2- I think both should be dumped. On the TV side- I'm more of a Hawk fan than most- but he showed a noticable decline this season, and the chemistry just isn't there with Stone.
I think this team needs some bold, offseason changes to get back on track- but there's no real evidence that JR has the inclination or the ability to execute aggressive changes quickly.

No doubt about it (to quote Frank Thomas). The Sox need bold moves to get out of their malaise. The baseball team obviously has to be the first priority and maybe the movement of Rick Hahn into the GM chair will make a difference; at least we can hope so. I think letting A.J. walk would be a mistake, but I'd say let the other free agents go. Maybe the Yankees would be interested in Dunn. Maybe Boston would be interested in Floyd. Neither team is averse to big contracts. I'm thinking out loud here.

The Sox don't have a buzz that gets people excited. Those of us who are deep-rooted fans will always be around but the Sox also have to compete for attention from casual fans and the generally curious.

Dan McGrath wrote a piece (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/14853007-419/a-lifelong-white-sox-fan-hawks-president-john-mcdonough-is-what-south-siders-need.html) in the Sun-Times a couple of weeks ago suggesting that the Sox hire John McDonough away from the Blackhawks. His argument is that McDonough is very good at what he does (Cubs, Hawks) and he's a legitimate Sox fan to boot. I don't know if he's the answer or not, but it's that kind of thinking the Sox need.

Despite their comically bad record the Cubs successfully occupied a position that puts them, or more specifically their ballpark, in the center of a young-adult Neverland of good times and recreational comfort. They don't deserve it, of course, but life ain't fair. The Sox need to create their own buzz and it has to be a combination of good baseball and an unapologetic identity. It'll take time but I really think it can be done.

Noneck
10-01-2012, 01:13 PM
1. Not really a means to completely overhaul now. Konerko, Dunn, Danks, Rios will at least comprise half of the payroll. So it will be fill in the blanks time again and there will be many blanks to fill, mainly the pitching staff, probably from within and that is very far from a sure thing but a very economical one.

2. I sure hope they start rebuilding and throw money in all aspects of the minor league system. But that produces revenue in the distant future and this organization has the live for the day mentality, so I doubt it will happen.

3. Attendance has dropped every year since 2006 and the clubs value keeps increasing, so whatever they are doing seems to be working.

4. TV and radio ratings keep increasing, so I assume there is no need for a change there.

Basically it comes down to, what you see is what you will keep getting, as long as the bottom line stays healthy.

hawkjt
10-01-2012, 01:19 PM
My inclination is to say that the immediate future is very bleak,but I said that last January,and somehow,the Sox came up with a very solid season,and are not eliminated with 3 games left....still disappointing,no doubt,but a very nice run while it lasted.

Still, I agree that the older guys mentioned are probably gone. Danks has got to come back and be as good as Peavy. If Floyd is gone, they need to replace him with a veteran solid pitcher. The rotation could be ok,still.

My main concern is the lack of high average hitters to replace Youk, and AJ. The outfield is set,but Tank has to hit better. They need a good hitter at 3rd base....find one. And if AJ is gone, we need a bat,as Flowers is just not dependable offensively.

I think a few smart moves can keep this team competitive as they get younger...buying some time for recent draftees to mature. The Tigers will get Martinez back next year,and are going to be very tough for the next few years....Sox need to develop young players in the minors to be ready when the Tigers fade. It is a bitter pill,but it is a plan.

russ99
10-01-2012, 01:26 PM
My inclination is to say that the immediate future is very bleak,but I said that last January,and somehow,the Sox came up with a very solid season,and are not eliminated with 3 games left....still disappointing,no doubt,but a very nice run while it lasted.

Still, I agree that the older guys mentioned are probably gone. Danks has got to come back and be as good as Peavy. If Floyd is gone, they need to replace him with a veteran solid pitcher. The rotation could be ok,still.

My main concern is the lack of high average hitters to replace Youk, and AJ. The outfield is set,but Tank has to hit better. They need a good hitter at 3rd base....find one. And if AJ is gone, we need a bat,as Flowers is just not dependable offensively.

I think a few smart moves can keep this team competitive as they get younger...buying some time for recent draftees to mature. The Tigers will get Martinez back next year,and are going to be very tough for the next few years....Sox need to develop young players in the minors to be ready when the Tigers fade. It is a bitter pill,but it is a plan.

Also, Tank and Beckham are first year arbitration eligible (with Viciedo represented by Boras) considering the raises they'll get vs. performance, it's at least 50-50 one of them may not be back. But that would mean we'd need to add a starter, 3B, C, and 2B/LF, which may be too much to rework in one offseason.

JB98
10-01-2012, 01:27 PM
Complete overhaul? No, but I think some significant change is needed. You can't just tinker around the margins and expect different results.

I think the Sox are set at four positions next year: 1B, 2B, SS and RF.

I know people are not going to be happy with me including 2B in that list, but from where I'm sitting, the up-the-middle defense of Beckham and Ramirez is the strength of this team. That's not something you break apart. That's something you build around. I know neither of them is great offensively, but the two have combined for 25 HRs, 132 RBIs and roughly 120 runs scored. That production is fine batting eighth and ninth when coupled with top-flight defense at critical positions.

Konerko is going to be 37 years old on Opening Day next year. He's got one year left on his contract. He's more valuable to the White Sox than he would be in any trade. You bring him back to play out his deal. Rios had a terrific year and has earned the RF job for next season. As his teammates have crumbled around him, he has continued to play good baseball down the stretch.

You face free-agency decisions on Youkilis and Pierzynski. At least one will leave, if not both. De Aza, if he's healthy, I think can be part of the solution. The main problem with Alejandro is his body broke down in the second half. Can we trust him to hold up for a whole season? Not sure, but I do like what he brings.

Offensively, as a whole, you've got a low OBP team. You've got a slow team. They hit a lot of home runs, but they lack balance and struggle to score in other ways. Ultimately, you have to ask yourself what players can be traded to bring yourself back into balance? I think Dunn and Viciedo are the players you shop. They both have value, and they could bring value in return. I think the Sox need to sacrifice some power to get more speed and OBP in the lineup.

You also have a problem with depth. You've got six of your starting nine over 30, and maybe it just wasn't realistic to ask a group of 32- to 36-year-olds to play 140 games and get you over the finish line. These older players broke down at the end of the season. They had to ride these guys hard because they didn't have capable backups.

If you can move Dunn's contract for a couple useful pieces, you free up some money and you can go shopping. You've also got money coming off the books with Peavy. If Jake walks, and I assume he will, you do need to find another starting pitcher somewhere. But sometimes, you can replace a $15 million a year player with three guys whose salary adds up to the same total, and your team will be better for it.

It's going to be an interesting offseason. There's a lot of different ways you can look at the problems the Sox are having, not only on the field but with attendance and marketing as well.

Golden Sox
10-01-2012, 01:27 PM
The only players I think the White Sox can trade and get something decent in return are Sale, Rios and Dunn. I dearly hope its Dunn that is traded. I would think AJ will be back with the White Sox next year. AJ and DeAza are our only left handed hitters on the team who are any good. Hopefully John Danks will come back next year and have a good season.

DeadMoney
10-01-2012, 01:29 PM
No doubt about it (to quote Frank Thomas). The Sox need bold moves to get out of their malaise. The baseball team obviously has to be the first priority and maybe the movement of Rick Hahn into the GM chair will make a difference; at least we can hope so. I think letting A.J. walk would be a mistake, but I'd say let the other free agents go. Maybe the Yankees would be interested in Dunn. Maybe Boston would be interested in Floyd. Neither team is averse to big contracts. I'm thinking out loud here.

The Sox don't have a buzz that gets people excited. Those of us who are deep-rooted fans will always be around but the Sox also have to compete for attention from casual fans and the generally curious.

Dan McGrath wrote a piece (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/14853007-419/a-lifelong-white-sox-fan-hawks-president-john-mcdonough-is-what-south-siders-need.html) in the Sun-Times a couple of weeks ago suggesting that the Sox hire John McDonough away from the Blackhawks. His argument is that McDonough is very good at what he does (Cubs, Hawks) and he's a legitimate Sox fan to boot. I don't know if he's the answer or not, but it's that kind of thinking the Sox need.

Despite their comically bad record the Cubs successfully occupied a position that puts them, or more specifically their ballpark, in the center of a young-adult Neverland of good times and recreational comfort. They don't deserve it, of course, but life ain't fair. The Sox need to create their own buzz and it has to be a combination of good baseball and an unapologetic identity. It'll take time but I really think it can be done.

I completely agree with this. Create a fresh identity for the entire franchise that isn't one of the media, GM, players and other team's players bashing the fans for not showing up.

Noneck
10-01-2012, 01:34 PM
I have already read from a couple posters that they think Dunn has potential return in a trade. I dont think so and remember, everything that we see in Dunn, major league GMs see also. A salary dump maybe but getting pieces, I doubt that.

JB98
10-01-2012, 01:45 PM
I have already read from a couple posters that they think Dunn has potential return in a trade. I dont think so and remember, everything that we see in Dunn, major league GMs see also. A salary dump maybe but getting pieces, I doubt that.

Well, you're not going to get an everyday middle-of-the-order hitter in return, that's for sure. I think you might be able to get a relief pitcher and a fifth infielder or something like that for Dunn. Not splash acquisitions, but useful parts that this team needs. Then, you get the salary relief and look to fill other holes.

doublem23
10-01-2012, 01:54 PM
I have already read from a couple posters that they think Dunn has potential return in a trade. I dont think so and remember, everything that we see in Dunn, major league GMs see also. A salary dump maybe but getting pieces, I doubt that.

Ha ha, if AJ and Youk depart via free agency, as expected, trading away Dunn would remove the Sox's 3rd, 4th, and 5th most productive hitters from this season. I can't wait to see everyone's reaction to that.

24thStFan
10-01-2012, 02:09 PM
I think the Sox are set at four positions next year: 1B, 2B, SS and RF....

You face free-agency decisions on Youkilis and Pierzynski. At least one will leave, if not both...

Offensively, as a whole, you've got a low OBP team. You've got a slow team. They hit a lot of home runs, but they lack balance and struggle to score in other ways... I think the Sox need to sacrifice some power to get more speed and OBP in the lineup.


Excellent analysis and I agree totally with the points I quoted.

We need a high OBP 3B, but I'm not sure who is available via free agency who meets the criteria. I'd keep AJ at catcher. He's had a great year and I think he handles young pitchers very well.

I'd let Peavy and Floyd go, and take my chances that Cooper can develop some of our younger guys and any new pitchers brought in as free agents. He's had some success doing this in the past.

That leaves De Aza and Viciedo. Both had some hot streaks this year and might have some trade value. But both are relatively young and could develop further. I really am unsure about what to do with these two.

SoxSpeed22
10-01-2012, 02:13 PM
I agree that we are sorely lacking a franchise face, Konerko is a great player, but he is a fall in line type of person (here's hoping Courtney Hawkins becomes that guy :gulp:), but a lot of things have to change offensively in order for them to turn into a legit contender for a while. There must be more balance in this lineup in order to have more consistency.
With the pitching staff, there are plenty of young guys, but we should no longer rely on other team's castoffs/baggage. We might be okay with pitching as long as there are no catastrophic injuries.
As for the coaches, Robin and Manto will have to take some heat for the way things went this month. Robin will have to learn that the team will take on his personality, if he panics and overcorrects like he did in September, the results will follow.
So to answer the initial question, this is not a patch a few holes situation, this is a redo parts of the foundation.

aryzner
10-01-2012, 02:23 PM
We need a high OBP 3B, but I'm not sure who is available via free agency who meets the criteria.

At a quick glance at what I could find by searching just now, you aren't gonna find that via free agency.

JB98
10-01-2012, 02:29 PM
Ha ha, if AJ and Youk depart via free agency, as expected, trading away Dunn would remove the Sox's 3rd, 4th, and 5th most productive hitters from this season. I can't wait to see everyone's reaction to that.

Well, it depends on how those players are replaced. I remember I had an absolute meltdown when Carlos Lee was traded after the 2004 season. I thought, "No way they can replace the production of both Lee AND Ordonez."

I don't know that they replaced the production, per se, but they changed the mix and they won with it. Right now, I'm thinking they need to change the mix. That's an easy thing for me to post on a message board and a hard thing for a GM to do, of course. Geez, Youk is likely gonna walk, and what do you do at 3B? We have nothing in the organization, and the best available 3B in free agency is, well, none other than Youk. Tough situation there.

I think you have to explore trading Dunn, because if his 40 HRs has value to the Sox, then maybe it will have value to somebody else too. And maybe you change the makeup of the team and can get the salary relief you need to fix the holes in the roster. But maybe NoNeck is right and Dunn has no value to other GMs. I'm not sure.

We're all talking out our asses here, and it will be interesting to see what the Sox actually do.

aryzner
10-01-2012, 02:33 PM
According to Cot's, these are the FA third basemen in 2013:

* – player whose current contract includes 2013 option

Geoff Blum
Miguel Cairo
Eric Chavez
Mark DeRosa
Brandon Inge *
Maicer Izturis
Chipper Jones *
Kevin Kouzmanoff
Jose Lopez
Placido Polanco *
Mark Reynolds *
Scott Rolen
Ty Wigginton
David Wright *
Kevin Youkilis *

October26
10-01-2012, 02:39 PM
No doubt about it (to quote Frank Thomas). The Sox need bold moves to get out of their malaise. The baseball team obviously has to be the first priority and maybe the movement of Rick Hahn into the GM chair will make a difference; at least we can hope so. I think letting A.J. walk would be a mistake, but I'd say let the other free agents go. Maybe the Yankees would be interested in Dunn. Maybe Boston would be interested in Floyd. Neither team is averse to big contracts. I'm thinking out loud here.

The Sox don't have a buzz that gets people excited. Those of us who are deep-rooted fans will always be around but the Sox also have to compete for attention from casual fans and the generally curious.

Dan McGrath wrote a piece (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/14853007-419/a-lifelong-white-sox-fan-hawks-president-john-mcdonough-is-what-south-siders-need.html) in the Sun-Times a couple of weeks ago suggesting that the Sox hire John McDonough away from the Blackhawks. His argument is that McDonough is very good at what he does (Cubs, Hawks) and he's a legitimate Sox fan to boot. I don't know if he's the answer or not, but it's that kind of thinking the Sox need.

Despite their comically bad record the Cubs successfully occupied a position that puts them, or more specifically their ballpark, in the center of a young-adult Neverland of good times and recreational comfort. They don't deserve it, of course, but life ain't fair. The Sox need to create their own buzz and it has to be a combination of good baseball and an unapologetic identity. It'll take time but I really think it can be done.

I agree with this post, especially the part about life not being fair. I am also hopeful that the Sox can create this identify of which you speak. And we both know from experience that winning cures all ills.

tstrike2000
10-01-2012, 02:39 PM
Well, it depends on how those players are replaced. I remember I had an absolute meltdown when Carlos Lee was traded after the 2004 season. I thought, "No way they can replace the production of both Lee AND Ordonez."

I don't know that they replaced the production, per se, but they changed the mix and they won with it. Right now, I'm thinking they need to change the mix. That's an easy thing for me to post on a message board and a hard thing for a GM to do, of course. Geez, Youk is likely gonna walk, and what do you do at 3B? We have nothing in the organization, and the best available 3B in free agency is, well, none other than Youk. Tough situation there.

I think you have to explore trading Dunn, because if his 40 HRs has value to the Sox, then maybe it will have value to somebody else too. And maybe you change the makeup of the team and can get the salary relief you need to fix the holes in the roster. But maybe NoNeck is right and Dunn has no value to other GMs. I'm not sure.

We're all talking out our asses here, and it will be interesting to see what the Sox actually do.

With Dunn owed 15 million for both '13 and '14, I wouldn't imagine anyone would bite on that one.

bigsoxfan420
10-01-2012, 02:41 PM
I'm thinking MBA.

tstrike2000
10-01-2012, 02:43 PM
I'm thinking MBA.

Kellogg, if you can get in there.

FielderJones
10-01-2012, 02:46 PM
Dan McGrath wrote a piece (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/14853007-419/a-lifelong-white-sox-fan-hawks-president-john-mcdonough-is-what-south-siders-need.html) in the Sun-Times a couple of weeks ago suggesting that the Sox hire John McDonough away from the Blackhawks. His argument is that McDonough is very good at what he does (Cubs, Hawks) and he's a legitimate Sox fan to boot. I don't know if he's the answer or not, but it's that kind of thinking the Sox need.

I think there is no question that McDonough is very good at what he does, and has a track record. Consider what he was given to work with in the two franchises he has marketed. If JR really is interested in putting fans in the seats, this would be his number one move.

Domeshot17
10-01-2012, 02:47 PM
Need an impact hitter at 3b, that needs to be the goal. The only way you can stomach Gordon Beckham's offense is with him hitting 9th and it not making much difference. His D is great, but if you have someone that weak in the lineup, you can't be weak at a bunch of other positions. I don't see them letting Tank go early in his career, although I would consider it.

But the Sox lack a hitter who can carry the team. I would consider a run at David Wright personally.

Its also the type of move that can fire up a fan base. The reason the fans did not come out was there was not much to ever be that excited about. I know they had a nice stretch in first place, but had the Tigers ever really tried, they would have buried us long ago. Most fans knew this and it was hard to really believe in this team. Even with getting Youk, Brett Meyers, these are not moves that fire up the fans.

I think Brooks needs to go personally, The guy would be better off Marketing for the Cubs, but he is so hell bent on changing the fan base that it prevents him from getting in touch with who Sox fans really are. He has no idea what his target market is.

JB98
10-01-2012, 02:48 PM
With Dunn owed 15 million for both '13 and '14, I wouldn't imagine anyone would bite on that one.

Maybe not, but I think the Sox should try. All it takes is one GM who thinks 40 HRs and 100 RBIs is worth a $15 million per year investment.

JB98
10-01-2012, 02:51 PM
Need an impact hitter at 3b, that needs to be the goal. The only way you can stomach Gordon Beckham's offense is with him hitting 9th and it not making much difference. His D is great, but if you have someone that weak in the lineup, you can't be weak at a bunch of other positions. I don't see them letting Tank go early in his career, although I would consider it.

But the Sox lack a hitter who can carry the team. I would consider a run at David Wright personally.

Its also the type of move that can fire up a fan base. The reason the fans did not come out was there was not much to ever be that excited about. I know they had a nice stretch in first place, but had the Tigers ever really tried, they would have buried us long ago. Most fans knew this and it was hard to really believe in this team. Even with getting Youk, Brett Meyers, these are not moves that fire up the fans.

I think Brooks needs to go personally, The guy would be better off Marketing for the Cubs, but he is so hell bent on changing the fan base that it prevents him from getting in touch with who Sox fans really are. He has no idea what his target market is.

Who wouldn't? Is it a given the Mets are going to decline the team option?

24thStFan
10-01-2012, 02:53 PM
According to Cot's, these are the FA third basemen in 2013:

* – player whose current contract includes 2013 option

Geoff Blum
Miguel Cairo
Eric Chavez
Mark DeRosa
Brandon Inge *
Maicer Izturis
Chipper Jones *
Kevin Kouzmanoff
Jose Lopez
Placido Polanco *
Mark Reynolds *
Scott Rolen
Ty Wigginton
David Wright *
Kevin Youkilis *

There are some names on this list worth talking about. Is David Wright a complete impossibility? Eric Chavez and Mark Reynolds have decent OBPs, too.

Let's hope their current clubs let them go.

eriqjaffe
10-01-2012, 02:58 PM
Mark ReynoldsThat would be like having Adam Dunn on the roster twice. Pass.

24thStFan
10-01-2012, 03:07 PM
That would be like having Adam Dunn on the roster twice. Pass.


That's true he does strike out a lot. I've been avoiding work this afternoon by looking up free agent stats (thanks to sites named by WSIers) and am I right that Melky Cabrera and Angel Pagan are both FAs?

Assuming we make some moves, could the Sox go after any of them?

In my fantasy the Sox sign Wright and Cabrera in the off-season!

SCCWS
10-01-2012, 03:12 PM
But the Sox lack a hitter who can carry the team. I would consider a run at David Wright personally.

Its also the type of move that can fire up a fan base. The reason the fans did not come out was there was not much to ever be that excited about. I know they had a nice stretch in first place, but had the Tigers ever really tried, they would have buried us long ago. Most fans knew this and it was hard to really believe in this team. Even with getting Youk, Brett Meyers, these are not moves that fire up the fans.
.

If this is true, I think the fan base problems are much deeper. The White Sox were in first place and featured a stud starting pitcher when they acquired Youk. Having watched his impact in Boston for many years, he was a very popular blue collar player. Youk jerseys are everywhere. Now he arrives in Chicago and goes on a tear. If that diid not attract an immediate boost in ticket sales, especially since the team was playing well, then adding a David Wright under a rebuilding scenario is not the answer.

I think the White Sox medical staff need to figure out Youk's current health situation. This is not the same Youk that played in Boston. But if his decline is an injury problem that could be taken care of, maybe he is a player the White Sox retain especially if you can unload Dunn to an NL team. He did show the ability to do a decent job at 1st base. Maybe the Mets could be convinced to take him and sell him as a gate attraction.

aryzner
10-01-2012, 03:23 PM
There are some names on this list worth talking about. Is David Wright a complete impossibility? Eric Chavez and Mark Reynolds have decent OBPs, too.

Let's hope their current clubs let them go.

In my opinion, David Wright is a pipe dream.

I agree with what others have said about Reynolds, and Chavez hasn't played a full season (150+ games in my mind to qualify) since 2005. Remarkably, he's been pretty healthy for the Yankees this season, though.

Huisj
10-01-2012, 03:26 PM
Maybe not, but I think the Sox should try. All it takes is one GM who thinks 40 HRs and 100 RBIs is worth a $15 million per year investment.

I could maybe see Dunn going in a sort of change-of-scenery deal for a formerly big prospect who has failed in multiple chances and another spare part. Someone like a Justin Smoak sort of player, except I don't really know why Seattle would want Dunn, so that's probably not likely anyway.

Looking around a various rosters, it is rather hard to find a fit for a trade involving Dunn.

floridafan
10-01-2012, 03:41 PM
At a quick glance at what I could find by searching just now, you aren't gonna find that via free agency.


Hey! My Guy is working out at 3rd in Advanced Instructs right now! Let's call him up!

:D:

tstrike2000
10-01-2012, 03:44 PM
Maybe not, but I think the Sox should try. All it takes is one GM who thinks 40 HRs and 100 RBIs is worth a $15 million per year investment.

Definitely, and like you said, all depends what Hahn does from there.

SephClone89
10-01-2012, 03:51 PM
Who wouldn't? Is it a given the Mets are going to decline the team option?

There are some names on this list worth talking about. Is David Wright a complete impossibility?

Wright has just had an MVP-caliber season, and just set the Mets all-time hits record. They're going to sign him up long-term, I think. They don't have all that much other money tied up.

LITTLE NELL
10-01-2012, 03:57 PM
With no phenom position players in the minors on the near horizon the Sox are going to have to rebuild with free agents. There are hardly any untouchables on this team, I would keep Rios (only 5 tool player on the team), Sale, Reed, Nate Jones and Quintana. Danks has to stay because who will take a chance with him. PK stays also but as a DH. Viciedo still has an up-side but needs to be more selective and not swing so damn hard, he is still a kid and might figure it out but a guy like TCM never has. I'm not sure about Beckham, great glove but will we ever see 2009 again. Seemed like he had the right field gap figured out that year which always meant a double or even a triple. The way this team hit the last month one wonders if Greg Walker was really the problem.

TomBradley72
10-01-2012, 04:01 PM
Personally- I'd trade Dunn as a salary dump only- I don't care if we get anything back for him- the streaky homers and rbis are not worth the strike outs and aggregate .184 batting average since joining the Sox.

I've never been a fan of big, long term contracts for DHs- that role is perfect for the aging NL position player who has a few years left or other, cheaper, year by year options while preserving some roster flexibility.

Procol Harum
10-01-2012, 04:10 PM
Maybe not, but I think the Sox should try. All it takes is one GM who thinks 40 HRs and 100 RBIs is worth a $15 million per year investment.

I am appreciative of what Dunn did this year in terms of rebounding from his own personal Purgatory of 2011--yeah, low ba, but w/o his homers, rbis, and walks in the first half the Sox would never have gotten as far as they did (a mixed blessing?).

That said, I'm thinking there need to be some major moves on the South Side--I'd be more than happy if the Sox ate a few million of that $15 million price tag if it meant some good prospects, particularly for the bullpen. At $10-11 million you might be able to find another GM that might be willing to accept an offer.

Also agree with two major points of the original post:

1.) Brooks Boyer needs to either come with a new marketing plan or needs to call it a day. "Stale" would be the right way to describe the feel of the Sox brand at this point.

2.) Farmer and Jackson must be shown the gate (doubt it will ever happen, though). If there's a bump to Sox ratings in recent years I think that's mainly the result of games being on 670 (improved signal strength, particularly in the western burbs) instead of 1000.

WhiteSox5187
10-01-2012, 04:36 PM
There have been a lot of great points made in this thread but I will add in my two cents here and say while I don't think the White Sox need a COMPLETE overhaul I think they need a MAJOR overhaul.

doublem23
10-01-2012, 04:43 PM
That said, I'm thinking there need to be some major moves on the South Side--I'd be more than happy if the Sox ate a few million of that $15 million price tag if it meant some good prospects, particularly for the bullpen. At $10-11 million you might be able to find another GM that might be willing to accept an offer.

Not that I approve, at all, of moving Dunn, but I really don't think the Sox are in any need of prospects for the bullpen; Veal, Jones, Reed, and to a lesser extent, Omogrosso and Santiago have shown signs of being dependable relief pitchers. Not to mention, I don't know what team goes out and trades one it's most productive bats for bullpen pitchers; the Sox seem to have an OK stable of young starters in Sale and Quintana, what we're lacking is young, impact position players. You've got Viciedo who is kind of a mixed bag, De Aza who will probably be dependable for another year or so, Beckham who is all glove and no bat and then a bunch of scraps. If you're going to move Dunn, I'd at least they'd hope to get someone who may be able to replace some of his production in the lineup.

TheOldRoman
10-01-2012, 04:45 PM
I know they had a nice stretch in first place, but had the Tigers ever really tried, they would have buried us long ago. Most fans knew this and it was hard to really believe in this team. Even with getting Youk, Brett Meyers, these are not moves that fire up the fans. Bull. It goes hand-in-hand with thinking the Sox overachieved, but both are false. Basically, people don't want to admit they were wrong about the Sox being bad and wrong about the Tigers being really good. The Tigers "tried" the entire year. They weren't a great team by any means. They are far-and-away the worst defensive team in baseball. They have flaws. And the Sox, even with their complete collapse/choke will still finish with with 83-86 wins. So even if Detroit "really tried" for the entire season, The Sox would have still been within distance of the division lead and the wildcards up until about a week ago.

I do agree that there was a large number of miserable bastards who held out because they didn't believe in the team. However, the team was playing good baseball for most of the year until two weeks ago. That's what it's all about. No team is going to win the division every year, but if you can buy a ticket to see exciting, winning baseball, that is pretty much all you can ask for. If they need to have their team's asses kissed by all the preseason experts just to buy in to the product, well, they will wait a long time because the Sox get crapped on even when they're good.

I would love to see the Sox sign David Wright, but someone will pay WAY too much for him. Besides, that isn't a move which would bring people to the park. I mean, he's a really good player, he's young and good looking, so he has marketability. However, there are only a handful of players in baseball which would make people buy tickets. Devout baseball fans know who David Wright is, but the average guy who casually follows the Sox and sometimes goes to games doesn't. Pujols, Mauer, Verlander, A-Roid and Jeter would potentially sell tickets, but not David Wright. What would create buzz? I don't know. It seems like this year was some sort of turning point, where the fanbase decided it was through with the team or something. Outside of 2009 Yankees free agency binge or winning a world series the year before, I don't think this team will generate enough buzz to get a big spike in attendance.

I also agree that Brooks has overstayed his welcome. He seemed like such a breathe of fresh air when he came. Everything he did struck gold the first year and a half. Since then, it's been pretty much just failure and he seems out of touch. I think McDonough could work wonders here, but I don't know if management would give him the level of control he would desire.

WhiteSox5187
10-01-2012, 04:47 PM
Not that I approve, at all, of moving Dunn, but I really don't think the Sox are in any need of prospects for the bullpen; Veal, Jones, Reed, and to a lesser extent, Omogrosso and Santiago have shown signs of being dependable relief pitchers. Not to mention, I don't know what team goes out and trades one it's most productive bats for bullpen pitchers; the Sox seem to have an OK stable of young starters in Sale and Quintana, what we're lacking is young, impact position players. You've got Viciedo who is kind of a mixed bag, De Aza who will probably be dependable for another year or so, Beckham who is all glove and no bat and then a bunch of scraps. If you're going to move Dunn, I'd at least they'd hope to get someone who may be able to replace some of his production in the lineup.

I don't think that two young starting pitchers quantifies as a stable. I agree with you that I don't think there is much point in trading for young bullpen arms as we have a surplus of those right now but I would have no problem trading Dunn for another young starting pitcher and/or young impact position player.

tstrike2000
10-01-2012, 04:50 PM
If KW's promoted to President, no way McDonough's coming here, even if it is a good idea. Unless he's given some other title.

aryzner
10-01-2012, 04:53 PM
Well starting pitching-wise, it's who?

Sale
Quintana
Danks
Floyd (Option for 2013 if I am right?)
Peavy (Something like a $22M option likely to be declined)
Santiago?

For what it's worth, according to this report (http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2012/09/peavy-may-be-his-own-agent-in-.html), Peavy is quoted as saying he would like to "work something out" to stay with the Sox.

I don't think it'll happen, but you never know.

To be honest, I'm kind of excited for a healthy Danks to be back pitching in a rotation with a more experienced Sale.

doublem23
10-01-2012, 04:56 PM
I don't think that two young starting pitchers quantifies as a stable. I agree with you that I don't think there is much point in trading for young bullpen arms as we have a surplus of those right now but I would have no problem trading Dunn for another young starting pitcher and/or young impact position player.

Please. Find me another team in baseball that has two 23-year-old starters on its roster that combined to throw 328.1 IP this year with an combined 3.34 ERA.

I know, I know, KW should have bluechip prospects at all 25 roster spots, otherwise he's a ****ing failure, but it seems like that's a distinction many teams will be hard pressed to meet.

WhiteSox5187
10-01-2012, 05:01 PM
Please. Find me another team in baseball that has two 23-year-old starters on its roster that combined to throw 328.1 IP this year with an combined 3.34 ERA.

I know, I know, KW should have bluechip prospects at all 25 roster spots, otherwise he's a ****ing failure, but it seems like that's a distinction many teams will be hard pressed to meet.

If you only have two starting pitchers worth a damn you're in trouble. The rotation next year is VERY iffy. You have Sale, Quintana (who might be good but also posted a 5.01 ERA with a 1.6 WHIP in September), Danks - who is coming off of an injury and did not look good when he was healthy, and a maddeningly inconsistent Floyd. Are you going to say that this team couldn't use another young starter? There is no team in baseball that COULDN'T use one.

DeadMoney
10-01-2012, 05:09 PM
Please. Find me another team in baseball that has two 23-year-old starters on its roster that combined to throw 328.1 IP this year with an combined 3.34 ERA.

I know, I know, KW should have bluechip prospects at all 25 roster spots, otherwise he's a ****ing failure, but it seems like that's a distinction many teams will be hard pressed to meet.

Not QUITE that young, but 26, 26, 26, 23 isn't bad...
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhx9CdgikKuUcqb0f2LFpvuxMEMDVL_ LyJL0YAC1upVooFyvV8

Nellie_Fox
10-01-2012, 05:10 PM
Nobody else in baseball thought Dunn was worth what the Sox offered him two years ago. Why would they think he's worth it now, when he's had one absolutely execrable season and one good half, one bad half-season since?

doublem23
10-01-2012, 05:10 PM
If you only have two starting pitchers worth a damn you're in trouble. The rotation next year is VERY iffy. You have Sale, Quintana (who might be good but also posted a 5.01 ERA with a 1.6 WHIP in September), Danks - who is coming off of an injury and did not look good when he was healthy, and a maddeningly inconsistent Floyd. Are you going to say that this team couldn't use another young starter? There is no team in baseball that COULDN'T use one.

No. ****ing. ****. I didn't post that the Sox have Sale and Quintana, so we're good with the rotation guys, I'm sure they can each handle 81 starts next year. What I posted was that the Sox's biggest area of need for young, impact players is in the field. With Sale and Quintana that arguably gives the Sox one of the best young 1-2 punch in baseball right now (though, admittedly, most of that rests on Sale who pitched like a legitimate Cy Young candidate for most of the year). There is absolutely nothing of value in the field right now, other than Dayan's in the couple of weeks a year he gets hot and Gordon so long as you don't watch him bat. That's where the Sox need young players.

LITTLE NELL
10-01-2012, 05:13 PM
I don't think this team will generate enough buzz to get a big spike in attendance.

The fans will come back with some exciting free agent signings along with lower ticket and parking prices. They need to build the Season Ticket Base up, lower ticket prices should do that, we also will see a better walk-up crowd with lower prices. The Sox always did great with Walk-ups especially in the old ballpark.

WhiteSox5187
10-01-2012, 05:21 PM
No. ****ing. ****. I didn't post that the Sox have Sale and Quintana, so we're good with the rotation guys, I'm sure they can each handle 81 starts next year. What I posted was that the Sox's biggest area of need for young, impact players is in the field. With Sale and Quintana that arguably gives the Sox one of the best young 1-2 punch in baseball right now (though, admittedly, most of that rests on Sale who pitched like a legitimate Cy Young candidate for most of the year). There is absolutely nothing of value in the field right now, other than Dayan's in the couple of weeks a year he gets hot and Gordon so long as you don't watch him bat. That's where the Sox need young players.

My opinion here is that you hold Quintana in too high of regard, I think he is still a bit of a question mark but I don't think he is the kind of guy you can pencil down as a legitimate number two guy yet. He certainly could become that but I think it would be unwise for the White Sox to pencil him as a number two guy for the whole season IF they intend to contend next year. If they want to develop guys and see what they got, then why not.

doublem23
10-01-2012, 05:24 PM
My opinion here is that you hold Quintana in too high of regard, I think he is still a bit of a question mark but I don't think he is the kind of guy you can pencil down as a legitimate number two guy yet. He certainly could become that but I think it would be unwise for the White Sox to pencil him as a number two guy for the whole season IF they intend to contend next year. If they want to develop guys and see what they got, then why not.

Maybe I do, but the numbers don't lie, he gave the Sox 150 innings this year with an ERA in the mid-3's... How many 23-year-old pitchers can say that?

Lip Man 1
10-01-2012, 05:45 PM
My guess right now on the rotation next year:

Sale
Quintana
Danks
Floyd
???

Could be Santiago, could be Leesman could be a low cost free agent.

I'm assuming Floyd returns because until Danks actually gets on the mound and starts throwing and is effective, you just don't know what he's going to give you.

Lip

TaylorStSox
10-01-2012, 05:50 PM
The roster is kind of a mess. I'm in favor of a youth movement, as the core is old and not really that good to begin with.

Line up
C - Flowers/vet back up (Paying an old AJ isn't the right move)
1 - Dunn (trade PK for salary dump. Moving Dunn isn't realistic)
2 - Beckham (September was encouraging. His defense is overrated, yet very good)
SS - Ramirez (IF defense is key for a young staff)
3 - Ouch. I really don't know. Sanchez?
LF - De Aza (give the youth some time to catch up)
CF - Thompson or Walker (neither is ready, but their upside is worth the risk IMO)
RF - Viciedo (capitalize on Rios' resurgence. Try to get value)
DH - dreaded rotating DH to maximize match ups

De Aza
Sanchez
Viciedo
Dunn
Flowers
Ramirez
Thompson/Walker
Beckham

God, that line up is awfully RH'd :o:

Starting staff - This is a tough one. They have 5 good starters, but the problem is they'll have 4 lefties.

1 - Sale
2 - Danks
3 - Floyd
4 - Quintana
5 - Santiago

Pen - Build around the kids.

Reed (I still believe in his FB. His slider needs more tilt. He might just be worn out)
Jones (great stuff, needs experience)
Veal (All purpose, nasty lefty)
Thornton (Probably can't get value anyway. Slider looks better at least)

Obviously there are still some roster spots to fill, but this is the core. I'm not naive enough to think this team will be good, it won't. There are still too many guys that don't walk enough and K way, way too much. However, they'll have pop and be very good defensively. They'll be fairly young and exciting. It'll bide time until a very underrated farm develops. Of Thompson, Walker, Mitchell, Barnum and Hawkins, you have a lot of upside and possibly star potential.

Draft

Continue to carry over the new draft philosophy. Use early picks to draft high upside athletes. Use the latter picks to draft high floor baseball players.

Marketing

I'd focus on re-branding to attract a younger crowd. The Sox have a good core of fans, but need to work on a new generation. I'd reduce prices while emphasizing the ballpark experience. They need to advertise tailgating more and have drastically lower ticket prices. They'll take an initial hit, but it's better for the long haul. The park's nice. The amenities are nice. Sell it. Partner with some South Loop establishments for post/pre game entertainment. The park's fun. Try to build a culture around it. If Bridgeport won't embrace it, the South Loop will. Let people know they're a couple train stops away from nightlife.

Lose Hawk and get some knowledgeable, young talent in the booth. The game's changing and the younger crowd is stat crazy. Cater to them a little.

Thankfully for you guys, I'm not in the Sox front office. :redface:

voodoochile
10-01-2012, 05:58 PM
The window has pretty much closed, IMO. However, if they can somehow restock the SP while keeping the RP good there is room for this team to be competitive for the next year or so. However, it will require the team to once again hit on all cylinders and they are going to have to find a long term answer at 3B and teach Tank the strike zone. Whether Beckham can carry over his offensive success of the last 4-6 weeks of the season will remain to be seen also. He's still not that old nor is he that productive.

I can't see them tearing the whole thing down, but maybe Hahn sees things differently. I imagine one of the issues will be financial. I would bet the Sox have been running a loss the last few years (maybe not this year, but last year) and it's one reason KW has been kicked upstairs (if rumors are correct). If so the Sox maybe cutting payroll or at least not expanding it until they get that money back. However, I admit that's also just a gut feeling. I have nothing concrete to base it on.

COACH2005
10-01-2012, 06:19 PM
No way they can trade Dunn unless they eat a lot of the contract

WLL1855
10-01-2012, 07:21 PM
Line up
C - Flowers/vet back up (Paying an old AJ isn't the right move)
1 - Dunn (trade PK for salary dump. Moving Dunn isn't realistic)
2 - Beckham (September was encouraging. His defense is overrated, yet very good)
SS - Ramirez (IF defense is key for a young staff)
3 - Ouch. I really don't know. Sanchez?
LF - De Aza (give the youth some time to catch up)
CF - Thompson or Walker (neither is ready, but their upside is worth the risk IMO)
RF - Viciedo (capitalize on Rios' resurgence. Try to get value)
DH - dreaded rotating DH to maximize match ups


Forgive me for snipping your post but it had to be done.

I honestly think making Flowers the everyday catcher will be Brian Anderson 2.0. If you can live with that, then you're a better person than I am. Personally, I hope we offer AJ a respectable deal (2 yrs - no more) that both sides can live with and he takes it.

PK is a 10 and 5 guy and there aren't many teams he's going to want to move on to. I'd be willing to bet money he retires a White Sox player.

There might be someone out there willing to take Rios but the return isn't going to be much either unless we eat a lot of his contract.

You've got some crazy ideas; I'll give you that. It looks like painful team to watch play.

Tragg
10-01-2012, 07:25 PM
Forgive me for snipping your post but it had to be done.

I honestly think making Flowers the everyday catcher will be Brian Anderson 2.0. If you can live with that, then you're a better person than I am. Personally, I hope we offer AJ a respectable deal (2 yrs - no more) that both sides can live with and he takes it.
Relative to the position, he won't be. There aren't many good hitting catchers. He has some power.

I think this team proved that they cant' win more than 85 games - so if we re-sign everyone it's 85 games. But we won't re-sign everyone, so that leaves us at .500ish. Sounds like a good time to tear down some. If we still had Escobar, we could trade Alexei perhaps. If Mitchell were ready, which he isn't, we could trade Rios (tradeable with 1 year left). Probably will trade Floyd and go with Danks and Sale and 3 5th-starters. Viciedo needs major work on the strike zone. No use messing with Beckham - he won't bring anything in trade and he did have a better last 6 weeks. I'd also trade anyone in the pen except for Reed, although we'd probably get more by waiting until next July.

voodoochile
10-01-2012, 07:26 PM
Forgive me for snipping your post but it had to be done.

I honestly think making Flowers the everyday catcher will be Brian Anderson 2.0. If you can live with that, then you're a better person than I am. Personally, I hope we offer AJ a respectable deal (2 yrs - no more) that both sides can live with and he takes it.

PK is a 10 and 5 guy and there aren't many teams he's going to want to move on to. I'd be willing to bet money he retires a White Sox player.

There might be someone out there willing to take Rios but the return isn't going to be much either unless we eat a lot of his contract.

You've got some crazy ideas; I'll give you that. It looks like painful team to watch play.

The question is, "why?" I mean, can't the kids who will be catching up do that anyway? What are the Sox going to get for Rios and PK that makes this a good idea. If you are going to do actually trade PK then keep Rios in RF and let Viciedo DH and learn first or continue to split time in LF.

TaylorStSox
10-01-2012, 08:00 PM
Forgive me for snipping your post but it had to be done.

I honestly think making Flowers the everyday catcher will be Brian Anderson 2.0. If you can live with that, then you're a better person than I am. Personally, I hope we offer AJ a respectable deal (2 yrs - no more) that both sides can live with and he takes it.

PK is a 10 and 5 guy and there aren't many teams he's going to want to move on to. I'd be willing to bet money he retires a White Sox player.

There might be someone out there willing to take Rios but the return isn't going to be much either unless we eat a lot of his contract.

You've got some crazy ideas; I'll give you that. It looks like painful team to watch play.
1. There's no point in hanging on to AJ. He's bad defensively and I'm talking about a major overhaul of the roster. You might as well see what you have with Flowers. .240/20/70/.330 isn't out of the question and he's a good defender.
2. PK is a 10/5 guy. If he has no desire to move to a contender, it says a lot about him IMO.
3. Rios' contract really isn't bad if he produces to his career averages. I'm sure teams will be willing to eat his salary if he's producing like he did this year. He was a true 5 tool player. They're still rare.

TaylorStSox
10-01-2012, 08:03 PM
Relative to the position, he won't be. There aren't many good hitting catchers. He has some power.

I think this team proved that they cant' win more than 85 games - so if we re-sign everyone it's 85 games. But we won't re-sign everyone, so that leaves us at .500ish. Sounds like a good time to tear down some. If we still had Escobar, we could trade Alexei perhaps. If Mitchell were ready, which he isn't, we could trade Rios (tradeable with 1 year left). Probably will trade Floyd and go with Danks and Sale and 3 5th-starters. Viciedo needs major work on the strike zone. No use messing with Beckham - he won't bring anything in trade and he did have a better last 6 weeks. I'd also trade anyone in the pen except for Reed, although we'd probably get more by waiting until next July.

I'll take Jones and Veal over Reed. Reed's problem is that he has no wipe out pitch right now. His fastball, while lacking some velocity, has good movement, but hitters are sitting dead red on him because they don't respect his slider or change.

JB98
10-01-2012, 08:12 PM
1. There's no point in hanging on to AJ. He's bad defensively and I'm talking about a major overhaul of the roster. You might as well see what you have with Flowers. .240/20/70/.330 isn't out of the question and he's a good defender.
2. PK is a 10/5 guy. If he has no desire to move to a contender, it says a lot about him IMO.
3. Rios' contract really isn't bad if he produces to his career averages. I'm sure teams will be willing to eat his salary if he's producing like he did this year. He was a true 5 tool player. They're still rare.

You realize they won't get anything of consequence for him, right? He's gonna be 37 on Opening Day, and he'll be coming off wrist surgery.

IMO, he's more valuable on the roster than in a trade.

roylestillman
10-01-2012, 08:20 PM
Some real good points on the marketing/attendance issues in this thread.

As dismal as it seemed, attendance was really not as bad as is being portrayed. Given how horrible 2011 was I heard and read that the Sox were bracing for a drop in attendance of 200-250,000 just in dropped season ticket renewals. In the end 2012 attendance was off by only about 35,000 over last year, and ranked 14th highest in the 112 years of the club. Still, to rank 24th in the majors is embarrassing and should be addressed.

At the beginning of the year I thought getting fans in the seats was all about winning and cost. I still think they're important, but the year proved not the only things. They were in first for a good chunk of the year, yet couldn't get a more than a handful of crowds above 30,000. When cheap seats were made available on Monday nights and other late season dates, the jump at the gate was hardly noticeable.

There is simply no buzz around this team. I dropped my partial season tickets this year not because of economics, but because 9 of my 27 sets of tickets went unused. The reason was that I couldn't find anyone who wanted to go. (may say more about me than the Sox, but I'll handle that another time.) Did anyone else notice that while we were on our run this year there was no hook, like the Don't Stop Believing, or Winning Ugly or Southside Hitman thing going on? The team may have talent but it is DULL.

But that is what marketing is all about. Since the beginning of the Ozzie era, the Sox relied on the manager to be the front man or the face of the organization. Fans never got to know the players. Never developed any kind of idea what kind of people they are. Does anybody know what half of these players voices even sound like? I watch MLB's Intentional Talk nearly every day and every day they do a remote interview with a player. In that ten minutes you realize what really funny guys there are out there. Brendan McCarthy being one of them, but when he was with us he wasn't allowed within 300 feet of a microphone. I think over the last year, I only saw Chris Sale interviewed and it sounded like he was given talking points.

People here brought up John McDonough and the Blackhawks analogy. The Sox could learn a lot from what that organization did. A lot of that had to do with getting those players out in front of the cameras and letting people get to know them. Tough to do given that these folks wear masks when they play. Blackhawks TV, including the half hour shows they air are brilliant. You know the players life stories, their wives, their parents and their dogs. You see their lives on and off the ice. Have you ever seen a Sox player like that? The Hawks humanized their players and made people want to go out and see them, selling out a stadium built in the 90's, surrounded by parking lots, in a neighborhood people still think is sketchy even though its not.

I don't think the Sox have fallen out of favor as bad as the Blackhawks did, but I do think they need to go a long way to put them back into the minds of people and get people to talk about going out to see the Sox again

TaylorStSox
10-01-2012, 08:53 PM
You realize they won't get anything of consequence for him, right? He's gonna be 37 on Opening Day, and he'll be coming off wrist surgery.

IMO, he's more valuable on the roster than in a trade.
That's why I called it a salary dump.

Tragg
10-01-2012, 09:15 PM
I'll take Jones and Veal over Reed. Reed's problem is that he has no wipe out pitch right now. His fastball, while lacking some velocity, has good movement, but hitters are sitting dead red on him because they don't respect his slider or change.

Well, I wouldn't. I don't disagree that those 2 have been more effective lately, but I think Reed is more talented and worth waiting for. he may be starter quality if he develop those secondaries.

I really had Crain and Thornton in mind (their contract may be up too, not sure). I'd keep JOnes and Reed.

DSpivack
10-01-2012, 09:25 PM
Well, I wouldn't. I don't disagree that those 2 have been more effective lately, but I think Reed is more talented and worth waiting for. he may be starter quality if he develop those secondaries.

I really had Crain and Thornton in mind (their contract may be up too, not sure). I'd keep JOnes and Reed.

Both are signed through next season.

Lip Man 1
10-01-2012, 10:25 PM
Royle:

One other issue that I haven't seen brought up anyplace. The weather...the Sox got screwed by the schedule makers again with so many April dates in what's usually bad spring weather.

Guess what?

It's worse next season.

Seriously you'd think MLB would realize the Sox are struggling and make some accommodations for when better temps arrive. They've done it in the past for Cleveland for example according to Bob Grim....but when it's the Sox? No can do.

Lip

doublem23
10-01-2012, 10:34 PM
That's why I called it a salary dump.

What's the point of salary dumping if you have no one to replace him?

Railsplitter
10-01-2012, 10:42 PM
In looking at the status of this team and overall organization as we close out a disappointing 2012- to what degree do you think it's time for a significant overhaul across the board (not just on the playing field)?
Major league roster- expensive free agent contracts looming for Peavy, Youkilis and AJ (without any real help in the farm system to replace them)- and saddled with Adam Dunn for another 2 years.
Farm System- some good talent that helped the 2012 team (young pitching especially)- but I don't see alot of guys that could potentially help in 2013 where we need the help.
Marketing- After a strong start- I think Brooks Boyer is running out of gas- if you can't draw 2 million when you spend most of the season you're in 1st place and the cross town team is losing 100 games- I think marketing is accountable. "Dynamic pricing", worn out promotions like Mullett Night, etc., mediocre TV and newspaper advertising, etc.- they seem to really have lost their way in this area.
TV & Radio Announcers- IMHO Farmer & DJ are unlistenable- I only listen when I need a score- but I used to like having the radio on in the background while doing other things during the season- but not with these 2- I think both should be dumped. On the TV side- I'm more of a Hawk fan than most- but he showed a noticable decline this season, and the chemistry just isn't there with Stone.
I think this team needs some bold, offseason changes to get back on track- but there's no real evidence that JR has the inclination or the ability to execute aggressive changes quickly.
You score a bull's eye on all four shots

delben91
10-01-2012, 10:57 PM
The roster is kind of a mess. I'm in favor of a youth movement, as the core is old and not really that good to begin with.


So you're assuming no offseason acquisitions of any kind?

Lip Man 1
10-01-2012, 11:12 PM
Delben:

Depends on what Hahn wants to do and the budget he is allowed to try to do it with.

But I can certainly see a scenario where no meaningful acquisitions are acquired save for some lineup filler's or guys coming off injury willing to take any offer they can.

Lip

TaylorStSox
10-01-2012, 11:13 PM
So you're assuming no offseason acquisitions of any kind?
I'm tired of using band aids to close huge gashes. It's time to tear it down IMO. The core isn't good. PK's old and had a bad second half. AJ's old, can't call a game any more and is more suited to DH. Signing a 36 year old catcher after a career year is about as dumb a move as a team can make. Beckham's a disappointment. We're losing our number 2 starter and he's not that great anyway.

The FA market isn't good to begin with. Even if we had a ton of money to spend, we aren't an attractive destination right now. Even if we did attract a couple guys, it won't be enough to win big. We'll be back to being not quite good enough to get to the playoff's and too good to get a top draft slot.

It's time for a new era. Break it up and start over. We have a new GM and a young staff that would prefer to teach.

DoItForDanPasqua
10-01-2012, 11:16 PM
Some excellent points here. The most troubling is how horrible the farm system is. Aside from some good relief arms that came up, there is little hope to rebuild through that route. They also have $79 million in payroll commitments for next year, so there is not a great deal of money left to replace the players they will lose (unless JR really opens up the pocketbook).

Also, I completely agree about Farmer and DJ. I would rather, and have, listened to the visitor broadcast because I cannot bear to listen to them. I still miss John Rooney.

mrwag
10-01-2012, 11:20 PM
I'm tired of using band aids to close huge gashes. It's time to tear it down IMO. The core isn't good. PK's old and had a bad second half. AJ's old, can't call a game any more and is more suited to DH. Signing a 36 year old catcher after a career year is about as dumb a move as a team can make. Beckham's a disappointment. We're losing our number 2 starter and he's not that great anyway.

The FA market isn't good to begin with. Even if we had a ton of money to spend, we aren't an attractive destination right now. Even if we did attract a couple guys, it won't be enough to win big. We'll be back to being not quite good enough to get to the playoff's and too good to get a top draft slot.

It's time for a new era. Break it up and start over. We have a new GM and a young staff that would prefer to teach.

My sentiments exactly. The "core" is aging and not going to be any better next year than they were this year. It's time for a new direction and that will mean many "white flag" trades this winter, but we should have swallowed the pill and done this a couple years ago IMO.

DoItForDanPasqua
10-01-2012, 11:23 PM
I'm tired of using band aids to close huge gashes. It's time to tear it down IMO. The core isn't good. PK's old and had a bad second half. AJ's old, can't call a game any more and is more suited to DH. Signing a 36 year old catcher after a career year is about as dumb a move as a team can make. Beckham's a disappointment. We're losing our number 2 starter and he's not that great anyway.

The FA market isn't good to begin with. Even if we had a ton of money to spend, we aren't an attractive destination right now. Even if we did attract a couple guys, it won't be enough to win big. We'll be back to being not quite good enough to get to the playoff's and too good to get a top draft slot.

It's time for a new era. Break it up and start over. We have a new GM and a young staff that would prefer to teach.


I wish it wasn't true, but you are spot on. It's going to be long and painful process, but not as long as this September was.

Tragg
10-01-2012, 11:32 PM
I'm tired of using band aids to close huge gashes. It's time to tear it down IMO. The core isn't good. PK's old and had a bad second half. AJ's old, can't call a game any more and is more suited to DH. Signing a 36 year old catcher after a career year is about as dumb a move as a team can make. Beckham's a disappointment. We're losing our number 2 starter and he's not that great anyway.

We've got Sale and Danks signed for long term. That gives us a pitching core, which will keep us from being terrible. No use trading Viciedo (if he could just learn the strike zone), or Beckham (low value right now). The rest, we could trade.

russ99
10-01-2012, 11:40 PM
My take:

C: Less expensive experienced FA catcher platooning with Flowers. If A.J. takes a pay cut, it could be him
1B: Konerko
2B: Time to cut bait on Beckham, deal him for something decent. Try to acquire a leadoff hitter here and move De Aza to 2nd spot where he profiles better and where a pure hitter is needed
SS: Ramirez
3B: give Morel another shot, bat 9th, add a good hitter for the bench who can backup at 3B
LF: trade Viciedo (IMO Boras is going to want $6-7M in arb) for prospects, add young good hitter with good eye at the plate who can improve into a quality corner outfielder
CF: De Aza
RF: Rios
DH: a Kenny-special inexpensive retread after Dunn is dealt for an inning eater starter with a similarly bad contract. Tori Hunter??

bench:
C: Flowers
IF: experienced platoon 3B who can step in for Morel
IF: someone who can backup SS and at least put up a decent AB
OF: decent bench power hitter
OF: decent bench average hitter


SP: Sale
SP: Danks
SP: Quintana
SP: inning eater in Dunn trade
SP: Humber/minor leaguer pushing for a spot in spring

CL: Reed
SU: Santiago
SU: Crain
MR: Veal
MR: Jones
LR: ?

Decline Thornton's and Floyd's options

TaylorStSox
10-01-2012, 11:43 PM
We've got Sale and Danks signed for long term. That gives us a pitching core, which will keep us from being terrible. No use trading Viciedo (if he could just learn the strike zone), or Beckham (low value right now). The rest, we could trade.
I agree with that. The pitching, even in a rebuilding year, will be solid. Also, the drop off from dumping PK and AJ won't be as big as most people realize. Despite PK's great start, he's had a very pedestrian year. Flowers can match AJ's OBP and hit for power. He's much better defensively and I prefer the way he calls a game. Replacing Rios with one of Walker or Thompson might not be that huge of a drop off. Less hits, more K's, similar power, OBP and steals with excellent defense. I expect Dayan to take a step forward and Ramirez to have a slightly better year. Even in a rebuilding year, the situation isn't dire.

The farm is better than most will admit. There's little depth, but a few potential stars.

DSpivack
10-01-2012, 11:49 PM
I agree with that. The pitching, even in a rebuilding year, will be solid. Also, the drop off from dumping PK and AJ won't be as big as most people realize. Despite PK's great start, he's had a very pedestrian year. Flowers can match AJ's OBP and hit for power. He's much better defensively and I prefer the way he calls a game. Replacing Rios with one of Walker or Thompson might not be that huge of a drop off. Less hits, more K's, similar power, OBP and steals with excellent defense. I expect Dayan to take a step forward and Ramirez to have a slightly better year. Even in a rebuilding year, the situation isn't dire.

The farm is better than most will admit. There's little depth, but a few potential stars.

What makes you think he is capable of that?

And an unproven rookie in place of Rios? And you think their performance can almost match his?

doublem23
10-01-2012, 11:51 PM
My sentiments exactly. The "core" is aging and not going to be any better next year than they were this year. It's time for a new direction and that will mean many "white flag" trades this winter, but we should have swallowed the pill and done this a couple years ago IMO.

Can't wait to see 10,000 people at the Cell a night

Tragg
10-01-2012, 11:53 PM
The farm is better than most will admit. There's little depth, but a few potential stars.
Who?
I'm okay with trading veterans, but not just for the sake of trading them, which I got the feeling happened last year in a few of these trades.

voodoochile
10-01-2012, 11:55 PM
Let's see...

Argument one: There's no help in the minor leagues because ours suck.

Argument two: Our team is old and getting older with holes.

Therefore: Tear it down... :scratch:

And do what? Suck for 5 years and let JR and his boys pocket all the money? Do you think they are going to sock it away into some account for "future spending"?

Sox can easily afford 90M a year salary just based on MLB revenue, gate and local revenue. They might be able to afford $110 pretty easy.

No reason to wait and hope and cry... You got Danks, Floyd, Sale, Quintana all returning. You've got Santiago, Jones, Reed and Veal.

It's not going to take that much to keep this window open another year or two which you might as well do since they've got the money to spend, sunk costs and at least some middle of the order bats as well as a solid defense.

I know people disagree with me, but I'm going to put this out there, one more time. If you argue for total rebuild, give more details. Don't just say, tear it down. What's the plan? 2-years? 5 years? What parts do you want to build around? What parts do you want to acquire and how are you going to acquire them?

Dazzle me. I'm ready to have my mind changed, but I cannot endorse an open ended empty lot of platitudes...

doublem23
10-01-2012, 11:56 PM
I agree with that. The pitching, even in a rebuilding year, will be solid. Also, the drop off from dumping PK and AJ won't be as big as most people realize. Despite PK's great start, he's had a very pedestrian year. Flowers can match AJ's OBP and hit for power. He's much better defensively and I prefer the way he calls a game. Replacing Rios with one of Walker or Thompson might not be that huge of a drop off. Less hits, more K's, similar power, OBP and steals with excellent defense. I expect Dayan to take a step forward and Ramirez to have a slightly better year. Even in a rebuilding year, the situation isn't dire.

The farm is better than most will admit. There's little depth, but a few potential stars.

Ha ha, step off the ledge a bit, dude. You dump Konerko, Rios, and AJ from this team and we're looking at 60-something wins. Sox had a Top 3 offense in the AL for most of this season.

doublem23
10-01-2012, 11:59 PM
I know people disagree with me, but I'm going to put this out there, one more time. If you argue for total rebuild, give more details. Don't just say, tear it down. What's the plan? 2-years? 5 years? What parts do you want to build around? What parts do you want to acquire and how are you going to acquire them?

Dazzle me. I'm ready to have my mind changed, but I cannot endorse an open ended empty lot of platitudes...

They have no real plan, it's just people being angry and ranting about nonsense. Replacing Rios with Walker or Thompson? This is borderline insanity.

Sox are still, after the full 162-game schedule plays out, going to win mid-80-something games. This is not a team that needs a major rebuild. More than anything else, what this team needs is some key contributors who can spell guys regularly, keep the older guys fresh, and not force Ventura to have to play his everyday lineup 5-6 times per week, as he was for most of the 1st half. This team needs DEPTH at the Major League level.

TaylorStSox
10-01-2012, 11:59 PM
What makes you think he is capable of that?

And an unproven rookie in place of Rios? And you think their performance can almost match his?

AJ doesn't have a great OBP. Flowers has a good eye and good power. I think he can make up for the lack of contact with patience. The improvement defensively and in pitch calling will also help. Honestly, I don't want AJ calling pitches to a young staff on a rebuilding team. He's a hot head. I don't want him showing up young pitchers.

Bringing Thompson up would definitely be rushing him and a drop off from Rios, but I prefer to shed payroll.

Obviously, I'm talking about rebuilding. I don't see this team competing with returning the aging players and adding a couple FA's.

TaylorStSox
10-02-2012, 12:01 AM
Who?
I'm okay with trading veterans, but not just for the sake of trading them, which I got the feeling happened last year in a few of these trades.

Thompson, Walker, Barnum, Mitchell and Hawkins are all potential stars.

TaylorStSox
10-02-2012, 12:03 AM
They have no real plan, it's just people being angry and ranting about nonsense. Replacing Rios with Walker or Thompson? This is borderline insanity.

Sox are still, after the full 162-game schedule plays out, going to win mid-80-something games. This is not a team that needs a major rebuild. More than anything else, what this team needs is some key contributors who can spell guys regularly, keep the older guys fresh, and not force Ventura to have to play his everyday lineup 5-6 times per week, as he was for most of the 1st half. This team needs DEPTH at the Major League level.

Konerko is done. AJ will never repeat this year and Rios may also be having a career year. They're older next year and I expect regression from all 3. Go ahead and keep them, finish with 85 wins again and we're in the same place next year.

DSpivack
10-02-2012, 12:05 AM
AJ doesn't have a great OBP. Flowers has a good eye and good power. I think he can make up for the lack of contact with patience. The improvement defensively and in pitch calling will also help. Honestly, I don't want AJ calling pitches to a young staff on a rebuilding team. He's a hot head. I don't want him showing up young pitchers.

Bringing Thompson up would definitely be rushing him and a drop off from Rios, but I prefer to shed payroll.

Obviously, I'm talking about rebuilding. I don't see this team competing with returning the aging players and adding a couple FA's.

Flowers is a career .207/.308/.393 hitter.

With a team that struggles with attracting customers, you want to break up a veteran core that has won some 80-odd games, and tell your customers the product will be **** for several years? What is the obsession with shedding payroll? Why the **** is that important? I want wins. And so do most fans.

MUsoxfan
10-02-2012, 12:05 AM
3B: give Morel another shot

You lost me there. He's the definition of atrocious

TaylorStSox
10-02-2012, 12:08 AM
Flowers is a career .207/.308/.393 hitter.

With a team that struggles with attracting customers, you want to break up a veteran core that has won some 80-odd games, and tell your customers the product will be **** for several years? What is the obsession with shedding payroll? Why the **** is that important? I want wins. And so do most fans.
Nobody's going to games anyway. It's obviously not just about wins. This team is stale.

In a career year, AJ's OPS is .750 with bad pitch calling and worse defense.

doublem23
10-02-2012, 12:08 AM
Konerko is done. AJ will never repeat this year and Rios may also be having a career year. They're older next year and I expect regression from all 3. Go ahead and keep them, finish with 85 wins again and we're in the same place next year.

Konerko may or may not be done. With one year left on his contract, I'm willing to find out for sure. AJ may be gone, which would be OK with me. I agree that someone will likely overpay for him, unless he is willing to give the Sox a deep, deep hometown discount. Rios has always been an enigma, but you've got to be completely out of your mind if you think Keenyn Walker or Trayce Thompson or even Jared Mitchell are ready to play RF in the Majors everyday. It's absurd.

I'll take the aging core that can be likely counted on for 85 wins and see if I can find 5-10 more wins by bringing in a few key guys that give the team some roster flexibility and help keep the vets fresh. It's a much more desirable plan to me than blowing the team up with absolutely no blueprint and stumbling to a 62-100 season. You'd think someone living in Chicago, watching the Cubs would have some sense as to how horrible that is.

DSpivack
10-02-2012, 12:09 AM
Nobody's going to games anyway. It's obviously not just about wins. This team is stale.

The Sox drew 1.8 million fans this season. You up for a contest to see how low the season ticket base can get? Or whether that overall number can get down to 1 million?

MUsoxfan
10-02-2012, 12:11 AM
The Sox drew 1.8 million fans this season. You up for a contest to see how low the season ticket base can get? Or whether that overall number can get down to 1 million?


Agreed. This team doesn't sell itself, and the people that do sell it do as bad of a job as any marketing team in baseball.

TaylorStSox
10-02-2012, 12:14 AM
Konerko may or may not be done. With one year left on his contract, I'm willing to find out for sure. AJ may be gone, which would be OK with me. I agree that someone will likely overpay for him, unless he is willing to give the Sox a deep, deep hometown discount. Rios has always been an enigma, but you've got to be completely out of your mind if you think Keenyn Walker or Trayce Thompson or even Jared Mitchell are ready to play RF in the Majors everyday. It's absurd.

I'll take the aging core that can be likely counted on for 85 wins and see if I can find 5-10 more wins by bringing in a few key guys that give the team some roster flexibility and help keep the vets fresh. It's a much more desirable plan to me than blowing the team up with absolutely no blueprint and stumbling to a 62-100 season. You'd think someone living in Chicago, watching the Cubs would have some sense as to how horrible that is.

I don't believe this is the case. I don't think the core can give you 85 wins next year, I just don't.

Thompson or Walker would take over CF with De Aza moving to LF, where he's much better, and Dayan in RF. I don't really think they're ready either. I'd be fine with keeping Rios (he is my second favorite player on the team), but I'd prefer to shed more payroll.

voodoochile
10-02-2012, 12:15 AM
The Sox drew 1.8 million fans this season. You up for a contest to see how low the season ticket base can get? Or whether that overall number can get down to 1 million?

It never went below 1.3M even in 97-98 I'll take that bet.

In addition, missing from all this stunning analysis about the Sox drawing power woes is the fact the economy is in the worst 6 year run since the 1930's.

delben91
10-02-2012, 12:16 AM
I'm going to go all crazy here and take the glass half-full approach, but looking just at the players on the roster signed through next season...

Rotation: Sale, Quintana, Danks, Floyd, Santiago/Axelrod? - Not bad at all. Will it light the world on fire? No, but you're basically trading Peavy for Danks and Humber/Liriano for Santiago/Axelrod. Not quite a push but not a dramatic drop off either.

Bullpen: Reed, Jones, Veal, Ommogrosso, ??? - Some valuable pieces there, with the 5th starter loser being the long man. Some holes to be sure, but there's talent there.

Lineup:
C - ??? I could see AJ coming back on a 2 year deal
1B - Konerko, with a healed wrist
2B - Beckham, what you see is what you get offensively, top notch defensively
SS - Ramirez, see 2B, but more potent offensively
3B - ??
RF - Rios, can he put two solid seasons together in a row?
CF - De Aza, excellent potential and quintessential leadoff man, can he stay healthy?
LF - Viciedo, better with a full pro season under his belt
DH - Dunn, I'm one that takes the power #s at the expense of batting average and strikeouts, but I know not everyone has that opinion

In short though, I think improvements with experience for those in bold above aren't out of the question. Which at least tells me we aren't seeing 100 loss teams on the horizon. The real issue is can the brass fill in the gaps with quality players to move them from a .500-ish team to a 90+ win team?

But no, I don't think a complete overhaul is needed, though I seem to be in the minority.

delben91
10-02-2012, 12:18 AM
I'm tired of using band aids to close huge gashes. It's time to tear it down IMO. The core isn't good. PK's old and had a bad second half. AJ's old, can't call a game any more and is more suited to DH. Signing a 36 year old catcher after a career year is about as dumb a move as a team can make. Beckham's a disappointment. We're losing our number 2 starter and he's not that great anyway.

The FA market isn't good to begin with. Even if we had a ton of money to spend, we aren't an attractive destination right now. Even if we did attract a couple guys, it won't be enough to win big. We'll be back to being not quite good enough to get to the playoff's and too good to get a top draft slot.

It's time for a new era. Break it up and start over. We have a new GM and a young staff that would prefer to teach.

But if we dump PK and Rios you propose trading them for absolutely no one? I don't see how you can trade those two and maybe even Dunn and expect no players at all in return, but your proposed lineup doesn't show any...

voodoochile
10-02-2012, 12:19 AM
AJ doesn't have a great OBP. Flowers has a good eye and good power. I think he can make up for the lack of contact with patience. The improvement defensively and in pitch calling will also help. Honestly, I don't want AJ calling pitches to a young staff on a rebuilding team. He's a hot head. I don't want him showing up young pitchers.

Bringing Thompson up would definitely be rushing him and a drop off from Rios, but I prefer to shed payroll.

Obviously, I'm talking about rebuilding. I don't see this team competing with returning the aging players and adding a couple FA's.

Yeah, that's the ticket, throw another unprepared minor leaguer to the wolves so the board can pocket millions...

:reinsy
"I like the way you think, Taylor."

For ****s sake aren't you "tear it all down" people the same ones constantly screaming about the Sox rushing prospects?

Someone post that huge eye rolling smilie puking up eye rolling smilies it's the only way to express my feelings on this matter and I don't have the link...

delben91
10-02-2012, 12:20 AM
You lost me there. He's the definition of atrocious

Also played with a back injury this year that seemingly took months and several false starts to heal. I don't think the Sox should make him the one and only plan, but I don't think giving him a shot to make the team out of spring training should be out of the question either.

DSpivack
10-02-2012, 12:21 AM
It never went below 1.3M even in 97-98 I'll take that bet.

In addition, missing from all this stunning analysis about the Sox drawing power woes is the fact the economy is in the worst 6 year run since the 1930's.

True, but are Sox fans worse off compared to other fan bases? And how does the drop in attendance for the White Sox compare to other teams in the last 6 years?

TaylorStSox
10-02-2012, 12:27 AM
Fans didn't get behind this team in a pennant race because they aren't likable. They don't have an identity. They don't have stars. That's partly because the marketing staff is awful and partly because the aging core is stale.

doublem23
10-02-2012, 12:27 AM
True, but are Sox fans worse off compared to other fan bases? And how does the drop in attendance for the White Sox compare to other teams in the last 6 years?

And, this is always the question that doesn't get answered, HOW MUCH MONEY do the Sox make compared to other teams at the gate? Sure, we're in the bottom 3rd of butts in seats, but with the price of tickets, etc. we have to be in the top 1/2 if not 1/3 of money brought in.

People seem to treat the Sox management like they're a bunch of dopes that have no idea what they're doing, but I'm telling, you this is their plan now, they set the tickets to what they figure will get them around 25 K every night (about 50-60% of the park) in most years and they make their cash that way and then, if the team really puts it together, they're in line for a HUGE payday. Look, if the Sox are filling the park up 100%, then there's nowhere to go, right? If you're making money with 1/2 the stadium filled, why not do it?

voodoochile
10-02-2012, 12:27 AM
True, but are Sox fans worse off compared to other fan bases? And how does the drop in attendance for the White Sox compare to other teams in the last 6 years?

Sox are coming off their best run of attendance in team history in those 6 years, so some dropoff is inevitable unless they manage to turn into the Yankees. In addition, there was ZERO hype about this team last winter. The only moves they made was to lose a once popular manager and probably the most beloved pitcher in team history.

I honestly don't know where attendance is nationally. I assume it's down as a rule except in areas that are immune from this kind of stuff and where teams are on a good role.

In addition the Sox actually drew 1.97M this year. Just FYI...

http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/sort/homeTotal

voodoochile
10-02-2012, 12:28 AM
Fans didn't get behind this team in a pennant race because they aren't likable. They don't have an identity. They don't have stars. That's partly because the marketing staff is awful and partly because the aging core is stale.

What's your qualifications for making this statement?

voodoochile
10-02-2012, 12:31 AM
And, this is always the question that doesn't get answered, HOW MUCH MONEY do the Sox make compared to other teams at the gate? Sure, we're in the bottom 3rd of butts in seats, but with the price of tickets, etc. we have to be in the top 1/2 if not 1/3 of money brought in.

People seem to treat the Sox management like they're a bunch of dopes that have no idea what they're doing, but I'm telling, you this is their plan now, they set the tickets to what they figure will get them around 25 K every night (about 50-60% of the park) in most years and they make their cash that way and then, if the team really puts it together, they're in line for a HUGE payday. Look, if the Sox are filling the park up 100%, then there's nowhere to go, right? If you're making money with 1/2 the stadium filled, why not do it?

In 2010 the Sox grossed $214M according to this site: http://www.statista.com/statistics/193645/revenue-of-major-league-baseball-teams-in-2010/

That was 12th even though they were 17th in attendance.

I do think it might be time to evaluate seat prices given the state of the economy, but it's a business, and if they think they are maximizing profits this way it's their call...

MUsoxfan
10-02-2012, 12:33 AM
Look, if the Sox are filling the park up 100%, then there's nowhere to go, right? If you're making money with 1/2 the stadium filled, why not do it?

That's fine if they weren't bitching their fans out for not paying out the nose

TaylorStSox
10-02-2012, 12:35 AM
What's your qualifications for making this statement?
Lack of attendance in a playoff race. Lack of coverage and a general lack of buzz. There's no way for me to prove "buzz," but I can tell you that there was none. In the past, when the team's doing well, you can tell just walking around the streets of the city. There's some excitement. You see Sox hats everywhere in the loop. People talk about the team. This year, there was none of that. Obviously my observations are anecdotal, but believe me, there was no buzz. The product is stale. The broadcast is stale. The organization needs a shot in the arm. IMO, a youth movement along with re-branding the image is a good place to start.

Lip Man 1
10-02-2012, 12:39 AM
I agree with those who say the offense needs work. At times it produced but other times, like in late June / early July and of course the final weeks of the season it went right down the toilet.

The were among the best at RISP for the year (until the pressure was really turned on) they scored consistently according to the number of runs per game yet were still shut out 11 times and (so far) have had 66 games where they scored three runs or less (41% and change for the season).

The question is though, and it's a big one for Hahn, how can you get two or three guys who hit say .280 with power into your lineup?

Miguel Cabrera's aren't available every day are there? (looking back you wonder if Kenny doesn't regret not completing the deal for Miggy because the Sox wouldn't pick up the tab for Wills...another 'what if' for the club)

Lip

LoveYourSuit
10-02-2012, 12:42 AM
In 2010 the Sox grossed $214M according to this site: http://www.statista.com/statistics/193645/revenue-of-major-league-baseball-teams-in-2010/

That was 12th even though they were 17th in attendance.

I do think it might be time to evaluate seat prices given the state of the economy, but it's a business, and if they think they are maximizing profits this way it's their call...


And this is why they continue to have a very mediocre product.

doublem23
10-02-2012, 12:45 AM
Miguel Cabrera's aren't available every day are there? (looking back you wonder if Kenny doesn't regret not completing the deal for Miggy because the Sox wouldn't pick up the tab for Wills...another 'what if' for the club)


Wait, wait, wait... There's no way anyone can actually believe the Marlins would have traded Cabrera to the Sox over the Tigers, right? Detroit gave up 2 Baseball America Top 10 prospects in Maybin and Miller (not just Tigers' Top 10... All of baseball Top 10) for Cabrera in addition to eating Dontrelle's contract. If the Sox had ever been rumored to be real players in those trade talks, it was obviously just a ruse by Florida to earn more leverage over the Tigers and force them to give up their two most coveted prospects and eat $40 M of Willis over 3 seasons. Should be clear by now that whatever offer the Sox may have had was never seriously considered.

LoveYourSuit
10-02-2012, 12:45 AM
That's fine if they weren't bitching their fans out for not paying out the nose


And holding fans accountable for what the future payroll is.

DSpivack
10-02-2012, 12:55 AM
And, this is always the question that doesn't get answered, HOW MUCH MONEY do the Sox make compared to other teams at the gate? Sure, we're in the bottom 3rd of butts in seats, but with the price of tickets, etc. we have to be in the top 1/2 if not 1/3 of money brought in.

People seem to treat the Sox management like they're a bunch of dopes that have no idea what they're doing, but I'm telling, you this is their plan now, they set the tickets to what they figure will get them around 25 K every night (about 50-60% of the park) in most years and they make their cash that way and then, if the team really puts it together, they're in line for a HUGE payday. Look, if the Sox are filling the park up 100%, then there's nowhere to go, right? If you're making money with 1/2 the stadium filled, why not do it?

This is a great point and I do suspect you are exactly right. I've thought the same for awhile in regards to why prices are the way they are. It seems to me that the ownership might be great at running the franchise as a business in terms of maximizing revenue and making sure the team stays afloat for the long term, but...

Lack of attendance in a playoff race. Lack of coverage and a general lack of buzz. There's no way for me to prove "buzz," but I can tell you that there was none. In the past, when the team's doing well, you can tell just walking around the streets of the city. There's some excitement. You see Sox hats everywhere in the loop. People talk about the team. This year, there was none of that. Obviously my observations are anecdotal, but believe me, there was no buzz. The product is stale. The broadcast is stale. The organization needs a shot in the arm. IMO, a youth movement along with re-branding the image is a good place to start.

...in terms of how they run the business when it comes marketing that business and selling it, it seems they do a terrible job at it. That marketing I think has definitely become stale. If the problem is they can't sell their players to the public, the answer isn't to change the players; change the players only if that is the best plan for improving the play on the field. If they can't sell that product, then they have to change their way of selling it.

TDog
10-02-2012, 01:13 AM
We all saw this year that unless 4 or 5 guys have career years this team is good for 80-85 wins. The Tigers are gonna keep throwing $ around until they win a WS so I have a feeling a division title is a ways away.

An overhaul is needed, but god damn, is it gonna suck.

You really don't know if a player is having a career year until his career is over. The Tigers may well have had career years from Cabrera and Fielder (and maybe even Berry), and they aren't going to win 90 games this year.

After the 1982 season, Jimmy Piersall went on a rant about how the Sox, who finished six games back in the West, weren't close and outlined the things they needed to do to contend, and really, how could they, faced with the loss of Kemp. The Sox did none of them, but they did win the West by 20 games in 1983. If the Sox had won one more of the winnable games on the homestand and hadn't blown a late 6-0 lead to the Tigers on an afternoon in May, if the Royals commit four errors instead of five in a game on the Tigers last homestand, the White Sox would be in first place right now.

Since the Sox beat the Tigers in the makeup game, the Sox have appeared dead, until tonight, at least. Poor pitching. Worse hitting. The team looked spent. Even Sale didn't approach being a good pitcher in his last start. I can't attribute a majority of it to pressure because it happened after the Sox came from behind to beat the Tigers in the makeup game. It was a long season for the less experienced major leaguers, and even Peavy didn't step up at the end. It's been a long season for Pierzynski because catching is such a demanding position and he probably would have benefited from having a backup give him some more days off. It's been a long season for Konerko, who came back from being hit in the face to play through the problem with his hand and come back from a concussion.

Whether it was a curse, a coincidence or insight to honor the 1972 team to the extent that they wore the 1972 home uniforms on Sundays, this team competitively was not unlike the 1972 team, although that team faded earlier in their season, going up the A's in their dynasty years. The 2012 team should get the same respect from fans.

As for the future, I don't know that an overhaul is warranted. I certainly wouldn't like the sort of overhaul that some fans would demand.

I have read that Peavy's option won't be picked up. The way he pitched later in the season, the way he blew up in that May loss at home to the Tigers for that matter, I think his elite contract days are over and belive he will be playing for less next year, wherever that may be. I expect Sale to be stronger in the future, and Danks should be returning to the rotation. I don't know if the Sox are going to pursue any free agent starters, but of late, the starting rotation has always been a priority for White Sox management.

With relievers, you really don't know what you have from year to year. The strong rookies this year may not be able to get hitters out in the future. But Jones and Reed look like they could be very good pitchers. So does Santiago, whose season started as the closer and closed as a starter.

I never really liked this team offensively. It isn't that I don't like home runs. But I don't like home runs to the exclusion of consistent hitting. When your No. 3 hitter is hitting less than .210, it really doesn't matter that he has more than 40 home runs because his failures are hurting you more than his successes are helping you. I would like to see that Sox trade Dunn in the offseaon, but that isn't going to happen. I don't believe he is the sort of hitter that can anchor a solid offense.

Coming into this season, I though the Sox had enough pitching and defense and would find enough offense to compete with the Tigers with all of their offense. I was right in that regard, at least for all but the last two weeks of the season. If in the offseason, they firm up the starting rotation and assemble an able bullpen, if they find some more line drives and fewer strikeouts in their offense, I think they might be able to compete in the Central again next year.

Some changes are inevitable. Some will be out of the team's control. I don't know what the Sox are going to do with their pitcher, let alone third base or even catcher next year. But I don't believe this team needs to be overhauled.

Frater Perdurabo
10-02-2012, 07:23 AM
There are so many permutations of what KW/Hahn could do this offseason, so I'm just going to wait and see. But these are just a few suggestions:

Our pitchers need to give up fewer walks.

Continue taking infield practice regularly.

Work with DeAza, Beckham, and Alexei on their hitting approaches - including bunting for hits - as well as their base running.

Dan H
10-02-2012, 07:37 AM
Sox are coming off their best run of attendance in team history in those 6 years, so some dropoff is inevitable unless they manage to turn into the Yankees. In addition, there was ZERO hype about this team last winter. The only moves they made was to lose a once popular manager and probably the most beloved pitcher in team history.

I honestly don't know where attendance is nationally. I assume it's down as a rule except in areas that are immune from this kind of stuff and where teams are on a good role.

In addition the Sox actually drew 1.97M this year. Just FYI...

http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/sort/homeTotal

I agree with all these points. Not to mention that 2011 was a deflating year where expensive players didn't perform.

I wish attendance was better. I also wish for a team that doesn't do an el foldo act in September.

wassagstdu
10-02-2012, 07:55 AM
A .500 team where nobody has any trade value and a dust bowl on the farm. Thanks, KW!

Edit: I take it back. I'll bet the Yankees would take Sale for Nick Swisher.

SCCWS
10-02-2012, 08:16 AM
Please. Find me another team in baseball that has two 23-year-old starters on its roster that combined to throw 328.1 IP this year with an combined 3.34 ERA.

I know, I know, KW should have bluechip prospects at all 25 roster spots, otherwise he's a ****ing failure, but it seems like that's a distinction many teams will be hard pressed to meet.

At 23, I think it is fair to assume they also ran out of gas as the year went on. But just like the huge drop-off so many of the veterans had during the second half, so did Sale/Quintana. Their combined ERA was 4.50 after the All Star game. Also both gave up a lot of home runs 2nd half. Still, they are a nice combo to start rebuilding and certainly Sale has the potential to be this team's number 1 starter for years to come.

Chez
10-02-2012, 08:46 AM
Lots of good points raised in this threads -- and lots of crazy ideas. I think one point that hasn't been raised is that in some ways, the 2012 Sox were victimized by their early success. Had the Sox performed to most people's (including mine) low pre-season expectations, you may have seen players like A.J., Peavy, Thornton & Crain moved before the July 31 trade deadline in exchange for prospects and the major roster overhaul many are advocating would have been underway.

I'm glad this didn't happen. Until the last two weeks, this was a thoroughly enjoyable season. However, the Sox relative success up to mid-September may have a negative impact on 2013.

Golden Sox
10-02-2012, 09:15 AM
I would not be surprised to see both Mark Buehrle and Bobby Jenks back on the White Sox in 2013. I'm under the impression Buehrle will definitely be moved from the Marlins. Now that Peavy won't be on the team the White Sox will probably use that money to bring back Buehrle. Jenks is a free agent and if he's healthy enough to pitch it wouldn't shock me to see him back with the White Sox. If Jenks is on the team Nate Jones could be moved into the starting rotation.

The Immigrant
10-02-2012, 09:40 AM
I would not be surprised to see both Mark Buehrle and Bobby Jenks back on the White Sox in 2013. I'm under the impression Buehrle will definitely be moved from the Marlins. Now that Peavy won't be on the team the White Sox will probably use that money to bring back Buehrle. Jenks is a free agent and if he's healthy enough to pitch it wouldn't shock me to see him back with the White Sox. If Jenks is on the team Nate Jones could be moved into the starting rotation.

As long as we're putting the band back together, any chance we get Carl Everett and Pablo Ozuna to shore up the bench for next year?

doublem23
10-02-2012, 09:45 AM
I would not be surprised to see both Mark Buehrle and Bobby Jenks back on the White Sox in 2013. I'm under the impression Buehrle will definitely be moved from the Marlins. Now that Peavy won't be on the team the White Sox will probably use that money to bring back Buehrle. Jenks is a free agent and if he's healthy enough to pitch it wouldn't shock me to see him back with the White Sox. If Jenks is on the team Nate Jones could be moved into the starting rotation.

I would be willing to bet just about anything that none of that happens

As long as we're putting the band back together, any chance we get Carl Everett and Pablo Ozuna to shore up the bench for next year?

Maybe we can get Ozzie back, too? Not all that convinced he's going to be employed by this time next week.

Chez
10-02-2012, 09:45 AM
As long as we're putting the band back together, any chance we get Carl Everett and Pablo Ozuna to shore up the bench for next year?

Aaron Rowand!

DeadMoney
10-02-2012, 09:55 AM
Aaron Rowand!

I don't know if teal is really necessary on that one as I'm convinced he might be a front-runner to replace Stone.

TheOldRoman
10-02-2012, 10:13 AM
Wait, wait, wait... There's no way anyone can actually believe the Marlins would have traded Cabrera to the Sox over the Tigers, right? Detroit gave up 2 Baseball America Top 10 prospects in Maybin and Miller (not just Tigers' Top 10... All of baseball Top 10) for Cabrera in addition to eating Dontrelle's contract. If the Sox had ever been rumored to be real players in those trade talks, it was obviously just a ruse by Florida to earn more leverage over the Tigers and force them to give up their two most coveted prospects and eat $40 M of Willis over 3 seasons. Should be clear by now that whatever offer the Sox may have had was never seriously considered.Yes and no. The Marlins wanted to unload Willis' contract, but the Tigers did their drunken sailor routine and signed him to a 3 year/$29 million extension after trading for him.

soltrain21
10-02-2012, 10:24 AM
I would not be surprised to see both Mark Buehrle and Bobby Jenks back on the White Sox in 2013. I'm under the impression Buehrle will definitely be moved from the Marlins. Now that Peavy won't be on the team the White Sox will probably use that money to bring back Buehrle. Jenks is a free agent and if he's healthy enough to pitch it wouldn't shock me to see him back with the White Sox. If Jenks is on the team Nate Jones could be moved into the starting rotation.

Better pick up Dustin Hermanson, too.

SOXSINCE'70
10-02-2012, 10:46 AM
As long as we're putting the band back together, any chance we get Carl Everett and Pablo Ozuna to shore up the bench for next year?

:pods::anderson::dye::pollite::jon:iguchi::garcia: :weewillie:elduque::rowand

"We also need jobs!":D:

SOXSINCE'70
10-02-2012, 10:49 AM
:ozzie

"Fung is winning,and winning is fung."

voodoochile
10-02-2012, 10:51 AM
At 23, I think it is fair to assume they also ran out of gas as the year went on. But just like the huge drop-off so many of the veterans had during the second half, so did Sale/Quintana. Their combined ERA was 4.50 after the All Star game. Also both gave up a lot of home runs 2nd half. Still, they are a nice combo to start rebuilding and certainly Sale has the potential to be this team's number 1 starter for years to come.

The ending season stretch was brutal for everyone. With banged up veterans and kids ending their first or second season. One day off in the last 6 weeks hurt this team bad and having to play a night game in KC and fly to LA that same night to play the next evening toward the end of it didn't help.

Sox went into a funk at the wrong time of the year that's why they are going to be watching from home, but the schedule did them no favors at all this year.

kittle42
10-02-2012, 10:52 AM
Can't wait to see 10,000 people at the Cell a night

Not much off from the 18,000 we'll get with a decent team.

Also, let's not forger the small impact the red line construction will have on early-season attendance.

Might have some sub-10k crowds.

kittle42
10-02-2012, 10:59 AM
In addition, missing from all this stunning analysis about the Sox drawing power woes is the fact the economy is in the worst 6 year run since the 1930's.

That affects every team.

voodoochile
10-02-2012, 11:00 AM
Not much off from the 18,000 we'll get with a decent team.

Also, let's not forger the small impact the red line construction will have on early-season attendance.

Might have some sub-10k crowds.

640K fans over the course of a season isn't that much? Isn't that ~$24M gross revenue before counting parking?

Remind me not to let you anywhere any business I ever own...:tongue:

kittle42
10-02-2012, 11:04 AM
A .500 team where nobody has any trade value and a dust bowl on the farm. Thanks, KW!

This is *exactly* what I feared before the season started - the result we have right now.

That is not to say that I would rather the team have tanked 2012, traded Peavy and AJ when they had a chance, and never had any "excitement," this year. But if you ask me next year or in a few years whether I would rather they had done that, I'd objectively say yes.

October26
10-02-2012, 11:05 AM
There are so many permutations of what KW/Hahn could do this offseason, so I'm just going to wait and see. But these are just a few suggestions: Our pitchers need to give up fewer walks. Continue taking infield practice regularly. Work with DeAza, Beckham, and Alexei on their hitting approaches - including bunting for hits - as well as their base running.

I would add that I would also like to see Manto work with Viciedo on his hitting approach. Next to his parents, I am sure that I am Dayan Viciedo’s Number 1 fan on the Planet, but as the season progressed, I was annoyed with Viciedo’s approach at the plate. Tank was swinging at everything and had no patience or discipline whatsoever.

I kept yelling at my TV when he was at bat (or at him when I was at the games):

Paciencia!
Paciencia!
Paciencia!

I guess he didn’t hear me, because the louder I yelled, the worse he looked. Overall, Viciedo had a good season but he needs to learn the strike zone and gain some discipline at the plate.

kittle42
10-02-2012, 11:07 AM
I would not be surprised to see both Mark Buehrle and Bobby Jenks back on the White Sox in 2013. I'm under the impression Buehrle will definitely be moved from the Marlins. Now that Peavy won't be on the team the White Sox will probably use that money to bring back Buehrle. Jenks is a free agent and if he's healthy enough to pitch it wouldn't shock me to see him back with the White Sox. If Jenks is on the team Nate Jones could be moved into the starting rotation.

And I see we're starting with the more ludicrous of the offseason ideas before the season even ends. :tongue:

kittle42
10-02-2012, 11:09 AM
640K fans over the course of a season isn't that much? Isn't that ~$24M gross revenue before counting parking?

Remind me not to let you anywhere any business I ever own...:tongue:

I realized that as I was typing it, that it doesn't work that way, and that it's just perception on my end.

SaltyPretzel
10-02-2012, 11:12 AM
I would add that I would also like to see Manto work with Viciedo on his hitting approach. Next his parents, I am sure that I am Dayan Viciedo’s Number 1 fan on the Planet, but as the season progressed, I was annoyed with Viciedo’s approach at the plate. Tank was swinging at everything and had no patience or discipline whatsoever.

I kept yelling at my TV when he was at bat (or at him when I was at the games):

Paciencia!
Paciencia!
Paciencia!

I guess he didn’t hear me, because the louder I yelled, the worse he looked. Overall, Viciedo had a good season but he needs to learn the strike zone and gain some discipline at the plate.

What does his mom and dad have to do with anything? :wink:

SOXSINCE'70
10-02-2012, 11:16 AM
Better pick up Dustin Hermanson, too.

Why?? Did he fall down??:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

October26
10-02-2012, 11:16 AM
What does his mom and dad have to do with anything? :wink:

Thanks for correcting me. I meant to say, Next to his parents... or perhaps I meant to say, Besides his parents...this is what happens when you type fast. :D:

TaylorStSox
10-02-2012, 11:28 AM
I would add that I would also like to see Manto work with Viciedo on his hitting approach. Next to his parents, I am sure that I am Dayan Viciedo’s Number 1 fan on the Planet, but as the season progressed, I was annoyed with Viciedo’s approach at the plate. Tank was swinging at everything and had no patience or discipline whatsoever.

I kept yelling at my TV when he was at bat (or at him when I was at the games):

Paciencia!
Paciencia!
Paciencia!

I guess he didn’t hear me, because the louder I yelled, the worse he looked. Overall, Viciedo had a good season but he needs to learn the strike zone and gain some discipline at the plate.
He's corrected that on every level. He has Vlad Syndrome. He thinks he can hit everything because he has unreal plate coverage. It's not the smart approach though.

WhiffleBall
10-02-2012, 11:49 AM
Next year should be interesting. The Tigers get Victor Martinez back and will have even more money to spend if they make a deep post season run. One good thing about the Tigers winning the WS is that maybe Ilitch will be satisfied and stop pouring so much money into the team. Who knows, KC may finally get over that hump. Cleveland probably won't improve that much but who knows what will happen if they hire Francona. Minnesota will probably suck again.

I think we will see a lot more of Dunn at 1B next year with Paulie DH'ing more often. Peavy will be gone. Youk and Floyd may be back. They won't rush anyone up from the minors and why would they, just to shed some salary, no way. Catcher might be the biggest question mark. AJ is so durable. Who else is out there that will outperform AJ for his $2-4 million asking price?

I don't think there will be a large dropoff in the season ticket holder base next year because the majority of ST holders probably opted to use their post season ticket money as a deposit for next year. The only other option was to get a refund and lose your seat location for next year. That playoff push or whatever it was called ticket plan will also lock in a few more season ticket holders which should more than offset the cancellations.

While parking is priced way too high there is no reason to complain about ticket prices. The Sox lowered prices in 2012 for all but the best seats in the house plus there were discount codes for almost every game including games like Elvis night and the Yankees. The codes were very easy to find after a quick google search. The days of meaningful walk up sales are over. It's much easier and cheaper to buy tickets from home even a couple of hours before the game.

There should also be more high quality giveaways. Doing so will do nothing but increase the number of tickets sold guranteed.

The Sox need more ticket tiers. Those seats right behind the dugout should not cost the same as tickets in row 37 of sections 121 and 143. The back sections of the UD past the bases and last 10 rows of the outfield should be $10 seats for all games. The lower level corners should be $15, those are not good seats and empty for most games for a reason.

What is really going to hurt ticket sales next year, and has already been discussed is the terrible schedule:

April: 16 home games, no "premiere" matchups
May: 11 home games, 2 vs Cubs and 3 vs Boston (not really a premiere team anymore) and 3 vs Marlins
June: 11 home games, 2 weeknight games again NYM, big whoop
July: 13 home games, 3 vs Braves and only 6 against division rivals whose fans travel well in July
August: 15 home games, 3 vs NYY
September: 14 home games all against division rivals

Those 30 games in April and September will have brutal attendance, April because of school/weather and September because as we just went through even if we are in first place Sox fans do not show up in September. If we were totally out of it then you would have the 1 penny tickets on stubhub for most of the September games.

Marketing could bump it up a bit and McDonough coming over could not hurt but he has a nice job with the Hawks. Maybe he could take over the business side of the Sox with KW running the baseball side? Is Howard Pizer the current person in charge of the business side? I could see the chances of McDonough becoming a reality increase dramatically if there is no NHL season.

Nellie_Fox
10-02-2012, 12:31 PM
There are so many permutations of what KW/Hahn could do this offseason, so I'm just going to wait and see. But these are just a few suggestions:

Our pitchers need to give up fewer walks.

Continue taking infield practice regularly.

Work with DeAza, Beckham, and Alexei on their hitting approaches - including bunting for hits - as well as their base running.You see those things as the responsibility of the front office? If your GM starts interfering with the field manager to that extent, you've really got problems.

FielderJones
10-02-2012, 12:46 PM
While parking is priced way too high there is no reason to complain about ticket prices. The Sox lowered prices in 2012 for all but the best seats in the house plus there were discount codes for almost every game including games like Elvis night and the Yankees. The codes were very easy to find after a quick google search. The days of meaningful walk up sales are over. It's much easier and cheaper to buy tickets from home even a couple of hours before the game.

I think you're giving the casual fan too much credit. Most people who aren't hard core fans like us aren't going to go looking around for discount codes and other gimmicks. Most people want to see, up front, what a ticket is going to cost. Not only is the "sticker" price of the average ticket too high at the beginning of the year, the ridiculous dynamic pricing just adds more uncertainty.


The Sox need more ticket tiers. Those seats right behind the dugout should not cost the same as tickets in row 37 of sections 121 and 143. The back sections of the UD past the bases and last 10 rows of the outfield should be $10 seats for all games. The lower level corners should be $15, those are not good seats and empty for most games for a reason.


This. There needs to be a larger percentage difference between the top seats and the worst seats in the house, if you want to sell bargain seats.

eriqjaffe
10-02-2012, 12:52 PM
Sox went into a funk at the wrong time of the year that's why they are going to be watching from homeGoing a combined 12-24 against Kansas City and Detroit didn't help. The Sox just flat out lost the division because they couldn't beat teams the needed to beat and one team in particularly that they should have beaten.

If the Sox had gone .500 against each team, they'd be 90-69 right now and would have clinched a few days ago.

LITTLE NELL
10-02-2012, 01:02 PM
Going a combined 12-24 against Kansas City and Detroit didn't help. The Sox just flat out lost the division because they couldn't beat teams the needed to beat and one team in particularly that they should have beaten.

If the Sox had gone .500 against each team, they'd be 90-69 right now and would have clinched a few days ago.

If,the largest word in the English language.

kittle42
10-02-2012, 01:22 PM
I think you're giving the casual fan too much credit. Most people who aren't hard core fans like us aren't going to go looking around for discount codes and other gimmicks. Most people want to see, up front, what a ticket is going to cost. Not only is the "sticker" price of the average ticket too high at the beginning of the year, the ridiculous dynamic pricing just adds more uncertainty.

Hell, even hardcore fans don't utilize codes and StubHub.

Regardless of how cheap we all know if might get to go to games, the great majority of the public doesn't know that. Thus, face value must be dropped.

DeadMoney
10-02-2012, 01:59 PM
Hell, even hardcore fans don't utilize codes and StubHub.

Regardless of how cheap we all know if might get to go to games, the great majority of the public doesn't know that. Thus, face value must be dropped.

The ticket prices need to go through a careful reevaluation this off season followed by some change. And it needs to be done early on. Dropping prices 3-5 days (or in some cases, a week or so) before the games doesn't help, and it's showed. Attendance issues are solved and corrected in the off season, not in the middle of the year.

TomBradley72
10-02-2012, 02:20 PM
I may just need a break from my White Sox obsession after 2009-2012- 4 seasons of almost complete frustration and disappointment- but I think 2013 COULD be the season when all of the sins of the Kenny Williams era come home to roost.

The sin of a poorly developed minor league system- with very few (if any?) position players or pitchers who can have an impact on the major league level- combined with....

The sin of high priced veterans exiting the team (Peavy, AJ, Youkilis) along with what may be one of the worst FA signings in team history- Adam Dunn eating up $14M in payroll-

Leaving a .525 winning pct team downgraded at 3rd base and catcher- and a rotation of Danks/Sale/Quintana/?/?

Add to that- Red Line construction, overall apathy of the fan base, and problems in marketing, ticket pricing, TV/radio booths- it's hard to picture anything that will really turn around this team unless the owner goes big in free agency- which is hard to picture based on their history and 2012 attendance.

This years record (.525 winning pct) would have put us 10 GB last year and 9 GB in 2010- and with Martinez back for Detroit- it's hard to picture them struggling like this year.

TomBradley72
10-02-2012, 02:24 PM
The ticket prices need to go through a careful reevaluation this off season followed by some change. And it needs to be done early on. Dropping prices 3-5 days (or in some cases, a week or so) before the games doesn't help, and it's showed. Attendance issues are solved and corrected in the off season, not in the middle of the year.

I now this is redundant to my OP- but they are just getting lazy when it comes to marketing, etc.

Small example- I go to the game Friday night- as I walk in I'm handed a small, black and white piece of paper with the 2013 schedule on it.

I go to Miller Park Saturday night- I'm handed a rally towel (still fighting for wild card), a team photo and a nice, large magnetic schedule with the 2013 chedule- really nice and on the fridge at home.

kittle42
10-02-2012, 02:30 PM
I now this is redundant to my OP- but they are just getting lazy when it comes to marketing, etc.

Small example- I go to the game Friday night- as I walk in I'm handed a small, black and white piece of paper with the 2013 schedule on it.

I go to Miller Park Saturday night- I'm handed a rally towel (still fighting for wild card), a team photo and a nice, large magnetic schedule with the 2013 chedule- really nice and on the fridge at home.

You are so right. When the team doesn't care, neither do the fans. That's how Sox fans can be. The Sox had a chance with a team that was contending to try to dent the market a little (with Cubs fans not attending games there, either), but they showed about as much faith in their team as they inspired in the fans.

thomas35forever
10-02-2012, 02:35 PM
I'll give my 2 cents based on the OP's structure.

1) The Major League roster definitely needs some tuning, particularly with the bench. I think one of the reasons the lineup ran out of gas was because we weren't deep enough, so Robin was forced to ride his main horses nearly every day. Faced with losing Youk and AJ to free agency, it might become a moot point if we can't solidify their respective positions. Still, find some second-tier players who can hit and hopefully, we won't see another September drought on offense as we have these past two weeks. Consider Santiago as the fifth starter if no one can be picked up via trade or free agency. The bullpen is fine as it is if you subtract a lot of the September call-ups. I like what the future holds for the pitching staff overall. A lot of good young arms to build around.

2) The farm system definitely needs a major overhaul. I won't pretend to know how to execute that because I'm not a big-league GM. However, if getting fresh young blood down in Charlotte and Birmingham means trading away some of our higher-value Major Leaguers, I wouldn't be against it. This is an issue that has plagued the Sox for years and why we've constantly had to look for outside help instead of shaping more of our roster internally. I agree that KW may have overdone trading prospects for established veterans, but we'll see if Hahn decides to be more conservative in that regard. Hope the drafting continues to improve as well.

3) I don't know if Brooks Boyer needs to step aside, but there needs to be a new approach in how this team is marketed. Dynamic and parking prices are issues indeed, but the bigger one is that they need to show people why taking a trip to the South Side is a good idea. We were in first place most of the year and Boyer failed miserably in taking advantage of that fact. Otherwise, we would have broken the 30,000 mark much more frequently. Alas, that wasn't the case and that resulted in the usual tired "Sox fans aren't showing up" crap from the media. Something needs to be done badly. Also, do away with a lot of the promotions and create new ones. All the buzz from 2005 is gone, so you don't need to act like it's still there by keeping everything from that year around. Everyone else has moved on. They need to do the same.

4) Hawk and Farmer aren't going anywhere. That much is certain. I wouldn't be surprised to see Stone jump ship and regardless of who you pair Hawk with in the booth, the TV broadcasts are always going to sound the same because he's the one dictating how it goes. Get rid of Jackson though. The quality in radio broadcasts took a big hit after Stone left and Jackson is hardly an improvement over Singleton (whom I will give props for making it to ESPN). We've heard time and again how boring it is for the listening audience and I can't say I blame them. There's no excitement there and if I weren't a Sox fan, I'd probably bash it endlessly myself. Farmer can sound good. You just need to pair him with the right guy. Maybe Wimpy? Just a name I'm throwing out there. Just take that with a grain of salt. Help draw the fans in by making them want to listen to the radio instead of putting up with Hawk if that's not what they'd rather do.

Noneck
10-02-2012, 02:46 PM
Help draw the fans in by making them want to listen to the radio instead of putting up with Hawk if that's not what they'd rather do.

The days of listening to Rooney and Farmer or even Stone and Farmer while watching the TV broadcast are long gone because of the time lag.

thomas35forever
10-02-2012, 03:44 PM
The days of listening to Rooney and Farmer or even Stone and Farmer while watching the TV broadcast are long gone because of the time lag.
I'm aware of that, but that's beside the point here. People would still rather not listen to Hawk, so I'm trying to find a solution that pleases everyone.

kittle42
10-02-2012, 03:50 PM
I'll give my 2 cents based on the OP's structure.

3) I don't know if Brooks Boyer needs to step aside, but there needs to be a new approach in how this team is marketed. Dynamic and parking prices are issues indeed, but the bigger one is that they need to show people why taking a trip to the South Side is a good idea. We were in first place most of the year and Boyer failed miserably in taking advantage of that fact. Otherwise, we would have broken the 30,000 mark much more frequently. Alas, that wasn't the case and that resulted in the usual tired "Sox fans aren't showing up" crap from the media. Something needs to be done badly. Also, do away with a lot of the promotions and create new ones. All the buzz from 2005 is gone, so you don't need to act like it's still there by keeping everything from that year around. Everyone else has moved on. They need to do the same.

This, to me, is almost a bigger issue to helping the franchise than the on-field product. "The Kids Can Play" years were better than this in fan interest (yes, I am sure someone will show me numbers to the contrary, but bear with me that we are now in post-2005 world and the baseline expectations are different). People need a reason to be interested in this franchise, and apparently being a few games in first place in a crappy division most of the season is not enough on its own.

Figure out a way to market this team and this franchise regardless of who is on the field and in the dugout.

Chez
10-02-2012, 04:02 PM
This, to me, is almost a bigger issue to helping the franchise than the on-field product. "The Kids Can Play" years were better than this in fan interest (yes, I am sure someone will show me numbers to the contrary, but bear with me that we are now in post-2005 world and the baseline expectations are different). People need a reason to be interested in this franchise, and apparently being a few games in first place in a crappy division most of the season is not enough on its own.

Figure out a way to market this team and this franchise regardless of who is on the field and in the dugout.

I agree with you, but this is no small task. Until this season, I thought that the Sox fan base (such as it is) would show up to the ballpark if the on-field product was competitive. Unless this year was a fluke, I'm not sure I still believe that "conventional wisdom" about Sox fans and attendance. Until mid to late September, this was an exciting, likable first place team.

Unless the Sox are willing to reduce ticket prices, I'm not sure how they grow attendance. What is "the reason to be interested in this franchise" if it's not tied to on field performance?

Maybe drawing 1.9 million is the new normal.

Lip Man 1
10-02-2012, 04:12 PM
Chez:

I'm not disagreeing with you but this was also the same team that rolled over and died before September every time they had the chance to put Detroit away, and the results against K.C. speak for themselves. I can see why fans would be "skeptical" especially when you factor in ticket prices, parking etc.

The Sox kept shooting themselves in the foot during the season causing a lot of fans to basically say, "not convinced..." (and it turned out they were right...)

Lip

Chez
10-02-2012, 04:18 PM
Chez:

I'm not disagreeing with you but this was also the same team that rolled over and died before September every time they had the chance to put Detroit away, and the results against K.C. speak for themselves. I can see why fans would be "skeptical" especially when you factor in ticket prices, parking etc.

The Sox kept shooting themselves in the foot during the season causing a lot of fans to basically say, "not convinced..." (and it turned out they were right...)

Lip

You may be right, Lip; but under the logic of that position, the Sox will only draw 20-25,000 per game (if that) until the playoffs start -- because only then -- when the Sox have made the playoffs -- will fans shed their skepticism. If that's the case, then what's the point of doing any marketing (other than lowering ticket prices)?

kittle42
10-02-2012, 04:28 PM
I'd have to also think that if the Sox acquired an everyday player who was awesome (like, MVP level awesome) and likeable and marketable, it would be a huge help on all levels, including promotion. Yes, I realize this is pretty much a, "well, duh" statement, but it's something the franchise never does.

Chez
10-02-2012, 04:41 PM
I'd have to also think that if the Sox acquired an everyday player who was awesome (like, MVP level awesome) and likeable and marketable, it would be a huge help on all levels, including promotion. Yes, I realize this is pretty much a, "well, duh" statement, but it's something the franchise never does.

Brooks, Kenny, Rick -- figure out a way to pry Joe Mauer from the Twins or Buster Posey from the Giants. Get'r Done. :smile:

Nellie_Fox
10-02-2012, 04:41 PM
While all of you make valid points, I still think it's being over-analyzed. The fact remains that it's just not "cool" to be a Sox fan in Chicago, and it's "cool" to be a Cubs fan. That's what's emphasized all over Chicago media, Wrigley Field and the Cubs. It's a shrine, the Cubs are a "storied franchise." The "long-suffering Cubs fan" has become part of Chicago lore, and are held up as some kind of example for all sports fans to emulate. "Oh, they're so loyal and passionate about the Cubbies!"

The news people fawn over the Cubs when they hand off to the sports guy on the 10:00 news. Anything negative about Wrigley or the area around it is not talked about; it's all sunshine and unicorns.

kittle42
10-02-2012, 04:52 PM
While all of you make valid points, I still think it's being over-analyzed. The fact remains that it's just not "cool" to be a Sox fan in Chicago, and it's "cool" to be a Cubs fan. That's what's emphasized all over Chicago media

No question, but (and I hate to use this guy as an example) maybe getting our own Sosa type would be a huge step toward overcoming that.

Albert Belle and Adam Dunn weren't the answers.

TomBradley72
10-02-2012, 04:59 PM
While all of you make valid points, I still think it's being over-analyzed. The fact remains that it's just not "cool" to be a Sox fan in Chicago, and it's "cool" to be a Cubs fan. That's what's emphasized all over Chicago media, Wrigley Field and the Cubs. It's a shrine, the Cubs are a "storied franchise." The "long-suffering Cubs fan" has become part of Chicago lore, and are held up as some kind of example for all sports fans to emulate. "Oh, they're so loyal and passionate about the Cubbies!"

The news people fawn over the Cubs when they hand off to the sports guy on the 10:00 news. Anything negative about Wrigley or the area around it is not talked about; it's all sunshine and unicorns.

But it IS possible to change that dynamic- just ask the Angels and the Dodgers.

With aggressive, creative leadership and investment- the dyamic can be changed- but going back to the mid-80's JR has always played the role of "victim" vs. truly going after it.

DeadMoney
10-02-2012, 05:03 PM
No question, but (and I hate to use this guy as an example) maybe getting our own Sosa type would be a huge step toward overcoming that.

Albert Belle and Adam Dunn weren't the answers.

Getting the Chicago media in their back pocket couldn't hurt either.

IMO this is where the Sox have failed big time the last several years. Whether it was Ozzie sparring with Mariotti or KW sparring with Cowley, the White Sox never had a large enough voice on their side, and instead chose to pick fights with people that could've helped them. Even with as dirty as it may seem to try to be in bed with guys like that, it's sometimes a necessary evil.

Nellie_Fox
10-02-2012, 05:06 PM
But it IS possible to change that dynamic- just ask the Angels and the Dodgers.

With aggressive, creative leadership and investment- the dyamic can be changed- but going back to the mid-80's JR has always played the role of "victim" vs. truly going after it.I'm not at all confident that it will change until "the shrine" is gone. The Dodgers certainly weren't selling their ballpark.

WhiffleBall
10-02-2012, 05:10 PM
No question, but (and I hate to use this guy as an example) maybe getting our own Sosa type would be a huge step toward overcoming that.

Albert Belle and Adam Dunn weren't the answers.

Frank Thomas!

Thome came close. Everyone loved/loves that guy.

If Beckham would have kept up his rookie year offense along with his current stellar defense then he could have been that player.

The list of 2013 free agents is pretty sparse big talent/name wise, maybe Granderson or Wright if their options aren't picked up:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/04/2013-mlb-free-agents.html

Frater Perdurabo
10-02-2012, 05:14 PM
You see those things as the responsibility of the front office? If your GM starts interfering with the field manager to that extent, you've really got problems.

I guess I wasn't clear. I didn't want to address roster construction, which is the job of the front office. I only wanted to address on-field issues, which are the responsibility of the coaching staff. It was clear to me, but perhaps I should have been more clear to differentiate in my post.

kittle42
10-02-2012, 05:16 PM
Frank Thomas!

Thome came close. Everyone loved/loves that guy.

If Beckham would have kept up his rookie year offense along with his current stellar defense then he could have been that player.

The list of 2013 free agents is pretty sparse big talent/name wise, maybe Granderson or Wright if their options aren't picked up:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/04/2013-mlb-free-agents.html

Thomas was the greatest hitter in franchise history but was not a media darling and was viewed as surly until now, as he has shown a softer side in broadcasting (no doubt).

Thome's best years were behind him, not that he wasn't good.

Wright or Granderson aren't big enough to do it.

voodoochile
10-02-2012, 05:18 PM
No question, but (and I hate to use this guy as an example) maybe getting our own Sosa type would be a huge step toward overcoming that.

Albert Belle and Adam Dunn weren't the answers.

We just lost our Sosa to Miami (and no I don't mean Buerhle)

Noneck
10-02-2012, 05:29 PM
Frank Thomas!



Thomas should have been the Chicago darling before Sosa but it was horrible timing. The Jordan years coincided with the Thomas years and Sosa shot up right after the jordan years.

kittle42
10-02-2012, 05:40 PM
We just lost our Sosa to Miami (and no I don't mean Buerhle)

It's a lot easier to get people to come out to watch a player than a manager, I'd think.

ChiSoxFann
10-02-2012, 05:57 PM
While all of you make valid points, I still think it's being over-analyzed. The fact remains that it's just not "cool" to be a Sox fan in Chicago, and it's "cool" to be a Cubs fan.

IMHO, the Sox can change this by having sustained success. The current model of making the playoffs ever 5-8 years is not how to do it.

Lip mentioned the Indians having their run in the 90s, Minnesota in the early 2000s and now, it appears, the Tigers. If it was the Sox winning Central Division titles every year I feel the tide would shift and it would be cool to be a Sox fan, especially with the Cubs being down for the next few years.

voodoochile
10-02-2012, 06:11 PM
It's a lot easier to get people to come out to watch a player than a manager, I'd think.

I think there are very few players who draw simply because they are great baseball players. It's a lot harder to single out individual players in baseball as being "the reason" a team is succeeding - other than pitchers. I think pitchers can draw. I bet Verlander draws for example. I doubt Cabrera does though.

Sosa drew because of what he was accomplishing. Him and McGwire were doing things no one had before. Yes they were juiced, but the fans were either willing to overlook that or were ignorant of it.

If some player in the league suddenly goes on a HR binge or starts to make a serious run at .400, you'll see a spike in attendance too, but even a guy like Cabrera who is making a run at a triple crown won't spike ticket sales that dramatically, IMO. Royals might see a few extra people the next few nights who would otherwise ignore them at this stage of the game, simply to say they were there when Cabrera did it, but they won't suddenly sell out I don't think and in this case it would be something that would last only a few games because it is so dependent on so many things breaking right in the last few games of the season.

Edit: And my reference to Ozzie was that his bluster was similar to Sosa's. He was the most visible vocal face of the franchise. His style is what makes him a draw.

JB98
10-02-2012, 06:15 PM
While all of you make valid points, I still think it's being over-analyzed. The fact remains that it's just not "cool" to be a Sox fan in Chicago, and it's "cool" to be a Cubs fan. That's what's emphasized all over Chicago media, Wrigley Field and the Cubs. It's a shrine, the Cubs are a "storied franchise." The "long-suffering Cubs fan" has become part of Chicago lore, and are held up as some kind of example for all sports fans to emulate. "Oh, they're so loyal and passionate about the Cubbies!"

The news people fawn over the Cubs when they hand off to the sports guy on the 10:00 news. Anything negative about Wrigley or the area around it is not talked about; it's all sunshine and unicorns.

I don't know why the Sox didn't go after the Cubs this year. There should have been billboards on the North Side of Chicago: "Tired of rebuilding? Come see a contending team eight miles south."

They never want to take on the Cubs. Never. I don't know why.

Lip Man 1
10-02-2012, 06:48 PM
While all of you make valid points, I still think it's being over-analyzed. The fact remains that it's just not "cool" to be a Sox fan in Chicago, and it's "cool" to be a Cubs fan. That's what's emphasized all over Chicago media, Wrigley Field and the Cubs. It's a shrine, the Cubs are a "storied franchise." The "long-suffering Cubs fan" has become part of Chicago lore, and are held up as some kind of example for all sports fans to emulate. "Oh, they're so loyal and passionate about the Cubbies!"

The news people fawn over the Cubs when they hand off to the sports guy on the 10:00 news. Anything negative about Wrigley or the area around it is not talked about; it's all sunshine and unicorns.

Nellie: And for that the Sox have only themselves to blame...trying to market themselves from day 1 as "Chicago's American League Team...", SportsVision, JR's part in 94, the "White Flag Trade..." just one self induced mistake after another.

Now it may be to late to change anything even with winning a World Series.

TOM: Before the first Cub / Sox game in 97, JR made this statement on the pregame show, "Chicago has always been a Cubs-town..." Considering JR lived in Chicago since 1957 he should have known better, that's an outright falsehood statement. But it does serve to illustrate your point about being a "victim."

Lip

TomBradley72
10-02-2012, 06:56 PM
I'm not at all confident that it will change until "the shrine" is gone. The Dodgers certainly weren't selling their ballpark.

No- the Dodgers were selling one of the most sucessful franchises in MLB history with 10 World Series appearances since moving to LA + being the team of the celebrities/Hollywood set and a ballpark (Dodger Stadium) that was universally perceived as one of the best in MLB.

The Angels? Nothing to really sell- non descript ballpark, an expansion team from the early 60's with one post season appearance and zero World Series (at the time the Angels started to make their move).

Screw the shrine and the defeatist mentality about taking on one of the losingest franshises in all of major team sports.

There is ALOT of work to be done- but it CAN be done- but as long as JR and his management team are willing to cave to that mentality they don't stand a chance.

Nothing personal- but the White Sox have allowed the Cubs/Wrigley Field "aura" to take on a life of it's own for 30+ years while all but rolling over and giving into it + various self inflicted wounds (i.e. Sportsvision, letting Harry Caray go, building a horrible, sterile park with no connection to their history (pre-renovations), not understanding or catering to the core fan base, ignoring the importance of the neighborhood around the park, etc.)

russ99
10-02-2012, 07:10 PM
But it IS possible to change that dynamic- just ask the Angels and the Dodgers.

With aggressive, creative leadership and investment- the dyamic can be changed- but going back to the mid-80's JR has always played the role of "victim" vs. truly going after it.

Also, the reasons that it supposedly not cool to be a Sox fan are pretty much old stereotypes and some are outright fabrications by the Trib back when they ran the Cubs.

What should really be the focus is how much fun it is to go to a Sox game.

I have at least one group a year of co-workers in Evanston, and other than the people I know are fans all remark to me how much fun they had and how nice the park is, often surprised. That needs to change.

TaylorStSox
10-02-2012, 07:42 PM
I guess it's the circle I keep. There certainly isn't anything "cool" about the Cubs or Wrigleyville. I'd say it's about as anti-cool, fratboy, yuppie as it gets. Granted this is coming from art school/bike messenger. Unfortunately, the Bohemian/Hipster types tend not to give a **** about sports.:)

KyWhiSoxFan
10-02-2012, 07:47 PM
It's a lot easier to get people to come out to watch a player than a manager, I'd think.

Ozzie will dispute that. In his mind, they all came to see him.

SephClone89
10-02-2012, 07:52 PM
I guess it's the circle I keep. There certainly isn't anything "cool" about the Cubs or Wrigleyville. I'd say it's about as anti-cool, fratboy, yuppie as it gets. Granted this is coming from art school/bike messenger. Unfortunately, the Bohemian/Hipster types tend not to give a **** about sports.:)
In general, yes, but I think if a hipster is going to like any sport it might be baseball (and soccer).

soxtalker
10-02-2012, 07:57 PM
In looking at the status of this team and overall organization as we close out a disappointing 2012- to what degree do you think it's time for a significant overhaul across the board (not just on the playing field)?
Major league roster- expensive free agent contracts looming for Peavy, Youkilis and AJ (without any real help in the farm system to replace them)- and saddled with Adam Dunn for another 2 years.
Farm System- some good talent that helped the 2012 team (young pitching especially)- but I don't see alot of guys that could potentially help in 2013 where we need the help.
Marketing- After a strong start- I think Brooks Boyer is running out of gas- if you can't draw 2 million when you spend most of the season you're in 1st place and the cross town team is losing 100 games- I think marketing is accountable. "Dynamic pricing", worn out promotions like Mullett Night, etc., mediocre TV and newspaper advertising, etc.- they seem to really have lost their way in this area.
TV & Radio Announcers- IMHO Farmer & DJ are unlistenable- I only listen when I need a score- but I used to like having the radio on in the background while doing other things during the season- but not with these 2- I think both should be dumped. On the TV side- I'm more of a Hawk fan than most- but he showed a noticable decline this season, and the chemistry just isn't there with Stone.
I think this team needs some bold, offseason changes to get back on track- but there's no real evidence that JR has the inclination or the ability to execute aggressive changes quickly.

Interesting thread. I'm late to commenting, but I think I've read most posts. Using the format of the starting post, here are a few thoughts.

Major league roster -- KW made a lot of changes during the season, trying to adjust to the injuries, etc. What struck me all along was that virtually all of those changes were designed to have minimal impact beyond this season. The moves just felt different than in the past. Add in the expiring contracts of veterans like Peavy and AJ. It's almost like they have been setting this up for a big change. Now, they've signed players that were almost out the door in the past -- Konerko, AJ, Buerhle -- and they could do so again, though I won't be surprised if they let AJ and Peavy leave.

But the overall point is that it almost feels like they may have been planning this transition for awhile. It's not just Hahn's promotion.

Minor league system -- Obviously, they are ranked low for a reason. And a few of the top draft picks have moved up to the major league club immediately. But I think that they've been reorganizing this for a couple of years. And it was nice to see Charlotte have a great season. (They lost out in the playoffs, but I'm guessing that was largely due to the Sox needing many of the players.)

Marketing -- I think that the economy -- and its impact on baseball attendance -- turned out to be much worse than they anticipated. It's probably true for many teams in baseball.

I certainly wasn't happy with (and didn't understand) having one of the top ticket costs, though, as many have pointed out, there are ways to get access to lower prices. One would think that dynamic pricing would enable that, but it doesn't sound like it worked that way. But I'd give the dynamic pricing a couple of years to settle out. All of baseball is trying it, and the teams are going to learn from each other.

TV & Radio Announcers -- Certainly, Stone and Hawk won't be back together -- maybe neither. But it just feels like Hawk is done. It's not just the problems during the end-of-season skid. I thought we were doing pretty well when he had the meltdown earlier in the season to which Selig took exception. Maybe they can figure a way to transition him into retirement.

I've been a fan for a long time (about 50 years), so I've seen a lot of good and bad teams and moments. I guess that I'm not overly pessimistic, but, then again, I'm not expecting a WS next year either.

palehozenychicty
10-02-2012, 08:52 PM
Nobody's going to games anyway. It's obviously not just about wins. This team is stale.

In a career year, AJ's OPS is .750 with bad pitch calling and worse defense.

This is what some people don't seem to get. Nobody's going when the team wins 86 games, which is why the management keeps building a team with that level of TALENT.

They're not going to make a serious effort to add talent for a 10-15 game improvement. Right now, they are as flat a franchise as you can find in the game.

Zakath
10-02-2012, 08:55 PM
People need to remember that this team was predicted to win 67 games, and will end up with 84-86 wins, finishing second to a team that was supposed to run away and hide from everyone else.

Do we need an overhaul? Yes. Major? Iffy. Total? No.

Yes, our "core" is getting long in the tooth. However, people seem to forget that at one point this season, PK was flirting with .400, and will end up pretty close to, if not over, .300, even with an injured hand.

AJ had never hit more than 18 HR a season; he's sitting at 27. He's a lifetime .284/.324/.753 hitter. Does anyone think that Flowers, who is a good defensive catcher but needs a lot of work at the plate, is going to match this magically next season? With more AB, yes, he's not going to strike out 54 times in 133 AB's, but he's not going to be that great of a hitter, especially for average.

Talk about trading Rios is unbelievably dumb. This actually isn't a career year for him; 2011 was so bad that it MAKES 2012 look like a career year. Even with the disaster that was 2011, he's a .278/.324/.768 lifetime hitter. He's going to end up this year at just over .300 with an OPS of around .850.

As others mentioned, what we need is offensive depth, as well as some speed. We will be last in the majors in doubles this season, 3rd in HR, and middle-of-the-pack in average and OBP. Despite Dunn's high number of K's (not all of which were bad, as many came in positions where a K was no worse than a groundout or a flyout), we are still 13th in MLB in K's (first being fewest), but 22nd in drawing walks. We're living and dying by the long ball, and we need some singles and doubles hitters.

kobo
10-02-2012, 09:09 PM
This is what some people don't seem to get. Nobody's going when the team wins 86 games, which is why the management keeps building a team with that level of TALENT.

They're not going to make a serious effort to add talent for a 10-15 game improvement. Right now, they are as flat a franchise as you can find in the game.
It's the "we play to win this season" mentality that has existed for the better part of KW's tenure. Some folks like this approach. I'm not a fan. It does not lead to sustained success. It does not instill any type of hope or optimism. Seeing as how the Sox very rarely sign an impact FA what excitement is the club generating about its own product? Sure, they can conceivably go for it every season and think fans will buy into that line of thinking but the results are showing us people aren't doing that. Add in the September failures of this team, which isn't going unnoticed by casual fans by the way, and there just isn't much hope or optimism when it comes to White Sox baseball.

In all honesty, I don't think anything is really going to change until this current ownership group decides to sell the team. Until that happens, it's going to be more of the same year in and year out. They had a chance to really make a difference in this town after 05 and they blew it. I know they added Thome after that season and then blew it again in September, but it seems like since then they've been ok just being average and trying to make a move here and there that just might get them back in the playoffs.

soxtalker
10-02-2012, 09:33 PM
AJ had never hit more than 18 HR a season; he's sitting at 27. He's a lifetime .284/.324/.753 hitter. Does anyone think that Flowers, who is a good defensive catcher but needs a lot of work at the plate, is going to match this magically next season? With more AB, yes, he's not going to strike out 54 times in 133 AB's, but he's not going to be that great of a hitter, especially for average.


The question may be what other teams want to pay him and, perhaps more important, for how long. It's a bit like the Buerhle situation last year. AJ has been quite durable, but he is getting up in years. I don't know the numbers, but I have the impression that Ventura was sitting him a bit more than Ozzie did in previous years.

kobo
10-02-2012, 09:43 PM
The question may be what other teams want to pay him and, perhaps more important, for how long. It's a bit like the Buerhle situation last year. AJ has been quite durable, but he is getting up in years. I don't know the numbers, but I have the impression that Ventura was sitting him a bit more than Ozzie did in previous years.
Nope. AJ started 121 games this year, compared to 112 last year. The 121 starts is normal for him over the course of his career.

SephClone89
10-02-2012, 09:45 PM
Nope. AJ started 121 games this year, compared to 112 last year. The 121 starts is normal for him over the course of his career.

I just realize this, but damn did I miss Ramon Castro this year.

palehozenychicty
10-02-2012, 10:45 PM
It's the "we play to win this season" mentality that has existed for the better part of KW's tenure. Some folks like this approach. I'm not a fan. It does not lead to sustained success. It does not instill any type of hope or optimism. Seeing as how the Sox very rarely sign an impact FA what excitement is the club generating about its own product? Sure, they can conceivably go for it every season and think fans will buy into that line of thinking but the results are showing us people aren't doing that. Add in the September failures of this team, which isn't going unnoticed by casual fans by the way, and there just isn't much hope or optimism when it comes to White Sox baseball.

In all honesty, I don't think anything is really going to change until this current ownership group decides to sell the team. Until that happens, it's going to be more of the same year in and year out. They had a chance to really make a difference in this town after 05 and they blew it. I know they added Thome after that season and then blew it again in September, but it seems like since then they've been ok just being average and trying to make a move here and there that just might get them back in the playoffs.

Exactly. The franchise have seen revenue increases, but the team is still inconsistent as ever. The WS win looks good, but the management has struck out.

Lip Man 1
10-02-2012, 10:53 PM
This is what some people don't seem to get. Nobody's going when the team wins 86 games, which is why the management keeps building a team with that level of TALENT.

They're not going to make a serious effort to add talent for a 10-15 game improvement. Right now, they are as flat a franchise as you can find in the game.

Pale: This stat floored me. Honestly I wasn't expecting this...I thought it would be better given that they've had 19 winning years.

In the 32 years that current ownership has run the White Sox the average yearly record is:

81.54 wins
76.39 losses

(Remember games were wiped out by the labor impasses in 1981, 1994 and they got a late start in 1995, that's why the numbers don't add up exactly to 81-81.)

Lip

palehozenychicty
10-02-2012, 11:16 PM
Pale: This stat floored me. Honestly I wasn't expecting this...I thought it would be better given that they've had 19 winning years.

In the 32 years that current ownership has run the White Sox the average yearly record is:

81.54 wins
76.39 losses

(Remember games were wiped out by the labor impasses in 1981, 1994 and they got a late start in 1995, that's why the numbers don't add up exactly to 81-81.)

Lip

Yeah. It's sad, but the truth. As long as they are a decent team and attendance with programming metrics stay still, management is fine with it.

They didn't invest heavily in scouting/development after winning the title seven years ago. They won't do it now with the increased checks. That strategy would have gotten them some depth to win a few of those pennant races.

gosox41
10-02-2012, 11:18 PM
In looking at the status of this team and overall organization as we close out a disappointing 2012- to what degree do you think it's time for a significant overhaul across the board (not just on the playing field)?
Major league roster- expensive free agent contracts looming for Peavy, Youkilis and AJ (without any real help in the farm system to replace them)- and saddled with Adam Dunn for another 2 years.
Farm System- some good talent that helped the 2012 team (young pitching especially)- but I don't see alot of guys that could potentially help in 2013 where we need the help.
Marketing- After a strong start- I think Brooks Boyer is running out of gas- if you can't draw 2 million when you spend most of the season you're in 1st place and the cross town team is losing 100 games- I think marketing is accountable. "Dynamic pricing", worn out promotions like Mullett Night, etc., mediocre TV and newspaper advertising, etc.- they seem to really have lost their way in this area.
TV & Radio Announcers- IMHO Farmer & DJ are unlistenable- I only listen when I need a score- but I used to like having the radio on in the background while doing other things during the season- but not with these 2- I think both should be dumped. On the TV side- I'm more of a Hawk fan than most- but he showed a noticable decline this season, and the chemistry just isn't there with Stone.
I think this team needs some bold, offseason changes to get back on track- but there's no real evidence that JR has the inclination or the ability to execute aggressive changes quickly.

For marketing, it's easy to market a WS champ. The premium pricing turned out to be a flop. On the flipside, can anyone market this team enough so it will increase attendance? Maybe the question is: What is keeping Sox fans away form the ballpark?

In terms of broadcasting, I'd love to see Hawk go, but my guess is Stone will leave. I like Ed and DJ. Not great. But they have some good insight and entertain me a lot more than Hawk does.


Bob

Lip Man 1
10-02-2012, 11:32 PM
Gosox:

There have been numerous threads debating the reasons for the Sox attendance issues here at WSI the past week. To my mind 95% of the comments made have some validity to them.

I have to think Brooks, JR and company are aware of those same stated reasons.

Lip

Johnny Mostil
10-02-2012, 11:49 PM
Pale: This stat floored me. Honestly I wasn't expecting this...I thought it would be better given that they've had 19 winning years.

In the 32 years that current ownership has run the White Sox the average yearly record is:

81.54 wins
76.39 losses

(Remember games were wiped out by the labor impasses in 1981, 1994 and they got a late start in 1995, that's why the numbers don't add up exactly to 81-81.)

Lip

For what it's worth, here is the ranking of AL teams by number of victories since 1981 (going into tonight's games, and excluding the Rays, who weren't in the AL in 1981, and the Brewers, who have since left it).

NYY 2852
BOS 2720
OAK 2630
CHW 2612
ANA 2611
TOR 2593
TEX 2506
CLE 2486
MIN 2460
DET 2449
BAL 2419
SEA 2416
KCR 2335

None of this, of course, has much effect on whether the Sox, at present, need a complete overhaul . . .

Lip Man 1
10-03-2012, 12:15 AM
Johnny:

That's not bad to be sure.

Now can you expand the stats to show the number of postseason appearances since 1981? Not trying to belittle you or the numbers just that while the Sox look good in total wins over 32 years, I suspect they are pretty far down the pack with getting to the playoffs.

The Sox always seem to be short a player or weak in an area and the opposition always seems to find it and kill the Sox over it.

Lip

MUsoxfan
10-03-2012, 12:19 AM
For marketing, it's easy to market a WS champ. The premium pricing turned out to be a flop. On the flipside, can anyone market this team enough so it will increase attendance? Maybe the question is: What is keeping Sox fans away form the ballpark?

In terms of broadcasting, I'd love to see Hawk go, but my guess is Stone will leave. I like Ed and DJ. Not great. But they have some good insight and entertain me a lot more than Hawk does.


Bob

Yes, and I'll tell you why. John McCub, for all the backlash he's received made the Cubs and then the Hawks really hot tickets. Both those teams only showed a little promise in terms of winning when he took them over and he sells out everything.

Brooks has winning in his hands and fails miserably. The White Sox marketing team is nothing short of awful and out of touch

Johnny Mostil
10-03-2012, 05:55 AM
Johnny:

That's not bad to be sure.

Now can you expand the stats to show the number of postseason appearances since 1981? Not trying to belittle you or the numbers just that while the Sox look good in total wins over 32 years, I suspect they are pretty far down the pack with getting to the playoffs.

The Sox always seem to be short a player or weak in an area and the opposition always seems to find it and kill the Sox over it.

Lip

I suppose I could expand the stats as you request, but I don't know when you'd quit changing your metric. I assume it would be when everybody agrees with you that the past three decades have been nothing but mediocrity?

That said, I might agree with those who say some type of "spark" is missing from the team, though I don't know enough to know what it would be. At the risk of knocking this thread off-kilter, I note fans have been voting with their feet. The Sox have lost attendance every year since 2006. Is there any other team in the majors that has done that? The Sox haven't lost attendance for six consecutive seasons since 1965-1970.

Lip Man 1
10-03-2012, 12:19 PM
Johnny:

I said the numbers look good overall. I don't know what more you want out of me?

Don't worry about it. I've got some time I'll look it up this morning.

I'm not the one by the way who said it was "mediocre" you are thinking of someone else (Pale?)

I'm saying (and did in my post) that I was shocked when I did the math, I thought it would be better based on 19 winning seasons...that said you can't dispute that the number of wins averages out to just a tick close to 82 a season. 82 wins a season doesn't often get you to the post season which is what really counts. (or at least counts for a lot.)

Lip

Johnny Mostil
10-03-2012, 12:35 PM
Johnny:

I said the numbers look good overall. I don't know what more you want out of me?

Don't worry about it. I've got some time I'll look it up this morning.

I'm not the one by the way who said it was "mediocre" you are thinking of someone else (Pale?)

I'm saying (and did in my post) that I was shocked when I did the math, I thought it would be better based on 19 winning seasons...that said you can't dispute that the number of wins averages out to just a tick close to 82 a season. 82 wins a season doesn't often get you to the post season which is what really counts. (or at least counts for a lot.)

Lip

I think the more relevant question is what more do you want out of the Sox?

Yes, while "82 wins a season doesn't often get you to the post season" (and is that what really counts, or is it, as you've said elsewhere, a winning record?), the fact remains that is more wins per season than all but three teams in the AL have had during the time of current Sox ownership.

To be clear, I think everybody would agree that "something" is missing from the team. Exactly what, I don't know.

But when I see what is undoubtedly a current problem blown up to a 32-year one, as I inferred you were doing with your 32-year records, then, yes, my teeth get set on edge.

Lip Man 1
10-03-2012, 12:51 PM
I was curious what the numbers show under current ownership that's all. My personal bottom line (as you well know) are "winning seasons" -- when EVERYTHING else is lost, because of the historical mediocrity of the franchise -- that is my fall back position.

But I can understand that many fans want more, which is why I asked about the playoff situation compared to the other AL teams under current Sox ownership.

Nothing more..nothing less.

And to wit, to answer that question...here you go 81 through 2012:

32 appearances is the maximum number:

Yankees-18
Red Sox-12
Athletics-11
Angels-8
Twins-8
Indians-7
Blue Jays-5
Rangers-5
Tigers-5
White Sox-5
Mariners-4
Orioles-4
Rays-4 (were not in the league entire time frame...)
Royals-3
Brewers-2 (left A.L.)
Astros-0 (join A.L. in 2013)

Sox are tied with three other teams for 7th in the league in that time frame.

So the numbers show just a tick over 81 wins a season in 32 years (81-81 is a .500 record in a full season) and tied for 7th in playoff spots (in a 14 team league for that time period).

I guess maybe "mediocre" is the best way to describe the franchise? (I can't get to the 'confused' face icon or I'd use it here)

Lip

Chez
10-03-2012, 01:04 PM
Lip:

Interesting analysis. I view the number of playoff appearances as a better indicator of franchise succcess thatn average number of wins perseason. What's even more sobering than the numbers you use is that you used 1981 as the start date. If you use 1969 as the start date (1969 was the first year of divisional play), the Sox playoff number is the same -- since we didn't have a single playoff appearance from 1969 until 1983.