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View Full Version : Tampa Bay, a disgrace


LITTLE NELL
08-21-2012, 06:22 AM
Rays return home after a 8-2 West Coast trip. Hottest team in MLB right now as they beat KC last night (why can't the Sox do that) and 9,913 show up at the Trop. I think TB will soon be on their way to another city, for selfish reasons it bothers me as I get to see the Sox when they visit and I also get my daily baseball fix by watching most of their games.

SCCWS
08-21-2012, 08:01 AM
i agree. Obviously Tampa/St Pete is a major league city since they support their hockey team. Hockey and the south still seems strange. The football team is one of the worst drawing teams now that they are losing. Bbaseball is just not a draw in Tampa despite the fact that indoors eliminates the hot weather factor. They have been a good team for several years, prices are dirt cheap yet they still don't draw.

DumpJerry
08-21-2012, 08:22 AM
The residents still root, root for the home team.

Yankees, Mets and Red Sox.

peelwonder
08-21-2012, 08:42 AM
They desperately need a new ballpark as it's not fun to watch games at the trop.

SCCWS
08-21-2012, 08:49 AM
They desperately need a new ballpark as it's not fun to watch games at the trop.


Why??? If a winning team cannot draw, why would a ballpark help. Do you think a losing team in a nice new ballpark w much higher prices would draw?? The problem is the area does not have a large enough core fan base. Too many transplants who still root and watch for their hometown teams via cable.

Madvora
08-21-2012, 09:05 AM
This is the same thing as Cub fans complaining about how many people show up at Comiskey. Who cares? The real fans are at the game. It doesn't matter to them if a bunch of fair weather fans show up or not. There's obviously a low population of Rays fans.

Red Barchetta
08-21-2012, 09:12 AM
Why??? If a winning team cannot draw, why would a ballpark help. Do you think a losing team in a nice new ballpark w much higher prices would draw?? The problem is the area does not have a large enough core fan base. Too many transplants who still root and watch for their hometown teams via cable.

The real problem is the location of the ballpark being in downtown St. Petersburg. Getting to/from the game is just too difficult for many residents on the other side of Tampa Bay. The ballpark is not centrally located and is literally cut off from all eastern county residents who would need to drive around the bay in order to get there. Imagine the challenges SOX fans from the western suburbs of Chicago would have attending games in Gary, IN.

Add the fact that Tropicana Dome is one of the ugliest ballmalls ever constructed and we have proof that a winning team does not draw fans in that type of environment.

I attend 10-15 games per season, including the SOX series and I attend more games than the average Rays fan. Pretty sad.

Interestingly, a friend of mine had a business lunch meeting with the mayor of St. Pete and he asked about the Rays desires to possibly move and build a ballpark in downtown Tampa next to the Times Forum where the Lightning play and the response was that what the Rays owner really want is to bring MLB to the Carolinas. Not sure if that is true or not, however an interesting response.

With the Marlins struggling on the field and on pace to have the lowest season attendance for any team opening a new ballpark, the Rays owners are obviously taking this all into consideration. They truly deserve a better fate as IMO, the current owners have tried everything possible to increase attendance. That includes building a solid, winning baseball team.

amsteel
08-21-2012, 09:42 AM
They desperately need a new ballpark as it's not fun to watch games at the trop.

Ask the Marlins how that is going.

Max Power
08-21-2012, 10:18 AM
Ask the Marlins how that is going.

Not a fair comparison. The Marlins are easily the biggest flop in baseball this year.

LoveYourSuit
08-21-2012, 10:20 AM
They desperately need a new ballpark as it's not fun to watch games at the trop.

The Marlins will be back to drawing 22k next season.

New stadium will not work.

LoveYourSuit
08-21-2012, 10:29 AM
Not a fair comparison. The Marlins are easily the biggest flop in baseball this year.

The Marlins are on pace for the lowest attendance of a new ballpark. The play on the field usually is not a factor for first year ballparks. In this case even more shocking with all the hype for that team in the spring, pre-sales for the year should have been way better.

Hitmen77
08-21-2012, 10:43 AM
They desperately need a new ballpark as it's not fun to watch games at the trop.

With the Marlins showing less than stellar attendance at their new park, I doubt people in Florida will be in any hurry to spend public money on a ballpark for the Rays.

This is the same thing as Cub fans complaining about how many people show up at Comiskey. Who cares? The real fans are at the game. It doesn't matter to them if a bunch of fair weather fans show up or not. There's obviously a low population of Rays fans.

To a certain extent, I agree. It's a bit hypocritical if Sox fans call Rays fans "lousy fans" for not supporting their team when we've had decades of fending off attendance boasts from Cubs fans. It's not that Rays fans are bad, it just that there apparently aren't enough of them in Tampa to support a team.

I think their attendance numbers are a legitimate point of discussion, though. Not as a reason to rip on their fans, but with less than 10,000 for a team in the playoff hunt it raises questions about the long-term viability of that franchise. If Eddie Einhorn had gotten his wish, he'd be the one stuck with a team drawing 9,000 fans in an outdated stadium in Florida.

I believe the Rays have a lease with St. Petersburg that runs for another 15 years or so. So, they're probably not going anywhere anytime soon. They're not the only team with serious ballpark/attendance woes either. The A's have just about the same record as the Rays and they drew just about the same amount of people to the Coliseum yesterday.

Red Barchetta
08-21-2012, 11:40 AM
With the Marlins showing less than stellar attendance at their new park, I doubt people in Florida will be in any hurry to spend public money on a ballpark for the Rays.



To a certain extent, I agree. It's a bit hypocritical if Sox fans call Rays fans "lousy fans" for not supporting their team when we've had decades of fending off attendance boasts from Cubs fans. It's not that Rays fans are bad, it just that there apparently aren't enough of them in Tampa to support a team.

I think their attendance numbers are a legitimate point of discussion, though. Not as a reason to rip on their fans, but with less than 10,000 for a team in the playoff hunt it raises questions about the long-term viability of that franchise. If Eddie Einhorn had gotten his wish, he'd be the one stuck with a team drawing 9,000 fans in an outdated stadium in Florida.

I believe the Rays have a lease with St. Petersburg that runs for another 15 years or so. So, they're probably not going anywhere anytime soon. They're not the only team with serious ballpark/attendance woes either. The A's have just about the same record as the Rays and they drew just about the same amount of people to the Coliseum yesterday.

Their lease runs through 2025, however the bonds to pay for the ballpark expire in 2016. I have no doubt the team's attorneys and/or MLB will get them out of their lease once the dome is paid for and St. Pete is not left with a bill.

Irishsox1
08-21-2012, 12:06 PM
Florida and their "fans". What do you want?...it's been like this forever. They don't support pro franchises. Doesn't matter what stadium, it's Florida and people don't show up.

skobabe8
08-21-2012, 12:20 PM
The Marlins are on pace for the lowest attendance of a new ballpark. The play on the field usually is not a factor for first year ballparks. In this case even more shocking with all the hype for that team in the spring, pre-sales for the year should have been way better.

Agree. Even the Pirates averaged 31K is 2001, and they finished 38 games under .500.

Max Power
08-21-2012, 12:28 PM
The Marlins are on pace for the lowest attendance of a new ballpark. The play on the field usually is not a factor for first year ballparks. In this case even more shocking with all the hype for that team in the spring, pre-sales for the year should have been way better.

The days of a guaranteed sellouts for a new ballpark are long gone. For what it's worth the Marlins averaged 19k last year and are at 28k so far this year, so there's been improvement. They need to win or they'll be back at 19k in another couple of years.

Red Barchetta
08-21-2012, 12:37 PM
Florida and their "fans". What do you want?...it's been like this forever. They don't support pro franchises. Doesn't matter what stadium, it's Florida and people don't show up.

What's funny is that I still wear alot of my SOX caps and other Chicago in-season gear. I will be in a local sports bars and Rays "fans" will joke with me about wearing my SOX cap. They then mention that since I no longer live in Chicago, that I should be a Rays fan. I then ask them if they are Rays fans, why are they watching the game in a sports bar instead of at the ballpark, and most of them tell me they support the team, however don't attend many games due to the location. Rays television ratings are still pretty strong.

As to the Bucs, I anticipate the fans returning this season. They did very well under Gruden and won a superbowl. Raymond James is a nice stadium, however the fans stayed away the past few seasons because of escalating ticket/parking prices and a general dislike of the previous coaching staff. I was pissed that the Bears-Bucs match up a few years ago was the international game. The Bears were the "visitors", so I will need to wait a few more years until they return to Tampa. :(:

Foulke You
08-21-2012, 12:44 PM
To a certain extent, I agree. It's a bit hypocritical if Sox fans call Rays fans "lousy fans" for not supporting their team when we've had decades of fending off attendance boasts from Cubs fans. It's not that Rays fans are bad, it just that there apparently aren't enough of them in Tampa to support a team.
I hear what you are saying and I'm also uncomfortable ripping another fanbase for attendance when we have issues of our own, albeit, not as bad as TB. Sox are averaging 24,448 this year and TB is averaging 20,394. However, the big difference is that the Rays are having sustained success since 2008. The Sox are coming off a massively disappointing season that saw them trim payroll and had experts predict doom and gloom. Not exactly a recipe for selling season tickets. I feel that the Sox have a fanbase that is slumbering at the moment as far as ticket sales. If the Sox make the playoffs 3 out of 4 seasons, you will see attendance awaken back up to 2006-2010 levels of 29K-35K per game. The Rays don't have that "upside". I'm not sure any amount of success can get TB's attendance to 30K+ per game. I just don't think they have enough of a fanbase to draw from.

WhiteSox5187
08-21-2012, 12:47 PM
Not a fair comparison. The Marlins are easily the biggest flop in baseball this year.

The Marlins had a real good May (I think they lost something like three games) and were in first place for that period and they were still struggling to draw. Baseball in Florida just doesn't work.

LITTLE NELL
08-21-2012, 12:52 PM
I hear what you are saying and I'm also uncomfortable ripping another fanbase for attendance when we have issues of our own, albeit, not as bad as TB. Sox are averaging 24,448 this year and TB is averaging 20,394. However, the big difference is that the Rays are having sustained success since 2008. The Sox are coming off a massively disappointing season that saw them trim payroll and had experts predict doom and gloom. Not exactly a recipe for selling season tickets. I feel that the Sox have a fanbase that is slumbering at the moment as far as ticket sales. If the Sox make the playoffs 3 out of 4 seasons, you will see attendance awaken back up to 2006-2010 levels of 29K-35K per game. The Rays don't have that "upside". I'm not sure any amount of success can get TB's attendance to 30K+ per game. I just don't think they have enough of a fanbase to draw from.

If the Sox had the same ticket prices and parking fees as the Rays the Sox would be drawing at least 5,000 more a game and would be close to a 30,000 average.
On another note I have never had a problem with watching a game in the Trop, its clean. the fans know their baseball and for me personally is easy to get to from Sebring which is about 90 miles away. I wear my Sox gear whenever I attend a game and have never been hassled by Rays fans. The big drawbacks are the location for most of the fan base and those stupid rings.

amsteel
08-21-2012, 01:22 PM
I will unabashedly make fun of Tampa until they sell out playoff games.

chicagowhitesox1
08-21-2012, 01:26 PM
Isn't the neighborhood bad near the Rays stadium, maybe thats another reason.

Hitmen77
08-21-2012, 01:29 PM
The days of a guaranteed sellouts for a new ballpark are long gone. For what it's worth the Marlins averaged 19k last year and are at 28k so far this year, so there's been improvement. They need to win or they'll be back at 19k in another couple of years.

What is this based on? :dunno: The Twins had outstanding turnout for their new park and that was only 2 years ago.

No one is saying they have to have guaranteed sellouts every night, but the Marlins numbers are the worst for a new park in 30 years.

The Marlins will be back to drawing 22k next season.

:ozzie
"and 20k of those **** fans will come to see me."

Noneck
08-21-2012, 01:52 PM
The big drawbacks are the location for most of the fan base and those stupid rings.

Too bad Webb's City isnt still around, it would give people a reason to go to that area.

LITTLE NELL
08-21-2012, 02:21 PM
Isn't the neighborhood bad near the Rays stadium, maybe thats another reason.

Not really, when you get off I-275 you are almost in the parking lots, you don't even pass through a neighborhood.. A lot of tailgate parties too. I love downtown St Pete, very quaint with a lot of trendy eating spots and hotels.
That being said, if the Rays are to surrive in the Bay area a new stadium has to be built near downtown Tampa.

Bump34
08-21-2012, 03:20 PM
As always I appreciate the concern for the Tampa Bay Rays...it wasn't too long ago I was taking phone calls in 2000 about a 1st place team that would attract 12,000 to a weekday game.

There is plenty of interest in Rays baseball in this area.TV ratings are way up from last year. Radio broadcasts continue to be #1 or #2 in the market during night broadcasts and Scarborough ratings have the Rays more popular than the Bucs in the market.

Bottom line...this area was hit as hard or harder than any market in MLB when it comes to the economic downturn...the ballpark is not in a prime position in the market...and extra $$$ don't show up in your pocket because a team starts winning.

This market will probably never be a 3 million fans a year possibility...but I believe with an improved economy and a centrally located ballpark they could be a consistent 2.5 million draw...

Only 27,000 last night for a couple of 1st place teams? What's up with that?

LITTLE NELL
08-21-2012, 03:31 PM
As always I appreciate the concern for the Tampa Bay Rays...it wasn't too long ago I was taking phone calls in 2000 about a 1st place team that would attract 12,000 to a weekday game.

There is plenty of interest in Rays baseball in this area.TV ratings are way up from last year. Radio broadcasts continue to be #1 or #2 in the market during night broadcasts and Scarborough ratings have the Rays more popular than the Bucs in the market.

Bottom line...this area was hit as hard or harder than any market in MLB when it comes to the economic downturn...the ballpark is not in a prime position in the market...and extra $$$ don't show up in your pocket because a team starts winning.

This market will probably never be a 3 million fans a year possibility...but I believe with an improved economy and a centrally located ballpark they could be a consistent 2.5 million draw...

Only 27,000 last night for a couple of 1st place teams? What's up with that?

Sox fans have said no to Premier priced games, Dynamic pricing and high parking fees. I only hope that JR and company have taken note.
One other thing, the Rays Couldn't even sellout a playoff game last year.

Bump34
08-21-2012, 03:42 PM
Sox fans have said no to Premier priced games, Dynamic pricing and high parking fees. I only hope that JR and company have taken note.
One other thing, the Rays Couldn't even sellout a playoff game last year.

Premier pricing and parking are excuses...

Sold out their 1st game...2nd game was an issue because of an early start and Rays were down 2-1 in the series...Every other playoff game has been sold out...

Max Power
08-21-2012, 03:47 PM
What is this based on? :dunno: The Twins had outstanding turnout for their new park and that was only 2 years ago.

No one is saying they have to have guaranteed sellouts every night, but the Marlins numbers are the worst for a new park in 30 years.



The Twins also won the division that year. My point was that bad teams, like the Marlins, aren't going to get great crowds just because they have new stadiums. The allure of visiting a new facility just isn't what it use to be since nearly every team in every sport got a new stadium over the past twenty years.

amsteel
08-21-2012, 04:09 PM
Premier pricing and parking are excuses...

Sold out their 1st game...2nd game was an issue because of an early start and Rays were down 2-1 in the series...Every other playoff game has been sold out...

Nope. 1200 short of a sell out in game 3 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2011/B10030TBA2011.htm) and 5700 short game 4 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2011/B10040TBA2011.htm).

Plenty of people seemed to show up for game 4 in 08 and the Sox were down 2-1.

Bump34
08-21-2012, 04:20 PM
Nope. 1200 short of a sell out in game 3 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2011/B10030TBA2011.htm) and 5700 short game 4 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2011/B10040TBA2011.htm).

Plenty of people seemed to show up for game 4 in 08 and the Sox were down 2-1.

Trust me...Game 3 was a sellout...all available tickets were sold.

SoxandtheCityTee
08-21-2012, 04:33 PM
The effect of the economy isn't just on people who lost their jobs completely -- some had their income reduced, or their savings, or both, and baseball games were one of the things to go or at least be cut back on. I know tons of people who still go, but go to fewer games.

Anyway Willsy, best of luck, maybe see you -- with sell-out crowds in both parks! -- in the post season.

FielderJones
08-21-2012, 04:59 PM
Trust me...Game 3 was a sellout...all available tickets were sold.

Being in the business, do you know how MLB determines what it calls a sellout?

Foulke You
08-21-2012, 05:24 PM
Premier pricing and parking are excuses...

C'mon Willsy, you can't use the bad economy in Florida as a reason for low attendance in St. Pete and then call Premier Pricing an "excuse" for Sox fans. Tickets last night against the Yanks were dynamically priced at a whopping $58 each for lower level reserved (lower box were obviously worse). $25 for parking. $141 total plus gas and food costs bring the evening up to $175 for Mrs. Foulke You and I. That is an expensive night at the ballpark and there just wasn't money in the budget this month for this series so I watched the TV broadcast instead. You are right, Sox being in first place hasn't put more money in my wallet.

I realize this whole thread got you on the defensive because they are blasting your team's attendance. Personally, I hate attendance discussions in general. It's a focal point that is important to many in the media and for some fanbases (i.e. Cubs fans). I've never understood the whole "turnstyle pride" thing. On this board, it seems that many are wondering if Florida is a viable option for MLB since both teams in that state struggle for fans. I'll take your word for it if you think it has potential because you know a whole lot more about that area than I do. One thing I do know, if the White Sox and Rays meet in the ALCS, nobody will be talking about attendance. It will be about David Price vs. Chris Sale and THAT is worth discussion.

Red Barchetta
08-21-2012, 05:38 PM
The Twins also won the division that year. My point was that bad teams, like the Marlins, aren't going to get great crowds just because they have new stadiums. The allure of visiting a new facility just isn't what it use to be since nearly every team in every sport got a new stadium over the past twenty years.

Add to that the fact that the team manager insulted most of the fanbase located near the ballpark... :o:

I view the 2012 Marlins as a complete fail both on and off the field. The new ballpark is very nice and I'm sure they will rebound and have strong attendance, however after seeing those fans suffer through watching Championship level teams playing in a restructured football stadium, the new ballpark alone should have attacted more fans than it has IMO. I get the Miami cable feeds and there are many "sold" premium seats empty as well. I can't believe the newness of the ballpark has worn off already.

Bob Roarman
08-21-2012, 05:39 PM
I don't really care what the reasons are, any thread in a White Sox forum bashing another team for attendance issues is an absolute joke. Pot meet kettle.

Red Barchetta
08-21-2012, 05:40 PM
I don't really care what the reasons are, any thread in a White Sox forum bashing another team for attendance issues is an absolute joke.

...I think it makes us all feel a little better.

CanBuehrleWait
08-21-2012, 05:42 PM
The residents still root, root for the home team.

Yankees, Mets and Red Sox.

Being a Chicago transplant to Tampa I would like to chime in as well. The Trop itself is not too bad a ballpark to see a game. Also downtown St pete and the nearby beaches are a draw themselves.

I do look more to the issue of the Tampa fanbase itself. At my job alone I would say at least 2/5 of the people are from cities other then Tampa. I like the Rays but as a White Sox fan I have a hard time driving 75 minutes to see a team that is not my favorite.

A more central location may help but based on the population I am not sure how much......

LITTLE NELL
08-21-2012, 06:24 PM
...I think it makes us all feel a little better.

Plus the fact that it was in ''Talking Baseball''.

doublem23
08-21-2012, 06:48 PM
I don't really care what the reasons are, any thread in a White Sox forum bashing another team for attendance issues is an absolute joke. Pot meet kettle.

Yeah but there is no doubt if prices were equal that the Sox would outdraw the Rays by what? Tenfold?

Bob Roarman
08-21-2012, 07:23 PM
Plus the fact that it was in ''Talking Baseball''.

Doesn't change the fact that it's White Sox fans bashing another team's fan base over their attendance.

LITTLE NELL
08-21-2012, 07:32 PM
Doesn't change the fact that it's White Sox fans bashing another team's fan base over their attendance.

With me its the Rays being my second favorite team and I feel bad for them as well as the Sox who should also be recieving more support.
I know if I lived in the TB metro area I would probably get to 5 to 10 games a year and we are senior citizens on a fixed income but I love Baseball and nothing beats fun at the old ballpark.

Lip Man 1
08-21-2012, 11:24 PM
Bump:

With respect, the pricing issues are an open wound with many Sox fans. The anger over it is something that you have to be on the boards to appreciate on a daily basis. Many fans are furious about it and feel the logic behind it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Noneck
08-21-2012, 11:58 PM
I know if I lived in the TB metro area I would probably get to 5 to 10 games a year and we are senior citizens on a fixed income but I love Baseball and nothing beats fun at the old ballpark.

Most people now a days would love to have a fixed amount of income coming in, so please dont use that one during these times.

DSpivack
08-22-2012, 12:24 AM
Most people now a days would love to have a fixed amount of income coming in, so please dont use that one during these times.

Correct me if am I wrong, but I believe that the Tampa area has been harder hit by the economy than the Chicago area.

Noneck
08-22-2012, 12:30 AM
Correct me if am I wrong, but I believe that the Tampa area has been harder hit by the economy than the Chicago area.

Maybe so but that was not my point. A fixed income is a steady fixed rate of income coming in, who wouldnt want that in these times? Thats not the reason the rays are not drawing and if it is, it shouldnt be.

DSpivack
08-22-2012, 12:42 AM
Maybe so but that was not my point. A fixed income is a steady fixed rate of income coming in, who wouldnt want that in these times? Thats not the reason the rays are not drawing and if it is, it shouldnt be.

I'm not sure if you truly understand what fixed income generally means.

Noneck
08-22-2012, 12:49 AM
I'm not sure if you truly understand what fixed income generally means.


A lifetime annuity, a fixed pension for life, any set income that will not increase or decrease for life?

DSpivack
08-22-2012, 01:04 AM
A lifetime annuity, a fixed pension for life, any set income that will not increase or decrease for life?

That, or senior citizens living on a relatively small pension who have little disposable income. That's a good chunk of the Rays' fan-base.

Noneck
08-22-2012, 01:14 AM
That, or senior citizens living on a relatively small pension who have little disposable income. That's a good chunk of the Rays' fan-base.

I understand people like that not being able to attend games just like I understand the unemployed or people with low paying jobs. But the term fixed income could be a real sweet thing depending on what is coming in for life.

I just dont like the term fixed income, it could mean vastly different things.

LITTLE NELL
08-22-2012, 07:37 AM
Most people now a days would love to have a fixed amount of income coming in, so please dont use that one during these times.

I understand people like that not being able to attend games just like I understand the unemployed or people with low paying jobs. But the term fixed income could be a real sweet thing depending on what is coming in for life.

I just dont like the term fixed income, it could mean vastly different things.

Number 1, Don't tell me what I can say on this board as long as its civil and I don't personally offend you.
Number 2, The only raise we get on fixed income is what Social Security gives the Mrs and I in COLA.
My wife has a small pension and in 10 years she has never recieved a raise from it.
My pension is larger but in the 16 years I've been recieving it I had one raise.
We have never gambled much in the markets. We have an annuity that we have not touched yet and do not want to touch until we we have to, in the meantime, utilities, food, clothing and gas go up every year and the Social Security COLA hardly covers those increases.
That sounds like a fixed income to me.

PS The Rays drew a whopping 10,800 last night.

SCCWS
08-22-2012, 08:32 AM
As to the Bucs, I anticipate the fans returning this season. They did very well under Gruden and won a superbowl. Raymond James is a nice stadium, however the fans stayed away the past few seasons because of escalating ticket/parking prices and a general dislike of the previous coaching staff. I was pissed that the Bears-Bucs match up a few years ago was the international game. The Bears were the "visitors", so I will need to wait a few more years until they return to Tampa. :(:

RED: the hockey team draws in an area w no hockey history. They are further than the Rays location for those north and west of the city.

SCCWS
08-22-2012, 08:44 AM
I spend the winter months in the Tampa Bay area and I think there is another major factor. The old saying " they roll the sidewalks up" is true in many of the retirement communities. I notice many residents rarely venture out of their immediate areas after dark. As a result, the "fixed income" crowd will typically not venture 30-45 minutes to Tampa to see a game.
Now in New England in the summer, residents think nothing of driving 90+ minutes to see a Red Sox game at night.

Both areas are hard hit by the economy w double digit unemployment.

LITTLE NELL
08-22-2012, 08:50 AM
I spend the winter months in the Tampa Bay area and I think there is another major factor. The old saying " they roll the sidewalks up" is true in many of the retirement communities. I notice many residents rarely venture out of their immediate areas after dark. As a result, the "fixed income" crowd will typically not venture 30-45 minutes to Tampa to see a game.
Now in New England in the summer, residents think nothing of driving 90+ minutes to see a Red Sox game at night.

Both areas are hard hit by the economy w double digit unemployment.

Whenever we go to a game in TB its always in the afternoon. I noticed that the Rays had some of their larger crowds this summer on weekday afternoon games. A lot of the retirement communities offer bus trips to those afternoon games for about 40 bucks a person with pretty good seats included.

EDIT. Last game of the TB-KC series just finished, 11,892 showed up. Largest crowd of the series was today's matinee. Now my fellow senior citizens can stop on the way home for an early bird dinner. What a country.

Red Barchetta
08-22-2012, 08:56 AM
RED: the hockey team draws in an area w no hockey history. They are further than the Rays location for those north and west of the city.

The Lightning play in downtown Tampa that has Harborside and generally more attractions, aka restaurants, etc. than St. Pete. The Times Forum is also located near the Tampa Convention Center and is in walking distance from the downtown business district and also host concert events. That's why the Rays want to build their new ballpark near the Times Forum to further advance the downtown Tampa sports and entertainment district. BTW - This is also near where they board the cruise ships, etc.

Downtown Tampa is also an easier destination for fans from the direct north and east of the city, aka, North Tampa, Brandon and Lakeland. If you live in Clearwater, I can understand that St. Pete may be an easier destination, however anything west of Clearwater is water.

Most importantly, in comparison to the Bucs, the Lightning know how to treat their fanbase, especially their season ticket holders. Ticket and parking prices are reasonable as well.

LITTLE NELL
08-22-2012, 09:24 AM
The Lightning play in downtown Tampa that has Harborside and generally more attractions, aka restaurants, etc. than St. Pete. The Times Forum is also located near the Tampa Convention Center and is in walking distance from the downtown business district and also host concert events. That's why the Rays want to build their new ballpark near the Times Forum.

Downtown Tampa is also an easier destination for fans from the direct north and east of the city, aka, North Tampa, Brandon and Lakeland. If you live in Clearwater, I can understand that St. Pete may be an easier destination, however anything west of Clearwater is water.

Most importantly, in comparison to the Bucs, the Lightning know how to treat their fanbase, especially their season ticket holders. Ticket and parking prices are reasonable as well.

Amen to that, the Lightning have a great owner.

Noneck
08-22-2012, 10:10 AM
Number 1, Don't tell me what I can say on this board as long as its civil and I don't personally offend you.
Number 2, The only raise we get on fixed income is what Social Security gives the Mrs and I in COLA.
My wife has a small pension and in 10 years she has never recieved a raise from it.
My pension is larger but in the 16 years I've been recieving it I had one raise.
We have never gambled much in the markets. We have an annuity that we have not touched yet and do not want to touch until we we have to, in the meantime, utilities, food, clothing and gas go up every year and the Social Security COLA hardly covers those increases.
That sounds like a fixed income to me.

PS The Rays drew a whopping 10,800 last night.

Scanning through attendance figures from last year and this year it appears Tampa has trouble drawing in early week games. Maybe afternoon games would help, it sure cant hurt.

You are right I should not tell you what to post and it was meant to be a generic comment not a personal one.

LITTLE NELL
08-22-2012, 10:22 AM
Scanning through attendance figures from last year and this year it appears Tampa has trouble drawing in early week games. Maybe afternoon games would help, it sure cant hurt.

You are right I should not tell you what to post and it was meant to be a generic comment not a personal one.

Thats cool and may I add that I've always enjoyed reading your posts these past few years.

Bump34
08-22-2012, 10:46 AM
Bump:

With respect, the pricing issues are an open wound with many Sox fans. The anger over it is something that you have to be on the boards to appreciate on a daily basis. Many fans are furious about it and feel the logic behind it doesn't make a lot of sense.

We do the same thing with the Yankees and Red Sox and this year with the Braves...

The Rays even charge a $3 surcharge if you walk up and buy tickets the day of the game...that blows my mind.

guillensdisciple
08-22-2012, 11:25 AM
We do the same thing with the Yankees and Red Sox and this year with the Braves...

The Rays even charge a $3 surcharge if you walk up and buy tickets the day of the game...that blows my mind.

I hope the rays stay around. I like them as a ballclub and will be down to see them play sooner or later.

SoxandtheCityTee
08-22-2012, 12:13 PM
The Rays even charge a $3 surcharge if you walk up and buy tickets the day of the game...that blows my mind.

Wow, that's a new one on me. Unbelievable.

Noneck
08-22-2012, 12:26 PM
[/I][/B]

Thats cool and may I add that I've always enjoyed reading reading your posts these past few years.


I feel the same about your posts and I have now learned to mince my words.

My earlier post about Webbs City was mainly directed to you but you may not have been familiar with St. Petes of years ago. My family had friends in St. Petes and we used to spend a month down there every summer in the 60's. Webbs City was located just east of where the Rays play now.

http://www.lostparks.com/webbs.html

SCCWS
08-22-2012, 12:36 PM
We do the same thing with the Yankees and Red Sox and this year with the Braves...

The Rays even charge a $3 surcharge if you walk up and buy tickets the day of the game...that blows my mind.

You need to put that in perspective. I went last April. A $9 ticket in upper deck-1st row behind homeplate was $11 walk up. Parking adjacent to stadium was $10. That is cheap for a MLB game.

Red Barchetta
08-22-2012, 01:11 PM
A couple of years ago, at the last minute I chose to go to the Wednesday afternoon "travel day" game at the Trop between the SOX and Rays. I walked up to the ticket booth 20 minutes before game time and asked for one seat, best available. I ended up sitting in the scout seats 5 rows back behind home plate. The ticket cost $45 and it cost $10 to park. The place was half empty/full empty.

It was fun talking with a few of the scouts at the game. All business to them!

LITTLE NELL
08-22-2012, 01:27 PM
I feel the same about your posts and I have now learned to mince my words.

My earlier post about Webbs City was mainly directed to you but you may not have been familiar with St. Petes of years ago. My family had friends in St. Petes and we used to spend a month down there every summer in the 60's. Webbs City was located just east of where the Rays play now.

http://www.lostparks.com/webbs.html

Yeah, I never heard of Webbs so I Googled it and it was quite a place. It closed in 1979, our first trip to Florida was in 1982 but it was to Ft Lauderdale. I've been to Wall Drug in SD a few times as I was stationed in SD in the Air Force. From what I saw when I Googled Webb's and what you posted, Wall Drug can't compare to Webb's.

white sox bill
08-22-2012, 04:22 PM
Here are the recent totals, you can see where the Rays are. Note the first place team in slot 24...
http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance

Golden Sox
08-22-2012, 06:45 PM
You think back and Einhorn did a tremendous amount of damage to the White Sox franchise. He put the Sox on Pay Tv (Sportsvision) before the chicagoland area was wired for cable. He then wanted to move the White Sox to St. Pete. He was never happy about playing second fiddle to the Cubs. if the White Sox had moved to St. Pete the Einhorn /Reinsdorf would no longer be owning the team in Florida, and Chicago would of been without an American League team. That would of been some legacy for him. After the White Sox agreed to stay in Chicago Einhorn has basically disappeared from the seen here in Chicago. As far as attendance goes here in Chicago, assuming the white Sox stay in the race they still should draw over 2 million this year which would be the 8th year in a row they will have drawn over 2 million people. Taking everything into account I don't think thats such a bad number of people to have drawn.

LITTLE NELL
08-22-2012, 08:08 PM
You think back and Einhorn did a tremendous amount of damage to the White Sox franchise. He put the Sox on Pay Tv (Sportsvision) before the chicagoland area was wired for cable. He then wanted to move the White Sox to St. Pete. He was never happy about playing second fiddle to the Cubs. if the White Sox had moved to St. Pete the Einhorn /Reinsdorf would no longer be owning the team in Florida, and Chicago would of been without an American League team. That would of been some legacy for him. After the White Sox agreed to stay in Chicago Einhorn has basically disappeared from the seen here in Chicago. As far as attendance goes here in Chicago, assuming the white Sox stay in the race they still should draw over 2 million this year which would be the 8th year in a row they will have drawn over 2 million people. Taking everything into account I don't think thats such a bad number of people to have drawn.

The low figures for the Yankee series make 2,000,000 a stretch. After the Seattle series this weekend all the rest of our home games are in September, with the kids back in school and Football back in season the Sox will draw about 1,970,000. There are 3 half price nights in Sept and if those games sell out then there is a chance for 2 million.

Bob Roarman
08-22-2012, 08:35 PM
All in all, pretty damn disappointing considering this is a 1st place team that will look to draw around the same that they drew last year with a manager half way out the door throughout most of the season with a below .500 team that had some of the worst single player performances in the league/all time. I don't see how when "taking everything into account" that's not too bad.

I mean, they have a chance to sweep the Yankees tonight, starting their ace, one the best pitchers in the league, and it looks like again there's like 25k out there, maybe around a quarter of them probably Yankee fans. But yeah, Tampa Bay is a disgrace.

GoSox2K3
08-22-2012, 10:41 PM
All in all, pretty damn disappointing considering this is a 1st place team that will look to draw around the same that they drew last year with a manager half way out the door throughout most of the season with a below .500 team that had some of the worst single player performances in the league/all time. I don't see how when "taking everything into account" that's not too bad.

I mean, they have a chance to sweep the Yankees tonight, starting their ace, one the best pitchers in the league, and it looks like again there's like 25k out there, maybe around a quarter of them probably Yankee fans. But yeah, Tampa Bay is a disgrace.

Great, more posts calling out Sox fans on attendance.:rolleyes:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2976225&postcount=8

Bob Roarman
08-22-2012, 10:48 PM
Not making assumptions or generalizing, it is what it is. I don't necessarily understand why it is that way, but the numbers are the numbers. And a thread calling out another team's fan base for not showing up is pretty damn hypocritical if you ask me. People sure can deal it out, but taking it is "trolling". You could slice the irony with a broad sword.

Red Barchetta
08-22-2012, 11:13 PM
You think back and Einhorn did a tremendous amount of damage to the White Sox franchise. He put the Sox on Pay Tv (Sportsvision) before the chicagoland area was wired for cable. He then wanted to move the White Sox to St. Pete. He was never happy about playing second fiddle to the Cubs. if the White Sox had moved to St. Pete the Einhorn /Reinsdorf would no longer be owning the team in Florida, and Chicago would of been without an American League team. That would of been some legacy for him. After the White Sox agreed to stay in Chicago Einhorn has basically disappeared from the seen here in Chicago. As far as attendance goes here in Chicago, assuming the white Sox stay in the race they still should draw over 2 million this year which would be the 8th year in a row they will have drawn over 2 million people. Taking everything into account I don't think thats such a bad number of people to have drawn.

I also remember how Einhorn and Reinsdorf tried marketing the White Sox as "Chicago's American League Team" when they first arrived. Mistakenly thinking that Chicago fans would embrace both teams. :?:

Red Barchetta
08-22-2012, 11:18 PM
Here are the recent totals, you can see where the Rays are. Note the first place team in slot 24...
http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance

Amazing that 2 of the 3 worst teams in MLB (Cubs & Rockies) have already drawn over 2 million while two playoff contenders like the A's and Rays are at the bottom. Blame it on the ballparks?

ChicagoG19
08-23-2012, 12:20 AM
Amazing that 2 of the 3 worst teams in MLB (Cubs & Rockies) have already drawn over 2 million while two playoff contenders like the A's and Rays are at the bottom. Blame it on the ballparks?

The Cubs are a special case and will continue to be. They have an old ballpark that is a tourist attraction, have plenty of nightlife around the area, and have a neighborhood with a bunch of 20 and 30 somethings with disposable income.

DSpivack
08-23-2012, 12:27 AM
The Cubs are a special case and will continue to be. They have an old ballpark that is a tourist attraction, have plenty of nightlife around the area, and have a neighborhood with a bunch of 20 and 30 somethings with disposable income.

The Rockies have all of that besides an old ballpark.

WhiteSox5187
08-23-2012, 12:31 AM
The Rockies have all of that besides an old ballpark.

The Cubs also were owned by one of the largest media companies in the country who marketed the entire team around "Beautiful Wrigley Field."

DSpivack
08-23-2012, 12:43 AM
The Cubs also were owned by one of the largest media companies in the country who marketed the entire team around "Beautiful Wrigley Field."

I know, and I wasn't meaning to compare the Rockies to the Cubs in popularity, just that many of the conditions which offer the Cubs to draw well also exist for the Rockies; Lo Do has a good amount of nightlife and young residents with disposable income, as well as a great location. And the Rockies do draw well.

LITTLE NELL
08-23-2012, 06:37 AM
The Cubs also were owned by one of the largest media companies in the country who marketed the entire team around "Beautiful Wrigley Field."

The Cubs have marketed "Beautiful Wrigley Field'' for many decades. When I was a kid in the 50s and the Cubs were horrible I'll never forget a commercial they ran. A middle aged lady calls up one of her friends and says ""Hey Madge, what do you say about going out to Beautiful Wrigley Field today, we can sit in the sun, get some fresh air and refreshments and even get to watch a ballgame". The ballgame was like an afterthought, and to this day nothing much has changed except they now draw 3,000,000 a year and back then drew 600,000. They actually might not hit 3 million this year, they are on pace for 2.9 million and with lower attendence in September will probably not make it.

LITTLE NELL
08-23-2012, 06:54 AM
Not making assumptions or generalizing, it is what it is. I don't necessarily understand why it is that way, but the numbers are the numbers. And a thread calling out another team's fan base for not showing up is pretty damn hypocritical if you ask me. People sure can deal it out, but taking it is "trolling". You could slice the irony with a broad sword.

I started this thread and am a follower of the Rays as I watch all their games and pull for them except when they are playing our White Sox and I felt I could state my feelings. It's becoming very clear that TB might possibly lose the franchise, the owner is not happy and many articles in the Tampa Tribune have also brought up the issue. Since 2008 they have had one darn good ball club and if they are at the bottom of the Majors in attendance with a yearly contender what will happen if they start losing?

C-Dawg
08-23-2012, 07:53 AM
The Cubs also were owned by one of the largest media companies in the country who marketed the entire team around "Beautiful Wrigley Field."

Its still all about the park. Have you heard their new commercials? "Baseball is better - in ballparks like this".

Red Barchetta
08-23-2012, 08:46 AM
Its still all about the park. Have you heard their new commercials? "Baseball is better - in ballparks like this".

I think the combination of good neighborhoods and good ballparks (aka Rockies) is a winning formula. The Cubs are unique phenomenon as they are still enjoying the benefits of the period when they were owned by the (then) mighty Tribune company. I'm old enough to remember the upper deck being closed at Wrigley Field in the late 70s due to lack of attendance, however that all changed in the early 80s when the Tribune took over and the Cubs actually reached the post season in 1984. The SOX had been the toast of the town in 1983 after reaching the playoffs and drawing 2M+ fans for the first time.

I think it's OK for MLB to admit that certain ballparks in certain locations have been a mistake and like everything else, times change and they need to change with it. They need to step in and help fix the Oakland and Tampa Bay franchises.

Golden Sox
08-23-2012, 10:27 AM
Drawing 2 million people this year isn't a bad number. 1) The White
Sox lost a third of their season ticket base this last year. After the 2011 season alot of people didn't renew their tickets this year. 2) Nobody expected this team to be that good this year. Some magazines thought the White Sox would lose 95 games this year. 3) The Prime/Premier ticket prices haven't gone over with the the White Sox fans. The only Prime/Premier game that has sold out the last 2 years has been Opening Day. Unfortunately I don't see anything changing in the future as far as pricing goes. I'm told that the White Sox make more money with 25,000 in attendance with Prime/Premier pricing than what they would with regular pricing and 35,000 in attendance. 4) The Dynamic Ticket Pricing has been a flop also. 5) Since they made upgrades at the Cell a few years ago the Park is nice. The problem with the Cell is that it should not of been built at the location where it is. Many years ago the White Sox fanbase use to be on the Southside of Chicago. Thats not the case anymore.The fanbase is scattered all over the chicagoland area now. Unfortunately most of the people who live on the Southside of Chicago don't come to the games at the Cell. So taking everything into account I don't think drawing 2 million people is a bad number.

Hitmen77
08-23-2012, 12:27 PM
I think it's OK for MLB to admit that certain ballparks in certain locations have been a mistake and like everything else, times change and they need to change with it. They need to step in and help fix the Oakland and Tampa Bay franchises.

I wonder what can be done with these two franchises? They are the two that most obviously have a problem in that they fail to draw even when the team has sustained success and both play in outmoded, unpopular stadiums. That's not a knock on their fans. It's just that their current location is certainly not working.

The issue with Oakland seems to be going nowhere. The latest plan to address their problems was to build a privately-funded baseball-only park in San Jose, but that is roadblocked by the Giants' territorial rights. Selig set up a commission to study this, but it's been years and they've never come up with anything.

The Rays are in a long term lease. Even if they can get out of that lease early, where would they go? Is there support (either public or private) to build a new stadium in the Tampa (or even Orlando) area?

The problem with MLB is that there aren't many other places for these 2 teams to move to. Any other metro area that could support a team would need to agree to help finance a new ballpark. There's probably not much support anywhere for that right now.

russ99
08-23-2012, 12:42 PM
I wonder what can be done with these two franchises? They are the two that most obviously have a problem in that they fail to draw even when the team has sustained success and both play in outmoded, unpopular stadiums. That's not a knock on their fans. It's just that their current location is certainly not working.

The issue with Oakland seems to be going nowhere. The latest plan to address their problems was to build a privately-funded baseball-only park in San Jose, but that is roadblocked by the Giants' territorial rights. Selig set up a commission to study this, but it's been years and they've never come up with anything.

The Rays are in a long term lease. Even if they can get out of that lease early, where would they go? Is there support (either public or private) to build a new stadium in the Tampa (or even Orlando) area?

The problem with MLB is that there aren't many other places for these 2 teams to move to. Any other metro area that could support a team would need to agree to help finance a new ballpark. There's probably not much support anywhere for that right now.

The thing in Oakland is a shame. Is the San Jose thing blocked only because the Giants had their farm team play there or is it a TV contract issue? Again, Bud is shown in a poor light favoring one franchise above another. The commissioner should be impartial.

As for Tampa, the stadium is a real issue. I can't see what else ownership can do there that they already haven't tried.

For the Sox, IMO the attendance numbers are a bit wonky. MLB should really list attendance figures by capacity and average filled instead of just a total, like the NHL does. I think we'd rank more in the upper middle that way, since we have a smaller park than other teams.

SCCWS
08-23-2012, 12:49 PM
The Rays are in a long term lease. Even if they can get out of that lease early, where would they go? Is there support (either public or private) to build a new stadium in the Tampa (or even Orlando) area?

The problem with MLB is that there aren't many other places for these 2 teams to move to. Any other metro area that could support a team would need to agree to help finance a new ballpark. There's probably not much support anywhere for that right now.

I am not familiar enough w Oakland's situation but I am w Tampa. They don't have a large core group of fans. They didn't draw when their stadium was new, they didn't draw when the team stunk and they don't draw now that the team is good. New stadiums are a novelty that wear off. How is Cleveland doing in that new park?? Remember when Camden Yards was a destination? Then they started losing and it wasn't as much. Now like the White Sox they are winning but attendance is just average.
New stadiums help. Safe neighborhoods and reasonably priced tickets do also. Winning is very important as is the local economy. But teams w/o a major fan base will always struggle when the team goes into a losing cycle.

LITTLE NELL
08-23-2012, 01:46 PM
Drawing 2 million people this year isn't a bad number. 1) The White
Sox lost a third of their season ticket base this last year. After the 2011 season alot of people didn't renew their tickets this year. 2) Nobody expected this team to be that good this year. Some magazines thought the White Sox would lose 95 games this year. 3) The Prime/Premier ticket prices haven't gone over with the the White Sox fans. The only Prime/Premier game that has sold out the last 2 years has been Opening Day. Unfortunately I don't see anything changing in the future as far as pricing goes. I'm told that the White Sox make more money with 25,000 in attendance with Prime/Premier pricing than what they would with regular pricing and 35,000 in attendance. 4) The Dynamic Ticket Pricing has been a flop also. 5) Since they made upgrades at the Cell a few years ago the Park is nice. The problem with the Cell is that it should not of been built at the location where it is. Many years ago the White Sox fanbase use to be on the Southside of Chicago. Thats not the case anymore.The fanbase is scattered all over the chicagoland area now. Unfortunately most of the people who live on the Southside of Chicago don't come to the games at the Cell. So taking everything into account I don't think drawing 2 million people is a bad number.

Your last point is valid, the White Sox wanted badly to move to Addison but were turned down by the voters and some political big shots out in Dupage county. After they were turned down I don't think they fought hard enough, I think accomodations could have been made or even another suburban area might have welcomed them.
To me 2 million is what 1 million use to be in the 50s and 60s. Somewhere in the 80s and 90s, 2 million became the norm, so yes I think 2 million is a good number but if JR and company learned anything this year is that probably lower ticket prices and lower parking fees might have brought 2.5 million into the park this year. Some will say the Sox make money with these high prices but they continue to alienate a big chunk of their fan base.
The White Sox in the 70s and 80s when having a good record in the spring and once summer came around I would bet that they had some of the largest walk up crowds in MLB. I would bet now that they have one of the smallest walk up sales in MLB.

DSpivack
08-23-2012, 01:59 PM
The thing in Oakland is a shame. Is the San Jose thing blocked only because the Giants had their farm team play there or is it a TV contract issue? Again, Bud is shown in a poor light favoring one franchise above another. The commissioner should be impartial.

As for Tampa, the stadium is a real issue. I can't see what else ownership can do there that they already haven't tried.

For the Sox, IMO the attendance numbers are a bit wonky. MLB should really list attendance figures by capacity and average filled instead of just a total, like the NHL does. I think we'd rank more in the upper middle that way, since we have a smaller park than other teams.

ESPN does this:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/sort/homePct

The Sox are 20th in attendance as a % of capacity.

Hitmen77
08-23-2012, 02:19 PM
I am not familiar enough w Oakland's situation but I am w Tampa. They don't have a large core group of fans. They didn't draw when their stadium was new, they didn't draw when the team stunk and they don't draw now that the team is good. New stadiums are a novelty that wear off. How is Cleveland doing in that new park?? Remember when Camden Yards was a destination? Then they started losing and it wasn't as much. Now like the White Sox they are winning but attendance is just average.
New stadiums help. Safe neighborhoods and reasonably priced tickets do also. Winning is very important as is the local economy. But teams w/o a major fan base will always struggle when the team goes into a losing cycle.

Oh, I agree. I don't think simply getting a new stadium would solve the Rays attendance problems. I'm just saying that their current stadium and stadium location are part of their problem.

SI1020
08-23-2012, 03:10 PM
The Cubs have marketed "Beautiful Wrigley Field'' for many decades. When I was a kid in the 50s and the Cubs were horrible I'll never forget a commercial they ran. A middle aged lady calls up one of her friends and says ""Hey Madge, what do you say about going out to Beautiful Wrigley Field today, we can sit in the sun, get some fresh air and refreshments and even get to watch a ballgame". The ballgame was like an afterthought, and to this day nothing much has changed except they now draw 3,000,000 a year and back then drew 600,000. They actually might not hit 3 million this year, they are on pace for 2.9 million and with lower attendence in September will probably not make it. I remember that commercial too.

SI1020
08-23-2012, 03:12 PM
ESPN does this:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/sort/homePct

The Sox are 20th in attendance as a % of capacity. When you do it that way, Atlanta really takes a big hit. BTW I think that is a better barometer to judge a team's attendance.

DSpivack
08-23-2012, 05:13 PM
When you do it that way, Atlanta really takes a big hit. BTW I think that is a better barometer to judge a team's attendance.

I don't at all. Miami fills up 75% of their park and is drawing 28,000 fans per game. The Dodgers fill up 74% of their park and draw 41,000 fans per game. The Marlins do not have better attendance than LA.

TheVulture
08-23-2012, 05:43 PM
"Obviously, the Rays cannot compete drawing 10,000 a game."

You know what is a disgrace? Drawing 38,902 a game and not winning jack squat in more than a century.

Bob Roarman
08-23-2012, 06:39 PM
I started this thread and am a follower of the Rays as I watch all their games and pull for them except when they are playing our White Sox and I felt I could state my feelings. It's becoming very clear that TB might possibly lose the franchise, the owner is not happy and many articles in the Tampa Tribune have also brought up the issue. Since 2008 they have had one darn good ball club and if they are at the bottom of the Majors in attendance with a yearly contender what will happen if they start losing?

Maybe baseball just doesn't work in Tampa. Maybe there's just no market for it. I don't know. I don't know anything about the ballpark and there are conflicting opinions of it in this thread about it being a good or bad place to watch, same as there is with the Cell. I really don't have a problem with you stating your feelings, it's when people bring up that ridiculous "rule" about how we can't talk about it concerning the White Sox, that's what makes it a joke. If people don't want to partake in a discussion, then just....don't. It's that easy. If you think it's old or tired, then don't discuss it, don't read it. It's not trolling, it's a legitimate topic, same as it is for Tampa.

LITTLE NELL
08-23-2012, 07:16 PM
Maybe baseball just doesn't work in Tampa. Maybe there's just no market for it. I don't know. I don't know anything about the ballpark and there are conflicting opinions of it in this thread about it being a good or bad place to watch, same as there is with the Cell. I really don't have a problem with you stating your feelings, it's when people bring up that ridiculous "rule" about how we can't talk about it concerning the White Sox, that's what makes it a joke. If people don't want to partake in a discussion, then just....don't. It's that easy. If you think it's old or tired, then don't discuss it, don't read it. It's not trolling, it's a legitimate topic, same as it is for Tampa.

I agree with what you say and I'm not sure why attendance is an off limits topic around here. It happened before I became a member but I think it's a legitimate subject in the respect that it affects the ballclub and it's income and ability to spend more on free agents. Maybe if we drew 3 million a year Mark Buerhle will still be in a Sox uniform. As Bill Veeck said there is nothing more beautiful than a ballpark packed with fans.
I think the Mods have been pretty lenient this year with the rule about attendance and I thank them as they are as perplexed as all of us are as why an exciting first place team can't fill up the ballpark.
As far as the Rays, they will not be able to keep any of their players, Crawford left last year, they won't be able to keep Price and Longoria so they will be in big trouble down the road.

SI1020
08-23-2012, 09:15 PM
I don't at all. Miami fills up 75% of their park and is drawing 28,000 fans per game. The Dodgers fill up 74% of their park and draw 41,000 fans per game. The Marlins do not have better attendance than LA. You know what? Upon further review you are right. That would be a good way to look at it if all the teams played in ball parks of similar capacity. Oh well, probably not one of my better posts, but I do appreciate the correction.

Golden Sox
08-23-2012, 09:31 PM
We use to vacation in Florida before the stadium was built in St. Pete. The Tampa newspapers were against a stadium being built in St. Pete. They thought a baseball franchise would draw better if it was in Tampa. I was under the impression that people in Tampa look at St. Pete the same way Northsiders from Chicago look at the Southside of Chicago. Most people forget that the Giants were actually sold to a group from St. Pete. The NL would not approve the move. They didn't think the NL was bettering themselves by leaving San Francisco and going into St. Pete.

DSpivack
08-23-2012, 09:45 PM
You know what? Upon further review you are right. That would be a good way to look at it if all the teams played in ball parks of similar capacity. Oh well, probably not one of my better posts, but I do appreciate the correction.

I don't think it works in baseball, but I can see it being more interesting in the NBA/NHL. Perhaps I am wrong, but those arenas seem to have less variance in size than MLB ballparks.

C-Dawg
08-24-2012, 07:33 AM
3) The Prime/Premier ticket prices haven't gone over with the the White Sox fans.... 4) The Dynamic Ticket Pricing has been a flop also.

It makes me wonder - when the Tribune opines in print that ticket prices are not the problem... Have they done any research into this at all? Anyone with a handful of old ticket stubs knows that prices ARE higher, sometimes considerably.

Lip Man 1
08-24-2012, 12:46 PM
Sun Times Sox beat writer looks at this and you get the sense he understands that "premium pricing" issues are a big part of the situation:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/14664903-574/white-sox-fans-play-hard-to-get-during-premium-priced-yankees-series.html

And again I have to mention that part of the reason for this situation (as it has been many, many times with this franchise) is the Sox are not able to keep anything going for a long period of time to excite the fan base, drive off season season ticket sales and generate publicity. They have had three losing seasons in the past five years, hadn't made the playoffs since 2008 and had an off season where on paper they got weaker. What did fans see to actually drive them to get season tickets / advance tickets this off season? Now add in the pricing issues, which justified or not, appear to be an open wound to the fan base in general and you've got the situation the Sox find themselves in.

Many of the exact same factors applied in 2000 when the media was asking the exact same questions about the fan base (save for the premuim pricing)

Lip

LITTLE NELL
08-24-2012, 12:58 PM
Sun Times Sox beat writer looks at this and you get the sense he understands that "premium pricing" issues are a big part of the situation:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/14664903-574/white-sox-fans-play-hard-to-get-during-premium-priced-yankees-series.html

And again I have to mention that part of the reason for this situation (as it has been many, many times with this franchise) is the Sox are not able to keep anything going for a long period of time to excite the fan base, drive off season season ticket sales and generate publicity. They have had three losing seasons in the past five years, hadn't made the playoffs since 2008 and had an off season where on paper they got weaker. What did fans see to actually drive them to get season tickets / advance tickets this off season? Now add in the pricing issues, which justified or not, appear to be an open wound to the fan base in general and you've got the situation the Sox find themselves in.

Many of the exact same factors applied in 2000 when the media was asking the exact same questions about the fan base (save for the premuim pricing)

Lip

49 dollars to sit in the bleachers? Hell would have to freeze over before I would ever pay 49 bucks to sit in the bleachers. I feel so very fortunate because at one time I able to see great HOF players like Mantle, Williams, Kaline, Aaron, Mathews, Spahn, Mays, Banks, Fox and Aparicio for a buck and a half a game.

russ99
08-24-2012, 01:02 PM
Sun Times Sox beat writer looks at this and you get the sense he understands that "premium pricing" issues are a big part of the situation:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/14664903-574/white-sox-fans-play-hard-to-get-during-premium-priced-yankees-series.html

And again I have to mention that part of the reason for this situation (as it has been many, many times with this franchise) is the Sox are not able to keep anything going for a long period of time to excite the fan base, drive off season season ticket sales and generate publicity. They have had three losing seasons in the past five years, hadn't made the playoffs since 2008 and had an off season where on paper they got weaker. What did fans see to actually drive them to get season tickets / advance tickets this off season? Now add in the pricing issues, which justified or not, appear to be an open wound to the fan base in general and you've got the situation the Sox find themselves in.

Many of the exact same factors applied in 2000 when the media was asking the exact same questions about the fan base (save for the premuim pricing)

Lip

Seemed to me that the Yankees series sold pretty well. The fans were missing in the usual areas: upper deck corners, back of the box seat area in the corners and few bad outfield seats. I can't blame fans for not wanting to pay premium prices to sit there.

Also, the Sox sent a survey out via e-mail the last few weeks - the paying customers' chance to give them feedback on lots of issues including cost and dynamic pricing. Needless to say, I complained loudly about dynamic ticket prices and the increase of prime/premier dates when the opponent doesn't call for it.

Lip Man 1
08-24-2012, 02:24 PM
Russ:

To be fair when I was watching the highlights the past few nights there seemed to be a good number of empty spaces in the left field bleachers. It was pretty easy to see on home runs in the area.

Lip

Hitmen77
08-24-2012, 02:57 PM
Maybe baseball just doesn't work in Tampa. Maybe there's just no market for it. I don't know. I don't know anything about the ballpark and there are conflicting opinions of it in this thread about it being a good or bad place to watch, same as there is with the Cell. I really don't have a problem with you stating your feelings, it's when people bring up that ridiculous "rule" about how we can't talk about it concerning the White Sox, that's what makes it a joke. If people don't want to partake in a discussion, then just....don't. It's that easy. If you think it's old or tired, then don't discuss it, don't read it. It's not trolling, it's a legitimate topic, same as it is for Tampa.

I agree with what you say and I'm not sure why attendance is an off limits topic around here. It happened before I became a member but I think it's a legitimate subject in the respect that it affects the ballclub and it's income and ability to spend more on free agents. Maybe if we drew 3 million a year Mark Buerhle will still be in a Sox uniform. As Bill Veeck said there is nothing more beautiful than a ballpark packed with fans.
I think the Mods have been pretty lenient this year with the rule about attendance and I thank them as they are as perplexed as all of us are as why an exciting first place team can't fill up the ballpark.
As far as the Rays, they will not be able to keep any of their players, Crawford left last year, they won't be able to keep Price and Longoria so they will be in big trouble down the road.

I cannot speak for the policy here. But, IMO, I have no problem with a discussion analyzing the factors behind attendance numbers for any team including the Sox.

What I do have a problem with is when the discussion here turns into people on this site bashing other Sox fans or the Sox fan base over attendance numbers. The same goes for bashing fans of other teams over attendance. I hate when people say things like the Rays have "terrible fans" or "their fans don't deserve a winner" because of low attendance. That's exactly the crap we put up with from Cubs fans. Just because the Rays have a small following in Tampa doesn't make the fans that they do have "terrible fans".

I agree that anyone who says that about Rays (or other teams' fans) and complains about Sox fan bashing over attendance is being a hypocrite.

What makes the Rays (and A's) situation worthy of discussion is that these are the two MLB teams that have sparse crowds even when they have sustained success. The Rays have had an exciting, playoff contending teams for several consecutive years and yet are still near the bottom of the league in attendance. Why is this? Let's have an honest and interesting discussion about what is wrong without calling out Rays fans themselves. Same with the A's. They obviously have problems out there at the Coliseum that is going to need to be resolved one way or another.

The Sox have some issues too. But it's not nearly as bad as the A's and the Rays. When the Sox are coming off of a few years of sustained success, we don't have an attendance issue. But, ticket sales are lagging this year, so let's have an honest discussion about pricing, coming off of successive disappointing years, Chicago market share dynamics, etc. without calling out our entire fan base for "making excuses for not going to games" or picking apart specific poster's roadblocks to going to more games as "excuses."

Hitmen77
08-24-2012, 03:06 PM
Sun Times Sox beat writer looks at this and you get the sense he understands that "premium pricing" issues are a big part of the situation:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/14664903-574/white-sox-fans-play-hard-to-get-during-premium-priced-yankees-series.html

And again I have to mention that part of the reason for this situation (as it has been many, many times with this franchise) is the Sox are not able to keep anything going for a long period of time to excite the fan base, drive off season season ticket sales and generate publicity. They have had three losing seasons in the past five years, hadn't made the playoffs since 2008 and had an off season where on paper they got weaker. What did fans see to actually drive them to get season tickets / advance tickets this off season? Now add in the pricing issues, which justified or not, appear to be an open wound to the fan base in general and you've got the situation the Sox find themselves in.

Many of the exact same factors applied in 2000 when the media was asking the exact same questions about the fan base (save for the premuim pricing)

Lip

You nailed it right there, Lip. Season tickets/advanced sales are the key for the Sox. Going into 2012, there was no excitement to spur ticket sales. The team was coming off several disappointing seasons and all indications were that they were in some sort of quasi-rebuild mode this year.

When the team suddenly and unexpectedly becomes a contender during the season, it always takes time for ticket sales to totally rebound. This has been shown over and over again in 2000, 2005, and now in 2012.

The strange pricing schemes for some of the games hasn't helped either.

DSpivack
08-24-2012, 03:38 PM
You nailed it right there, Lip. Season tickets/advanced sales are the key for the Sox. Going into 2012, there was no excitement to spur ticket sales. The team was coming off several disappointing seasons and all indications were that they were in some sort of quasi-rebuild mode this year.

When the team suddenly and unexpectedly becomes a contender during the season, it always takes time for ticket sales to totally rebound. This has been shown over and over again in 2000, 2005, and now in 2012.

The strange pricing schemes for some of the games hasn't helped either.

That beat writer mentioned prime/premier pricing, but I think the dynamic pricing model is a bigger problem than just charging more for better/more popular teams. Van Schouwen made no mention of it, I wonder if he understands the difference.

Orta 4-6-3
08-25-2012, 12:53 PM
Sun Times Sox beat writer looks at this and you get the sense he understands that "premium pricing" issues are a big part of the situation:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/14664903-574/white-sox-fans-play-hard-to-get-during-premium-priced-yankees-series.html

And again I have to mention that part of the reason for this situation (as it has been many, many times with this franchise) is the Sox are not able to keep anything going for a long period of time to excite the fan base, drive off season season ticket sales and generate publicity. They have had three losing seasons in the past five years, hadn't made the playoffs since 2008 and had an off season where on paper they got weaker. What did fans see to actually drive them to get season tickets / advance tickets this off season? Now add in the pricing issues, which justified or not, appear to be an open wound to the fan base in general and you've got the situation the Sox find themselves in.

Many of the exact same factors applied in 2000 when the media was asking the exact same questions about the fan base (save for the premuim pricing)

Lip

The Sox are the only one of the "original" franchises (i.e. in existence when the World Series began in 1903) that has NEVER made the post season in consecutive seasons.

LITTLE NELL
08-25-2012, 01:31 PM
The Sox are the only one of the "original" franchises (i.e. in existence when the World Series began in 1903) that has NEVER made the post season in consecutive seasons.

Yeah, everytime they make the post-season I think we have the makings of a dynasty and the next year they usually fall flat on their faces.
They might have had a dynasty had they not thrown the 1919 Series.
1993 was a very good team and they were playing great in 94 and it all went out the window with the strike. My boyhood heroes of the 50s and 60s had some great seasons with many 90+ win years and had some good chances to get to the Series but 1959 is all we have to show for it for those years.

Red Barchetta
08-25-2012, 02:39 PM
Yeah, everytime they make the post-season I think we have the makings of a dynasty and the next year they usually fall flat on their faces.
They might have had a dynasty had they not thrown the 1919 Series.
1993 was a very good team and they were playing great in 94 and it all went out the window with the strike. My boyhood heroes of the 50s and 60s had some great seasons with many 90+ win years and had some good chances to get to the Series but 1959 is all we have to show for it for those years.

The SOX also followed up their 2005 World Series Championship season with a 90-win season in 2006 only to finish 3rd in their division. Ouch! :?:

LITTLE NELL
08-25-2012, 02:49 PM
The SOX also followed up their 2005 World Series Championship season with a 90-win season in 2006 only to finish 3rd in their division. Ouch! :?:

Ouch is right, the first half was great and the second half was horrible.
57-31 before the break
33-41 after the break.

Red Barchetta
08-26-2012, 01:30 PM
Oh, I agree. I don't think simply getting a new stadium would solve the Rays attendance problems. I'm just saying that their current stadium and stadium location are part of their problem.

For anyone watching the coverage from the Rebublican National Convention this week, you will probably see a lot of exterior shots of the convention center, The Times Forum, Channelside, etc. This is the same area where the Rays ownership wants to build a new ballpark in downtown Tampa. Rumor is that the same investors who built Coors Field have also purchased the empty land/parking areas around the Times Forum. If true, I wonder why they did that?!

white sox bill
08-28-2012, 07:41 AM
I wrote my Brother in Law whos retired and living quite well in a beach front condo in St Pete why the Rays cant draw. I pasted his reply (he goes quite a bit IIRC):

Isaac was a non event here. A little rain, a little breeze. All is well, should be back to full sun tomorrow.


Rays will sell out for the playoffs, but otherwise people just don't get it. The Trop is a great place to go and trying to replace it is just a joke. Big political football here. They seem to think an outdoor stadium @ 90 degrees with thunderstorms is cool. NOT. Ever see the Marlins 4000 faithful in the Orange Bowl?

Hitmen77
08-28-2012, 09:20 AM
Since this thread started out by criticizing the wild card-leading Rays for only drawing 9,900 to a game, I'd like to point out that the wild-card leading Orioles drew 10,900 last night.

....and they play in the revered Camden Yards instead of the despised Trop Field.

Red Barchetta
08-28-2012, 09:43 AM
I wrote my Brother in Law whos retired and living quite well in a beach front condo in St Pete why the Rays cant draw. I pasted his reply (he goes quite a bit IIRC):

Isaac was a non event here. A little rain, a little breeze. All is well, should be back to full sun tomorrow.


Rays will sell out for the playoffs, but otherwise people just don't get it. The Trop is a great place to go and trying to replace it is just a joke. Big political football here. They seem to think an outdoor stadium @ 90 degrees with thunderstorms is cool. NOT. Ever see the Marlins 4000 faithful in the Orange Bowl?

If you live in dowtown St. Pete and you're a Rays fan, you don't want them to move from Tropicana because you've got a good thing going. A short distance to the park (dome), AC and relatively no competition for good seats. The problem is that many people don't "get it" because it's too far away through too much heavy traffic. Ask a fan in Lakeland and I think he/she would offer up a different opinion.

I don't support the indoor only argument when there are so many great examples of retractable roof ballparks around the MLB. I agree that July/August in Fl has the issue of daily rainstorms, however it is no hotter here than it is in Atlanta, Texas, Arizona, etc. Plus, the evening/night baseball weather in April, May, June, September and October (?!) is beautiful!

The attendance statistics prove that pro baseball in St. Pete doesn't work regardless of the on-field product. Some can argue whether an outdoor stadium in St. Pete would produce better attendance, however we will never know considering the Rays offered up a privately funded outdoor ballpark in downtown St. Pete at the site of Al Lang Field and only blocks away from Tropicana and the city council voted the proposal down. Statistics also prove that the Rays have a strong fanbase based on TV ratings. That's why the current owners don't want to give up on the Tampa Bay market which is the largest metro area in Florida if you combine Clearwater, St. Pete and Tampa. They just want to attract more people and season ticket holders to the actual games vs. attracting the fans to their televisions.

He is right that it is a big political football because it's difficult getting Clearwater, St. Pete and Tampa to work together for the improvement of the entire Tampa Bay area. Tampa already has the NFL (Bucs) and NHL (Lightning) so to me it's a good fit for the Rays to move to Channelside in Tampa.

SCCWS
08-28-2012, 09:50 AM
Since this thread started out by criticizing the wild card-leading Rays for only drawing 9,900 to a game, I'd like to point out that the wild-card leading Orioles drew 10,900 last night.

....and they play in the revered Camden Yards instead of the despised Trop Field.

I agree. The stadium does not sell tickets for too long. Even winning is not helping the O's these days. Now maybe the stadium doesn't sell so the Rays need to make it a destination.

1. No roof for the new stadium. Reasons will follow.
2. All employees will dress in costume including Joe Maddon. Probably a pirate theme would work.
3. People movers. The new stadium needs moving sidewalks and a monorail that takes fans from parking lot right into the stadium.
4. A daily parade around the concourse. In fact, fill the concourse w beach sand.
5. Attached hotels.
6. No outfield grandstands. Instead encourage fans to bring beach chairs and beach umbrellas. The umbrellas could be used to shield the sun and protect against those damn afternoon showers.
7. Create a huge advertising campaign for the British isles and Japan. Package 4 games and 3 night accomodations. Buy a Rays Cruise Ship which could provide for a 3 day add-on to the 4game/3 night package.
8. Sign Dice-K and he can appear in the Japanese adds. Maybe Prince Harry in a thong could be the British Isles spokeperson.
9. Have a rotating fireworks/laser light show after each game. Again no roof restrictions.
10. Add Rays ears( fins) to the baseball caps. Obviously they need to have names embroided into the beaks.
11 Opening day--- give free tickets to every fan who turns in their cowbells. Then in the 7th inning have a huge barnfire to burn all the cowbells.

Can you picture Joe Maddonw an eye-patch and a sword heading out ot the mound to make a pitching change????

Lip Man 1
08-28-2012, 11:52 AM
Hitmen:

In fairness the O's fan base has been destroyed the past 15 years by incompetence from the folks running the franchise.

Just because the O's have a winning record right now doesn't erase all that overnight.

Lip

Foulke You
08-28-2012, 05:53 PM
Hitmen:

In fairness the O's fan base has been destroyed the past 15 years by incompetence from the folks running the franchise.

Just because the O's have a winning record right now doesn't erase all that overnight.

Lip
You beat me to it Lip. The O's have been awful for many seasons. I'm quite sure their season ticket base has taken quite a hit over the years. What most people in the media don't understand is that a fanbase doesn't immediately get 40,000 per game with one surprise winning season like the White Sox or Orioles. The benefits of winning won't be felt until the following seasons when they sell more season tickets. Look at the 2007 White Sox, for example. That team was terrible with a capital T and finished 72L-90L but they averaged 33,500 per game that year because they were coming off a 90 win 2006 season and a World Series in 2005. People ponied up for season tickets in 2007 because they figured more exciting pennant chase baseball was on tap. The losing came as a surprise but it didn't effect attendance because the tickets were already sold.

The Immigrant
08-28-2012, 06:54 PM
The O's have been awful for many seasons. I'm quite sure their season ticket base has taken quite a hit over the years.

Adding the Nationals to the Baltimore/Washington area has also had a significant impact on the O's attendance. One of their beat writers was on the radio this morning talking about attendance, and he estimated that 20-25% of their season ticket base used to be made up of people from the Washington area. Not anymore.

Hitmen77
08-28-2012, 08:13 PM
Hitmen:

In fairness the O's fan base has been destroyed the past 15 years by incompetence from the folks running the franchise.

Just because the O's have a winning record right now doesn't erase all that overnight.

Lip

You beat me to it Lip. The O's have been awful for many seasons. I'm quite sure their season ticket base has taken quite a hit over the years. What most people in the media don't understand is that a fanbase doesn't immediately get 40,000 per game with one surprise winning season like the White Sox or Orioles. The benefits of winning won't be felt until the following seasons when they sell more season tickets. Look at the 2007 White Sox, for example. That team was terrible with a capital T and finished 72L-90L but they averaged 33,500 per game that year because they were coming off a 90 win 2006 season and a World Series in 2005. People ponied up for season tickets in 2007 because they figured more exciting pennant chase baseball was on tap. The losing came as a surprise but it didn't effect attendance because the tickets were already sold.

Lip, excellent point. I stand corrected and that is a big difference between the Rays and the O's.

However, people seem bent on ignoring this when it comes to Sox attendance. It's not just the media either. It's not too hard to find posts here at WSI that rip on Sox fans for this very thing while ignoring the way ticket sales work.

Lip Man 1
08-28-2012, 10:35 PM
Hitmen:

Well the Sox haven't been anywhere near as close to being as bad as the Orioles but I do see your point. Three losing seasons in five years, one quick postseason appearance in that time frame, only three postseason appearances since 2000 and a ticket pricing concept that apparently rubbed a good portion of the fan base the wrong way.

Those factors will eat into ticket sales.

Lip

DSpivack
08-28-2012, 10:51 PM
Hitmen:

Well the Sox haven't been anywhere near as close to being as bad as the Orioles but I do see your point. Three losing seasons in five years, one quick postseason appearance in that time frame, only three postseason appearances since 2000 and a ticket pricing concept that apparently rubbed a good portion of the fan base the wrong way.

Those factors will eat into ticket sales.

Lip

Yes, when you have an idiotic business plan that does nothing but piss off most of your customers, your business will suffer. And Jerry, Brooks & co. remain in denial.

Dan H
08-29-2012, 05:20 AM
Yes, when you have an idiotic business plan that does nothing but piss off most of your customers, your business will suffer. And Jerry, Brooks & co. remain in denial.


I agree with this completely. And the Sox ownership has been denial ever since it purchased the team.

SI1020
08-29-2012, 02:53 PM
I agree with this completely. And the Sox ownership has been denial ever since it purchased the team. One PR disaster after another, all the way back to the beginning.

Red Barchetta
08-29-2012, 05:13 PM
One PR disaster after another, all the way back to the beginning.

I remember...

"White Sox - Chicago's American League Team". :rolleyes: