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View Full Version : *Official* 9-19 Cy Chen blanks bats; KC 3 SOX 0 Postgamer


Frater Perdurabo
09-19-2012, 10:02 PM
What an embarrassment.

doublem23
09-19-2012, 10:02 PM
Well that sucked.

Eh, win the series tomorrow and it's all good.

amsteel
09-19-2012, 10:02 PM
1-12 w/RISP

All other points of discussion are moot

PS: Nice game Alejandro!

guillensdisciple
09-19-2012, 10:02 PM
Many many scoring opportunities. The end will be on us. I don't think the tigers are going to gift us games. We must take care of business.

BainesHOF
09-19-2012, 10:03 PM
Ridiculously bad at-bats by Viciedo and Ramirez with people on base tonight. I'm in favor of both of them sitting tomorrow.

Zakath
09-19-2012, 10:03 PM
Fugly, just absolutely fugly.

JB98
09-19-2012, 10:03 PM
Sale, De Aza and Rios are the only ones who played well tonight.

Viciedo, Ramirez and Youkilis were really, really bad in this game.

doublem23
09-19-2012, 10:03 PM
I don't think the tigers are going to gift us games.

Uh, I'm not sure which Tigers team you have been watching all season.

JB98
09-19-2012, 10:04 PM
Ridiculously bad at-bats by Viciedo and Ramirez with people on base tonight. I'm in favor of both of them sitting tomorrow.

Viciedo, yes. Ramirez, no.

You can't play Olmedo at SS in the pennant race.

samurai_sox
09-19-2012, 10:04 PM
Chen is a free agent at the end of the season, can some NL team PLEASE sign him the hell away from this division?

Zakath
09-19-2012, 10:05 PM
Chen is a free agent at the end of the season, can some NL team PLEASE sign him the hell away from this division?

Preferably someone not on our schedule.

tstrike2000
09-19-2012, 10:05 PM
Awesome!!

BainesHOF
09-19-2012, 10:05 PM
Viciedo, yes. Ramirez, no.

You can't play Olmedo at SS in the pennant race.

You're right, but Ramirez deserves to sit. Maybe play two people at second tomorrow?

Soxman219
09-19-2012, 10:05 PM
Better get a victory tomorrow, the Tigers have another long homestand and the Sox still gotta go out west to play LAA. They won't give us any favors. Win tomorrow!

ChiSoxGal85
09-19-2012, 10:05 PM
What an embarrassment.
Yep. Lead down to 2. I hate that.

russ99
09-19-2012, 10:09 PM
We all saw this coming, let's change a few things up for a similar guy tomorrow.

1-11 RISP + 10 team LOB + zero homers = no runs.

This team has to figure out to score without the homer to get anywhere in the playoffs, if we make them.

JB98
09-19-2012, 10:10 PM
You're right, but Ramirez deserves to sit. Maybe play two people at second tomorrow?

LOL. No disagreement about Ramirez's poor showing tonight. He was dreadful with a bat in his hands. But there is no alternative at that position. There is, however, an alternative in LF.

Tragg
09-19-2012, 10:10 PM
We lost. Okay.
But it isn't over until the last out. And there will be higher leverage situations later where a PH is needed. Pinch hitting Hudson, who really shouldn't even be on this roster, is just silly...there are better options.
And please don't move DeAza to LF to make room for the inferior defender Wise in CF.
Didn't matter tonight, but details matter in a close race.

Lip Man 1
09-19-2012, 10:12 PM
Russ:

That's a tall order considering they haven't been able to do that with any regularity over almost 150 games.

11th time in 17 games the garbage Royals staff has held the Sox to three runs or less.

Embarrassing tonight again with runners in scoring position.

Now they have to face the "Hall of Fame" bound "Catfish" Guthrie.

Lip

kittle42
09-19-2012, 10:13 PM
Sit Viciedo tomorrow.

Stop using L/R logic when sitting your starting catcher who hits .417 in 40 ABs against the starter.

That's all.

Frater Perdurabo
09-19-2012, 10:14 PM
I think it's time to adjust the lineup. DeAza looks to be back in sync. Wise has produced surprisingly well, too. Rios is the model of consistency. I want those three at the top of the order. With some speed on the bases, Paulie, Dunn and Youk should see more fastballs.

LF DeAza
CF Wise
RF Rios
1B PK
DH Dunn
3B Youkilis
C AJ
SS Alexei
2B Beckham

Brian26
09-19-2012, 10:19 PM
Perhaps I'm making excuses for Viciedo in LF tonight by saying this. He's played above my expectations this year. With that said, did that bull**** scoreboard in KC cause him to lose that ball as he watched it into his glove? The lights weren't moving, but I can't imagine trying to catch a ball over my shoulder and turning around to see some yellow carnival light advertisement in my face.

Didn't matter in the long run since the Sox couldn't cross the plate once, so they would have lost 1-0 anyway.

Beat Guthrie tomorrow, please.

Lip Man 1
09-19-2012, 10:23 PM
Headline, comments about the Sox method of attack and Manto's comments when told the Sox had to face Guthrie caught my attention. Robin also explains why he sat A.J.:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0920-white-sox-royals-chicago--20120920,0,2763570.story

Lip

RCWHITESOX
09-19-2012, 10:24 PM
Tank started things in the wrong direction with his pop up with the bases loaded and ended it with his poor defense. Poor loss.

cards press box
09-19-2012, 10:24 PM
Yep. Lead down to 2. I hate that.

Tough loss, for sure, but the Sox had won five in a row. They are still going to lose some games the rest of the way. Tell you what, this loss only underscores how important Monday's game against Detroit was.

Find a way to win tomorrow and take this series!

doublem23
09-19-2012, 10:28 PM
That's a tall order considering they haven't been able to do that with any regularity over almost 150 games.


False

gosox41
09-19-2012, 10:29 PM
The inability of the hitters and coaches on this team to make adjustments to below average pitching boggle my mind. What happened to the Jeff Manto magic. Where did all the clutch hitting go around here the last 3 weeks.

Barely beating Detroit and going 2 for 13 with men in scoring position? Winning on 3 solo shots? And worse of all, letting Cy Chen dominate a team full of mostly veteran hitters again?

Where are the adjustments? The 'Oh, he throws to soft excuse' is crap. The freaking guy has a 5.4 ERA for the year. I guarantee, even though the Sox pasted him once, we helped lower it. He'd probably be closer to a 6 ERA in the league. HE IS A BAD PITCHER. Plain and simple.

And facing Guthrie tomorrow. 23 2/3 innings without scoring a run off this guy? Really? That's laughable. Guthrie is better then Chen, but c'mon. This team has issues making adjustments to pitchers that consistently beat them.

How many runs do you think we'll score tomorrow? Probably fewer runs then Liriano has walks is my guess. Heck, I bet they don't score half as many runs as Liriano has walks. Does he throw to soft too?

Watching the Sox offense the last couple of weeks is like watching corpseball all over again. For those who wanted Walker fired, what has Manto done to change the overall results of this teams offense. It is crunch time now. It's nice to eke out these wins, but there is little reason for Bruce Chen to shut us down yet again.

Do the Sox live in Bizarro World? In Bizarro World, bad pitching beats the Sox. In Bizarro World, when the Sox have bases loaded and no one out, Sox hitters automatically think the pressure is on them and immediately hack and flail at the first pitches so we can't score a run. As opposed to reality where a real team of hitters thrives in a bases loaded no out situation knowing the pressure is on the pitcher and don't give up the at bats like a bunch of scared rookies.

How is anyone not frustrated. We finally built a decent lead against Detroit, and we are in serious danger of watching it dwindle to one game while having the mighty KC Royals go 12-6 against us. Pathetic. We play a sub .500 team and achieve a .500 record and we're 5 games up.

Only in Bizarro World. I hope the Sox figure something out tomorrow. The schedule doesn't favor us the rest of the way with or without facing Cy Guthrie.


Bob

doublem23
09-19-2012, 10:30 PM
This is definitely the first team in the history of baseball to go into a slump

guillensdisciple
09-19-2012, 10:32 PM
This is definitely the first team in the history of baseball to go into a slump

The horrible 1 game losing streak, the demon of every competing baseball team.

JB98
09-19-2012, 10:32 PM
This is definitely the first team in the history of baseball to go into a slump

Yeah, they've lost one in a row. It was a bad loss, but still...

EdHerman12
09-19-2012, 10:33 PM
Do a little research...go see how the Tigers have done against "Cy" Chen this season....Go get 'em tomorrow Boys...

JB98
09-19-2012, 10:34 PM
The inability of the hitters and coaches on this team to make adjustments to below average pitching boggle my mind. What happened to the Jeff Manto magic. Where did all the clutch hitting go around here the last 3 weeks.

Barely beating Detroit and going 2 for 13 with men in scoring position? Winning on 3 solo shots? And worse of all, letting Cy Chen dominate a team full of mostly veteran hitters again?

Where are the adjustments? The 'Oh, he throws to soft excuse' is crap. The freaking guy has a 5.4 ERA for the year. I guarantee, even though the Sox pasted him once, we helped lower it. He'd probably be closer to a 6 ERA in the league. HE IS A BAD PITCHER. Plain and simple.

And facing Guthrie tomorrow. 23 2/3 innings without scoring a run off this guy? Really? That's laughable. Guthrie is better then Chen, but c'mon. This team has issues making adjustments to pitchers that consistently beat them.

How many runs do you think we'll score tomorrow? Probably fewer runs then Liriano has walks is my guess. Heck, I bet they don't score half as many runs as Liriano has walks. Does he throw to soft too?

Watching the Sox offense the last couple of weeks is like watching corpseball all over again. For those who wanted Walker fired, what has Manto done to change the overall results of this teams offense. It is crunch time now. It's nice to eke out these wins, but there is little reason for Bruce Chen to shut us down yet again.

Do the Sox live in Bizarro World? In Bizarro World, bad pitching beats the Sox. In Bizarro World, when the Sox have bases loaded and no one out, Sox hitters automatically think the pressure is on them and immediately hack and flail at the first pitches so we can't score a run. As opposed to reality where a real team of hitters thrives in a bases loaded no out situation knowing the pressure is on the pitcher and don't give up the at bats like a bunch of scared rookies.

How is anyone not frustrated. We finally built a decent lead against Detroit, and we are in serious danger of watching it dwindle to one game while having the mighty KC Royals go 12-6 against us. Pathetic. We play a sub .500 team and achieve a .500 record and we're 5 games up.

Only in Bizarro World. I hope the Sox figure something out tomorrow. The schedule doesn't favor us the rest of the way with or without facing Cy Guthrie.


Bob

2012 White Sox: 694 runs
2011 White Sox: 654 runs

Still two weeks left in the season, and the Sox are already well past last year's run total. Take a look at Dunn, Rios and even Beckham. Compare the production this year to last year.

Greg Walker is not missed.

doublem23
09-19-2012, 10:35 PM
By the way, if I read one more of these DUHHHHHHHH, WHAT HAS MANTO DONE THAT WALKER HASN'T posts, I am going to go nuts. Here's what he's done, mother****ers:

Sox rank in AL in RPG:

2012 - 4th
2011 - 11th
2010 - 7th
2009 - 12th

NOT. ROCKET. SCIENCE.

Lip Man 1
09-19-2012, 10:43 PM
This and That:

I agree with some of the things Bob points out. However I still feel Manto is a major improvement over Greg.

Chen has 11 wins this year and a losing record, he has a high ERA. Yet three of his wins (27%) have come against the Sox. Amazing.

Sox are now 12-16 in games where they allow an opponent three runs or less.

That's staggeringly good considering, but it still seems like they've wasted a lot of good pitching performances.

JB:

It's not the loss, it's the loss to a bad pitcher at a crucial time of the season (given the schedule differences in games remaining that the Sox have to play vs. Detroit) that is difficult to take.

I've lived through this scenario once in the last decade, 2003, two games up with 15 to go. That didn't turn out so well.

I'd prefer not to go through it again with a two game lead with 14 games to go. Beating Chen tonight was badly needed considering the success Guthrie has had against the Sox since July.

Lip

slavko
09-19-2012, 10:44 PM
KC left men on 3rd with <2 outs too. Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing a little situational hitting once in a while. Only one game, what the hey, panic anyway. Tank got wall shy there. I'll forget it this one time cos it didn't mean the game.

Get 'em tomorrow.

Lip Man 1
09-19-2012, 10:50 PM
To me and I'm not a stat guy, runs per game is misleading.

In the early part of the new century the Sox had a number of high scoring games and season totals...yet they also had a bunch of games and streaks where they'd get eight runs in a game then the next day one.

That still averages out to 4 1/2 runs a game.

This year for example, they have been shutout now 11 times. Also they have been held to three runs or less in 59 games out of 148 played.

40%.

Just sayin'

Lip

JB98
09-19-2012, 11:14 PM
This and That:

I agree with some of the things Bob points out. However I still feel Manto is a major improvement over Greg.

Chen has 11 wins this year and a losing record, he has a high ERA. Yet three of his wins (27%) have come against the Sox. Amazing.

Sox are now 12-16 in games where they allow an opponent three runs or less.

That's staggeringly good considering, but it still seems like they've wasted a lot of good pitching performances.

JB:

It's not the loss, it's the loss to a bad pitcher at a crucial time of the season (given the schedule differences in games remaining that the Sox have to play vs. Detroit) that is difficult to take.

I've lived through this scenario once in the last decade, 2003, two games up with 15 to go. That didn't turn out so well.

I'd prefer not to go through it again with a two game lead with 14 games to go. Beating Chen tonight was badly needed considering the success Guthrie has had against the Sox since July.

Lip

Chen is not a bad pitcher against the Sox, though, Lip. The Sox have hit him hard a couple times this year, but he still is generally more good than bad when he faces Sox hitters.

Really, the Sox just need to get the hell away from Kansas City. The Royals just eat the Sox alive for whatever reason. Even if Kansas City wins 10-0 tomorrow, I'm going to be happy because the season series with these guys will be over.

Hopefully, Oakland can squeeze one out of Detroit tomorrow. I have a hunch the Sox are gonna play well on the homestand next week. It's just a matter of finding a way to get through this road trip in one piece. The next four days are the hardest four days remaining on the schedule, IMO.

You've got Catfish Guthrie tomorrow, then three road games against a good Angels team. After that, it's 10 games against two clubs the Sox play well against in Cleveland and Tampa Bay. Yes, the Rays have good pitching, but the Sox swept Tampa in May and are 16-10 against them since 2009.

SpartanSoxFan
09-19-2012, 11:15 PM
I'm so sick of that scrub ******* pitching like he is the king of the universe against us. We are reminded yet again that the raw numbers are not everything in this game.

MUsoxfan
09-19-2012, 11:18 PM
Chen would be an $18m/yr pitcher if he only pitched against us. I pencil every Chen start against us as a loss. It frustrating, puzzling but not surprising

DSpivack
09-19-2012, 11:21 PM
To me and I'm not a stat guy, runs per game is misleading.

In the early part of the new century the Sox had a number of high scoring games and season totals...yet they also had a bunch of games and streaks where they'd get eight runs in a game then the next day one.

That still averages out to 4 1/2 runs a game.

This year for example, they have been shutout now 11 times. Also they have been held to three runs or less in 59 games out of 148 played.

40%.

Just sayin'

Lip

What you're describing is variance, and I'm not sure if I have seen that discussed much when looking at teams' run-scoring stats.

JB98
09-19-2012, 11:24 PM
I'm picking Catfish Guthrie up for my fantasy team right now. Players normally implode or get injured when I add them to my roster. Just look at what happened to Anderson in Detroit tonight!

I will try anything to help this White Sox team beat the Royals.

thomas35forever
09-19-2012, 11:35 PM
Ridiculous. Glad I went to the movies tonight instead. Someone give me a reason Guthrie won't hold our bats in check tomorrow.

Saracen
09-19-2012, 11:36 PM
Sit Viciedo tomorrow.

Stop using L/R logic when sitting your starting catcher who hits .417 in 40 ABs against the starter.

That's all.
AJ has a better average this year against Guthrie. Should a team never rest its catcher?

It's 1 loss after a 5 game winning streak. Step off the ledge, we'll get em tomorrow.

johnnyg83
09-20-2012, 12:08 AM
It is just one loss but it's against a high ERA pitcher when your ace is pitching. So it magnifies it.

1-12 with RISP and Guthrie and his 0.00 ERA against the sox tomorrow magnify it even more.

LITTLE NELL
09-20-2012, 05:18 AM
Bases loaded, no outs and we don't score. Viciedo and Ramirez swinging from the heels, horrible. When we didn't score there I knew we would lose.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
09-20-2012, 06:02 AM
Most nauseating loss of the season. The Sox' season against the Royals, condensed into one game.

Thank the good Lord above we only have one more game against these trolls.

SCCWS
09-20-2012, 07:10 AM
By the way, if I read one more of these DUHHHHHHHH, WHAT HAS MANTO DONE THAT WALKER HASN'T posts, I am going to go nuts. Here's what he's done, mother****ers:

Sox rank in AL in RPG:

2012 - 4th
2011 - 11th
2010 - 7th
2009 - 12th

NOT. ROCKET. SCIENCE.

That would lead one to conclude, Manto turned the offense around this year. But Greg Walker goes to Atlanta and their RPG went from 10th to 5th.
My conclusion---hitting coach is not that influential or change just brought improvemnet to both teams.

russ99
09-20-2012, 07:27 AM
That would lead one to conclude, Manto turned the offense around this year. But Greg Walker goes to Atlanta and their RPG went from 10th to 5th.
My conclusion---hitting coach is not that influential or change just brought improvemnet to both teams.

Runs 2011: 654
Runs 2012: 694
Percentage increase so far: 5.76%

HR 2011: 154
HR 2012: 195
Percentage increase so far: 21%

So we're not more efficient scoring runs as we are more efficient hitting homers. And with the increase in homers, you'd expect a like increase in runs, so while we're better hitting homers, we're slightly worse scoring in other situations.

I also wonder what the percentages are for solo-homers vs. multi-run homers. That should be interesting.

I don't blame Manto, although his "aggressive at-bat" approach he was preaching about in spring probably doesn't help, as we're giving pitchers an edge by getting 0-1 or 0-2 in the count way too often.

As with last year, these are the hitters we have, and they're either not astute at situational hitting, or they ignore coaching when at the plate.

slavko
09-20-2012, 07:39 AM
Runs 2011: 654
Runs 2012: 694
Percentage increase so far: 5.76%

HR 2011: 154
HR 2012: 195
Percentage increase so far: 21%



Two words. ADAM. DUNN. Manto or bad year due to appendix? Depends which horse you have in this race. I dunno.

doublem23
09-20-2012, 07:50 AM
Chen would be an $18m/yr pitcher if he only pitched against us. I pencil every Chen start against us as a loss. It frustrating, puzzling but not surprising

That would have made you wrong 40% of the time this season

aryzner
09-20-2012, 08:04 AM
Personally, I'm more annoyed by the "Cy" and "Catfish" nicknames than I am the Sox losing this game.

Maybe that's just me.

CHISOXFAN13
09-20-2012, 08:14 AM
Most nauseating loss of the season. The Sox' season against the Royals, condensed into one game.

Thank the good Lord above we only have one more game against these trolls.

The Olmedo game against KC a couple weeks ago was the worst for me.

Frustrating nonetheless.

TheFrisbee
09-20-2012, 08:49 AM
.191 Batting Average with RISP in the last two weeks sure isn't going to get it done.

OmahaSoxFan
09-20-2012, 09:20 AM
.191 Batting Average with RISP in the last two weeks sure isn't going to get it done.

The Sox will not make the postseason if that stat holds up through the last two weeks of the season... they can't succeed leaving guys on base at this stage of the season. Doesn't matter how great of pitching you get (starting, bullpen) if you can't plate runners in scoring position. Hopefully this is just a blip and the Sox start getting some clutch hitting.

Also another thing I have noticed lately, this team seems not to be able to get a 2 out hit to save its life with someone on base - while the Royals have done it all year against the Sox - just frustrating as all hell to watch.

SI1020
09-20-2012, 09:20 AM
That would lead one to conclude, Manto turned the offense around this year. But Greg Walker goes to Atlanta and their RPG went from 10th to 5th.
My conclusion---hitting coach is not that influential or change just brought improvemnet to both teams. Maybe Walker's time with the Sox was just up, in baseball and in life relationships grow stale. Maybe Atlanta's hitters are more suited to Walker's coaching style. I'm glad Walker is gone and feel that Manto has done well with the Sox this year. I'm also happy for Walker that he has had success with his new team in his home state. A win win for both parties I'd say.

SephClone89
09-20-2012, 09:28 AM
Personally, I'm more annoyed by the "Cy" and "Catfish" nicknames than I am the Sox losing this game.

Maybe that's just me.

Amen.

salty99
09-20-2012, 09:29 AM
We all agree brutal game and nice to see Robin say Wise is starting tonight. Now move on and win tonight!

jdm2662
09-20-2012, 09:48 AM
Personally, I'm more annoyed by the "Cy" and "Catfish" nicknames than I am the Sox losing this game.

Maybe that's just me.

Don't tell that to our boy Hawk. You will deflate his ego and limit his importance to the White Sox.

Chen did recently pitch eight shutout innings against the awesome Tigers recently. Gutherie has also been pretty solid since getting it together. His ERA with the Royals is down to 3.13. He's also a former first round draft pick. But, since he's had a so so career, and was pretty bad for a good part of the year, this gets over looked.

I didn't have full attention to the game, but it seemed to me Chen kept the ball down the entire game. And yes, I saw Rameriz's and Viciedo's swings when the bases were loaded. Quite terrible. Both should be benched, but the Sox don't have a valid SS to replace Ramierz...

The Sox had a margin for error after winning Monday. The margin just got shorter, that's all.

kittle42
09-20-2012, 10:00 AM
AJ has a better average this year against Guthrie. Should a team never rest its catcher?

It's 1 loss after a 5 game winning streak. Step off the ledge, we'll get em tomorrow.

I'm not on a ledge. I fully expect this team to win the division.

As far as resting your catcher, of course I have no issue with that. AJ did just rest on Sunday, though.

AJ career v. Guthrie: 36 PA .333/.353/.515
Flowers: Never faced

AJ career v. Chen: 40 PA .417/.462/.583
Flowers: 8 PA .125

If I had to sit him v. one of the two, it would be Guthrie, but it's not an open-and-shut case, I admit.

SCCWS
09-20-2012, 10:02 AM
A's are due to take a game from Tigers. Pitching matchup seems to favor them toinight. If White Sox can win tonight maybe they can move the lead back to 3

SI1020
09-20-2012, 10:32 AM
Nicknames for KC pitchers who inexplicably handle our hitters bothers me not. Losing to those same pitchers bothers me a lot. Especially now in crunch time. If the Sox had merely played the dynamic Royals even this year, the division race would be all but over.

soxfan1965
09-20-2012, 11:38 AM
I like how Mark Gonzalez put it in his article "Sigh...Chen does it again" in today's Chicago Tribune. Must have been reading these forums as other beat writers. :smile:

tsoxman
09-20-2012, 11:54 AM
Perhaps I'm making excuses for Viciedo in LF tonight by saying this. He's played above my expectations this year. With that said, did that bull**** scoreboard in KC cause him to lose that ball as he watched it into his glove? The lights weren't moving, but I can't imagine trying to catch a ball over my shoulder and turning around to see some yellow carnival light advertisement in my face.

Didn't matter in the long run since the Sox couldn't cross the plate once, so they would have lost 1-0 anyway.

Beat Guthrie tomorrow, please.
Fangraphs has his WAR at .1. Not horrendous but not very good either. That is Juan Pierre territory.

hawkjt
09-20-2012, 12:03 PM
Tough pill to swallow last nite.
I am all for Robin ordering a bunt the next time we have a man on third and nobody out...anything,to shake up our mojo. Our inability to get a slow grounder or sac fly with a man on third with less than two out the last few weeks is maddening.
The two cubans really angered me with their swinging from the heels approach last nite with the sacks packed. Alexei should have bunted after Tank messed up.
1-12 with RISP is typical of this team of late....they have lost all semblance of ''clutch'' for some reason.

Youk,Dunn,Alexei,Tank and Gordo were bad.
I am glad that Robin is starting Wise,who continues to have the hottest bat outside of Alex.
Some fans on here continue to hammer on DWise,despite all evidence that he has been our 2nd best hitter the last 2 weeks....ridiculous...they would rather lose games than admit the obvious,that they are wrong about DWise,it seems.

Today is yet again,the biggest day of the season for the Sox. Have to pray that the A's regain their game vs the Tigers this afternoon,and that the Sox perform a fricking miracle and get to Guthrie. Hang on boys...could be a bumpy ride.

Lip Man 1
09-20-2012, 12:52 PM
1965:

Beat writers have no say in headline creating.

--------------------

I was told Robin was visibly upset last night after the game with the way the Sox approached Chen. He didn't seem to show it to the media though. I wonder if Robin has ever gone off on the club in private at anytime this year.

We know what Ozzie would have done and after awhile that starts to get tuned out....but I was curious if anyone has ever heard of Robin losing his temper at the team? (If he has he's kept it very close to the vest and Robin seems to be the type of guy that it takes a lot to get him angry aka Chuck Tanner, but when it happens you don't want to be around him...)

Lip

WhiteSox5187
09-20-2012, 01:00 PM
1965:

Beat writers have no say in headline creating.

--------------------

I was told Robin was visibly upset last night after the game with the way the Sox approached Chen. He didn't seem to show it to the media though. I wonder if Robin has ever gone off on the club in private at anytime this year.

We know what Ozzie would have done and after awhile that starts to get tuned out....but I was curious if anyone has ever heard of Robin losing his temper at the team? (If he has he's kept it very close to the vest and Robin seems to be the type of guy that it takes a lot to get him angry aka Chuck Tanner, but when it happens you don't want to be around him...)

Lip

Ventura expressed his frustration to the media as much as he probably ever will when he said "It looked like we were running a pop up drill out there."

hawkjt
09-20-2012, 01:20 PM
Robin should have ordered Tank to bunt,and then Alexei to bunt....just to keep them in line.

aryzner
09-20-2012, 01:21 PM
If Robin did or has ever gone off in the clubhouse, I'm glad he's kept it private. We don't need any more of what we all know Ozzie would have done.

wassagstdu
09-20-2012, 02:45 PM
By the way, if I read one more of these DUHHHHHHHH, WHAT HAS MANTO DONE THAT WALKER HASN'T posts, I am going to go nuts. Here's what he's done, mother****ers:

Sox rank in AL in RPG:

2012 - 4th
2011 - 11th
2010 - 7th
2009 - 12th

NOT. ROCKET. SCIENCE.

Well, here are a few more numbers

......... Rank ....... Runs (162 games)
2012 ..... 5 ......... 760
2011 .... 11 ......... 654
2010 ..... 7 ......... 752
2009 .... 12 ......... 724
2008 ..... 5 ......... 810
2007 .... 14 ......... 693
2006 ..... 3 ......... 868
2005 ..... 9 ......... 741
2004 ..... 3 ......... 865
2003 ..... 8 ......... 791

Walker
Avg ...... 8 ......... 766

The 2012 Runs number is extrapolated to 162 games. The 2012 rank is the current rank (5, not 4). The Manto runs scored number is running very close to the Walker average and considerably below Walker's peak years. Of course it's all apples and oranges because the personnel change every year. But the same is true comparing 2011 to 2012: The addition of DeAza and turnaround comebacks by Rios and Dunn make it a different team. Still there is no evidence that dumping Walker had any positive effect.

NOT. SO. SIMPLE.

WhiteSox5187
09-20-2012, 02:54 PM
Well, here are a few more numbers

......... Rank ....... Runs (162 games)
2012 ..... 5 ......... 760
2011 .... 11 ......... 654
2010 ..... 7 ......... 752
2009 .... 12 ......... 724
2008 ..... 5 ......... 810
2007 .... 14 ......... 693
2006 ..... 3 ......... 868
2005 ..... 9 ......... 741
2004 ..... 3 ......... 865
2003 ..... 8 ......... 791

Walker
Avg ...... 8 ......... 766

The 2012 Runs number is extrapolated to 162 games. The 2012 rank is the current rank (5, not 4). The Manto runs scored number is running very close to the Walker average and considerably below Walker's peak years. Of course it's all apples and oranges because the personnel change every year. But the same is true comparing 2011 to 2012: The addition of DeAza and turnaround comebacks by Rios and Dunn make it a different team. Still there is no evidence that dumping Walker had any positive effect.

NOT. SO. SIMPLE.

Well you might be able to argue that Dunn and Rios' turn around (and maybe Beckham's improvement the past month) is evidence of the positive effect that Walker's departure had.

I do think that's it not that simple. I have said this last year and previous years, it is entirely possible that Greg Walker was not the problem and might not have even been part of the problem, but he wasn't part of the solution either.

doublem23
09-20-2012, 03:23 PM
Well, here are a few more numbers

......... Rank ....... Runs (162 games)
2012 ..... 5 ......... 760
2011 .... 11 ......... 654
2010 ..... 7 ......... 752
2009 .... 12 ......... 724
2008 ..... 5 ......... 810
2007 .... 14 ......... 693
2006 ..... 3 ......... 868
2005 ..... 9 ......... 741
2004 ..... 3 ......... 865
2003 ..... 8 ......... 791

Walker
Avg ...... 8 ......... 766

The 2012 Runs number is extrapolated to 162 games. The 2012 rank is the current rank (5, not 4). The Manto runs scored number is running very close to the Walker average and considerably below Walker's peak years. Of course it's all apples and oranges because the personnel change every year. But the same is true comparing 2011 to 2012: The addition of DeAza and turnaround comebacks by Rios and Dunn make it a different team. Still there is no evidence that dumping Walker had any positive effect.

NOT. SO. SIMPLE.

The White Sox rank 4th (they did last night and still do today) in the AL in RUNS PER GAME, which is the more useful of the two. Boston has scored 8 more runs than the White Sox have. They've also played 2 more games. Put 2 and 2 together, hombre.

And I use the league rank because it shows the number outside of a vaccuum, what good does it do to show just the raw number with no context of league averages? The league average in runs per game is down almost a 1/2 run since just the mid '00s.

REALLY. ****ING. SIMPLE*.

*requires basic understanding of math

Hitmen77
09-20-2012, 03:52 PM
Perhaps I'm making excuses for Viciedo in LF tonight by saying this. He's played above my expectations this year. With that said, did that bull**** scoreboard in KC cause him to lose that ball as he watched it into his glove? The lights weren't moving, but I can't imagine trying to catch a ball over my shoulder and turning around to see some yellow carnival light advertisement in my face.

Didn't matter in the long run since the Sox couldn't cross the plate once, so they would have lost 1-0 anyway.

Beat Guthrie tomorrow, please.
Fangraphs has his WAR at .1. Not horrendous but not very good either. That is Juan Pierre territory.

Ouch. That color is painful to read!

SI1020
09-20-2012, 03:54 PM
Well, here are a few more numbers

......... Rank ....... Runs (162 games)
2012 ..... 5 ......... 760
2011 .... 11 ......... 654
2010 ..... 7 ......... 752
2009 .... 12 ......... 724
2008 ..... 5 ......... 810
2007 .... 14 ......... 693
2006 ..... 3 ......... 868
2005 ..... 9 ......... 741
2004 ..... 3 ......... 865
2003 ..... 8 ......... 791

Walker
Avg ...... 8 ......... 766

The 2012 Runs number is extrapolated to 162 games. The 2012 rank is the current rank (5, not 4). The Manto runs scored number is running very close to the Walker average and considerably below Walker's peak years. Of course it's all apples and oranges because the personnel change every year. But the same is true comparing 2011 to 2012: The addition of DeAza and turnaround comebacks by Rios and Dunn make it a different team. Still there is no evidence that dumping Walker had any positive effect.

NOT. SO. SIMPLE. I'd say overall the last 5 years weren't so hot.

Nellie_Fox
09-20-2012, 03:55 PM
Ouch. That color is painful to read!And done by a mod. :dunce:

Hitmen77
09-20-2012, 03:58 PM
And done by a mod. :dunce:

Actually, it looks like the color was added to the quote in the reply.

Nellie_Fox
09-20-2012, 04:04 PM
Actually, it looks like the color was added to the quote in the reply.Right you are. I didn't click enough "go back to original" buttons on quotes. Sorry Brian.

Noneck
09-20-2012, 04:10 PM
And done by a mod. :dunce:

Brians post was altered, you dunced the wrong guy.

wassagstdu
09-20-2012, 04:52 PM
The White Sox rank 4th (they did last night and still do today) in the AL in RUNS PER GAME, which is the more useful of the two. Boston has scored 8 more runs than the White Sox have. They've also played 2 more games. Put 2 and 2 together, hombre.

And I use the league rank because it shows the number outside of a vaccuum, what good does it do to show just the raw number with no context of league averages? The league average in runs per game is down almost a 1/2 run since just the mid '00s.

REALLY. ****ING. SIMPLE*.

*requires basic understanding of math

If you think the few numbers you cited provide any evidence of your contention that Manto has had a significant effect on Sox run production then you need some basic understanding of statistics. Using league average carries an implicit assumption about the causes of the decrease in runs, namely that they affect all teams equally -- or that they affect the Sox equally with the rest of the league. How much is due to new parks or to other teams decreasing PED use (which of course was always zero for the Sox)? But even accepting all of your points, I still stand by my conclusion. There is no evidence that Greg Walker was the problem, or that Jeff Manto provides any more solution. Maybe Manto helped Dunn, but Rios' turnaround is likely due mainly to (a) moving to right field, and (b) a more upright stance (which Walker helped him with).

Now if we have players praising Manto like D Wise praised the Yankees' hitting coach then I would have no problem accepting your hypothesis. But I haven't seen it.

doublem23
09-20-2012, 05:01 PM
Now if we have players praising Manto like D Wise praised the Yankees' hitting coach then I would have no problem accepting your hypothesis. But I haven't seen it.

Dunn came out very early in the year praising Manto's approach and how it helped him regain form

gosox41
09-20-2012, 10:15 PM
By the way, if I read one more of these DUHHHHHHHH, WHAT HAS MANTO DONE THAT WALKER HASN'T posts, I am going to go nuts. Here's what he's done, mother****ers:

Sox rank in AL in RPG:

2012 - 4th
2011 - 11th
2010 - 7th
2009 - 12th

NOT. ROCKET. SCIENCE.

Neither is it rocker science to see that during the month of September, we probably rank lower. I don't have the stats, but I've seen enough bad baseball to know that the September production of this team has dropped.

And last I checked we're still playing for something, so it might be a good time to not lose 4 of 6 to a team that's 15 games under .500 mostly due to poor offense....oh wait a second.



Bob

gosox41
09-20-2012, 10:20 PM
To me and I'm not a stat guy, runs per game is misleading.

In the early part of the new century the Sox had a number of high scoring games and season totals...yet they also had a bunch of games and streaks where they'd get eight runs in a game then the next day one.

That still averages out to 4 1/2 runs a game.

This year for example, they have been shutout now 11 times. Also they have been held to three runs or less in 59 games out of 148 played.

40%.

Just sayin'

Lip


To paraphrase Hawk, don't tell me how much they score, but when they score them.

It's September and we have a 2 game lead. Now would be a good time to score them, that is unless you like ending your baseball season on a sour note. And to hopefully not start off on a tangent, yes the Sox have exceed expectations. But when you have a 3 game lead with 16 left, it still hurts to blow it. But if people here want to rationalize it away, feel free.

I agree with Thibs: "Do. Your. Job."


Bob

gosox41
09-20-2012, 10:23 PM
That would lead one to conclude, Manto turned the offense around this year. But Greg Walker goes to Atlanta and their RPG went from 10th to 5th.
My conclusion---hitting coach is not that influential or change just brought improvemnet to both teams.


I can see Beckham needing more help from a hitting coach then Dunn or Rios. Wasn't Walker saying last year that Rios needed to adjust his hands. Maybe he didn't say it in a nice enough tone. Wasn't part of Dunn's woes due to a sick child. Maybe Manto whispered sweet nothings into Rios ear, or maybe Rios had some sort of much needed attitude adjustment and realized he needs to be more coachable.

Keep in mind I'm no advocating for Walker. But the new boss seems to be pretty similar to the old boss.


Bob