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NUKE_CLEVELAND
07-27-2002, 06:42 PM
I know Jerry Manuel likes to tinker with the lineup, but isin't the point of tinkering to find a lineup or system that works then stick with it?

ChiWhiteSox1337
07-27-2002, 06:45 PM
i guess that's the point of it but this is jerry you're talking about, you really need to make a NUKE_CLEVELAND official definition of tinker someday ;(

NUKE_CLEVELAND
07-27-2002, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by ChiWhiteSox1337
i guess that's the point of it but this is jerry you're talking about, you really need to make a NUKE_CLEVELAND official definition of tinker someday ;(

Tinker. To constantly change something, not to make it better, but just because one likes to make unnecessary changes.

Something wrong with the chat room? I can't seem to get in.

RedPinStripes
07-27-2002, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by NUKE_CLEVELAND


Tinker. To constantly change something, not to make it better, but just because one likes to make unnecessary changes.

Something wrong with the chat room? I can't seem to get in.

They don't accept your kind anymore. :D:

irish rover
07-27-2002, 11:34 PM
in the 105 games played

the great JM has had 64 different lineups

the most common lineup used 15 times

lofton
durham
thomas
maggs
pk
jose v.
lee
johnson
clayton

voodoochile
07-27-2002, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by irish rover
in the 105 games played

the great JM has had 64 different lineups

the most common lineup used 15 times

lofton
durham
thomas
maggs
pk
jose v.
lee
johnson
clayton

64? 64?!???!????!

64!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just have two questions...

1)What is the record of the above "most popular" lineup?

2)How many lineups have the Yankees used this year?

Anyone know?

Jerry_Manuel
07-28-2002, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
64? 64?!???!????!

64!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Factor in interleague play when it's a new lineup every day.

Factor in the fact that Alomar was on the DL.

Factor in the fact that Lofton was hurt but never went on the DL.

Factor in the fact that Jose never plays vs. lefties.

When you factor in all those things it's not so hard to believe.

voodoochile
07-28-2002, 04:07 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Factor in interleague play when it's a new lineup every day.

Factor in the fact that Alomar was on the DL.

Factor in the fact that Lofton was hurt but never went on the DL.

Factor in the fact that Jose never plays vs. lefties.

When you factor in all those things it's not so hard to believe.

Ahhhh... So you are saying that every other team has that many different lineups this year? Those aren't factors, because everyone faces them. Those are excuses for reasons to show off Jerry's true genius.

The question remains. The Yankees have played just as many interleague games as the Sox. They have had problems in the OF (until the acquisition of Mondesi). They have players who have problems hitting against certain pitchers, and finally, I am sure they have had their share of aches and pains, bumps and bruises and players on the DL. How many lineups have they used?

Jerry_Manuel
07-28-2002, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Ahhhh... So you are saying that every other team has that many different lineups this year? Those aren't factors, because everyone faces them. Those are excuses for reasons to show off Jerry's true genius.

The question remains. The Yankees have played just as many interleague games as the Sox. They have had problems in the OF (until the acquisition of Mondesi). They have players who have problems hitting against certain pitchers, and finally, I am sure they have had their share of aches and pains, bumps and bruises and players on the DL. How many lineups have they used?

No that's not what I'm saying. The Sox have a weird roster. They've decided that Lofton can't hit vs. lefties, they've decided that Valentin can't hit them either. How many teams have a starting catcher that can't play more then two days in a row?

I don't even know where to find number of lineups used. Maybe Irish got some bad information.

voodoochile
07-28-2002, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


No that's not what I'm saying. The Sox have a weird roster. They've decided that Lofton can't hit vs. lefties, they've decided that Valentin can't hit them either. How many teams have a starting catcher that can't play more then two days in a row?

I don't even know where to find number of lineups used. Maybe Irish got some bad information.

Not ripping on you, but I disagree. It isn't a weird roster, it is a weird manager who refuses to let his regulars play everyday.

Just curious, are you agreeing with Jerry's decisions this year to use the players the way he has? Personally, I think his constant meddling is part of what is wrong with this team...

Jerry_Manuel
07-28-2002, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Not ripping on you, but I disagree. It isn't a weird roster, it is a weird manager who refuses to let his regulars play everyday.

Just curious, are you agreeing with Jerry's decisions this year to use the players the way he has? Personally, I think his constant meddling is part of what is wrong with this team...

Alomar can't play more then two days in a row. We know he'll get hurt, so can't fault him there.

I think the constant meddling from Williams is a big factor as well. If your asking me to grade Manuel on this year, I'd give him a D.

Soxheads
07-28-2002, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


No that's not what I'm saying. The Sox have a weird roster. They've decided that Lofton can't hit vs. lefties, they've decided that Valentin can't hit them either. How many teams have a starting catcher that can't play more then two days in a row?

I don't even know where to find number of lineups used. Maybe Irish got some bad information.

Well, I posted this in an earlier thread, a few weeks ago, and i found it at CNNSI.com

Jerry_Manuel
07-28-2002, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Soxheads
Well, I posted this in an earlier thread, a few weeks ago, and i found it at CNNSI.com

Was it in a story? Were they talking about the Sox and said "oh by the way the Sox have had 612 different linueps this season", or do they actually post the stat?

Soxheads
07-28-2002, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Was it in a story? Were they talking about the Sox and said "oh by the way the Sox have had 612 different linueps this season", or do they actually post the stat?
Well, I cam't seem to find it now. I'm gonna look for it.

guillen4life13
07-28-2002, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Not ripping on you, but I disagree. It isn't a weird roster, it is a weird manager who refuses to let his regulars play everyday.

Just curious, are you agreeing with Jerry's decisions this year to use the players the way he has? Personally, I think his constant meddling is part of what is wrong with this team...

in an earlier thread, the number of yankee lineups was in fact posted.

they've used quite a few more lineups than us... the only difference is that their lineups tend to work most of the time... and also, they have players who tend to work most of the time. that's prolly why joe torre hasn't gotten any heat for it.

Soxheads
07-28-2002, 05:51 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13060

PaleHoseGeorge
07-28-2002, 06:57 PM
Look, the Sox have played 106 games. If The Tinkerer has used 64 different lineups, that means the average lineup has been used less than TWICE this entire season!

If MOST of Manuel's 64 lineups were used only ONCE, who among us is foolish enough to say those lineups should have been used at all? We're talking an average across 64 lineups, people! This is no fluke.

There is NO EXCUSE for this sort of tinkering because the players themselves become confused with such nonsense coming from their manager. Is it any wonder the Sox offense has become so streaky? Nobody knows what there job is going to be until they show up at the ballpark!

This is inexcusable, and nothing but worthless excuses could defend it.

Right, the Sox have had injuries. I guess nobody has?

Sure, the Sox played interleague games. Funny, I thought everyone else played them, too.

This is silly...

BTW, I'm willing to bet, right now, the vast majority of that #1 lineup was used back in April--when the team was playing first place baseball! Why did the Tinkerer move away from it? Could it be he is just an overmatched idiot pretending to be a big league manager?

I'm convinced. Manuel as manager is net-negative for this team.

:jerry
"Umm... tell me what you really think?"

Jerry_Manuel
07-28-2002, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
There is NO EXCUSE for this sort of tinkering because the players themselves become confused with such nonsense coming from their manager. Is it any wonder the Sox offense has become so streaky? Nobody knows what there job is going to be until they show up at the ballpark!

This is inexcusable, and nothing but worthless excuses could defend it.

Right, the Sox have had injuries. I guess nobody has?

Sure, the Sox played interleague games. Funny, I thought everyone else played them, too.

BTW, I'm willing to bet, right now, the vast majority of that #1 lineup was used back in April--when the team was playing first place baseball! Why did the Tinkerer move away from it? Could it be he is just an overmatched idiot pretending to be a big league manager?

As of July 14th the Yankees had used 72. They look to be doing just fine.

I'm not defending his moves. Some of his changes have been dumb, some have been needed. Can Alomar play more than two or three days in a row? No. Valentin has sat against lefties for quite awhile. Now if you want to fault him their for using stats to make his decisio not to play him, that's fine. You had the fake benching of Royce, and you had the "benching" of Thomas.

He's made some very poor decisions that is fact. The reason their record is crap is because the team just isn't that good. As I said before in another post I'd give him a 'D' if I had to grade him.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-28-2002, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


As of July 14th the Yankees had used 72. They look to be doing just fine.

I'm not defending his moves. Some of his changes have been dumb, some have been needed. Can Alomar play more than two or three days in a row? No. Valentin has sat against lefties for quite awhile. Now if you want to fault him their for using stats to make his decisio not to play him, that's fine. You had the fake benching of Royce, and you had the "benching" of Thomas.

He's made some very poor decisions that is fact. The reason their record is crap is because the team just isn't that good. As I said before in another post I'd give him a 'D' if I had to grade him.

First, I never made a comparison between the Sox and the Yankees. However, I did question the reasoning behind the excuse that Manuel needed to use so many lineups due to injuries.

The Yankees have used the DL not less than 13 times this year. The Sox have used it three times, twice for Alomar's knees alone. I hate to think how many lineups Manuel would use if he ever had a good reason for doing it--like injuries, as an example.

The Yankees have also made numerous changes in their roster this year. Our man Kenny has largely stayed pat with the losers he left Tucson with. I can offer plenty of reasons why the Yankees 72 aren't nearly as detrimental as Manuel's 64.

I guess we aren't arguing over anything, since we agree on the big picture: Manuel hurts this team. It's pretty clear his lineup changes have been detrimental to the team this year--same as they were last year. I guess Reinsdorf was wrong (or lying) last winter when he told the season ticketholders "we have learned our lessons."

:jerry
"I'm still the same stubborn mule I ever was."

Jerry_Manuel
07-28-2002, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I guess we aren't arguing over anything, since we agree on the big picture: Manuel hurts this team. It's pretty clear his lineup changes have been detrimental to the team this year--same as they were last year. I guess Reinsdorf was wrong (or lying) last winter when he told the season ticketholders "we have learned our lessons."


Certain changes have been detrimental to the club. I don't think Mark Johnson playing 2 or 3 times a week is killing the club. I never really understood why Valentin sits vs. lefties. True as a right-handed hitter he is poor, but why can't he hit lefty?

Where Manuel gets crazy is when he'll play Graffanino one day, if he does well he plays him again. Then Jose or whoever he benched to play Tony, gets cold for a week.

Daver
07-28-2002, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Certain changes have been detrimental to the club. I don't think Mark Johnson playing 2 or 3 times a week is killing the club. I never really understood why Valentin sits vs. lefties. True as a right-handed hitter he is poor, but why can't he hit lefty?

Where Manuel gets crazy is when he'll play Graffanino one day, if he does well he plays him again. Then Jose or whoever he benched to play Tony, gets cold for a week.

Jose refuses to hit left handed against lefties.Jerry is right in sitting him against lefty starters.

irish rover
07-28-2002, 11:53 PM
for those wondering where I got the info or if you want find out about other teams lineups, go to cbs.sportsline.com and click which ever team you want and at the bottom of the teams page they have a "lineup tracker"

sorry I'd do it myself but work has got me doing alot