PDA

View Full Version : 9/26/2012 Postgamer


Viva Medias B's
09-26-2012, 11:53 PM
Okay, boys and girls, have at it.

QCIASOXFAN
09-26-2012, 11:54 PM
Bad times.

all*star quentin
09-26-2012, 11:54 PM
What happened, boys? :scratch:

amsteel
09-26-2012, 11:54 PM
Fin

Shoeless_Jeff
09-26-2012, 11:54 PM
It was a nice ride while it lasted.

samurai_sox
09-26-2012, 11:55 PM
WjQZNAfxaTw

DoItForDanPasqua
09-26-2012, 11:55 PM
I wish I was dead.

thomas35forever
09-26-2012, 11:55 PM
Not good. Not good at all. All we can do is pray the Rays and Tigers start to slump just as badly. So much for controlling our own fate.:angry:

JB98
09-26-2012, 11:55 PM
It isn't like Detroit went on an eight-game winning streak or something. The Tigers merely went 5-3, good but not great.

The Sox went 1-7 and handed them control of the division.

This is a choke, plain and simple.

OmahaSoxFan
09-26-2012, 11:56 PM
Dark clouds are starting to roll in... now introducing your 2nd place Chicago White Sox. I know the Sox are only down 1 game, but it feels like 5 at this point. Let's see lose 2 out of 3 to KC, get swept by LAA, and now lose 2 out of 3 to the Toons... I would say the Sox are in 2nd place to stay :whiner:.

Don't look now, but Tampa is coming to town for 4 - this weekend might not be fun.

PalehosePlanet
09-26-2012, 11:56 PM
Choking, slumping, team and a heartbreaking end for us fans.

Still have a chance, but it doesn't look like we're snapping out of this slide.

LoveYourSuit
09-26-2012, 11:56 PM
I said this series was a must sweep and now we end up losing this series.

Fat lady?

Crooked Number
09-26-2012, 11:57 PM
Seven games left, we should all be familiar with this situation. It looked just as bleak in 2008. We are down one game. It's not ****ing over. I don't care who the Tigers are playing these last seven games. The Sox look done right now, but they can just as easily slam the ball out of nowhere and win. Start tomorrow.

Chicago5oooh
09-26-2012, 11:57 PM
This is a deeply flawed team. I wish this had been more 2007 than 2008, maybe we could've dumped some guys and had something to build off of.

It's going to take a miracle to build a contender out of this crap heap we have.

OmahaSoxFan
09-26-2012, 11:57 PM
I said this series was a must sweep and now we end up losing this series.

Fat lady?

She's certainly starting to warm up her voice, this weekend could certainly be the death knell... if the Sox split the series with TB I would be impressed. Bad times indeed!

TommyGavinFloyd
09-26-2012, 11:58 PM
Walks.

Hendu
09-26-2012, 11:58 PM
Bad time to get ice cold.

Dibbs
09-26-2012, 11:58 PM
Start anytime now, boys.

thomas35forever
09-26-2012, 11:58 PM
You guys have at it. I'm gonna watch the new South Park I missed while at dinner tonight.

rpmorri
09-26-2012, 11:58 PM
I can see the Tiggers going on an 8 game tear from here...I'm thinking it's pretty well ovah.

Domeshot17
09-26-2012, 11:58 PM
Mathematically the season is still alive, but boy does it feel like the Season is over. Truly a pathetic run by the Sox.

I guess the Sox were nothing more than a Sheep in Wolve's clothing for a while.

LoveYourSuit
09-26-2012, 11:58 PM
This is a deeply flawed team. I wish this had been more 2007 than 2008, maybe we could've dumped some guys and had something to build off of.

It's going to take a miracle to build a contender out of this crap heap we have.

You figured this out 7 games before the season is over?

BigKlu59
09-26-2012, 11:59 PM
I said this series was a must sweep and now we end up losing this series.

Fat lady?

Not the fat Lady yet, but she has put on a few pounds over the last week..

BK59

yazz32
09-26-2012, 11:59 PM
Really really hoping I use the playoff tix I got in the mail today... but I hear Jim Mora`s voice in my head saying "Playoffs??". Tomorrow`s another day...Still hoping...

Tragg
09-26-2012, 11:59 PM
A couple of questions.
I thought our rotation was this: Sale, Peavy, Floyd, Liriano, Quintana. Is someone hurt? After all, this is crunch time, we are pitching sale 120 innings a start. We're now using a 6th starter in the deep stretch?

Viciedo has had 2 straight games in which he hit well. He's 3 for his last 6. He's 8 for his last 28 with 2 homers and 5 walks.
Wise is 0 for his last 16, and 7 for his last 35 with no homers and zero walks. it's the same story with Wise year after year: he's one of the worst hitters in baseball, and his rare hits come in bunches. The bunch has been over for 2 weeks.
Ventura benches Viciedo after a big game, Ozzie-style.
Seriously, is there some fog in the Sox Dugout and administrative office that makes people believe that Wise is a good hitter?

Can we please play our best players?

AnkleSox
09-26-2012, 11:59 PM
Go Bears, I guess.

Nelfox02
09-26-2012, 11:59 PM
its a strange game, but its hard to cook up a scenario now where the sox take this division still. Just 1 game back, but factor in how poorly this team is performing in all facets of the game and the remaining schedule for both teams....I just dont see it. Hope they prove me wrong

I really thought Dunn's shot in the first game would be a spark, but they just flat out stunk it up these last 2 games.....

what a shame

Brian26
09-27-2012, 12:00 AM
Let's see:

2005:
Graffanino lets a ball go through his legs. Iguchi hits a bomb off Wells.

2012:
Lillibridge throws a ball away to give us life. Sox don't take advantage.

We're really two games back right now because the Sox don't want to go to Game 163 in Detroit.

happydude
09-27-2012, 12:00 AM
It isn't like Detroit went on an eight-game winning streak or something. The Tigers merely went 5-3, good but not great.

The Sox went 1-7 and handed them control of the division.

This is a choke, plain and simple.

Which has happened before around this time of year but these guys seemed more resilient than past teams. We had chances to cave earlier in the year and bounced back; that's what makes what's taking place now so disappointing..

guillensdisciple
09-27-2012, 12:00 AM
I'll hope for the best, but expect the worst in this situation.

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2012, 12:01 AM
She's certainly starting to warm up her voice, this weekend could certainly be the death knell... if the Sox split the series with TB I would be impressed. Bad times indeed!


You have to go 5-2, no worse. Then hope for the Tigers to lose 3. Just to force Verlander vs Sale game 163.

What a ****ing nightmare.

southsideirish71
09-27-2012, 12:01 AM
Well hard to believe that this offense is ranked 11th in the AL in September for scoring runs.

So Youk is hitting under 200 for the month with a sub 700 OPS and Beckham has a .941 OPS for the month. At some point someone might wake the manager up to see if he can make a flip there. What we have is not working.

Soxman219
09-27-2012, 12:01 AM
At least we have a winning season!

Nelfox02
09-27-2012, 12:01 AM
Let's see:

2005:
Graffanino lets a ball go through his legs. Iguchi hits a bomb off Wells.

2012:
Lillibridge throws a ball away to give us life. Sox don't take advantage.

We're really two games back right now because the Sox don't want to go to Game 163 in Detroit.


I ll take that chance over losing the division out right......slim is better than none

Patrick134
09-27-2012, 12:01 AM
It isn't like Detroit went on an eight-game winning streak or something. The Tigers merely went 5-3, good but not great.

The Sox went 1-7 and handed them control of the division.

This is a choke, plain and simple.

I wouldnt call the whole run a choke. the angels have a better record than the sox in a tough division. the indians losses you have a point.

Noneck
09-27-2012, 12:02 AM
I hear choke, I dont think so. Some ran out of gas, some father time have caught up with and some are just not good. Now its that time, when you play it out.

Viva Medias B's
09-27-2012, 12:02 AM
I think we just ran out of gas.

ChiSoxGal85
09-27-2012, 12:02 AM
I tried to be optimistic but I couldn't even watch past the 4th...it's the same old tired struggle the Sox have displayed (with a few exceptions) the last few weeks. I hold little hope for the Sox now. If they struggle so badly with the Indians, I can't imagine they're going to able to do much damage against the Rays, with their pitching and on a red-hot winning streak.

But this is baseball, and it's a funny game.

Dick Allen
09-27-2012, 12:03 AM
**** it, if they don't care about winning the division, then neither do I.

slavko
09-27-2012, 12:03 AM
Not heartbreaking after a lifetime of similar, but this is a team effort. Hitting, SP, RP, baserunning, fielding, dugout. It takes a team to do what we're witnessing. Time to switch gears.

I talked to one of the coaches. The Bulls are not planning on a long nap until Derrick gets back. There will be something to hold our interest.

Oh, what the hey am I taliking about. They can still do it. Don't give up until you have to. But think about it.

Lip Man 1
09-27-2012, 12:06 AM
Tragg:

According to Robin, Wise started because he had better career numbers against Masterson. Robin is clearly a percentage / numbers type manager.

---------------------------------------

Sox are now 11-18 since August 26 and are now .500 since the All Star Break. Nothing usual for the Sox since 2003.

Everyone is gassed, running on fumes and mentally they are probably as low as they have been this season.I think this is it for them.

Lip

Tragg
09-27-2012, 12:06 AM
It isn't like Detroit went on an eight-game winning streak or something. The Tigers merely went 5-3, good but not great.

The Sox went 1-7 and handed them control of the division.

This is a choke, plain and simple.
I think there's a lot of choke in this collapse, including in the dugout.

Hahn has another decision there.

soxtalker
09-27-2012, 12:07 AM
I hear choke, I dont think so. Some ran out of gas, some father time have caught up with and some are just not good. Now its that time, when you play it out.

Yes. That's what it feels like. Not a choke.

Domeshot17
09-27-2012, 12:08 AM
Holy Cow, we walked 12 guys tonight. 12 guys in a bad lineup. This is just being too scared to play good baseball. 12 walks is pathetic, spineless pitching.

sox1970
09-27-2012, 12:10 AM
There's no use getting upset about the 8th best team in the AL.

They just aren't good enough. Kenny will finish his GM tenure with 2 playoff teams in 12 years. He hit it big one year, and got lucky to win a coin flip in the other.

SoxSpeed22
09-27-2012, 12:11 AM
****

Tragg
09-27-2012, 12:12 AM
Tragg:

According to Robin, Wise started because he had better career numbers against Masterson. Robin is clearly a percentage / numbers type manager.



For goodness sakes, these percentages of batter X v pitcher Y have such small sample sizes that they are virtually meaningless. Ventura doesn't know **** about statistics if that's his explanation.
Here's a statistic for him....264 OBP in 1000 at bats.
And if we want small sample sizes of recency, 1/15 coming into tonight.

JB98
09-27-2012, 12:13 AM
I wouldnt call the whole run a choke. the angels have a better record than the sox in a tough division. the indians losses you have a point.

The two losses in Kansas City also. The Sox played horrendous baseball in those two games.

It's a choke because the manager and the players have started doing out of character things.

The Sox weren't in first place for most of the summer because they were bunting in the fourth inning of a tie game. Things of that nature are just panic moves.

I think Robin and Coop have outdumbed themselves with some of these pitching moves as well. I understand the Indians suck against left-handed pitching and all, but I don't think it was a smart move to spot start Santiago in such a critical game. Even if he had done well, you knew he'd last no more than five innings.

russ99
09-27-2012, 12:13 AM
A couple of questions.
I thought our rotation was this: Sale, Peavy, Floyd, Liriano, Quintana. Is someone hurt? After all, this is crunch time, we are pitching sale 120 innings a start. We're now using a 6th starter in the deep stretch?

Viciedo has had 2 straight games in which he hit well. He's 3 for his last 6. He's 8 for his last 28 with 2 homers and 5 walks.
Wise is 0 for his last 16, and 7 for his last 35 with no homers and zero walks. it's the same story with Wise year after year: he's one of the worst hitters in baseball, and his rare hits come in bunches. The bunch has been over for 2 weeks.
Ventura benches Viciedo after a big game, Ozzie-style.
Seriously, is there some fog in the Sox Dugout and administrative office that makes people believe that Wise is a good hitter?

Can we please play our best players?

But I don't think there's any difference at this point. If you could point at one hitter who's doing badly that would be one thing. But so many guys aren't hitting.

Viciedo has just as many hits as strikeouts this month. His hit and strikeout average in September is .241, Wise is hitting .281. Even taking strengths and weakness and career numbers into effect at best it's 6 of one and a half dozen of the other.

I had such high hopes for Viciedo, but at this point, I'm not sure if he's back next year, since Boras will surely try to get him a huge raise (for his 22 HRs) in his first arbitration year for what otherwise is subpar production. I can only hope we can do better than Wise for our bench bats next year, which is another cause of our late September choke.

What I do take issue is with all these call-ups put in pressure situations the last two weeks. It's not find out what you have in the minors time, it's a damn pennant race.

JB98
09-27-2012, 12:14 AM
Holy Cow, we walked 12 guys tonight. 12 guys in a bad lineup. This is just being too scared to play good baseball. 12 walks is pathetic, spineless pitching.

Another reason I used the word "choke."

12 walks = cowardice.

PorkChopExpress
09-27-2012, 12:15 AM
Just when it looks like it's over, we're gonna get back up.

gQnOBAbn4Cs

Don't give up yet. Let's put some more of the "fanatic" in "fan"! Tomorrow's another day!

BigKlu59
09-27-2012, 12:15 AM
Holy Cow, we walked 12 guys tonight. 12 guys in a bad lineup. This is just being too scared to play good baseball. 12 walks is pathetic, spineless pitching.

It could have been over early, but as usual, a slow death instead. Not a good outing at all... Seems like if it could go wrong, it is, right now..

Here's hoping the Tigers pull a 64 Phillies and the Sox go on a 7-0 run. Hey, I can dream, cant I?

BK50

Tragg
09-27-2012, 12:15 AM
Viciedo has just as many hits as strikeouts this month. His hit and strikeout average in September is .241, Wise is hitting .281. Even taking strengths and weakness and career numbers into effect at best it's 6 of one and a half dozen of the other.

No it isn't; Wise is horrible, except in his 2 week stretches that happen a few times a season.
What's a hit and strikeout average?

Brian26
09-27-2012, 12:15 AM
For goodness sakes, these percentages of batter X v pitcher Y have such small sample sizes that they are virtually meaningless. Ventura doesn't know **** about statistics if that's his explanation.
Here's a statistic for him....264 OBP in 1000 at bats.
And if we want small sample sizes of recency, 1/15 coming into tonight.

You don't even need to look at splits to see that homer-hungry Wise is worthless once his luck runs out. I'd rather have Hudson up there because he's at least proven he can grind out an at-bat late in a game by fouling off pitches and drawing a walk. Wise is swinging through everything with that dumbass upper cut swing.

russ99
09-27-2012, 12:18 AM
No it isn't; Wise is horrible, except in his 2 week stretches that happen a few times a season.
What's a hit and strikeout average?

My snide remark that Tank's batting average is the same as his strikeouts per at-bat this month.

Patrick134
09-27-2012, 12:19 AM
You don't even need to look at splits to see that homer-hungry Wise is worthless once his luck runs out. I'd rather have Hudson up there because he's at least proven he can grind out an at-bat late in a game by fouling off pitches and drawing a walk. Wise is swinging through everything with that dumbass upper cut swing.


Wise did have that big bases loaded single to tie that monday makeup game against the tigers. While that doesnt sound huge, the sox have only won 2 games since then.

sox1970
09-27-2012, 12:20 AM
Sox are under .500 when they don't face the Twins.

WhiteSox5187
09-27-2012, 12:21 AM
I was at the game tonight and I wanted to come back here and yell and scream and point fingers and scream for someone's head, but I think the simple fact here is that the White Sox ran out of gas here at the end.

southsideirish71
09-27-2012, 12:21 AM
Well Beckham is hitting this month and has a .400 BA with great OPS against Shields. If he isnt batting second tomorrow and is hidden at the back of the lineup then the inmates are running things.

BringHomeDaBacon
09-27-2012, 12:23 AM
As an aside, it was totally moronic to pinch run for Dunn. There was no reason whatsoever for that move. He was standing on second while down 6-4. All it did was remove the bat from a potential extra innings affair with no advantage gained at all.

Patrick134
09-27-2012, 12:23 AM
Sox are under .500 when they don't face the Twins.

Sox are 60-68 against teams that are not the twins or mariners.

FoulTerritory
09-27-2012, 12:25 AM
I was at the game tonight and I wanted to come back here and yell and scream and point fingers and scream for someone's head, but I think the simple fact here is that the White Sox ran out of gas here at the end.

What does that mean? Why would the sox have less gas than any other team?

guillensdisciple
09-27-2012, 12:27 AM
After yesterday's game I really lost all interest in this game. I did not have any excitement, and just turned it on because I love the White Sox. I had little hope, I did not expect anything extraordinary, and the moment I saw the tigers coming back I knew where this game was headed.

The sox had their chance to make it a run after the walk off. Most teams would have used that as fuel to push through. We didn't, we solo homered our way to a loss yesterday and this loss was beckoning.

The rays are a great September team, and we are just the right team for them to vulture for the last 7 games while other teams battle it out for the wild card.

Like a prior poster said, the Tigers have gone 5-3 in the last 8 and we 1-7. A 4-4 record would have us floating in the clouds and with teams like the royals and Indians to play, we should have had that. We don't, and you really can't afford to play this poorly. We have to go 6-1 to win this thing. How we'll do that, I have no idea.

Soxman219
09-27-2012, 12:29 AM
What a ****ing joke. The inability to beat the Royals, Tigers, blowing a 6-0 lead against Detroit on May 15th, Losing the game in Oakland after taking the lead in 11th, losing in the 9th in Boston on a walk-off HR, pick one game out of that. That's the difference between the Sox and Tigers right now. Another blackmark for the recent trials of Chicago sports.

Patrick134
09-27-2012, 12:31 AM
After yesterday's game I really lost all interest in this game. I did not have any excitement, and just turned it on because I love the White Sox. I had little hope, I did not expect anything extraordinary, and the moment I saw the tigers coming back I knew where this game was headed.

The sox had their chance to make it a run after the walk off. Most teams would have used that as fuel to push through. We didn't, we solo homered our way to a loss yesterday and this loss was beckoning.

The rays are a great September team, and we are just the right team for them to vulture for the last 7 games while other teams battle it out for the wild card.

Like a prior poster said, the Tigers have gone 5-3 in the last 8 and we 1-7. A 4-4 record would have us floating in the clouds and with teams like the royals and Indians to play, we should have had that. We don't, and you really can't afford to play this poorly. We have to go 6-1 to win this thing. How we'll do that, I have no idea.


In my opinion, the 20/20 hindsight vision of where the collapse started was Alexei getting picked off third when we had Guthrie on the ropes in KC. I know Alex was out at the plate too, but that was a little less heinous of a play.

ShooterMcGavin
09-27-2012, 12:33 AM
The Tigers and Sox each have 7 games left to play. I don't feel good about the Sox's chances right now, but let's see how these next 14 games play out.

I think someone touched on it earlier, but winning a game 163 isn't good in that the Sox will be at a pitching disadvantage in the ALDS. And the Sox are already at a disadvantage in the ALDS.

WhiteSox5187
09-27-2012, 12:34 AM
What does that mean? Why would the sox have less gas than any other team?

Well as JB has said in previous statements I think it has to do with roster depth. The White Sox are a top heavy team reliant upon veterans, in order to stay competitive earlier in the year the White Sox have to ride guys like Youkilis, Konerko, AJ, Rios and Alexei hard in the first half and all that wear and tear starts to show in September for the Sox. The Tigers have to do the same thing obviously but the guys they are putting out there day after day are a lot younger than the guys the Sox have out there so they can take the wear and tear of playing in 140+ games a bit easier than the White Sox can.

amsteel
09-27-2012, 12:35 AM
Just because they aren't very good doesn't mean this isn't a choke. They were in first for 130+ days and didn't show up in the latter half of September. Choke plain and simple.

The issue is this team pretty much maxed out it's potential this year. Unless some big free agent moves are made (they won't) we're looking at the exact same team next year.

If you consider what was expected out of each player:
Rios and AJ had a GREAT years
PK, Gordon, Viciedo, and ADA had average seasons (PK may be slightly above average)
Alexei was slightly below what was expected
Dunn had a great bounceback year, but was below average for what they signed him to do
Third base is just as much a black hole in September as it was in April

No one had a terrible season (ie: Dunn and Rios in 2011). This is team is exactly what they were built to be: the 8th best team in the AL.

Correction: it's not 130+ days, just 126. Totally changes the argument.

palehozenychicty
09-27-2012, 12:37 AM
Today was just more of the same. This roster is not good enough. Even if they somehow snuck in. Their body language and eyes tell all.

Mr. Reinsdorf, you've had 31 years to build a consistent winner. I think it's time to step aside.

soxtalker
09-27-2012, 12:37 AM
I was looking at plots of the number of games above .500 for each team across the season on another web site.

It looks like the Sox have essentially been winning about the same number of games as they lose since the middle of July. The Tigers are pretty similar. But the Yankees, Orioles, Rangers, A's, and Angels have all been continuing to add more wins than losses through August and September.

palehozenychicty
09-27-2012, 12:38 AM
Just because they aren't very good doesn't mean this isn't a choke. They were in first for 130+ days and didn't show up in the latter half of September. Choke plain and simple.

The issue is this team pretty much maxed out it's potential this year. Unless some big free agent moves are made (they won't) we're looking at the exact same team next year.

If you consider what was expected out of each player:
Rios and AJ had a GREAT years
PK, Gordon, Viciedo, and ADA had average seasons (PK may be slightly above average)
Alexei was slightly below what was expected
Dunn had a great bounceback year, but was below average for what they signed him to do
Third base is just as much a black hole in September as it was in April

No one had a terrible season (ie: Dunn and Rios in 2011). This is team is exactly what they were built to be: the 8th best team in the AL.

Indeed.

amsteel
09-27-2012, 12:41 AM
I was looking at plots of the number of games above .500 for each team across the season on another web site.

It looks like the Sox have essentially been winning about the same number of games as they lose since the middle of July. The Tigers are pretty similar. But the Yankees, Orioles, Rangers, A's, and Angels have all been continuing to add more wins than losses through August and September.

The Sox are a 10 over team and have been since June, that's their ceiling. They might go on a decent streak, but will immediately regress. It's been clear for 2 months that the only way the Sox win the ALC is if Detroit is no better than 9 over.

Lip Man 1
09-27-2012, 12:41 AM
Amsteel:

With all the free agents they have I'd be very surprised if you were looking at the exact same team next year.

I'd be shocked to be honest with you.

-----------------------

It seems like forever since this club had 10 hits or more in a game doesn't it?

Lip

happydude
09-27-2012, 12:52 AM
Just because they aren't very good doesn't mean this isn't a choke. They were in first for 130+ days and didn't show up in the latter half of September. Choke plain and simple.

The issue is this team pretty much maxed out it's potential this year. Unless some big free agent moves are made (they won't) we're looking at the exact same team next year.

If you consider what was expected out of each player:
Rios and AJ had a GREAT years
PK, Gordon, Viciedo, and ADA had average seasons (PK may be slightly above average)
Alexei was slightly below what was expected
Dunn had a great bounceback year, but was below average for what they signed him to do
Third base is just as much a black hole in September as it was in April

No one had a terrible season (ie: Dunn and Rios in 2011). This is team is exactly what they were built to be: the 8th best team in the AL.

No doubt.

amsteel
09-27-2012, 12:53 AM
With all the free agents they have I'd be very surprised if you were looking at the exact same team next year.


True, but do you expect them to sign any 'impact' FAs? The sting of signing Peavy and Dunn will make management trigger shy on big deals for a while.

In fact, with so many FA opportunities (much more than I initially thought: AJ, Dayan, ADA, black hole @ 3B, & Beckham) next year could be terrible. Really ****ing terrible. I'm already picturing a nightmarish mess of over the hill guys signed to 1 year deals (a la Hudson) and never-has-been/never-will-bes (a la Lopez and Johnson)

Lip Man 1
09-27-2012, 12:54 AM
Someone (was it Tragg?) commented on how it was a bad idea to start a rookie in this situation and asked why it was done. According to Gonzo in his post game post mortum Robin made the decision in order to give Peavy an extra day of rest. He goes Thursday against Tampa Bay.

Something else I noticed, this started in Baltimore when the Sox started sliding, it seems like a lot of guys who aren't home run hitters are driving balls out of the park off the staff. Cleveland did that the last two nights.

Lip

Lip Man 1
09-27-2012, 12:58 AM
Amsteel:

De Aza is not a free agent by the way but I understand your point. I think the only guy out of their current free agents they might sign is A.J. and with the attendance issues I can't see a payroll that allows them to be very active on the free agent market.

But if Hahn takes over, there could be a new dynamic so I can't say with 100% accuracy what may happen.

Lip

Lip Man 1
09-27-2012, 01:01 AM
Good look at the Sox 'hit or miss' offense this season:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0927-side-white-sox-indians-chicago--20120927,0,4727066.story

Lip

Soxman219
09-27-2012, 01:01 AM
This is a choke. No one will convince me otherwise. You were in first for a majority of the damn season! You were given opportunity after opportunity, and still couldn't pull through. Maddening as hell.

Oh well, go Bears. But they'll probably find a way to blow it also. Every team in this city does lately anyway.

amsteel
09-27-2012, 01:01 AM
De Aza is not a free agent

Source? Cot's has him listed under a 1-year deal.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/?page_id=84

Although this from Cots:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/a/nd.edu/pub?key=tK7uKP_MP8Unu0Mx46heFcg&output=html
lists him as an FA in 2016, being arbitration eligible next year. I have no idea what any of this means.

Lip Man 1
09-27-2012, 01:03 AM
Soxman 219:

I agree, it's a choke. Everything started to slide in late August. The question is why did it happen and why does it keep happening in the second half for most of the past 10 seasons?

That's the million dollar question. If Hahn can answer that he'll be ahead of the game by a lot moving on in the future.

Lip

Lip Man 1
09-27-2012, 01:05 AM
Amsteel:

This came up a few weeks ago and a poster (don't remember who) said you can't trust Cotts and linked to a more "reliable" site that said (if I remember correctly) that he is arbitration eligible.

There were also a few other posters who confirmed it because I remember writing that I didn't know De Aza was a free agent. They said that he wasn't very quickly. I know when listing potential free agents Gonzo has also never mentioned De Aza.

Lip

kevingrt
09-27-2012, 01:05 AM
This sucks.

Not much else to say that hasn't already been said.

Soxman219
09-27-2012, 01:06 AM
Soxman 219:

I agree, it's a choke. Everything started to slide in late August. The question is why did it happen and why does it keep happening in the second half for most of the past 10 seasons?

That's the million dollar question. If Hahn can answer that he'll be ahead of the game by a lot moving on in the future.

Lip

I feel ya, it's like every 2nd half the Sox play worse. Something must be done!

CoopaLoop
09-27-2012, 01:07 AM
Source? Cot's has him listed under a 1-year deal.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/?page_id=84

Although this from Cots:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/a/nd.edu/pub?key=tK7uKP_MP8Unu0Mx46heFcg&output=html
lists him as an FA in 2016, being arbitration eligible next year. I have no idea what any of this means.

MLB Service Time: 2.139

guillensdisciple
09-27-2012, 01:07 AM
Wasn't the manager, so what else can it be?

CoopaLoop
09-27-2012, 01:13 AM
It happened because this team's "MVP" has an OBP of .329. That's not good enough to be in the top 75.

Too many power hitters who can't get on base is what we have been seeing for weeks.

Edit: That sentence may not read well. Having a lot of power hitters is not a problem. Having a bunch of low OBP guys is.

Tragg
09-27-2012, 01:18 AM
Someone (was it Tragg?) commented on how it was a bad idea to start a rookie in this situation and asked why it was done. According to Gonzo in his post game post mortum Robin made the decision in order to give Peavy an extra day of rest. He goes Thursday against Tampa Bay.
Lip

So we lost anyway. All we can do is go 1-1 on that bit of strategy.
It reminds me of when they did rotation shifting before one of the series in Detroit. We lost the game in which we shifted the pitcher to set up the Detroit series....then we got swept in Detroit.
The clowning isn't helping.

CoopaLoop
09-27-2012, 01:21 AM
Santiago had gone 5 innings of one run ball and 4 innings of no run ball in last two outings. I am ok with that move considering this rotation after Sale.

Tragg
09-27-2012, 01:22 AM
I will also point out, that this maneuver has now excluded Sale from the tie-breaker game in Detroit (assuming that it's played on that Thursday). It was set up perfectly for him to pitch it.

guillensdisciple
09-27-2012, 01:25 AM
It happened because this team's "MVP" has an OBP of .329. That's not good enough to be in the top 75.

Too many power hitters who can't get on base is what we have been seeing for weeks.

Edit: That sentence may not read well. Having a lot of power hitters is not a problem. Having a bunch of low OBP guys is.

Also we are so ****ing slow. Three hits to start, no runs. Three would score, But if we had wheels we would have had more.

kittle42
09-27-2012, 01:29 AM
I was at the game. The crowd pretty much knew it was over when the Indians first tied it at 3. people were there to get drunk - not rowdy and loud drunk, more like drowning sorrows drunk - and think about what could have been. The crowd wasn't loud because there wasn't a ton to be loud about, but I moved all around the lower deck and came across lots of people with good insights into everything that the team was doing wrong.

I guess that was "fun."

Anyway, dead team. I do not blame anyone for not throwing the cash down to go out when the team is 1-7 in its last 8 and plays like it has this month. Robin is managing like he has no experience at all (wait, he doesn't?) and the Sox are playing like the team the prognosticators we all love predicted them to be before the season.

Oh, and where are all Detroit's September callup relievers? Coming in during high leverage situations? I missed them if they did.

It's not over, because 1 game with 7 left is nothing, but do any of you see anything with this team that gives you hope other than that 1 being such a low number?

Really, the game was lost when they couldn't put more than 3 on the board when Masterson wanted to hand them the game in the first. From that point on, it was just waiting for the inevitable - which dragged out way too damn long.

By the end, there were me and maybe 4,000 others left. A sad evening.

Danielgosox38
09-27-2012, 01:32 AM
Just another crappy September for the Sox. What's new?

Noneck
09-27-2012, 01:36 AM
That's the million dollar question. If Hahn can answer that he'll be ahead of the game by a lot moving on in the future.

Lip

Lip,

I havent looked through the stats but it seems as though Sox "star" players during those years usually dont have a great second half. It seems as though if a "star" is really hot its in the 1st half not second.

Maybe its the type of "star" players the Sox have had over the those years. Some good players are money players, some are not and the Sox just didnt have those type of players.

Foulke You
09-27-2012, 01:39 AM
2008 taught me that the season is not complete until we have played the entire schedule. I'll tune in again tomorrow and hope the team I watched all season comes back to play rather than these imposters who have played the last 8 games.

On a side note, this umpire tonight had a brutal K-zone. Jones threw two beautiful sliders that locked up Santana that were called balls. He threw a similar pitch to Lillibridge in that same inning that also wasn't called.

CoopaLoop
09-27-2012, 01:45 AM
I was at the game. The crowd pretty much knew it was over when the Indians first tied it at 3. people were there to get drunk - not rowdy and loud drunk, more like drowning sorrows drunk - and think about what could have been. The crowd wasn't loud because there wasn't a ton to be loud about, but I moved all around the lower deck and came across lots of people with good insights into everything that the team was doing wrong.


Oh, and where are all Detroit's September callup relievers? Coming in during high leverage situations? I missed them if they did.


First bold: Mood was like that on twitter, facebook etc. as well.

It continues to baffle me the use of September call ups in high pressure situations. If you go with Santiago tonight, your back up plan can't be Omio****ingrosso after pitching 2.1 innings last night.

DSpivack
09-27-2012, 01:50 AM
2008 taught me that the season is not complete until we have played the entire schedule. I'll tune in again tomorrow and hope the team I watched all season comes back to play rather than these imposters who have played the last 8 games.

On a side note, this umpire tonight had a brutal K-zone. Jones threw two beautiful sliders that locked up Santana that were called balls. He threw a similar pitch to Lillibridge in that same inning that also wasn't called.

That sweep in Minnesota was one of the lowest moments I can remember as a Sox fan. I thought for sure they had blown it again in September. I was very glad to be wrong. Those 3 games in 3 days in 3 cities needing 3 wins was nuts.

BainesHOF
09-27-2012, 02:00 AM
As an aside, it was totally moronic to pinch run for Dunn. There was no reason whatsoever for that move. He was standing on second while down 6-4. All it did was remove the bat from a potential extra innings affair with no advantage gained at all.

Bingo. That move was beyond embarrassing.

No reason whatsoever to start Santiago in such a big game. The game was lost before it started. We got what we asked for there.

Soxman219
09-27-2012, 02:02 AM
That sweep in Minnesota was one of the lowest moments I can remember as a Sox fan. I thought for sure they had blown it again in September. I was very glad to be wrong. Those 3 games in 3 days in 3 cities needing 3 wins was nuts.

That was the lowest for me. That Friday morning I woke up angry as hell. It was easily noticeable in public.

Lip Man 1
09-27-2012, 02:59 AM
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something but the Sox were at home for all of the three games, three days, three different teams.

They beat Cleveland at the Cell Sunday, Detroit Monday, Minnesota Tuesday becoming the first team in MLB history to beat three different opponents in three straight days.

Lip

Dan H
09-27-2012, 03:54 AM
The Indians came to play; the White Sox didn't. The White Sox are folding like a lawn chair.

kufram
09-27-2012, 04:23 AM
It's time for...

If you can keep your head when all about you. Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for, etc.

Keep your heads boys.

LITTLE NELL
09-27-2012, 06:41 AM
Don't slit your wrists over this team coming up short, they are the 8th best team in the AL and there were too many shortcomings to expect anything more than what we got. I picked them for 86 wins and second place and it looks like that is what we will get. Yes it does hurt to lose the division when you come this close but when you have to trot out guys like Liriano and Santiago in huge games and rely on mostly rookies in your bullpen you can't expect anything better. It didn't help that Dunn, Konerko and Dunn came up short in the second half.

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2012, 07:03 AM
Our roster is top-heavy, but our best players are just not as good as Detroit's.

DeAza v. Jackson?

Dunn v. Cabrera?

Paulie v. Fielder?

Viciedo v. Delmon Young?

Even Andy Dirks is out-performing Rios, for a lot less money.

That's not a choke.

We have better fielders, but we neuter that advantage by surrendering so many walks.

That is the very definition of a choke.

doublem23
09-27-2012, 07:33 AM
I can see the Tiggers going on an 8 game tear from here...I'm thinking it's pretty well ovah.

Heh, not sure what Tiger team you've been watching

Jollyroger2
09-27-2012, 07:44 AM
The Indians came to play; the White Sox didn't. The White Sox are folding like a lawn chair.

This. Saw this coming for weeks with lackluster play against both the Tigers and crap teams like the Royals. But people here kept posting "first place in September" playing the fiddles while the city burned.

Can't even take a home series from the Indians. What a colossal choke-job...

soxfanreggie
09-27-2012, 08:10 AM
My hope is for a law of averages type performance now where we start to trend up. We now have to hope Detroit loses more than we do because it is in their hands.

Jurr
09-27-2012, 08:17 AM
Look at the schedules and be afraid.
I fear that this season will come down to the sheer fact that
the Sox could not handle KC and the Tigers could.

Jurr
09-27-2012, 08:21 AM
This. Saw this coming for weeks with lackluster play against both the Tigers and crap teams like the Royals. But people here kept posting "first place in September" playing the fiddles while the city burned.

Can't even take a home series from the Indians. What a colossal choke-job...

I don't know that this would be considered a colossal choke job.
The Sox haven't really had a stranglehold on first. Did the lead ever exceed 5 games?
This team played above its prediction all year, helped by a very mediocre division.
This was never a world beater roster. It just played well enough to lead a bad division while Detroit found itself.
This thing isn't over, and the Sox may very well play good baseball and snatch this division. To say that they choked is false. They just stopped playing better than they actually were.

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2012, 08:27 AM
What are the Sox, 6-12 against the Royals? What if we went .500, 9-9? We would still be in first place by two games. Is that really so unreasonable for us to expect?

Brian26
09-27-2012, 08:27 AM
Really, the game was lost when they couldn't put more than 3 on the board when Masterson wanted to hand them the game in the first. From that point on, it was just waiting for the inevitable - which dragged out way too damn long.

I said that when it happened. Two free runs sitting there, pk on 2nd and aj on 3rd, and the sox couldn't make it a 5-1 game, which would have loosened our pitching up and perhaps the bats too.

mahagga73
09-27-2012, 08:29 AM
Choking, slumping, team and a heartbreaking end for us fans.

Still have a chance, but it doesn't look like we're snapping out of this slide.
Shouldn't be a surprise, the Sox do this every year, suck in September. I think we all know that if they win this division it is going to be a fluke. They are choking plain and simple, even though it's not officially over yet.

mahagga73
09-27-2012, 08:31 AM
What are the Sox, 6-12 against the Royals? What if we went .500, 9-9? We would still be in first place by two games. Is that really so unreasonable for us to expect?
Those Royals sure helped us out a lot, lol. The Sox always underachive in the division .I would be interested in seeing their division records since 05 , it has got to be under .500 most years. This is where they keep on blowing it.

aryzner
09-27-2012, 08:39 AM
Our roster is top-heavy, but our best players are just not as good as Detroit's.

DeAza v. Jackson?

Dunn v. Cabrera?

Paulie v. Fielder?

Viciedo v. Delmon Young?

Even Andy Dirks is out-performing Rios, for a lot less money.

That's not a choke.

We have better fielders, but we neuter that advantage by surrendering so many walks.

That is the very definition of a choke.

Andy Dirks is not out-performing Alex Rios. For one thing, Rios can actually stay healthy.

doublem23
09-27-2012, 08:57 AM
This. Saw this coming for weeks with lackluster play against both the Tigers and crap teams like the Royals. But people here kept posting "first place in September" playing the fiddles while the city burned.

Can't even take a home series from the Indians. What a colossal choke-job...

Up until this week, the Sox have played pretty well for most of the 2nd half against everyone aside from Detroit and Kansas City. So it's not like it was unreasonable for anyone to think they could have bounced back to some form now that those two teams are off their schedule. But, oh well...

As for "colossal choke-job," eh, the Sox never really had a strangehold on the division. Their lead was never more than what? 3 games? Talk to the Braves or Red Sox last year who blew 10+ game leads in September. THAT'S a colossal choke-job. This just sucks.

tstrike2000
09-27-2012, 08:58 AM
Unfortunate, a game they could have won despite the million man march of walks. Of course, that's been the case for the better part of a week. This was one of the few games I've been to where people were streaming for the exits with a one or two run lead. Myers allowing the homer to a guy hitting .091 with no homers pretty much sealed it for many. I know the Sox are trying to rest pitchers, but I've never seen so many pitching changes in my life. The losing is a team effort. If we get the lead, we can't hold it, if we get good pitching, the offense fails, and the managing down the stretch has been poor.

It's not over, but it's starting to feel like it.

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2012, 09:00 AM
Andy Dirks is not out-performing Alex Rios. For one thing, Rios can actually stay healthy.

I am not criticizing Rios. He's our best player. He's earning his contract.

But in an admittedly smaller number of games due to injury, Dirks has a higher OPS at much less cost.

doublem23
09-27-2012, 09:01 AM
Those Royals sure helped us out a lot, lol. The Sox always underachive in the division .I would be interested in seeing their division records since 05 , it has got to be under .500 most years. This is where they keep on blowing it.

Uh, you realize the Sox are actually above .500 against the division this year, right? 35-34 against the Central, albeit with 3 division games left.

Anyways:

2012 - 35-34
2011 - 32-40
2010 - 32-40
2009 - 34-38
2008 - 44-29
2007 - 39-33
2006 - 40-36

doublem23
09-27-2012, 09:07 AM
True, but do you expect them to sign any 'impact' FAs? The sting of signing Peavy and Dunn will make management trigger shy on big deals for a while.

In fact, with so many FA opportunities (much more than I initially thought: AJ, Dayan, ADA, black hole @ 3B, & Beckham) next year could be terrible. Really ****ing terrible. I'm already picturing a nightmarish mess of over the hill guys signed to 1 year deals (a la Hudson) and never-has-been/never-will-bes (a la Lopez and Johnson)

Might want to step off the ledge their, chap, as Dayan, De Aza, and Beckham are not FA after this season.

doublem23
09-27-2012, 09:11 AM
This came up a few weeks ago and a poster (don't remember who) said you can't trust Cotts and linked to a more "reliable" site that said (if I remember correctly) that he is arbitration eligible.


Cots is an extremely reliable site (it's basically the most respected website in the business for this kind of stuff), it's just very technical and uses actual MLB CBA terminology, they expect users to have some sort of basic understanding of baseball contracts.

De Aza is signed to a 1-year-deal because he's still in his pre-arb years (you can tell that by the MLB service time he has accrued, which is listed on Cots). ALL PLAYERS PRE-ARB are signed to conditional 1-year-deals. But he's not an FA at the end of this season, his player rights are exclusively under the control of the White Sox under his pre-arb and abritration years. CBA 101 stuff, guys, come on.

Crappy carpenters blame their tools.

aryzner
09-27-2012, 09:18 AM
I'm more worried about the Sox pitching than I am the lineup for next year.

12 walks? Really?


How do you feel about signing Brandon McCarthy next year to replace Liriano? (If he can stay healthy?)

GABP
09-27-2012, 09:18 AM
I don't know that this would be considered a colossal choke job.
The Sox haven't really had a stranglehold on first. Did the lead ever exceed 5 games?
This team played above its prediction all year, helped by a very mediocre division.
This was never a world beater roster. It just played well enough to lead a bad division while Detroit found itself.
This thing isn't over, and the Sox may very well play good baseball and snatch this division. To say that they choked is false. They just stopped playing better than they actually were.

How is this not a colossal choke job? After beating the Tigers, all they had to do is go .500 and they would be fine. They're 1-7 since then.

doublem23
09-27-2012, 09:23 AM
I was at the game. The crowd pretty much knew it was over when the Indians first tied it at 3. people were there to get drunk - not rowdy and loud drunk, more like drowning sorrows drunk - and think about what could have been. The crowd wasn't loud because there wasn't a ton to be loud about, but I moved all around the lower deck and came across lots of people with good insights into everything that the team was doing wrong.

I've got tickets to the next three games, sounds like my kind of party.

:whiner:

Bucky F. Dent
09-27-2012, 09:26 AM
I Still Believe!!!!!

Jerko
09-27-2012, 09:39 AM
Holy Cow, we walked 12 guys tonight. 12 guys in a bad lineup. This is just being too scared to play good baseball. 12 walks is pathetic, spineless pitching.

Those walks were like getting your fingernails pulled out one at a time. Pitch to these ****in guys. If you start *****footing around with the guys that the Indians are throwing out there, what's gonna happen if they make the playoffs? I don't think we can carry 27 pitchers (one for each batter). Just play your game boys, and hopefully the Tigers road suckiness will help us out at the end here.

October26
09-27-2012, 09:52 AM
It's time for...

If you can keep your head when all about you. Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for, etc.

Keep your heads boys.


:thumbsup: to your statement in bold and to one of my all-time favorite poems which certainly seems to fit the urgency of the hour. My brain interprets the situation and confirms that the Sox are in trouble while my heart screams: ‘Hold on!


If—BY RUDYARD KIPLING

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

Chez
09-27-2012, 09:54 AM
I know it's fashionable for fans to now say that they saw this coming and that this team was never more than, at best, a tad above average blah , blah blah. But, this slide surprises me. The team has been resilient and played smart, good baseball all year long -- until September.

If I had to vote on whether this was either a choke or running out of gas, I'd choose the latter (if it matters).

I'm hoping the team has one more 7 game spurt left in them. It would be really disappointing to end what had been a fun season on such a sour note. As between the Sox and Detroit, I'm not sure we are the better team. But the better team frequently doesn't win. Let's hang in there for one more week.

johnnyg83
09-27-2012, 10:00 AM
If they do lose the division, there is no doubt this is a choke job. Up 3 with 16 left has got to be a franchise record ... maybe even a city record.

I've resigned myself to losing the division. The loss on Thursday against KC when they blew the 3-0 lead and had two baserunning mistakes inside 3rd base was the dagger. They've not played well since.

"Out of gas" is just a nice way of saying "choke."

Huisj
09-27-2012, 10:01 AM
First bold: Mood was like that on twitter, facebook etc. as well.

It continues to baffle me the use of September call ups in high pressure situations. If you go with Santiago tonight, your back up plan can't be Omio****ingrosso after pitching 2.1 innings last night.

The Omogrosso use last night was puzzling after throwing the night before. The Quintana use the other night was too coming just a couple days after starting. I'm not sure I understand a lot of the bullpen usage lately, but when the starters are consistently unable to go deep into games, it wears out the bullpen too.

For the most part, the bullpen has pitched a lot better than the rotation lately, not that it's really helped; the general trend lately seems to be that the starters pitch mediocre and don't make it much past 5 innings (if even that far), and then the bullpen keeps it just close enough for the Sox to not lose by a lot. It makes for really depressing baseball to watch.

Detroit's in a much different position. They have enough good deep performances by their starters (Verlander's 8 innings the other night, Sanchez' complete game, Fister's complete game last week, etc.) that when the shakier parts of their rotation struggle, like Porcello last night or Smily a few days ago, they can go through normal guys instead of a bunch of rookies, because the normal guys are rested. Plus it helps that they just got Albuquerque off the DL for the first time all year, and he hasn't given up a run yet in 11.2 innings.

guillensdisciple
09-27-2012, 10:12 AM
I know it's fashionable for fans to now say that they saw this coming and that this team was never more than, at best, a tad above average blah , blah blah. But, this slide surprises me. The team has been resilient and played smart, good baseball all year long -- until September.

If I had to vote on whether this was either a choke or running out of gas, I'd choose the latter (if it matters).

I'm hoping the team has one more 7 game spurt left in them. It would be really disappointing to end what had been a fun season on such a sour note. As between the Sox and Detroit, I'm not sure we are the better team. But the better team frequently doesn't win. Let's hang in there for one more week.

I think a lot of us expected it because of prior sox teams. This just seems to be a sox "thing" in September. The pessimists shouted it out loud, the in betweeners( me) stayed quiet and hoped for the best while having that constant pang o " it's happening again", and the optimists are still optimistic and will continue to be that way.

Unfortunately, there are a lot more pessimistic people on this board who have seen this story and know what to expect. So that " told you so" element always pops up too.

I don't know, entering September I hoped that I would see something different under Ventura. But I have not, it's actually exactly the same since I can remember. If this team can find a way to disappoint you, it will. The sox have an uncanny way of keeping you in it until the very last second, and then either dropping the hammer on you or giving you immeasurable joy. It's never easy with them, and the immeasurable joy is a rarity.

amsteel
09-27-2012, 10:16 AM
Might want to step off the ledge their, chap, as Dayan, De Aza, and Beckham are not FA after this season.

Source, chap? Everything I've looked up has their contract ending in 2012, so I'm gonna assume their arbitration eligible, but I can't find anything definitive.

In that case we're keeping guys that played exactly the way they were supposed to and got us 86ish wins.The I was making was the every did exactly what they were expected to do...and the team finished in the middle of the pack.

doublem23
09-27-2012, 10:20 AM
Source, chap? Everything I've looked up has their contract ending in 2012, so I'm gonna assume their arbitration eligible, but I can't find anything definitive.

Yes, their contracts end in 2012, the the case of De Aza and Beckham it's because they're operating under the usual, 1-year pre-Arb deals.

You can clearly see here that De Aza and Beckham will be entering the 1st of their Arbitration years here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Ah4PW47PiAi-dG9HanhMTzc1YkJfUnZEVWN1ek9KOEE&output=html

Dayan is a special case since he was given an MLB contract from the start, but seeing as he entered this season with only 0.123 years of MLB service, I don't see how he could possibly make up the several years of service time he'd need to be an FA at the end of the season.

kittle42
09-27-2012, 10:26 AM
My hope is for a law of averages type performance now where we start to trend up. We now have to hope Detroit loses more than we do because it is in their hands.

But what you are seeing is quite possibly the law of averages already - the trend down to the real level of this team.

kittle42
09-27-2012, 10:32 AM
I'm more worried about the Sox pitching than I am the lineup for next year.

12 walks? Really?

I wouldn't worry about it - many of those guys in the pen shouldn't be here in 2013.

kittle42
09-27-2012, 10:33 AM
I've got tickets to the next three games, sounds like my kind of party.

:whiner:

It was truly a crowd just waiting for the loss but hoping they were wrong. They weren't.

kittle42
09-27-2012, 10:34 AM
I don't know, entering September I hoped that I would see something different under Ventura. But I have not, it's actually exactly the same since I can remember. If this team can find a way to disappoint you, it will.

Ventura is responsible himself for a good deal of that disappointment.

amsteel
09-27-2012, 10:53 AM
I wouldn't worry about it - many of those guys in the pen shouldn't be here in 2013.

Eh, there are some guys with talent: Jones, Veal, Reed (not as a closer) that will be cheap and I would have no problem seeing them next year.

The kids in the bullpen actually regressed way less than I thought. I figured after a while their scouting reports would get out and they'd be 'figured out'. That didn't seem so much the case.

However it's not soon enough the Humber and Liriano are put in a box and shipped to Kamchatka.

Huisj
09-27-2012, 10:55 AM
Maybe we need a new thread to start imagining how the roster might be pieced together for next spring. Or is that basically conceding that the season is over because the Sox fell a game behind?

kittle42
09-27-2012, 10:58 AM
Maybe we need a new thread to start imagining how the roster might be pieced together for next spring. Or is that basically conceding that the season is over because the Sox fell a game behind?

I've always thought those threads tend to overemphasize how many guys will be replaced by guys already within the organization.

Since we have little organizational depth, we'd be doing little but speculating on free agents.

tstrike2000
09-27-2012, 11:02 AM
Eh, there are some guys with talent: Jones, Veal, Reed (not as a closer) that will be cheap and I would have no problem seeing them next year.

The kids in the bullpen actually regressed way less than I thought. I figured after a while their scouting reports would get out and they'd be 'figured out'. That didn't seem so much the case.

However it's not soon enough the Humber and Liriano are put in a box and shipped to Kamchatka.

Liriano, Humber, Septimo, and Myers can go. It's been too many times where Myers gives up a rocket which looks even worse in a hitter's ballpark. Plus, he can't be used at all against teams like Detroit and especially KC. I'm assuming many want to see Thornton gone as well, though he was good for a few weeks. Crain can be good again if his health ever gets in check.

SCCWS
09-27-2012, 11:04 AM
Soxman 219:

I agree, it's a choke. Everything started to slide in late August. The question is why did it happen and why does it keep happening in the second half for most of the past 10 seasons?

That's the million dollar question. If Hahn can answer that he'll be ahead of the game by a lot moving on in the future.

Lip

I don't agree it is a choke. This has been a continual slide since the All Star game:

Paul Konerko-- Pre-All Star .329 Post .261== .68 point drop
Alex Rios--- .318 .276== .42 point drop

That is your number 4 and 5 hitters. A huge void in the middle of the lineup. Now to compound that Youk dropped .56 points although in fairness most of his pre time was in Boston. Beckham has dropped .18 points , AJ .10 .
The problem you have offensively is that 2 key hitters took huge drops since the All Star game. But no one had great second half numbers to compensate. If Dunn and Konerko had big 2nd halfs, we would probably still be in 1st. In general everyone was about the same or dropped in 2nd half and the 4/5 hitters really tanked.

Jurr
09-27-2012, 11:04 AM
How is this not a colossal choke job? After beating the Tigers, all they had to do is go .500 and they would be fine. They're 1-7 since then.

There are a lot of good takes on this thread, and most have to do with the law of averages. I whole heartedly agree.

You have a team that at the beginning of the year was deemed a troubled one with a rookie manager (on ANY level). The entire bullpen is learning on the job.

The team needed big production from Rios and Dunn to even have a chance at competence. Well, we got that production, and 82 wins so far says "competence".

When you have this much youth, inconsistency is expected. This team has been very streaky. Now, Detroit is built to win NOW, and they are coming on at the right time. If the Sox hold them off, Ventura deserves a trophy on his mantle.

If they don't, well, the youngsters played a good season and exceeded expectations, which bodes well for the future.

I for one did not expect to be discussing meaningful baseball with a week left.

Maybe the team rallies and gets hot. That would be awesome.
Expecting it? Not really.

white sox bill
09-27-2012, 11:19 AM
Is this a choke? Nows a good time to review the Heimlick manuever for all

SOXSINCE'70
09-27-2012, 11:20 AM
Really really hoping I use the playoff tix I got in the mail today... but I hear Jim Mora`s voice in my head saying "Playoffs??".

I'm hearing the second part of that quote:

"I just hope we can win another game.":(:

SCCWS
09-27-2012, 11:22 AM
Myers gives up a rocket which looks even worse in a hitter's ballpark. Plus, he can't be used at all against teams like Detroit and especially KC..

What do you base that on??? Myers appeared in 4 games against Detroit and he only allowed 1 hit and no runs.

SOXSINCE'70
09-27-2012, 11:25 AM
What are the Sox, 6-12 against the Royals? What if we went .500, 9-9? We would still be in first place by two games. Is that really so unreasonable for us to expect?

And if they'd won at least 3 more games from the Tiggers,they would have been 9-9 against them as well. If,if,if...:(:

RedHeadPaleHoser
09-27-2012, 11:27 AM
It does suck, but at the same time a win tonight and a Tigers loss ties us again for 1st.

It's not likely, but I'm holding out hope they snap out if it now that they're chasing. Stranger things have happened.

SephClone89
09-27-2012, 11:31 AM
Is this a choke? Nows a good time to review the Heimlick manuever for all

No. Largest lead was 3 games.

CHISOXFAN13
09-27-2012, 11:35 AM
No. Largest lead was 3 games.

Not about the size of the lead for me.

The Sox held a three game cushion nine days ago and lost four games in the standings since.

doublem23
09-27-2012, 11:37 AM
Not about the size of the lead for me.

The Sox held a three game cushion nine days ago and lost four games in the standings since.

You can call it choke or whatever, it really doesn't matter, it's all really meaningless rhetoric anyway. I think people are taking exception to the term "colossal" or "epic" or whatever choke job. The Sox never had a real hold on this division, plenty of teams in baseball history that have lead a division by 3 games have gone on to bow out. This will sting us, but nobody is going to put the Sox in the category of say, the '69 Cubs, '64 Phillies, or '11 Red Sox and Braves.

kobo
09-27-2012, 11:46 AM
It does suck, but at the same time a win tonight and a Tigers loss ties us again for 1st.

It's not likely, but I'm holding out hope they snap out if it now that they're chasing. Stranger things have happened.
Why not likely? What has Detroit done to make anyone think that they are going to now walk away with the division? Detroit plays their last 6 games on the road. Granted, those games are against the Twins and Royals, but Detroit is also 7 games below .500 on the road.

This isn't over yet. It's going to come down to the last weekend.

tstrike2000
09-27-2012, 11:47 AM
What do you base that on??? Myers appeared in 4 games against Detroit and he only allowed 1 hit and no runs.

Well, then I'm getting him mixed up with KC, with whom he has a 21.00 ERA against, or something in that neighborhood.

doublem23
09-27-2012, 11:48 AM
Why not likely? What has Detroit done to make anyone think that they are going to now walk away with the division? Detroit plays their last 6 games on the road. Granted, those games are against the Twins and Royals, but Detroit is also 7 games below .500 on the road.

This isn't over yet. It's going to come down to the last weekend.

I hear you, but it's hard to find any sort of optimism about a team that's just gone 1-7 over the last week and pissed away a 3-game lead in the standings. Reall at this point, it feels like the Tigers could finish the year 0-7 and they'd probably still win the division.

This sucks.

amsteel
09-27-2012, 11:49 AM
Not about the size of the lead for me.

The Sox held a three game cushion nine days ago and lost four games in the standings since.

It's not the size of the lead, it's how they used it.
\nervously waits for laugh track...

For 4 months they were better than Detroit and couldn't maintain that when it mattered, that's what rubs me the wrong way.

doublem23
09-27-2012, 11:57 AM
For 4 months they were better than Detroit and couldn't maintain that when it mattered, that's what rubs me the wrong way.

Yeah, what pisses me most off about this is that the Tigers have been generally ****ty for the entire season. Really, it's not even like they're playing exceptionally good baseball now. They got swept in a doubleheader by the Twins 4 days ago. THE TWINS. The worst team in the American League. And we can't hold them off.

It'd be one thing if the Tigers got red hot and just passed us, as a lot of people sort of expected for most of the summer. There's not much you can do when another team just clicks into 5th gear. Sometimes, **** happens. But they're pissing away the division to a team that's going to win a max of what? 86 games this year? That's what so disheartening about this. Detroit's been begging the Sox to take the Central all summer and they never did.

Our playoff odds have dropped over 50% since Monday's win. What a ****ing week.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/odds/

harwar
09-27-2012, 11:57 AM
My gut told me that they would turn this thing around when they came home .. i just wish that my gut would keep it's big mouth shut! .. I have been expecting us and the tigers to change places in 1st for the last 2 months, but it didn't happen .. now we seem to be in a bad spot here, so let's see .. we have to play a 4 spot with the hottest team in baseball right now, while the tigers are playing the royals (who seem to be showing their true colors) and the twins (one of the worst teams in the AL) .. there's optimism and then there's facing ****ing reality, and reality is indeed rearing it's ugly head at me .. i've gone from looking forward to watching to dreading it .. during last nights game it occurred to me, are these guys just out of gas, have they truly just given up, or were they, in reality, never all that good to begin with, but i just never saw it .. anyway, i think that they will all just be relieved when the season is finally over ..

kobo
09-27-2012, 12:00 PM
I hear you, but it's hard to find any sort of optimism about a team that's just gone 1-7 over the last week and pissed away a 3-game lead in the standings. Reall at this point, it feels like the Tigers could finish the year 0-7 and they'd probably still win the division.

This sucks.
I get that, guess the eternal optimist in me is just holding on to the hope that the Sox could still win this thing.

Jurr
09-27-2012, 12:16 PM
You can call it choke or whatever, it really doesn't matter, it's all really meaningless rhetoric anyway. I think people are taking exception to the term "colossal" or "epic" or whatever choke job. The Sox never had a real hold on this division, plenty of teams in baseball history that have lead a division by 3 games have gone on to bow out. This will sting us, but nobody is going to put the Sox in the category of say, the '69 Cubs, '64 Phillies, or '11 Red Sox and Braves.

Yeah, exactly. This team overachieved. Period. If they come back, defy the scheduling gods, and win the division, they deserve medals.

Lip Man 1
09-27-2012, 12:22 PM
This and that:

I found it very ironic that Peavy is quoted in the papers today talking about how he likes the Sox chances in the post season the day after they drop out of first, have lost seven of eight and are free falling. He gets his chance tonight to beat someone not named Minnesota at least...

The Sox are 8-for-65 over the last nine games with runners in scoring position. When the heat's on they can't get it done apparently.

I was contacted last night by reporter Michael Puente of WBEZ radio (Chicago NPR) he is interviewing me this morning as part of a piece they are doing on the Sox attendance issues. It's cool that he asked but I wish it was for a more positive subject.

Nothing to do but play it out and hope for the best. The Sox put themselves in this position, now they not only have to win, but Detroit has to lose.

Scherzer by the way is having his start skipped tomorrow according to ESPN.com

Lip

JB98
09-27-2012, 01:31 PM
Yeah, what pisses me most off about this is that the Tigers have been generally ****ty for the entire season. Really, it's not even like they're playing exceptionally good baseball now. They got swept in a doubleheader by the Twins 4 days ago. THE TWINS. The worst team in the American League. And we can't hold them off.

It'd be one thing if the Tigers got red hot and just passed us, as a lot of people sort of expected for most of the summer. There's not much you can do when another team just clicks into 5th gear. Sometimes, **** happens. But they're pissing away the division to a team that's going to win a max of what? 86 games this year? That's what so disheartening about this. Detroit's been begging the Sox to take the Central all summer and they never did.

Our playoff odds have dropped over 50% since Monday's win. What a ****ing week.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/odds/


That's why I referred to this as a "choke." Detroit isn't winning the division so much as the Sox are losing it.

But really, what does it matter what people call it? Slump, choke, collapse, whatever, the moral of the story is the Sox let a three-game lead slip away in a week and now they're in deep ****.

thomas35forever
09-27-2012, 01:45 PM
It's all for naught without the playoffs, says Coop.
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/09/27/cooper-without-the-playoffs-it-will-all-be-for-naught/

SCCWS
09-27-2012, 01:51 PM
Well said Coop. By the way, you may be picking up your pink slip if things don't turn around.

Noneck
09-27-2012, 01:53 PM
Lip, When will interview be aired?

kittle42
09-27-2012, 01:54 PM
Surprised Coop has time to talk when he needs to be busy getting Brian Omogrosso prepared for a third consecutive appearance.

harwar
09-27-2012, 02:04 PM
Surprised Coop has time to talk when he needs to be busy getting Brian Omogrosso prepared for a third consecutive appearance.

and making sure that there's plenty of margaritas after the game

tstrike2000
09-27-2012, 02:12 PM
Well said Coop. By the way, you may be picking up your pink slip if things don't turn around.

The amount of walks the Sox pitching staff has had is very alarming, but Coop is not going anywhere. He's still regarded as one of the better pitching coaches around.

amsteel
09-27-2012, 02:14 PM
Sox K/BB ratio in the last 7 games: 1.54, season average-2.46
Detroit? 8.67, season average-3.10

Lip Man 1
09-27-2012, 02:14 PM
Noneck:

I was told they want to air it tomorrow. The reporter Michael Puenta apparently also has an afternoon show which he told me part of it will be used to discuss this issue.

Here is his and the station's info. You might want to check with him for specifics:

Michael Puente| Reporter, WBEZ 91.5 FM Chicago Public Media
Twitter:@MikePuenteNews
WBEZ at Navy Pier | 848 East Grand Avenue | Chicago, Illinois 60611 | Front Desk 312.948-4600 | Newsroom 312.948-4650;
Listen online athttp://www.wbez.org/ (http://www.wbez.org/)


Lip

Nellie_Fox
09-27-2012, 02:20 PM
That's why I referred to this as a "choke." Detroit isn't winning the division so much as the Sox are losing it.

But really, what does it matter what people call it? Slump, choke, collapse, whatever, the moral of the story is the Sox let a three-game lead slip away in a week and now they're in deep ****.The difference is that a choke is all mental; a slump or collapse can be physical.

Hitmen77
09-27-2012, 02:20 PM
The Sox look like their toast. They've really fallen off a cliff after being in the drivers seat a week ago.

Lip, I think the Sox collapse and your interview today about attendance issues are well timed. I think this end-of-season collapse is Exhibit A of why the stadium isn't packed to the rafters every night. No, people didn't know the Sox were going to choke away their lead this year, but there is a history of it that has killed fan interest. 2009 and 2010 both saw seasons where the Sox were in 1st place at some point in the 2nd half only to have them totally fall apart later in the season. Last year was just a total "ALL IN!" bust of a team that quit on the season from the manager down. Just being good enough to win between 80 and 85 games year in and year out isn't going to cut it for this franchise in this market.

Maybe, someday, the Sox will use some approach to building a consistent pennant contender other than the "contend on the fly" approach of the KW-era. There are some things KW does very well (like finding scrap heap players). But, this organization lacks depth and it really shows over the long haul of the season.

Lip Man 1
09-27-2012, 02:21 PM
Nellie:

I think there is both to this latest situation. I think there are physical issues but I also think it has gotten into their heads.

Lip

Nellie_Fox
09-27-2012, 02:23 PM
Nellie:

I think there is both to this latest situation. I think there are physical issues but I also think it has gotten into their heads.

LipI don't like to play amateur psychologist from a distance. I think one would need to be in the clubhouse on a day-to-day basis to know what their mental attitude is.

russ99
09-27-2012, 02:32 PM
The amount of walks the Sox pitching staff has had is very alarming, but Coop is not going anywhere. He's still regarded as one of the better pitching coaches around.

I doubt Coop is going anywhere, but the way he's inserted himself in pitching change decisions has to stop. I'm sure Robin has leaned on him too hard due to inexperience early in the year, and recently because it worked earlier.

Robin has to know his pitchers and the situation well enough to make that call, even if it's at odds with what Coop wants. I'd also like to see a return to bullpen roles next year, since these rapid fire changes aren't helping our relievers get into any kind of rhythm.

kittle42
09-27-2012, 02:34 PM
The Sox look like their toast.

Saw them last night. They still looked pretty human to me, and barely buttered. That being said, I don't have any facts to back up what the players' pieces of toast look like. :tongue:

But, yes, they look dead and defeated. Limp. Tired. Fed up.

tstrike2000
09-27-2012, 02:39 PM
I doubt Coop is going anywhere, but the way he's inserted himself in pitching change decisions has to stop. I'm sure Robin has leaned on him too hard due to inexperience early in the year, and recently because it worked earlier.

Robin has to know his pitchers well enough to make that call, even if it's at odds with what Coop wants. I'd also like to see are return to bullpen roles next year, since these rapid fire changes aren't helping our relievers get into any kind of rhythm.

I guess that's my question then. Who's making the decision to average six pitchers a game? Robin, Coop or both?

Last night, I felt like I was in the Twilight Zone for a while. It was two walks, a hit, a pitching change, a new pitcher warming, and a lady near us coming up the steps. Seemed like that happened roughly every inning third through seventh. By the fourth pitcher my friend asked me if I was also having deja vu, especially since the same lady was coming up the steps about a fourth time.

kobo
09-27-2012, 02:41 PM
Well said Coop. By the way, you may be picking up your pink slip if things don't turn around.
:rolling:

JB98
09-27-2012, 02:43 PM
I guess that's my question then. Who's making the decision to average six pitchers a game? Robin, Coop or both?

Last night, I felt like I was in the Twilight Zone for a while. It was two walks, a hit, a pitching change, a new pitcher warming, and a lady near us coming up the steps. Seemed like that happened roughly every inning third through seventh. By the fourth pitcher my friend asked me if I was also having deja vu, especially since the same lady was coming up the steps about a fourth time.

Maybe she kept going down to the field to lobby for an opportunity to pitch. She's probably a better LOOGY than Septimo.

soltrain21
09-27-2012, 02:46 PM
Saw them last night. They still looked pretty human to me, and barely buttered. That being said, I don't have any facts to back up what the players' pieces of toast look like. :tongue:

But, yes, they look dead and defeated. Limp. Tired. Fed up.


They were so excited, so excited. So...scared.

Nellie_Fox
09-27-2012, 02:48 PM
I really think the Sox would have been better off if there was no such thing as September callups. There's no reason to be running 8, 9 pitchers out there every night, especially pitchers who weren't good enough to be on the 25 man roster before September. The old saying was that if you go to the bullpen often enough, you're going to find the guy who just doesn't have it that day. If you make a change, and the guy you bring in is getting people out, why make another change just for "matchups?"

kittle42
09-27-2012, 02:53 PM
They were so excited, so excited. So...scared.

Well done!

tstrike2000
09-27-2012, 03:01 PM
Maybe she kept going down to the field to lobby for an opportunity to pitch. She's probably a better LOOGY than Septimo.

True and someone said Septimo was warming up at some point and I was just imagining Hafner and the one good shoulder he has left taking him yard.

kittle42
09-27-2012, 03:06 PM
I really think the Sox would have been better off if there was no such thing as September callups. There's no reason to be running 8, 9 pitchers out there every night, especially pitchers who weren't good enough to be on the 25 man roster before September. The old saying was that if you go to the bullpen often enough, you're going to find the guy who just doesn't have it that day. If you make a change, and the guy you bring in is getting people out, why make another change just for "matchups?"

I was thinking the same thing during the game. I mean, if this same game had happened a month ago, we'd have had to go to Jones, Crain or someone earlier instead of the stiffs. I don't know why we wouldn't treat it the same way here - other contending teams do.

Tragg
09-27-2012, 03:07 PM
I was thinking the same thing during the game. I mean, if this same game had happened a month ago, we'd have had to go to Jones, Crain or someone earlier instead of the stiffs. I don't know why we wouldn't treat it the same way here - other contending teams do.

That's the thing - if we are in a pickle in the 6th inning, use our best relievers then. 6th inning runs count the same as 9th.

JB98
09-27-2012, 03:46 PM
I really think the Sox would have been better off if there was no such thing as September callups. There's no reason to be running 8, 9 pitchers out there every night, especially pitchers who weren't good enough to be on the 25 man roster before September. The old saying was that if you go to the bullpen often enough, you're going to find the guy who just doesn't have it that day. If you make a change, and the guy you bring in is getting people out, why make another change just for "matchups?"

I agree. I think some lesser players have been overexposed here in September, especially pitchers.

I've made several posts about the Sox doing things out of character this month. Our manager is guilty of putting guys in unfamiliar situations. Asking Youkilis to bunt against Detroit is one example. Starting Santiago in last night's game is another. Pitchers who spent the majority of the season in Charlotte have been asked to get critical outs. I wouldn't go to that well too often.

From my perspective, Ventura has managed differently in September than he did from April-August. His methods the first five months of the season were working. The expanded roster has caused him to change some strategies, and that has worked against the Sox more often than not.

Huisj
09-27-2012, 04:17 PM
I agree. I think some lesser players have been overexposed here in September, especially pitchers.

I've made several posts about the Sox doing things out of character this month. Our manager is guilty of putting guys in unfamiliar situations. Asking Youkilis to bunt against Detroit is one example. Starting Santiago in last night's game is another. Pitchers who spent the majority of the season in Charlotte have been asked to get critical outs. I wouldn't go to that well too often.

From my perspective, Ventura has managed differently in September than he did from April-August. His methods the first five months of the season were working. The expanded roster has caused him to change some strategies, and that has worked against the Sox more often than not.

You ever get the feeling that they're just drawing names out of a hat when they decide who to get up and throwing in the bullpen?

Harry Chappas
09-27-2012, 05:38 PM
I agree. I think some lesser players have been overexposed here in September, especially pitchers.

I've made several posts about the Sox doing things out of character this month. Our manager is guilty of putting guys in unfamiliar situations. Asking Youkilis to bunt against Detroit is one example. Starting Santiago in last night's game is another. Pitchers who spent the majority of the season in Charlotte have been asked to get critical outs. I wouldn't go to that well too often.

From my perspective, Ventura has managed differently in September than he did from April-August. His methods the first five months of the season were working. The expanded roster has caused him to change some strategies, and that has worked against the Sox more often than not.

I rarely pick up the paper or listen to the post-game interviews but has anyone in the media asked either Ventura or Cooper about their over-reliance on AAA call-ups during the home stretch? It's gotten to the point where it's just...bizarre. I can't figure out if it's Ventura's inexperience showing or if Cooper is calling the shots and over-thinking things. Maybe it's a little of both.

kobo
09-27-2012, 06:44 PM
I agree. I think some lesser players have been overexposed here in September, especially pitchers.

I've made several posts about the Sox doing things out of character this month. Our manager is guilty of putting guys in unfamiliar situations. Asking Youkilis to bunt against Detroit is one example. Starting Santiago in last night's game is another. Pitchers who spent the majority of the season in Charlotte have been asked to get critical outs. I wouldn't go to that well too often.

From my perspective, Ventura has managed differently in September than he did from April-August. His methods the first five months of the season were working. The expanded roster has caused him to change some strategies, and that has worked against the Sox more often than not.
It's all KW's fault!! We all know Robin is just his puppet!!

Lip Man 1
09-27-2012, 06:49 PM
JB / Nellie:

It's pretty clear based on what you see as well as Robin's own words that he is a percentage guy, so I wouldn't be surprised if he removed a pitcher who was getting outs in favor of another pitcher.

That's his way for right or wrong.

In that respect he's just like Ozzie.

Lip

mahagga73
09-28-2012, 10:17 AM
Uh, you realize the Sox are actually above .500 against the division this year, right? 35-34 against the Central, albeit with 3 division games left.

Anyways:

2012 - 35-34
2011 - 32-40
2010 - 32-40
2009 - 34-38
2008 - 44-29
2007 - 39-33
2006 - 40-36
They play three horrendous teams in this division , Royals, Twins, Indians, they ought to be 12-15 games to the positive. The Sox are 20 plus under .500 the last three years against not the greatest division in the league, thanks for proving my point.

mahagga73
09-28-2012, 10:18 AM
JB / Nellie:

It's pretty clear based on what you see as well as Robin's own words that he is a percentage guy, so I wouldn't be surprised if he removed a pitcher who was getting outs in favor of another pitcher.

That's his way for right or wrong.

In that respect he's just like Ozzie.

Lip
I like the fact he is yanking these guys that can't throw strikes real quick . I respect that. I can tell by the look on Robin's face and his demeanor he is dying a thousand deaths just like us fans.

mahagga73
09-28-2012, 10:21 AM
The amount of walks the Sox pitching staff has had is very alarming, but Coop is not going anywhere. He's still regarded as one of the better pitching coaches around.
No way, this staff has done better than can be expected with all the rookies and such. The Chokejob position players that cannot buy a hit with a runner in scoring position have sunk the ship.

doublem23
09-28-2012, 10:28 AM
They play three horrendous teams in this division , Royals, Twins, Indians, they ought to be 12-15 games to the positive. The Sox are 20 plus under .500 the last three years against not the greatest division in the league, thanks for proving my point.

I don't know, you claim the Sox underachieve, it's possible that this is just the best they're capable of.

mahagga73
09-30-2012, 10:52 AM
I don't know, you claim the Sox underachieve, it's possible that this is just the best they're capable of.
I would be with you on that if it wasn't for the alarming disparity between what they did earlier and what they are doing now with RISP. When you go from league leaders to .120, something is going on , nothing swings bad that fast.