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View Full Version : *Official* 9-9 "Dark Clouds Gathering" Postgamer Thread


MtGrnwdSoxFan
09-09-2012, 05:49 PM
Offensively bankrupt performance, NOT the thing we needed going into what could be the series that defines our season tomorrow.

I'll repeat the Sox' rallying cry: "GO TIGERS' OPPONENT!!"

Tragg
09-09-2012, 05:51 PM
When you choose to bat the worst hitter on the roster second, don't be surprised when you must pay the price.
Why would Ventura give this guy the 2nd most at bats in the lineup?

1989
09-09-2012, 05:51 PM
Ray Olmedo can get the **** off my team. I never want to see him again.

ChiSoxFann
09-09-2012, 05:51 PM
Didn't watch the whole game, but couldn't we pinch hit someone for Olmedo there!!! I know the bench was somewhat empty by then, but Ray had no chance at all that at bat. :angry:

russ99
09-09-2012, 05:52 PM
Hopefully that's the last we see of Rey Olmedo. No excuse for that.

Also I know it's easier said than done against a guy pitching 100mph, but why the heck was Rios swinging for the seats in a tie game? Did he know it was the bottom of the 9th with one out and the bases loaded? A single there would have won the game.

Any time we've got a guy in scoring position lately, its all hacking away, homer or nothing. That has to stop if we want a postseason or any postseason success. Second straight loss where a squeeze bunt probably would have been a better option over the hackers and wild swingers.

Putrid bullpen management again too. No need to start Crain in the 10th and I know Veal is great against lefties but why can he only pitch to one guy? How can a reliever know his role when they're shuttled in and out so quickly?

MUsoxfan
09-09-2012, 05:53 PM
Ray Olmedo can get the **** off my team. I never want to see him again.


That was among the worst at-bats I've ever seen

Chicago5oooh
09-09-2012, 05:53 PM
I would rather have Ray Charles bat in that situation over Ray Olmedo...

Robin has looked every bit of a rookie manager the last few weeks.

Not good.

JasonFrasor54
09-09-2012, 05:53 PM
12 LOB, No homeruns, and a waste of good pitching. This is a hard one to take.:angry:
Why must the Sox continue to test Jeff Francoeur's arm?

EdHerman12
09-09-2012, 05:53 PM
Continuing to poop their pants against a team that's 8-23 against the three last place teams in the AL....I still see a 163rd game against the Tiggers on the horizon

LITTLE NELL
09-09-2012, 05:55 PM
Some thoughts:
*** is Ray Olmedo doing on this team? What a horrible at bat.
I hate the Royals.
Hard to win with a AAA on the field but we had a chance.
Myers stinks right now.
87 wins might win the division but its going to be hard because we have 3 games with the Royals in KC.

DickAllen72
09-09-2012, 05:55 PM
When you choose to bat the worst hitter on the roster second, don't be surprised when you must pay the price.
Why would Ventura give this guy the 2nd most at bats in the lineup?
Olmedo is a bum. Olmedo's poor play combined with Ventura's poor managing was the difference in today's game.

Soxman219
09-09-2012, 05:55 PM
I honestly don't think the Sox deserve the division if they can't even get a clutch hit!

Hitmen77
09-09-2012, 05:55 PM
Losing Ugly. :anon:

So many blown opportunities. We'd better get our act together for the Tigers series.

PalehosePlanet
09-09-2012, 05:56 PM
I haven't felt this bad in September since 2006.

Our manager did all he could to blow the games on Friday and today, and I don't give a **** that he's a rookie manager. If you don't know what the **** you're doing, get lost.

We're terrible on the road already (since the break) and now we can't even scratch out wins at home? Recipe for disaster.

Madvora
09-09-2012, 05:56 PM
This team is doing whatever they can to blow this season. This is not the same team we saw earlier this year. I hate watching these games now.

Soxman219
09-09-2012, 05:56 PM
Olemdo needs to be cut immediately.

Noneck
09-09-2012, 05:57 PM
That was among the worst at-bats I've ever seen

That and the base running play when he didnt run to 1st. This is a guy that I never understood why he was on the club and he proved me right.

Whats up with Youk, are there problems with his child or wife? Its been 3 days.

MARTINMVP
09-09-2012, 05:57 PM
This team doesn't deserve to make the post season. Giving away too many games. At this rate, even if they get in, they'd probably be done after just three games.

Tragg
09-09-2012, 05:59 PM
Olemdo needs to be cut immediately.

He's the 2 hole hitter. What the heck kind of hitter did Ventura think he was?
This is the level of managing we got from Guillen, at his worst.

russ99
09-09-2012, 05:59 PM
And we have to play these clowns 3 more times in KC next week, with not even the slightest indication that we can win a game there.

ChiSoxGal85
09-09-2012, 05:59 PM
Totally frustrating. This completely winnable game could have put the Sox up 2.5 (3 if the Tigers lose). Instead, the Sox piss away multiple chances and now are 1.5 up with Detroit coming in - only 1 if the Tigers win today. Go Angels!

What a waste of a great opportunity. Ugh!!!!!! Too many bad decisions baserunning today. And Robin...no more Olmedo please.

WhiteSox5187
09-09-2012, 06:00 PM
That and the base running play when he didnt run to 1st. This a guy that I never understood why he was on the club and he proved me right.

Whats up with Youk, are there problems with his child or wife? Its been 3 days.

Youk's wife just gave birth and players get three days for paternity.

I didn't see Olmedo's last AB but the play where he didn't hustle down to first killed me. The guy is the 25th man on the roster, he has to hustle. Having said that, the holes that are showing up now are the same holes this team has had all season long.

LITTLE NELL
09-09-2012, 06:02 PM
The Sox made a huge mistake when they traded Eduardo Escobar for Liriano, that kid got some clutch hits for us right before he was traded. Instead we have guys like Olmedo and Lopez.

BTW how long does a guy need for maternity leave?

palehozenychicty
09-09-2012, 06:02 PM
Youk's wife just gave birth and players get three days for paternity.

I didn't see Olmedo's last AB but the play where he didn't hustle down to first killed me. The guy is the 25th man on the roster, he has to hustle. Having said that, the holes that are showing up now are the same holes this team has had all season long.

Yeah. At this point, the guys on the field just have to get it done.

billyvsox
09-09-2012, 06:02 PM
I haven't felt this bad in September since 2006.

Our manager did all he could to blow the games on Friday and today, and I don't give a **** that he's a rookie manager. If you don't know what the **** you're doing, get lost.

We're terrible on the road already (since the break) and now we can't even scratch out wins at home? Recipe for disaster.

I agree... and I am a supporter of the Ventura hiring. Close games down the stretch require bullpen managment (not pitching Myers against a tema that owns him), playing some small ball in low scroing games (which he never does), and putting together a quality line-up. (ok, if you want to bench Alexei thats fine, but dont have Olmedo hitting second....you just knew he would put in an imprtant spot - actually - twice).

This kind of loss, with the Tigers coming in worries me. This team is still good enough to win the division, but has to stop relying on the HR and the crappy bullpen.

1989
09-09-2012, 06:03 PM
I honestly don't think the Sox deserve the division if they can't even get a clutch hit!

Forget a clutch hit, how about a clutch flyball out?

Brian26
09-09-2012, 06:03 PM
Ray Olmedo can get the **** off my team. I never want to see him again.

Hudson, for as bad as the .186 average looks, can at least go up there with a little bit of confidence and draw a walk. Olmedo just had no chance at all. No idea why Lopez and Olmedo are getting starts in front of Hudson right now.

Tragg
09-09-2012, 06:04 PM
The Sox made a huge mistake when they traded Eduardo Escobar for Liriano, that kid got some clutch hits for us right before he was traded. Instead we have guys like Olmedo and Lopez.


Definitely weakened the bench by a lot. But we needed a pitcher.

amsteel
09-09-2012, 06:05 PM
The team that chokes less will win the ALC.

For the last 3 months the Sox have me nothing to signify they no better than a 10 over team.

LITTLE NELL
09-09-2012, 06:05 PM
Definitely weakened the bench by a lot. But we needed a pitcher.

I know but I wish we could have traded someone else instead of Escobar.

billyvsox
09-09-2012, 06:06 PM
This team doesn't deserve to make the post season. Giving away too many games. At this rate, even if they get in, they'd probably be done after just three games.

I agree they dont deserve it the way they are playing, but neither do the Tigers right now. Heck, if the Tigers didn't have us to beat up on, they would be 6 or 7 out by now.

LoveYourSuit
09-09-2012, 06:06 PM
I hate this team. A roster full of lightweight hitting midgets.

Brian26
09-09-2012, 06:06 PM
I didn't see Olmedo's last AB but the play where he didn't hustle down to first killed me. The guy is the 25th man on the roster, he has to hustle. Having said that, the holes that are showing up now are the same holes this team has had all season long.

That play had two parts, Olmedo's guilty of only one mistake. He stopped, I think, because he thought he was going to get tagged and didn't want the first baseman to throw to second and see a tag there for a double play. Hawk & Stone missed that at first. However, as soon as Olmedo saw the ball thrown to second, he should have started running hard again down the line, which he didn't at all, and I have no idea what he was thinking.

Noneck
09-09-2012, 06:06 PM
Hudson, for as bad as the .186 average looks, can at least go up there with a little bit of confidence and draw a walk. Olmedo just had no chance at all. No idea why Lopez and Olmedo are getting starts in front of Hudson right now.


Hudson has been through meaningful septembers and is a pro. Your guess is as good as mine why he sits and they play.

thomas35forever
09-09-2012, 06:07 PM
This makes me sick. So many opportunities today and Friday we didn't take advantage of. How are we even contending right now? Wouldn't be shocked by another Tigers sweep after this.

I also knew Olmedo had no shot at the end. Can we cut him now please? He will not help us down the stretch.

billyvsox
09-09-2012, 06:08 PM
That play had two parts, Olmedo's guilty of only one mistake. He stopped, I think, because he thought he was going to get tagged and didn't want the first baseman to throw to second and see a tag there for a double play. Hawk & Stone missed that at first. However, as soon as Olmedo saw the ball thrown to second, he should have started running hard again down the line, which he didn't at all, and I have no idea what he was thinking.

Still no excuse. No excuse for stopping either. Let him tag you out and they runner goes to 2nd anyway. It was Hosmer that made the first bonehead play, and we should have had 2 on with no out

Brian26
09-09-2012, 06:08 PM
The Sox made a huge mistake when they traded Eduardo Escobar for Liriano, that kid got some clutch hits for us right before he was traded. Instead we have guys like Olmedo and Lopez.

I liked Escobar, but the upside of Liriano is worth that risk. I wish we still had Escobar, because he was a scrappy player, but I cannot say he'd be worth more right now than a healthy starter that can (hopefully) give you six innings every five days.

Noneck
09-09-2012, 06:08 PM
I hate this team. A roster full of lightweight hitting midgets.

Without Dunn and Youkillis, they sure are.

Soxman219
09-09-2012, 06:08 PM
Please tell me Youk will play tomorrow! If he played this series the Sox would have won at least 2 games! I never want to see Olmedo ever again!

ChiSoxGal85
09-09-2012, 06:09 PM
Not that they are guaranteed game winners either, but why not pinch hit Flowers or Johnson for Olmedo in the 10th?

billyvsox
09-09-2012, 06:09 PM
And the Laaaaaaa Angles trying to spit out the sweep as we speak.

Noneck
09-09-2012, 06:10 PM
Please tell me Youk will play tomorrow! If he played this series the Sox would have won at least 2 games! I never want to see Olmedo ever again!

What I heard here, he used up his paternity leave so unless he will be using sick time, I guess so.

billyvsox
09-09-2012, 06:10 PM
Not that they are guaranteed game winners either, but why not pinch hit Flowers or Johnson for Olmedo in the 10th?

Even Gimenez would have been better. Johnson was used, so Tyler would have been a good choice. De Aza however has got to put the ball in play with only 1 out

DickAllen72
09-09-2012, 06:11 PM
That and the base running play when he didnt run to 1st. This is a guy that I never understood why he was on the club and he proved me right.
And he didn't even run to first after the dropped third strike to end the game.

This guy looks like he has absolutely no chance at the plate, yet Ventura bats him second.

LITTLE NELL
09-09-2012, 06:11 PM
Not that they are guaranteed game winners either, but why not pinch hit Flowers or Johnson for Olmedo in the 10th?

Johnson pinch hit in the 9th and had an intentional walk.

Brian26
09-09-2012, 06:11 PM
Still no excuse. No excuse for stopping either. Let him tag you out and they runner goes to 2nd anyway. It was Hosmer that made the first bonehead play, and we should have had 2 on with no out

Just my opinion, but the ball was hit so hard that Hosmer may have had a chance to nail the guy at 2nd base after the tag (this is I believe Olmedo's thinking, as it was mine watching the play live.) In hindsight, we know that wasn't the case as we saw the play's outcome at 2nd, but in real time I don't think it's a bad judgment call on Olmedo. Not busting hard to first after that, though, is brutally bad.

Aesero
09-09-2012, 06:12 PM
we got pinch hitters for everyone but olmedo

Soxman219
09-09-2012, 06:13 PM
And the Laaaaaaa Angles trying to spit out the sweep as we speak.

I'm not gonna blame LAAAAA, they helped us out! The Sox had bunches of chances! Based loaded 1 out and Rios hits into a DP. Sox players getting gunned out left and right! I have never been this disappointed of a contending Sox team than this one.

chisoxjtrain
09-09-2012, 06:13 PM
Not that they are guaranteed game winners either, but why not pinch hit Flowers or Johnson for Olmedo in the 10th?

Couldn't. Flowers was announced but when KC changed pitchers, Johnson came into pinch hit for Wise.

Noneck
09-09-2012, 06:13 PM
Johnson pinch hit in the 9th and had an intentional walk.

That reminds me, Flowers was announced and wasted for that.

ChiSoxGal85
09-09-2012, 06:13 PM
Even Gimenez would have been better. Johnson was used, so Tyler would have been a good choice. De Aza however has got to put the ball in play with only 1 out
Somehow I missed that Johnson was in already - probably too much nervous "leaving the room" by me. :D:

De Aza was trying to put the squeeze on - if he didn't get that pitch way up and in, it might have worked.

Brian26
09-09-2012, 06:13 PM
Not that they are guaranteed game winners either, but why not pinch hit Flowers or Johnson for Olmedo in the 10th?

Even Gimenez would have been better. Johnson was used, so Tyler would have been a good choice. De Aza however has got to put the ball in play with only 1 out

I thought Tyler's name was announced before Johnson pinch hit after the KC pitching change. I haven't checked the box, but I think Flowers was out of the game.

billyvsox
09-09-2012, 06:13 PM
Just my opinion, but the ball was hit so hard that Hosmer may have had a chance to nail the guy at 2nd base after the tag (this is I believe Olmedo's thinking, as it was mine watching the play live.) In hindsight, we know that wasn't the case as we saw the play's outcome at 2nd, but in real time I don't think it's a bad judgment call on Olmedo. Not busting hard to first after that, though, is brutally bad.

If he is able to tag Olmedo and then go to second (for a tag out play), with a perfect throw, I would have been stunned. That said, you may be right :smile:

billyvsox
09-09-2012, 06:15 PM
we got pinch hitters for everyone but olmedo

So true, how does that happen?

LITTLE NELL
09-09-2012, 06:15 PM
I didn't like pinch running for Konerko with 1 out, taking your best hitter out for the rest of the game to me was not the right move. If PK is on second with no outs, OK.

Noneck
09-09-2012, 06:16 PM
Just my opinion, but the ball was hit so hard that Hosmer may have had a chance to nail the guy at 2nd base after the tag (this is I believe Olmedo's thinking, as it was mine watching the play live.) In hindsight, we know that wasn't the case as we saw the play's outcome at 2nd, but in real time I don't think it's a bad judgment call on Olmedo. Not busting hard to first after that, though, is brutally bad.

Olmedo jogged even after Hosmer threw the ball to 2nd. So its still dogassin.

Aesero
09-09-2012, 06:17 PM
So true, how does that happen?

I was hoping he would get yanked out of the game after not running down the line. I would have been happy with ANYONE other than him at the plate at that point.

BigKlu59
09-09-2012, 06:20 PM
Pharmacy is open for your pennant race medication.. Wow, what a **** fest in the 9th and 10th... doesnt the team lead the league in hitting with RISP? Could have fooled my silly ass.. I thought with Rios coming up with 1 out this thing was going to come to a humane end... That was a very painful GIDP..

Another wonderful day in the WSI Neighbourhood... Where the ranting is par excellance..

BK59

ChiSoxGal85
09-09-2012, 06:21 PM
I thought Tyler's name was announced before Johnson pinch hit after the KC pitching change. I haven't checked the box, but I think Flowers was out of the game.
I checked and you're right. Geez, not really anyone left to PH then. :mad:

TheOldRoman
09-09-2012, 06:24 PM
Tigers lose! Thanks for the sweep, Angels. Our beloved losers are still up 2 heading into the deathtrap Tigers series.

WisSoxFan
09-09-2012, 06:24 PM
The Sox are losing to the Royals and Ventura is gettin out managed by Ned ****ing Yost. The one word that seemd to fit this team right now is choking and they're doing it from the manager's office on down. **** me!

billyvsox
09-09-2012, 06:25 PM
Special thanks to Mike Trout, Zach Greinke, Mike Scoscia, Toriiiiiiii Hunter, and the rest of the Angels for making the sox only seem like the 2nd worst team battling for a divison crowd. Still 2 games up.

Now win 3 out of 4 and double the lead and cruise home.

Aesero
09-09-2012, 06:25 PM
Tigers lose. Please take 3 of 4 from them this week and show them that the central is ours.

voodoochile
09-09-2012, 06:25 PM
Sox are draining me of all my andrenaline but they keep on hanging on due to the Kittens continuing to lose, which they just did...

:supernana: :supernana:

3 wins the next 4 days would be really nice...

Soxman219
09-09-2012, 06:26 PM
ANOTHER TIGERS LOSS = ANOTHER BLOWN OPPORTUNITY :mad:

russ99
09-09-2012, 06:26 PM
Olmedo didn't help, but we should have likely won had our other players used their heads more. Three outfield assists cost us at least a run today, not to mention Rios' jack-happy at bat in the ninth.

Might be on the coaching staff. They do preach aggressiveness at the plate and on the bases, almost to a fault.

LITTLE NELL
09-09-2012, 06:26 PM
Some team will win the Central by default.

Noneck
09-09-2012, 06:28 PM
Tigers lose! Thanks for the sweep, Angels. Our beloved losers are still up 2 heading into the deathtrap Tigers series.

It cracks me up, oh well I'm settled down now and the blood pressure has lowered. This is fun, having a shot at the playoffs, no matter how they get in.

Nelfox02
09-09-2012, 06:28 PM
shame on me, when Gordon Beckham of all people comes up with a huge hit in the 10th, I really thought the Sox would AT LEAST tie it up....but no

whatever......no point in looking back now....they step up and win 3/4 vs Det, all is forgiven

heck I will even take 2......just win at least 2......please

Dan H
09-09-2012, 06:29 PM
For the next four days, there will be no scoreboard watching. The Sox will have to do it themselves. It will be interesting to see what team sucks more.

LITTLE NELL
09-09-2012, 06:29 PM
3-3 on the Homestand against 2 bad teams and we pick up 2 games, crazy.

Soxman219
09-09-2012, 06:29 PM
The White Sox haven't beaten the Tigers in 4 months and have lost 7 in a row. I want a sweep to make up for the lost time. 4 for 4 please. I also hope Dunn and Youk can play.

billyvsox
09-09-2012, 06:30 PM
It cracks me up, oh well I'm settled down now and the blood pressure has lowered. This is fun, having a shot at the playoffs, no matter how they get in.

A few weeks ago when we we 16 or 17 games over, we could have blown the divison and still be 3 up in the wild card. Not anymore. Season boils down to next 4 games

Soxman219
09-09-2012, 06:33 PM
If the Sox want the division, they have to do it on their own! For the next 4 days no else can help them but themselves! For once I just want the Sox to win a crucial late 2nd half series!

TheOldRoman
09-09-2012, 06:34 PM
I was hoping he would get yanked out of the game after not running down the line. I would have been happy with ANYONE other than him at the plate at that point.Yeah, that's the kind of thing which needs a manager should probably bench a regular guy after, to send a message. When you are a horrible 31 year-old journeyman player who is lucky to be on anything above an independent league team at this point, there is no excuse whatsoever for not running that out. As was said, he stopped so he wouldn't get tagged, but he should have started running as soon as the ball was thrown. That should have been his last AB for the Sox.

LITTLE NELL
09-09-2012, 06:35 PM
The White Sox haven't beaten the Tigers in 4 months and have lost 7 in a row. I want a sweep to make up for the lost time. 4 for 4 please. I also hope Dunn and Youk can play.

Don't count on Dunn for the Tiger series.
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120909&content_id=38148028&notebook_id=38152074&vkey=notebook_cws&c_id=cws

TheOldRoman
09-09-2012, 06:38 PM
3-3 on the Homestand against 2 bad teams and we pick up 2 games, crazy.Hey! The Royals don't suck just because they're 53-72 against teams other than the White Sox! I mean, they swept the Tigers recently, pulling their record against Detroit to an impressive 4-7. A team like that is to be feared!

Noneck
09-09-2012, 06:43 PM
Not anymore. Season boils down to next 4 games


Nah, Only a Tigers sweep will put the Sox in deep crap. Sox sweeping or winning 3 of 4 will make life tough on the tigers. And if its a split, it is as it is this moment.

cards press box
09-09-2012, 06:45 PM
Hudson, for as bad as the .186 average looks, can at least go up there with a little bit of confidence and draw a walk. Olmedo just had no chance at all. No idea why Lopez and Olmedo are getting starts in front of Hudson right now.

On the radio, Ed Farmer said that the Sox scratched Alexei Ramirez from the starting lineup for disciplinary reasons because he was late to the ballpark. That is why Olmedo was in the lineup today.

The Sox made a huge mistake when they traded Eduardo Escobar for Liriano, that kid got some clutch hits for us right before he was traded. Instead we have guys like Olmedo and Lopez.

I liked Escobar but he is a utility infielder hitting less than .230. I think it was reasonable for the Sox to take a chance on Liriano.


I hate this team. A roster full of lightweight hitting midgets.

Seriously? Yes, the Sox lost a tough game today but they are still in first place by 2 games with only 23 regular season games to go. The Sox are only 3-3 on this important homestand and, yet, have an opportunity to do themselves a lot of good during the next 4 games against Detroit.

billyvsox
09-09-2012, 06:48 PM
Don't count on Dunn for the Tiger series.
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120909&content_id=38148028&notebook_id=38152074&vkey=notebook_cws&c_id=cws

If he's hurt, then he's hurt. I am okay with that, but it better be Dan Johnson who replaces him! And Flowers against lefties (smyly?). Wise or De Aza in CF, take your pick, but save one of them to PR or PH late in the game if we need. Youk needs to be back.....stay with the same lineup for all four games and let the chios fall.

Oh, and BTW, Verlander has been awful lately...do NOT let him dominate us.

Noneck
09-09-2012, 06:50 PM
On the radio, Ed Farmer said that the Sox scratched Alexei Ramirez from the starting lineup for disciplinary reasons because he was late to the ballpark. That is why Olmedo was in the lineup today.






I got a feeling no one will like this but its that time of year when Ramirez cant play, you put the golden boy at SS and Hudson at 2nd. That will give you your best defense and your best lineup.

LITTLE NELL
09-09-2012, 06:52 PM
Hey! The Royals don't suck just because they're 53-72 against teams other than the White Sox! I mean, they swept the Tigers recently, pulling their record against Detroit to an impressive 4-7. A team like that is to be feared!

Does not say much for us.

Soxman219
09-09-2012, 06:55 PM
If he's hurt, then he's hurt. I am okay with that, but it better be Dan Johnson who replaces him! And Flowers against lefties (smyly?). Wise or De Aza in CF, take your pick, but save one of them to PR or PH late in the game if we need. Youk needs to be back.....stay with the same lineup for all four games and let the chios fall.

Oh, and BTW, Verlander has been awful lately...do NOT let him dominate us.

Also, PLEASE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF CABERRA'S BAD LEGS! Bunt to him!

shingo10
09-09-2012, 06:57 PM
Farmer and DJ were really on the team for being lethargic today...they were hot when AJ showed up Ramirez after getting thrown out at third and when the team didn't congratulate Rey for his sac bunt in the 9th. Put it behind us, the next four days will say a lot about who will be playing playoff baseball.

oldgrouch
09-09-2012, 07:02 PM
Definitely weakened the bench by a lot. But we needed a pitcher.

We Liriano and we still need a pitcher.:scratch::scratch:

LITTLE NELL
09-09-2012, 07:02 PM
A few weeks ago when we we 16 or 17 games over, we could have blown the divison and still be 3 up in the wild card. Not anymore. Season boils down to next 4 games

Me thinks that the 9 game road trip we have after the Tiger series will determine our fate. 3 in Minny, 3 in KC and 3 in LA. Tough trip with teams in our division who play us tough. We play the Angels tough but they are hot right now. I can't see us doing better than 4-5 on the trip. We are due for one more hot streak and tomorrow would be a good day to start.

TDog
09-09-2012, 07:14 PM
I would rather have Ray Charles bat in that situation over Ray Olmedo...

Robin has looked every bit of a rookie manager the last few weeks.

Not good.

Sending Youkilis off for the paternity thing and pulling Dunn's oblique muscle were his big mistakes. I don't know why Ventura told Ramirez to show up lat the ballpark today.

Ventura managed well enough to sweep the Royals this weekend. Friday with the score tied in the eighth, Ventura managed the tying run at third with one out and his closer up in the bullpen. Today he managed the bases loaded with one out in the bottom of a scoreless ninth and the tying run at third and winning run at second with one out trailing 2-1 in the 10th.

There was nothing wrong with Ventura's managing. The problem was lack of execution.

Today the White Sox didn't execute when they needed to execute to win, but that isn't the the ultimate reason they lost. They struggled against Guthrie, who shut down the Tigers and Rangers in his previous starts. But Guthrie got help from outfielders throwing out three White Sox on the bases. The run in the first didn't score because a great throw was complemented by a great block of the plate. Ramirez got a solid single in the bottom of the ninth today with a runner on second, but as well as the Royals were playing today, there was no way the run was going to score.
Not with Rios coming up with one out and the bases loaded.

As for execution, Olmedo's strike out didn't bother me as much as De Aza's, except that Olmedo's ended the game. And Olmedo not running full speed to first after stopping so he wouldn't get tagged on the sacrifice bunt (that should have set up the winning run) was more egregious.

The Royals played a great game. The White Sox played a great defensive game against a very good offensive team -- until Myers, who had two out and no one on base, gave up two runs.

Today the Sox should have won with no pitcher pitching more than four innings. Ventura did a pretty good job of managing the bullpen until Myers didn't show up. But in the end, the Royals played a great game, regardless of their third-place record.

I wonder what would have happened if De Aza had tried to score on that Ramirez hit in the ninth. Maybe the Royals outfield had one bad throw in them today.

Lip Man 1
09-09-2012, 07:17 PM
Sox have lost 14 games where they allowed three runs or less.

Sox are 5-8 in extra inning games this year.

I understand the hate towards Olmedo (it's deserved...) but more hate should be directed towards ****-for-brains Ramirez who put Robin and the club in this situation in the first place and if you want you can also question why Kenny didn't improve the bench when at least on paper, there were viable potential options out there.

Sox should have had this won in the 9th inning but didn't. Typical.

I guess the Sox should be grateful they at least won a game against the garbage Royals. "Catfish" Guthrie's scoreless streak against the Sox is now what? 22 innings, something like that? The Sox see him out there and completely shut down...it's now mental.

Well now it's Detroit. The division won't be decided by Thursday but whoever plays well will go a long way towards sealing it up. Tigers have won 10 of the last 12 and have played better in Chicago than the Sox have played in Detroit.

We'll see which starters are missing from the Sox lineup tomorrow since it's now become a daily occurrence.

At least the Bears won.

Lip

SephClone89
09-09-2012, 07:24 PM
At least the Bears won.

:rolleyes:

amsteel
09-09-2012, 07:32 PM
On the radio, Ed Farmer said that the Sox scratched Alexei Ramirez from the starting lineup for disciplinary reasons because he was late to the ballpark.

Terrible decision. I wish RV had some September managing under his belt.

cv sox fan
09-09-2012, 07:35 PM
I was at the game today,the sox look terrible,sat sec 102 Rios is back to not hustling on fly balls,letting them drop in front we are in a play off hunt. Olmedo is terriblE He is not the only one to blame. Ventura has been out managed since the Baltimore series. Thank god Detroit is pathetic now too.

PalehosePlanet
09-09-2012, 07:36 PM
Sending Youkilis off for the paternity thing and pulling Dunn's oblique muscle were his big mistakes. I don't know why Ventura told Ramirez to show up lat the ballpark today.

Ventura managed well enough to sweep the Royals this weekend. Friday with the score tied in the eighth, Ventura managed the tying run at third with one out and his closer up in the bullpen. Today he managed the bases loaded with one out in the bottom of a scoreless ninth and the tying run at third and winning run at second with one out trailing 2-1 in the 10th.

There was nothing wrong with Ventura's managing. The problem was lack of execution.

Today the White Sox didn't execute when they needed to execute to win, but that isn't the the ultimate reason they lost. They struggled against Guthrie, who shut down the Tigers and Rangers in his previous starts. But Guthrie got help from outfielders throwing out three White Sox on the bases. The run in the first didn't score because a great throw was complemented by a great block of the plate. Ramirez got a solid single in the bottom of the ninth today with a runner on second, but as well as the Royals were playing today, there was no way the run was going to score.
Not with Rios coming up with one out and the bases loaded.

As for execution, Olmedo's strike out didn't bother me as much as De Aza's, except that Olmedo's ended the game. And Olmedo not running full speed to first after stopping so he wouldn't get tagged on the sacrifice bunt (that should have set up the winning run) was more egregious.

The Royals played a great game. The White Sox played a great defensive game against a very good offensive team -- until Myers, who had two out and no one on base, gave up two runs.

Today the Sox should have won with no pitcher pitching more than four innings. Ventura did a pretty good job of managing the bullpen until Myers didn't show up. But in the end, the Royals played a great game, regardless of their third-place record.

I wonder what would have happened if De Aza had tried to score on that Ramirez hit in the ninth. Maybe the Royals outfield had one bad throw in them today.

This is a complete crock of ****. On Friday, Ventura left Beckham in to hit against a guy throwing in the upper 90's when Gordon is by far our worst fastball hitter. He should have pinch hit Johnson for him, no ifs ands or buts. An absolutely terrible decision; a good manager does NOT ask his players to do something they cannot.

Today Robin brought in Myers who has been KILLED by the Royals since the minute he got here. Robin apparently doesn't look at numbers, stats or trends but goes by the old lefty-on-lefty, righty-on-righty philosophy like his idiot predecessor. He should have left Veal in,especially since he could keep the baserunner at first closer.

Tomorrow, when Austin Jackson leads off in the 1st against Quintana, Robin should immediately go to the pen and bring in a righty.

A. Cavatica
09-09-2012, 07:40 PM
Charlotte is going to the IL Finals. Is the extension of their season keeping some better players than Rey Olmedo down on the farm?

Brent Morel is playing third for them, he's certainly a better player.

Did the Knights ditch all of Conor Jackson, Dallas McPherson, and Fukudome? They are not relying on AAAA players to get it done.

tony1972
09-09-2012, 07:41 PM
I penciled in an L when I saw Robin calling for the sac bunt in the 9th.

I would love to see our Sox managers on the TV Show Intervention (today's addiction - sac bunts)....

Dick Allen
09-09-2012, 08:03 PM
The Sox are not good enough to be gift-wrapping 2 games to those ******* this weekend. Everybody here is saying they need to take 3 of 4 from Det this week to build a decent lead. Well it should have been a 4 game lead right now!!! They're blowing every chance to take control of this division, and now they're really finding themselves in must-win situations. Oh yeah, in no way, shape or form do you leave yourself stuck with a AAA bum as your last hope in that situation during a pennant race.

Aesero
09-09-2012, 08:03 PM
I penciled in an L when I saw Robin calling for the sac bunt in the 9th.

nothing really wrong with a sac bunt in that situation

tstrike2000
09-09-2012, 08:06 PM
It was good to hang out with JB98 and Chisoxgirl during the game and I'm glad they were there because that was about the only highlight. The Sox not cashing in during the first three innings really hurt. Some poor baserunning, in particular Alexei being thrown out at third to end the inning and AJ getting caught between first and second. The rest was just classic Royals baseball against us. Balls hit right to them off our our bats or their typical ducksnorts that fall in and don't even dent the grass. JB pointed out that Brett Myers had something like a 21.00 ERA against KC and it showed once again. Rios hitting into a bases loaded double play to end the ninth inning was killer. Now, we need to get at least Youkilis back. If we have to watch Jose Lopez and Ray Olmedo play again, some people may throw themselves into oncoming traffic. With his at-bats today, I'm surprised Olmedo is anywhere above AA.

Lip Man 1
09-09-2012, 08:30 PM
Stat of the Day:

The Sox have scored three runs or less in NINE of the 15 games played this year with Kansas City...against a pitching staff that ranks in the bottom half of the league in most categories.

Lip

34rancher
09-09-2012, 08:34 PM
Don't count on Dunn for the Tiger series.
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120909&content_id=38148028&notebook_id=38152074&vkey=notebook_cws&c_id=cws

I haven't counted on him in a year and a half. At least he's not going to set the strikeout record.

As for Ray....Pack his bags. Most have hit on his not running hard on the grounder to first. WHat I didn't get was so what if he gets tagged? Just makes the play at second have to be a tag not a force.

What I haven't seen anyone get fired up :angry: about it that he stuck out to end the game on a dropped third strike and didn't even try to run to first....GRRRRRRR.......

Also, anyone else tired of us not scoring runs without a homer? Our hitting with RISP has to be almost northside like the last month...

The Immigrant
09-09-2012, 08:40 PM
Two tough losses this weekend, but we still picked up a game on Detroit. Need to take two from them this week. I don't care if we end up with only 85 wins so long as we get in the playoffs, and I think we will. No matter what, I will enjoy the next few weeks.

RadioheadRocks
09-09-2012, 08:48 PM
I agree they dont deserve it the way they are playing, but neither do the Tigers right now. Heck, if the Tigers didn't have us to beat up on, they would be 6 or 7 out by now.

As much as I hate saying it, all this tells me is that whichever team wins this division will most likely be seeing an early exit from the playoffs.

TDog
09-09-2012, 09:24 PM
This is a complete crock of ****. On Friday, Ventura left Beckham in to hit against a guy throwing in the upper 90's when Gordon is by far our worst fastball hitter. He should have pinch hit Johnson for him, no ifs ands or buts. An absolutely terrible decision; a good manager does NOT ask his players to do something they cannot.

Today Robin brought in Myers who has been KILLED by the Royals since the minute he got here. Robin apparently doesn't look at numbers, stats or trends but goes by the old lefty-on-lefty, righty-on-righty philosophy like his idiot predecessor. He should have left Veal in,especially since he could keep the baserunner at first closer.

Tomorrow, when Austin Jackson leads off in the 1st against Quintana, Robin should immediately go to the pen and bring in a righty.

First of all, baseball rules forbid relieving the staring pitcher before the first hitter of the game is either retired or reaches base. In 1976, Nolan Ryan's manager wrote his name in the starting lineup on a day when Ryan wasn't scheduled to start, and he had to pitch to White Sox leadoff hitter Chet Lemon before scheduled starter Gary Ross came in to relieve him. And Dick Williams was an experienced manager at the time.

Second, when you start a reliever who can only go four innings, you bring in pitchers to get clutch outs and you're in th 10th inning, you don't have many options left.

Also every time a player fails to execute, some complain the manager is asking him to do something he cannot. Beckham struck out against a fastball pitcher Friday. Today he doubled against a pitcher throwing in the upper 90s, putting th potential winning run on second base and De Aza struck out. It wasn't too long ago that Ramirez failed in a sacrifice attempt and an insider pointed out that Ramirez can't bunt, that he doesn't like to bunt, despite the fact that he had successfully sacrificed a few times and even attemted bunt hits on his own.

Just because a player doesn't execute doesn't mean the manager is asking him to do something he can't do. In the case of Beckham, he did something Sunday you said he couldn't do Friday. And few would argue that De Aza could have and should have put the ball in play to at least tie the game today. That he failed to execute was the final reason in the list of reasons why the Sox lost.

SI1020
09-09-2012, 09:44 PM
First of all, baseball rules forbid relieving the staring pitcher before the first hitter of the game is either retired or reaches base.
I think there is an injury exception to this rule.


http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYA/NYA196008230.shtml

CHISOXFAN13
09-09-2012, 09:56 PM
I penciled in an L when I saw Robin calling for the sac bunt in the 9th.

I would love to see our Sox managers on the TV Show Intervention (today's addiction - sac bunts)....

You wanted Olmedo swinging away there? Wow.

gosox41
09-09-2012, 10:03 PM
Offensively bankrupt performance, NOT the thing we needed going into what could be the series that defines our season tomorrow.

I'll repeat the Sox' rallying cry: "GO TIGERS' OPPONENT!!"

Terribly hitting today,but if we run the bases as aggressivly against Detroit as we did today, we're sure to score more runs.

That being said, what happened to Jeff Manto and his magic. Though not having 1/3 of your starting line up at your disposal isn't making things any easier.



Bob

TheOldRoman
09-09-2012, 10:03 PM
As much as I hate saying it, all this tells me is that whichever team wins this division will most likely be seeing an early exit from the playoffs.The Sox are 26-24 over their last 50 games. However, against teams other than the Tigers and Royals, they are are 24-11 during that stretch. That tells me they are pretty good when they aren't playing the two teams which are in their heads for some reason. There is no way Detroit gets the wildcard. If the Sox make it, I think they would have a respectable shot against the Rangers (6-3), Angels (4-3), Yankees (5-2), Athletics (3-3), and even the Orioles, who lost Markakis for the year.

lpneck
09-09-2012, 10:04 PM
Was at the game today and had a great time with the obvious exception of the final score, so I haven't read through all the game threads yet.

Has Olmedo been DFA'd yet?

You are a AAAA player, get a start in a huge game with 3 weeks to go, and can't ****ing run hard to first base?

Then you put together the worst at-bat anyone on the team has had this season to end the game. Then the final pitch bounces in the dirt, the catcher drops it, and you STILL don't run to first?

I mean, he would have been out by 50 feet at first base, but at least make them throw the ****ing ball.

I can live with the fact that he isn't very good and had a terrible game, I can't live with the fact that a guy who is barely hanging on to a career can't be bothered to hustle in September.

I hope KW literally had the clubhouse staff pack his bags for him by the time he was back in the clubhouse after the game.

JB98
09-09-2012, 10:24 PM
First, a few points about today's game:

1. Santiago needs to be a little bit more efficient with his pitches. I'm encouraged by the missed bats. Strikeouts are good things, but if he's going to be a successful starter, he needs to get a quick out every now and then so he can get deeper into the ballgame.

2. Thank goodness we acquired Youkilis. Our backup infielders are not good, and we've seen that the last few days. Hurry back, Youk.

3. Rios with the bases loaded and one out in the ninth. De Aza with second and third with one out in the 10th. I'll take my chance with those two guys in those situations any time. Just didn't work out today, and that's frustrating given the stakes.

Now, for the bigger picture.

Last Sunday night, the Sox went to bed tied with the Tigers with 29 games to play. Tonight, they will go to bed with a two-game lead with 23 games to play. I'll take it. I would have been very happy with that scenario last Sunday night. Sure, I would have thought the Sox would go 5-1 and Detroit would have gone 3-3. Instead, it turned out to be 3-3 and 1-5. Still, this was not a horrible week for the Sox. It wasn't a great week, either, but it was not horrible.

My advice to any frustrated fan here is this:

Two up with 23 to play > tied with 29 to play.

Repeat this to yourself whenever you get pissed off.

kittle42
09-09-2012, 10:50 PM
I know but I wish we could have traded someone else instead of Escobar.

Escobar, like Olmedo, is ****ing terrible.

CHISOXFAN13
09-09-2012, 10:58 PM
First, a few points about today's game:

1. Santiago needs to be a little bit more efficient with his pitches. I'm encouraged by the missed bats. Strikeouts are good things, but if he's going to be a successful starter, he needs to get a quick out every now and then so he can get deeper into the ballgame.

2. Thank goodness we acquired Youkilis. Our backup infielders are not good, and we've seen that the last few days. Hurry back, Youk.

3. Rios with the bases loaded and one out in the ninth. De Aza with second and third with one out in the 10th. I'll take my chance with those two guys in those situations any time. Just didn't work out today, and that's frustrating given the stakes.

Now, for the bigger picture.

Last Sunday night, the Sox went to bed tied with the Tigers with 29 games to play. Tonight, they will go to bed with a two-game lead with 23 games to play. I'll take it. I would have been very happy with that scenario last Sunday night. Sure, I would have thought the Sox would go 5-1 and Detroit would have gone 3-3. Instead, it turned out to be 3-3 and 1-5. Still, this was not a horrible week for the Sox. It wasn't a great week, either, but it was not horrible.

My advice to any frustrated fan here is this:

Two up with 23 to play > tied with 29 to play.

Repeat this to yourself whenever you get pissed off.

Great perspective.

And I'm with you. There isn't another guy on the roster I'd rather have up in that situation than Rios. He's been rock solid in those scenarios all year.

shingo10
09-09-2012, 11:10 PM
What's happened to Brent Morel? Is he done for the year? I thought he was possibly coming back in September.

Lip Man 1
09-09-2012, 11:17 PM
JB:

As always you make sense but that doesn't change the fact as Dick and others have said that they could easily, EASILY be three or four up which would make an incredible amount of difference.

They are letting chances slip away from them. You hope it doesn't bite them on the ass with three weeks to go...if it does, they have only themselves to blame but that won't make me feel any better.

Lip

The Immigrant
09-09-2012, 11:19 PM
What's happened to Brent Morel? Is he done for the year? I thought he was possibly coming back in September.

He's busy playing bad baseball in Charlotte.

Brian26
09-09-2012, 11:29 PM
My advice to any frustrated fan here is this:

Two up with 23 to play > tied with 29 to play.

Repeat this to yourself whenever you get pissed off.

Agreed, but the fact is:

Three up with 23 to play > two up with 23 to play.

Sox gave one away today. Just because the Tigers have been terrible since last Sunday, there's no guarantee they will continue to be terrible over the next three weeks.

fram40
09-09-2012, 11:38 PM
First of all, baseball rules forbid relieving the staring pitcher before the first hitter of the game is either retired or reaches base. In 1976, Nolan Ryan's manager wrote his name in the starting lineup on a day when Ryan wasn't scheduled to start, and he had to pitch to White Sox leadoff hitter Chet Lemon before scheduled starter Gary Ross came in to relieve him. And Dick Williams was an experienced manager at the time.

Second, when you start a reliever who can only go four innings, you bring in pitchers to get clutch outs and you're in th 10th inning, you don't have many options left.

Also every time a player fails to execute, some complain the manager is asking him to do something he cannot. Beckham struck out against a fastball pitcher Friday. Today he doubled against a pitcher throwing in the upper 90s, putting th potential winning run on second base and De Aza struck out. It wasn't too long ago that Ramirez failed in a sacrifice attempt and an insider pointed out that Ramirez can't bunt, that he doesn't like to bunt, despite the fact that he had successfully sacrificed a few times and even attemted bunt hits on his own.

Just because a player doesn't execute doesn't mean the manager is asking him to do something he can't do. In the case of Beckham, he did something Sunday you said he couldn't do Friday. And few would argue that De Aza could have and should have put the ball in play to at least tie the game today. That he failed to execute was the final reason in the list of reasons why the Sox lost.

Except Bacon hit an off-speed pitch for the double. Holland blew 98 mph fastballs past him on the first two pitches. Knowing Gordon was over-matched if he got another, I told my friend that the only chance he had was an off-speed pitch. And Holland served it up - 89 mph according to the rightfield speed gun. I was shocked - yet happy to see it's not just Sox who make ridiculous pitch selections.

I also agree with JB. I liked Rios' chance in the 9th and I really liked ADA in the 10th. They failed - it happens in baseball about 70% of the time when hitting. Maybe less given they did not need a base hit in either situation. But both provided the worst possible outcomes - a GIDP by Rios and K by ADA. Sac Fly , high hopper, almost anything else wins or ties the game. And I really thought both were gonna come through. I knew Olmedo was a gone goose as soon as he walked up. He had no chance whatsoever.

Let's win Game #1 and put some real pressure on the Tigers. I suspect they won't handle the pressure very well.

Let's go Quintana!

Nellie_Fox
09-10-2012, 01:07 AM
Youk's wife just gave birth and players get three days for paternity.

BTW how long does a guy need for maternity leave?Exactly. It's September and a pennant race. Just because you get three days doesn't mean you have to take them. Flowers only took two days last month. I had two kids, and went back to work the next day.

shame on me, when Gordon Beckham of all people comes up with a huge hit in the 10th, I really thought the Sox would AT LEAST tie it up....but noTake a look at Beckham's splits for the last 7, 14, and 28 days. Not too bad, and improving all the time.

JB98
09-10-2012, 01:34 AM
JB:

As always you make sense but that doesn't change the fact as Dick and others have said that they could easily, EASILY be three or four up which would make an incredible amount of difference.

They are letting chances slip away from them. You hope it doesn't bite them on the ass with three weeks to go...if it does, they have only themselves to blame but that won't make me feel any better.

Lip

Sure, the Sox blew a chance today and that is frustrating. We had our best player up there with the bags loaded and one out in the ninth. Rios has come through many times this year, but it didn't happen today. That sucks.

The Tigers are also letting chances slip away from them. Detroit has lost FOUR 3-2 games in the last week. Right now, neither the Sox nor the Tigers are playing well.

But what's done is done. The Sox are fortunate this 4-9 stretch of ball has cost them only one game in the standings. They still have a lead. I'd rather be two up than two down at this stage. The Sox just need a damn winning streak. Hopefully they have one left in them.

JB98
09-10-2012, 01:36 AM
Agreed, but the fact is:

Three up with 23 to play > two up with 23 to play.

Sox gave one away today. Just because the Tigers have been terrible since last Sunday, there's no guarantee they will continue to be terrible over the next three weeks.

The Sox are playing well below their capabilities as well. There's no guarantee of anything in this race. That's why we watch.

Noneck
09-10-2012, 01:39 AM
Exactly. It's September and a pennant race. Just because you get three days doesn't mean you have to take them. Flowers only took two days last month. I had two kids, and went back to work the next day.



That was the point I was trying to make. That was why I asked if his child and wife were ok.

I did the same after one day, and I am sure he has more resources for care of both than you and I had.

JB98
09-10-2012, 01:41 AM
Except Bacon hit an off-speed pitch for the double. Holland blew 98 mph fastballs past him on the first two pitches. Knowing Gordon was over-matched if he got another, I told my friend that the only chance he had was an off-speed pitch. And Holland served it up - 89 mph according to the rightfield speed gun. I was shocked - yet happy to see it's not just Sox who make ridiculous pitch selections.

I also agree with JB. I liked Rios' chance in the 9th and I really liked ADA in the 10th. They failed - it happens in baseball about 70% of the time when hitting. Maybe less given they did not need a base hit in either situation. But both provided the worst possible outcomes - a GIDP by Rios and K by ADA. Sac Fly , high hopper, almost anything else wins or ties the game. And I really thought both were gonna come through. I knew Olmedo was a gone goose as soon as he walked up. He had no chance whatsoever.

Let's win Game #1 and put some real pressure on the Tigers. I suspect they won't handle the pressure very well.

Let's go Quintana!

I said the exact same thing to tstrike and ChiSoxGirl. I think my exact words were, "C'mon, Holland, do something dumb here. Try to trick him with a slider. Speed up his bat." I think tstrike said, "Yeah, a hanging slider on 0-2 here would be nice." Sure enough, that dumb son of a bitch threw Bacon a slider. Too bad it didn't cost him the game.

guillensdisciple
09-10-2012, 01:54 AM
That was the point I was trying to make. That was why I asked if his child and wife were ok.

I did the same after one day, and I am sure he has more resources for care of both than you and I had.

Ye well you come home everyday, baseball players are home half of the year so he is probably trying to see his child for as long as he can until the offseason.

Nellie_Fox
09-10-2012, 01:59 AM
Ye well you come home everyday, baseball players are home half of the year so he is probably trying to see his child for as long as he can until the offseason.Oh, please. I worked shifts. I was working when they were home, and I was home when they were at school, plus most of my career I was also going to college pretty much full time. Baseball players are at home for half the regular season, and are off completely for about four months a year.

I'm sorry, I guess I'm old school. It's pennant race time; you don't take the absolute maximum time you are permitted. You make it sound like going back to work is child abandonment.

DSpivack
09-10-2012, 02:12 AM
Looking at the thread title, I thought of a song, even if I missed the point of that title.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRuTMK73orY&feature=player_detailpage#t=28s

LITTLE NELL
09-10-2012, 06:14 AM
Oh, please. I worked shifts. I was working when they were home, and I was home when they were at school, plus most of my career I was also going to college pretty much full time. Baseball players are at home for half the regular season, and are off completely for about four months a year.

I'm sorry, I guess I'm old school. It's pennant race time; you don't take the absolute maximum time you are permitted. You make it sound like going back to work is child abandonment.

My wife gave birth to our son at 6:30 AM, I was on the job at 1PM that same day which was my normal starting time.

guillensdisciple
09-10-2012, 07:38 AM
Oh, please. I worked shifts. I was working when they were home, and I was home when they were at school, plus most of my career I was also going to college pretty much full time. Baseball players are at home for half the regular season, and are off completely for about four months a year.

I'm sorry, I guess I'm old school. It's pennant race time; you don't take the absolute maximum time you are permitted. You make it sound like going back to work is child abandonment.

No, I get it, I'm just trying to understand Youk's reasoning. While you're right,he probably has not seen his family AT ALL since the trade so maybe that has something to do with it.
Or maybe he is quietly healing injuries too since he does have those knee problems.

Dan H
09-10-2012, 07:55 AM
Oh, please. I worked shifts. I was working when they were home, and I was home when they were at school, plus most of my career I was also going to college pretty much full time. Baseball players are at home for half the regular season, and are off completely for about four months a year.

I'm sorry, I guess I'm old school. It's pennant race time; you don't take the absolute maximum time you are permitted. You make it sound like going back to work is child abandonment.

I am for Youklis taking his alloted time. A new born doesn't happen every day and is more important than a pennant race. And if this team can't win because of one missing player, maybe it isn't that good after all.

wassagstdu
09-10-2012, 08:00 AM
Has Ventura quit on the team? Or has the team quit on Ventura? Or are they still quitting on Ozzie?

Looked like Alexei got even with Ventura for benching him by making the last out at third. If Konerko had been left in he would not have tried that -- and he would have had one more AB if it were even needed.

doublem23
09-10-2012, 08:59 AM
Has Ventura quit on the team? Or has the team quit on Ventura? Or are they still quitting on Ozzie?

Looked like Alexei got even with Ventura for benching him by making the last out at third. If Konerko had been left in he would not have tried that -- and he would have had one more AB if it were even needed.

Surprising as it may be, since the start of August, the Sox are only a few games off the pace of the best record in the AL and neck and neck with every team in the division. And this with a pitching staff running on fumes.

I can't believe anyone can actually be critical of the overall job Ventura has done this year, but I guess some people have their own petty agendas to keep trying to push. :shrug:

slavko
09-10-2012, 09:06 AM
Exactly. It's September and a pennant race. Just because you get three days doesn't mean you have to take them. Flowers only took two days last month. I had two kids, and went back to work the next day.

Take a look at Beckham's splits for the last 7, 14, and 28 days. Not too bad, and improving all the time.

With all due respect, I've been looking at cherry-picked stats about Beckham since August 2009. That's a long time, even with Manto Magic at work.:wink:

kufram
09-10-2012, 09:13 AM
We are struggling, no doubt but we have struggled before a couple of times this season. We also have had a number of injury issues. Has Ventura quit on the team? Please. I don't think we have any quitters... except for a few fans. We have a couple of guys I don't want to see batting but they probably won't bat much.

No predictions from me, but what is of no doubt to me is that anything can happen including a sudden winning streak.

Detroit is coming to town from L.A. in worse shape than we are and their ace got a bloody nose last time out and he's pitched more innings than anyone for a while now I believe.

SI1020
09-10-2012, 09:15 AM
Surprising as it may be, since the start of August, the Sox are only a few games off the pace of the best record in the AL and neck and neck with every team in the division. And this with a pitching staff running on fumes.

I can't believe anyone can actually be critical of the overall job Ventura has done this year, but I guess some people have their own petty agendas to keep trying to push. :shrug: I would have to disagree. Criticism is not necessarily petty or mean spirited, at times it can be logical and reasonable. Robin Ventura is probably my favorite post 1967 White Sox player and definitely in my all time top 5 or so. I like a lot of things he has done, stressing fundamentals, keeping an even keel, going with young guys when necessary, and not throwing players under the bus just to mention a few. His in game strategies and handling of pitchers sadly reminds me of Ozzie in his last several years. At this point he is no match for some of the more experienced managers in a tight game. Like a lot of you I'm pleasantly surprised that the Sox have hung in there this long. Even with that you can't blame those of us who see the Tigers just about gift wrapping the division and the Sox acting like they're trying to hand them a loaded grenade. Some of the tired old bad habits of 2006-11 are back and at times Robin appears in over his head. That's my opinion and the only agenda I have is that the Sox win every game possible.

doublem23
09-10-2012, 09:25 AM
I would have to disagree. Criticism is not necessarily petty or mean spirited, at times it can be logical and reasonable. Robin Ventura is probably my favorite post 1967 White Sox player and definitely in my all time top 5 or so. I like a lot of things he has done, stressing fundamentals, keeping an even keel, going with young guys when necessary, and not throwing players under the bus just to mention a few. His in game strategies and handling of pitchers sadly reminds me of Ozzie in his last several years. At this point he is no match for some of the more experienced managers in a tight game. Like a lot of you I'm pleasantly surprised that the Sox have hung in there this long. Even with that you can't blame those of us who see the Tigers just about gift wrapping the division and the Sox acting like they're trying to hand them a loaded grenade. Some of the tired old bad habits of 2006-11 are back and at times Robin appears in over his head. That's my opinion and the only agenda I have is that the Sox win every game possible.

Absolutely, if people want to talk about his in-game management or strategic decisions, that's one thing, that's a bit different than suggesting he's quit on the Sox or vice versa. Robin no doubt has his flaws, but the Sox also probably are the least talented team in the AL play-off hunt right now (maybe Oakland). That counts for something.

jdm2662
09-10-2012, 09:53 AM
Oh, please. I worked shifts. I was working when they were home, and I was home when they were at school, plus most of my career I was also going to college pretty much full time. Baseball players are at home for half the regular season, and are off completely for about four months a year.

I'm sorry, I guess I'm old school. It's pennant race time; you don't take the absolute maximum time you are permitted. You make it sound like going back to work is child abandonment.

Congrats. Not everyone or everything is the same as you experienced. We welcomed our first son in April. My wife was three weeks away from turning 38 when she gave birth. Thankfully, I was home because she had complications and I had to take her back to the hospital a week later. I guess when your blood pressure is over 200/100, it's bad. Also, the medication she had gave her a massive headache, and it took over 36 hours to go away. She had these symptoms during the pregancy, but kept working anyway. It was't until her boss told her to go home is when she stopped. The doctors wanted her home two months before she actually did. I took 2.5 weeks off because I earned the time off, and I was going to use it. Good thing I did. My wife pretty much was out of commission for most of the time.

And, she went back to work full time.

On another note, my co-worker's wife, who had no issues during her pregenacy, was in the hospital for 11, count them 11 days after she gave birth. He took off longer than I did, but I perfectly understood...

Believe it or not, the Sox could've easily won Friday and Sunday's game without Youk. I have zero issue with him taking the max time off. The extra rest only helped him. I also had no issue in 2005 with the players taking time off, either.

jdm2662
09-10-2012, 10:24 AM
Did I seriously read people are actually suggesting Robin has quit on the team? Seriously? Where do you come up with this? His in-game management decisions has NOTHING to do with quitting on the team. A rookie manager is going to make mistakes. It's ok to point these out. But quitting on the team? Give me a break.

DonnieDarko
09-10-2012, 11:04 AM
Did I read that people are bitching about Youkilis taking paternity leave? Are you ****ing kidding me? Hell, I think that he should get more than just three days of paternity leave, but that's not on me. As things are, I have no issue with him taking those three days off to be with his newborn and his wife.

WisSoxFan
09-10-2012, 11:09 AM
Has Ventura quit on the team? Or has the team quit on Ventura? Or are they still quitting on Ozzie?

Looked like Alexei got even with Ventura for benching him by making the last out at third. If Konerko had been left in he would not have tried that -- and he would have had one more AB if it were even needed.

That's not a terrible point unless you consider that Alexei got a base hit in that spot.

I've been critical of Ventura of late as well and I wouldn't have pinch ran for Konerko there in a normal situation either, but since it was Ramirez I was fine with it and when it was Ramirez up in the 9th in his spot I was actually happy about the move. Unfortunately our best overall player (Rios) came through with the worst possible outcome. That sucked, but it happens.

voodoochile
09-10-2012, 11:13 AM
I'm not going to begrudge a man 3 days off with his wife and newborn child, just be glad it happened against KC and not today. Just because millions of people watch you doing your job doesn't make it more important than any other job in the world. In the end, it's just a job. Congratulations, Youk, please come back and dedicate the lat 3 weeks of the season to your kid and tear the cover off the ball in his honor...

kittle42
09-10-2012, 11:21 AM
The grumbling about Kevin Youkilis taking 3 days of paternity leave in this thread is some of the - I'll just say it - stupidest crap I've read on these boards in a long time, and that includes the "Has Robin quit on this team?" crap that is also in this thread.

But I'll let those of you who obviously know much, much more about Kevin Youkilis' personal life make your judgments. After all, you were back on that assembly line moments after the kid's head poked out!

DonnieDarko
09-10-2012, 11:31 AM
My wife gave birth to our son at 6:30 AM, I was on the job at 1PM that same day which was my normal starting time.

Just saw this post, should have added it to my last one.

IMO, that's not a very comendable thing to do.

WisSoxFan
09-10-2012, 11:39 AM
On a complete aside, I'm still a little shocked the Royals didn't walk De Aza in the 10th yesterday to face Olmedo and Danks.

guillensdisciple
09-10-2012, 11:44 AM
Just saw this post, should have added it to my last one.

IMO, that's not a very comendable thing to do.

I think Nell is older than we are, so I think some of this might be time based. Can't explain what guides my theory, but I have heard the same
From my parents and grandparents. I don't know if we have a place to judge them. Rules in work and society change, so we see things a bit differently.

DonnieDarko
09-10-2012, 11:47 AM
If rules in work and society change, you should change with them--think that's a seperate topic, though. Anyway, things might have been different back then, sure. There wasn't really any paternal leave back then. But that doesn't mean that I think you should feel proud about leaving your newborn and wife in a hospital while you had to go to work.

At least, that's what I inferred from Nell's post.

kufram
09-10-2012, 11:53 AM
I was not sure about the appointment of Ventura as manager. It seemed like a shot in the dark to me, and possibly a fall on your sword for the team situation. I've changed my mind (something I wish politicians would do more of). The team has succeeded beyond almost everyone's wildest dreams including some of the baseball management wizards on this board. He has a team that, for the most part (not right now obviously) played an exciting brand of baseball.

By the way, it is hard to get thrown out 3 times in a game but I can't argue with making a team make those throws. KC can play no matter what some people here say.

As far as in-game management I'll leave the postmortems to the wizards, but if he is so bad it can probably be put down to inexperience so he will get better. I wonder what Detroit must think if they can't do as well as we have with Jim Leyland in charge.

The problem with loving your team if they win and hating your team if they lose is that you're going to spend at least 40% of every year hating them.

As far Youk's paternity leave goes. It was not very long ago that paternity leave did not exist so I'll spare a thought for those not enlightened as yet. We've come along way, daddy.

DonnieDarko
09-10-2012, 11:53 AM
It's a different world today. When I was a kid they usually didn't even allow the father in the delivery room. In many cases your boss would expect you to be to work on time regardless.

*points up at his last post*

guillensdisciple
09-10-2012, 12:23 PM
It's a different world today. When I was a kid they usually didn't even allow the father in the delivery room. In many cases your boss would expect you to be to work on time regardless.

Ye my dad wasn't even there when I was born. Well, he wasn't there because he was in Cuba and I didn't see him until I was a year old, but I don't think it was that big of a deal back then. At least my dad doesn't sit there and pout about it lol.

Nellie_Fox
09-10-2012, 12:24 PM
With all due respect, I've been looking at cherry-picked stats about Beckham since August 2009. That's a long time, even with Manto Magic at work.:wink:All I was doing was responding to the post indicating that Beckham at bat is a sure out. I was pointing out that he's been pretty decent offensively for the last month; I wasn't making any claims that he's been permanently "fixed." A manager should be looking at what a player is doing right now, not what he was doing two months ago, or last year, in deciding whether to risk letting him bat in a given situation.

On the other topic, I knew full well that the younger posters would get all incensed because I think a new father should go back to work. You guys are used to the idea of being paid for more and more days off. Yes, forty years ago your employer, almost without exception, expected you back at work as soon as possible. If your wife was having complications like those listed in one post above, sure, they'd understand. But normal, healthy childbirth? Once you had a chance to get 8 hours of sleep, get back to work. And our children and families managed to survive it. In fact, the divorce rate was a lot lower then than it is now. :geezer:

Chez
09-10-2012, 12:25 PM
I'm an optimist by nature (especially when it comes to sports) but notwithstanding the outcome of the Tigerss game, I currently feel as low about the White Sox as I have all year. A brutal series to watch. We've had multiple opportunities the past two weeks to win games and make this series with Detroit far more unimportant.

As for the Youkilis situation, I give Nel credit for having the balls to raise it -- I said the same thing when I saw he was not in the line-up yesterday. Do I condemn Youk for not rushing back for Sunday's game? Nope. Was I surprised to see he wasn't back? Very.

fram40
09-10-2012, 12:25 PM
Before we condemn Youk - I beleive we need to remember the 2005 playoff run. IIRC - Mrs Konerko had a baby one/two days after ALCS. Had the timing worked out differently, Paul would have missed a few games of either the ALCS or the WS - at the urging/approval of both team management and his teammates.

Times have changed since Little Nell's children were born. Fathers are now intimately involved with childbirth - they help out in the delivery room and the first couple of days after.

For better or worse - that's how it is. No matter what is going on at the job and no matter how important it is.

Congrats to the Youk family.

guillensdisciple
09-10-2012, 12:27 PM
All I was doing was responding to the post indicating that Beckham at bat is a sure out. I was pointing out that he's been pretty decent offensively for the last month; I wasn't making any claims that he's been permanently "fixed." A manager should be looking at what a player is doing right now, not what he was doing two months ago, or last year, in deciding whether to risk letting him bat in a given situation.

On the other topic, I knew full well that the younger posters would get all incensed because I think a new father should go back to work. You guys are used to the idea of being paid for more and more days off. Yes, forty years ago your employer, almost without exception, expected you back at work as soon as possible. If your wife was having complications like those listed in one post above, sure, they'd understand. But normal, healthy childbirth? Once you had a chance to get 8 hours of sleep, get back to work. And our children and families managed to survive it. In fact, the divorce rate was a lot lower then than it is now. :geezer:

Ye I'm more worried about the 50 percent divorce rate now a days. That's ****ing crazy, and I would like to know where all of this started shifting to such high divorce numbers. I'm not saying that people shouldn't divorce, but damn, 50 percent?

What's the point of getting married then?

TDog
09-10-2012, 12:36 PM
Except Bacon hit an off-speed pitch for the double. Holland blew 98 mph fastballs past him on the first two pitches. Knowing Gordon was over-matched if he got another, I told my friend that the only chance he had was an off-speed pitch. And Holland served it up - 89 mph according to the rightfield speed gun. I was shocked - yet happy to see it's not just Sox who make ridiculous pitch selections.

I also agree with JB. I liked Rios' chance in the 9th and I really liked ADA in the 10th. They failed - it happens in baseball about 70% of the time when hitting. Maybe less given they did not need a base hit in either situation. But both provided the worst possible outcomes - a GIDP by Rios and K by ADA. Sac Fly , high hopper, almost anything else wins or ties the game. And I really thought both were gonna come through. I knew Olmedo was a gone goose as soon as he walked up. He had no chance whatsoever.

Let's win Game #1 and put some real pressure on the Tigers. I suspect they won't handle the pressure very well.

Let's go Quintana!

Of course, it's irrelevant if the pitcher threw an off-speed pitch to Beckham for the double Sunday. Sunday's pitcher had basically the same arsenal as the Friday pitcher, although the Sunday pitcher was considered the more reliable, closing pitcher. Both were working from the same scouting report. The Friday pitcher, who was the same pitcher who induced a double play out of Rios with the bases loaded in the ninth Sunday. He pitched out of two runner-on-third-with-less-than-two-out-game-on-the-line jams this weekend. And if I would pick anyone on the Sox to hit with the game on the line, it would probably be Rios (maybe Ramirez, depending on the pitching matchup, but he got a two-strike hit with a runner in scoring position and the score tied in the ninth to load the bases for Rios).

Even if you could have brought Dunn off the bench, Bekcham this season has been more likely than Dunn to get hits with runners in scoring position and put the ball in play against power pitchers. Dan Johnson is simply an unknown commodity to Sox fans, so he must be better than Beckham.

The problem wasn't Ventura's managing. The problem with runners getting thrown out at the bases wasn't really the coaching. The Royals made the plays. One of the reasons they have so many losses this year is that they have made more than their share of mistakes in the field (as well as on the bases, see the pickoff in the game after the All Star Break). You don't don't see many games where teams have three close outfield assists that don't involve a cutoff man, even if the first depended on the catcher blocking the plate.

Friday's loss was due in large part to a bad performance by the starting pitcher, who was bailed out by the offense. But in the end, the White Sox were outplayed Friday and Sunday, not outmanaged.

Still, the fact that the Sox came back in the ninth and were in a position to win the game (perhaps challenging the Royals to go 4-for-4 on throws from the outfield) with a De Aza hit indicates that this team didn't give up Sunday.

And it's September 10, and the White Sox are in first place by 2 games over the team that (and I am reminded of this every time I turn on the MLB channel) was supposed to run away with the AL Central. Keep some perspective going into the biggest week of White Sox baseball probably in four years. I loved 1972. It was one of my favorite teams. But after September 9 that year, they had slipped to 2.5 games behind the A's and would never get any closer. If you want to go back 35 years, the celebrated 1977 White Sox were already 7 games behind the Royals fter Steve Stone beat the Angels on September 9.

LITTLE NELL
09-10-2012, 12:39 PM
A lot of people think I'm a terrible person for going to work on the day my wife gave birth. Here is the deal, that was 1969 and things have changed. Second point is that I was a Motion Picture Projectionist and it was a Sunday and the Union office was closed so I could not find a replacement, I had to be at work or else management and 1500 movie goers would have been very agitated. Monday morning came around and I visited the wife at Evanston Hospital and went to work again, Tuesday morning I brought her home and since she was a grad from Loyola School of Nursing, she took charge of the baby, I never even changed a diaper.

kittle42
09-10-2012, 12:43 PM
A lot of people think I'm a terrible person for going to work on the day my wife gave birth.

I hope they don't. Times are different. The point is that if Youkilis gets three days, he should be able to use them like any other employee in America who gets such benefits.

jdm2662
09-10-2012, 12:46 PM
.

On the other topic, I knew full well that the younger posters would get all incensed because I think a new father should go back to work. You guys are used to the idea of being paid for more and more days off. Yes, forty years ago your employer, almost without exception, expected you back at work as soon as possible. If your wife was having complications like those listed in one post above, sure, they'd understand. But normal, healthy childbirth? Once you had a chance to get 8 hours of sleep, get back to work. And our children and families managed to survive it. In fact, the divorce rate was a lot lower then than it is now. :geezer:

You also forgot to mention that 40 years ago, you could get a job out of high school and support yourself and your wife could still stay home and take care of the kids. You also got raises every year (at least according to both my of parents), and were able to stay at the same job for decades. Can't do that today if you expect to live in a decent neighboorhood and house, unless you have are from a family that has lots of money.

The reason you get more time off these days is because it's cheaper than to give raises. It's also much more expensive to provide insurance and other benefits. Sure, I get plenty of time off, but I barely make entry level money, and I have a masters degree and over ten years of work experience. I'm not complaining about it. It's just how it is. You just take advantage of life allows you to do.

As for divorce rate, well, more women work these days. Lots of them don't need husbands to support them. They also don't necessilary stick with a husband that's abusive or any other factors. At least, not like they used to. Also, times and lives change when you first get married. People don't stick together if they are miserable. It's just how life is today. If there is no hope of being happy, you move on.

As for the Sox, well let's win tonight for baby JDM.

DonnieDarko
09-10-2012, 01:03 PM
Second point is that I was a Motion Picture Projectionist and it was a Sunday and the Union office was closed so I could not find a replacement, I had to be at work or else management and 1500 movie goers would have been very agitated. Monday morning came around and I visited the wife at Evanston Hospital and went to work again, Tuesday morning I brought her home and since she was a grad from Loyola School of Nursing, she took charge of the baby, I never even changed a diaper.

All right then, I retract my previous comments.

jdm2662
09-10-2012, 01:08 PM
A lot of people think I'm a terrible person for going to work on the day my wife gave birth. .

I do not think that all. I fully understand times were different. I get that. The thing is, I've noticed the older generation doesn't seem to understand times are different. I'm heavily involved in taking care of my son. I feed him, change him, etc. But, my wife also works full time, and I'm not going to make her do everything. All my friends are in the same boat, and do so much for their kids.

Now, my father cooked and did his share of house work, etc. but his mother died when he was 13. He had to take care of himself and learned the hard way.

My sister in law, who is in her mid-40s is amazed I do so much around the house. Well, she doesn't work, or works very little. Her husband works 6 days a week, sometimes up to 70-80 hours. I don't work those hours, and I'm not going to make my wife do everything when she works jsut as much if not more than me.

Let's not talk about my father in law. He can't even use the toaster, and makes his girlfriend butter his bread...

LITTLE NELL
09-10-2012, 01:11 PM
I do not think that all. I fully understand times were different. I get that. The thing is, I've noticed the older generation doesn't seem to understand times are different. I'm heavily involved in taking care of my son. I feed him, change him, etc. But, my wife also works full time, and I'm not going to make her do everything. All my friends are in the same boat, and do so much for their kids.

Now, my father cooked and did his share of house work, etc. but his mother died when he was 13. He had to take care of himself and learned the hard way.

My sister in law, who is in her mid-40s is amazed I do so much around the house. Well, she doesn't work, or works very little. Her husband works 6 days a week, sometimes up to 70-80 hours. I don't work those hours, and I'm not going to make my wife do everything when she works jsut as much if not more than me.

Let's not talk about my father in law. He can't even use the toaster, and makes his girlfriend butter his bread...

Now that's a real mensch.:tongue:

JB98
09-10-2012, 01:14 PM
Did I seriously read people are actually suggesting Robin has quit on the team? Seriously? Where do you come up with this? His in-game management decisions has NOTHING to do with quitting on the team. A rookie manager is going to make mistakes. It's ok to point these out. But quitting on the team? Give me a break.

The person who posted that is/was one of Ozzie Guillen's biggest defenders. The poster is apparently still reeling because many of us believe Guillen quit on the 2011 Sox and have shared that opinion on these boards.

I think we can all agree Robin Ventura has made a couple rookie mistakes as a manager recently. Obviously, nobody is quitting -- at least among uniformed personnel. Maybe a few fans are quitting, but certainly not the manager, the coaches or the players. Any poster who suggests that is pushing a personal agenda.

Hitmen77
09-10-2012, 01:14 PM
Question: when was the last time the Sox used different uniform colors for all 3 games of a series?

I'm not talking about times when they wore alternate blacks vs. the home pinstripes or away grays. This KC series saw the Sox use pretty much their main home uniform design except one night was green, the 2nd was black, and the 3rd was red.

slavko
09-10-2012, 01:19 PM
Ye I'm more worried about the 50 percent divorce rate now a days. That's ****ing crazy, and I would like to know where all of this started shifting to such high divorce numbers. I'm not saying that people shouldn't divorce, but damn, 50 percent?

What's the point of getting married then?

Societal changes. More freedom and less freedom. More religion and less religion. And all at the same time. The only constant is people saying that things were better before. That never changes.

TheOldRoman
09-10-2012, 01:23 PM
I do not think that all. I fully understand times were different. I get that. The thing is, I've noticed the older generation doesn't seem to understand times are different. I'm heavily involved in taking care of my son. I feed him, change him, etc. But, my wife also works full time, and I'm not going to make her do everything. All my friends are in the same boat, and do so much for their kids.

Now, my father cooked and did his share of house work, etc. but his mother died when he was 13. He had to take care of himself and learned the hard way.

My sister in law, who is in her mid-40s is amazed I do so much around the house. Well, she doesn't work, or works very little. Her husband works 6 days a week, sometimes up to 70-80 hours. I don't work those hours, and I'm not going to make my wife do everything when she works jsut as much if not more than me.

Let's not talk about my father in law. He can't even use the toaster, and makes his girlfriend butter his bread...I agree with what you are saying. I fall in the same boat as you (although we don't have children yet). However, the situation is completely different for someone making $12 million a year as Youkilis does. I mean, it's not like Youkilis has to stay home to do laundry because his wife has to get back to work or risk being fired and having the family starve.

I'm not going to criticize him because I don't know the details about his wife's and the baby's health. However, athletes make much more money than any of us here and have different sets of expectations. Most of us wouldn't have problems taking a weekend off to take the family to Michigan in the fall or takings a day off to be with our son on his birthday, but athletes don't have that luxury. As part of the exorbitant salaries, you are expected to be there every day during the season. Things are obviously different with them being given paternity leave. My point is, you can't really relate their situations to ours.

Paulwny
09-10-2012, 01:33 PM
I agree with what you are saying. I fall in the same boat as you (although we don't have children yet). However, the situation is completely different for someone making $12 million a year as Youkilis does. I mean, it's not like Youkilis has to stay home to do laundry because his wife has to get back to work or risk being fired and having the family starve.

I'm not going to criticize him because I don't know the details about his wife's and the baby's health. However, athletes make much more money than any of us here and have different sets of expectations. Most of us wouldn't have problems taking a weekend off to take the family to Michigan in the fall or takings a day off to be with our son on his birthday, but athletes don't have that luxury. As part of the exorbitant salaries, you are expected to be there every day during the season. Things are obviously different with them being given paternity leave. My point is, you can't really relate their situations to ours.


Another thought, with the amount of money earned by players, usually a player who has been around for awhile, never needs to work again and has plenty of time to be with his family.

SOXSINCE'70
09-10-2012, 01:35 PM
I would rather have Ray Charles bat in that situation over Ray Olmedo...

I'd rather have Ray Rayner,Ray Price or "you can call me Ray" from the old Miller Lite commercials.NO TEAL INTENDED.:(:

For not running out the bunt in the 10th,Rey Olmedo is the 2012 Jose Paniagua to me.:angry: Paniagua,you may remember,entered a game against the Twinks in 2003 here at home.The Sox had an 8-2 lead,IIRC.He promptly gave up 5 runs.The Sox survived to win 8-7,but after the Game,KW literally told him to clean out his locker and not bother coming back.I would say the same to Olmedo,if I could.

WisSoxFan
09-10-2012, 01:40 PM
I'd rather have Ray Rayner,Ray Price or "you can call me Ray" from the old Miller Lite commercials.NO TEAL INTENDED.:(:

For not running out the bunt in the 10th,Rey Olmedo is the 2012 Jose Paniagua to me.:angry: Paniagua,you may remember,entered a game against the Twinks in 2003 here at home.The Sox had an 8-2 lead,IIRC.He promptly gave up 5 runs.The Sox survived to win 8-7,but after the Game,KW literally told him to clean out his locker and not bother coming back.I would say the same to Olmedo,if I could.

I went to retrosheet and looked up that game. According to retrosheet Paniagua gave up four runs on three hits and a walk in 1/3 of an inning (the final score was 8-6). In the play by play it says "White Sox Jose
Paniagua ejected by HP umpire Mark Carlson; Paniagua made an
obscene gesture as he left the field and was released by the
White Sox next day."

I don't recall that game or that ending for some reason.

Hitmen77
09-10-2012, 01:41 PM
On the other topic, I knew full well that the younger posters would get all incensed because I think a new father should go back to work. You guys are used to the idea of being paid for more and more days off. Yes, forty years ago your employer, almost without exception, expected you back at work as soon as possible. If your wife was having complications like those listed in one post above, sure, they'd understand. But normal, healthy childbirth? Once you had a chance to get 8 hours of sleep, get back to work. And our children and families managed to survive it. In fact, the divorce rate was a lot lower then than it is now. :geezer:

Times are different. I think it's great that more and more fathers today have the option to take time off after the birth of a child. Some dads, of course, still don't have that choice and that doesn't make them bad parents. Others have the option to take time off and choose not to. IMO, that's between him and his wife and it's not my place to say whether they are "right" or "wrong". I don't think today's divorce rate justifies not giving dads the option for taking paternity leave.

I will also argue that taking paternity leave for many guys isn't simply getting "more and more days off". Obviously every company has a different policy, but when I took paternity time off it was by using vacation time that everyone at my office gets. It wasn't extra paid days off.

As far as Youk's situation goes, my first reaction is that he's getting paid something like $10M a year in a high profile position. He's getting pay that'll likely set his family for life - and maybe having less paternity flexibility (especially when the season might be on the line) should be the price for that bonanza. So, in that regard it makes me less sympathetic to his taking the full time off. But, what do we know about his situation? For all I know, he's still fighting nagging injuries and he and the team thought they might want him to sit a few games anyway. Maybe he has some other personal reason to be gone 3 days. Yeah, it would have been nice to have his bat available to pinch hit late yesterday instead of Olmedo's automatic out. As a Sox fan, I'm pretty miffed about that. But, without being a fly on the wall, I can't pass judgement on him for this.

Nellie_Fox
09-10-2012, 02:01 PM
Societal changes. More freedom and less freedom. More religion and less religion. And all at the same time. The only constant is people saying that things were better before. That never changes.An untrue generalization. A lot of the changes that have happened in my lifetime are for the better. Just not all of them, and we probably won't agree which are which.

tstrike2000
09-10-2012, 02:03 PM
A lot of people think I'm a terrible person for going to work on the day my wife gave birth. Here is the deal, that was 1969 and things have changed. Second point is that I was a Motion Picture Projectionist and it was a Sunday and the Union office was closed so I could not find a replacement, I had to be at work or else management and 1500 movie goers would have been very agitated. Monday morning came around and I visited the wife at Evanston Hospital and went to work again, Tuesday morning I brought her home and since she was a grad from Loyola School of Nursing, she took charge of the baby, I never even changed a diaper.

We've read you mention your family many times. You sound like a great dad and were a father to your kids went it really mattered, every day since their birth.

SI1020
09-10-2012, 02:05 PM
*points up at his last post* Didn't see it. Must have posted at about the same time. I'll remove mine.

Chez
09-10-2012, 02:10 PM
I went to retrosheet and looked up that game. According to retrosheet Paniagua gave up four runs on three hits and a walk in 1/3 of an inning (the final score was 8-6). In the play by play it says "White Sox Jose
Paniagua ejected by HP umpire Mark Carlson; Paniagua made an
obscene gesture as he left the field and was released by the
White Sox next day."

I don't recall that game or that ending for some reason.

I was there. Paniagua flipped off the ump and the fans who were booing him as he walked to the dugout. That's why he was released -- not for crappy pitching.

Lip Man 1
09-10-2012, 02:14 PM
After the incident Kenny personally apologized to the umpire and then immediately cut him.

Lip

jdm2662
09-10-2012, 03:13 PM
I agree with what you are saying. I fall in the same boat as you (although we don't have children yet). However, the situation is completely different for someone making $12 million a year as Youkilis does. I mean, it's not like Youkilis has to stay home to do laundry because his wife has to get back to work or risk being fired and having the family starve.

I'm not going to criticize him because I don't know the details about his wife's and the baby's health. However, athletes make much more money than any of us here and have different sets of expectations. Most of us wouldn't have problems taking a weekend off to take the family to Michigan in the fall or takings a day off to be with our son on his birthday, but athletes don't have that luxury. As part of the exorbitant salaries, you are expected to be there every day during the season. Things are obviously different with them being given paternity leave. My point is, you can't really relate their situations to ours.

While these are multi-millionares, we forget that they are human beings, too. While many professional athletes are jack asses, there are still some that are real and care about family and other people. If Youk wanted to take the full time he is entitled to to see his kid, I have no issue with it. With his injuries, the time off was probably good for him anyway.

Noneck
09-10-2012, 03:22 PM
Nellie The Prof and Little Nell both explained this matter very well and my views from the prehistoric age are the same as both of you.

mahagga73
09-10-2012, 03:40 PM
Some team will win the Central by default.
Royals are only 12.5 out. If they would have started playing at the beginning of the year they would be in this thing.

DSpivack
09-10-2012, 03:44 PM
Royals are only 12.5 out. If they would have started playing at the beginning of the year they would be in this thing.

While certainly they started slow with that 12-game losing streak and 6-15 record in April, they also went 7-19 in July.

mahagga73
09-10-2012, 03:47 PM
While certainly they started slow with that 12-game losing streak and 6-15 record in April, they also went 7-19 in July.
still if they win anything close to half those games , without July, they are only about 4 or 5 games out. Just a random thought . If the division was based on who looks like they actually care about winning the Royals would get my vote. Going to Indians game on monday 24th , crappy team, but I got a feeling that game will be huge the way things have gone. I'm jealous of you who can go this tigers series, I really want to, but couldn't swing it with work.

PalehosePlanet
09-10-2012, 03:48 PM
Royals are only 12.5 out. If they would have started playing at the beginning of the year they would be in this thing.

Next spring, for the umpteenth year in a row, they'll be the "dark horse" in pre-season publications, but will finish 71-91.

PalehosePlanet
09-10-2012, 03:51 PM
still if they win anything close to half those games , without July, they are only about 4 or 5 games out. Just a random thought . If the division was based on who looks like they actually care about winning the Royals would get my vote.

They're playing free and easy with zero pressure on them. They look better at the end of every year than they do at the beginning. More of the same next year.

mahagga73
09-10-2012, 03:51 PM
Next spring, for the umpteenth year in a row, they'll be the "dark horse" in pre-season publications, but will finish 71-91.
I agree . It's pretty easy to play ball with no pressure. I remember the Sox were 88-73 a couple years ago because of a late season meaningless run and it seemed like they sucked that year.

LITTLE NELL
09-10-2012, 03:53 PM
We've read you mention your family many times. You sound like a great dad and were a father to your kids went it really mattered, every day since their birth.

I thank you and appreciate your post. One of the great joys in my life was taking my son to Comiskey Park and the Old Madhouse on Madison, the thing is that he never took this White Sox stuff as seriously as me and because of that will have a longer life span than I will.

TheOldRoman
09-10-2012, 04:03 PM
I agree . It's pretty easy to play ball with no pressure. I remember the Sox were 88-73 a couple years ago because of a late season meaningless run and it seemed like they sucked that year.If you are talking about 2010, you might want to check your math. They were in first place for a good portion of that year. They went on their tear in June to get into first place, and they were in the race until a mid-September home sweep by the Twins. They were bad for the first two months of the season, but it wasn't like they went 25-3 in September.

mahagga73
09-10-2012, 04:20 PM
If you are talking about 2010, you might want to check your math. They were in first place for a good portion of that year. They went on their tear in June to get into first place, and they were in the race until a mid-September home sweep by the Twins. They were bad for the first two months of the season, but it wasn't like they went 25-3 in September.
Yeah common theme is in the race till they played so and so team and got swept. Seems like a common theme most every year. They were good for about a month and a half that year, and the rest the year was the mediocrity we have become accustomed too. A hot streak in the middle of the season does not make a good year . My point is they were close to or about .500 at the last month and ended up winning a whole bunch of games with the callups at the end thus showing an overinflated 88-73 record.

SI1020
09-10-2012, 04:25 PM
My wife gave birth to our son at 6:30 AM, I was on the job at 1PM that same day which was my normal starting time. You should never have been criticized for this. One thing I really dislike about today's world is the tendency for some to make all sorts of social and moral judgements of people or events that preceded them based on the standards of today. I'm not talking conduct or institutions that would be egregious in any time frame, but something like the example you give here. It was a different world then and that is what men were expected to do. You have never come across as mean or crass or selfish and that should be obvious to anyone who reads and posts here regularly.

TheOldRoman
09-10-2012, 04:30 PM
Yeah common theme is in the race till they played so and so team and got swept. Seems like a common theme most every year. They were good for about a month and a half that year, and the rest the year was the mediocrity we have become accustomed too. A hot streak in the middle of the season does not make a good year . My point is they were close to or about .500 at the last month and ended up winning a whole bunch of games with the callups at the end thus showing an overinflated 88-73 record.They were 30-29 over their last 59 games. After losing 8 in a row, they won 9 of their last 11 games. Besides, often times good teams tread water for most of the year and have one month where they catch fire. I mean, the Sox had the stretch earlier in the year where they went 27-3. If they would have been a measly .500 team for the rest of the season, they would have won 93 games.

LITTLE NELL
09-10-2012, 04:33 PM
You should never have been criticized for this. One thing I really dislike about today's world is the tendency for some to make all sorts of social and moral judgements of people or events that preceded them based on the standards of today. I'm not talking conduct or institutions that would be egregious in any time frame, but something like the example you give here. It was a different world then and that is what men were expected to do. You have never come across as mean or crass or selfish and that should be obvious to anyone who reads and posts here regularly.

Thanks SI.

kittle42
09-10-2012, 04:36 PM
You should never have been criticized for this. One thing I really dislike about today's world is the tendency for some to make all sorts of social and moral judgements of people or events that preceded them based on the standards of today. I'm not talking conduct or institutions that would be egregious in any time frame, but something like the example you give here. It was a different world then and that is what men were expected to do. You have never come across as mean or crass or selfish and that should be obvious to anyone who reads and posts here regularly.

Right - if your boss expected you back at work then, you had to go back to work. I'm not judging anyone for their choices on that in 1969. No one is saying, "In 1969, you should have told your boss to shove it. How cruel of you!" We're saying it's 2012 and times have changed to reflect that men deserve some paternity leave, as well. Youkilis, or any guy, shouldn't be ripped for taking what is provided by an employer, regardless of profession.

TDog
09-10-2012, 04:40 PM
Some team will win the Central by default.

It might feel that way. Still, the Yankees won the wold Series in 2000 after losing 13 of their last 15 games, and the Cardinals beat the Tigers in the World Series in 2006 despite limping at the end to an 83-win regular season.

It isn't like it will come down to the Yankees and Red Sox because they spent the most money in the off-season. The competition in the American League this year is as strong as I've ever seen it.

doublem23
09-10-2012, 04:41 PM
Right - if your boss expected you back at work then, you had to go back to work. I'm not judging anyone for their choices on that in 1969. No one is saying, "In 1969, you should have told your boss to shove it. How cruel of you!" We're saying it's 2012 and times have changed to reflect that men deserve some paternity leave, as well. Youkilis, or any guy, shouldn't be ripped for taking what is provided by an employer, regardless of profession.

Yeah it kind of feels like a double standard if we're not allowed to judge people in the 60s by 2010's standards, how you can go around and judge a guy in the 2010's by 1960's standards. Different strokes for different folks.

jdm2662
09-10-2012, 04:46 PM
You should never have been criticized for this. One thing I really dislike about today's world is the tendency for some to make all sorts of social and moral judgements of people or events that preceded them based on the standards of today. I'm not talking conduct or institutions that would be egregious in any time frame, but something like the example you give here. It was a different world then and that is what men were expected to do. You have never come across as mean or crass or selfish and that should be obvious to anyone who reads and posts here regularly.

It works both ways. People from "back in the day" frown upon on how things are today. I have two teenage nieces and plenty of cousins around the same age. I don't tell them about what I did when I was there age. Why? Because they don't care. Things are the way they are today, and that's that. Just have to adapt and live however you can.

I do not condem Nell at all for what he had to do. He had to make a living and that's how things were at the time. I was lucky to have enough sick time saved up to take a couple of weeks off. If I didn't have it, I would've taken a couple of days unpaid and back to work I would've went. But, everyone else got to take time off, so I was going to as well.

SI1020
09-10-2012, 06:52 PM
FWIW I did not and won't rip Youkilis for taking time off to be with his wife and child.

DickAllen72
09-10-2012, 06:55 PM
So, How about those Sox? :cool:

SI1020
09-10-2012, 07:21 PM
It works both ways. People from "back in the day" frown upon on how things are today. I have two teenage nieces and plenty of cousins around the same age. I don't tell them about what I did when I was there age. Why? Because they don't care. Things are the way they are today, and that's that. Just have to adapt and live however you can.

I do not condem Nell at all for what he had to do. He had to make a living and that's how things were at the time. I was lucky to have enough sick time saved up to take a couple of weeks off. If I didn't have it, I would've taken a couple of days unpaid and back to work I would've went. But, everyone else got to take time off, so I was going to as well. You make a good point and I'm sure I have been guilty of the reverse of what I was criticizing. I will say that it doesn't necessarily bother me that young people get to live differently, but the lack of curiosity of things past does. I've always been historically inclined and fully realize that in today's world I don't have a lot of company in that regard.

mahagga73
09-10-2012, 11:37 PM
It might feel that way. Still, the Yankees won the wold Series in 2000 after losing 13 of their last 15 games, and the Cardinals beat the Tigers in the World Series in 2006 despite limping at the end to an 83-win regular season.

It isn't like it will come down to the Yankees and Red Sox because they spent the most money in the off-season. The competition in the American League this year is as strong as I've ever seen it.
Yeah but there aren't any juggernauts the Sox can't handle . Rays, A's, Yankees, Rangers, they have shown they can beat all of them.