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View Full Version : Strasburg's last start Sept. 12


thomas35forever
09-03-2012, 02:11 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120902&content_id=37787402&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb
No playoffs for him.

DSpivack
09-03-2012, 02:34 PM
Crazy.

getonbckthr
09-03-2012, 02:35 PM
Clearly they don't have the best interest of my fantasy team in mind...

Wedema
09-03-2012, 02:40 PM
If I was a Nationals season ticket holder, I would be pissed.

TDog
09-03-2012, 02:50 PM
The Nationals need to be punished for this decision by missing the postseaon or being eliminated in the wild-card play-in game, which is pretty much the same thing.

DSpivack
09-03-2012, 04:17 PM
The Nationals need to be punished for this decision by missing the postseaon or being eliminated in the wild-card play-in game, which is pretty much the same thing.

As they currently have a 6.5 game lead in their division and have the best record in baseball, that's pretty unlikely.

guillensdisciple
09-03-2012, 04:28 PM
As they currently have a 6.5 game lead in their division and have the best record in baseball, that's pretty unlikely.

Aren't the reds holders of the best record?

downstairs
09-03-2012, 04:57 PM
Aren't the reds holders of the best record?

Not right now, Reds are 82-54, Nats are 82-52. Close, though.

downstairs
09-03-2012, 04:58 PM
I still have no idea why they didn't manage his innings count to make it through the playoffs. He didn't have to pitch a regular amount. He could have skipped starts or pitched every 7-8 games or something.

Stupid.

mahagga73
09-03-2012, 04:59 PM
If I was a Nationals season ticket holder, I would be pissed.
I would be done forever. Silly me, I thought winning the World Series was the goal of the game. If they really wanted to do this they should have went with a 6 man rotation, stuttered his starts, or just plain worked him in the pen for awhile. This is crazy. If I was Strasburg , I would demand a trade NOW.

mahagga73
09-03-2012, 05:00 PM
The Nationals need to be punished for this decision by missing the postseaon or being eliminated in the wild-card play-in game, which is pretty much the same thing.
I am actively rooting against them in the playoffs.

Moses_Scurry
09-03-2012, 05:07 PM
I am actively rooting against them in the playoffs.

Me too. I've always rooted for the Nats mainly because I loved the Expos. However I really hope this blows up in their faces. As a White Sox fan, I know all too well how hard it is to get back to the postseason. It's almost insulting to baseball fans and to Strasburg. It would not surprise me if this little move closes the door on Strasburg signing a long term extension. He can't be happy about it.

mahagga73
09-03-2012, 06:24 PM
Me too. I've always rooted for the Nats mainly because I loved the Expos. However I really hope this blows up in their faces. As a White Sox fan, I know all too well how hard it is to get back to the postseason. It's almost insulting to baseball fans and to Strasburg. It would not surprise me if this little move closes the door on Strasburg signing a long term extension. He can't be happy about it.
Yeah the irony is that all this saving of Strasburg might be for naught if they piss him off into leaving their organization. If it was me , I would be demanding a trade asap.

DeadMoney
09-04-2012, 02:35 PM
There are quite a few things at play here, many of which are mind boggling to me, but they are...
- Scott Boras is a big part of this decision. If he wasn't pushing so hard for it, I seriously doubt Rizzo would've went through with this exact plan (and instead would've opted for some other variation allowing his best pitcher to pitch down the stretch and in the playoffs).
- Rizzo doesn't want to mess with Boras because they have a (relatively) good relationship as Boras represents Strasburg, Harper, and Werth as well as a few of their top prospects. Other GMs have even joked that Boras is "co-GM" of the Nationals.
- Boras and Strasburg both were apparently dead set on him getting starts every 5th game (on normal rest) saying that his 'routine' (even extending to what he does between starts) was more important than taking opportunities to push him back or delay his starts.
- If Strasburg wasn't on board with this, he would be raising hell telling everyone (including Boras) that this isn't what he wants. If Chris Sale/his agent could go to KW and the Sox and overturn that decision, you bet Strasburg could do the same. Although Strasburg has said all of the right things publically (like "I'm going to fight this" just this past weekend), he obviously isn't fighting it very hard.

There are probably some things I missed, but this decision is out of this world stupid. Things in baseball are so fickle from year-to-year and the Nationals - with Strasburg - are quite possibly the best team in baseball. Taking their ace out of that formula, I'm not so sure and there's absolutely no guarantee that they'll be back at the top like they are now. Yes, they absolutely could be (and probably are) building something like the Braves of the '90s, but in this sport there are no guarantees (including the continued health of his new labrum).

kittle42
09-04-2012, 02:41 PM
I agree that they should have gone with a 6-man rotation or found some way to work him less, but in the end, this is a decision driven more by Strasburg and his agent than anyone.

If the Sox had to shut down Sale right now, I would be very unhappy, but I'd get it.

DeadMoney
09-04-2012, 03:10 PM
I agree that they should have gone with a 6-man rotation or found some way to work him less, but in the end, this is a decision driven more by Strasburg and his agent than anyone.

If the Sox had to shut down Sale right now, I would be very unhappy, but I'd get it.

If it came out of the blue, I'd be the same way - mad, but understanding. My problem with this decision is that they've been talking about this exact plan all season. So many other options and not a single one explored. On top of it, it sure seems like Rizzo and the Nationals are trying to protect him so that in 5 years he can get a massive deal from probably some other team. I mean, when has Boras ever had a client not take the most money available?

amsteel
09-04-2012, 03:29 PM
I honestly had no clue that shutting him down meant he wouldn't be pitching in the playoffs. Terrible decision and terrible management.

Noneck
09-04-2012, 03:40 PM
If this is actually going to happen, will he be put on the 60day inactive list which would open a spot on the 40 man roster? Or is it too late to add to the 40 man roster?

aryzner
09-04-2012, 04:20 PM
I honestly had no clue that shutting him down meant he wouldn't be pitching in the playoffs. Terrible decision and terrible management.

Same. I thought when I originally heard this that it meant that this would be resting him FOR the playoffs.

This is ridiculous. How could they not want him pitching for their team come playoff time? It's absolutely absurd.

DSpivack
09-04-2012, 04:33 PM
Same. I thought when I originally heard this that it meant that this would be resting him FOR the playoffs.

This is ridiculous. How could they not want him pitching for their team come playoff time? It's absolutely absurd.

And if so, why not just shut him down with 2 or 3 starts ago (so, a couple weeks ago at this point) and then have him pitch in the playoffs? I don't get it.

SoxSpeed22
09-04-2012, 04:56 PM
On SportsCenter, they compared Strasburg's innings to Kris Medlen from the Braves. Medlen's innings were a lot more spaced out compared to Strasburg. I get that Strasburg is looking for a big pay day soon, but I compared this to going full tilt during a long bike race, and then slamming on the brakes near the end. The Nats have a shot at the World Series, taking him right out of the race means that the Nats might have just thrown away the pennant.
You don't know what's going to happen next year, Gio could get hurt, Zimmerman (both of them) could have off years, I would have taken the Braves approach.

eriqjaffe
09-04-2012, 05:31 PM
I understand, kind of, what the Nationals are doing. They made this plan in the off-season, at a time when very few people expected them to really contend. And, hey, if your team is hovering in third place, around .500 then I don't see what the big deal is. Why risk him getting hurt? What do you have to lose?

Flas forward to now. The Nats have the best record in the NL, and their rotation is really strong all the way around. Edwin Jackson is probably their worst pitcher, and he has an ERA+ of 112 (to contrast, the Sox only have three starters with an ERA+ over 100). It's unlikely that they'll collapse to the point that they'll miss out on the playoffs entirely. Will the 5 games he'll miss in September kill them? Probably not.

But in a short series, pitching is crucial. We of all people should all be intimate with that from 2005. Are their other 4 pitchers good enough to take them through the postseason? Probably. But given how difficult it can be to return to the playoffs - as people have said, who knows who else could get injured or have an off-year in 2013 - it makes so little sense to sit their best pitcher. It's not like he's going to be called upon to pitch another hundred innings. The most he's likely to pitch is 4, maybe 5 games. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 innings. Seems like it's contrary to the very nature of sports itself to handicap yourself in the postseason.

What happens if the Nats make the World Series and lose in 7? Will people say, "Everybody knows that the White Sox wouldn't have won if they'd had to face Strasburg a couple times"? It's a mockery of the sport.

I kind of respect the Nationals for making their plan and sticking to it no matter what. But I'd respect them more for showing some more respect for the game.

soltrain21
09-04-2012, 05:46 PM
They've been very good all year. How you don't skip a start here and there is craziness.

Noneck
09-04-2012, 06:12 PM
This is based on nothing but Im calling bs on this whole deal. There is either more to the story or he will be back this year. This is a team with their first shot in who knows how long and the way things go, maybe not another shot in even longer. You just cant give it away.

palehozenychicty
09-05-2012, 12:51 AM
The Nationals need to be punished for this decision by missing the postseaon or being eliminated in the wild-card play-in game, which is pretty much the same thing.

I can understand the anger at the decision. But no.

DSpivack
09-05-2012, 02:22 AM
This is based on nothing but Im calling bs on this whole deal. There is either more to the story or he will be back this year. This is a team with their first shot in who knows how long and the way things go, maybe not another shot in even longer. You just cant give it away.

Heh, and who knows better than White Sox fans that sometimes your shot is just that one season?

doublem23
09-05-2012, 08:49 AM
I guess there was just too much success for the good ol' Natinals.

Hitmen77
09-05-2012, 09:00 AM
I am actively rooting against them in the playoffs.

I'd actually like to see them make it to the World Series. That would mean that every NL expansion team has won a pennant since the Cubs last won one in '45.:redneck

TDog
09-05-2012, 06:12 PM
Heh, and who knows better than White Sox fans that sometimes your shot is just that one season?

Or, as Leon Durham said with a shrug after losing three straight games to lose the best of five 1984 NLCS, we'll win it next year. And the theme for the 2004 Cubs was "armed and ready."

For the Nationals, this is shaping up to be a season that slips away, perhaps never to come back. Maybe they won't totally lose it at the end like the 6.5-up-with-12-to-go 1964 Phillies, but it would be justice for them to at least lose it in the postseason. Then when they never get back, you could have a Strasburg curse.

If this were a good plan, although one based on fuzzy science, Strasburg wouldn't have started his season until June. What good is having a great pitcher if you don't use him?

Jollyroger2
09-05-2012, 11:04 PM
The Nationals did the exact same thing with Jordan Zimmerman's injury last season. Rizzo and Johnson have said all year this was their plan and they're sticking to it.

The thing a lot of people don't realize is even without SS, (who's been great but he's had some rough outings as the season went on) the Nationals still have an excellent rotation. Gonzalez now is 18-7 with a 2.99 ERA. Zimmerman 9-8, 3.01. Jackson 9-9, 3.63, and Detweiler 9-6, 3.15. That's a rotation a lot of teams would love to have. And John Lannan, who got dumped into AAA, was very capable with a 10-13 record and 3.70 ERA last year. He most likely will take Strasburg's place in the rotation. he may not overpower batters but he'll be solid.

Then you throw in a bullpen where aside from the little used Henry Rodriguez, you've got seven relievers with five of them having ERAs under 3 and the other two about 3.50. So their pitching is not going to implode and crash when SS sits down. I really don't know why the media is making such a huge deal out of it. Would they want him pitching in the postseason? Sure. But if something did happen and he regressed that would be awful.

The great thing here about the Nationals is they were supposed to contend for a Wild Card but that's it. This season has been a blast. Now they're 7 1/2 up on Atlanta and are probably a season or two ahead of where they should be. They've gone through some terrible seasons but have drafted well, rebuilt the farm system and made some good FA moves. Plus they're very young, so it's not like they have a rapidly closing window either. If they lose in the playoffs it won't be the end of the world, they'll probably be pretty good now for a few years.

I've adopted the Nats as my NL team and I'm perfectly fine shutting him down, so are most of the fans I know and the ones calling in on local radio here too. In fact a running joke is that him sitting will hurt the offense more, since he's a pretty good hitting pitcher. (.260 I think)

DSpivack
09-05-2012, 11:40 PM
The Nationals did the exact same thing with Jordan Zimmerman's injury last season. Rizzo and Johnson have said all year this was their plan and they're sticking to it.

The thing a lot of people don't realize is even without SS, (who's been great but he's had some rough outings as the season went on) the Nationals still have an excellent rotation. Gonzalez now is 18-7 with a 2.99 ERA. Zimmerman 9-8, 3.01. Jackson 9-9, 3.63, and Detweiler 9-6, 3.15. That's a rotation a lot of teams would love to have. And John Lannan, who got dumped into AAA, was very capable with a 10-13 record and 3.70 ERA last year. He most likely will take Strasburg's place in the rotation. he may not overpower batters but he'll be solid.

Then you throw in a bullpen where aside from the little used Henry Rodriguez, you've got seven relievers with five of them having ERAs under 3 and the other two about 3.50. So their pitching is not going to implode and crash when SS sits down. I really don't know why the media is making such a huge deal out of it. Would they want him pitching in the postseason? Sure. But if something did happen and he regressed that would be awful.

The great thing here about the Nationals is they were supposed to contend for a Wild Card but that's it. This season has been a blast. Now they're 7 1/2 up on Atlanta and are probably a season or two ahead of where they should be. They've gone through some terrible seasons but have drafted well, rebuilt the farm system and made some good FA moves. Plus they're very young, so it's not like they have a rapidly closing window either. If they lose in the playoffs it won't be the end of the world, they'll probably be pretty good now for a few years.

I've adopted the Nats as my NL team and I'm perfectly fine shutting him down, so are most of the fans I know and the ones calling in on local radio here too. In fact a running joke is that him sitting will hurt the offense more, since he's a pretty good hitting pitcher. (.260 I think)

Yeah, I don't think there would be a positive reaction around these parts if the Sox sat Chris Sale because of a prescribed plan, even if the Sox had the best record in baseball.

It seems completely unprecedented to me to sit an ace pitcher in the middle of September and to have him not available for the playoffs when he seems completely healthy. That's insane, it's as if the Nationals assume they'll have the opportunity to win a World Series in years to come without realizing they're currently the best team in baseball.

It also makes no sense to me as they could have skipped starts and/or innings throughout the year and have him available for the playoffs without pitching any more total innings than he will anyway.

Noneck
09-06-2012, 12:00 AM
I've adopted the Nats as my NL team and I'm perfectly fine shutting him down, so are most of the fans I know and the ones calling in on local radio here too.


I wonder how you and other fans will feel if you lose out because a poor pitching performance and dont get back there in upcoming years. Regrets could be mighty deep.

Jollyroger2
09-06-2012, 10:53 AM
I wonder how you and other fans will feel if you lose out because a poor pitching performance and dont get back there in upcoming years. Regrets could be mighty deep.

Well, Strasburg could have a bad night in the playoffs just as easily as any of their other pitchers. In two of his last five starts he got clobbered.

Of course I think most Nats fans or followers want him to pitch in the postseason. But say the worst happens and he does blow his arm out and he's done permanently? Then that's a scenario nobody wants to risk.

Will this decision kill them in the postseason? Maybe/maybe not. He's one guy, and it's not like he's carrying the team on his shoulders. They're 32 games over .500 for a lot of reasons, he's just one of them.

Where it might hurt them the most is say if they play the Reds or someone like them in the playoffs. A team with outstanding pitching and an average to decent offense, just like Washington. I can see a lot of 2-1 type games there.

ajk3873
09-06-2012, 11:22 AM
This is absolutely insane. One of the best pitchers in the league this year won't be pitching in the playoffs. Imagine if he blows out his arm his first start next year.

Noneck
09-06-2012, 12:30 PM
Well, Strasburg could have a bad night in the playoffs just as easily as any of their other pitchers. In two of his last five starts he got clobbered.

Of course I think most Nats fans or followers want him to pitch in the postseason. But say the worst happens and he does blow his arm out and he's done permanently? Then that's a scenario nobody wants to risk.

Will this decision kill them in the postseason? Maybe/maybe not. He's one guy, and it's not like he's carrying the team on his shoulders. They're 32 games over .500 for a lot of reasons, he's just one of them.

Where it might hurt them the most is say if they play the Reds or someone like them in the playoffs. A team with outstanding pitching and an average to decent offense, just like Washington. I can see a lot of 2-1 type games there.

If you and other national fans can live with it, that is all that matters I guess.

kittle42
09-06-2012, 02:21 PM
This is absolutely insane. One of the best pitchers in the league this year won't be pitching in the playoffs. Imagine if he blows out his arm his first start next year.

This is absolutely insane. One of the best pitchers in the league this year being *completely* overworked when he has *already* had a major surgery at such a young age??? Imagine if he blows out his arm his first playoff start.

See how the above could just as easily be argued?

Jollyroger2
09-06-2012, 02:27 PM
If you and other national fans can live with it, that is all that matters I guess.

If he was super-critical to the team or their only decent starter then I might feel differently, but the Nats have played 136 games this season and he's only pitched in 27. The supporting cast is pretty good too.

doublem23
09-06-2012, 02:37 PM
If he was super-critical to the team or their only decent starter then I might feel differently, but the Nats have played 136 games this season and he's only pitched in 27. The supporting cast is pretty good too.

This is probably the 1st time in the history of baseball someone has tried to argue that a team's #1 starter is not super-critical to their success.

bunkaroo
09-06-2012, 02:57 PM
If I was a Nats fan I'd be more concerned as to how Rizzo's handling of this might hinder their ability to sign top young pitching prospects in the future.

WLL1855
09-06-2012, 02:59 PM
Of course I think most Nats fans or followers want him to pitch in the postseason. But say the worst happens and he does blow his arm out and he's done permanently? Then that's a scenario nobody wants to risk.


Then why let him pitch ever again?

I find it unbelievable that there are people who bring up this statement like it is some kind of inevitability. There is no way to predict when a UCL injury will happen. NONE. For all the coddling being done to Strasburg right now, he could just as well injure the elbow in a spring training game next year.

The guy is one of the best pitchers in the league and I've yet to hear news that his elbow is anything but healthy. I'd love to hear some words coming straight out of Strasburg's mouth about what he thinks of all this. Everything I've heard so far has been filtered through other sources, either Boras or the team officials. It makes me wonder if there is some kind of gag order put on him to avoid speaking to the press about the subject.

cub killer
09-06-2012, 06:28 PM
Money talks, bull**** walks. A player has to be concerned about the longevity of his career, over a WS ring. As unromantic as that sounds, that's reality.

kittle42
09-07-2012, 12:08 AM
If I was a Nats fan I'd be more concerned as to how Rizzo's handling of this might hinder their ability to sign top young pitching prospects in the future.

Why? It's the Nats that are following his agent's wishes to protect him.

bunkaroo
09-07-2012, 09:55 AM
Why? It's the Nats that are following his agent's wishes to protect him.

I guess that wasn't common knowledge to me. Always seemed like a Rizzo decision. If Strasburg is in agreement with Boras then obviously it's on them.

kittle42
09-07-2012, 12:14 PM
I guess that wasn't common knowledge to me. Always seemed like a Rizzo decision. If Strasburg is in agreement with Boras then obviously it's on them.

For all intents and purposes in agent/player/team dealings, what the agent says is the player's position. Otherwise, the player fires the agent.

Jollyroger2
09-07-2012, 02:44 PM
This is probably the 1st time in the history of baseball someone has tried to argue that a team's #1 starter is not super-critical to their success.

He's their marquee name pitcher but the other four starters have ERAs of 2.99, 2.98, 3.63 and 3.15, all four with 140-175 innings pitched so far. This isn't a situation like the Sox where they have Peavy and then Sale/Quintana who are tiring and then fill in the blank.

The conception that the Nationals are SS and a bunch of stiffs still seems to be what most in the media think. As if he's the only one responsible for them being now 33 games over .500.

DSpivack
09-07-2012, 03:35 PM
He's their marquee name pitcher but the other four starters have ERAs of 2.99, 2.98, 3.63 and 3.15, all four with 140-175 innings pitched so far. This isn't a situation like the Sox where they have Peavy and then Sale/Quintana who are tiring and then fill in the blank.

The conception that the Nationals are SS and a bunch of stiffs still seems to be what most in the media think. As if he's the only one responsible for them being now 33 games over .500.

Of course that's not the case. But I don't know of many (or any) playoff teams in baseball history that willingly and voluntarily benched their otherwise healthy ace both down the stretch and in the playoffs.

I don't see how this helps the team with the current best record in baseball win a World Series title.

TDog
09-07-2012, 04:19 PM
Of course that's not the case. But I don't know of many (or any) playoff teams in baseball history that willingly and voluntarily benched their otherwise healthy ace both down the stretch and in the playoffs.

I don't see how this helps the team with the current best record in baseball win a World Series title.

If Strasburg had sustained an injury or had been suspended for the rest of the season, fans would be mourning his loss, and the media would be discussing how much this would hurt the team. Strangely enough, the two Bay Area teams that lost important components to contending teams are actually better teams, or at least more successfu teams, without the players the league suspended.

What bothers me is the idea that great pitchers are better off not pitching. It isn't that Strasburg is unhealthy. There is the idea that he could be if he continues to pitch, although his original injury had nothing to do with overwork and there is no concern about overwork affecting others who have to pick up more of the load. Fortunately for the Giants, Buster Posey, coming off of his serios injury, only has to worry about catching and the occasional day off at first base.

Actually, I would like to see the Tigers shut down Justin Verlander. He has pitched so much over the past two years, and every time he goes out there, his chances of injury increase (just ask Brandon McCarthy). But, really, this entire concept of Strasburg being too special a pitcher to pitch has me really hating the Nationals.

It would be tragically comedic, more tragic in a dramatic sense, where choices made by (or for) the tragic figure lead to his demise, if Strasburg came back next year and developed arm trouble in May, or even if Gonzalez came up with an injury. The Nationals are acting as if winning this year doesn't matter. Some would label them a garbage team, though, considering how long it's been since they have been to the postseason.

The Nationals used to be a feel good story.

Jollyroger2
09-07-2012, 08:35 PM
Of course that's not the case. But I don't know of many (or any) playoff teams in baseball history that willingly and voluntarily benched their otherwise healthy ace both down the stretch and in the playoffs.

I don't see how this helps the team with the current best record in baseball win a World Series title.

Well and there's the question, is he the ace? Gonzalez is 18-7 with a 2.98 ERA and could also lay claim to that. And Strasburg is getting shelled again tonight. Now in two of his last three starts he's looked below average. Is he tiring? Who knows. And he's only throwing 5/6 innings per start anyway. Tonight he lasted just 3 innings.

His ERA is comparable to every other starting pitcher Washington has. I think people still think he's 15-1 with a 1-something ERA and striking out 12 guys a night, which isn't the case. He's been good but not overpowering.

I think people are reading too much into this. They did exactly the same thing with J. Zimmerman last year after the same kind of surgery, protecting an investment. They'd have done this if the Nats were in 1st or 4th place and they've said so all along. Maybe him getting rocked a few times is evidence that something isn't quite right.

Jollyroger2
09-07-2012, 08:47 PM
If Strasburg had sustained an injury or had been suspended for the rest of the season, fans would be mourning his loss, and the media would be discussing how much this would hurt the team. Strangely enough, the two Bay Area teams that lost important components to contending teams are actually better teams, or at least more successfu teams, without the players the league suspended.

What bothers me is the idea that great pitchers are better off not pitching. It isn't that Strasburg is unhealthy. There is the idea that he could be if he continues to pitch, although his original injury had nothing to do with overwork and there is no concern about overwork affecting others who have to pick up more of the load. Fortunately for the Giants, Buster Posey, coming off of his serios injury, only has to worry about catching and the occasional day off at first base.

Actually, I would like to see the Tigers shut down Justin Verlander. He has pitched so much over the past two years, and every time he goes out there, his chances of injury increase (just ask Brandon McCarthy). But, really, this entire concept of Strasburg being too special a pitcher to pitch has me really hating the Nationals.

It would be tragically comedic, more tragic in a dramatic sense, where choices made by (or for) the tragic figure lead to his demise, if Strasburg came back next year and developed arm trouble in May, or even if Gonzalez came up with an injury. The Nationals are acting as if winning this year doesn't matter. Some would label them a garbage team, though, considering how long it's been since they have been to the postseason.

The Nationals used to be a feel good story.

I haven't heard a single person or media rep label the Nats a garbage team...not sure where that's coming from. The franchise was owned by MLB and run into the gutter in Montreal, with the worst ranked farm system in baseball. They get moved to DC, play in a decrepit dump for a few years and in the meantime, totally blow the team up and rebuild the farm system while acknowledging to the fan base there would be some lean years, and there were with back to back 100-L seasons.

Now they are loaded with some excellent young players, the farm system is in great shape again, they have money to spend and the area around the ballpark is a revitalized section of DC that was an armpit before. The front office has made some good moves and they play hard, scrappy baseball. The games are fun to go to, and they win alot. And most likely, they will be competitive for a while.

As for others having to pick up the workload, again, the Nats are very deep with their pitching, so much so they had to send a quality guy like Lannan who was a good starter last season down to AAA. Barring other injuries, they'll be fine. Especially with just 2-3 weeks of reg. season left. I don't think the Nats don't care about winning this year, again, not sure where that is coming from. They have just said from day one this was going to be their plan with SS, no matter what record the team had at the time.

Nobody knows what will happen with SS, any player can get hurt anytime, they're just being extra cautious with a potential superstar pitcher. But tonight he was out after just 3 innings and another beating. Maybe his health isn't 100%...or he's just getting tired.

As a Sox fan, even without SS I would love to have the rotation they have going into the postseason. Would be a hell of a lot better than this clusterflop the Sox have now.

kevingrt
09-08-2012, 11:50 AM
It's official Strasburg is done: http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/mlb/377396/nationals-officially-shut-down-strasburg

I'd be so pissed as a Gnats fan.

soltrain21
09-08-2012, 12:29 PM
I'm confused about Davy Johnson saying it's mental.

doublem23
09-08-2012, 01:12 PM
I'm confused about Davy Johnson saying it's mental.

He said all the hype around it was starting to weigh on Strasburg's mind; wasn't getting enough sleep, wasn't mentally into his starts...

For what its worth

kevingrt
09-08-2012, 01:39 PM
He said all the hype around it was starting to weigh on Strasburg's mind; wasn't getting enough sleep, wasn't mentally into his starts...

For what its worth

Hype around what? Him being done. Wouldn't that be the opposite of hype?

SephClone89
09-08-2012, 02:04 PM
Hype around what? Him being done. Wouldn't that be the opposite of hype?

It was the number one baseball story for a couple months. Hearing EVERYWHERE about how you and your fanbase are getting royally screwed by management. Think that counts as hype.

thomas35forever
09-08-2012, 02:14 PM
It's official Strasburg is done: http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/mlb/377396/nationals-officially-shut-down-strasburg

I'd be so pissed as a Gnats fan.
Unbelievable. I wonder how he feels about the fact that he won't be able to help them in the playoffs. When will they even get another chance.

Soxman219
09-08-2012, 10:31 PM
Embarrassing move by the Nats organization. He might not get another chance to play in the postseason. Strasburg can easily rupture his elbow again next year, why not just rest him until the playoffs? The goal of every organization is to win a championship; you need your best men on the job. The Nats are asking to get swept in the divisional series.

Jollyroger2
09-08-2012, 11:11 PM
Embarrassing move by the Nats organization. He might not get another chance to play in the postseason. Strasburg can easily rupture his elbow again next year, why not just rest him until the playoffs? The goal of every organization is to win a championship; you need your best men on the job. The Nats are asking to get swept in the divisional series.

The Nats have said since before spring training, no matter what the team's record was at the time, they were going to keep him to roughly 160 IP. Bottom line is they are taking the medical advice they were given and doing what they think best for their long term investment.

I've said many times the other four pitchers are pretty good. SS's ERA is only third best in his own rotation. The team has somehow managed to go 67-44 in the games where SS didn't start. I'm in the DC area so I see them alot, but it amazes me how little people know about the Nationals. The concept still seems to be that they are SS and a bunch of stiffs.

If they do lose in the playoffs, or crash and burn and not make the playoffs, then life goes in. They still have a very good young team coming back next season and they have plenty of $$ to spend if they choose to.

Lip Man 1
09-08-2012, 11:25 PM
He's apparently upset over the decision and you wonder how this is playing out in the clubhouse considering there are no guarantees some of these guys will ever get a playoff chance like this again:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8351235/stephen-strasburg-washington-nationals-not-too-happy-decision-shut-down

Lip

kittle42
09-09-2012, 01:15 AM
I admit I was apparently wrong about what I said - it looks now like it was the Nats and Boras, and not Strasburg, who wanted this.

Hmm. I still get the decision, I guess.

DSpivack
09-09-2012, 01:20 AM
The Nats have said since before spring training, no matter what the team's record was at the time, they were going to keep him to roughly 160 IP. Bottom line is they are taking the medical advice they were given and doing what they think best for their long term investment.

I've said many times the other four pitchers are pretty good. SS's ERA is only third best in his own rotation. The team has somehow managed to go 67-44 in the games where SS didn't start. I'm in the DC area so I see them alot, but it amazes me how little people know about the Nationals. The concept still seems to be that they are SS and a bunch of stiffs.

If they do lose in the playoffs, or crash and burn and not make the playoffs, then life goes in. They still have a very good young team coming back next season and they have plenty of $$ to spend if they choose to.

You keep on saying this, and repeating this point, and I don't really see anyone disagreeing with it. If Strasburg was their only good starter, they would not have the best record in baseball. I haven't seen anyone in the thread say the Nationals are Strasburg "and a bunch of stiffs." Gio and Zimmermann have been good, and so have Jackson and Detwiler, but I don't know that I would want to trust the latter two (or John Lannan) to start a playoff game. They would be that much better off with Strasburg than without. And while I understand limiting the young starter to 160 IP, I do not understand the way they went about it. Putting an effective date on the calendar to completely stop the season of one of your best starters, otherwise healthy, seems to be saying that management was not planning on being competitive after that point. I don't really see how they're a better bet in the playoffs without Strasburg than with him. And I also don't understand how they could not have come up with some kind of plan to have him pitching in the postseason, whether that was delaying the start of his season, skipping starts or giving him an extra day of rest, shutting him down a starter or two early before playoffs, starting his season as a reliever; Chris Sale and Kris Medlen will be making playoff starts for their respective teams, assuming they make the postseason, and are also under similar close eyes due to their youth (and possibly their respective health situations, as well).

The point is not that the Nationals are currently a garbage team or nothing without Strasburg. It's that they currently have the best record in baseball and should be a good bet for the postseason, and they will be without one of their best starters, completely voluntarily as some sort of odd hope for the future that pitching a few starts in the postseason will be too harmful for his long-term health. They're that sure they'll return to the playoffs? That those few starts will be too harmful to his long-term health? You would have been fine if they were in a similar situation, the White Sox in September 2005 benched Mark Buehrle (just as a hypothetical)? Or if the Sox shut down Chris Sale this fall, even if they had topped Detroit in the AL Central? I can't think of any precedent for this, nor can I think of any real good reason for it.

Nellie_Fox
09-09-2012, 02:06 AM
You would have been fine if they were in a similar situation, the White Sox in September 2005 benched Mark Buehrle (just as a hypothetical)? Or if the Sox shut down Chris Sale this fall, even if they had topped Detroit in the AL Central? I can't think of any precedent for this, nor can I think of any real good reason for it.Buehrle and Sale weren't/aren't coming off Tommy John surgery. That's the reason for it; I'll let you form your own opinion as to whether it's a "real good" one.

DSpivack
09-09-2012, 02:11 AM
Buehrle and Sale weren't/aren't coming off Tommy John surgery. That's the reason for it; I'll let you form your own opinion as to whether it's a "real good" one.

Yeah, I know, I meant if they were in the same situation as Strasburg. Though I think the comparison to Sale and Medlen is a fair one (though as you say, of course inexact because of Strasburg's injury history); while Sale is at 163 IP, Medlen is at just 104 IP. I think the Nats had other options here to both limit the youngster's innings as well as have him pitch in the postseason.

chicagowhitesox1
09-09-2012, 02:38 AM
Some say he is the Nationals 4th best pitcher.

1. Gio Gonzalez
18-7w/l 2.98era 175ip 134era+ 3.8war
2. Jordan Zimmerman
10-8w/l 2.99era 171ip 134era+ 3.4war
3. Ross Detwiler
9-6w/l 3.15era 140ip 127era+ 2.2war
Stephen Strasburg
15-6w/l 3.16era 159ip 126era+ 2.6war

I would say he's the Nationals third best pitcher but it might not hurt em as much as some may think in the playoffs.

wassagstdu
09-09-2012, 08:15 AM
Could it be that this decision is less about limiting his innings per se and more about setting him up for an extended off-season?

34rancher
09-09-2012, 09:18 AM
Could it be that this decision is less about limiting his innings per se and more about setting him up for an extended off-season?

See I'm with you and confused. Why not shut him down for 3 weeks and have him start getting ready for playoffs in month? That should be more than enough time for strengthening.

doublem23
09-09-2012, 09:35 AM
Some say he is the Nationals 4th best pitcher.

1. Gio Gonzalez
18-7w/l 2.98era 175ip 134era+ 3.8war
2. Jordan Zimmerman
10-8w/l 2.99era 171ip 134era+ 3.4war
3. Ross Detwiler
9-6w/l 3.15era 140ip 127era+ 2.2war
Stephen Strasburg
15-6w/l 3.16era 159ip 126era+ 2.6war

I would say he's the Nationals third best pitcher but it might not hurt em as much as some may think in the playoffs.

Look at the K/9 IP, BB/9 IP, and K/BB ratios, if you're talking about a do or die game, he's the guy in Washington's rotation you want pitching

TaylorStSox
09-09-2012, 10:02 AM
See I'm with you and confused. Why not shut him down for 3 weeks and have him start getting ready for playoffs in month? That should be more than enough time for strengthening.
Shutting him down for a month, then starting him without Spring training might be the worst thing they can do to his arm.

chicagowhitesox1
09-09-2012, 10:29 AM
Look at the K/9 IP, BB/9 IP, and K/BB ratios, if you're talking about a do or die game, he's the guy in Washington's rotation you want pitching

I know I would want him in there but these other pitchers they have are pretty good. I think the Nationals without Strasburg still have the strongest staff. The Giants would be the most comparable but I would still take the Nationals in overall pitching.

Gio Gonzalez over Matt Cain
Jordan Zimmerman over Madison Bumgarner
Ross Deitwiler over Ryan Vogelsong
Edwin Jackson would be a push vs Tim Lincecum or Barry Zito
Nationals Bullpen over Giants Bullpen

Daver
09-09-2012, 01:29 PM
Shutting him down for a month, then starting him without Spring training might be the worst thing they can do to his arm.

Not really.

I'm still trying to figure out how the only athletes that haven't gotten stronger with more stamina with the advances we have in nutrition and medical science are major league pitchers.

thomas35forever
09-09-2012, 01:53 PM
Not really.

I'm still trying to figure out how the only athletes that haven't gotten stronger with more stamina with the advances we have in nutrition and medical science are major league pitchers.
It's amazing how pitchers used to be able to pitch both games of doubleheaders and they suddenly can't do anything close to that anymore. Is it the agents/general managers behind it or what?

TDog
09-09-2012, 02:07 PM
I haven't heard a single person or media rep label the Nats a garbage team...not sure where that's coming from. ...


I've been reading all season that the Orioles are a garbage team because of where they were in previous years and that the Royals are a garbage team because they have been losing for years and got off to a rough start this year. I assumed people held the Nationals to the same standard.

Pitching, starting pitching more than relief pitching, is the most fragile commodity there is in baseball. Strasburg isn't being shut down because he is hurt. He is being shut down, from his agent's perspective, because if he pitches less he will be able to make more money in the future. And, of course, if he can get more money by not pitching, there is no reason to pitch and risk showing that he can't perform when the season is on the line. Really, if the Nationals don't need Strasburg, they really don't need to pay him what they are paying him now.

The team has a chance to win a championship. If it doesn't, the players will gain the experience of competing for a championship. If Strasburg is an important part of the pitching staff, if he isn't injured, you don't shut him down in his first pennant race.

Daver
09-09-2012, 03:08 PM
It's amazing how pitchers used to be able to pitch both games of doubleheaders and they suddenly can't do anything close to that anymore. Is it the agents/general managers behind it or what?

The mid seventies Baltimore Orioles and the advent of free agency share the majority of the blame.

chicagowhitesox1
09-09-2012, 04:14 PM
The mid seventies Baltimore Orioles and the advent of free agency share the majority of the blame.

Are you saying the Orioles are to blame because they threw alot of complete games?

I would say Billy Martin's Athletic teams in the early 80's was what really made managers look differently on how they used starting pitching. Especially younger pitchers. Martin blew out every arm on that staff.

Daver
09-09-2012, 04:25 PM
Are you saying the Orioles are to blame because they threw alot of complete games?

I would say Billy Martin's Athletic teams in the early 80's was what really made managers look differently on how they used starting pitching. Especially younger pitchers. Martin blew out every arm on that staff.

No, the Orioles started the five man rotation, which every team had to copycat, soon after that free agency was established and starting pitcher rapidly become the most expensive part of every team's roster. In an effort to "protect" that investment they came up with the nonsense of pitch counts and inning limits, instead of actually working pitchers to strengthen them. The downward spiral keeps continuing.

chicagowhitesox1
09-09-2012, 04:33 PM
No, the Orioles started the five man rotation, which every team had to copycat, soon after that free agency was established and starting pitcher rapidly become the most expensive part of every team's roster. In an effort to "protect" that investment they came up with the nonsense of pitch counts and inning limits, instead of actually working pitchers to strengthen them. The downward spiral keeps continuing.

I forgot about Weaver and his pitch counts. It's strange because those Orioles still threw alot of complete games in those days. But your right that had to be the start of coddling pitchers.

mahagga73
09-11-2012, 12:09 AM
Or, as Leon Durham said with a shrug after losing three straight games to lose the best of five 1984 NLCS, we'll win it next year. And the theme for the 2004 Cubs was "armed and ready."

For the Nationals, this is shaping up to be a season that slips away, perhaps never to come back. Maybe they won't totally lose it at the end like the 6.5-up-with-12-to-go 1964 Phillies, but it would be justice for them to at least lose it in the postseason. Then when they never get back, you could have a Strasburg curse.

If this were a good plan, although one based on fuzzy science, Strasburg wouldn't have started his season until June. What good is having a great pitcher if you don't use him?
That Cubs team was a bunch of over the hillers playing way over their head. Dernier, Cey, Bowa. They actually had below average pitching also.

Zakath
09-11-2012, 08:16 AM
Shutting him down for a month, then starting him without Spring training might be the worst thing they can do to his arm.

Agreed. I was of the opinion, apparently like everyone else, that they were shutting him down to save him for the postseason, and thought it would have made more sense to skip starts throughout the season rather than shut him down at the end.

Now, the move to completely shut him down makes a little more sense, if you had no intention of saving him for the postseason. Still think it's pretty stupid, though.

Tragg
09-11-2012, 11:06 AM
I don't quarrel with their decision to limit him.
But I guess I would have used a different strategy, especially as they led their division by 5+ games most of the season and have never been threatened: maybe pitch him on 6 days rest or limit him to 5 innings per game, instead of just shutting off like this.

doublem23
09-11-2012, 11:14 AM
I don't quarrel with their decision to limit him.
But I guess I would have used a different strategy, especially as they led their division by 5+ games most of the season and have never been threatened: maybe pitch him on 6 days rest or limit him to 5 innings per game, instead of just shutting off like this.

That's what I would have done, too

Daver
09-11-2012, 11:46 PM
Shutting him down for a month, then starting him without Spring training might be the worst thing they can do to his arm.

Agreed. I was of the opinion, apparently like everyone else, that they were shutting him down to save him for the postseason, and thought it would have made more sense to skip starts throughout the season rather than shut him down at the end.


Based on what?

WLL1855
09-13-2012, 12:41 AM
Based on what?

Everyone is a hobbyist sports doctor these days. Might as well pull some kind of random throwing 'program' out of your ass. Seems like that's what the agents do.

Lip Man 1
09-13-2012, 05:22 PM
Story today in the Tribune that quotes Dr. Lewis Yokum the guy who did the surgery on Strasburg, as saying the Nationals never consulted with him on the decision to shut him down.

Said Strasburg is still upset over what happened.

Lip

TommyGavinFloyd
09-13-2012, 06:16 PM
Story today in the Tribune that quotes Dr. Lewis Yokum the guy who did the surgery on Strasburg, as saying the Nationals never consulted with him on the decision to shut him down.

Said Strasburg is still upset over what happened.

Lip

He should be. Nothing is guaranteed. They have their shot now. Take it. I'd be very upset if I was a Nats fan. And I am rooting for them to lose now because of this. Go Reds.

Jollyroger2
09-14-2012, 02:35 PM
Story today in the Tribune that quotes Dr. Lewis Yokum the guy who did the surgery on Strasburg, as saying the Nationals never consulted with him on the decision to shut him down.

Said Strasburg is still upset over what happened.

Lip

As cruel as it sounds, he's the Nationals property and he does what he's told. Maybe if he hadn't gotten shelled in two of his last three starts and if his ERA wasn't steadily rising since the all-star break, he'd still be pitching. But clearly something was off with him whether it was physical or mental or a combination of both. He has not been "vintage" SS for a long time, that's what people still don't seem to get.

And his replacement, John Lannan, as expected did just fine the other night, allowing two hits over seven innings and no runs. Ironic that in the week or so since the announcement the Nats division lead has grown to its largest this year. Clearly they are collapsing and doomed without SS.

DSpivack
09-14-2012, 02:56 PM
As cruel as it sounds, he's the Nationals property and he does what he's told. Maybe if he hadn't gotten shelled in two of his last three starts and if his ERA wasn't steadily rising since the all-star break, he'd still be pitching. But clearly something was off with him whether it was physical or mental or a combination of both. He has not been "vintage" SS for a long time, that's what people still don't seem to get.

And his replacement, John Lannan, as expected did just fine the other night, allowing two hits over seven innings and no runs. Ironic that in the week or so since the announcement the Nats division lead has grown to its largest this year. Clearly they are collapsing and doomed without SS.

Glad to see that straw man has returned.

I am sure John Lannan will be just as good as Strasburg in the playoffs. :rolleyes:

kittle42
09-14-2012, 03:08 PM
Glad to see that straw man has returned.

I am sure John Lannan will be just as good as Strasburg in the playoffs. :rolleyes:

It's similar to the Dewayne Wise hitting third isn't a mistake position.

DSpivack
09-14-2012, 04:03 PM
It's similar to the Dewayne Wise hitting third isn't a mistake position.

At least that is temporary (or was when he first was seen in the 3-hole) and because Dunn is injured.

Replacing your ace with a mediocre starter in the playoffs (if they indeed go with Lannan) for no apparent reason is bizarre, and seems a bigger deal.

kittle42
09-14-2012, 04:10 PM
At least that is temporary (or was when he first was seen in the 3-hole) and because Dunn is injured.

Replacing your ace with a mediocre starter in the playoffs (if they indeed go with Lannan) for no apparent reason is bizarre, and seems a bigger deal.

Detwiler will be their 4th starter in the playoffs.

Huisj
09-14-2012, 04:44 PM
An interesting article about the history of coddling vs. abusing pitchers and trying to determine whether coddling prevents injury:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8369941/history-shows-washington-nationals-shut-stephen-strasburg-too-soon

He basically says that the percentage of young "phenom" type pitchers who burn out fast has dropped in recent years due to pitch counts and other things, and that because of that, Strasburg is already protected against injury risk far better than anyone from 25 years ago was, because the way pitchers are developed now is more friendly to arms. Coddling him even more by shutting him down isn't necessary because he's already coddled.

TommyGavinFloyd
09-14-2012, 04:49 PM
As cruel as it sounds, he's the Nationals property and he does what he's told. Maybe if he hadn't gotten shelled in two of his last three starts and if his ERA wasn't steadily rising since the all-star break, he'd still be pitching. But clearly something was off with him whether it was physical or mental or a combination of both. He has not been "vintage" SS for a long time, that's what people still don't seem to get.

And his replacement, John Lannan, as expected did just fine the other night, allowing two hits over seven innings and no runs. Ironic that in the week or so since the announcement the Nats division lead has grown to its largest this year. Clearly they are collapsing and doomed without SS.

I'm sure having this shutdown looming over him and being constantly questioned about it for the last month wasn't helping his focus very much.

DSpivack
09-14-2012, 05:11 PM
Detwiler will be their 4th starter in the playoffs.

Gotcha. Not as bad as Lannan, then.

SephClone89
09-19-2012, 10:34 AM
In my cold-induced half-dream phase last night, as I stirred at 3am and checked my phone to see that the Orioles/Mariners game had only just finished, I could have sworn I saw "Strasburg" as having pitched the 14th inning or something.

Of course, that was all ruined when I actually woke up and realized that Strasburg pitches for the other Beltway team.

Why not use him out of the pen in October?

WLL1855
09-19-2012, 06:25 PM
Why not use him out of the pen in October?

Scott Boras.