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View Full Version : *Official* Go Cy Chen! Postgame Thread


thomas35forever
09-25-2012, 03:45 PM
Waste of an afternoon.

Frater Perdurabo
09-25-2012, 03:45 PM
Three solo shots won't cut it

amsteel
09-25-2012, 03:45 PM
Lost 6 of 7

DonnieDarko
09-25-2012, 03:46 PM
Three solo shots won't cut it

Not when ****ing Liriano is on the mound, anyway.

dwitt76
09-25-2012, 03:46 PM
Do we have any more games left with the twins?

Bucky F. Dent
09-25-2012, 03:46 PM
Isn't Perez the Indians pitcher that melted down earlier in the year in a save situation against the Tigers and gave up like five runs with two outs in the ninth????

Where's the equal time, Perez???

CHISOXFAN13
09-25-2012, 03:47 PM
A lousy hitter who blows the game with bad defense.

Thanks. Gordon. And **** liriano for not being able to pitch over it.

johnnyg83
09-25-2012, 03:47 PM
That's why you don't ****ing walk Brent .192 Lillibridge EVER!

kittle42
09-25-2012, 03:47 PM
Sucky offense is sucky.

Go, Royals.

harwar
09-25-2012, 03:48 PM
The sun came out right at the end there, making it hard for Beckham to see, heh and i thought god was on our side .. I'm beginning to hate solo home runs .. ah well, we face Masterson tomorrow and he's very hittable .. the guys need to get their second wind ..

soxnut1018
09-25-2012, 03:48 PM
After back to back walks, why are you swinging at the first pitch?

KenBerryGrab
09-25-2012, 03:49 PM
Running into outs early didn't help.

Nellie_Fox
09-25-2012, 03:49 PM
Is it humanly possible to score without hitting a home run?

soltrain21
09-25-2012, 03:49 PM
I'm EXHAUSTED hearing about how tired these guys are.

Aesero
09-25-2012, 03:50 PM
After back to back walks, why are you swinging at the first pitch?
He threw a first pitch fastball right down the middle to alexei. He was looking fastball.

Bleh game

Dick Allen
09-25-2012, 03:50 PM
Can this ******* team ever score any ******* runs with 2 ******* outs?!! The opponents do it all the time!! ****!!!:angry:

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2012, 03:50 PM
Had to sweep this series.

Back to scoreboard watching. Your 2012 White Sox slogan.

thomas35forever
09-25-2012, 03:51 PM
Had to sweep this series.

Back to scoreboard watching. Your 2012 White Sox slogan.
We had to? We'll still be tied for first at worst after tonight.

eriqjaffe
09-25-2012, 03:51 PM
Not when ****ing Liriano is on the mound, anyway.He's a free agent after this season, right? I sure hope so. He's useless.

kittle42
09-25-2012, 03:52 PM
Had to sweep this series.

No.

amsteel
09-25-2012, 03:52 PM
4.61 runs/game in 2012
4.16 runs/game in September
2.28 runs/game in the last week

Definition of choke

tstrike2000
09-25-2012, 03:52 PM
Would be nice to actually have someone on base before jacking one.

harwar
09-25-2012, 03:53 PM
Can this ******* team ever score any ******* runs with 2 ******* outs?!! The opponents do it all the time!! ****!!!:angry:

Man, it wasn't all that long ago that we were leading the AL in that category .. seems like long time ago though

thomas35forever
09-25-2012, 03:54 PM
We're running out of caps to tip.

cws05champ
09-25-2012, 03:55 PM
You don't deserve to win this game or the division if you can't muster more than two solo shots off a young pitcher like Kluber.

Go KC!!!

guillensdisciple
09-25-2012, 03:58 PM
This team is the definition of ****ing home run or nothing.

Why in the fkying **** is beckham swinging at the first pitch when Perez can't throw a strike. This is aggravating.

Just 8 more games left of this bull**** and then it's over. Even if we make the playoffs I'm okay with it. This won' drive me crazy. But Jesus, you gotta be kidding me, we can't score with people on base, only if there is a home run with no one on is it a possibility.

Only way we're winning this thing is if dumbass ****ing Detroit continue to gift us the division,

FielderJones
09-25-2012, 03:59 PM
You don't deserve to win this game or the division if you can't muster more than two solo shots off a young pitcher like Kluber.

Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

aryzner
09-25-2012, 04:00 PM
You don't deserve to win this game or the division if you can't muster more than two solo shots off a young pitcher like Kluber.

Go KC!!!

Neither team deserves to win the division, honestly.

Somebody has to, though.

You take it.

No you take it.

No I insist, I don't want it.

Oh, okay, I'll take it.

You know what? I changed my mind. I'll take it.

Really? But I want it.

Oh okay, you can have it.

Etc.

thomas35forever
09-25-2012, 04:02 PM
Neither team deserves to win the division, honestly.

Somebody has to, though.

You take it.

No you take it.

No I insist, I don't want it.

Oh, okay, I'll take it.

You know what? I changed my mind. I'll take it.

Really? But I want it.

Oh okay, you can have it.

Etc.
It's like that early Full House episode when Danny and Joey keep saying the other should take $800.

Patrick134
09-25-2012, 04:03 PM
It's pretty pathetic that the team seemed to gain zero momentum from a win like last night's this late in the year. Unreal.

johnnyg83
09-25-2012, 04:06 PM
It's like that early Full House episode when Danny and Joey keep saying the other should take $800.

Thank you. Never enough Full House references in these threads, a most welcome respite.

Now I must return to chewing my arm off.

kingpin_rcs
09-25-2012, 04:08 PM
No matter how this turns out, I think I'll be glad when it's over.

Lip Man 1
09-25-2012, 04:09 PM
Offense is still ****, six hits total...faced a rookie pitcher with a high ERA they had never seen before and the result was fairly typical.

Solo home runs aren't going to get it done guys...just sayin.

Not going to say it's a bad loss because ANY loss the final 10 days is a bad one...made worse because it came at home against a garbage club.

Win the series tomorrow (or at least try to...)

7th time in the past eight games the Sox have scored three runs or less.

Lip

Dibbs
09-25-2012, 04:10 PM
I'm not sure it matters because we can't beat the Yankees or Rangers right now anyway.

johnnyg83
09-25-2012, 04:12 PM
I think we could give the Yankees a run.



.... and they would win because we wouldn't score.

JasonFrasor54
09-25-2012, 04:16 PM
:angry: The sox are playing so bad right now its really unbelievable. Lets get some guys on when we hit homers. Solo shots are not cutting it.

Lip Man 1
09-25-2012, 04:18 PM
Nellie:

To answer your question about 'can this team score runs without hitting a home run...'

Apparently not.

Seriously just look at some of the batting averages trotted out, particularly the guy in the #3 hole.

It's really really hard to score runs when you have to string together three or four hits in a row when a lot of your lineup is hitting .250 or so.

If Detroit wins tonight they'll have gained three games on the Sox in seven days.

Lip

guillensdisciple
09-25-2012, 04:19 PM
Yep, yep and yep. Regardless of his heroics, he and konerko stick out like sore thumbs in this lineup lately,

hawkjt
09-25-2012, 04:20 PM
:angry: The sox are playing so bad right now its really unbelievable. Lets get some guys on when we hit homers. Solo shots are not cutting it.

I honestly think any Single A pitcher could go out there and shut us down.
We cannot hit guys with 5.7 ERA's....and when the Rays hit town, their guys are under 4 ERA....seems hopeless.


Liriano should have been out of that inning,but Gordo had a bad throw.
That double play combo of the Sox has been great all year...bad timing.
If Gordo makes the right throw...Sox win this game.

Go Cy Chen.....we need ya!

JB98
09-25-2012, 04:20 PM
Like all Sox fans, I had hoped the Dunn home run last night would wake this offense up. However, my experience as a baseball fan made me skeptical that would be the case.

Home runs, even big ones like the one Dunn hit last night, often don't bust slumps. A home run is just a lightning bolt off one man's bat. It is not a sustained offense. The Sox have not been able to sustain anything resembling a consistent offensive attack for this entire month. In fact, they've struggled most of the second half.

Again today, only six hits against a pitcher whose stuff was frankly unimpressive. Not good at all.

What the Sox really need is an inning where they bust loose for five or six hits and score four or five runs. That typically will get you out of a slump, moreso than a home run. The other thing that would help is scoring first.

You get a lead, you relax a little bit. That leads to better offense. You fall behind 4-0, and it's right back to "press, press, grind, grind, struggle, struggle," which has been the White Sox offense in September quite often in recent years.

esbrechtel
09-25-2012, 04:21 PM
Heartbreaking loss. I really hope
The royals show up tonight. I'd love to keep that full game lead....

Lip Man 1
09-25-2012, 04:23 PM
JB:

As usual you nailed it.

Lip

guillensdisciple
09-25-2012, 04:40 PM
Heartbreaking loss. I really hope
The royals show up tonight. I'd love to keep that full game lead....

If the tigers don't win this division, they only have themselves to blame. I have not seen so many opportunities wasted since 2008.

amsteel
09-25-2012, 04:52 PM
Sox doing nothing to dispel the rumor that's been going around all the season that they are a 10-over kinda team.

LITTLE NELL
09-25-2012, 04:54 PM
Just got back from dinner and forgot that this game was changed to an afternoon game, was all set to watch the game on my computer.
Looks like another game of a homer or nothing. This team just can't sustain any kind of an offense right now.

Lip Man 1
09-25-2012, 04:58 PM
Guillen:

You can honestly say the same thing about the White Sox. The division is there for the taking, they refuse to do it. They were almost making a joke about it (as well as Detroit) last night on the MLBN.

Sooner or later unless things change and they are running out of time to change it, it's going to jump up and bite them on the ass and cost them dearly (again) like previous times in the past 10 years.

-------------------

By the way I just looked up the box score and the attendance today was awful, granted it was originally scheduled for a night game. Something is flat out wrong and the fans are showing their displeasure.

I don't know what the season totals are but if the Sox draw fewer fans this year than the previous year it will mark the 6th consecutive season that happened, starting in 2007 when they dropped from 2006.

That's only happened two previous times in franchise history (and honestly I was shocked that it took place before) from 1926 to 1932 and from 1965 to 1970.

The explanations for the first two are pretty obvious...the great depression along with some bad teams and then the second time, the social unrest / race riots that gave the perception Comiskey Park was a 'dangerous' place and some of the worst teams in history.

I've having a hard time trying to figure out the obvious reasons for what could be the 3rd time other than, 'dynamic ticket' pricing and the fact that the Sox could have blown more playoff appearances (2010, maybe 2012) than actually made them (2008).

Lip

oldgrouch
09-25-2012, 05:01 PM
I honestly think any Single A pitcher could go out there and shut us down.
We cannot hit guys with 5.7 ERA's....and when the Rays hit town, their guys are under 4 ERA....seems hopeless.


Liriano should have been out of that inning,but Gordo had a bad throw.
That double play combo of the Sox has been great all year...bad timing.
If Gordo makes the right throw...Sox win this game.

Go Cy Chen.....we need ya!

I thought all the hitting problems would be gone after Greg Walker left.
Guess I was wrong.:(::(:

Lip Man 1
09-25-2012, 05:07 PM
Grouch:

I think Manto has done some good things and changed the dynamic but ultimately you can't turn a .200 hitter like Dunn into the Sox' version of Fielder or turn a .250 hitter like Beckham into a .300 guy. The Sox just don't have enough good hitters in the lineup...it's really that simple.

The hitting coach can help but in the end you've got to have good players, good hitters and the Sox don't have them in quantity.

Lip

TomBradley72
09-25-2012, 05:21 PM
Beckhams feed for the double play was unfortunate- BUT Liriano carries alot more of the blame for that inning- lead off walk, walks Lillibridge- then ****s the bed after the "almost" double play.

(not including todays game)

Last 30 Days-

Youkilis- .186-4-10
AJ- .212-3-4
PK- .229-3-10
Tank- .230-2-10
Dunn- .246-3-7

Last 7 Days-

Tank- ..154-0-1
Dunn- .160-2-4
Youk- .179-0-0
PK- .190-1-1
Beckham- .222-1-2
TCM- .240-0-1

Post All Star break- we have exactly 2 more wins than the "garbage" Royals- and we're 9th in team ERA and runs scored- very discouraging-

Lip Man 1
09-25-2012, 05:35 PM
Bradley:

Those numbers are very discouraging, very...but that's what happens when you don't have a bench worth a damn... guys are beat up and out of gas. But the numbers fall right in with what's been happening to this team almost every season (but one) in the second half since 2003.

Lip

supportsox
09-25-2012, 05:36 PM
As someone who was at the game one thing stood out for me, aside from the obvious disappointing performance. Liriano getting booed off the field. Really?
Yes, he disappointed. But booing? Did they think he was dogging it? The attendance is another issue, but why attend an important game like this and boo one of your guys back to the showers? It reminded me of the post game threads here, where "despite his heroics" Dunn is now not very good again according to some. Instead of asking if the team wants a title, maybe we should ask if the fans want it. Flame away.

slavko
09-25-2012, 05:37 PM
Hey Lip,

Talk about 1965-1970, this looked like a crowd from that era. Wonder if moving the game time had a lot to do with it? Sure didn't put butts in the seats.

Too much ranting going on in my mind. I'll save it for later.

amsteel
09-25-2012, 05:38 PM
As someone who was at the game one thing stood out for me, aside from the obvious disappointing performance. Liriano getting booed off the field. Really?
Yes, he disappointed. But booing? Did they think he was dogging it? The attendance is another issue, but why attend an important game like this and boo one of your guys back to the showers? It reminded me of the post game threads here, where "despite his heroics" Dunn is now not very good again according to some. Instead of asking if the team wants a title, maybe we should ask if the fans want it. Flame away.

The Sox are terrible right now and he was the embodiment of it today.

Mr. Jinx
09-25-2012, 05:42 PM
Hey Lip,

Talk about 1965-1970, this looked like a crowd from that era. Wonder if moving the game time had a lot to do with it? Sure didn't put butts in the seats.

Too much ranting going on in my mind. I'll save it for later.

Yeah, moving the game time with 2 weeks notice is idiotic.

Soxman219
09-25-2012, 05:43 PM
Back from the game. That was a damn joke. The Sox should be ashamed of themselves for losing this game. In classic Sox fashion, they lose to a nobody pitcher, they lose a HUGE September game, they only score on the HR, and don't know the meaning of clutch hitting! When Konerko hit that HR in the 9th I didn't even cheer. I knew that was the only run we'll score. I hoped I was proven wrong but I wasn't. Beckham couldn't even wait for ONE pitch! It's ok to take pitches you know! So disappointed in this team. Go Royals.

Foulke You
09-25-2012, 05:52 PM
Like all Sox fans, I had hoped the Dunn home run last night would wake this offense up. However, my experience as a baseball fan made me skeptical that would be the case.

Home runs, even big ones like the one Dunn hit last night, often don't bust slumps. A home run is just a lightning bolt off one man's bat. It is not a sustained offense. The Sox have not been able to sustain anything resembling a consistent offensive attack for this entire month. In fact, they've struggled most of the second half.

Again today, only six hits against a pitcher whose stuff was frankly unimpressive. Not good at all.

What the Sox really need is an inning where they bust loose for five or six hits and score four or five runs. That typically will get you out of a slump, moreso than a home run. The other thing that would help is scoring first.

You get a lead, you relax a little bit. That leads to better offense. You fall behind 4-0, and it's right back to "press, press, grind, grind, struggle, struggle," which has been the White Sox offense in September quite often in recent years.
This really sums it up. What is troubling to me is their inability to even cover a fastball recently. Soft tossing lefty or sinker ballers? Sure. Those type of pitchers historically have given the Sox fits. However, getting dazzled by right handed fastball throwers like Santana, Haren, Mccallister, and Kluber is very disconcerting. They all were pretty ordinary and had their way with our lineup. Also, when we do put good wood on a ball lately, it seems to be right at a defender. Baseball is a funny game though and can go in cycles. Hopefully, they can start one more good run to cap the year off. I agree about falling behind. Sox need to find a way to put a crooked number up early and allow their pitchers some breathing room.

kittle42
09-25-2012, 05:54 PM
This really sums it up. What is troubling to me is their inability to even cover a fastball recently. Soft tossing lefty or sinker ballers? Sure. Those type of pitchers historically have given the Sox fits. However, getting dazzled by right handed fastball throwers like Santana, Haren, Mccallister, and Kluber is very disconcerting.

Farmer and DJ have really - to their credit - been hard on the Sox for this lately, deservedly so. It's been good radio (well, bad in the sense that we'd never wish to hear it, but good analysis).

guillensdisciple
09-25-2012, 05:54 PM
As someone who was at the game one thing stood out for me, aside from the obvious disappointing performance. Liriano getting booed off the field. Really?
Yes, he disappointed. But booing? Did they think he was dogging it? The attendance is another issue, but why attend an important game like this and boo one of your guys back to the showers? It reminded me of the post game threads here, where "despite his heroics" Dunn is now not very good again according to some. Instead of asking if the team wants a title, maybe we should ask if the fans want it. Flame away.

I'm sorry, I didn't know you're not allowed to criticize players when they don't perform. I was there, I did not boo Liriano. Before last nights game I had a problem with Dunn, I still have a problem with him one game walk off or not.

Lip Man 1
09-25-2012, 05:56 PM
Foulke:

As Bradley's 30 day stats show, this isn't just something that happened last week...it was starting weeks ago.

These guys look dead on their feet, perhaps that's why they can't even catch-up to straight fastballs being thrown by guys with ERA's in the five's.

As far as Support's comment all I can say is that if you want to turn boo's to cheer's the answer is the same as how to bring more fans out...WIN.

Lip

enurb
09-25-2012, 05:59 PM
This is a real pillow fight.

billyvsox
09-25-2012, 06:20 PM
Sigh Chen getting lit up early. Sigh.............

supportsox
09-25-2012, 06:21 PM
As far as Support's comment all I can say is that if you want to turn boo's to cheer's the answer is the same as how to bring more fans out...WIN.

Yeah, if only the team were in first place it would be a different story.

supportsox
09-25-2012, 06:23 PM
When Konerko hit that HR in the 9th I didn't even cheer. I knew that was the only run we'll score.

Now that's the kind of support a team can really build off of!

JB98
09-25-2012, 06:23 PM
Yeah, if only the team were in first place it would be a different story.

The problem is few people believe the Sox are going to stay in first place.

I'll be out at the ballpark on my days off regardless. It doesn't matter to me. But I think people who are not diehards are rather uninspired by this White Sox team.

This is more of a pennant crawl than a pennant race.

supportsox
09-25-2012, 06:37 PM
But I think people who are not diehards are rather uninspired by this White Sox team.

I agree, but I don't understand. It's a classic underdog story...picked last, battle to stay in first most of season. Likable rookie manager exceeds expectations. Lots of home runs. It should appeal, but...

I apologize for being antagonistic, everyone is entitled to an opinion. And yes, if we keep losing every game we will not win the division. But some of the stuff I read on here doesn't even sound like it's coming from fans. Whatever happened to "get 'em tomorrow and we'll be OK"?

Dan H
09-25-2012, 06:40 PM
As fans, we can hope. But optimisim is a different story. The Sox have done nothing in the last three weeks to generate optimism. And if they can't hit the mopes the Indians are throwing at them, how are they going go against a tough pitching staff like the Rays have?

TomBradley72
09-25-2012, 06:40 PM
The problem is few people believe the Sox are going to stay in first place.

I'll be out at the ballpark on my days off regardless. It doesn't matter to me. But I think people who are not diehards are rather uninspired by this White Sox team.

This is more of a pennant crawl than a pennant race.

Hell- I'm a ridiculously obsessed diehard- and this team has done very little to "inspire" for the last month or so- we're a Rios slide, a Rios HR and a Dunn HR away from a 9 game losing streak.

JB98
09-25-2012, 06:42 PM
I agree, but I don't understand. It's a classic underdog story...picked last, battle to stay in first most of season. Likable rookie manager exceeds expectations. Lots of home runs. It should appeal, but...

I apologize for being antagonistic, everyone is entitled to an opinion. And yes, if we keep losing every game we will not win the division. But some of the stuff I read on here doesn't even sound like it's coming from fans. Whatever happened to "get 'em tomorrow and we'll be OK"?

If this were a 90-win team barreling toward October with a full head of steam, the whole dynamic would be different.

Alas, it's an 82-win team, with the seventh best record in the American League, playing its worst baseball of the season at the worst possible time, with a frustrating offense that can't string together hits against even the weakest of pitchers right now, hacking and wheezing toward the finish line.

I'm really not surprised the bandwagon hasn't filled up. It isn't fun to be a White Sox fan right now. It just isn't. I'll grin and bear it because that's what I do. But quite a few others have gone into "**** this team" mode. I don't agree with that attitude, but I understand the frustration levels.

TomBradley72
09-25-2012, 06:47 PM
I agree, but I don't understand. It's a classic underdog story...picked last, battle to stay in first most of season. Likable rookie manager exceeds expectations. Lots of home runs. It should appeal, but...

I apologize for being antagonistic, everyone is entitled to an opinion. And yes, if we keep losing every game we will not win the division. But some of the stuff I read on here doesn't even sound like it's coming from fans. Whatever happened to "get 'em tomorrow and we'll be OK"?

Yes- but we're 35-33 in the 2nd half- .500 teams don't spur on great attendance/walk ups and are the ultimate in frustration for their fans- good enough to care- but not good enough to get really excited and maintain the excitement.

Labor Day weekend was ALL ours for media attention- we **** the bed.

This past weekend- it was all ours again- **** the bed.

Unless we're playing the Twins- we're 3-8 since September 12th.

Lip Man 1
09-25-2012, 06:48 PM
JB:

You got it pegged correctly. Now add in dynamic pricing which has infuriated fans, a brief playoff appearance since 2005 and as you said a team crawling towards the finish and I can understand why fans are saying it's not worth it.

Lip

SephClone89
09-25-2012, 06:50 PM
Yes- but we're 35-33 in the 2nd half- .500 teams don't spur on great attendance/walk ups and are the ultimate in frustration for their fans- good enough to care- but not good enough to get really excited and maintain the excitement.

Labor Day weekend was ALL ours for media attention- we **** the bed.

This past weekend- it was all ours again- **** the bed.

Unless we're playing the Twins- we're 3-8 since September 12th.

STOP SAYING "**** THE BED"

The analogy doesn't even make sense!

Lip Man 1
09-25-2012, 06:50 PM
Billyv:

Naturally he's not pitching against the "home run or nothing" Sox is he?

Lip

SephClone89
09-25-2012, 07:14 PM
Can we please not take this to a Game 163 next Thursday?

I have two tickets to a one-night only screening of Lawrence of Arabia that night...

RadioheadRocks
09-25-2012, 07:16 PM
Sigh Chen getting lit up early. Sigh.............

Like I said in last night's game thread, KC is (mod edit...a bit too graphic, Radio...PM sent :)

RadioheadRocks
09-25-2012, 07:20 PM
I agree, but I don't understand. It's a classic underdog story...picked last, battle to stay in first most of season. Likable rookie manager exceeds expectations. Lots of home runs. It should appeal, but...

I apologize for being antagonistic, everyone is entitled to an opinion. And yes, if we keep losing every game we will not win the division. But some of the stuff I read on here doesn't even sound like it's coming from fans. Whatever happened to "get 'em tomorrow and we'll be OK"?

The problem is we've been saying that for almost FOUR WEEKS now, and aside from a couple of isolated good performances it's been the same ****, different day. And I'm no fly-by-night fan either... been a fan since my first White Sox game in 1970 (and they lost 106 that year!) and now is not the time for a first-place team to roll over and DIE. It also has nothing to do with being "right", "wrong" or whatever... bottom line is this has been almost four weeks of absolutely horse**** baseball, and I'm not going to sugar-coat that fact.

Brian26
09-25-2012, 07:24 PM
As someone who was at the game one thing stood out for me, aside from the obvious disappointing performance. Liriano getting booed off the field. Really?
Yes, he disappointed. But booing? Did they think he was dogging it? The attendance is another issue, but why attend an important game like this and boo one of your guys back to the showers? It reminded me of the post game threads here, where "despite his heroics" Dunn is now not very good again according to some. Instead of asking if the team wants a title, maybe we should ask if the fans want it. Flame away.

Other than the ridiculous notion that you can lecture adult professional sports fans on how to behave in the year 2012, you can damn well bet that anyone who took the day off from work and paid to attend this game has the right to boo a ****burger appearance from Liriano. New team, better pitching coach, heat of the pennant race and this guy can't get up for a big game? Boo away.

supportsox
09-25-2012, 07:32 PM
Other than the ridiculous notion that you can lecture adult professional sports fans on how to behave in the year 2012, you can damn well bet that anyone who took the day off from work and paid to attend this game has the right to boo a ****burger appearance from Liriano. New team, better pitching coach, heat of the pennant race and this guy can't get up for a big game? Boo away.

OK, I'm starting to get what makes WSI so "special". I won't spoil the party with any more silly rah-rah BS.
And your post sounded a lot more like a lecture than mine.

Chez
09-25-2012, 07:35 PM
Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

Great Clint Eastwood quote, Fielder, from Unforgiven.

With our offense stuck in the mud, we have no margin for error and can't overcome a bad feed from the usually reliable Beckham. Still -- Liriano has to be able to pitch over that play.

Anyone else wonder why Robin didn't put up Wise for Beckham in the 9th? He pinch hit for Gordon on Monday night and had pinch hit for Viciedo earlier in the 9th. I know Gordon is swinging it better in September, but he's your 9th place hitter for a reason. An obvious reason.

Brian26
09-25-2012, 07:41 PM
As someone who was at the game one thing stood out for me, aside from the obvious disappointing performance. Liriano getting booed off the field. Really?
Yes, he disappointed. But booing? Did they think he was dogging it? The attendance is another issue, but why attend an important game like this and boo one of your guys back to the showers? It reminded me of the post game threads here, where "despite his heroics" Dunn is now not very good again according to some. Instead of asking if the team wants a title, maybe we should ask if the fans want it. Flame away.


:rolling:

tony1972
09-25-2012, 08:03 PM
The attendance was pretty sad today.

I know myself I wanted to go to the game..

However..I was "tired"....

soxfanreggie
09-25-2012, 08:16 PM
We can't rely on teams like KC to win games for us against the Tigers, we have to go out and win for ourselves. Cy Chen only seems to work against us. Hitting solo shots isn't going to get it done over the long haul. It all starts with getting base runners on and moving them into scoring position.

Giving up 4 runs to a team like Cleveland isn't setting us up to have no chance to win.

We're likely to be tied here after tonight. We can still control our own destiny starting with tomorrow.

soxfan1965
09-25-2012, 08:21 PM
Cy didn't do too bad, just Sanchez did better. Now tied. Sigh.

TheOldRoman
09-25-2012, 08:27 PM
Not surprisingly, the horse**** Royals, who are "really playing better" in the second half by going 23-32 against teams other than the Sox, dropped another game to the Tigers, falling to 4-9 against them on the season. The Tigers miraculously found a way to hit Bruce Chen. We are now tied.

Soxman219
09-25-2012, 08:28 PM
Well, Sox and Tigers tied after 154 games. One week to go, whoever sucks the least wins the division.

guillensdisciple
09-25-2012, 08:33 PM
This team has sucked really bad under pressure the last week. Now that Detroit has ties I think we might be in trouble.

The pessimist in me might finally have won.

kobo
09-25-2012, 08:36 PM
I agree, but I don't understand. It's a classic underdog story...picked last, battle to stay in first most of season. Likable rookie manager exceeds expectations. Lots of home runs. It should appeal, but...

I apologize for being antagonistic, everyone is entitled to an opinion. And yes, if we keep losing every game we will not win the division. But some of the stuff I read on here doesn't even sound like it's coming from fans. Whatever happened to "get 'em tomorrow and we'll be OK"?
People tend to be pessimistic than optimistic around here.

CHISOXFAN13
09-25-2012, 08:43 PM
Not surprisingly, the horse**** Royals, who are "really playing better" in the second half by going 23-32 against teams other than the Sox, dropped another game to the Tigers, falling to 4-9 against them on the season. The Tigers miraculously found a way to hit Bruce Chen. We are now tied.

They scored two runs off him. Let's not act like they scored seven in three innings.

He also shut their asses down the last time they played, too.

I, for one, will be happy when Bruce Chen retires. I've had enough.

ChiSoxGirl
09-25-2012, 08:45 PM
People tend to be pessimistic than optimistic around here.

This is so true and I, for one, am tired of all the pessimism surrounding this team, which is why I have made so few posts in the Clubhouse.

I'm so over reading about how much this team sucks, how Robin is like Lovie Smith and how much Dunn blows. To me, 41 home runs don't "blow." In fact, home run #41 happened to give the Sox one of their biggest victories of the season last night. Those 41 home runs sure as hell look better than the 11 he hit just one year ago! And oh, by the way, dude has almost 100 RBIs, which is almost double his total from last season.

I'm choosing to remain positive and have hope that someone or something will snap the Sox out of their slide; be it Robin, a coach, a player, whomever. I just want them to break out of it and give us one of the most memorable weeks of baseball we've seen in quite awhile on the south side.

I'll be there on Friday and Sunday with as much optimism and hope as I've ever had for my favorite team.

JB98
09-25-2012, 08:45 PM
They scored two runs off him. Let's not act like they scored seven in three innings.

He also shut their asses down the last time they played, too.

I, for one, will be happy when Bruce Chen retires. I've had enough.

Yeah, Chen struggled early but settled in and gave KC a quality start. Like many pitchers on the Sox this year, he was simply guilty of forgetting to throw a shutout. He would have had to give up negative runs in order to win.

TheOldRoman
09-25-2012, 08:47 PM
They scored two runs off him. Let's not act like they scored seven in three innings.

He also shut their asses down the last time they played, too.

I, for one, will be happy when Bruce Chen retires. I've had enough.Still two runs more than the Sox scored last time out, despite him having far from his best stuff.

kobo
09-25-2012, 08:51 PM
This is so true and I, for one, am tired of all the pessimism surrounding this team, which is why I have made so few posts in the Clubhouse.

I'm so over reading about how much this team sucks, how Robin is like Lovie Smith and how much Dunn blows. To me, 41 home runs don't "blow." In fact, home run #41 happened to give the Sox one of their biggest victories of the season last night. Those 41 home runs sure as hell look better than the 11 he hit just one year ago! And oh, by the way, dude has almost 100 RBIs, which is almost double his total from last season.

I'm choosing to remain positive and have hope that someone or something will snap the Sox out of their slide; be it Robin, a coach, a player, whomever. I just want them to break out of it and give us one of the most memorable weeks of baseball we've seen in quite awhile on the south side.

I'll be there on Friday and Sunday with as much optimism and hope as I've ever had for my favorite team.
Great post. Agree with everything. Is it frustrating watching this team? Hell yes it is. But I'd rather be hopeful that they can pull this off instead of pissing and moaning about everything. I'll be there on Saturday for the last time this season, and win or lose I am going to have fun.

A. Cavatica
09-25-2012, 08:55 PM
Great post. Agree with everything. Is it frustrating watching this team? Hell yes it is. But I'd rather be hopeful that they can pull this off instead of pissing and moaning about everything. I'll be there on Saturday for the last time this season, and win or lose I am going to have fun.

Meaningful baseball in late September = awesome.

Domeshot17
09-25-2012, 08:56 PM
You can't really blame the Sox for regressing to their talent level. They had a nice run, maybe they can squeak it out, but this really isn't an overly good team. Bench being so thin has our starters exhausted, and we are below average offensively at 1b-2b-3b-LF with our CF-SS pretty average. Our bullpen and our defense are really good most of the time, but even our rotation beyond Peavy and Sale is just kind of blah.

It was a great ride, but the more I think about it, the more I just can't be mad at a guy like Quintana for being who he is, or Liriano, or Beckham or Tank. These are just below average talents. Couple that with Konerko not producing with his wrist bad, just all came apart.

If they can find a way to play over their heads for 1 more week, maybe we get in, if not, hopefully Kenny tries and builds a real winner next year.

SI1020
09-25-2012, 08:57 PM
This is so true and I, for one, am tired of all the pessimism surrounding this team, which is why I have made so few posts in the Clubhouse.

I'm so over reading about how much this team sucks, how Robin is like Lovie Smith and how much Dunn blows. To me, 41 home runs don't "blow." In fact, home run #41 happened to give the Sox one of their biggest victories of the season last night. Those 41 home runs sure as hell look better than the 11 he hit just one year ago! And oh, by the way, dude has almost 100 RBIs, which is almost double his total from last season.

I'm choosing to remain positive and have hope that someone or something will snap the Sox out of their slide; be it Robin, a coach, a player, whomever. I just want them to break out of it and give us one of the most memorable weeks of baseball we've seen in quite awhile on the south side.

I'll be there on Friday and Sunday with as much optimism and hope as I've ever had for my favorite team. Nothing against you, it seems you are both a nice person and a great fan. However it cuts both ways. If you've stuck by this team for over 50 years, through thick and thin and thinner you really don't want to be told what a lousy fan you are, or that maybe you should cheer for a team like the Yanks. Little by little I'm trying to be more of a lurker than a poster. Again, please do not take this as a criticism of you personally. Like I said, you seem nice and I envy those that can call you a friend.

ChiSoxGirl
09-25-2012, 09:03 PM
Great post. Agree with everything. Is it frustrating watching this team? Hell yes it is. But I'd rather be hopeful that they can pull this off instead of pissing and moaning about everything. I'll be there on Saturday for the last time this season, and win or lose I am going to have fun.

The ups and downs are SO drastic, too; one minute we suck and will never win another game, and next people are posting about the potential opponents and rotation for the playoffs.

It's so easy to get down and out about this team right now because they have shown us little in the way of proving the pessimists wrong. However, no matter how much people nitpick or critique, the only people who can fix the Sox problems are the Sox themselves. People can critique six ways to Sunday, but all we can do is sit back, relax and strap it down.

As of tonight, I am officially adding the Sox to my list of nighttime prayers because they need all the help they can get!

delben91
09-25-2012, 09:03 PM
I'm choosing to remain positive and have hope that someone or something will snap the Sox out of their slide; be it Robin, a coach, a player, whomever. I just want them to break out of it and give us one of the most memorable weeks of baseball we've seen in quite awhile on the south side.


I may be a pollyanna for saying this, but I think the sox approach at the plate has been vastly improved the last couple of games. Maybe no real results, but a lot more line drives vice the series of pop ups we saw during the 5 game losing streak.

I think they can go 5-3 over their last 8. Is that enough? We'll see, but considering I figured they'd fight Minnesota for the basement this year, I'm trilled to see how it turns out.

CHISOXFAN13
09-25-2012, 09:03 PM
Still two runs more than the Sox scored last time out, despite him having far from his best stuff.

The Royals did not lose because of Chen. They lost because Sanchez threw his best outing in a Tigers uniform.

Soxman219
09-25-2012, 09:07 PM
This is so true and I, for one, am tired of all the pessimism surrounding this team, which is why I have made so few posts in the Clubhouse.

I'm so over reading about how much this team sucks, how Robin is like Lovie Smith and how much Dunn blows. To me, 41 home runs don't "blow." In fact, home run #41 happened to give the Sox one of their biggest victories of the season last night. Those 41 home runs sure as hell look better than the 11 he hit just one year ago! And oh, by the way, dude has almost 100 RBIs, which is almost double his total from last season.

I'm choosing to remain positive and have hope that someone or something will snap the Sox out of their slide; be it Robin, a coach, a player, whomever. I just want them to break out of it and give us one of the most memorable weeks of baseball we've seen in quite awhile on the south side.

I'll be there on Friday and Sunday with as much optimism and hope as I've ever had for my favorite team.

I hope you're there for a White Sox division clincher.

Lip Man 1
09-25-2012, 09:08 PM
They still found a way to win the game. The Sox usually didn't against K.C.

ChiSoxGirl:

I don't know if God plays baseball favorites but if you think it will help go for it. To me the old adage applies, "The Lord helps those who help themselves..." Meaning it's up to the Sox, not God, not the fans, not luck or the weather. It's up to them.

Considering they are 11-17 since August 27th, they need to change things in a hurry and they are running out of time. The way to change the fans pessimism is simple. Win games, win a lot of them. That seems to be the rub as Shakespeare wrote though.

Lip

Brian26
09-25-2012, 09:18 PM
However, no matter how much people nitpick or critique, they only people who can fix the Sox problems are the Sox themselves.

This is correct, which illustrates how insane it for someone to show up and start lecturing people that the Sox lost today because "the fans don't want it bad enough" or because not enough people took off work to come to the game, or, god forbid, Liriano got booed after he was taken out of the game.

mahagga73
09-25-2012, 09:19 PM
You can't really blame the Sox for regressing to their talent level. They had a nice run, maybe they can squeak it out, but this really isn't an overly good team. Bench being so thin has our starters exhausted, and we are below average offensively at 1b-2b-3b-LF with our CF-SS pretty average. Our bullpen and our defense are really good most of the time, but even our rotation beyond Peavy and Sale is just kind of blah.

It was a great ride, but the more I think about it, the more I just can't be mad at a guy like Quintana for being who he is, or Liriano, or Beckham or Tank. These are just below average talents. Couple that with Konerko not producing with his wrist bad, just all came apart.

If they can find a way to play over their heads for 1 more week, maybe we get in, if not, hopefully Kenny tries and builds a real winner next year.
I have heard this Beckham is below average offensively at second base a lot and the fact is it is not true. The average league second baseman has a .257 avg, 5 HR's, and 28 RBI's. There are very few that can hit at all much less play great defense. So his power numbers are actually above average by quite a bit.

PushinWeight
09-25-2012, 09:39 PM
Teams don't stay in first losing as many games as the Sox have this month.

Tied with 8 games left. It didn't have to come to this, but it has, and we will see if this Sox team has anything left.

Frater Perdurabo
09-25-2012, 09:47 PM
I have heard this Beckham is below average offensively at second base a lot and the fact is it is not true. The average league second baseman has a .257 avg, 5 HR's, and 28 RBI's. There are very few that can hit at all much less play great defense. So his power numbers are actually above average by quite a bit.

I think disappointment in Beckham stems from our hopes/aspirations/expectations that he would put up numbers like Michael Young. (Disclosure: In 2009 I declared he'd make the HOF.)

No position on this team is so solid that it cannot be upgraded, other than perhaps RF. I just hope any improvements in offense at a position do not weaken the defense at that position.

Ideally we could acquire a high-average, decent power doubles machine who could hit third and play excellent defense at third base. Unfortunately Adrian Beltre is locked up by the Rangers.

tstrike2000
09-25-2012, 09:56 PM
Other than the ridiculous notion that you can lecture adult professional sports fans on how to behave in the year 2012, you can damn well bet that anyone who took the day off from work and paid to attend this game has the right to boo a ****burger appearance from Liriano. New team, better pitching coach, heat of the pennant race and this guy can't get up for a big game? Boo away.

Have to agree. Three solo homers isn't a great, but **** pitching from a guy who couldn't even make it through four innings to put his team in a 4-0 hole, sucked. No wonder his ass is 6-12, no matter if he pitched for a horrid Twins team or not.

Lip Man 1
09-25-2012, 09:58 PM
Frater:

Not trying to venture off topic but I suspect Hahn (assuming he tales over) is going to find himself incredibly challenged.

He's probably going to have a modest payroll because the Sox continue to lose fans every year and with the number of potential free agents (Liriano, Myers, Peavy, A.J., Youk...potentially Floyd) I'd be shocked if he can come up with the money to sign any of the guys he has let alone go out and acquire a good hitter.

We'll see of course.

Lip

kobo
09-25-2012, 10:01 PM
Frater:

Not trying to venture off topic but I suspect Hahn (assuming he tales over) is going to find himself incredibly challenged.

He's probably going to have a modest payroll because the Sox continue to lose fans every year and with the number of potential free agents (Liriano, Myers, Peavy, A.J., Youk...potentially Floyd) I'd be shocked if he can come up with the money to sign any of the guys he has let alone go out and acquire a good hitter.

We'll see of course.

Lip
***, is the payroll going to be $40 million next year? Talk about being pessimistic.

Lip Man 1
09-25-2012, 10:29 PM
Kobo:

Please tell me then who you think the Sox are going to resign from their own. I'm interested in who and why.

Not trying to be optimistic or pessimistic just saying I can't see the Sox coming up with the money to bring back these guys.

The only possible exception in my mind is A.J. JR personally stepped in and worked out a deal after Kenny had started negotiations with Miguel Olivo's agent the last time and he might do it again. Phil Rogers today said he could see a two year deal worth 16 million plus an option and I'm thinking for a 35 year old catcher?

But please tell me who among this group is returning.

And as far as the payroll, it depends. If the Sox get to the post season that's at least a few more home games, the money can help for next year. If they don't, I can't see it over 100 million let's put it that way. I think it started out at 109 this year.

Lip

TheOldRoman
09-25-2012, 11:14 PM
I have heard this Beckham is below average offensively at second base a lot and the fact is it is not true. The average league second baseman has a .257 avg, 5 HR's, and 28 RBI's. There are very few that can hit at all much less play great defense. So his power numbers are actually above average by quite a bit.Thank you. The notion that this team has overachieved is BS and a total cop-out. AJ has overachieved. Rios has arguably overachieved, but he is probably just finally playing up to his potential. Quintana has obviously overachieved. Konerko has horribly underachieved, but that is largely due to whatever injuries he is dealing with now. Ramirez has horribly underachieved. Until about a month ago, Beckham was putting up career worst numbers. Morel was bad and injured, and we got Youkilis. Youk is surely a worn out vet, but this is by far his worst full season, with his average 25 points below his previous career low. De Aza is hasn't overachieved, he is playing how he was supposed to play when he was the CF of the future for the Marlins, before unfortunate injuries. Dunn's numbers are only impressive compared to his 2011. Viciedo has not grown as a player over the season. In fact, he looked to regress. Add in Danks being injured and performing poorly because of it, Floyd not getting a hot streak like in other years, and Humber not even being serviceable after being very good last year. This team has underachieved far more than it has overachieved.

delben91
09-25-2012, 11:16 PM
Kobo:

Please tell me then who you think the Sox are going to resign from their own. I'm interested in who and why.

Not trying to be optimistic or pessimistic just saying I can't see the Sox coming up with the money to bring back these guys.

The only possible exception in my mind is A.J. JR personally stepped in and worked out a deal after Kenny had started negotiations with Miguel Olivo's agent the last time and he might do it again. Phil Rogers today said he could see a two year deal worth 16 million plus an option and I'm thinking for a 35 year old catcher?

But please tell me who among this group is returning.

And as far as the payroll, it depends. If the Sox get to the post season that's at least a few more home games, the money can help for next year. If they don't, I can't see it over 100 million let's put it that way. I think it started out at 109 this year.

Lip

So what, they're going to field a 9 man roster? If they can't retain their own players and can't acquire any others, not even subpar journeymen because the Sox won't have $ to pay their league minimum contracts what's left?

If you're saying the roster next year is:

Sale, Danks, Quintana, Reed, Ommogrosso, Veal, Septimo, Axelrod, Jones, Flowers, Konerko, Beckham, Ramirez, Rios and De Aza plus 10 random minor leaguers than I think that's incredibly unrealistic.

JB98
09-25-2012, 11:22 PM
It's worth asking, how many in that group do the Sox want to bring back anyway?

After today's showing, I'm done with Liriano. No way he's back next year. No way. Acquiring him was worth the risk, but it just hasn't worked out.

I generally like both Myers and Youk, but I wouldn't consider bringing either of them back given the dollars they are going to command. Youk, in particular, is a huge injury risk. Let some other team take the risk.

I think the Sox will keep A.J.

With Peavy, the Sox will decline that hefty option. Some NL team will come calling and offer him four years. The Sox will wisely decline to match and move on.

There is some money coming off the books this offseason. The question is, what will the Sox do with the dollars available?

delben91
09-25-2012, 11:32 PM
It's worth asking, how many in that group do the Sox want to bring back anyway?

After today's showing, I'm done with Liriano. No way he's back next year. No way. Acquiring him was worth the risk, but it just hasn't worked out.

I generally like both Myers and Youk, but I wouldn't consider bringing either of them back given the dollars they are going to command. Youk, in particular, is a huge injury risk. Let some other team take the risk.

I think the Sox will keep A.J.

With Peavy, the Sox will decline that hefty option. Some NL team will come calling and offer him four years. The Sox will wisely decline to match and move on.

There is some money coming off the books this offseason. The question is, what will the Sox do with the dollars available?

I agree with all this. I do think the premise that the Sox will have $0 to spend even if they don't re-sign any of the above (or only AJ) is extreme hyperbole. (I know that wasn't your post, just sayin)

JB98
09-25-2012, 11:38 PM
I agree with all this. I do think the premise that the Sox will have $0 to spend even if they don't re-sign any of the above (or only AJ) is extreme hyperbole. (I know that wasn't your post, just sayin)

Yeah, they'll have at least some dollars to spend. Will the payroll drop for next year? Ehh...probably, but not necessarily. We have to see how this final week plays out.

One of the reasons getting into the postseason is so critical is because the Sox need the money and the goodwill. Even an ALDS ouster would give two more home dates. A playoff appearance may help sell a few more season-ticket plans for next year also.

If the team continues to tank and hits the golf course on Oct. 4, then, yeah, the revenue and attendance problem will linger and payroll will probably drop next season.

Tragg
09-26-2012, 12:13 AM
Frater:

Not trying to venture off topic but I suspect Hahn (assuming he tales over) is going to find himself incredibly challenged.

He's probably going to have a modest payroll because the Sox continue to lose fans every year and with the number of potential free agents (Liriano, Myers, Peavy, A.J., Youk...potentially Floyd) I'd be shocked if he can come up with the money to sign any of the guys he has let alone go out and acquire a good hitter.

We'll see of course.

Lip
Well, if it's just a matter of saving all this salary and not re-investing it, then, indeed, it will be challenging.
On the other hand, if he gets a similar budget, he now has some room to maneuver and remake the team. Not many of those players really should be re-signed. (perhaps Peavy, Floyd and perhaps Liriano).
And that is if he can impart a change in offensive philosophy that still, in a good measure, represents low-obp Ozzie-style baseball.
And if he has a free hand, I'd expect him to move other players as well.
Ideally, with Peavy, I'd like to do an exercise and trade.

kobo
09-26-2012, 12:20 AM
Kobo:

Please tell me then who you think the Sox are going to resign from their own. I'm interested in who and why.

Not trying to be optimistic or pessimistic just saying I can't see the Sox coming up with the money to bring back these guys.

The only possible exception in my mind is A.J. JR personally stepped in and worked out a deal after Kenny had started negotiations with Miguel Olivo's agent the last time and he might do it again. Phil Rogers today said he could see a two year deal worth 16 million plus an option and I'm thinking for a 35 year old catcher?

But please tell me who among this group is returning.

And as far as the payroll, it depends. If the Sox get to the post season that's at least a few more home games, the money can help for next year. If they don't, I can't see it over 100 million let's put it that way. I think it started out at 109 this year.

Lip
I honestly haven't given much thought to next year. If they are going to resign anyone from the current group my money would be on AJ. He's probably going to test FA, but I don't think he's going to get anywhere close to what Phil Rogers wrote. Two yrs 16 million? With his attitude? No way that happens. He might get a slight bump from some team over his last contract but I can also see not many teams having an interest given his age and the year he's had. Do you or anyone think he's going to have a season like this year again? I don't.

I think Myers, Youk, Liriano, and Peavy are gone. Some team will overpay for Peavy, Myers isn't worth his option, and the other 2 are not the direction this team should go in. The focus of this offseason should be 3B, SP, bench. Catcher can be thrown in there as well if they don't resign AJ.

I think no matter what happens this year the payroll is going to be slightly lower. My guess is it ends up between 90-95 million. The only way that changes is if they make it to the World Series. And even if that happens, I still think they let a lot of guys go this offseason. It's going to be an interesting offseason to say the least.

DrCrawdad
09-26-2012, 01:16 AM
Sucky offense is sucky.

Go, Royals.

Can this ******* team ever score any ******* runs with 2 ******* outs?!! The opponents do it all the time!! ****!!!:angry:

Would be nice to actually have someone on base before jacking one.

You don't deserve to win this game or the division if you can't muster more than two solo shots off a young pitcher like Kluber.

Go KC!!!

It's pretty pathetic that the team seemed to gain zero momentum from a win like last night's this late in the year. Unreal.

Offense is still ****, six hits total...faced a rookie pitcher with a high ERA they had never seen before and the result was fairly typical.

Solo home runs aren't going to get it done guys...just sayin.

Not going to say it's a bad loss because ANY loss the final 10 days is a bad one...made worse because it came at home against a garbage club.

Win the series tomorrow (or at least try to...)

7th time in the past eight games the Sox have scored three runs or less.

Lip

Like all Sox fans, I had hoped the Dunn home run last night would wake this offense up. However, my experience as a baseball fan made me skeptical that would be the case.

Home runs, even big ones like the one Dunn hit last night, often don't bust slumps. A home run is just a lightning bolt off one man's bat. It is not a sustained offense. The Sox have not been able to sustain anything resembling a consistent offensive attack for this entire month. In fact, they've struggled most of the second half.

Again today, only six hits against a pitcher whose stuff was frankly unimpressive. Not good at all.

What the Sox really need is an inning where they bust loose for five or six hits and score four or five runs. That typically will get you out of a slump, moreso than a home run. The other thing that would help is scoring first.

You get a lead, you relax a little bit. That leads to better offense. You fall behind 4-0, and it's right back to "press, press, grind, grind, struggle, struggle," which has been the White Sox offense in September quite often in recent years.

If the tigers don't win this division, they only have themselves to blame. I have not seen so many opportunities wasted since 2008.

I started clicking posts to reply to, ones that I thought were spot-on then gave up.

When the Sox won the make-up game Tigers fans I know were distraught, thinking the season was over. In my pessimistic ways I told them it was by no means over. I wished it was, as it was when the 2005 buried the Indians but I knew this year it was different.

Now the records are the same. 8 games left for both teams. Whichever team losses less wins.

Go Sox!

TomBradley72
09-26-2012, 06:57 AM
You can't really blame the Sox for regressing to their talent level. They had a nice run, maybe they can squeak it out, but this really isn't an overly good team. Bench being so thin has our starters exhausted, and we are below average offensively at 1b-2b-3b-LF with our CF-SS pretty average. Our bullpen and our defense are really good most of the time, but even our rotation beyond Peavy and Sale is just kind of blah.

It was a great ride, but the more I think about it, the more I just can't be mad at a guy like Quintana for being who he is, or Liriano, or Beckham or Tank. These are just below average talents. Couple that with Konerko not producing with his wrist bad, just all came apart.

If they can find a way to play over their heads for 1 more week, maybe we get in, if not, hopefully Kenny tries and builds a real winner next year.

I have to agree- it's been a frustrating week- but not an overall season- the guys have played hard and for the most part- good fundamental baseball- the veterans have produced and there have been some very nice surprises from the young pitchers (Quintana, Jones, Veal, etc.) and KW made some great midseason moves to keep the ship afloat- it does look like they are running out of gas at the end- but hopefully they have one more little run in them to squeeze into the post season.

mahagga73
09-26-2012, 07:17 AM
Have to agree. Three solo homers isn't a great, but **** pitching from a guy who couldn't even make it through four innings to put his team in a 4-0 hole, sucked. No wonder his ass is 6-12, no matter if he pitched for a horrid Twins team or not.
Yes, anyone who wondered how this guy could have such good stuff and such a horrible record has now found out. He loses it faster than any pitcher I can ever remember. He sails along for awhile, then a walk, another walk, a 3 run HR. He always falls apart when a mistake like yesterday happens. I don't think Robin can get out there fast enough sometimes.

Boondock Saint
09-26-2012, 07:29 AM
Yes, anyone who wondered how this guy could have such good stuff and such a horrible record has now found out. He loses it faster than any pitcher I can ever remember. He sails along for awhile, then a walk, another walk, a 3 run HR. He always falls apart when a mistake like yesterday happens. I don't think Robin can get out there fast enough sometimes.


:vazquez:

harwar
09-26-2012, 07:31 AM
Yes, anyone who wondered how this guy could have such good stuff and such a horrible record has now found out. He loses it faster than any pitcher I can ever remember. He sails along for awhile, then a walk, another walk, a 3 run HR. He always falls apart when a mistake like yesterday happens. I don't think Robin can get out there fast enough sometimes.


Very similar to Gavin Floyd really .. 2 out of his last 3 starts he was dominating through 4 or 5 and then just lost it all very quickly ..

harwar
09-26-2012, 07:34 AM
You can't really blame the Sox for regressing to their talent level. They had a nice run, maybe they can squeak it out, but this really isn't an overly good team. Bench being so thin has our starters exhausted, and we are below average offensively at 1b-2b-3b-LF with our CF-SS pretty average. Our bullpen and our defense are really good most of the time, but even our rotation beyond Peavy and Sale is just kind of blah.

It was a great ride, but the more I think about it, the more I just can't be mad at a guy like Quintana for being who he is, or Liriano, or Beckham or Tank. These are just below average talents. Couple that with Konerko not producing with his wrist bad, just all came apart.

If they can find a way to play over their heads for 1 more week, maybe we get in, if not, hopefully Kenny tries and builds a real winner next year.


AWESOME POST .. I couldn't agree more ..

LITTLE NELL
09-26-2012, 07:45 AM
You can't really blame the Sox for regressing to their talent level. They had a nice run, maybe they can squeak it out, but this really isn't an overly good team. Bench being so thin has our starters exhausted, and we are below average offensively at 1b-2b-3b-LF with our CF-SS pretty average. Our bullpen and our defense are really good most of the time, but even our rotation beyond Peavy and Sale is just kind of blah.

It was a great ride, but the more I think about it, the more I just can't be mad at a guy like Quintana for being who he is, or Liriano, or Beckham or Tank. These are just below average talents. Couple that with Konerko not producing with his wrist bad, just all came apart.

If they can find a way to play over their heads for 1 more week, maybe we get in, if not, hopefully Kenny tries and builds a real winner next year.

AWESOME POST .. I couldn't agree more ..

I second it.

SCCWS
09-26-2012, 07:51 AM
You can't really blame the Sox for regressing to their talent level. They had a nice run, maybe they can squeak it out, but this really isn't an overly good team. Bench being so thin has our starters exhausted, and we are below average offensively at 1b-2b-3b-LF with our CF-SS pretty average. Our bullpen and our defense are really good most of the time, but even our rotation beyond Peavy and Sale is just kind of blah.

It was a great ride, but the more I think about it, the more I just can't be mad at a guy like Quintana for being who he is, or Liriano, or Beckham or Tank. These are just below average talents. Couple that with Konerko not producing with his wrist bad, just all came apart.

If they can find a way to play over their heads for 1 more week, maybe we get in, if not, hopefully Kenny tries and builds a real winner next year.

Not sure how you conclude that Konerko is below average offensively at 1st. Despite his injury woes, he is still 2nd in average and OBP and 3rd in home runs. His RBI total seems low compared to his average and number of HR's but that can partly be explained by Dunn is in front of him.

Golden Sox
09-26-2012, 08:11 AM
Assuming Hahn is the GM next year I see light at the end of the tunnel. Hahn didn't sign Dunn, Williams did. That being the case I can see Dunn being traded to fill one of the White Sox holes. (This just isn't wishful thinking either on my behalf) I think Dunn is one of the few people the White Sox could trade and get something decent in return without really hurting themselves. I'm under the imression the Mets are not going to sign David Wright and they're going to trade him before he becomes a free agent after the 2013 season. If the Mets want Dunn for him they can have him as far as I'm concerned. I would rather have Wright for at least one year than Dunn for another three years.

doublem23
09-26-2012, 08:13 AM
It's worth asking, how many in that group do the Sox want to bring back anyway?

After today's showing, I'm done with Liriano. No way he's back next year. No way. Acquiring him was worth the risk, but it just hasn't worked out.

I generally like both Myers and Youk, but I wouldn't consider bringing either of them back given the dollars they are going to command. Youk, in particular, is a huge injury risk. Let some other team take the risk.

I think the Sox will keep A.J.

With Peavy, the Sox will decline that hefty option. Some NL team will come calling and offer him four years. The Sox will wisely decline to match and move on.

There is some money coming off the books this offseason. The question is, what will the Sox do with the dollars available?

Exactly. Plus, doesn't the new MLB TV deal essentially guarantee the Sox an extra $25 million or so of revenue next season?

October26
09-26-2012, 08:15 AM
This is so true and I, for one, am tired of all the pessimism surrounding this team, which is why I have made so few posts in the Clubhouse.

I'm so over reading about how much this team sucks, how Robin is like Lovie Smith and how much Dunn blows. To me, 41 home runs don't "blow." In fact, home run #41 happened to give the Sox one of their biggest victories of the season last night. Those 41 home runs sure as hell look better than the 11 he hit just one year ago! And oh, by the way, dude has almost 100 RBIs, which is almost double his total from last season.

I'm choosing to remain positive and have hope that someone or something will snap the Sox out of their slide; be it Robin, a coach, a player, whomever. I just want them to break out of it and give us one of the most memorable weeks of baseball we've seen in quite awhile on the south side.

I'll be there on Friday and Sunday with as much optimism and hope as I've ever had for my favorite team.

Excellent post. I appreciate your optimism and positive energy which is much needed on WSI these days. You are an awesome Sox fan and so wise for being so young.

Like riding a rollercoaster, the MLB baseball season features many twists and turns. There will be tough loses: I was in attendance on 9.7.12 when Addison Reed gave up the two-run homer in the top of the 9th and the Sox lost in heartbreaking fashion. And there will be fantastic wins: I was also in attendance this past Monday night, 9.24.12, when Adam Dunn hit two homers, and carried the Sox to victory in exhilarating fashion.

Oh yes, there are definitely many highs and lows in the long MLB season!

For me, I think it is important to keep an even keel and maintain perspective. You're absolutely right that Adam Dunn has had a great year and so has Alex Rios. And I am so proud of Robin for the tremendous job he has done in his first year as Sox manager. Has Robin made rookie manager mistakes? Of course. Will Robin get better? Absolutely, because experience is the greatest teacher.

Unfortunately, we live in a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately world, and in the last few weeks the Sox have faltered so the spotlight along with the pressure is clearly on them. Like you, I will choose to stay positive and believe that the Sox have some heroics left to show us. This is not difficult for me to do as the Sox have been my favorite team since my father taught me to love the game of baseball and the White Sox when I was a young girl. I will be watching the remaining games at home with my father (who is no longer able to attend games) and rooting like crazy that we will get to see our Sox in the playoffs this year.

GO SOX!

doublem23
09-26-2012, 08:18 AM
Assuming Hahn is the GM next year I see light at the end of the tunnel. Hahn didn't sign Dunn, Williams did. That being the case I can see Dunn being traded to fill one of the White Sox holes. (This just isn't wishful thinking either on my behalf) I think Dunn is one of the few people the White Sox could trade and get something decent in return without really hurting themselves. I'm under the imression the Mets are not going to sign David Wright and they're going to trade him before he becomes a free agent after the 2013 season. If the Mets want Dunn for him they can have him as far as I'm concerned. I would rather have Wright for at least one year than Dunn for another three years.

Nice little rant, I won't even bother to ask why you feel the Mets would want to acquire Dunn when they have two younger, up and coming 1B, but the main problem with your hypothesis is that Wright is potentially an FA after this season, his contract is guaranteed through this season, 2013 is a team option, the Mets can either pick him up for $16 M or let him go for a $1 M buyout. Can't see them picking up the option and then trading him.

Noneck
09-26-2012, 08:20 AM
I would rather have Wright for at least one year than Dunn for another three years.

Dunn has 2 more years not 3.

supportsox
09-26-2012, 08:30 AM
This is correct, which illustrates how insane it for someone to show up and start lecturing people that the Sox lost today because "the fans don't want it bad enough" or because not enough people took off work to come to the game, or, god forbid, Liriano got booed after he was taken out of the game.


With all respect due you as a moderator, I feel you have taken my post out of context.

1. I said "the attendance is another issue." I didn't say anything about how people should take off work. That's crazy. I did not say you or anybody else should have been there. The attendance IS another ,very complex, issue, and I did not elaborate because I know there is a policy against that. I feel like you put a lot of critical words in my mouth.

2. I stand by my comments about booing. I didn't like it when it happened to Dunn last year and I don't like it now. How is it constructive support when a team watches their guy trudge off to boos when the score is only 4-0 and the game isnt even half over? There is another thread here called "A Call To Arms" where the OP says don't boo Addison Reed this week if he messes up. I didn't see you call that a lecture or "insane".

3. As ChiSox Girl stated, the board is too negative. After a setback, you should be able to come to "fan" boards to feel better instead of being met with vitrol. It really seems like the ultimate goal of many posters at the end of the season is to say "I told you so". I don't think that's being a fan. I'm not saying that about you or anybody here personally. It's actually pretty common on message boards, but I've never liked it.

4. I feel I just stated my opinion and didn't lecture anybody. I didn't say the Sox lost because any of my issues. I don't think the notion of supporting a team through bad time is "insane". It seems I angered you and I apologize if that's the case.

soxfanreggie
09-26-2012, 08:35 AM
It's worth asking, how many in that group do the Sox want to bring back anyway?

After today's showing, I'm done with Liriano. No way he's back next year. No way. Acquiring him was worth the risk, but it just hasn't worked out.

I generally like both Myers and Youk, but I wouldn't consider bringing either of them back given the dollars they are going to command. Youk, in particular, is a huge injury risk. Let some other team take the risk.

I think the Sox will keep A.J.

With Peavy, the Sox will decline that hefty option. Some NL team will come calling and offer him four years. The Sox will wisely decline to match and move on.

There is some money coming off the books this offseason. The question is, what will the Sox do with the dollars available?

The Sox will have plenty of money freed up from Peavy to invest in a replacement starter. I know he likes it here and probably will wish we could offer up a decent deal, but he'll probably be able to get plenty more out of another team. We also have to remember that Danks should be back and ready to go next year. I keep having to remind myself that he came into this year as our top starter but has been out for so long.

As for AJ, I agree that we'll keep him. We probably have two years to find his replacement. For the 1,000th time I've said this, we really hurt ourselves by not drafting someone a few years back that would be very viable to step into the starting role. I don't think Flowers will be a good everyday starter for us at catcher, and I'm not sure what we'll be able to acquire in free agency the next two years.

With Youk, the potential FA 3B is very weak. If we don't pick up his expensive option for just one year, I hope we try to work out a 2 or 3 year deal with him. He'll probably require a 3 year deal to stay though.

doublem23
09-26-2012, 08:39 AM
As for AJ, I agree that we'll keep him. We probably have two years to find his replacement. For the 1,000th time I've said this, we really hurt ourselves by not drafting someone a few years back that would be very viable to step into the starting role. I don't think Flowers will be a good everyday starter for us at catcher, and I'm not sure what we'll be able to acquire in free agency the next two years.

I roughly agree with this except that in baseball, more than any other sport, it makes little sense to draft for "need," at least at the big league level. It's a disaster waiting to happen when you start saying "so and so high school player or college junior will fill in nicely for us when he's ready in 3-4 years." So many players flame out so often, you just take the best talent available and make it work if they ever make it to the Majors.

roylestillman
09-26-2012, 08:53 AM
Exactly. Plus, doesn't the new MLB TV deal essentially guarantee the Sox an extra $25 million or so of revenue next season?

But so did every other team. I'm afraid all this means is that the price of talent (and mediocrity) just went up about 20%.

There is a lot of salary wiggle room for the Sox next year, but expiring contracts are leaving big holes that can't be filled by talent waiting in the minor league wings. I'm thinking of catcher and third base here in particular. The Sox Are going to have to wade into an inflated free agent market, which will include the talent we have today. I don't envy whoever is GM.

russ99
09-26-2012, 08:54 AM
The Sox will have plenty of money freed up from Peavy to invest in a replacement starter. I know he likes it here and probably will wish we could offer up a decent deal, but he'll probably be able to get plenty more out of another team. We also have to remember that Danks should be back and ready to go next year. I keep having to remind myself that he came into this year as our top starter but has been out for so long.

As for AJ, I agree that we'll keep him. We probably have two years to find his replacement. For the 1,000th time I've said this, we really hurt ourselves by not drafting someone a few years back that would be very viable to step into the starting role. I don't think Flowers will be a good everyday starter for us at catcher, and I'm not sure what we'll be able to acquire in free agency the next two years.

With Youk, the potential FA 3B is very weak. If we don't pick up his expensive option for just one year, I hope we try to work out a 2 or 3 year deal with him. He'll probably require a 3 year deal to stay though.

Gonna save most of this for my end of year posts, but IMO we need a major rework of the roster.

If we can somehow find a taker for Dunn, we should do so but it probably means taking back another bigger contract. I'd be OK with Konerko and A.J. one more year (if A.J. takes a pay cut) but we need to find good replacements for them soon.

The big questions in my mind are: After Sale, who's starting? Peavy's gone and Danks and Floyd have been injured and regressed and aren't earning their salary. Also, how many of the younger players who have hit poorly will be given a chance and how many will be dealt while they can because of perceived potential?

However, much of what Kenny and/or Hahn can do is dependent on how much more Jerry cuts the payroll because we didn't show up.

Domeshot17
09-26-2012, 08:56 AM
I roughly agree with this except that in baseball, more than any other sport, it makes little sense to draft for "need," at least at the big league level. It's a disaster waiting to happen when you start saying "so and so high school player or college junior will fill in nicely for us when he's ready in 3-4 years." So many players flame out so often, you just take the best talent available and make it work if they ever make it to the Majors.

The problem is, the Sox don't draft with either strategy, I draft with the worst possible strategy: Who is the best player available that is an easy sign and will sign below slot.

We seem to do that with FA too, outside Dunn, and Jerry even said this on the mlb show we were on, We sign guys who come off terrible years in hopes they regain being good players.

TheOldRoman
09-26-2012, 09:03 AM
AWESOME POST .. I couldn't agree more ..And I couldn't agree less. I already posted how claiming the team overacheived all year was a lazy cop-out showing a poor understanding of the team. That was before I saw he posted Viciedo was "below average talent". Saying he had a poor year (essentially as a rookie) is one thing, but claiming he is not talented shows extreme ignorance. People either don't understand why the team loses or want to justify their doom-and-gloom predictions, so they say "Welp, the team just doesn't have talent." That was bull**** when it was used as justification for the team not making the playoffs in 2010, it was bull**** when people said the Sox had no talent last year after improving an 88-win team (on paper). It's bull**** this year. Far more players underacheived than overachieved for the Sox this year.

kufram
09-26-2012, 09:52 AM
This is so true and I, for one, am tired of all the pessimism surrounding this team, which is why I have made so few posts in the Clubhouse.

I'm so over reading about how much this team sucks, how Robin is like Lovie Smith and how much Dunn blows. To me, 41 home runs don't "blow." In fact, home run #41 happened to give the Sox one of their biggest victories of the season last night. Those 41 home runs sure as hell look better than the 11 he hit just one year ago! And oh, by the way, dude has almost 100 RBIs, which is almost double his total from last season.

I'm choosing to remain positive and have hope that someone or something will snap the Sox out of their slide; be it Robin, a coach, a player, whomever. I just want them to break out of it and give us one of the most memorable weeks of baseball we've seen in quite awhile on the south side.

I'll be there on Friday and Sunday with as much optimism and hope as I've ever had for my favorite team.

Excellent post. I appreciate your optimism and positive energy which is much needed on WSI these days. You are an awesome Sox fan and so wise for being so young.

Like riding a rollercoaster, the MLB baseball season features many twists and turns. There will be tough loses: I was in attendance on 9.7.12 when Addison Reed gave up the two-run homer in the top of the 9th and the Sox lost in heartbreaking fashion. And there will be fantastic wins: I was also in attendance this past Monday night, 9.24.12, when Adam Dunn hit two homers, and carried the Sox to victory in exhilarating fashion.

Oh yes, there are definitely many highs and lows in the long MLB season!

For me, I think it is important to keep a even keel and maintain perspective. You're absolutely right that Adam Dunn has had a great year and so has Alex Rios. And I am so proud of Robin for the tremendous job he has done in his first year as Sox manager. Has Robin made rookie manager mistakes? Of course. Will Robin get better? Absolutely, because experience is the greatest teacher.

Unfortunately, we live in a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately world, and in the last few weeks the Sox have faltered so the spotlight along with the pressure is clearly on them. Like you, I will choose to stay positive and believe that the Sox have some heroics left to show us. This is not difficult for me to do as the Sox have been my favorite team since my father taught me to love the game of baseball and the White Sox when I was a young girl. I will be watching the remaining games at home with my father (who is no longer able to attend games) and rooting like crazy that we will get to see our Sox in the playoffs this year.

GO SOX!


And here I thought it was only me that doesn't give up until the last out. I don't post as much as I'd like to sometimes because it just doesn't seem very welcome. Fantasy baseball and sabermetrics has a lot to answer for. Everyone thinks they know better than the people who actually know (and I don't mean me... I played a lot of baseball and I don't know why some weeks you can hit and other weeks you can't but I'm pretty sure it will always be an unknown factor like so many things in baseball).

PK is a perfect example. I'd rather have him up to bat in a tough situation with the season on the line than anyone else. This is a guy who has to prove nothing to me. He took a pitch in the eye. His wrist hurts (a somewhat useful tool in mlb batting boxes). But he's still hitting .300 and he is more likely to find something special at just the right time than anyone else in my opinion. i'd rather lose with him than win with Bonds, Magwire, Sammy Sosa, etc.

Beckham made a bad throw that cost us at a critical time. It is more disappointing for him than it is for me I'm sure. If I was at the game I would cheer louder for him after that.

If our guys are out of gas then that is that but I'm not going to complain because they can't do it. I would complain if I thought they weren't trying. I'm still not so sure they can't do it, by the way. Weren't people saying the bullpen was gassed not long ago?

What I really think would help the team the most right now is huge, cheering crowds. Alas, they aren't going to get that but I think they deserve it right now. If I showed up to play in the biggest games of the year and there was no one in the stands it would not be a boost. This is an observation, not a cue for excuses.

ChiSoxGal85
09-26-2012, 10:28 AM
I attended yesterday's game, but was too tired to post until now. It was a disappointing game for sure. Liariano is too inconsistent to count on. Beckham blew a throw and it hurt, but the offense didn't have anything yesterday - three solo HRs made the game close. Youk, AJ, Paulie, Alexei and Dunn just have not hit much, with some periodic exceptions. I didn't mind Beckham being left in to bat for the last out; he has been somewhat of a hotter hand of late - nor did I mind him swinging at the first pitch. Heck, Konerko hit his homer on Perez' first pitch.

We sat in the lowers near RF even though we had upper deck tickets; no one was checking the tickets at all, and there were plenty of open seats. I was surprised the upper deck was even open. My daughter and I had a fun time hanging out together, enjoying some tasty chicken and cheese quesadillas and fries, and mingling with other fans. A day at the Cell is still better than a good day at work.

I'm uptight about this week, but trying to stay positive - mostly by trying not to think about it much. :cool:

supportsox
09-26-2012, 11:15 AM
I don't post as much as I'd like to sometimes because it just doesn't seem very welcome.

I feel the same way.

Domeshot17
09-26-2012, 11:43 AM
And I couldn't agree less. I already posted how claiming the team overacheived all year was a lazy cop-out showing a poor understanding of the team. That was before I saw he posted Viciedo was "below average talent". Saying he had a poor year (essentially as a rookie) is one thing, but claiming he is not talented shows extreme ignorance. People either don't understand why the team loses or want to justify their doom-and-gloom predictions, so they say "Welp, the team just doesn't have talent." That was bull**** when it was used as justification for the team not making the playoffs in 2010, it was bull**** when people said the Sox had no talent last year after improving an 88-win team (on paper). It's bull**** this year. Far more players underacheived than overachieved for the Sox this year.

Im not going to keep up this same arguement with you, at some point guys are what they are. For this year, Tank is a below average LF. Could he get better, possibly. But I just refuse to keep up this false hope train of thought you have that guys like Tank, most specifically Beckham and others are supremely talented players.

Last year, TALENTED players such as Rios, Dunn etc. had very down years. That was obvious. Peavy was hurt etc. This year, Peavy, Sale, Dunn, Rios, AJ have all had normal to better than normal years. To say this team is underacheiving is purely laughable. Quintana pitched out of his mind, De Aza had as good of a year as he could, Nate Jones was sensational, Reed as good as expected etc.

Floyd had a down year, and Danks was hurt. Outside that, where could we have realistically expected more guys to produce better than they did?

kittle42
09-26-2012, 11:47 AM
Floyd had a down year, and Danks was hurt. Outside that, where could we have realistically expected more guys to produce better than they did?

You're dead on, Dome.

How can a team that already has 82 wins and was picked to finish well worse than this (and itself even admitted that getting to the postseason wasn't a benchmark for success this year) be underachieving?

They're just not that talented. If anything, they overachieved to get where they are.

Lip Man 1
09-26-2012, 11:48 AM
Dome:

My overall thoughts on the "talent" issue are that this team has talent, a lot of it actually and in fact some guys have played above what they should be doing, but that's true with all teams.

The problem to me seems to be they don't have ENOUGH talent, the bottom third of the roster is poor and that is catching up with them.

As JB has posted often, guys are tired...Robin has to go with them because even beat up and tired they are better than the Olmedo's and Lopez's of the world.

That is the real flaw with the club this year in my opinion. No real depth, top heavy in talent.

Lip

guillensdisciple
09-26-2012, 11:49 AM
It's as simple as this for me. If the sox get behind at any point in these 8 games, we will be out of the hunt.

This series against the rays is too much of a sore thumb, and we're not exactly convincing against anyone else.

Lip Man 1
09-26-2012, 11:57 AM
The way the team is hitting right now, against the Ray pitchers, it's going to be difficult.

They have to turn it around, regain some confidence today.

Lip

guillensdisciple
09-26-2012, 11:58 AM
I pointed this out earlier, but I hope the sox brass does not convince us that this is the building point for something better. We have been had for the whole "just add a little and we'll be great" bit multiple times it feels like. I don't know what kind of changes this team needs but If you want to build off of this, you must add talent that is good not just bits and pieces. In other words, either open up your pocket books or settle with what you have and don't say you'll add a little bit.

This team does not have enough to sustain yearly campaigns of winning the division or World Series. The only way we can improve is if we make drastic improvement by adding substantial quality.

Lets also take into account that the Tigers have been playing without a great hitter all year, and will probably add other substantial talent.

The white sox will drop peavy, youkilis, and a few other players on a team that is already deeply flawed. While they are not god's of baseball, the White Sox must have a strategy that can either replace these players in a way that truly makes us ready to be great or just say you'll go with what you have or rebuild. Just don't make promises of grandeur by adding fringe players.

kittle42
09-26-2012, 12:04 PM
I pointed this out earlier, but I hope the sox brass does not convince us that this is the building point for something better. We have been had for the whole "just add a little and we'll be great" bit multiple times it feels like. I don't know what kind of changes this team needs but If you want to build off of this, you must add talent that is good not just bits and pieces. In other words, either open up your pocket books or settle with what you have and don't say you'll add a little bit.

This team does not have enough to sustain yearly campaigns of winning the division or World Series. The only way we can improve is if we make drastic improvement by adding substantial quality.

Lets also take into account that the Tigers have been playing without a great hitter all year, and will probably add other substantial talent.

The white sox will drop peavy, youkilis, and a few other players on a team that is already deeply flawed. While they are not god's of baseball, the White Sox must have a strategy that can either replace these players in a way that truly makes us ready to be great or just say you'll go with what you have or rebuild. Just don't make promises of grandeur by adding fringe players.

As long as the rest of the teams in this division remain mediocre, I think the Sox will feel they are fine with this half-assed band-aid approach every season.

Lip Man 1
09-26-2012, 12:19 PM
Unfortunately I think Kittle is correct with his post. You wonder what the attitude could be if they were in the East or West divisions.

I suspect there is a theme of basically, 'just win the division and see what happens in the playoffs...' that runs through the organization.

The problem though is the Sox aren't even making the playoffs with enough regularity to test that assumption out.

Lip

kittle42
09-26-2012, 12:27 PM
Unfortunately I think Kittle is correct with his post. You wonder what the attitude could be in they were in the East or West divisions.

I suspect there is a theme of basically, 'just win the division and see what happens in the playoffs...' that runs through the organization.

The problem though is the Sox aren't even making the playoffs with enough regularity to test that assumption out.

Lip

Right, and the one time they *did* win the division and then have postseason success, they didn't limp in - they were the best damn team in baseball.

TheOldRoman
09-26-2012, 12:32 PM
Im not going to keep up this same arguement with you, at some point guys are what they are. For this year, Tank is a below average LF. Could he get better, possibly. But I just refuse to keep up this false hope train of thought you have that guys like Tank, most specifically Beckham and others are supremely talented players.

Last year, TALENTED players such as Rios, Dunn etc. had very down years. That was obvious. Peavy was hurt etc. This year, Peavy, Sale, Dunn, Rios, AJ have all had normal to better than normal years. To say this team is underacheiving is purely laughable. Quintana pitched out of his mind, De Aza had as good of a year as he could, Nate Jones was sensational, Reed as good as expected etc.

Floyd had a down year, and Danks was hurt. Outside that, where could we have realistically expected more guys to produce better than they did?For this year. FOR. THIS. YEAR. Nobody would argue that Tank put up great numbers this year. However, he is in his first full season and is 23 years old. You are arguing that he is not talented, which is insanely false. Nothing he has done in his career suggests that he is "below average talent". If you think that, you haven't been paying attention. Now, do very talented players always step in and hit .280 with 35 homers? No, they generally don't do so in their first full year in the majors at age 23. So, if you are stating that he didn't have a good year (which you did, though shrouded in silliness), you would be correct. But to say "he had a bad year, so he blows and has no talent" is wrong. Tank has been a mixed bag largely because his numbers haven't improved over the course of the season, and in fact, his power numbers are way down in the second half. Certainly understandable from a young player, but he arguably hasn't given what could have been reasonably expected of him.

It's the same thing with Beckham. Until a few week ago, he was putting up numbers which were well below his career worst. Your stance has always been that any success he had could be immediately discounted, he has no talent and that is that. The league "figured him out" and he won't succeed because of that. Well, if the league figured him out at age 24, did they figure-him-outer this year? Why did he do worse than the poor numbers he put up last year? Beckham, who most rational posters would argue is not a finished product by any means at this point, was putting up worse numbers than last year, so maybe he could have put up slightly better numbers this year? Even if he didn't live up to his talent, maybe he could have progressed somewhat? That didn't happen.

So, let's look at players who overacheived:
Quintana, AJ, arguably Rios, possibly Nate Jones, and if you really want to go that deep, Santiago, Axelro and Veal.

Players who performed about as expected:
De Aza - based on him being very talented and having circumstance take away past chances to play
arguably Rios
Peavy based on his career numbers and finally being healthy
Crane
arguably Tank
arguably Beckham
arguably Reed, although he has looked far from the best closer prospect in baseball he was touted as by people outside the organization
Sale - He was always expected to be an ace. The only concern was whether or not he could stay healthy, and he has to this point.
Flowers
Myers
Dunn - although his average and OBP are far below anything he put up outside 2011.

Players who performed worse than could have been reasonably expected:
Konerko - This is due largely to injuries, but he is clearly a different hitter since June. His power numbers are way down, as he has kept his average where it is due to hitting singles. Nobody expected him to finish the year hitting .390, but we could have hoped for better than .266/.329/.446 with 11 homers in the second half.
Beckham - Whether or not he figured it out this year, his numbers through August shouldn't have been notably worse than previous numbers
Thornton - Before his recent stretch, he hasn't been the same pitcher as in past years
Ramirez - His average, OBP and homers are all career worsts
Youkilis - He is surely breaking down, but so much so that he is having far-and-away the worst year of his career?
Danks - injured early on, and pitched poorly because of it.
Floyd - worst numbers he has put up since becoming a fulltime starter. He was injured a few times and didn't get one of his patented hot streaks, which he had gotten each season from 2008-2011.
Humber - Last year he may have had a career year, but he was 28 so it's not like he is over the hill. Few expected him to put up a sub 4 ERA, but he could have been counted on to eat innings and put up an ERA below 6.44.

The fact that some people were dumb enough to think the Sox would lose 90-100 games doesn't mean the team overachieved. They got some overacheivers this year (which they didn't really have last year), and lots of guys who actually played up to their potential. But it's easier to say "Nope, I wasn't wrong. Nobody could have expected them to be here." And that's essentially what you did about 2008, claiming the team wasn't that good and wasn't a "real" contender once making the playoffs. That, of course, ignored the fact that we lost Contreras, had to start Vazquez in game one and missed the real AL MVP for the last month of the season and the playoffs.

34 Inch Stick
09-26-2012, 12:52 PM
I think Tank compares pretty favorably right now to a guy like Delmon Young. Young has a little bit better average. Tank is better in the field. I think that is some talent and Tank is not a finished product. I would hope for better plate discipline (probably won't be much better), an increase in power (not unreasonable) and a better approach to each at bat.

Lip Man 1
09-26-2012, 12:55 PM
Kittle:

My opinion on this issue is pretty well known. I don't care if the Sox go "all in" and raise the payroll to 150 million a year or 'blow it up' and start over but I do think they have to stop trying to play both ends against the middle. I don't know if you can in fact 'rebuild and contend.'

I understand that historical forces would cause the organization a nightmare if they were to just say "we're rebuilding" I get that, but if the Sox feel that is the approach they must take, they have to have the guts to do so regardless of what fans or the media think.

I'd prefer the former approach but I would understand if they took the second option.

I'm not blaming Kenny by the way, like Noneck says, he takes orders too. He doesn't have the ultimate power but it is a fact that in the 11 seasons before this one since Kenny has been G.M. the approach for right or wrong has led to an average Sox yearly record of 84.77 wins and only two postseason appearances.

Lip

hawkjt
09-26-2012, 02:07 PM
After 24 hours, I have cooled off,and realize that with 8 games,the Sox are still tied for for 1st,and could be in 1st by themselves by the end of tonite. Yes,the Rays are imposing,but the Tigers have 6 road games left,and they stink on the road,period.

Win tonite,Sox....and find some wood for the rest of the year.

FielderJones
09-26-2012, 03:02 PM
I didn't mind Beckham being left in to bat for the last out; he has been somewhat of a hotter hand of late - nor did I mind him swinging at the first pitch. Heck, Konerko hit his homer on Perez' first pitch.

I never mind if a player swings at the first pitch, if that pitch is belt-high over the middle of the plate (which was the case with Beckham). Hitting successfully is a process which starts out with picking out a good pitch to hit. Sometimes the only good pitch a batter gets is the first pitch.

Batters need to change it up and not get into predictable patterns or pitchers will take advantage. "Working the count" is useless if you work yourself into an 0-2 count.

mahagga73
09-26-2012, 06:34 PM
AWESOME POST .. I couldn't agree more ..
Rumor has it Kenny is going to be President, Hahn Gm.

mahagga73
09-26-2012, 06:35 PM
Dome:

My overall thoughts on the "talent" issue are that this team has talent, a lot of it actually and in fact some guys have played above what they should be doing, but that's true with all teams.

The problem to me seems to be they don't have ENOUGH talent, the bottom third of the roster is poor and that is catching up with them.

As JB has posted often, guys are tired...Robin has to go with them because even beat up and tired they are better than the Olmedo's and Lopez's of the world.

That is the real flaw with the club this year in my opinion. No real depth, top heavy in talent.

LipYes so true, they have an awful bench . It seems like every time they have a chance to steal a win O Hudson or Jordan Danks is the best they have to send up.

Brian26
09-26-2012, 07:31 PM
Instead of asking if the team wants a title, maybe we should ask if the fans want it. Flame away.

This is correct, which illustrates how insane it for someone to show up and start lecturing people that the Sox lost today because "the fans don't want it bad enough"

With all respect due you as a moderator, I feel you have taken my post out of context.
.....

It seems I angered you and I apologize if that's the case.

:rolling:

All you've done is humor me. I appreciate the entertainment.

Hopefully the Sox fans "want it bad enough tonight". <---- That's not "out of context", is it?