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View Full Version : *Official Crapfest Postgame Thread


thomas35forever
08-28-2012, 09:41 PM
Yeah, that sucked.

soxnut1018
08-28-2012, 09:42 PM
Ugh.

LITTLE NELL
08-28-2012, 09:44 PM
We need to turn this around quick.

slavko
08-28-2012, 09:44 PM
Well sir, last year our White Sox would have laid right down, but these guys are different...Ahhhh, I'm ****ting ya.

OmahaSoxFan
08-28-2012, 09:44 PM
What a crappy game to watch tonight - sorry I wasted 2 hours and 40 minutes of my night watching that **** fest. Hoping the Sox can rebound and get a W tomorrow (not counting on anything with Axelrod starting for the Sox tomorrow :o:), but right now it looks like this team is back to slumping again - generally lousy pitching (walks will haunt :angry:), and even worse hitting...

Fingers crossed that Robin can fire the boys back up, and they come back and take these last two to build momentum for the series in Detroit.

Oh yeah, and Go Royals, its time that you treat the Tigers like you have been treating the Sox lately!

Frater Perdurabo
08-28-2012, 09:45 PM
The Sox are now 0-2 since I bought the $10 MLBtv subscription. I'm really hating that investment right now.

JB98
08-28-2012, 09:46 PM
The Sox are now 0-2 since I bought the $10 MLBtv subscription. I'm really hating that investment right now.

The Sox are now 0-2 since I paid my playoff invoice.

LITTLE NELL
08-28-2012, 09:46 PM
The Sox are now 0-2 since I bought the $10 MLBtv subscription. I'm really hating that investment right now.

Ditto.

all*star quentin
08-28-2012, 09:47 PM
Get some rest, boys, two more games against the Orioles. Split the series, I'll be watching.

Go Sox!

WLL1855
08-28-2012, 09:48 PM
What a godawful game.

Lew Ford? Lew ****ing Ford?

And no offense at all against the warm body the Orioles put on the mound.

Sweet Jesus, what is this world coming to?

tstrike2000
08-28-2012, 09:48 PM
Baltimore has a good team. If we fall behind Detroit, the Orioles and A's are right with us for the Wild Card spots.

aryzner
08-28-2012, 09:49 PM
This is the reason why I didn't and I don't watch the Sox when they're in Baltimore. Glad I missed this one. I won't be watching the next 2 either.

Hitmen77
08-28-2012, 09:49 PM
Tonight's loss wouldn't have been so bad (can't win 'em all) if we didn't throw away yesterday's game.

The Sox better turn things around for the last 5 games of this road trip or they could suddenly be in a heap of trouble.

Soxman219
08-28-2012, 09:50 PM
:puking:

That is all.

ChiSoxGal85
08-28-2012, 09:50 PM
:puking:

Hitmen77
08-28-2012, 09:52 PM
What a godawful game.

Lew Ford? Lew ****ing Ford?

And no offense at all against the warm body the Orioles put on the mound.

Sweet Jesus, what is this world coming to?

There always seems to be some lousy player who just kills the Sox but sucks against everyone else. Lew Ford is the new Nick Punto. I remember when Mark Teahen used to hit well against us when he was with KC.

Red Barchetta
08-28-2012, 09:53 PM
Must have been the ugly golf pants...

Soxman219
08-28-2012, 09:54 PM
Get some rest, boys, two more games against the Orioles. Split the series, I'll be watching.

Go Sox!

That's the spirit!:D:

Dan H
08-28-2012, 10:02 PM
Didn't look like they came ready to play. Sale was throwing temper tantrums for some reason in the second inning. Made another garbage pitcher look like a Cy Young contender. Expect bad things, very bad things.

Golden Sox
08-28-2012, 10:04 PM
The top of the 5th inning and the White Sox were losing 4-0. The White Sox got the first two guys on and Beckham was up. Why didn't he bunt and sacrifice those two runners? He didn't bunt and made another one of his patented outs. Last night I thought our manager lost the game when he didn't bring in Thornton to face the left handed hitter in the 8th inning. I don't know what Ventura was thinking tonight in that 5th inning. Beckham is our worse hitter. Most managers would of had him sacrifice in that situation.

CHISOXFAN13
08-28-2012, 10:09 PM
The top of the 5th inning and the White Sox were losing 4-0. The White Sox got the first two guys on and Beckham was up. Why didn't he bunt and sacrifice those two runners? He didn't bunt and made another one of his patented outs. Last night I thought our manager lost the game when he didn't bring in Thornton to face the left handed hitter in the 8th inning. I don't know what Ventura was thinking tonight in that 5th inning. Beckham is our worse hitter. Most managers would of had him sacrifice in that situation.

Wise struck out so I don't really get the angst, especially down 4-0.
No other manager in baseball is sacrificing down four runs either.

CoopaLoop
08-28-2012, 10:15 PM
Sale and Verlander were both obviously looking ahead to Matchup of the century.

PalehosePlanet
08-28-2012, 10:15 PM
Earlier in the year we were great on the road and terrible at home. That's come full circle now; this is our 5th straight road loss. For some reason we suddenly can't hit the ball on the road. That needs to change quick.

Meantime: Verlander is getting his ass kicked in KC, but Detroit still only trails by one.

Nelfox02
08-28-2012, 10:20 PM
IF the Royals can hang on and win tonight it takes a lot of the sting of this loss for me. going in to this game I figured we would be out of it still 2 games up with Sale and Verlander walking away with wins.......

trying to find something to be positive about, did not see anything good in the game. hopefully sale got this out of his system tonight because we will need a helluva start from him on Sunday.....

Go Royals

CoopaLoop
08-28-2012, 10:20 PM
Wise struck out so I don't really get the angst, especially down 4-0.
No other manager in baseball is sacrificing down four runs either.

Nothing is guaranteed to go down the same way if you change the scenario.

Beckham sucked the life out of the offense a few times tonight

Lip Man 1
08-28-2012, 10:25 PM
I guess the guys were still tired from the long rain delay Sunday...:rolleyes:

9-20...let me repeat that...9-20 combined against the Orioles, Tigers and Royals this season.

Great start to the most important road trip of the season...simply wonderful. :angry:

Lip

SCCWS
08-28-2012, 10:26 PM
The top of the 5th inning and the White Sox were losing 4-0. The White Sox got the first two guys on and Beckham was up. Why didn't he bunt and sacrifice those two runners? He didn't bunt and made another one of his patented outs. Last night I thought our manager lost the game when he didn't bring in Thornton to face the left handed hitter in the 8th inning. I don't know what Ventura was thinking tonight in that 5th inning. Beckham is our worse hitter. Most managers would of had him sacrifice in that situation.

Gordon flied out to left field. Even if he had bunted, Wise struck out and Youk grounded out. So the runs wouldn't have scored anyway. Now if Robin had called for a double steal earlier in the count, then Gordon would have had a sac fly and the Sox would have scored a run and avoided the dreaded shutout.

kittle42
08-28-2012, 10:38 PM
Gordon Beckham is ****ing terrible at the plate. Both TV and radio announcers were pointing out him missing hanging meatballs repeatedly.

As for this series, it's been as predictable as the up and down emotions of many people here.

Lip Man 1
08-28-2012, 10:42 PM
Hitmen:

I've always wondered when a poor hitter justs keeps unloading against the White Sox why:

1. The pitching pattern against him isn't changed.
2. Signs aren't changed (someone could be stealing them)
3. Said hitter isn't knocked on his .200 hitting ass.


10th time Sox have been shutout this season, Sox have shut out opponents eight times.

Lip

WisSoxFan
08-28-2012, 10:51 PM
The Sox are now 0-2 since I bought the $10 MLBtv subscription. I'm really hating that investment right now.

Thankfully I'm not the only one.

Brian26
08-28-2012, 10:51 PM
There always seems to be some lousy player who just kills the Sox but sucks against everyone else. Lew Ford is the new Nick Punto. I remember when Mark Teahen used to hit well against us when he was with KC.

If the Orioles bring up Mike Sweeney or Denny Hocking tomorrow, the Sox should just forfeit the season.

Crooked Number
08-28-2012, 10:53 PM
If you are fretting about recent events, then you really aren't paying close enough attention to this Sox team. We got swept by Detroit - Season's over. We got swept by the lowly Royals - Season's Over. We dropped the first two of a four game set in Baltimore - Season's Over?

Come on, let's have some perspective. Has this team not proved it's resiliency yet? They aren't going to win 100 games good, but they are streaky. When the going's good, watch out. When the going's bad, well, it doesn't really matter who the opponent is. However, when they do hit a skid, it is not prolonged. That is the important thing. They may look like absolute crap against the Bird's this week, but arrive in Detroit a completely different team.

The point: You have to temper your emotions with this club. I do agree that this is the right venue to vent and let out your frustrations, hell I do it too sometimes. But I have learned the beauty of cautious optimism. Be grateful that we are in first place on August 28th - enjoy it! This is a pennant race, it's going to be a bumpy ride! Go Sox!

WisSoxFan
08-28-2012, 10:59 PM
Earlier in the year we were great on the road and terrible at home. That's come full circle now; this is our 5th straight road loss. For some reason we suddenly can't hit the ball on the road. That needs to change quick.

Meantime: Verlander is getting his ass kicked in KC, but Detroit still only trails by one.

So the Sox are sucking at home and great on the road again. :) Sorry, just teasing. We all knew you meant that they've done a 180.

Jollyroger2
08-28-2012, 11:15 PM
If you are fretting about recent events, then you really aren't paying close enough attention to this Sox team. We got swept by Detroit - Season's over. We got swept by the lowly Royals - Season's Over. We dropped the first two of a four game set in Baltimore - Season's Over?

Come on, let's have some perspective. Has this team not proved it's resiliency yet? They aren't going to win 100 games good, but they are streaky. When the going's good, watch out. When the going's bad, well, it doesn't really matter who the opponent is. However, when they do hit a skid, it is not prolonged. That is the important thing. They may look like absolute crap against the Bird's this week, but arrive in Detroit a completely different team.

The point: You have to temper your emotions with this club. I do agree that this is the right venue to vent and let out your frustrations, hell I do it too sometimes. But I have learned the beauty of cautious optimism. Be grateful that we are in first place on August 28th - enjoy it! This is a pennant race, it's going to be a bumpy ride! Go Sox!

What some people see as resiliency gets blown out of the water when you throw in a word like consistency. Sure, win 5 of 7 from the Yankees...sweep Seattle...be excited. But go 2-6 vs Boston...or 1-5 vs Baltimore...or 4-8 or whatever they are vs. KC. Lose home series to the Astros and Cubs. Against Detroit, the main division rival, win just four of eleven.

If this team showed up in half the games they should have won this year, they'd have a comfortable division lead. But they never do. Each time they play well and people talk about how great they fight, how resilient they are, etc...they seem to always come back and underachieve and nobody knows what to think of them.

Awful effort in these first two games in Baltimore. Sweeping the M's was nice but it would be great if the Sox showed up in games like this road trip that are critical when it comes to the division and/or wild card.

TaylorStSox
08-28-2012, 11:23 PM
Hitmen:

I've always wondered when a poor hitter justs keeps unloading against the White Sox why:

1. The pitching pattern against him isn't changed.
2. Signs aren't changed (someone could be stealing them)
3. Said hitter isn't knocked on his .200 hitting ass.


10th time Sox have been shutout this season, Sox have shut out opponents eight times.

Lip

It's baseball. It's a long season and there a strange anomalies. I'm sure there's some team that Beckham hits hard. Their fans probably say, Beckham sucks against everyone but us. Seattle probably wonders why they can't be us.

chisoxfanatic
08-28-2012, 11:27 PM
If we make the playoffs, I don't want anything to do with Baltimore...I'd much rather play Texas or New York.

Crooked Number
08-28-2012, 11:38 PM
What some people see as resiliency gets blown out of the water when you throw in a word like consistency. Sure, win 5 of 7 from the Yankees...sweep Seattle...be excited. But go 2-6 vs Boston...or 1-5 vs Baltimore...or 4-8 or whatever they are vs. KC. Lose home series to the Astros and Cubs. Against Detroit, the main division rival, win just four of eleven.

If this team showed up in half the games they should have won this year, they'd have a comfortable division lead. But they never do. Each time they play well and people talk about how great they fight, how resilient they are, etc...they seem to always come back and underachieve and nobody knows what to think of them.

Awful effort in these first two games in Baltimore. Sweeping the M's was nice but it would be great if the Sox showed up in games like this road trip that are critical when it comes to the division and/or wild card.

Solid points, good post. I agree that they have a touch of the old Jekyll and Hyde syndrome. Not quite sure what the entire puzzle looks like yet for this club. They can rail off a 5 to 7 game win streak at anytime, against any set of teams. Hopefully, if they have one more streak left for next month, Det is one of the teams involved.

At the same time, to say they don't show up - I am not entirely sure I agree. Baseball is a very long season, and sometimes crappy teams can play a streak of 5 to 10 games every few months and look like world beaters. Hell the Indians did it for half a season, and to a lesser extent the Pirates, who have also cooled off considerably. Even the worse teams such as the Stros will be able to play at least a few games in a row decent enough to steal a series from a quality opponent. In a big enough sample size, in this case 162 games, a last place team has spurts of good baseball.

I am very interested to see how the rest of this road trip plays out. I have a feeling the team will bounce back. I would be truly surprised if they go into a tailspin here.

For some odd reason I am compelled to end this with "Just like Abner designed it." Haha that pisses my buddy off so much when Hawk says that one. I kinda like it. /random\

JB98
08-28-2012, 11:46 PM
What some people see as resiliency gets blown out of the water when you throw in a word like consistency. Sure, win 5 of 7 from the Yankees...sweep Seattle...be excited. But go 2-6 vs Boston...or 1-5 vs Baltimore...or 4-8 or whatever they are vs. KC. Lose home series to the Astros and Cubs. Against Detroit, the main division rival, win just four of eleven.

If this team showed up in half the games they should have won this year, they'd have a comfortable division lead. But they never do. Each time they play well and people talk about how great they fight, how resilient they are, etc...they seem to always come back and underachieve and nobody knows what to think of them.

Awful effort in these first two games in Baltimore. Sweeping the M's was nice but it would be great if the Sox showed up in games like this road trip that are critical when it comes to the division and/or wild card.

That's not a word I would associate with this White Sox team. They have holes in their roster like Swiss cheese yet they are on pace to finish with 90 wins. That would be a great season for the Sox no matter if that's enough to win the division or not.

Today could have been a lot worse than it was.

Two games up with 34 games to play > Two games up with 35 games to play.

Let's play better tomorrow.

Bob Roarman
08-28-2012, 11:47 PM
If people keep saying they believe this will come down to the wire, why does anything happening right now surprise us?

JB98
08-28-2012, 11:50 PM
If people keep saying they believe this will come down to the wire, why does anything happening right now surprise us?

I'm one of the people who thinks it will come down to the wire, and I'm not surprised the Sox have lost two in a row to Baltimore.

If people are expecting or hoping the Sox will run away and hide, I believe they are in for a rough month of September.

The Sox can win this thing, but it's going to be nerve-wracking.

russ99
08-29-2012, 12:01 AM
Baltimore, KC and the Twins kill us every year. I hope this last month and a half is different, but not so far.

That Detroit series is going to be super important.

DrCrawdad
08-29-2012, 12:04 AM
I'm one of the people who thinks it will come down to the wire, and I'm not surprised the Sox have lost two in a row to Baltimore.

If people are expecting or hoping the Sox to run away and hide, I believe they are in for a rough month of September.

The Sox can win this thing, but it's going to be nerve-wracking.

Well said.

Verlander had a worse line tonight than Sale. Let's hope he brings that same game against the Sox.

Lip Man 1
08-29-2012, 01:18 AM
Jolly:

That's about as good a post as I've ever seen to try to explain this schizoid franchise.

It's been happening for years and is partly why they pissed away golden chances to make the post season in 2003, 2006 and 2010... because they play "down" to their competition. Those failures (and there's no other way to put it) are still very fresh in the fan's memories.

I honestly used to think it was because of Ozzie...but Ozzie isn't around anymore is he? Yet the problem remains.

They've got 35 games left to "fix" this issue as JB suggested. 15 of those games are against teams they have gone 9-20 against so far this season.

It's all up to them but if past is prologue, they could be in serious trouble.

We'll see.

Lip

Lip Man 1
08-29-2012, 01:26 AM
In his post mortum tonight on this crapfest, Gonzo called Lew Ford a "retread..."

:D:

I laughed at that one.

Lip

JB98
08-29-2012, 01:37 AM
Jolly:

That's about as good a post as I've ever seen to try to explain this schizoid franchise.

It's been happening for years and is partly why they pissed away golden chances to make the post season in 2003, 2006 and 2010... because they play "down" to their competition. Those failures (and there's no other way to put it) are still very fresh in the fan's memories.

I honestly used to think it was because of Ozzie...but Ozzie isn't around anymore is he? Yet the problem remains.

They've got 35 games left to "fix" this issue as JB suggested. 15 of those games are against teams they have gone 9-20 against so far this season.

It's all up to them but if past is prologue, they could be in serious trouble.

We'll see.

Lip

Here's the problem I have with this argument.

Fact: Minnesota, Cleveland, Toronto, Seattle and the Cubs are losing teams.
Fact: The White Sox are a combined 35-14 against those five teams. That's a .714 winning percentage.

If the Sox have a habit of playing to the level of their competition, how come they have steamrolled those five lousy clubs?

If they were really playing "down to the competition," wouldn't they have problems with all or at least most sub-.500 clubs? Kansas City is the only one they are really having trouble beating. Yeah, they are having problems with the Orioles, but Baltimore is good now. Just check the AL East standings.

See, I don't think the Sox are playing down to their competition. I think they are a good team, but a flawed team. The flaws in the roster make them inconsistent. When they are going good, they beat every team in their path -- even Texas and the Yankees. When they are playing poorly, they can lose to literally anybody -- even Houston. We've seen examples of both those things throughout the season.

Fortunately, their good streaks have lasted longer than their bad streaks, and that's why they are in front in the division.

I don't think it's a matter of needing more "fire and passion" against the lesser teams or anything like that. They obviously haven't taken the Twins or the Mariners lightly.

If the Sox lose games to teams below them in the standings, well, I think it's just because they are a flawed team. I don't know that it needs to be more complicated than that.They are a good club playing at or near their potential. But they aren't the kind of ballclub that is going to win 95-100 and run away in the division. I don't think it's fair for any of us to expect that.

Falstaff
08-29-2012, 01:49 AM
Well said.

Verlander had a worse line tonight than Sale. Let's hope he brings that same game against the Sox.

Yeah I have been biting my tongue for a while regarding the way they are handling Chris Sale workload lately. It's one thing to let the guy be an anchor in your rotation and all that, and he has thrived following occasions of extra rest. We keep hearing where he will be getting a few extra days off here and there to preserve his arm thru October. But there have been a bunch of starts where Sale is left in for 109 pitches or even more IIRC. I can think of at least 4 games he went well beyond 100 pitches, 2 since ASG. Tonite he was gassed.

Maybe that routine takes too big of a toll at this point in his development?

If I still had direct line to Coop I'd be giving the old wassup? Just sayin.

guillensdisciple
08-29-2012, 02:11 AM
Here's the problem I have with this argument.

Fact: Minnesota, Cleveland, Toronto, Seattle and the Cubs are losing teams.
Fact: The White Sox are a combined 35-14 against those five teams. That's a .714 winning percentage.

If the Sox have a habit of playing to the level of their competition, how come they have steamrolled those five lousy clubs?

If they were really playing "down to the competition," wouldn't they have problems with all or at least most sub-.500 clubs? Kansas City is the only one they are really having trouble beating. Yeah, they are having problems with the Orioles, but Baltimore is good now. Just check the AL East standings.

See, I don't think the Sox are playing down to their competition. I think they are a good team, but a flawed team. The flaws in the roster make them inconsistent. When they are going good, they beat every team in their path -- even Texas and the Yankees. When they are playing poorly, they can lose to literally anybody -- even Houston. We've seen examples of both those things throughout the season.

Fortunately, their good streaks have lasted longer than their bad streaks, and that's why they are in front in the division.

I don't think it's a matter of needing more "fire and passion" against the lesser teams or anything like that. They obviously haven't taken the Twins or the Mariners lightly.

If the Sox lose games to teams below them in the standings, well, I think it's just because they are a flawed team. I don't know that it needs to be more complicated than that.They are a good club playing at or near their potential. But they aren't the kind of ballclub that is going to win 95-100 and run away in the division. I don't think it's fair for any of us to expect that.

You have presented this very reasonable point multiple times, LIP does not respond to it. Your point is obviously valid, and this is baseball. Every team does this, and yes every winning team does this.

TDog
08-29-2012, 02:14 AM
In his post mortum tonight on this crapfest, Gonzo called Lew Ford a "retread..."

:D:

I laughed at that one.

Lip

Wouldn't you call Dewayne Wise a retread? I know you called you more insulting things three years ago. Wise has been released by the Tigers, Yankees, Marlins and Blue Jays. A couple more teams (including the White Sox) have let him go at the end of his contract. Yet, he has done more to help the White Sox win this year than Lew Ford has contributed to the White Sox losing.

The Orioles outplayed the White Sox Monday and Tuesday. The White Sox didn't play down to them. They are playing great baseball. They have the same record as the White Sox. They are one of the two wild card leaders. They are only 3.5 games behind the Yankees, in second place in the AL East. The Orioles are playing better baseball than the Yankees right now and have a shot at winning the East.

Monday night, the White Sox probably would have won, just as the Mariners should have won Sunday. Tonight, Sale had serious control issues, especially serious considering how good his control has been in most games this year. He can usually fall behind hitters and the them out, but tonight, from the second inning on he seemed unable to many strikes that weren't pretty much center cut. With a runner on third and two outs, he walked the bases loaded and threw a fat pitch to Markakis, and that was the ballgame considering the stuff that Tillman had. Sometimes I wish the Sox had more line drives in their lineup even if it meant giving up a few of the big flies, but that has to do with the composition of the team, not their inability to put "garbage teams" like the Orioles in their place.

CoopaLoop
08-29-2012, 03:11 AM
15 games left with teams we are 9-20 against?

Regression to the mean will get us a division championship.

October26
08-29-2012, 09:21 AM
If we make the playoffs, I don't want anything to do with Baltimore...I'd much rather play Texas or New York.

I agree. Sale and the Sox had a bad night last night and it seems like the Sox do not match up well against the Orioles. I was surprised to see on my MLB app that the Sox and O's have identical 71 win - 57 loss records. This is no pushover Orioles team.

I'll be tuning in again tonight and hoping for a White Sox winner. Love this team, always and forever...GO SOX!

amsteel
08-29-2012, 09:24 AM
I hope when Robin took them to Chuck E Cheese after the game, they weren't able to get any toppings on their pizza.

TaylorStSox
08-29-2012, 10:07 AM
I don't even know what "fire and passion" mean in baseball. You swing harder, you strike out more. You throw harder, you flatten out and get rocked. It's not as if nobody was trying yesterday. It's not as if they didn't care.

Sure, we're a flawed team. I've never seen a baseball team that wasn't flawed. 9 times out of 10 baseball comes down to a few things. A. How good is your pitching that day? B. How good is your defense? C. How many hitters do you have going at the same time. Chris Sale wasn't very good yesterday and we lost, that's baseball. Even in the Seattle series our starting pitching wasn't very good. Luckily, Seattle's pitchers were a little worse and their defense was awful. Our starters look a little worn down. They're not getting a break, so hopefully they find a second wind.

*edit*
I blame Lip for refusing to acknowledge that Baltimore's a pretty good team. We have the same record and they play in a better division.

KempersRS
08-29-2012, 10:12 AM
You have presented this very reasonable point multiple times, LIP does not respond to it. Your point is obviously valid, and this is baseball. Every team does this, and yes every winning team does this.

Yeah, do not try to reason with the guy, you will get nowhere. He will cherry pick numbers all day and assure you that it is because this team is SO MENTALLY WEAK. The Sox have won 59% of their games against below .500 teams on the year. A .59 win percentage in this sport is GOOD. There is nothing to suggest they play down to their competition (and of the 3 teams that have been selected in this case, 2 of them are well over .500). Now if you pick 3 teams they have done ****ty against this year, then yes they look ****ty.

In fact, did you know, if you select any team's performance against the opponents they have their worst record against, they would look bad? Crazy, right?

They're an above average team with flaws. They're going to lose plenty of games and it doesn't mean anyone has to pull their head out of their ass, they aren't trying, they don't have a killer instinct, or that there is some mythical force holding them back.

This is what happens when people get so bitter about the advanced stats movement that they want to prove that baseball is just about emotion, momentum, fortitude, toughness, etc. Is there something to be said about chemistry for a team? Yeah, somewhat. You can't have a poisonous locker room where guys don't even want to show up. Does that mean every one loss out of 162 is some kind of sign of failed philosophy, or lack of coaching, or lack of effort? Yeah, probably not.

If Lip were a fan of the Tigers it would be:

1-5 against the Mariners, SHOCKING. The mighty Chone Figgins hits .375 against us this season while you don't see the White Sox having any trouble with him. This coaching staff needs to wake up and realize it's time to change the strategy here. Alex Liddi has 3 homers all year, TWO OF THEM AGAINST THE TIGERS.

If he were a fan of the Yankees he would point out how they've been crappy in one-run games and the team doesn't have guts. You could go through every team and find something to whine about.

This is the same guy who complains every year if their spring training record is below .500 that the team is not mentally prepared for the season. Don't take the bait.

slavko
08-29-2012, 10:32 AM
The Sox can win this thing, but it's going to be nerve-wracking.

Nerve-wracking is not necessarily a bad thing. The remedy is to give up now. That is a bad thing. :cool:

Bucky F. Dent
08-29-2012, 10:35 AM
Must have been the ugly golf pants...


Yeah - they need to kill that "tradition" immediately.

That sucked out loud. Time to turn it around boys!!!!!

kittle42
08-29-2012, 10:36 AM
You have presented this very reasonable point multiple times, LIP does not respond to it. Your point is obviously valid, and this is baseball. Every team does this, and yes every winning team does this.

The problem is that a good number of people here *only* pay attention to the Sox (I am not criticizing that - we all have hobbies), and forget that what the Sox do can only be judged relative to what other teams in baseball do. So when people yammer on about losing to sub-.500 teams, or not driving in people from third with less than two outs, they do it because all they watch or pay attention to is the Sox. A quick 30-second trip to baseball-reference sets them straight, but they don't care much about that.

kittle42
08-29-2012, 10:38 AM
This is what happens when people get so bitter about the advanced stats movement that they want to prove that baseball is just about emotion, momentum, fortitude, toughness, etc. Is there something to be said about chemistry for a team? Yeah, somewhat. You can't have a poisonous locker room where guys don't even want to show up. Does that mean every one loss out of 162 is some kind of sign of failed philosophy, or lack of coaching, or lack of effort? Yeah, probably not.

If Lip were a fan of the Tigers it would be:

1-5 against the Mariners, SHOCKING. The mighty Chone Figgins hits .375 against us this season while you don't see the White Sox having any trouble with him. This coaching staff needs to wake up and realize it's time to change the strategy here. Alex Liddi has 3 homers all year, TWO OF THEM AGAINST THE TIGERS.

If he were a fan of the Yankees he would point out how they've been crappy in one-run games and the team doesn't have guts. You could go through every team and find something to whine about.

This is the same guy who complains every year if their spring training record is below .500 that the team is not mentally prepared for the season. Don't take the bait.

A very nice, accurate criticism of Lip's M.O.

Harry Potter
08-29-2012, 10:47 AM
Here's the problem I have with this argument.

Fact: Minnesota, Cleveland, Toronto, Seattle and the Cubs are losing teams.
Fact: The White Sox are a combined 35-14 against those five teams. That's a .714 winning percentage.

If the Sox have a habit of playing to the level of their competition, how come they have steamrolled those five lousy clubs?

If they were really playing "down to the competition," wouldn't they have problems with all or at least most sub-.500 clubs? Kansas City is the only one they are really having trouble beating. Yeah, they are having problems with the Orioles, but Baltimore is good now. Just check the AL East standings.

See, I don't think the Sox are playing down to their competition. I think they are a good team, but a flawed team. The flaws in the roster make them inconsistent. When they are going good, they beat every team in their path -- even Texas and the Yankees. When they are playing poorly, they can lose to literally anybody -- even Houston. We've seen examples of both those things throughout the season.

Fortunately, their good streaks have lasted longer than their bad streaks, and that's why they are in front in the division.

I don't think it's a matter of needing more "fire and passion" against the lesser teams or anything like that. They obviously haven't taken the Twins or the Mariners lightly.

If the Sox lose games to teams below them in the standings, well, I think it's just because they are a flawed team. I don't know that it needs to be more complicated than that.They are a good club playing at or near their potential. But they aren't the kind of ballclub that is going to win 95-100 and run away in the division. I don't think it's fair for any of us to expect that.

Post of the Year. Very well said JB :tiphat:

As other have pointed out, it's comical and sad how Lip won't acknowledge these facts. Perhaps he has his own agenda.

The Immigrant
08-29-2012, 11:05 AM
I am enjoying the turn this thread has taken. Makes it a little easier to stomach last night's loss.

aryzner
08-29-2012, 11:17 AM
This thread has turned into a reasonable baseball discussion and that is awesome.

Did last night suck for the Sox? Yes it did. But it sucked for multiple other teams last night who were pitching their aces, including the Tigers.

Strasburg
Sale
Verlander
Weaver (somewhat... and they ended up winning anyway)

All 4 of those aces got tagged for a good amount of runs last night. It happens in baseball.

The bad news is that the Sox lost. The good news is so did their division rival.

We've got a long month ahead of us, folks. Tensions on this board will be at an all-time high for this season. Prepare yourselves!

doublem23
08-29-2012, 11:34 AM
We've got a long month ahead of us, folks. Tensions on this board will be at an all-time high for this season. Prepare yourselves!

You just have to try and remind yourself what you would have said had, in March, someone told you that the Sox, not only would be playing meaningful games into September, but would be in 1st place.

As frustrating and inconsistent as they can be sometimes, it's hard to be too upset with a team that has wildly exceeded expectations.

DrCrawdad
08-29-2012, 11:35 AM
Sorry if I has been mentioned already but WSI and Lip get a shout out in Mark Gonzales game recap. Kudos!

ChiSoxGal85
08-29-2012, 11:39 AM
This thread has turned into a reasonable baseball discussion and that is awesome.

Did last night suck for the Sox? Yes it did. But it sucked for multiple other teams last night who were pitching their aces, including the Tigers.

Strasburg
Sale
Verlander
Weaver (somewhat... and they ended up winning anyway)

All 4 of those aces got tagged for a good amount of runs last night. It happens in baseball.

The bad news is that the Sox lost. The good news is so did their division rival.

We've got a long month ahead of us, folks. Tensions on this board will be at an all-time high for this season. Prepare yourselves!
:nod:

I thought it really strange that a number of Cy Young candidates had bad games last night.

The best news is that the Tigers lost too. And hopefully the Sox will play a better game tonight.

aryzner
08-29-2012, 11:52 AM
You just have to try and remind yourself what you would have said had, in March, someone told you that the Sox, not only would be playing meaningful games into September, but would be in 1st place.

As frustrating and inconsistent as they can be sometimes, it's hard to be too upset with a team that has wildly exceeded expectations.

I would have called you crazy, that's what I would have done.

This has been a great season to be a Sox fan. People are freaking out because as unexpected as this is, now that they're this far, we want the Sox to see it through.

I'm guilty of freaking out at times, too. You should have heard me in front of my TV when I watched the Sox blow that 5 run lead against Seattle. Even though they ended up winning, I was still upset afterwards.

DeadMoney
08-29-2012, 11:54 AM
This thread has turned into a reasonable baseball discussion and that is awesome.

Did last night suck for the Sox? Yes it did. But it sucked for multiple other teams last night who were pitching their aces, including the Tigers.

Strasburg
Sale
Verlander
Weaver (somewhat... and they ended up winning anyway)

All 4 of those aces got tagged for a good amount of runs last night. It happens in baseball.

The bad news is that the Sox lost. The good news is so did their division rival.

We've got a long month ahead of us, folks. Tensions on this board will be at an all-time high for this season. Prepare yourselves!

Interestingly enough, all 4 of those teams traveled either Sunday or Monday. This is why they're called the dog days of summer/August. Plus, I'm also sure it didn't help the past couple of days that the Sox played a long rain-delayed game on Sunday (thus getting into Baltimore a bit later because of it).

For some reason, going in to last night I had a bad feeling. Today, I'm a bit more optimistic about things. Not sure why, but I just didn't feel like last night was a good night for a bounce-back for the team.

And last, I hate comparing things to 2005, but the Sox lost 7-in-a-row in mid-August '05. Slumps happen... even to World Series winning teams.

kittle42
08-29-2012, 12:11 PM
I would have called you crazy, that's what I would have done.

This has been a great season to be a Sox fan. People are freaking out because as unexpected as this is, now that they're this far, we want the Sox to see it through.

I'm guilty of freaking out at times, too. You should have heard me in front of my TV when I watched the Sox blow that 5 run lead against Seattle. Even though they ended up winning, I was still upset afterwards.

I was one of the people who said trade everybody - this season was a wash. I'm ecstatic the Sox are where they are now. But the mindset of the fan changes to meet new expectations. At this point, we'll mostly be devastated if the Sox don't make the playoffs (though maybe we'll step back from that and end up agreeing with PK's preseason comment that the Sox did not need to make the playoffs to have a successful season).

Lip Man 1
08-29-2012, 12:59 PM
To Guillen, Taylor and Kemper:

Last night after this crapfest my wife and I watched two hours of season eight of House M.D.

Excuse the **** out of me if I decided not to stick around to try to score debating points with you. Shame on me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Today Wednesday, I got up at 10AM MST and went through my morning routine which starts with reading the Chicago Sun Times and Tribune, ESPN. com, Kentucky Sports Radio and the Lexington Herald-Leader.

I get to WSI last on my list.

I hope that explanation satisfies you, I sincerely will try to never let that happen again!

Now that you are done (I assume) with the holier than thou attitude, I'll try to respond.

JB as usual is a font of reason....if you were looking at say half the season remaining. You don't...those teams that I "cherry picked" which could in fact cost the Sox another ****ing chance at the post season, play them 15 more times in the remaining 35 games. (and 17 of the last 37)

That's 43% of the Sox remaining games against teams that they 'happen' to be 9-20 against. That's a win percentage of 31%. If that rate continues the Sox will be golfing on October 4th.

Playing badly against those clubs, who they happen to have to play a lot against down the stretch, will cost them the chance to win the division. Seems pretty simple to me. The fact that the Sox dominated Seattle means nothing because they don't play Seattle anymore. To paraphrase Hawk, "don't tell me who you play...tell me WHEN you play them."

They have a chance to make up some of those games because they play Cleveland and Minnesota 12 more times and they have played very well against them this season. The difference though is neither Cleveland nor Minnesota are right behind them in the standings. Detroit is...the same Detroit who has won seven of the last nine meetings. And who (granted) on paper, has a much easier final 13 games to the season.

I don't mind you taking shots at me, that's fine. What I do mind is you making assumptions that because I didn't respond ON YOUR TIMETABLE that I have certain character flaws. That line of thinking is total bull****.

I WANT the Sox to win this ****ing thing BECAUSE they were picked to lose 90 games, it would be a tremendous accomplishment. But the facts also show we've been down this road before...2003, 2006, 2010.

How did those stretch runs turn out? Like my late father used to tell me time and time again, "this team can't stand prosperity..."

Lip

JB98
08-29-2012, 01:22 PM
To Guillen, Taylor and Kemper:

Last night after this crapfest my wife and I watched two hours of season eight of House M.D.

Excuse the **** out of me if I decided not to stick around to try to score debating points with you. Shame on me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Today Wednesday, I got up at 10AM MST and went through my morning routine which starts with reading the Chicago Sun Times and Tribune, ESPN. com, Kentucky Sports Radio and the Lexington Herald-Leader.

I get to WSI last on my list.

I hope that explanation satisfies you, I sincerely will try to never let that happen again!

Now that you are done (I assume) with the holier than thou attitude, I'll try to respond.

JB as usual is a font of reason....if you were looking at say half the season remaining. You don't...those teams that I "cherry picked" which could in fact cost the Sox another ****ing chance at the post season, play them 15 more times in the remaining 35 games. (and 17 of the last 37)

That's 43% of the Sox remaining games against teams that they 'happen' to be 9-20 against. That's a win percentage of 31%. If that rate continues the Sox will be golfing on October 4th.

Playing badly against those clubs, who they happen to have to play a lot against down the stretch, will cost them the chance to win the division. Seems pretty simple to me. The fact that the Sox dominated Seattle means nothing because they don't play Seattle anymore.

They have a chance to make up some of those games because they play Cleveland and Minnesota 12 more times and they have played very well against them this season. The difference though is neither Cleveland nor Minnesota are right behind them in the standings. Detroit is...the same Detroit who has won seven of the last nine meetings.

I don't mind you taking shots at me, that's fine. What I do mind is you making assumptions that because I didn't respond ON YOUR TIMETABLE that I have certain character flaws. That line of thinking is total bull****.

I WANT the Sox to win this ****ing thing BECAUSE they were picked to lose 90 games, it would be a tremendous accomplishment. But the facts also show we've been down this road before...2003, 2006, 2010.

How did those stretch runs turn out? Like my late father used to tell me time and time again, "this team can't stand prosperity..."

Lip

Lip, you know I respect your knowledge of Sox history. You know as much about the history of the franchise as anybody on this board, but I just don't think past failures mean much for this year. Even 2010 doesn't matter much, because 16 of the players currently on our 25-man were not here two years ago. Not to mention, we have a different manager and a different coaching staff. If the Sox blow this thing, it's not going to be because of the scars of past failures. We as fans carry those scars. The players really don't.

As far as the remaining schedule, you can frame it many ways. The last 10 ballgames of the season are against Cleveland and Tampa Bay. The Sox have a combined record of 11-4 against those two clubs. If it comes down to those last 10 days, as many people including me believe it will, that could be considered an advantage for the Sox.

You look at Detroit, the Sox were 4-4 through the first eight games against them this year. Then, they played a bad series at the end of a long road trip in July and got their asses kicked. That might have been a case of the schedule jumping up and biting the Sox. I'm not convinced there is any sort of mental block about playing the Tigers. I suspect the Sox will struggle in Detroit -- the Tigers are good at home and I won't be alarmed if we only win one out of three. But I do think the Sox can beat the Tigers in Chicago, and four of the remaining seven meetings are at USCF. The Sox are 3-2 at home against Detroit this year.

Baltimore, I think the Sox have caught them at bad times. The Orioles got off to a 19-9 start this year. When did the Sox play them? In April. Right now, Baltimore is 16-6 in its last 22. The Orioles are on a roll, and we are having trouble stopping them, unfortunately. Baltimore is a good club that is playing well, and they've kicked our asses the last two nights. Give credit where credit is due.

The Kansas City stuff is baffling for all involved, and the Sox looked like a frustrated team last time they played the Royals. You just have to hope the Sox can get that problem figured out for the six remaining meetings, and you have to hope Kansas City can give Detroit fits, too. It was encouraging to see the Royals win a game that Verlander started last night.

Lip Man 1
08-29-2012, 01:31 PM
JB:

The respect is mutual, I sincerely mean that (no teal...) You do have a realistic look at things and that's welcome.

I also can't disagree a lot with your comment about fans carrying the burden of past failures more than players, staff etc. but that doesn't mean players, coaches etc who still remain on the team from those years are completely immune to it.

It can have an impact, you hope it doesn't but I can't say with 100% confidence that it doesn't with them, those guys are human. And from an organizational standpoint another choke job down the stretch after those I've already mentioned in the past 10 seasons makes it that much harder to get fans to buy off season tickets for next year. This franchise NEEDS, badly needs to make the postseason this year to reverse some trends from a fan standpoint that have been heading south the past few years.

I was angered more than anything by some remarks that because I didn't comment last night that implied something about me. That pissed me off frankly. Making assumptions of that nature is asinine.

Let's hope the Sox pull their heads out their asses the rest of this week and can win two or three of the final games, that could make everything moot.

Lip

JB98
08-29-2012, 01:34 PM
I am enjoying the turn this thread has taken. Makes it a little easier to stomach last night's loss.

I'm just trying to get people out of this belief that the Sox are somehow mental midgets because they've dropped some games to lesser teams.

****, the Sox are playing a good Baltimore club right now, and we still have a handful of posters bringing up losses to Houston that happened two months ago.

Let me drop this other nugget in:
Detroit's record against sub.-500 teams: 33-28 .541
Sox record against sub.-500 teams: 44-31 .587

If the Sox play down to their competition, so do the Tigers.

JB98
08-29-2012, 01:41 PM
JB:

The respect is mutual, I sincerely mean that (no teal...) You do have a realistic look at things and that's welcome.

I also can't disagree a lot with your comment about fans carrying the burden of past failures more than players, staff etc. but that doesn't mean players, coaches etc who still remain on the team from those years are completely immune to it.

It can have an impact, you hope it doesn't but I can't say with 100% confidence that it doesn't with them, those guys are human. And from an organizational standpoint another choke job down the stretch after those I've already mentioned in the past 10 seasons makes it that much harder to get fans to buy off season tickets for next year. This franchise NEEDS, badly needs to make the postseason this year to reverse some trends from a fan standpoint that have been heading south the past few years.

I was angered more than anything by some remarks that because I didn't comment last night that implied something about me. That pissed me off frankly. Making assumptions of that nature is asinine.

Let's hope the Sox pull their heads out their asses the rest of this week and can win two or three of the final games, that could make everything moot.

Lip

And I don't blame you for that. Personal attacks are unnecessary in this discussion.

I do agree with your comments about the organization needing to make the postseason this year. The malaise of 2011 did a lot of damage to the White Sox, and it's reflected in the decline in the team's season-ticket base. A surprise trip to the playoffs this year would help some ills. The Sox have been in first place most of the summer. A great opportunity sits before them as we head into September, and it would be a shame if they fail to take advantage.

Lip Man 1
08-29-2012, 01:43 PM
JB:

Just for the record, since the start of the 2008 season the Sox are 17-22 against Baltimore.

The O's were miserable the previous four years in this time frame. Not trying to be sarcastic but did the Sox catch them when they were "hot" those years too?

How about the record against Kansas City the past few years...I don't have it off the top of my head but aren't the Sox something like 9-19?

All teams lose games to bad teams and lousy pitchers, when the Sox do it, my impression is (and this is simply my impression) that it seems to cost them dearly, more so than other clubs because, well those clubs actually still seem to get to the postseason despite losing those games.

The Sox sit at home...and make excuses.

Lip

JB98
08-29-2012, 01:54 PM
JB:

Just for the record, since the start of the 2008 season the Sox are 17-22 against Baltimore.

The O's were miserable the previous four years in this time frame. Not trying to be sarcastic but did the Sox catch them when they were "hot" those years too?

How about the record against Kansas City the past few years...I don't have it off the top of my head but aren't the Sox something like 9-19?

All teams lose games to bad teams and lousy pitchers, when the Sox do it, my impression is (and this is simply my impression) that it seems to cost them dearly, more so than other clubs because, well those clubs actually still seem to get to the postseason despite losing those games.

The Sox sit at home...and make excuses.

Lip

The Sox played basically .500 baseball every year from 2008-11 against the Orioles. They were 16-17 in that time frame. Obviously, you'd like to see better, but .500 is not a disastrous record by any means.

This year, they are 1-5 against Baltimore. This is the first season they've been dominated by the Orioles in quite some time, and yes, the Sox have caught them at the wrong times this year.

I don't know what the deal is with Kansas City. As stated throughout the thread, that is the one bad club the Sox consistently have problems with for whatever reason.

asindc
08-29-2012, 01:56 PM
Well, I read this thread early this morning before turning to work. It has unfolded just as I suspected. Bottom line is this for me: I am glad that I'm rooting for the team 2 games up in the standings with its ace having been rocked last night by a good and hot team, rather than rooting for a team 2 games down in the standings with its ace having been rocked last night by a mediocre team. Go Go Sox.

SoxandtheCityTee
08-29-2012, 01:56 PM
JB:

I was angered more than anything by some remarks that because I didn't comment last night that implied something about me. That pissed me off frankly. Making assumptions of that nature is asinine.

I know what you mean. Leaving a message board because you have something else you want or need to do -- or just because you feel like it, for God's sake -- is not like a guest standing up in the middle of a dinner party and walking out of the host's house without a word. People like to point out that the interwebs are so different from real life in terms of social conventions, but then occasionally you'll see someone act like if you don't stay online long enough to try to refute everything they say, or you stay online but you stop arguing with them because it's a waste of your time, you're like a lawyer who's walked out in the middle of a trial and conceded a judgment by default. It's silly.

kittle42
08-29-2012, 01:58 PM
All teams lose games to bad teams and lousy pitchers, when the Sox do it, my impression is (and this is simply my impression) that it seems to cost them dearly, more so than other clubs because, well those clubs actually still seem to get to the postseason despite losing those games.

The Sox sit at home...and make excuses.

Hence the problem, Lip, you don't follow those teams enough to know whether losses to crap teams end their postseason dreams. You make it sound like it only happens to the Sox without any basis for that because there is no analysis of the Sox' performance vs. that of other sometimes-playoff franchises.

Hitmen77
08-29-2012, 02:35 PM
You just have to try and remind yourself what you would have said had, in March, someone told you that the Sox, not only would be playing meaningful games into September, but would be in 1st place.

As frustrating and inconsistent as they can be sometimes, it's hard to be too upset with a team that has wildly exceeded expectations.

I was one of the people who said trade everybody - this season was a wash. I'm ecstatic the Sox are where they are now. But the mindset of the fan changes to meet new expectations. At this point, we'll mostly be devastated if the Sox don't make the playoffs (though maybe we'll step back from that and end up agreeing with PK's preseason comment that the Sox did not need to make the playoffs to have a successful season).

I agree that this team has done better than my expectations. This has been a great ride so far.

But, I'm not going to be that happy if they end up missing the playoffs. IMO, this year is likely a narrow window for the Sox to succeed. I could very well be totally wrong about this (and I often am). But, I think this team needs to win now because next year will see AJ, Peavy, Youkilis possibly all gone and Myers and Liriano probably aren't coming back either. You never know, right? Maybe KW puts together another pennant contender next year. But I still feel like this is the Sox's golden opportunity before this window slams shut.

I think if the Sox can go deep into the playoffs this year, they'll get an infusion of revenue from the jump in season ticket sales and KW will have more of a budget to work with for 2013.

I also think this is a great opportunity for the Sox to kick the Cubs while they're down in terms of competing in the Chicago market. They can wait for Theo to spin Dempster, Garza, and Soriano into pennant gold 3 years down the road while the Sox are playing well into October this year.

Just my :twocents:

Lip Man 1
08-29-2012, 02:44 PM
Kittle:

A very valid point (as you continue to remind me) so after this season I'm going to write a long column focusing on the three areas that I feel cost the Sox playoff spots (in a general sense, not necessarily every item every year) in 2003, 2006, 2010 and possibly 2012.

As in no particular order:

1. Losing more games to the three worst teams in the league than the clubs who went to the postseason in each year.

2. Injuries (the Sox say they've lost fewer games to the IR than any team in baseball over the past 10 years and that's true - but when they do get injuries it finishes them, (i.e. playoffs 2000, 2001, 2004, 2007, 2010 possibly 2012) Many say it's because the Sox have no depth and can't survive them because of a crap farm system.

3. The trend (it's no longer a fluke) of the Sox to play worse from a win percentage standpoint in the "second half" of the season regardless of your definition of "second half" as in games 1-81 and 82-162 or before the All Star break compared to afterwards.

I've already started doing some preliminary research and the numbers will surprise you.

Lip

SI1020
08-29-2012, 02:45 PM
I agree that this team has done better than my expectations. This has been a great ride so far.

But, I'm not going to be that happy if they end up missing the playoffs. IMO, this year is likely a narrow window for the Sox to succeed. I could very well be totally wrong about this (and I often am). But, I think this team needs to win now because next year will see AJ, Peavy, Youkilis possibly all gone and Myers and Liriano probably aren't coming back either. You never know, right? Maybe KW puts together another pennant contender next year. But I still feel like this is the Sox's golden opportunity before this window slams shut.

I think if the Sox can go deep into the playoffs this year, they'll get an infusion of revenue from the jump in season ticket sales and KW will have more of a budget to work with for 2013.

I also think this is a great opportunity for the Sox to kick the Cubs while they're down in terms of competing in the Chicago market. They can wait for Theo to spin Dempster, Garza, and Soriano into pennant gold 3 years down the road while the Sox are playing well into October this year.

Just my :twocents: I agree.

kittle42
08-29-2012, 02:47 PM
Kittle:

A very valid point (as you continue to remind me) so after this season and after the reported changes to the web site take place I'm going to write a long column focusing on the three areas that I feel cost the Sox playoff spots (in a general sense, not necessarily every item every year) in 2003, 2006, 2010 and possibly 2012.

As in no particular order:

1. Losing more games to the three worst teams in the league than the clubs who went to the postseason in each year.

2. Injuries (the Sox say they've lost fewer games to the IR than any team in baseball over the past 10 years and that's true - but when they do get injuries it finishes them, i.e. playoffs 2000, 2001, 2004, 2007, 2010 possibly 2012)

3. The trend (it's no longer a fluke) of the Sox to play worse from a win percentage standpoint in the "second half" of the season regardless of your definition of "second half" as in games 1-81 and 82-162 or before the All Star break compared to afterwards.

I've already started doing some preliminary research and the numbers will surprise you.

Lip

I look forward to it!

hawkjt
08-29-2012, 03:39 PM
It was very weird for all those aces to go down last nite.
And not just barely beat,they got blown out.

I think it has to be a reflection of the long,hot summer,and accumulation of fatigue. Verlander has been shaky his last couple of starts.

I am fine as long as the Sox keep that 2 game lead.
Tigers were about a half foot away from winning that game last nite on Delmon Youngs homer,while the Sox were miles from winning vs Tillman,so a wash is not bad.

jdm2662
08-29-2012, 04:29 PM
Hence the problem, Lip, you don't follow those teams enough to know whether losses to crap teams end their postseason dreams. You make it sound like it only happens to the Sox without any basis for that because there is no analysis of the Sox' performance vs. that of other sometimes-playoff franchises.

In 2008, the Twins lost 4 of the last 6 games to KC in the dome, including 2 of 3 in the last series of the season.

The Tigers lost 4 of their last 6 to the Sox in 2009, including 2 of 3 in the last series of the season.

The Tigers got swept by KC in the last series of the season in 2006 which costed them the division title. But, that is over looked since they still made it via wild card and went to the WS

Oh, the Tigers went 6-12 against the Sox in 2007 that went 72-90.

And, this is just off the top of my head as I'm working on a call.

WisSoxFan
08-29-2012, 04:48 PM
The Yankees suck because they just lost a series to Toronto, who hasn't won a series since beating Detroit (they must play down to their competition as well) in July.

Lip Man 1
08-29-2012, 04:49 PM
JDM:

And the Tigers are having no issues with having a high payroll or attendance are they despite the missed chance?

Detroit apparently can afford to blow post season chances at this point...the Sox with the resulting attitude, attendance and payroll situation aren't in that same boat are they? It's all interrelated...it's not simply playing down to the compitition and losing post season chances.

It's how blowing those chances impacts next season's payroll, it's how it effects season tickets, it's how it's going to influence the new radio / TV deals (particularly with Comcast) when that comes in in 2016.

Like I told Kittle we'll see how the numbers stack up when all is said and done, I'll have them in the story.

Three (possibly) four potential playoff spots wasted in a decade won't cut it will it despite what any other team does.

Wi:

And the Yankees despite missing A-Rod for two months and a boatload of pitchers will still probably win 90+ games and get to the playoffs for what... something like the 12th time in 13 years? I think that makes your point moot doesn't it?

Lip

JB98
08-29-2012, 05:31 PM
I really don't think the Sox postseason chances will hinge on mental issues or the remaining schedule. To me, it comes down to the Sox offense.

The Sox are a low OBP team. It's one of our weaknesses. The bottom three hitters in the order all have OBPs below .290. We rank ninth in the AL in OBP. Fortunately, we rank second in the league in home runs, which helps overcome a poor OBP. BUT, as we all know power slumps. The Sox are a streaky offensive team for just that reason.

When they can't hit home runs, they struggle to score because they are not a team that puts a lot of hits together, nor are they a team that walks a whole bunch (13th in the league in walks). When they hit home runs, they dominate.

If the Sox offense hits a groove at the right time, they will win the division. If they slump at the wrong time, they will not. That's my opinion on what will decide this thing.

jdm2662
08-29-2012, 05:35 PM
JDM:

And the Tigers are having no issues with having a high payroll or attendance are they despite the missed chance?

Detroit apparently can afford to blow post season chances at this point...the Sox with the resulting attitude, attendance and payroll situation aren't in that same boat are they? It's all interrelated...it's not simply playing down to the compitition and losing post season chances.
Lip

That's two different discussions. Acting like the Sox and only Sox lose to bad teams that cost them the playoffs is silly. Which, I'm not singling you out here. Others act like this. It's baseball. The crappiest teams win 40% of the time, and it's the only professional sports league where this happens.

And, last time I checked, the O's are pretty good this season and chasing the Yankees. The Tigers just lost to KC yesterday with Verlander getting rocked. Nothing is guarenteed in life.

kufram
08-29-2012, 05:50 PM
I think a lot of over-thinking is going on here. This is baseball, a game played by human beings. Some days I do things better than other days. Some days I feel better than other days. Some people rub me the wrong way. Some people make me lose concentration. Sometimes I can't do anything right. Other times I can do anything I want with ease.

I can't explain it.

P.S. I remember games in the middle of 2005 when the park was not near full. I can't explain that either.

palehozenychicty
08-30-2012, 12:02 AM
Here's the problem I have with this argument.

Fact: Minnesota, Cleveland, Toronto, Seattle and the Cubs are losing teams.
Fact: The White Sox are a combined 35-14 against those five teams. That's a .714 winning percentage.

If the Sox have a habit of playing to the level of their competition, how come they have steamrolled those five lousy clubs?

If they were really playing "down to the competition," wouldn't they have problems with all or at least most sub-.500 clubs? Kansas City is the only one they are really having trouble beating. Yeah, they are having problems with the Orioles, but Baltimore is good now. Just check the AL East standings.

See, I don't think the Sox are playing down to their competition. I think they are a good team, but a flawed team. The flaws in the roster make them inconsistent. When they are going good, they beat every team in their path -- even Texas and the Yankees. When they are playing poorly, they can lose to literally anybody -- even Houston. We've seen examples of both those things throughout the season.

Fortunately, their good streaks have lasted longer than their bad streaks, and that's why they are in front in the division.

I don't think it's a matter of needing more "fire and passion" against the lesser teams or anything like that. They obviously haven't taken the Twins or the Mariners lightly.

If the Sox lose games to teams below them in the standings, well, I think it's just because they are a flawed team. I don't know that it needs to be more complicated than that.They are a good club playing at or near their potential. But they aren't the kind of ballclub that is going to win 95-100 and run away in the division. I don't think it's fair for any of us to expect that.

Exactly. I think it also points to the fact that the team is very top heavy in terms of talent. Their lack of organizational depth is probably why they lost some of those playoff opportunities in the past. This was with greenies and other artificial enhancements being in play.

Now restrictions have been imposed on overpaying for draft slots and the luxury tax becomes more punitive after 2013. Therefore, your scouts will have to be real, real good. Let's see if they can get to the next level.