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hawkjt
09-06-2012, 11:58 AM
So, is it set for this homestand yet?

Fri-Sun vs the Royals- Liriano,Sale Santiago
Mon-Thurs vs the Tigers- Quintana,Peavy,Liriano,Sale

I thought they might skip Sale or Quintana in their next turn due to arm fatigue but apparently it is full steam ahead.
It is hard not to cringe at Quintana leading off the Tiger series. That first game will be huge.
For the third straight series, the Sox will face Mendoza,Chen and Guthrie this weekend when the Royals come to town...can the Sox finally solve them? Chen got blown up with 5 homers in Texas his last start,but Guthrie is still a winning machine,even in Texas with a good start. The Royals starting rotation has been locked into place for months now,it seems,while the Sox are in total flux.
I think the Tigers will be featuring Sanchez,Fister,Scherzer,Verlander.
The Sox bats clearly need to heat up big time for the rest of this homestand....please!

amsteel
09-06-2012, 12:12 PM
Gotta find a fill-in for Quintana

TheOldRoman
09-06-2012, 12:12 PM
I really disagree with what Robin is doing here. I think Quintana needs to be skipped and Sale should be pushed back to Monday. Let Axelrod pitch against KC and give Sale seven days rest. That allows you to throw your two best pitchers against Porcello and Fister. You can't overestimate the importance of this Tigers series. If the Sox win those first two games, they at worst hold serve and Detroit has to fight to break even in the series. Besides, Thursday against Verlander is going to be tough no matter who we pitch, so we might as well might Sale in a game we have a better shot at winning.

Things might change depending on how Gavin's side session goes today. He is eligible to come off the DL on Monday. If he feels fine tomorrow and is ready to come back, I hope they do move Sale to Monday and pitch Gavin on Thursday.

beasly213
09-06-2012, 12:22 PM
Oye. I'm going to the game Monday. Reallllly hope Quinta isn't on the bump.

JB98
09-06-2012, 12:22 PM
I disagree with sending Quintana out there for the first game of the Detroit series. If he gets lit up again, you blow out the bullpen for the whole week.

Domeshot17
09-06-2012, 12:22 PM
Guys just have to step up, no matter when it is. I personally don't think Quintanna is tired, he isn't losing velocity, I think teams are hitting him hard the more they see him. He is a soft tosser that doesn't have any kind of crazy movement. Where he lives is hitting his spots, and when he over throws he misses spots, and they either end up as walks or hits.

JB98
09-06-2012, 12:29 PM
One other note -- the Sox have not named a starter for Sunday's game against Kansas City.

I would guess Santiago, but I assume they are holding off until they have more information on Floyd's status.

kufram
09-06-2012, 12:31 PM
I'm not so sure Robin doesn't have a better idea. I don't really think the answer is to start moving your rotation around to match what the opposition is throwing. For all we know Detroit will be 4 games back by the time they get here. I remember when a lot of people wanted Beckham and Viciedo sent down to "figure it out" earlier in the year. Robin kept playing them. Maybe he was right. Maybe he's right now. I'm not going to second guess whatever he does because I think Robin, as much as any player on this team, got us here. I don't see magic bullets rescuing us and I'm not actually sure we need rescuing. I'm willing to win it or lose it with the guys that got us here.

Domeshot17
09-06-2012, 12:39 PM
I'm not so sure Robin doesn't have a better idea. I don't really think the answer is to start moving your rotation around to match what the opposition is throwing. For all we know Detroit will be 4 games back by the time they get here. I remember when a lot of people wanted Beckham and Viciedo sent down to "figure it out" earlier in the year. Robin kept playing them. Maybe he was right. Maybe he's right now. I'm not going to second guess whatever he does because I think Robin, as much as any player on this team, got us here. I don't see magic bullets rescuing us and I'm not actually sure we need rescuing. I'm willing to win it or lose it with the guys that got us here.

I don't disagree that Robin knows the guys better than we do, but Gordon is hitting .234 and Tank is posting a very below average .717 OPS, not like those 2 are the best examples to hang the arguement on.

TheOldRoman
09-06-2012, 12:49 PM
Guys just have to step up, no matter when it is. I personally don't think Quintanna is tired, he isn't losing velocity, I think teams are hitting him hard the more they see him. He is a soft tosser that doesn't have any kind of crazy movement. Where he lives is hitting his spots, and when he over throws he misses spots, and they either end up as walks or hits.But he is overthrowing because he velocity is down. Teams are hitting him hard only because he is now throwing balls. Like Stone said the other night, he was walking under one batter per nine innings the entire year, now he has walked 4+ in his last four starts. He is fatigued so he is overthrowing to get up to his normal velocity. Being that he doesn't throw that hard, guys can really crush him if he gets behind in the count, and that is exactly what has been happening. They really need to set the tone by winning game one against Detroit, and I think throwing Quintana in that game is not a good way to do so.

TheOldRoman
09-06-2012, 12:50 PM
One other note -- the Sox have not named a starter for Sunday's game against Kansas City.

I would guess Santiago, but I assume they are holding off until they have more information on Floyd's status.He's not eligible to come off the DL until Monday.

hawkjt
09-06-2012, 01:12 PM
I really disagree with what Robin is doing here. I think Quintana needs to be skipped and Sale should be pushed back to Monday. Let Axelrod pitch against KC and give Sale seven days rest. That allows you to throw your two best pitchers against Porcello and Fister. You can't overestimate the importance of this Tigers series. If the Sox win those first two games, they at worst hold serve and Detroit has to fight to break even in the series. Besides, Thursday against Verlander is going to be tough no matter who we pitch, so we might as well might Sale in a game we have a better shot at winning.

Things might change depending on how Gavin's side session goes today. He is eligible to come off the DL on Monday. If he feels fine tomorrow and is ready to come back, I hope they do move Sale to Monday and pitch Gavin on Thursday.


My own opinion mirrors this.
I would go with Liriano,Axelrod,and Santiago this weekend vs KC.
Then go with Sale,Peavy,Liriano, and possibly Floyd,or Quintana on Thursday vs Verlander. Monday and Tuesday are the best bets for getting to the Tigers starters. Having Sale and Peavy going those nites gives the Sox a chance to have a great series. Then hope that Liriano has a great start and that the Sox can scrap out a couple of runs vs the dominant Scherzer. Then, roll the dice on Thursday vs Verlander with Q or Floyd...if the Sox have won the first 3, they can afford to take the almost inevitable loss to Verlander,and still survive with a probable lead.

Give Sale and Q a fighting chance by resting them a full week each.

palehosepub
09-06-2012, 01:22 PM
I really think Q would benefit from missing a start and we should insert Axelrod or Santiago. Q looks tired and frustrated -he has lost his command that was so good early in the season.

I know this isn't football but the Sox need to come up with a better "game plan" especially against a mediocre pitcher like Chen. Sox hitters seem to be too agressive and play to Chens hand Maybe the Sox need to take more pitches, work the count more. Throw in a few bunts.How is everyone else getting to him? Do our scouts have any new input? - it's more than an aberration.

We should also be bunting against Cabera and the Tigers next week, for hits and sacrifices. Definitely Alexi, Beckham and De Aza.

doublem23
09-06-2012, 01:23 PM
FWIW, I don't think any of this is official yet, the Sox's official site only has 2 probable pitchers confirmed so far, Liriano tomorrow vs. Mendoza and Sale Saturday vs. Chen.

kittle42
09-06-2012, 01:23 PM
Guys just have to step up, no matter when it is. I personally don't think Quintanna is tired, he isn't losing velocity, I think teams are hitting him hard the more they see him. He is a soft tosser that doesn't have any kind of crazy movement. Where he lives is hitting his spots, and when he over throws he misses spots, and they either end up as walks or hits.

Which is not the result of having been seen by the league, but of getting tired.

FielderJones
09-06-2012, 01:23 PM
As of right now, the Sox site is showing TBA for the Sunday and Monday pitchers. I sure hope Monday is not Quintana.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/probable_pitchers/index.jsp?c_id=cws

russ99
09-06-2012, 01:30 PM
A pennant race like this week is what you save your pitchers for.

I'd really prefer nobody being rested for KC to wait for Detroit, as pitchers are more effective when they get the ball on a regular basis. Sure there's been a need to rework more than usual due to injuries, ineffectiveness and Peavy and Sale's inning limit issues, but these are the guys we got, so they need to get it done.

Also, with the 3 junkballer stooges starting for KC, IMO they'll be tougher for us to beat than Detroit, except the Verlander game.

Can I please see some plate patience and going the other way with breaking pitches from our hitters this time? Don't want to see yet another KC sweep because we're overaggressive and trying to yank the ball out of the park every at-bat.

TheOldRoman
09-06-2012, 01:42 PM
A pennant race like this week is what you save your pitchers for.

I'd really prefer nobody being rested for KC to wait for Detroit, as pitchers are more effective when they get the ball on a regular basis. Sure there's been a need to rework more than usual due to injuries, ineffectiveness and Peavy and Sale's inning limit issues, but these are the guys we got, so they need to get it done.The Tigers series is more important than other games since each game is a two-game swing. The Sox would benefit more from Sale beating Porcello on Monday than from him beating Bruce Chen on Saturday. Besides, assuming Floyd is healthy enough to pitch, he goes on Thursday against Verlander. Floyd has traditionally done very well against the Tigers. I would rather pitch a rested Floyd than a gassed Quintana.

FielderJones
09-06-2012, 01:44 PM
Can I please see some plate patience and going the other way with breaking pitches from our hitters this time? Don't want to see yet another KC sweep because we're overaggressive and trying to yank the ball out of the park every at-bat.

I'm pretty sure the KC junkballers, especially Chen, throw a get-me-over fastball on pitch 1 to get ahead of the Sox hitters trying to "work the count". If this is established after the first few hitters, I'd like to see the opposite approach taken; swing at that middle-of-the-plate pitch because it's the best pitch you'll see in the at bat.

TaylorStSox
09-06-2012, 01:45 PM
I don't like moving the rotation around for Detroit. You can't look past KC. Every game is big. Take it one game at a time, do what we've been doing and try to win every game. I'd like to get Sale more rest, but we don't have that luxury. KC is just as important as De toilet.

kufram
09-06-2012, 02:01 PM
I don't disagree that Robin knows the guys better than we do, but Gordon is hitting .234 and Tank is posting a very below average .717 OPS, not like those 2 are the best examples to hang the arguement on.

Beckham has played possibly the best 2nd base in the league, he's recently hitting over .300 when so many others are cold, and knocking in some winning runs when we really needed it. Viciedo also hit earlier in the year, could well hit again (or is he tired?), and played better left field than anyone thought.

My point is that I don't hang my argument on 2 players... they are merely examples of this team finding a way to get to where we are as a team. Are you saying they have not contributed and don't deserve any credit? If we get to the post season it will be the whole team that got us there not just the ones with good numbers.

kufram
09-06-2012, 02:02 PM
I don't like moving the rotation around for Detroit. You can't look past KC. Every game is big. Take it one game at a time, do what we've been doing and try to win every game. I'd like to get Sale more rest, but we don't have that luxury. KC is just as important as De toilet.

Exactly.

TheOldRoman
09-06-2012, 02:07 PM
I don't like moving the rotation around for Detroit. You can't look past KC. Every game is big. Take it one game at a time, do what we've been doing and try to win every game. I'd like to get Sale more rest, but we don't have that luxury. KC is just as important as De toilet.No it's not, because the games against Detroit are a two-game swing. A win versus the Tigers means much more than one versus the Royals. Utlimately, it's whoever has the most wins, but every win versus the Tigers is TWO less games the Sox have to win against other teams.

Lip Man 1
09-06-2012, 02:13 PM
Roman:

I don't have any inside info but my guess is that Floyd won't be ready for the Tigers series. I hope I'm wrong but I just can't see it right now.

The news surrounding him in his latest injury issue has just been very quiet for some reason and I don't think that's a good sign.

Lip

Domeshot17
09-06-2012, 03:21 PM
Beckham has played possibly the best 2nd base in the league, he's recently hitting over .300 when so many others are cold, and knocking in some winning runs when we really needed it. Viciedo also hit earlier in the year, could well hit again (or is he tired?), and played better left field than anyone thought.

My point is that I don't hang my argument on 2 players... they are merely examples of this team finding a way to get to where we are as a team. Are you saying they have not contributed and don't deserve any credit? If we get to the post season it will be the whole team that got us there not just the ones with good numbers.

They have had contributions, but Gordon especially has always been a plus defender. My point was simply to say people wanted him sent down and they are foolish because of it, well his bat has not improved much at all. He had a good run a few months ago, but he has still had a pitiful season offensively.

I love Gordon's glove, he is tremendous at 2b defensively, but he is tough to watch at the plate. I just don't think he will ever be what people want him to be. Leave him in the 9 hole and take what you get and that could be fine, but we are pretty below average to average offensively at all 4 IF positions.

JB98
09-06-2012, 07:55 PM
He's not eligible to come off the DL until Monday.

Right, but they could conceivably throw Quintana on regular rest Sunday if Floyd were available to start a game during the Detroit series.

TheOldRoman
09-06-2012, 09:13 PM
Right, but they could conceivably throw Quintana on regular rest Sunday if Floyd were available to start a game during the Detroit series.Gotcha. And really, if they are dead set against moving Sale back to Monday, I would rather have Floyd pitch than Quintana, assuming he's healthy.

shingo10
09-06-2012, 09:21 PM
I don't like moving the rotation around for Detroit. You can't look past KC. Every game is big. Take it one game at a time, do what we've been doing and try to win every game. I'd like to get Sale more rest, but we don't have that luxury. KC is just as important as De toilet.


Spot on.

RowanDye
09-06-2012, 09:34 PM
They have had contributions, but Gordon especially has always been a plus defender. My point was simply to say people wanted him sent down and they are foolish because of it, well his bat has not improved much at all. He had a good run a few months ago, but he has still had a pitiful season offensively.

I love Gordon's glove, he is tremendous at 2b defensively, but he is tough to watch at the plate. I just don't think he will ever be what people want him to be. Leave him in the 9 hole and take what you get and that could be fine, but we are pretty below average to average offensively at all 4 IF positions.

That's a little too ripe. 3 out of 4 have average to above average past performance.

DSpivack
09-06-2012, 09:41 PM
That's a little too ripe. 3 out of 4 have average to above average past performance.

Alexei's OPS (and thus, OPS+) is low because he has almost never walked this season, but he also leads the AL in RsBI among shortstops. Youk has been fine with the Sox, and Paulie is as strong as ever. Beckham is the only real problem amongst our infielders, to me.

mzh
09-06-2012, 09:55 PM
Alexei's OPS (and thus, OPS+) is low because he has almost never walked this season, but he also leads the AL in RsBI among shortstops. Youk has been fine with the Sox, and Paulie is as strong as ever. Beckham is the only real problem amongst our infielders, to me.
What interests me about Beckham is that as bad and frustrating as he's been offensively, there's a solid chance he ends up with somewhere between 60-65 RBI, which is really not terrible at all for a 9 hitter. To put it in perspective, I think Detroit would take Beckham off our hands 8 days a week if given the opportunity.

doublem23
09-06-2012, 10:42 PM
Alexei's OPS (and thus, OPS+) is low because he has almost never walked this season, but he also leads the AL in RsBI among shortstops. Youk has been fine with the Sox, and Paulie is as strong as ever. Beckham is the only real problem amongst our infielders, to me.

Beckham's not even that bad compared to AL 2B. He's not great, but his slash line is actually closer to the league average than you'd think, and if you put any stock in OPS, there are 3 playoff contenders; Oakland, Baltimore, and Detroit, getting less offensive production from 2B than the Sox are.

DSpivack
09-06-2012, 10:47 PM
Beckham's not even that bad compared to AL 2B. He's not great, but his slash line is actually closer to the league average than you'd think, and if you put any stock in OPS, there are 3 playoff contenders; Oakland, Baltimore, and Detroit, getting less offensive production from 2B than the Sox are.

74 OPS+, -0.2 WAR, he's been pretty bad.

doublem23
09-06-2012, 11:00 PM
74 OPS+, -0.2 WAR, he's been pretty bad.

League average 2B OPS+ is only 87 and his oWAR is actually positive (I don't really like WAR that takes into account fielding since that's so hard to quantify).

Again, I'm not saying he's been good, it's just that most 2B aren't much with the bat. But at least he brings A++ defense to the table.

mzh
09-06-2012, 11:00 PM
74 OPS+, -0.2 WAR, he's been pretty bad.
Question: is OPS+ adjusted for league average of all hitters, or just second basemen in this case?

doublem23
09-06-2012, 11:01 PM
Question: is OPS+ adjusted for league average of all hitters, or just second basemen in this case?

It is adjusted for all hitters in the league, plus the ballpark the player plays in.

DSpivack
09-06-2012, 11:03 PM
League average 2B OPS+ is only 87 and his oWAR is actually positive (I don't really like WAR that takes into account fielding since that's so hard to quantify).

Again, I'm not saying he's been good, it's just that most 2B aren't much with the bat. But at least he brings A++ defense to the table.

That's true.

Huisj
09-07-2012, 10:49 AM
Which is not the result of having been seen by the league, but of getting tired.

My guess is that it's a twofold effect. According to Fangraphs, his velocity has been creeping up recently: http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfxo.aspx?playerid=11423&position=P&pitch=FA

He could be tired, and that could be hurting his command, and then when he gets hit hard, frustration leads to overthrowing and having even worse command. Who knows.

SOXSINCE'70
09-07-2012, 11:09 AM
It's just that most 2B aren't much with the bat.

Unless your name is Robinson Cano.
Once again,my feeling on Beckham:

Love the glove,hate the bat.

SephClone89
09-07-2012, 11:15 AM
Once again,my feeling on Beckham:

Love the glove,hate the bat.

Unique, and controversial!

kittle42
09-07-2012, 11:17 AM
it's just that most 2B aren't much with the bat.

Unless your name is Robinson Cano.
Once again,my feeling on Beckham:

Love the glove,hate the bat.

dubs says "most 2B" aren't great hitters.

You cite the best-hitting 2B in baseball and then contrast with Beckham.

Not sure what point you are trying to make other than the one we all know is true and agree upon.

doublem23
09-07-2012, 11:50 AM
Unless your name is Robinson Cano.
Once again,my feeling on Beckham:

Love the glove,hate the bat.

Well yeah, I would love for Beckham to hit even a bit like Cano but he just doesn't. I think by now we can kind of give up on him ever being a force at the plate. The question is, is he worth the time as a light hitting 2B with tremendous defense? I would argue yes, as there seems to be little correlation between offensive production from your 2B and winning. There are good teams like the Yankees and Rangers who get a lot of production from their 2B (they are 1st and 3rd in the AL in 2B OPS respectively). There are bad teams that get a lot of offense from 2B; Boston, Cleveland, Toronto, and Seattle all get more offense from their 2B than the Sox. Then there are good teams that get less offense than the Sox have gotten from Beckham; Oakland, Baltimore, and Detroit all have a lower 2B OPS split on the season than the Sox.

bigdommer
09-07-2012, 12:20 PM
Which is not the result of having been seen by the league, but of getting tired.

Actually a lot of young pitchers tend to pitch away from contact when they start getting hit, thus affecting their command. Or he could be getting tired. Or both. Who knows? He's a guy on his 3rd organization who had never pitched above A ball before this year, so it's all uncharted waters for him.

russ99
09-07-2012, 01:57 PM
Well yeah, I would love for Beckham to hit even a bit like Cano but he just doesn't. I think by now we can kind of give up on him ever being a force at the plate. The question is, is he worth the time as a light hitting 2B with tremendous defense? I would argue yes, as there seems to be little correlation between offensive production from your 2B and winning. There are good teams like the Yankees and Rangers who get a lot of production from their 2B (they are 1st and 3rd in the AL in 2B OPS respectively). There are bad teams that get a lot of offense from 2B; Boston, Cleveland, Toronto, and Seattle all get more offense from their 2B than the Sox. Then there are good teams that get less offense than the Sox have gotten from Beckham; Oakland, Baltimore, and Detroit all have a lower 2B OPS split on the season than the Sox.

And OPS is a dumb comparison anyway, when you assume a guy with 13 homers is a worse hitter than guys with 30 homers when other metrics that aren't tilted towards power hitting put them closer together.

Slugging percentage shouldn't be part of any comparison tool, unless we're talking fantasy baseball and not the real world.

A.J. is 10th in the league in slugging (18th in ops) and there's tons better hitters than him.

doublem23
09-07-2012, 02:22 PM
Slugging percentage shouldn't be part of any comparison tool, unless we're talking fantasy baseball and not the real world.

Yeah, teams that hit homers and doubles NEVER win, ever. What we need are 9 slap hitters and a time machine to go back to the 1840s. Then we'll dominate.

If 2 players have relatively equal metrics, but one hits for 2x more home runs, guess what? The guy who hits homers is the better ****ing hitter.

bigdommer
09-07-2012, 04:30 PM
A.J. is 10th in the league in slugging (18th in ops) and there's tons better hitters than him.


Not sure if there are "tons" better than him in 2012. I have watched a lot of ball, and AJ has put the ball in play and turned a lot of his doubles into homeruns, and thus created a ton of runs. Runs are what win you REAL baseball games, and AJ is 18th in the league in runs created per out. That's better than Texiera, Jeter, Adam Jones, Adrian Gonzalez and a bunch of others that are better name hitters. The fact is that AJ had a very nice offensive year last year, but hit a lot of doubles instead of homeruns, and wouldn't you know it, he scored less runs and drove in less runs. And once again, those runs matter, hence slugging matters.

TaylorStSox
09-07-2012, 05:02 PM
League average 2B OPS+ is only 87 and his oWAR is actually positive (I don't really like WAR that takes into account fielding since that's so hard to quantify).

Again, I'm not saying he's been good, it's just that most 2B aren't much with the bat. But at least he brings A++ defense to the table.
The myth of Beckham's mythical defense.

#1swisher
09-07-2012, 06:05 PM
Scott Merkin
Detroit probs:
Mon: Porcello vs. Quintana
Tues: Fister vs. Peavy
Wed: Scherzer vs. Liriano
Thurs: Verlander vs. Sale

bigdommer
09-07-2012, 07:29 PM
The myth of Beckham's mythical defense.

That's a double myth, which makes it a truth.

hawkjt
09-14-2012, 11:56 AM
Scott Merkin
Detroit probs:
Mon: Porcello vs. Quintana
Tues: Fister vs. Peavy
Wed: Scherzer vs. Liriano
Thurs: Verlander vs. Sale


So, in the end, Floyd stepped in for Liriano,and the 4th game was postponed.

Now, as for the rotation going forward,with 20 games in 20 days...looks like this right now:

Twins-
Sale,Liriano,Peavy.

Tigers-
Quintana

KC-
Floyd,Sale,Liriano

Angels
Peavy,Quintana,Floyd

Indians-
Sale,Liriano,Peavy

Rays-
Quintana,Floyd,Sale,Liriano

Indians-
Peavy,Quintana,Floyd

Playoffs-

Sale,Peavy,Floyd.


Go Sox!!

Adjusted for the change in the rotation. Going into friday nite, we need 4 starts from all five starters. If Liriano falters, I suspect Santiago or Axelrod will slide in ....pray that Floyd and the rest stay healthy!

vinny
09-14-2012, 06:21 PM
Now, as for the rotation going forward,with 20 games in 20 days...looks like this right now:

Twins-
Sale,Quintana,Peavy.

Tigers-
Floyd


Revised this afternoon:

Updated #WhiteSox pitching rotation beginning tomorrow - Sat: Francisco Liriano; Sun: @JakePeavy_44; Mon: Jose Quintana; Tues: Gavin Floyd

kittle42
09-14-2012, 06:33 PM
Hmmph. Qunitana was great in his start v. Detroit after a sluggish start. Let's hope he can duplicate it.

hawkjt
09-15-2012, 10:24 AM
Hmmph. Qunitana was great in his start v. Detroit after a sluggish start. Let's hope he can duplicate it.


Fister was dominant vs the Sox also....need Jose to be great....lets hope he is getting his second wind. Need 4 more strong starts from him.

So looking ahead it appears that the KC series will feature:

Floyd vs Hochevar
Sale vs Mendoza
Liriano vs Chen

Sox should finally miss Guthrie,who I consider to be KC's best starter. Sox got to Chen last time,and he is not in a good groove the last couple of starts. Sale gives us a chance vs Mendoza,who continues to be tough. Hochevar blew up in his last start. Sox need to find a way to get two of these games.