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BedfordChisox
09-12-2012, 11:45 AM
I will probably get flamed for writing what many will interpret as a "white flag" post, but I just would like to see how many Sox fans might be thinking along the same lines as me. I'm not a frequent poster by any measurement, but I do read the boards daily to pick up info from the many intelligent posters that isn't readily available to those of us outside the Chicago media market.

First and foremost, this has been an incredible season. With all due respect to anybody who was predicting great things at the start of the season, many of us dismissed the "We're going to be in it in September" posters as delusional. My hats off to those that were prescient enough to not only believe that the Sox were going to be successful in 2012, but had the guts to post it here.

Reality check: If we can't beat the Tigers at Comerica, and if we can only manage a split with them at home, we probably need to acknowledge that at this point in the season, the Tigers are the better team. As a baseball fan, I think it is deplorable that, given their talent (and payroll), the Tigers seem incapable of playing ball until after the All-Star break. That's an issue that needs to be addressed in the off-season by Dave Dombrowski, et.al. If I were a fan of that team (I'm not), I would be very disappointed with them, regardless of how it all plays out.

I also believe that the Sox are not currently playing on a level with Tampa, Baltimore, California (or Anaheim... or LA... or LA at Anaheim... whatever the hell they call themselves these days), or Oakland. Accordingly, I don't believe that it is reasonable to believe that, if the Sox don't win the AL Central, they can win a wildcard spot.

I don't intend for all that to sound negative. If the Sox can hold out and make the playoffs, no one would be happier. But what I believe, and what I hope others believe, is that even if the Sox can't hold on, this has been a season unlike any I have experienced with my Sox in my 40+ years as a fan. 2012 has been a hell of a ride, and I think the future is even brighter.

We have a field manager that has come in and taken a confused (and likely frustrated) clubhouse and made the players believe in themselves again. Robin Ventura makes me proud to be a Sox fan. Even with a world championship on his resume, I couldn't say that when his predecessor was running the show.

We have two fine young pitchers in Chris Sale and Jose Quintana. While both may be running out of gas late in the season, this experience will benefit them going forward.

Jake Peavy, though saddled too often with poor offensive support, has been the workhorse we had hoped for when we got him.

I have my concerns about the back half of the rotation (though a healthy John Danks may shore up my confidence), and I am not yet sold on the bullpen, but I think Kenny Williams can work some magic to help in those areas. I do wish Beurlhe was still here (though I agree that the Sox couldn't pay him what the Marlins gave him), and I would much rather have kept Escobar than to have picked up Liriano, but that's just me.

The acquisition of Kevin Youkilis has provided a spark to the team somewhat reminiscent of the Julio Cruz pick-up in 1983. I hope we can hold on to him as I'm not sure what we have waiting in the wings to play 3B.

AJ, Rios and Konerko have all had great seasons. They're like fine wine... getting better with age. Unfortunately, that age is a factor with all three, but they still have productive years left, and we have the time to groom replacements. De Aza is showing signs of becoming one of the premier lead off men in the game as he continues to improve his game. Viciedo has struggled of late, but I hope he develops a la Magglio Ordonez into a feared right-handed hitter. I think Jordan Danks has a solid career ahead of him too.

Ramirez and Beckham are among the best double play combos in the game right now. I hope Gordon can get his hitting straightened out. I think Alexei is a pretty special ballplayer with an incredible future.

Defensively, I love this team.

On the downside, Adam Dunn is the left-handed reincarnation of Dave Kingman. We can't have a .210 hitter batting third in the line-up. Hopefully his strained oblique won't diminish his value as much as his performance has. Thanks for the long home runs, Adam, and congrats on the bounce back season, but it's time for the Sox to upgrade at DH.

Anyway, I harken back to Paul Konerko's comments at the start of the season: "We don't need to make the playoffs for this to be a successful season". Paulie couldn't have said it better. There is a lot of baseball left, and anything can happen, but regardless of the outcome, it is a great time to be a fan of the Chicago White Sox. The organization, top to bottom, is a class operation again, and the future is bright.

Sorry this post is so damn long... I wish I could learn to be succinct.

Frater - I wasn't smashed when I wrote this!

guillensdisciple
09-12-2012, 12:38 PM
Success is winning championships.

Anything else is just a bunch of horse****.

I love baseball and the whitesox, but I also can't stand when we are okay with just being good or average. We pay, and we watch, and like every other fan out there, we hope to see our team win. I expect that every year and perspective is not a good thing to have because it makes you lax.

This is not life, it is a game and a team. I don't need to have perspective when I watch or follow the sox- just results.

The sox have been mediocre since 2005, and it's a repetitive pattern of getting hopes up only to lose it all in September and October.
The only thing that has changed ( at least I think so) since 2005, is my ability to keep calm ( calmer than I used to be) when watching the inevitable and maddening mediocrity. My hopes and beliefs though, have not changed, and I refuse to accept this year as a success if we don't win the thing.

I'll appreciate the year, but I will not sit here and tell you this was the greatest year of my life as a fan. That belongs to 2005 and 2000. Those were the only years I could truly say great baseball was played on the south side. Otherwise, it has been full of mediocrity and disappointment since I came here in 1995.

pudge
09-12-2012, 12:38 PM
You mentioned yourself we have nobody waiting to fill 3B. Peavy is as good as gone. Do we believe Quintana is the real deal? Is Chris Sale going to be another Mark Prior? Look, it's been a great season, but too much changes too quickly in baseball. You just don't know year to year. At this point I'd say major disappointment if this team can't make the post-season considering how much the Tigers have been willing to hand it over, and I have no idea what next year will look like. Remember the 2000 team when the future looked so bright? Well it was five years later and a totally different team that actually delivered. You just never know.

kittle42
09-12-2012, 12:41 PM
I applaud the OP for the optimism, but if management is thinking the same way you are, I fear for 2013.

That being said, I think management is thinking the same way you are, because it would be business as usual.

Fans have shown their dissatisfaction with both ticket prices (primary reason) and this team's general mediocrity despite being in first place (secondary reason) all season. If the same old, same old keeps up, so will this.

Chez
09-12-2012, 12:58 PM
http://cbschicago.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/white-sox-weekly.jpg?w=420


"I'm Chris Rongey, and I approve this message."

Seriously, I love the optimism and agree with many of the points. But for me "perspective" is something I'll try to re-capture after the season is over. I find it increasingly more difficult to keep perspective as we get closer to the finish line in a near dead heat.

WhiteSox5187
09-12-2012, 01:00 PM
I applaud the OP for the optimism, but if management is thinking the same way you are, I fear for 2013.

That being said, I think management is thinking the same way you are, because it would be business as usual.

Fans have shown their dissatisfaction with both ticket prices (primary reason) and this team's general mediocrity despite being in first place (secondary reason) all season. If the same old, same old keeps up, so will this.

And management will continue to blame the fans for not supporting the team.

As interesting as the off season last year was this year's off season will be just as interesting if not more so. We will see if Kenny can pull a rabbit out of the hat again.

Lip Man 1
09-12-2012, 01:47 PM
Kittle has certainly nailed it although I will add that if the Sox can make the post season that will change the equation a tad. If they don't, like in 2003, 2006 and 2010 that adds more fuel to the fire of the fan base.

Lip

doublem23
09-12-2012, 01:53 PM
Considering going into this season, some people were expecting the Sox to kareem into the lower levels of Major League Baseball, and thought the Sox were entering into a period of 90+ loss seasons, so in that regards, this year has been a success. Had you told me in March that on September 12, they would be in 1st place and playing meaningful games, I'd have been ecstatic. I didn't think they'd be quite as bad as some of the people forecasting a baseball apocalypse, but I didn't think they'd be real contenders in the division.

That said, I will be pretty disappointed if they miss the postseason. They've been in 1st place for almost 2/3 of the year now. Doesn't mean **** if you don't finish.

Lip Man 1
09-12-2012, 02:02 PM
Double:

Well said.

Lip

enurb
09-12-2012, 02:08 PM
If we make the playoffs, we can catch fire. We did in 2005 after a very poor finish to the year. There is no dominant AL or even NL team. We can and will compete with any of them. People can point to the Royals and say we can't beat them, therefore we can't beat the top teams. That's baloney. Royals lineup is stacked with great hitters -- Cain, Gordon, Butler, Hosmer, Moustakas, S. Perez. We lost to the Royals -- big deal, get over it.

What we need is:

1. DeAza to return to hitting the ball up the middle.
2. Dunn to return and produce.
3. Robin to retire the bunt. Try a hit and run if you must meddle with the game.
4. Sale, Peavy, and Quintana to run the table.
5. The pen to hold up.

If we don't make the playoffs, I'll consider the team to have under-achieved. What are we, 8 or 9 games over .500. That's setting the bar pretty low.

Nellie_Fox
09-12-2012, 02:27 PM
...some people were expecting the Sox to kareem into the lower levels...

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRglInlSFiL1RnidsloRTUVRaZrgfJBU EDqLUq-aAYXONa8kw93 Huh? I was a pretty high-level player!

DumpJerry
09-12-2012, 02:47 PM
If we make the playoffs, we can catch fire. We did in 2005 after a very poor finish to the year.
We did? From September 1st through the end of the regular season on October 2nd, the Sox were 19-12 which is a .613 winning percentage.

enurb
09-12-2012, 04:04 PM
We did? From September 1st through the end of the regular season on October 2nd, the Sox were 19-12 which is a .613 winning percentage.

Indeed, we did.

On August 1, 2005, we had a 15 game advantage. From September 21 to 23, 2005, our lead was reduced 1.5 games.

We were 12-16 in August 2005, which is a .429 winning percentage.

16th&State
09-12-2012, 04:09 PM
Considering going into this season, some people were expecting the Sox to kareem into the lower levels of Major League Baseball, and thought the Sox were entering into a period of 90+ loss seasons, so in that regards, this year has been a success. Had you told me in March that on September 12, they would be in 1st place and playing meaningful games, I'd have been ecstatic. I didn't think they'd be quite as bad as some of the people forecasting a baseball apocalypse, but I didn't think they'd be real contenders in the division.

That said, I will be pretty disappointed if they miss the postseason. They've been in 1st place for almost 2/3 of the year now. Doesn't mean **** if you don't finish.

Well said Doublem23. I had next to no expectations for this team coming into the season, but this summer has been one of the more fun seasons in recent years. The Sox have been in first place for a good portion of the season, and if they don't take the division, I will be deeply disappointed.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
09-12-2012, 04:15 PM
Indeed, we did.

On August 1, 2005, we had a 15 game advantage. From September 21 to 23, 2005, our lead was reduced 1.5 games.

We were 12-16 in August 2005, which is a .429 winning percentage.


The one thing that everyone forgets about that year is that the Indians went on an unheard-of streak of winning. They won, what, 40 of 50 games at one point?

DumpJerry
09-12-2012, 04:16 PM
Indeed, we did.

On August 1, 2005, we had a 15 game advantage. From September 21 to 23, 2005, our lead was reduced 1.5 games.

We were 12-16 in August 2005, which is a .429 winning percentage.
August is the month that caused us to age prematurely. We had a seven game losing streak that month.

What people who are not Sox fans don't realize is the fact that the Sox did not choke coming down the stretch, but the Indians' winning percentage for August and September was .706. They finished the season 1-6. The Sox were the only MLB team that would have been able to hold off that charge the Indians mounted. The Tribe's run was unprecedented. A season-long .706 winning percentage is a 114-48 record.

Frater Perdurabo
09-12-2012, 04:19 PM
Most excellent post, Bedford! If the Sox do make the playoffs, we need to have a beer or twelve.

Soxman219
09-12-2012, 04:20 PM
OP, I respectfully disagree.

First off, if the Tigers were a better team, then they'd be in 1st right now. I remember the Sox owning the Tigers in 2006 but they were in the playoffs and the Sox were home.

Second, the Sox have been in 1st for a majority of the season. It will be a disappointment if they don't make the postseason. I know Paulie said that "we don't have to make the playoffs to have a successful season," during spring training but he needs to change his tune. I know everyone had the Sox sucking this year, I was one of them. But as the season got along I saw the Sox beat great teams and our rookies showing no fear. Then I remembered it's baseball, anything can happen. You know what I'll say if the Sox don't make the postseason? "Another year where the Sox took us for a ride where they were playing great baseball leading up to the All-Star Break, only to falter in the second half and out of contention by mid to late September!" Then see the AL Central champ lose in the playoffs while I'm thinking, "The Sox would have beaten those guys if they made the playoffs!"

As for the future, nothing is guaranteed. AJ, Peavy and Youk could be gone, Quintana could be figured out by the league, and Sale looks like Cy Young material now, but so did Mark Prior. Rios could easily revert back to the 2011 Rios, Paulie could retire after next season, Dunn's batting average as a Sox is below .210, think it will get better? I could be 100% wrong on all of that, but who knows?

What I know now is, the Sox are in 1st place right this minute and the Tigers have to catch the Sox, not the other way around. So why not us this year? Why can't we win it all this year? No one else in the league right now is a LEGIT contender. All the Sox gotta do is get hot, and everything else will sort itself out.

ElevenUp
09-12-2012, 04:35 PM
OP, I respectfully disagree.

First off, if the Tigers were a better team, then they'd be in 1st right now. I remember the Sox owning the Tigers in 2006 but they were in the playoffs and the Sox were home.

Second, the Sox have been in 1st for a majority of the season. It will be a disappointment if they don't make the postseason. I know Paulie said that "we don't have to make the playoffs to have a successful season," during spring training but he needs to change his tune. I know everyone had the Sox sucking this year, I was one of them. But as the season got along I saw the Sox beat great teams and our rookies showing no fear. Then I remembered it's baseball, anything can happen. You know what I'll say if the Sox don't make the postseason? "Another year where the Sox took us for a ride where they were playing great baseball leading up to the All-Star Break, only to falter in the second half and out of contention by mid to late September!" Then see the AL Central champ lose in the playoffs while I'm thinking, "The Sox would have beaten those guys if they made the playoffs!"

As for the future, nothing is guaranteed. AJ, Peavy and Youk could be gone, Quintana could be figured out by the league, and Sale looks like Cy Young material now, but so did Mark Prior. Rios could easily revert back to the 2011 Rios, Paulie could retire after next season, Dunn's batting average as a Sox is below .210, think it will get better? I could be 100% wrong on all of that, but who knows?

What I know now is, the Sox are in 1st place right this minute and the Tigers have to catch the Sox, not the other way around. So why not us this year? Why can't we win it all this year? No one else in the league right now is a LEGIT contender. All the Sox gotta do is get hot, and everything else will sort itself out.


Very true. Worst case scenario from this Tiger series is that the the Sox would share first place in the central after the 4 games. It's not like Detroit has been beating up the AL all month. They have been playing awful baseball. I would love to see the Sox get hot the last 2 weeks of the season and take momentum into the playoffs just like in 2005.

enurb
09-12-2012, 04:55 PM
The one thing that everyone forgets about that year is that the Indians went on an unheard-of streak of winning. They won, what, 40 of 50 games at one point?


Agree. It was a great run by Tribe.

My earlier post about our poor 2005 finish was overstated. We basically played .500 ball from August 1 on, which is not great but also not horrible.

Saracen
09-12-2012, 05:04 PM
I'm on board with the original poster. Most everyone was predicting a gloom & doom/rebuilding season at the beginning of the year. This team has overachieved all season - injuries have taken their toll and the pitching staff is now gassed - but this has been a success in my eyes.

No one will be as disappointed as me if they don't make it into the playoffs - where anyone can catch fire and anything can happen - but I've had a great time watching this team overachieve. And I'm consistently bothered reading how Robin sucks and the players are pathetic in the gameday threads every day recently.

soxnut1018
09-12-2012, 05:45 PM
On the downside, Adam Dunn is the left-handed reincarnation of Dave Kingman. We can't have a .210 hitter batting third in the line-up. Hopefully his strained oblique won't diminish his value as much as his performance has. Thanks for the long home runs, Adam, and congrats on the bounce back season, but it's time for the Sox to upgrade at DH.

This is the only part of your post that I really disagree with. Among DH's, Adam is 4th in WAR and wOBA, and OBP. He's third in slugging and is tied for first in home runs. While it be nice if he was hitting .250 instead of .208, he certainly is a quality DH. You could definitely make the argument that he shouldn't be batting third, but that's as far as the argument goes.

Moses_Scurry
09-12-2012, 08:41 PM
One thing I don't like is that people tend to view a non-championship season as a complete failure. While Ozzie was still here the last couple years, the people who wanted him fired would say that his record was a dismal failure from mid-2006 on. It was like 2008 never happened. I hate the thought that 2008 is lumped in with years like 2007 and 2009. 2008 was a great year that had a lot of high moments, very much like 2012 has been so far. I will always have a warm spot for 2008. It was a playoff year, which is a rare thing for us Sox fans. 2012 has been very similar to 2008. The team was not expected to do much, and they've been in the lead for almost the entire season, and still is in the lead with 20 games to go.

Inevitably people will lump 2012 in with such dismal years like 2007 if the Sox fail to win the division and probably if they do win it but get beat in the first round. Why are years like 1993 and 2000 looked at so fondly, but 2008 is almost forgotten? Is it because of Ozzie? Or is 2008 just too recent?

russ99
09-12-2012, 10:59 PM
I'll save my offseason comments until the offseason.

If we can split the Tigers series (tall order vs. Verlander unless there's an offensive re-awakening of biblical proportions) and either stay in first or stay within 2-3 games through the damn Royals series next week, we still have a shot.

Lip Man 1
09-12-2012, 11:24 PM
This and that:

Any time the Sox want to "get hot..." would be fine by me, they haven't been "lukewarm" even since August 26th.

Moses, I can't speak for anyone else but I don't lump 1993 and 2000 as "disappointments" for the following reasons.

1993 continued a stretch of very good baseball that began in 1990...that's four years in a row (and 1994 would be a 5th year) the Sox that year won 93 games...they didn't back in to the playoffs, they met a Toronto team that just about had an All Star at every position but 3rd base and catcher.

In 2000 the Sox won 95 games with a team that came out of nowhere. They crushed the baseball, other teams feared them. They didn't go far in 2000 because by the time the playoffs rolled around the starting rotation was being held together by spit and duct tape and the bullpen was over worked trying to compensate. Manager Gandhi himself said after the season that if the Sox has gone to a 4th game with Seattle, Sean Lowe was probably going to start it...Sirotka and Parque were finished (as it turned out permanently), Baldwin's arm was hanging off and Eldred missed two months with a screw in his elbow and wasn't even on the active roster for the Seattle series.

Was I upset they didn't go on in the postseason those years? Yes but I could understand why they didn't and they had a very good regular season. Big difference to me winning 93 and 95 games compared to (maybe) 85.

Lip

gosox41
09-14-2012, 03:07 AM
OP, I respectfully disagree.

First off, if the Tigers were a better team, then they'd be in 1st right now. I remember the Sox owning the Tigers in 2006 but they were in the playoffs and the Sox were home.




I'm not saying the Tigers are better or not (I think they are on paper) but they do play 162 game seasons for and not 140 game seasons. This is a marathon and there is still a couple of miles left. If the Sox are a better team, they won't run out of gas and in fact will pick up their pace heading into the finish line as they can feel the next racer breathing down their necks.


Bob

bigdommer
09-14-2012, 07:44 AM
Like most, I am pretty torn on this issue. Doublem said it best. All of us (ok, 90%) in March would have been ecstatic if told we would be in first place in mid-September. We entered this season with a manager who had never managed a team at any level, a 3 hitter who possibly had the worst season of all time at the plate, an "aging" roster, the "worst" farm system in the major leagues, and a closer by rookie committee. Not exactly a recipe for success.

But fast forward to today. We have one of the best aces in baseball. Rios and AJ are having career years. The staff and bullpen, while not dominant, has been solid. Several rookies are stepping up with solid years. Adam has bounced back (and would be leading the league in HR's if healthy). And in my opinion the defense is up there with the best in the league. Throw all that together with the expanded playoff, and it would be disappointing if we weren't there.

And I don't think this team or organization will be satisfied with anything less. We know KW never backs down from a challenge. Robin has shown some fire and passion out there. AJ, Youk, and Paulie have their rings and play every day with the fire to get back there.

bigdommer
09-14-2012, 07:51 AM
One thing I don't like is that people tend to view a non-championship season as a complete failure. While Ozzie was still here the last couple years, the people who wanted him fired would say that his record was a dismal failure from mid-2006 on. It was like 2008 never happened. I hate the thought that 2008 is lumped in with years like 2007 and 2009. 2008 was a great year that had a lot of high moments, very much like 2012 has been so far. I will always have a warm spot for 2008. It was a playoff year, which is a rare thing for us Sox fans. 2012 has been very similar to 2008. The team was not expected to do much, and they've been in the lead for almost the entire season, and still is in the lead with 20 games to go.

Inevitably people will lump 2012 in with such dismal years like 2007 if the Sox fail to win the division and probably if they do win it but get beat in the first round. Why are years like 1993 and 2000 looked at so fondly, but 2008 is almost forgotten? Is it because of Ozzie? Or is 2008 just too recent?

I know you said 2006 on, but I think people forget that the 2006 squad was pretty darn good. That lineup was dynamite and PK, Dye, and Thome were 35/100 and the latter two had an OPS over 1.000. The entire pitching staff regressed from 2005, and the team was below average in the second half of the season, where .500 would have gotten them into the playoffs.

Dan H
09-14-2012, 08:13 AM
It is true that many of us didn't expect the White Sox to be in first place in June. However, it was disappointing to see the team lay down against Detroit this past week. They were lucky to see that Verlander start rained out.

It is also disappointing that they lost to direct competition late in the season for the third year in a row. First the Twins in 2010 and now the Tigers the last two years. They didn't just lose, they were losing almost every game. That's one reason they get little respect around the league. Fans here keep saying the Sox are better than Detroit but the lead is only one game, and the Tigers won the season series handily.

Having said that, the season will not be a total disappointment. Sale has settled in as the ace and other young players have got some experience. Yet finishing in second and not gaining a wild card in a diluted playoff set-up still has to be called disappointing even with the lower expectations at the start of the year.

Jollyroger2
09-14-2012, 08:41 AM
The Tigers are the better team, they've proved that where it counts, on the field. Particularly down the stretch. They've swept the Sox in embarrassing fashion the last two meetings in Detroit and despite the hopes and guarantees of many posters here, they had no problems winning in Chicago this week either. I have no doubt they would have won the fourth game as well.

As for expectations vs. how they finish, etc. If they don't win the division, or fail in the playoffs, that's not a success to me. Yes the "experts" mostly predicted the Sox to do badly. That gives me no comfort. Once they got into May and June and proved they weren't the train wreck people thought they were, I expected them to stay in the division/playoff race.

But they're inconsistent. Mentally they have checked out far too many times. They have shown repeatedly they can play with and beat the better teams in the league. (Texas, Yankees, etc) But then in far too many cases, they get pushed around by teams like the Tigers, O's and Red Sox, in addition to losing series to bad-awful teams like the Royals, Cubs, Astros, etc.

Case in point, they win six straight and since then have gone 5-11. They are only still in 1st place because the Tigers have also been mediocre or less and other teams have done the Sox's work for them in beating them. The trends are all downward for the Sox. They will either barely make it into the postseason and be roadkill in the first round, or they'll miss the postseason completely and it's disappointing.

To me the goal is to make the playoffs and win in the playoffs, no matter what the expectations were/are. If they don't do these things, the season is a disappointment, end of story. I'm not as easily satisfied with mediocrity or failure like some fans. This team has underachieved too many times since their one WS title. And I'm not as convinced that the future is as bright as some are making it out to be.

asindc
09-14-2012, 09:20 AM
The Tigers are the better team, they've proved that where it counts, on the field. Particularly down the stretch. They've swept the Sox in embarrassing fashion the last two meetings in Detroit and despite the hopes and guarantees of many posters here, they had no problems winning in Chicago this week either. I have no doubt they would have won the fourth game as well.

As for expectations vs. how they finish, etc. If they don't win the division, or fail in the playoffs, that's not a success to me. Yes the "experts" mostly predicted the Sox to do badly. That gives me no comfort. Once they got into May and June and proved they weren't the train wreck people thought they were, I expected them to stay in the division/playoff race.

But they're inconsistent. Mentally they have checked out far too many times. They have shown repeatedly they can play with and beat the better teams in the league. (Texas, Yankees, etc) But then in far too many cases, they get pushed around by teams like the Tigers, O's and Red Sox, in addition to losing series to bad-awful teams like the Royals, Cubs, Astros, etc.

Case in point, they win six straight and since then have gone 5-11. They are only still in 1st place because the Tigers have also been mediocre or less and other teams have done the Sox's work for them in beating them. The trends are all downward for the Sox. They will either barely make it into the postseason and be roadkill in the first round, or they'll miss the postseason completely and it's disappointing.

To me the goal is to make the playoffs and win in the playoffs, no matter what the expectations were/are. If they don't do these things, the season is a disappointment, end of story. I'm not as easily satisfied with mediocrity or failure like some fans. This team has underachieved too many times since their one WS title. And I'm not as convinced that the future is as bright as some are making it out to be.


But the Tigers are inconsistent. Mentally they have checked out far too many times. They have shown repeatedly they can play with and beat the better teams in the league. (Oakland, Yankees, etc.) But then in far too many cases, they get pushed around by teams like LAAAAA and Toronto, in addition to losing series to bad-awful teams like the Royals, Seattle, Cleveland, etc.

Case in point, they sweep the Sox and since then have won just three games. They are still in 2nd place because they have also been mediocre or less against other teams, despite the fact that other teams keep doing them favors by beating the Sox. The trends are all downward for the Tigers. They will either barely make it into the postseason and be roadkill in the first round, or they'll miss the postseason completely and it's disappointing.

That team has underachieved too many times since their one AL pennant. And I'm not as convinced that their future is as bright as some are making it out to be.

russ99
09-14-2012, 10:35 AM
It is true that many of us didn't expect the White Sox to be in first place in June. However, it was disappointing to see the team lay down against Detroit this past week. They were lucky to see that Verlander start rained out.

It is also disappointing that they lost to direct competition late in the season for the third year in a row. First the Twins in 2010 and now the Tigers the last two years. They didn't just lose, they were losing almost every game. That's one reason they get little respect around the league. Fans here keep saying the Sox are better than Detroit but the lead is only one game, and the Tigers won the season series handily.

Having said that, the season will not be a total disappointment. Sale has settled in as the ace and other young players have got some experience. Yet finishing in second and not gaining a wild card in a diluted playoff set-up still has to be called disappointing even with the lower expectations at the start of the year.

The losses in direct competition really irritate me. At first, I preferred to explain it away with Danks and Floyd not being tough enough in pressure games, but this seems to be an issue with the whole team.

With two very different managerial approaches, Ozzie with his loosey-goosey loud clubhouse and Ventura as quiet and direct, I have to think that it's the lack of a killer instinct among our key players, seemingly an attitude that each game means exactly the same thing and deserves the same effort. And yes it's a long season, but if you're going to give a few games greater importance, these are the ones.

As for the future, some big contracts (Peavy, Youkilis, Liriano, Myers and maybe A.J. with De Aza also a FA) are going away, and it remains to be seen if Jerry will use the extra payroll space or keep shrinking the payroll in response to self-inflicted attendance issues. Hopefully something can be done to shake up a flawed roster, both in the lineup/bench and the pitching staff.

Golden Sox
09-14-2012, 11:04 AM
A successful season to me is getting into the playoffs. Once you're in the playoffs anything can happen. If the White Sox get into the playoffs this year I will consider the season a success. If they don't get into the playoffs I will consider the season a failure. By the way I don't know if anybody noticed in todays Sun Times but the TV ratings for the White Sox Tigers series on Comcast scored the highest White Sox TV ratings in 3 years. Interest in the team is building and I' m hoping we can play well the last 20 games of the season and get into the playoffs.

JasonFrasor54
09-14-2012, 12:27 PM
I can see why people say "just be happy we are play meaningful games". But thats giving up. My expectations for this team have changed from the beginning of the season and this team is good enough to win the central. Anything can happy in the post season.

Lets hope in a month we can all look back at this thread and get a good chuckle when the whitesox are 2012 central champs.

Well written thread by the way.

Lip Man 1
09-14-2012, 12:47 PM
Russ:

I didn't know De Aza is a free agent. Never heard that before. I know that Floyd can be if the Sox don't pick up his option.

Lip

kittle42
09-14-2012, 01:01 PM
Russ:

I didn't know De Aza is a free agent. Never heard that before. I know that Floyd can be if the Sox don't pick up his option.

Lip

De Aza is arbitration eligible through 2014 and a free agent in 2015.

Floyd has a $9.5 million club option for 2013.

TDog
09-14-2012, 01:07 PM
The Tigers are the better team, they've proved that where it counts, on the field. ...

If the Tigers are clearly a better team against the White Sox because the Tigers hold a firm season-series edge, then wouldn't the Mariners be a better team than the Tigers an wouldn't the White Sox be a better team than the Mariners. The margins in the season series among those teams are not even close.

Consider the following.

Tigers > White Sox
Mariners> Tigers
White Sox > Mariners

The same logical fallacies arise with some other matchups, but they aren't as extreme.

If the White Sox play teams other than the Tigers at a higher winning percentage than the Tigers play teams other than the White Sox (there being only the one scheduled game left between those two teams), it would be a small consololation that the Tigers beat the White Sox head-to-head.

By the way, my expectations haven't changed since March. I still think this White Sox team has a chance to win the division.

russ99
09-14-2012, 01:55 PM
Russ:

I didn't know De Aza is a free agent. Never heard that before. I know that Floyd can be if the Sox don't pick up his option.

Lip

Must be an error, he's listed as such on Cot's baseball contracts. Maybe the 6 years in the minors has something to do with that.

kittle42
09-14-2012, 02:32 PM
Must be an error, he's listed as such on Cot's baseball contracts. Maybe the 6 years in the minors has something to do with that.

Cot's doesn't do a great job all the time with the arb eligible guys - they just list it as continuing 1-year contracts.

I had the same issue with Jon Jay when I was determining whether to make a fantasy trade.

Jollyroger2
09-14-2012, 02:45 PM
If the Tigers are clearly a better team against the White Sox because the Tigers hold a firm season-series edge, then wouldn't the Mariners be a better team than the Tigers an wouldn't the White Sox be a better team than the Mariners. The margins in the season series among those teams are not even close.

Consider the following.

Tigers > White Sox
Mariners> Tigers
White Sox > Mariners

The same logical fallacies arise with some other matchups, but they aren't as extreme.

If the White Sox play teams other than the Tigers at a higher winning percentage than the Tigers play teams other than the White Sox (there being only the one scheduled game left between those two teams), it would be a small consololation that the Tigers beat the White Sox head-to-head.

By the way, my expectations haven't changed since March. I still think this White Sox team has a chance to win the division.

I'm not talking about other teams. If the Sox even had a .500 record against the Tigers, who are nothing special, they'd have a comfortable division lead. But they don't. They won the first two meetings way back in the spring and since then have lost 12 of 15. That's not just losing to a team, that's getting your butt kicked and it's why this race is still a race.

Yes if this happens and this happens and Detroit loses this many the head to head won't matter, etc. It would be nice though if the Sox could have beaten this team on their own instead of hoping and praying every night that someone else does it for them.

TDog
09-14-2012, 03:09 PM
I'm not talking about other teams. If the Sox even had a .500 record against the Tigers, who are nothing special, they'd have a comfortable division lead. But they don't. They won the first two meetings way back in the spring and since then have lost 12 of 15. That's not just losing to a team, that's getting your butt kicked and it's why this race is still a race.

Yes if this happens and this happens and Detroit loses this many the head to head won't matter, etc. It would be nice though if the Sox could have beaten this team on their own instead of hoping and praying every night that someone else does it for them.

For that matter, if Sale had thrown a high fastball instead of a low-and-away breaking ball to Delmon Young in the Sunday night game, the Sox might have come into the week with a four-game lead in the division If the the Sox had swept Kansas City on top of that, they would have a six-game lead in the division. In fact, if the Royals had played as poorly Sunday as the Tigers did against the White Sox Monday, the White Sox would have won Sunday.

If the Tigers had swept the Mariners as the White Sox did, the Tigers would have a comfortable lead in the division. The White Sox haven't matched up well against the Tigers this year. But the White Sox are the better team up to this point. The White Sox are 6-3 against the Rangers, and the Tigers were 3-7 against the Rangers.

The Tigers haven't shown they are a better team than the White Sox. They have beaten the White Sox head to head, but that isn't how you determine who is the better team.

Ifs notwithstanding, the fact that only one game separates the White Sox and Tigers while the Tigers have 12-5 series edge over the White Sox suggests that the Tigers are not a better team.

asindc
09-14-2012, 05:15 PM
I'm not talking about other teams. If the Sox even had a .500 record against the Tigers, who are nothing special, they'd have a comfortable division lead. But they don't. They won the first two meetings way back in the spring and since then have lost 12 of 15. That's not just losing to a team, that's getting your butt kicked and it's why this race is still a race.

Yes if this happens and this happens and Detroit loses this many the head to head won't matter, etc. It would be nice though if the Sox could have beaten this team on their own instead of hoping and praying every night that someone else does it for them.

That's just it. As it stands right now, it is Detroit that has to hope and pray someone else beats the Sox if Detroit doesn't do it themselves on Monday. As long as the Sox have the lead, winning their own games is all that matters. If you are in 2nd place or below, winning your own games is not enough. Bottom line, I'd rather be us than them right now, and I have felt that way ever since the AL Central was established and before.