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View Full Version : FWIW - the PTBNL in the Myers trade...


Tragg
09-02-2012, 06:44 PM
threw a no hitter with 16Ks last night.

SephClone89
09-02-2012, 06:59 PM
Boy, that Kenny Williams sure specializes in trading away future HOFers.

spongyfungy
09-03-2012, 03:18 AM
Chris Devenski (http://www.wkyt.com/sports/headlines/Legends-Devenski-throws-no-hitter-in-10-0-win-168306756.html?ref=756)

white sox bill
09-03-2012, 08:44 AM
Lets have this convo in 3 yrs and analyze then

kittle42
09-03-2012, 10:56 AM
Boy, that Kenny Williams sure specializes in trading away future HOFers.

:tongue:

russ99
09-03-2012, 12:23 PM
Lets have this convo in 3 yrs and analyze then

Very true, Devenski could pan out or not, and usually in Low A, the pitchers are ahead of the hitters. But unless he gets hurt, his power arm could give him a shot.

Astros' GM Jeff Luhnow did well by dealing away his high salaried players and adding tons of good pitchers on the lower levels of the farm system.

He alsp drafted and signed a solid draft crop this year, and they also will pick first next year.

The Astros may be the butt of jokes now, but won't be in 3-4 years.

SephClone89
09-03-2012, 12:27 PM
Very true, Devenski could pan out or not, and usually in Low A, the pitchers are ahead of the hitters. But unless he gets hurt, his power arm could give him a shot.

Astros' GM Jeff Luhnow did well by dealing away his high salaried players and adding tons of good pitchers on the lower levels of the farm system.

He alsp drafted and signed a solid draft crop this year, and they also will pick first next year.

The Astros may be the butt of jokes now, but won't be in 3-4 years.

Interested to see how Goldstein fares as head of pro scouting, too.

Daver
09-03-2012, 01:28 PM
threw a no hitter with 16Ks last night.

And?

delben91
09-03-2012, 01:30 PM
threw a no hitter with 16Ks last night.

Kenny Williams suxxxxx

Tragg
09-03-2012, 06:30 PM
And?

There is no and.
Just putting out information.
Some seem to take offense at it.

Boondock Saint
09-03-2012, 06:35 PM
It's nice to see his name come up once before he's never heard from again.

kittle42
09-04-2012, 11:19 AM
There is no and.
Just putting out information.
Some seem to take offense at it.

Your implication is that we gave up something great here. Quite a stretch.

Tragg
09-04-2012, 06:29 PM
Your implication is that we gave up something great here. Quite a stretch.

No - that's your inference.
My implication is that he's a promising young player.

kittle42
09-04-2012, 06:40 PM
No - that's your inference.
My implication is that he's a promising young player.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=sa599312&position=P#standard

He's a dime a dozen at this point - not a top-30 prospect in the Sox system and just another A-baller. I'm sure he has some promise, otherwise the Astros wouldn't have had any interest, but there's nothing to see here.

delben91
09-04-2012, 07:27 PM
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=sa599312&position=P#standard

He's a dime a dozen at this point - not a top-30 prospect in the Sox system and just another A-baller. I'm sure he has some promise, otherwise the Astros wouldn't have had any interest, but there's nothing to see here.

I've heard scouts refer to him as "the next De Los Santos" except with more of a HoF guarantee.

Tragg
09-05-2012, 05:02 PM
I've heard scouts refer to him as "the next De Los Santos" except with more of a HoF guarantee.

For all the catcalling, EVERY prospect we gave up in that trade is a ML player and one is a clear all-star caliber player.
We have nothing.
These young players are all a crapshoot except for a few high first round choices. He doesn't look like much on paper, but fan-graphs accuracy on A Ball players isn't the best (no critique on them, just see above - some improve, some don't).

Look, I realize that I hold a different philosophy than many/most of those on this board. I think we're getting every ounce we can out of some past their prime veterans this season. People call Wise "excellent" when he's only "excellent" when compared to others who are in slumps are who just haven't developed (otherwise he's below mediocre, even this year). If we had more rising young players (we basically have 2 pitchers plus an in-their-prime Rios and De Aza) we might be able to push through September a little easier than we are.

TheOldRoman
09-05-2012, 05:16 PM
Look, I realize that I hold a different philosophy than many/most of those on this board. I think we're getting every ounce we can out of some past their prime veterans this season. People call Wise "excellent" when he's only "excellent" when compared to others who are in slumps are who just haven't developed (otherwise he's below mediocre, even this year). If we had more rising young players (we basically have 2 pitchers plus an in-their-prime Rios and De Aza) we might be able to push through September a little easier than we are.So, you think the Sox aren't talented. I think the Sox have underachieved this year based on their talent. And yet, the Sox are on pace to win 88 games and go to the playoffs. I guess we are both wrong.

kittle42
09-05-2012, 05:17 PM
Look, I realize that I hold a different philosophy than many/most of those on this board. I think we're getting every ounce we can out of some past their prime veterans this season. People call Wise "excellent" when he's only "excellent" when compared to others who are in slumps are who just haven't developed (otherwise he's below mediocre, even this year). If we had more rising young players (we basically have 2 pitchers plus an in-their-prime Rios and De Aza) we might be able to push through September a little easier than we are.

We traded three guys who aren't even in the top 30 organizational prospects for Brett Myers to fill an area we desperately needed in a season in which we are fighting for a pennant.

I don't see the issue here.

asindc
09-05-2012, 05:21 PM
We traded three guys who aren't even in the top 30 organizational prospects for Brett Myers to fill an area we desperately needed in a season in which we are fighting for a pennant.

I don't see the issue here.

I'll go a step further in saying that if KW had passed on this deal, I would have found him derelict in duty. I think every competent GM in baseball makes this trade when in the same situation as the Sox. There is no issue here.

doublem23
09-05-2012, 05:44 PM
Look, I realize that I hold a different philosophy than many/most of those on this board. I think we're getting every ounce we can out of some past their prime veterans this season. People call Wise "excellent" when he's only "excellent" when compared to others who are in slumps are who just haven't developed (otherwise he's below mediocre, even this year). If we had more rising young players (we basically have 2 pitchers plus an in-their-prime Rios and De Aza) we might be able to push through September a little easier than we are.

LOL

Exactly what team is banking on the contributions of "rising young players" and not in a dogfight for the postseason?

34 Inch Stick
09-06-2012, 03:27 PM
I appreciate the original post for exactly what it is and what it was intended to be, an interesting piece of information. Thanks

Tragg
09-09-2012, 05:46 PM
So, you think the Sox aren't talented. I think the Sox have underachieved this year based on their talent. And yet, the Sox are on pace to win 88 games and go to the playoffs. I guess we are both wrong.

I said we are squeezing everything we have out of the talent on hand. Not that they are untalented. AJ, Dunn, Konerko, Peavy, Youk are the best talents on this team (along with Sale) and are past their prime. De Aza, Rios and Alexei are in their prime.


LOL

Exactly what team is banking on the contributions of "rising young players" and not in a dogfight for the postseason?
LOL
What team in a dog fight uses Olmedo and Indian August cast-offs?

SephClone89
09-10-2012, 05:30 AM
Indian August

Is that like an Indian summer?

doublem23
09-10-2012, 09:04 AM
LOL
What team in a dog fight uses Olmedo and Indian August cast-offs?

Well, let's see, yesterday the Yankees started Steve Pearce and Jayson Nix, the Orioles started Nate McLouth (Pirates cast-off, probably just as bad), Texas started Cubs castaway Geovany Soto, Tampa Bay started Indians cast-off Ben Francisco and his career .420 slugging percentage and batted him 5th...

But no, you're right, the Sox are clearly the only team in the playoff hunt who would have the audacity to use busted down veterans in September.

kittle42
09-10-2012, 11:12 AM
Well, let's see, yesterday the Yankees started Steve Pearce and Jayson Nix, the Orioles started Nate McLouth (Pirates cast-off, probably just as bad), Texas started Cubs castaway Geovany Soto, Tampa Bay started Indians cast-off Ben Francisco and his career .420 slugging percentage and batted him 5th...

But no, you're right, the Sox are clearly the only team in the playoff hunt who would have the audacity to use busted down veterans in September.

Yes, but, you see, they're all better because they're not on the White Sox!

Remember - no other team does anything the Sox are doing badly.

asindc
09-10-2012, 11:54 AM
I said we are squeezing everything we have out of the talent on hand. Not that they are untalented. AJ, Dunn, Konerko, Peavy, Youk are the best talents on this team (along with Sale) and are past their prime. De Aza, Rios and Alexei are in their prime.



LOL
What team in a dog fight uses Olmedo and Indian August cast-offs?

What team(s) do you think is operating with the philosophy you expouse?

fram40
09-10-2012, 07:36 PM
I've heard scouts refer to him as "the next De Los Santos" except with more of a HoF guarantee.

weird. I overheard Kenny on his cell phone in the airport state exactly the same thing!

Tragg
09-11-2012, 01:25 AM
What team(s) do you think is operating with the philosophy you expouse?
Most
They draft and develop better than we have.

SOX ADDICT '73
09-11-2012, 02:13 AM
Was Humber's perfect game an indication of what we could expect from him going forward? In hindsight, OBVIOUSLY not.

That said, I sure wish Brett Myers wasn't hot garbage...

balke
09-11-2012, 11:12 PM
the Orioles started Nate McLouth


Hey, I liked McLouth. Why does he suck now? GG 24 hr 94 RBI season.

Baseball is such a weird sport.

asindc
09-12-2012, 09:08 AM
Most
They draft and develop better than we have.

Specific examples with specific players, please.

doublem23
09-12-2012, 09:24 AM
Most
They draft and develop better than we have.

Surely that's why the Sox have a better record than 2/3 of the rest of the Majors.

:rolleyes:

russ99
09-12-2012, 12:05 PM
Most. They draft and develop better than we have.

Specific examples with specific players, please.

I have to agree. Jerry's always had a low draft budget and been in lockstep with Bud with the slot, and players were often drafted based on signability more than talent, with Sale one of the few players that worked out with that approach. Also, our minor league system has ranked pretty low throughout the Kenny Williams era, showing the lack of focus/resources given to the farm.

I was disappointed in the Sox draft with the new (anti-Boras) regulations for this year's draft. Other former hard-slot teams opened up and drafted for talent thinking that the new draft rules takes care of those issues. The Astros are a good example, with previous ownership being worse than Jerry when it came to bonuses. They didn't play ball with Appel and Boras, but drafted and signed extremely well, and went lower on offers to the 3+ round draftees to give more to the 1-3 round draftees. I don't see why the Sox can't do the same.

Tragg
09-12-2012, 11:14 PM
Surely that's why the Sox have a better record than 2/3 of the rest of the Majors.

:rolleyes:
You're right. We draft and develop well. All the young talent on this team is proof...
:rolleyes:

Daver
09-12-2012, 11:57 PM
Also, our minor league system has ranked pretty low throughout the Kenny Williams era, showing the lack of focus/resources given to the farm.


The farm system was ranked among the best in baseball when Ken Williams was the director of minor league operations, and he was under the exact same constraints, or are you saying the budgetary constraints have gotten more severe?

asindc
09-13-2012, 09:24 AM
You're right. We draft and develop well. All the young talent on this team is proof...
:rolleyes:

You're right. This team has no talent. The first-place record on 9/13 is proof...
:rolleyes:

asindc
09-13-2012, 09:28 AM
I said we are squeezing everything we have out of the talent on hand. Not that they are untalented. AJ, Dunn, Konerko, Peavy, Youk are the best talents on this team (along with Sale) and are past their prime. De Aza, Rios and Alexei are in their prime.



LOL
What team in a dog fight uses Olmedo and Indian August cast-offs?

What team(s) do you think is operating with the philosophy you expouse?

Most
They draft and develop better than we have.

Specific examples with specific players, please.

I have to agree. Jerry's always had a low draft budget and been in lockstep with Bud with the slot, and players were often drafted based on signability more than talent, with Sale one of the few players that worked out with that approach. Also, our minor league system has ranked pretty low throughout the Kenny Williams era, showing the lack of focus/resources given to the farm.

I was disappointed in the Sox draft with the new (anti-Boras) regulations for this year's draft. Other former hard-slot teams opened up and drafted for talent thinking that the new draft rules takes care of those issues. The Astros are a good example, with previous ownership being worse than Jerry when it came to bonuses. They didn't play ball with Appel and Boras, but drafted and signed extremely well, and went lower on offers to the 3+ round draftees to give more to the 1-3 round draftees. I don't see why the Sox can't do the same.

Tragg suggested that no other team uses worn-down veterans in a playoff chase, but that they instead use young, inexpensive talent. I asked for specific examples of that. No one disputes that KW has been generally terrible at drafting and developing (I think mainly because his owner restricts him).

Lip Man 1
09-13-2012, 10:05 AM
Daver:

I don't know what the situation was like before Kenny became the G.M. but there has been a lot of circumstantial evidence and I have been told directly that ownership has inserted themselves into the drafting process at least in the past five years.

From what I've been told the scouting directors have been given recommendations on who to take. The belief is that the recommendations were based more on signability than on potential or ability.

The White Sox for years did fall in line with what Bud wanted when it came to slotting salary, that is a fact.

The Dave Wilder situation complicated matters and the Sox have also gone through at least two other farm directors in that time with Buddy Bell being the latest.

And the report that came out last year, Gonzo has quoted it on more than one occasion, ranked the Sox dead last on money spent on draftees over the past five years.

Because of what I've been told I can't pin all the blame on Kenny for the shape of the system...he has to take orders too.

Lip

TaylorStSox
09-13-2012, 05:13 PM
Daver:

I don't know what the situation was like before Kenny became the G.M. but there has been a lot of circumstantial evidence and I have been told directly that ownership has inserted themselves into the drafting process at least in the past five years.

From what I've been told the scouting directors have been given recommendations on who to take. The belief is that the recommendations were based more on signability than on potential or ability.

The White Sox for years did fall in line with what Bud wanted when it came to slotting salary, that is a fact.

The Dave Wilder situation complicated matters and the Sox have also gone through at least two other farm directors in that time with Buddy Bell being the latest.

And the report that came out last year, Gonzo has quoted it on more than one occasion, ranked the Sox dead last on money spent on draftees over the past five years.

Because of what I've been told I can't pin all the blame on Kenny for the shape of the system...he has to take orders too.

Lip
Good. Our approach to the draft has completely changed in that time. We're drafting on upside these days.

Lip Man 1
09-13-2012, 05:16 PM
Taylor:

That's because the rules have changed this year not in the previous ones. I was told there was tension in the room when ownership starting telling the scouting director who to take. It's not supposed to work that way.

You hire good people, pay them good wages and stay out of the way and let them do the job they were hired to do.

If they weren't capable why did ownership hire them in the first place?

Lip