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Brian26
09-12-2012, 10:41 PM
Love the typical Sox meaningless comeback at the end.

:hawk
"Alvin Dark invented that meaningless comeback, and it won the A's three straight world championships."

Bucky F. Dent
09-12-2012, 10:42 PM
:angry::angry:

guillensdisciple
09-12-2012, 10:42 PM
Robin Ventura, come on now.

Chicago5oooh
09-12-2012, 10:43 PM
Someone get Robin a copy of baseball for dummies...

JB98
09-12-2012, 10:43 PM
Dear Robin,

Next time, use the major-league bullpen.

Thanks,

JB

all*star quentin
09-12-2012, 10:43 PM
Discuss

Danielgosox38
09-12-2012, 10:44 PM
Wake me up when September ends. :(:

Brian26
09-12-2012, 10:44 PM
Someone get Robin a copy of baseball for dummies...

Robin's got Parent, Cooper and McEwing on the bench next to him, so pitching changes shouldn't be all that big of a mystery. I don't understand what the problem is.

amsteel
09-12-2012, 10:44 PM
It sucks being Detroit's bitch

Soxman219
09-12-2012, 10:44 PM
:raincloud::raincloud::raincloud::raincloud::rainc loud::darkclouds:

Pretty much how I felt when it was 8-1.

Boondock Saint
09-12-2012, 10:44 PM
In the last week, the Sox have scored a total of six non-home run runs. They can't string hits together or execute with RISP for ****.

CHISOXFAN13
09-12-2012, 10:45 PM
If Ventura got lost on the way to the park tomorrow, I'd be fine with it.

esbrechtel
09-12-2012, 10:45 PM
Disappointed that Hudson had that last at bat. I really would have loved to have flowers or beckham up there...

DoItForDanPasqua
09-12-2012, 10:45 PM
There are seven billion people in the world. Of them, I hate Jose Valverde the most.

Chicago5oooh
09-12-2012, 10:46 PM
Robin's got Parent, Cooper and McEwing on the bench next to him, so pitching changes shouldn't be all that big of a mystery. I don't understand what the problem is.

Am imagining a Three Stooges scenario where they all bumped their heads and forgot baseball 101.

PalehosePlanet
09-12-2012, 10:46 PM
Aptly titled game thread.

The team has surprised me all year long: earlier mostly for the good, lately mostly for the bad.

IMO hope is all we have now, because me eyes and heart tell me we're dead. Please prove me wrong guys.

Oh, and Robin, any time you want to get your head out of your ass, is okay by me.

EDIT: Except it's 9/12, not 9/3, the date in the title needs fixed.

Soxman219
09-12-2012, 10:46 PM
I have a ticket to tomorrow's game and I don't know if I should go or not.

Lip Man 1
09-12-2012, 10:47 PM
Well...too little, too late (again...)

Back to 'home run or nothing' it seems. (Wonder if Robin regrets having Youk bunt last night?

That's 11 losses in their last 16 games...big time September swoon.

If the Tigers didn't already feel this after last night they sure as hell do now. With Verlander going tomorrow they should have complete confidence they can take this thing with two weeks to go and if it comes down to a playoff game in Detroit? The stats have the answer for that one.

Sox are 5-12 against the Tigers. Un-****ing- believeable.

Six more wins for a "winning" season. 20 chances remaining.

Lip

OmahaSoxFan
09-12-2012, 10:47 PM
Well at least the Sox are still the sole leaders in the AL Central for one more night. Kudos to Gavin for doing a commendable job tonight starting, but you had to see a bullpen implosion coming sooner or later - the way Robin and Coop have been managing it. The offense woke up, but a little too late in this one.

I am not going to give up on this team, but they are sure gravitating further into the late season doldrums, with no way out it seems. Hoping for Sale to pitch the game of his life tomorrow... That may be the Sox only hope.

thomas35forever
09-12-2012, 10:47 PM
Bullpen management is starting to become an issue. Imagine how much differently tonight would have gone if the AAA guys weren't out there late. Shouldn't the guys whom we've trusted all year be up in that spot? They're doing more harm than good. Robin needs to realize that.

DickAllen72
09-12-2012, 10:48 PM
Robin Ventura certainly isn't a good in game manager. He's brutal.

The best thing about him is he isn't Ozzie. Imagine what this team could have accomplished with a real manager the past few seasons.

lpneck
09-12-2012, 10:49 PM
Since the Sunday night game against the Tigers and Verlander, the Sox have lost six games. In five of them, the game ended with the go-ahead or tying run at the plate. (The only exception was the 18-9 debacle.)

The murderers row the Sox have sent to the plate in those high leverage, clutch, 2-out in the 9th situations?

9/2 Orlando Hudson
9/7 Dan Johnson
9/9 Ray Olmedo
9/11 Alexei Ramirez
9/12 Orlando Hudson

amsteel
09-12-2012, 10:49 PM
Bullpen management is starting to become an issue. Imagine how much differently tonight would have gone if the AAA guys weren't out there late. Shouldn't the guys whom we've trusted all year be up in that spot? They're doing more harm than good. Robin needs to realize that.

It's been an issue for a while. They're just losing games cause of it now.

arKnaD7
09-12-2012, 10:50 PM
Tomorrow feels like a must win. Sox have lost 9 of 10 to Detroit. Can't except to win the division doing that.

KenBerryGrab
09-12-2012, 10:51 PM
Agreed on Hudson, although he was 3-7 vs. Valverde. Too bad that hot dog doesn't bat. He'd be hitting the dirt fast.

JB98
09-12-2012, 10:52 PM
I have a ticket to tomorrow's game and I don't know if I should go or not.

Go. You'll regret it if you don't.

The Sox don't play meaningful games in September every year. And tomorrow is a HUGE game.

ChiSoxFann
09-12-2012, 10:55 PM
Just got home-left after the Rios DP ball. :angry:

Awful managing by Robin The last two nights. I will never understand the Youkilis bunt and Septimo being allowed to throw that meatball to Fielder. After ball 3 my dad said to me they need to put him on and bring Jones in for Young. The Tigers were already up 3-1 and i know Prince was licking his chops at that 3-1 pitch.

A ton of pressure on Sale tomorrow. Hope he can deliver. A 4-6 home stand after a 1-6 road trip would be disaster.

Also, I really wish we could have an inning like Detroit's 5th tonight. The bunt actually worked for them, got 3 singles (only one hit hard) and got 3 runs to take control of this one.

russ99
09-12-2012, 10:55 PM
Hope they can snap out of this funk of all phases of the game (and in the dugout) and give us one more late shot at this.

At worst, we're tied after tomorrow with an easier schedule than the Tigers on paper. Hopefully they can get one over on Verlander which would pick up the whole team and stop the downward spiral.

Sad that if we could even play .500 baseball against the Royals, we would be way ahead of Detroit right now.

Lip Man 1
09-12-2012, 10:56 PM
LPNeck:

That's incredible. Didn't realize that. Speechless.

I wonder if Kenny realizes this and if he doesn't have some regrets.

Lip

kittle42
09-12-2012, 11:00 PM
Yes, the offense and the relievers did not execute.

Yes, Robin - again - did not put the team in the best situation to succeed.

It seems everything that made this team a half-assed effort before the season - manager with zero experience, questionable pen, relying on guys like Phil Humber, poor bench - have come back to drag them down.

DoItForDanPasqua
09-12-2012, 11:02 PM
Since the Sunday night game against the Tigers and Verlander, the Sox have lost six games. In five of them, the game ended with the go-ahead or tying run at the plate. (The only exception was the 18-9 debacle.)

The murderers row the Sox have sent to the plate in those high leverage, clutch, 2-out in the 9th situations?

9/2 Orlando Hudson
9/7 Dan Johnson
9/9 Ray Olmedo
9/11 Alexei Ramirez
9/12 Orlando Hudson

This makes me sad.

Tragg
09-12-2012, 11:04 PM
I know it likely wouldn't make any difference, but can we please play our best players? This is no time to coddle veterans and keep the bench happy - if you aren't happy with Ws in a pennant race, you're hopeless anyway.
We've been waiting all year for Beckham to do something; so he hits homers 2 days in a row, and, wham, to the bench he goes, Ozzie-style. If he's injured, then I apologize.
And is Axe now a short reliever??

JB98
09-12-2012, 11:05 PM
Since the Sunday night game against the Tigers and Verlander, the Sox have lost six games. In five of them, the game ended with the go-ahead or tying run at the plate. (The only exception was the 18-9 debacle.)

The murderers row the Sox have sent to the plate in those high leverage, clutch, 2-out in the 9th situations?

9/2 Orlando Hudson
9/7 Dan Johnson
9/9 Ray Olmedo
9/11 Alexei Ramirez
9/12 Orlando Hudson

It could be worse. At least one of the five is a legitimate MLB player.

Soxman219
09-12-2012, 11:06 PM
It will be hilarious if the Tigers still don't make the postseason the way the Sox are playing.

F4L
09-12-2012, 11:06 PM
Damnit, I'm trying to embed a youtube video.

Eh forget it, it will depress everyone.

JB98
09-12-2012, 11:07 PM
I know it likely wouldn't make any difference, but can we please play our best players? This is no time to coddle veterans and keep the bench happy - if you aren't happy with Ws in a pennant race, you're hopeless anyway.
We've been waiting all year for Beckham to do something; so he hits homers 2 days in a row, and, wham, to the bench he goes, Ozzie-style. If he's injured, then I apologize.
And is Axe now a short reliever??

Omogrosso instead of Jones and Septimo instead of Veal in the seventh. That's your ballgame right there.

russ99
09-12-2012, 11:07 PM
This makes me sad.

Does suck, but when your bench is Flowers, Hudson, Jordan Danks, Wise (pressed into everyday duty), the great Rey Olmedo and some AAA call- ups, what should we expect?

Still a flawed roster but hopeful our good players can carry us into the postseason.

Lip Man 1
09-12-2012, 11:08 PM
Tragg:

I have to agree with you and Kittle, Robin's moves the past 10 days have been mystifying to say the least, asking Ramirez to bunt when he's had a hot game, asking Youk to bunt, pitching Reed in a game with a five run lead then not using his best bullpen guys the following two nights (Sucktimo anyone?), benching Beckham.

I'm at a loss to explain it and I wish someone in the media would ask him specifically what his line of reasoning was.

Lip

Soxman219
09-12-2012, 11:09 PM
Go. You'll regret it if you don't.

The Sox don't play meaningful games in September every year. And tomorrow is a HUGE game.

I know, of course I'm going. I'm just depressed about this loss.

DoItForDanPasqua
09-12-2012, 11:12 PM
Does suck, but when your bench is Flowers, Hudson, Jordan Danks, Wise (pressed into everyday duty), the great Rey Olmedo and some AAA call- ups, what should we expect?

Still a flawed roster but hopeful our good players can carry us into the postseason.

Your first paragraph is exactly why I'm sad.

WhiteSox5187
09-12-2012, 11:13 PM
I just got home from the game and hoo-boy! Where to begin?

Well, I will start with the obvious, Brian Omogrosso and Leyson Septimo have no business being on a major league roster let alone in high pressure situations in the middle of September during a pennant race. Secondly, Ventura's inexperience is beginning to show. He has just made no shortage of bad moves of late.

In the fifth inning this started with Boesch's single to third, I really thought Youkilis should have had that ball. From where I was sitting it looked like it was hit almost right at him and he let it go right underneath him.

By my scorecard I have the Tigers scoring five runs with two outs, I also seem to recall Jackson's RBI single in the fifth and Dirks' single in the seventh coming on 0-2 counts. That's maddening. The less said about the bullpen management in the seventh the better.

I didn't mind Axelrod being out there for the 8th because that looked like garbage time anyways but was it just me or did Rios kind of dog it on Avila's double? Like he was thinking there would be fan interference? That's the impression I got from where I was sitting but maybe I was wrong.

I thought Floyd looked very good until the 5th and I was a bit disappointed they pulled him so quickly but maybe he was on a pitch count and I was also in the upper deck so maybe he was getting away with pitches. It was also a bit irritating that he again gave up the lead as soon as we got one for him but to be honest out of all the things to get mad at that is the smallest right now.

Lip Man 1
09-12-2012, 11:20 PM
5187:

Gonzo said Cooper is Septimo's biggest supporter but I can't understand what the pitching coach sees in him. He's awful and that's putting it mildly. I think it was JB who had his late inning - pressure stats and they were about as bad for a pitcher as I've ever seen.

Lip

JB98
09-12-2012, 11:20 PM
Tragg:

I have to agree with you and Kittle, Robin's moves the past 10 days have been mystifying to say the least, asking Ramirez to bunt when he's had a hot game, asking Youk to bunt, pitching Reed in a game with a five run lead then not using his best bullpen guys the following two nights (Sucktimo anyone?), benching Beckham.

I'm at a loss to explain it and I wish someone in the media would ask him specifically what his line of reasoning was.

Lip

Septimo has faced 11 batters in high-leverage situations this year. Those 11 batters are 3-for-6 with five walks and two HRs.

It's a miracle he's recorded three outs in those spots, frankly.

BainesHOF
09-12-2012, 11:22 PM
On top of it, Septimo wasn't even warmed up.

Where the heck was Veal?!

russ99
09-12-2012, 11:24 PM
In the fifth inning this started with Boesch's single to third, I really thought Youkilis should have had that ball. From where I was sitting it looked like it was hit almost right at him and he let it go right underneath him.

...was it just me or did Rios kind of dog it on Avila's double? Like he was thinking there would be fan interference? That's the impression I got from where I was sitting but maybe I was wrong.

Youk is running on vapors. He had zero range on one hit close to him last night too. If we had any decent backup at 3B, I'd say have him DH.

And Rios had a similar play yesterday too, but he had farther to run so he could have been shading too far to the right. Most fans in my section thought he dogged it, though. Ditto on the play in CF that DeAza got there a little late...

Again, we're really lagging at all three phases and managing. Need a big win tomorrow to get that behind us.

WhiteSox5187
09-12-2012, 11:25 PM
Oh and one more thing, on Cabrera's RBI single that snuck through the infield in the fifth, I thought that Hudson was playing waaay to close to the bag on that. I think there were two strikes again and certainly two outs and while I get you want to keep Jackson close to the bag, I don't think you need to keep him THAT close.

kittle42
09-12-2012, 11:27 PM
After all those years of bitching about how much Ozzie played the bench, look what can end up happening when you have to play the starters every single day.

Note: Ozzie's approach wasn't right, and Robin was kinda left with no choice.

WhiteSox5187
09-12-2012, 11:27 PM
5187:

Gonzo said Cooper is Septimo's biggest supporter but I can't understand what the pitching coach sees in him. He's awful and that's putting it mildly. I think it was JB who had his late inning - pressure stats and they were about as bad for a pitcher as I've ever seen.

Lip

Septimo has faced 11 batters in high-leverage situations this year. Those 11 batters are 3-for-6 with five walks and two HRs.

It's a miracle he's recorded three outs in those spots, frankly.

During the first Detroit series I saw where his opponents batting average was something like .087 but I believe he also had 8 walks to 6 strikeouts in 7 innings pitched. I suspect he has good stuff but he has ZERO control.

JB98
09-12-2012, 11:31 PM
During the first Detroit series I saw where his opponents batting average was something like .087 but I believe he also had 8 walks to 6 strikeouts in 7 innings pitched. I suspect he has good stuff but he has ZERO control.

Opponents are batting .087 (2-for-23) against Septimo in non-pressure situations. He can get people out when there is nothing at stake.

Just not ready for the show.

Lip Man 1
09-12-2012, 11:35 PM
Robin was asked about why Septimo and here is his answer for what it's worth:

He said he didn't want to use Veal that early, said Prince Fielder already had seen him a few times, and he wanted to save Thornton as well.

So his only lefty alternative was Septimo (although given the numbers he has when the game is on the line - which I'm sure the Sox have - it might not have been a bad idea to go with a right hander and say 'screw' this lefty-lefty garbage.)

Lip

kittle42
09-12-2012, 11:39 PM
'screw' this lefty-lefty garbage.)

Seriously - I mean, don't you kind of defeat the purpose when the guy you are bringing in is horrible?

LoveYourSuit
09-12-2012, 11:59 PM
Well, I did my part being out there last night and tonight.

**** this team.

I was worried not knowing what do on Thursday if Sale vs Verlander or Bears vs Packers.

Thank you for making my choice. Will only give the Sox the occasional commercial glimpse but no more.

JB98
09-13-2012, 12:02 AM
Robin was asked about why Septimo and here is his answer for what it's worth:

He said he didn't want to use Veal that early, said Prince Fielder already had seen him a few times, and he wanted to save Thornton as well.

So his only lefty alternative was Septimo (although given the numbers he has when the game is on the line - which I'm sure the Sox have - it might not have been a bad idea to go with a right hander and say 'screw' this lefty-lefty garbage.)

Lip

Geez. It was the seventh inning.

cards press box
09-13-2012, 12:12 AM
Robin Ventura certainly isn't a good in game manager. He's brutal.

He never managed at any level before this season. He is going to have some growing pains. To expect him to be exempt from that is just unrealistic. Ventura, I think, will be a fine manager in the long run.

Just got home-left after the Rios DP ball.

Yeah, I left after the same double play ball. Tomorrow night is a big game. Chris Sale has an opportunity to get a big win for the Sox in the heat of the pennant race against the team nipping at the Sox' heels. Let's hope he does.

kittle42
09-13-2012, 12:16 AM
He never managed at any level before this season. He is going to have some growing pains. To expect him to be exempt from that is just unrealistic.

Correct, which is why he never should have been hired to manage in 2012, but that is not his fault.

johnnyg83
09-13-2012, 12:33 AM
Sorry, four ****ing minor leaguers or vets who had no business participating in a game that meant something: Hudson, Septimo, Omogrosso and Axlerod.

ROBIN! This is when we play our best players! ****.

Cat Thief
09-13-2012, 12:56 AM
Forget it

DSpivack
09-13-2012, 01:26 AM
Sorry, four ****ing minor leaguers or vets who had no business participating in a game that meant something: Hudson, Septimo, Omogrosso and Axlerod.

ROBIN! This is when we play our best players! ****.

Hudson I can understand, as you want a lefty-heavy lineup facing Scherzer. But once he is out of the game, why not bring in Beckham?

Jollyroger2
09-13-2012, 01:52 AM
Well...Detroit's win the other night cancelled out the Sox win...now they've gained one and the best we can hope for is a split. So much for the vaunted home field advantage people were hoping for.

5-11 since the 6-game winning streak. This team is going in the wrong direction fast.

LITTLE NELL
09-13-2012, 05:26 AM
USCF is a nice ballpark but it has turned the White Sox into a one dimensional team, everybody is up there swinging for the fences.
KW has to build up the farm system with good contact hitters. I'm amazed that TCM and the Tank have not injured themselves like Dunn with oblique strains.

Chez
09-13-2012, 07:30 AM
Robin really set himself up for some [legitimate] second guessing. Our starters just aren't getting the team deep enough into games (though Floyd hasn't pitched in a few weeks so he gets a pass). Rather than using 2 or 3 relievers to cover 2-3 innings, it seems like we are using 6 to cover 4 innings every night. The core guys in the pen wear down from pitching or warming up every damn night and you are left with Septimo and Omogrosso having to get important outs in pressure situations. Personally, I would have gone with Thornton to face Fielder last night and would have put up a power bat for Hudson in the 9th.

I like our chances with Sale tonight. Get a win and those who have jumped off the bandwagon will be begging to get back on.

slavko
09-13-2012, 08:16 AM
Sorry, four ****ing minor leaguers or vets who had no business participating in a game that meant something: Hudson, Septimo, Omogrosso and Axlerod.

ROBIN! This is when we play our best players! ****.

Ax has given us some nice starts, but out of the pen, he's brutal. Bullpen coulda kept it close, didn't.

GABP
09-13-2012, 08:19 AM
He never managed at any level before this season. He is going to have some growing pains. To expect him to be exempt from that is just unrealistic.

There are growing pains, and then there is utter stupidity. Every single person on this message board could have managed the past 2 games better.

asindc
09-13-2012, 08:22 AM
9/3?

October26
09-13-2012, 08:27 AM
Robin really set himself up for some [legitimate] second guessing. Our starters just aren't getting the team deep enough into games (though Floyd hasn't pitched in a few weeks so he gets a pass). Rather than using 2 or 3 relievers to cover 2-3 innings, it seems like we are using 6 to cover 4 innings every night. The core guys in the pen wear down from pitching or warming up every damn night and you are left with Septimo and Omogrosso having to get important outs in pressure situations. Personally, I would have gone with Thornton to face Fielder last night and would have put up a power bat for Hudson in the 9th.

I like our chances with Sale tonight. Get a win and those who have jumped off the bandwagon will be begging to get back on.

I'm still on the Sox bandwagon (been on it for 40+ years now) and I'm not planning to jump off anytime soon. Gavin pitched well early last night and the game had a great pace to it (moving along quickly) but then the wheels fell off. I give the Sox credit for trying to battle back but in the end it was just another tough loss.

It's been a rough week for me and lots of other parents of CPS students. I've been scrambling every day to find care for my son during the CTU Strike. The Sox are my respite from the challenges of every day life; despite the losses the last couple of nights, I'll be tuning in again tonight and rooting for our boys. GO SOX!

Tragg
09-13-2012, 08:33 AM
Ventura's tightening up badly in this last month. Game after game just some clownish decisions, "playing it safe" with bunting (when bunting accomplishes the opposite). And then using our AAAA spot starter in a high-leverage bullpen situation?
My guess it's just his significant inexperience in the dugout.

doublem23
09-13-2012, 08:49 AM
Ventura's tightening up badly in this last month. Game after game just some clownish decisions, "playing it safe" with bunting (when bunting accomplishes the opposite). And then using our AAAA spot starter in a high-leverage bullpen situation?
My guess it's just his significant inexperience in the dugout.

Maybe he's just trying to rattle the cage a bit considering entering this series the Sox had lost 7 games in a row to the Tigers. Not like what they were doing beforehand was working. Unfortunately, almost every decision has backfired.

:dunno:

Best news of the day is this is the last time we have to see these guys all year.

Procol Harum
09-13-2012, 08:53 AM
:dunno:

Best news of the day is this is the last time we have to see these guys all year.

Unless we tie and there's a one-game playoff...I don't think any Sox fan would like those odds after what we've seen in the last ten games or so.

Tragg
09-13-2012, 08:54 AM
Batting .144 hitters in key situations in the 9th is a heck of a way to shake the cage.
We know he's got a lousy bench. That, along with 3B, was the glaring weakness of this team in May. Williams fixed 3B. He wasn't able to fix the bench, and really made it worse with the Liriano trade (Liriano's done okay and we needed pitching help).
Bench or not, there was no reason to play Hudson tonight anyway.
We still have games with the Royals...they've been almost as rough as the Tigers. Heck if the Royals can get a couple of pitchers over the winter, they should win this division next year.

doublem23
09-13-2012, 08:55 AM
Unless we tie and there's a one-game playoff...I don't think any Sox fan would like those odds after what we've seen in the last ten games or so.

Yeah, but that's what people said about the Twins in '08. I'll worry about the tiebreaker if we get there.

doublem23
09-13-2012, 08:57 AM
Batting .144 hitters in key situations in the 9th is a heck of a way to shake the cage.

Hudson's got a nice track record against Valverde, though.

Lip Man 1
09-13-2012, 08:58 AM
Robin defends his bullpen usage:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-ventura-stands-by-soxs-beleaguered-bullpen-20120912,0,1331870.story

Lip

ChiSoxGirl
09-13-2012, 09:55 AM
Dear Robin,

Next time, use the major-league bullpen.

Thanks,

JB

Bullpen management is starting to become an issue. Imagine how much differently tonight would have gone if the AAA guys weren't out there late. Shouldn't the guys whom we've trusted all year be up in that spot? They're doing more harm than good. Robin needs to realize that.

Watching last night's game, I said aloud, "Go get Veal Parmesan, Robin" when Fielder was due up, knowing full well he has retired every left-handed batter he's faced since he joined the club. Instead, he calls for Septimo (:?:) who served up a meatball to that fat marshmallow and, just like that, it was 3-1 Detroit.

As JB said to me last night, the Sox are paying guys like Crain and Thornton the big bucks to retire the opponent late in games. Why turn to the likes of Septimo and Axelrod in a game that means so much?!

Tragg
09-13-2012, 09:59 AM
Hudson's got a nice track record against Valverde, though.

That was probably, though, back when he was a good hitter.

Harry Chappas
09-13-2012, 10:07 AM
Maybe this was covered already but why in the hell was Beckham on the bench last night? He's a streaky hitter and you sit him when he happens to be on a tear? I know Scherzer is a lefty, but I think Hudson is batting .189 vs. lefties so what's the point?

Also, at what point do we give Veal a chance to face more than a batter or two particularly when the options are a bunch of AAA arms like Septimo?

I don't like losing but at least lose with your best guys.

Ventura is caving under the pressure of a pennant race. It's a shame because this is a golden opportunity for the Sox and they're blowing it.

Last question - what is Dunn's status? I thought I heard he was playing last night. I've got to question a guy's toughness if he can't play through a "strain" when the season may be on the line.

doublem23
09-13-2012, 10:09 AM
That was probably, though, back when he was a good hitter.

Hudson was never that good of a hitter, just good for a 2B.

Anyways, here's their career numbers against each other broken down by year...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/batter_vs_pitcher.cgi?batter=hudsoor01&pitcher=valvejo01#gotresults&batter=hudsoor01&pitcher=valvejo01&min_year_game=2009&max_year_game=2012&post=1&ajax=1&submitter=1

:dunno:

Not the most perplexing call of the night, that's for sure.

doublem23
09-13-2012, 10:12 AM
Last question - what is Dunn's status? I thought I heard he was playing last night. I've got to question a guy's toughness if he can't play through a "strain" when the season may be on the line.

Dunn's status remains day-to-day, yesterday he said he wasn't feeling worse, but not better.

And cut the "tough guy" bull****, you ever tried to swing a bat at a 90 MPH pitch with an oblique strain? Do you even know what a muscle strain is, doctor? John Danks has a shoulder strain and they ultimately needed to open him up and poke around. He's not playing 16-inch with a bunch of fat slobs, he's a professional baseball player playing in the best league in the world. If he can't swing without pain, he does the team no good.

Domeshot17
09-13-2012, 10:26 AM
Another night, another questionable decision process by Ventura. I love what he has done as a whole, but man, 2 games in the last week, 2 out, the tying or winning run at the plate, and he lets Hudson and Olmedo, by far our 2 worst hitters, hit.

Tonight almost becomes a must win. I realize we can lose it and still be in alright position, but this team has zero killer instinct and that is troublesome. It is like 2008 all over again.

kittle42
09-13-2012, 10:28 AM
And cut the "tough guy" bull****, you ever tried to swing a bat at a 90 MPH pitch with an oblique strain? Do you even know what a muscle strain is, doctor? John Danks has a shoulder strain and they ultimately needed to open him up and poke around. He's not playing 16-inch with a bunch of fat slobs, he's a professional baseball player playing in the best league in the world. If he can't swing without pain, he does the team no good.

A-MEN.

Christ, I hate when any Chicago fanbase goes on about "toughness." ****ing Grabowski garbage.

asindc
09-13-2012, 10:28 AM
Another night, another questionable decision process by Ventura. I love what he has done as a whole, but man, 2 games in the last week, 2 out, the tying or winning run at the plate, and he lets Hudson and Olmedo, by far our 2 worst hitters, hit.

Tonight almost becomes a must win. I realize we can lose it and still be in alright position, but this team has zero killer instinct and that is troublesome. It is like 2008 all over again.

If it is, I'll take our chances after Oct. 3, but I get your point.

kittle42
09-13-2012, 10:29 AM
Another night, another questionable decision process by Ventura. I love what he has done as a whole, but man, 2 games in the last week, 2 out, the tying or winning run at the plate, and he lets Hudson and Olmedo, by far our 2 worst hitters, hit.

I'll say this about the Olmedo issue - the only other choice was Gimenez.

But if he hadn't played musical chairs with his bench earlier in the game, we'd have had one more (better) man available.

palehozenychicty
09-13-2012, 10:33 AM
This team has been resilient all year. They're not very deep, and that's why they haven't been able to get momentum. It catches them in key moments, like the pen's performance and bench options.

If they can win today, they've shortened the last leg. It'll be a matter of attrition going forward.

Harry Chappas
09-13-2012, 10:38 AM
Dunn's status remains day-to-day, yesterday he said he wasn't feeling worse, but not better.

And cut the "tough guy" bull****, you ever tried to swing a bat at a 90 MPH pitch with an oblique strain? Do you even know what a muscle strain is, doctor? John Danks has a shoulder strain and they ultimately needed to open him up and poke around. He's not playing 16-inch with a bunch of fat slobs, he's a professional baseball player playing in the best league in the world. If he can't swing without pain, he does the team no good.

He isn't on the IR. Unless I missed it, he hasn't gone under the knife so it doesn't sound like the training staff thinks it's 'serious.' They're baseball players not Navy SEALs so let's cut with the hyperbole about what they're asked/paid to do. And let's be honest here, baseball players have a well-earned reputation for being china dolls so I'm not so inclined to give them all the benefit of the doubt. The Bears couldn't field a team tonight if every player suffering from a strain/sprain decided they couldn't go.

And not that it matters, but I HAVE faced a 90 MPH fastball with a herniated disc (L5,S1) and completed a triathlon with a sprained MCL. Don't assume that everybody who posts here is some living embodiment of SNL's "Super Fans."

doublem23
09-13-2012, 10:49 AM
He isn't on the IR. Unless I missed it, he hasn't gone under the knife so it doesn't sound like the training staff thinks it's 'serious.' They're baseball players not Navy SEALs so let's cut with the hyperbole about what they're asked/paid to do. And let's be honest here, baseball players have a well-earned reputation for being china dolls so I'm not so inclined to give them all the benefit of the doubt. The Bears couldn't field a team tonight if every player suffering from a strain/sprain decided they couldn't go.

And not that it matters, but I HAVE faced a 90 MPH fastball with a herniated disc (L5,S1) and completed a triathlon with a sprained MCL. Don't assume that everybody who posts here is some living embodiment of SNL's "Super Fans."

Oh, give me a ****ing break. The simple fact of the matter is, if he can't swing the bat without pain, and so far there is no indication he can, then trotting him out there TO DUUUUUUURR PROOFE HOW TUFF HE IS HEEEEERP is ****ing stupid. The are various levels of strains, a strain can be as simple as an overextension of the muscle fibers and it can be as serious as an actual tear of the muscle, I don't know where Dunn is, but if he says he can't go, considering he's played 150+ games per year for 8 of his first 9 seasons in pro baseball, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt he knows and understand his own limits when it comes to injury. Not to mention, Danks injury originally didn't require surgery but weeks of stagnant rehab ultimately forced that decision. I can't imagine why the Sox would try the least invasive rehab options in the middle of a playoff race first.

The football analogy is also stupid, as football is a completely different sport than baseball. Yes, football players play through some injuries every week, they also only play one game a week. And of that one, single game, there's only about 10-15 minutes of actual, physical game play (and of course, most players only play 1 side of the field, so you're really talking 5-7 minutes per week. WHAT MODERN DAY WARRIORS, THESE MEN OF THE GRIDIRON ARE!!!!). Baseball is a everyday grind, and when you have a muscle strain, it doesn't just magically get better by doing the same thing that caused/aggrevated the injury. At this point, Dunn has essentially missed the same amount of that every SUPER TOUGH GUY football player has built into his week automatically.

And I'm assuming you're the living embodiment of the Super Fans because that's what you're doing. The Sox have these guys called "doctors" and "licensed medical professionals" who actually work for them.

No doubt, if Dunn was up there swinging away at 50% or whatever he's at right now, there would be a chorus of posters here questioning the logic behind playing a guy who is obviously hurt.

#1swisher
09-13-2012, 10:55 AM
Why do I have to see ****ing Green Bay Packers in the White Sox postgame thread?!

**** the Packers!

SI1020
09-13-2012, 11:09 AM
Why do I have to see ****ing Green Bay Packers in the White Sox postgame thread?!

**** the Packers! Sorry. I should have found some of his U of I photos. Just can't lighten the place up no matter how hard I try.

Nellie_Fox
09-13-2012, 11:13 AM
Why do I have to see ****ing Green Bay Packers in the White Sox postgame thread?!

**** the Packers!I don't know why we have to always have football discussions at all on a White Sox board, but it seems we do. Learn to deal with it.

Golden Sox
09-13-2012, 11:15 AM
In the early 1970's we went to a White Sox Brewers game in Milwaukee. We sat next to an older man whos father had been at the 1919 World Series. He said his father couldn't believe the Reds beat the White Sox in the World Series. He felt that something just wasn't right . When it came out that the Series was fixed he wasn't surprised. I was at last nights game and when Fielder came up in the 7th inning I just assumed either Veal or Thornton would be brought in. Instead Septimo pitched to Fielder and the result was a 3 run homer. I thought maybe Ventura felt he was over using Veal/ Thornton. Then later in the game he brought in Veal. Ventura/Cooper decided that Septimo was a better match up against Fielder and the game was lost because of it. They seem to have falling in love with this Septimo which baffles me because he can't get anybody out. Their decision last night baffles me so much I can't help but wonder, was that game fixed last night? Are we revisiting 1919 all over again?

Harry Chappas
09-13-2012, 11:23 AM
Oh, give me a ****ing break. The simple fact of the matter is, if he can't swing the bat without pain, and so far there is no indication he can, then trotting him out there TO DUUUUUUURR PROOFE HOW TUFF HE IS HEEEEERP is ****ing stupid. The are various levels of strains, a strain can be as simple as an overextension of the muscle fibers and it can be as serious as an actual tear of the muscle, I don't know where Dunn is, but if he says he can't go, considering he's played 150+ games per year for 8 of his first 9 seasons in pro baseball, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt he knows and understand his own limits when it comes to injury. Not to mention, Danks injury originally didn't require surgery but weeks of stagnant rehab ultimately forced that decision. I can't imagine why the Sox would try the least invasive rehab options in the middle of a playoff race first.

The football analogy is also stupid, as football is a completely different sport than baseball. Yes, football players play through some injuries every week, they also only play one game a week. And of that one, single game, there's only about 10-15 minutes of actual, physical game play (and of course, most players only play 1 side of the field, so you're really talking 5-7 minutes per week. WHAT MODERN DAY WARRIORS, THESE MEN OF THE GRIDIRON ARE!!!!). Baseball is a everyday grind, and when you have a muscle strain, it doesn't just magically get better by doing the same thing that caused/aggrevated the injury. At this point, Dunn has essentially missed the same amount of that every SUPER TOUGH GUY football player has built into his week automatically.

And I'm assuming you're the living embodiment of the Super Fans because that's what you're doing. The Sox have these guys called "doctors" and "licensed medical professionals" who actually work for them.

No doubt, if Dunn was up there swinging away at 50% or whatever he's at right now, there would be a chorus of posters here questioning the logic behind playing a guy who is obviously hurt.

No one can determine someone else's pain threshold, not even, what are they called again? Oh yeah, "licensed medical professionals." Does Dunn sit and wait until he's 100%? An oblique strain may trouble him for the remainder of the year, so I guess it's up to him.

SI1020
09-13-2012, 11:24 AM
All I was trying to do was show a tough Grabowski and from Chicago no less, not have a football discussion. Pfft over everyone's head I guess or perhaps too obtuse for consumption. I'll take it down.

CHISOXFAN13
09-13-2012, 11:28 AM
No one can determine someone else's pain threshold, not even, what are they called again? Oh yeah, "licensed medical professionals." Does Dunn sit and wait until he's 100%? An oblique strain may trouble him for the remainder of the year, so I guess it's up to him.

The issue is he came back too quick from it the first time and made it worse. I don't think anyone wants that to happen again with 20 games still left. If two or three extra days means he can play the rest of the season without pain, then I'm all for it.

Nellie_Fox
09-13-2012, 11:30 AM
In the early 1970's we went to a White Sox Brewers game in Milwaukee. We sat next to an older man whos father had been at the 1919 World Series. He said his father couldn't believe the Reds beat the White Sox in the World Series. He felt that something just wasn't right . When it came out that the Series was fixed he wasn't surprised. I was at last nights game and when Fielder came up in the 7th inning I just assumed either Veal or Thornton would be brought in. Instead Septimo pitched to Fielder and the result was a 3 run homer. I thought maybe Ventura felt he was over using Veal/ Thornton. Then later in the game he brought in Veal. Ventura/Cooper decided that Septimo was a better match up against Fielder and the game was lost because of it. They seem to have falling in love with this Septimo which baffles me because he can't get anybody out. Their decision last night baffles me so much I can't help but wonder, was that game fixed last night? Are we revisiting 1919 all over again?Think about it. The 1919 White Sox (and other teams of that era) were susceptible to bribery because they didn't make very much money. Just how much money would you have to pay players today to make the risk worth it for them? And if you paid them that much, how much would you have to be able to make back in bets to make it profitable? And if you placed bets in the multi-multi-million dollar range on baseball games, would that not attract attention?

In other words, not bloody likley.

kittle42
09-13-2012, 11:32 AM
Their decision last night baffles me so much I can't help but wonder, was that game fixed last night? Are we revisiting 1919 all over again?

Yes, it was, and yes, we are.

hawkjt
09-13-2012, 11:33 AM
Our lefty bullpen guys seem to really struggle to throw strikes to the lefty hitters they are brought in to get out. Of course, our whole staff has been throwing way too many walks lately.....whatsup with that?

Septimo simply cannot be trusted in a pressure situation.
Veal should have been the choice,no matter how many times he had seen him. He gets him out,and the Sox probably win that game.

Now, Sox need a frigging miracle...score some runs off of Verlander.
Sale has to go deep.

Robin has to manage this game like the 7th game of the World Series.
Sox win it, a two game lead is intact,and they have a pulse,despite the 5-11 record in their last 16 games coming into today...which is a miracle in itself. Baseball teams can catch fire....of course the Tigers could also.
Sox need to catch fire,and start hitting the ball,and pitching a bit better.

Floyd looked good...wish Robin had stuck with him another 1+innings.

Chris Sale,time for a Cy Young type of outing...we needya!

doublem23
09-13-2012, 11:49 AM
No one can determine someone else's pain threshold, not even, what are they called again? Oh yeah, "licensed medical professionals." Does Dunn sit and wait until he's 100%? An oblique strain may trouble him for the remainder of the year, so I guess it's up to him.

Seems kind of hypocritical coming from someone who 30 minutes ago was openly questioning his toughness.

kittle42
09-13-2012, 11:56 AM
Seems kind of hypocritical coming from someone who 30 minutes ago was openly questioning his toughness.

Good point.

Swinging a bat is directly related to the oblique. The guy obviously wants to play from his comments on it, but says he can't swing without feeling he's gonna rip the damn muscle from the bone.

What do you want him to do? Play until he's hospitalized?

Some people here *really* loved Tom Waddle too much.

Nellie_Fox
09-13-2012, 12:01 PM
Some people here *really* loved Tom Waddle too much.Doug Plank. Knocked himself out tackling people.

LITTLE NELL
09-13-2012, 12:03 PM
Maybe he's just trying to rattle the cage a bit considering entering this series the Sox had lost 7 games in a row to the Tigers. Not like what they were doing beforehand was working. Unfortunately, almost every decision has backfired.

:dunno:

Best news of the day is this is the last time we have to see these guys all year.

Yeah but we still have 3 left with the Mighty Royals.

Harry Chappas
09-13-2012, 12:07 PM
Seems kind of hypocritical coming from someone who 30 minutes ago was openly questioning his toughness.

I'm frustrated as hell and maybe was a little harsh in my initial post, so for that I apologize. But my point was that the Sox medical staff is probably not going to be the determining factor on when he returns. It's likely up to him alone to determine how much pain he can deal with.

tstrike2000
09-13-2012, 02:20 PM
Who knows what may have happened if Septimo and Axelrod had not pitched.