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View Full Version : Who Has the Edge? Sox or Tigers?


ZombieRob
08-17-2012, 08:10 AM
Were almost down the stretch and this point Sox are holding their ground and appear to be a legit contender. But in every ones opinion who has the edge?


Pitching Sox

Defense Sox

Offense Sox

Schedule Even

Coaching Tigers

Star Power Tigers


I think the destiny is in the Sox' own hands. They have 2 series' coming up with the Tigers. But IMO must take care of business against KC and the Twins. This is going to be a great stretch run. BTW Robin is Manger of the year IMO.

delben91
08-17-2012, 08:41 AM
I'd put offense at "even" and schedule as "Tigers" only because they have more home games than away games and they have a crazy good home record.

I'd also take out the star power category, as while that seems to be what a lot of "experts" base their predictions on, only performance matters now. So...

Pitching Sox

Defense Sox

Offense Even

Schedule Tigers

Coaching Tigers

I think the Sox pull it out at the end, but they're certainly not going to run away with it. Ultimately, the Tigers lack of starters 3-5 in their rotation will be their undoing.

Lip Man 1
08-17-2012, 08:46 AM
It's going to come down to the seven head to head meetings. I expect Verlander to pitch against the Sox in both of them.

Lip

PorkChopExpress
08-17-2012, 09:40 AM
It's going to come down to the seven head to head meetings. I expect Verlander to pitch against the Sox in both of them.

Lip

I expect him to pitch in at least three of them.

I wish our hitters could remember the olden days when they used to kill him, back before he found the fountain of freak. Then just imagine it's that Verlander on the mound.

If they could get to him in one game, that would crush Detroit's spirit. Just don't pitch to Miggy in the late innings of that game.

aryzner
08-17-2012, 09:47 AM
I expect him to pitch in at least three of them.

I don't see how that's possible. The Sox will see Verlander twice.

Frater Perdurabo
08-17-2012, 10:16 AM
I think the Tigers have a better offense.

It depends what we mean by coaching. I think Leyland could out-strategize Ventura in game situations.

However, Cooper is a better pitching coach. Also, Ventura and Parent have, through running infield practice before the first game of every series (as reported by Mark Gonzalez a week ago in the Trib), in contrast to every other MLB team (again, as reported by Gonzo, who cited reports by grounds crew in the ballparks the Sox have visited), elevated the Sox fielding. And Ventura says the Sox will continue to take infield as long as he's the manager, which mean that this group of players may continue to improve their fielding execution. Therefore, I think one could argue that the difference in coaching is smaller than perceived at first glance.

Cat Thief
08-17-2012, 10:23 AM
I don't see how that's possible. The Sox will see Verlander twice.


Game 163?

Noneck
08-17-2012, 10:26 AM
However, Cooper is a better pitching coach. Also, Ventura and Parent have, through running infield practice before the first game of every series (as reported by Mark Gonzalez a week ago in the Trib), in contrast to every other MLB team (again, as reported by Gonzo, who cited reports by grounds crew in the ballparks the Sox have visited), elevated the Sox fielding. And Ventura says the Sox will continue to take infield as long as he's the manager, which mean that this group of players may continue to improve their fielding execution. Therefore, I think one could argue that the difference in coaching is smaller than perceived at first glance.

Im with you on this. Defense is based a lot on coaching. The tigers are not a great defensive team.

I not sure leyland can out strategize Ventura. Ventura has some heady coaches on the bench to help him, so we will see.

Madvora
08-17-2012, 10:36 AM
As of right now, the Tigers have to win 3 more games than us just to tie, and that matters.

Steelrod
08-17-2012, 10:38 AM
The sure thing Tigers have been choking for over 100 games. It's no longer a fluke, they are underachievers!

Sox by 2.

aryzner
08-17-2012, 10:43 AM
I'm not even going to talk about which team is better at what because I think we all know each team's strengths and their weaknesses at this point in the season.

I do think the Sox have the edge. Not only is it because at this time they are 2 games up in the W column and 3 in the L, but it's because this team is resilient. They are for real. This team looks happy in the dugout and on the field, they play loose and look like they're having fun, and they're winning which helps that feeling.

Even when the Sox lose, they usually only lose by a close margin. They are in nearly every game they play in. The last time they really got blown out was against Detroit (lost 7-1 on 7/21) and Boston (lost 10-1 on 7/18).

ZombieRob
08-17-2012, 10:52 AM
Im with you on this. Defense is based a lot on coaching. The tigers are not a great defensive team.

I not sure leyland can out strategize Ventura. Ventura has some heady coaches on the bench to help him, so we will see.
The Weakness Robin has shown this year is bullpen management and a few pinch hitting situations. Leyland IMO has the edge due to big game and big pressure situations. Robin as a coach hasn't experienced them yet.

TheOldRoman
08-17-2012, 11:04 AM
I would say the Sox have the edge at this point, but it's all speculation, anyway. Yes, I realize this is a message board and that's pretty much all we do. We can say the Sox are favorites on paper and have an easier schedule, but they need to fatten up on bad teams, and they haven't been able to do that over the past few years. The Sox have been embarassingly bad against KC this year. They have nine left against the ****ty but pesky Royals, six left against the ****ty but pesky Twins, three left against the Mariners, and six left against the Indians who have completely given up. They also have four left with Baltimore, who took 3/4 from us earlier on and who I believe is about ready to drop out of the race. If the Sox play down to the level of their competition the last six weeks, it won't matter that they had the edge.

beasly213
08-17-2012, 11:27 AM
The Weakness Robin has shown this year is bullpen management and a few pinch hitting situations. Leyland IMO has the edge due to big game and big pressure situations. Robin as a coach hasn't experienced them yet.

I think every teams fanbase thinks their manager mismanages its bullpen.

Chez
08-17-2012, 12:10 PM
It's going to come down to the seven head to head meetings. I expect Verlander to pitch against the Sox in both of them.

Lip

Maybe. But only if one team wins 5 (or more) out of 7. If the Sox go 4-3 or 3-4 against Detroit, then the season won't come down to those 7 games. Right?

Red Barchetta
08-17-2012, 12:21 PM
The fact that we're even discussing this on August 17th has me excited considering this was supposed to be a "rebuilding year". :D:

central44
08-17-2012, 12:57 PM
On paper, Detroit has a better offense, but the Sox offense has outperformed them all year.

The biggest difference is that Detroit is built for offense at the expense of pitching and defense. The Sox are much more balanced, as they pitch and catch the ball significantly better and still have a powerful offense. The only issue is that it can be streaky at times.

Still--baseball is a game of ups and downs. The Sox are built to weather the cold streaks. If Detroit goes on a cold streak between now and October, they really won't be (Except for days when Verlander is pitching). I have a lot more faith in our Sox ability to win a 1-0, 2-1 game.

ChiSoxGal85
08-17-2012, 01:15 PM
The fact that we're even discussing this on August 17th has me excited considering this was supposed to be a "rebuilding year". :D:
:nod: I am so happy with how this season has gone so far. I set my expectations pretty low, and have been pleasantly surprised.

Moses_Scurry
08-17-2012, 01:29 PM
I was really worried that these 7 games at Toronto and KC would be rough.

For me it's all psychological. When the Sox are in first, the season feels like it is dragging at a snails pace. If the Sox are in second, it feels like time is always running out.

When the Sox are in first, I feel like every single series will be tough. When they are not in contention, I don't really think about that.

All that being said, I feel that with the Sox starting 5 and PK coming back, they should have the advantage.

guillensdisciple
08-17-2012, 01:38 PM
Magic mark is 20 games over. Get there and you got this year in the bank:

Noneck
08-17-2012, 01:41 PM
Magic mark is 20 games over. Get there and you got this year in the bank:


19 over doesnt put them in?

kobo
08-17-2012, 01:47 PM
I think the Tigers have a better offense.

It depends what we mean by coaching. I think Leyland could out-strategize Ventura in game situations.

However, Cooper is a better pitching coach. Also, Ventura and Parent have, through running infield practice before the first game of every series (as reported by Mark Gonzalez a week ago in the Trib), in contrast to every other MLB team (again, as reported by Gonzo, who cited reports by grounds crew in the ballparks the Sox have visited), elevated the Sox fielding. And Ventura says the Sox will continue to take infield as long as he's the manager, which mean that this group of players may continue to improve their fielding execution. Therefore, I think one could argue that the difference in coaching is smaller than perceived at first glance.
I agree that Leyland is the better manager, but cannot see how anyone would say the Tigers coaching staff is better than the Sox. The work this staff has done with this team this year is impressive, to say the least. It's a 180 degree difference from Ozzie, Cora, and Walker.

sox1970
08-17-2012, 01:52 PM
19 over doesnt put them in?

Maybe if they have a rain out that doesn't have to be made up.

hawkjt
08-17-2012, 02:01 PM
Pitching- push...Verlander is the best,and Scherzer/Fister are hot now.
Offense- Tigers...Cabrera is the best, and Jackson/Fielder are very good.
Defense- Sox..very good.

Managing...push...Tiger fans think Leyland is the worst...

Schedule...Tigers.

On paper,this is going down to the wire.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
08-17-2012, 02:18 PM
The Tigers may have the #1 starter in either rotation (Verlander, and not by a whole lot), but the Sox have the #2 (Sale), #3 (Peavy), #4 (Quintana). I'd put Scherzer at #5, then Floyd at 6. Not to mention I'd take the Sox' bullpen over the Tigers' any day of the week.

The Tigers do have a more prolific offense, but they go as Cabrera and Fielder go. If they struggle, then their offense isn't any better than anyone else's.

Defense is Sox all the way. The Tigers have 3 DHs in the field, for crying out loud.

Managing I'd give a slight edge to the Tigers, because Leyland has more experience.

Schedule is Tigers, no question...but you never know, some of these teams that they'll play that are out of contention may have some hungry call-ups wanting to prove themselves. In '08, The Twins had a cupcake ending against the Royals in which they were supposed to drive the final nail in the Sox' coffin. How did that work out for them?

LITTLE NELL
08-17-2012, 02:24 PM
We need to build up a comfortable lead heading into the last 2 weeks of the season. In our last 4 series we have the Angels for 3, Indians for 3, Rays for 4 and Indians for 3 more. The Tigers have home and home series with KC and Minny. What worries me is that we face 2 teams that will be fighting for playoff spots, the Angels and Rays while Detroit will have it easier with KC and the Twins.
I think 90 wins takes the division.

Jollyroger2
08-17-2012, 02:36 PM
Sox have only won 4 of 11 vs the Tigers, so Detroit has the edge. If the teams stay close otherwise then it will come down to those head to head matchups, and the Tigers have had the better of those so far including a dominant sweep in the last series, outscoring the Sox 17-7.

Sox can't have a bad showing in the last seven meetings, if they go 2-5 or worse that will be their undoing.

Frater Perdurabo
08-17-2012, 02:52 PM
Leyland has been in many more high pressure situations as a manager. But Robin is cool, calm and collected, and I think he will therefore avoid making impulsively bad decisions in game situations.

Sometimes managers make bad moves that work out well. Other times they can make the right move on paper but the player fails to execute or pitcher just gets beat.

Between 2006 and 2011, Ozzie made a lot of moves that were inexplicable. Sometimes they worked out OK, but often they blew up in his face. I really don't think Ozzie ever looked at stats or splits. I think Cora did, and he probably conveyed info to Ozzie, but I think Ozzie ultimately made up his mind based on his gut and/or his established patterns.

OTOH, Robin has made moves that didn't work out, but almost every time I understand why he made that move. I think he and Parent both look at stats and splits, and discuss possible situations and scenarios based on a thorough evaluation of all the information to which they have access.

Much of the Sox organization remains intact from last year. I think it therefore is reasonable to credit Ventura, Parent, Manto and even McEwing for at least part of the improvement.

The bottom line is that I do not think Ventura will be out-managed to such an extent that it would cost us the division.

I think we win the division as long as Detroit doesn't completely mash through the end of the season.

palehosepub
08-17-2012, 03:39 PM
We need to build up a comfortable lead heading into the last 2 weeks of the season. In our last 4 series we have the Angels for 3, Indians for 3, Rays for 4 and Indians for 3 more. The Tigers have home and home series with KC and Minny. What worries me is that we face 2 teams that will be fighting for playoff spots, the Angels and Rays while Detroit will have it easier with KC and the Twins.
I think 90 wins takes the division.

This is my biggest concern too - when we go into those last 2 weeks we need to have at least a 4 game cushion. Tampa is starting to look scary good right now with that pitching staff and with Longoria back and the Rays will most certainly be fighting for a playoff spot .....

TDog
08-17-2012, 04:24 PM
I'd put ... schedule as "Tigers" only because they have more home games than away games and they have a crazy good home record.
...


I really don't know if that means much. The Tigers have a losing record against the Twins at home (losing four of six) but they are 5-1 at Target Field. The Tigers were swept by the Mariners at home after the White Sox swept the Mariners in Seattle. Just because a team has a strong home record, perhaps even crazy good, doesn't mean they are "crazy good" at home and will continue to have a crazy good record. Sometimes those come-from-behind-last-at-bat wins you got earlier in the season aren't there in September.

The White Sox will only go as far as their pitching. They have the second-best record in the AL (only the Yankees are better) since May 17 mostly because of their pitching, and their defense that makes their pitching better. If the pitching holds up, they are going to win enough games to put the Tigers in a position to fight hard for a wild card spot and perhaps not get a chance to pitch Verlander against the Yankees or Rangers in the ALDS.

But a couple of games in the standings can disappear quickly. Things might be totally different by Labor Day.

fram40
08-17-2012, 07:14 PM
Tigers were 63 - 55 after 118 games last season. They finished with 95 wins. The Tigers are 63 -55 entering today. If the Tigers finish 32 - 12 again, they will be tough to hold off.

I suspect they won't finish that well. I believe the Sox will win the divison. The Sox superior starting pitch depth, superior relief pitching, and defense should be enough to hold off the Tigers

soxinem1
08-17-2012, 08:52 PM
The sure thing Tigers have been choking for over 100 games. It's no longer a fluke, they are underachievers!

Sox by 2.

I wouldn't even say they are choking, YTD anyway. It was well-publicized even by Leyland before the season began that they would be defensively challenged, would need Porcello, Fister, and Scherzer to deal from day one, and the lineup scoring enough runs to make up for their defensive short-comings.

That also took into consideration that Jose Valverde would be even close to his 2011 self finishing off games, and that someone would establish themselves as the regular 2B and RF. None of these have been evident as of yet.

If anything, Prince Fielder has saved them. That lineup could have really buried them if Cabrera didn't have Prince providing some protection.

Much like the 1984 White Sox, they should have never thought they could just show up and claim another division flag.

The 2012 White Sox needed more 'Ifs' to come true than any other team in baseball that was in position to contend, and most of them have materialized (thus far). Not even most of us figured that would happen, along with a few pleasant call-up surprises along the way.

Nellie_Fox
08-18-2012, 12:20 AM
I think every teams fanbase thinks their manager mismanages its bullpen.:thumbsup: It seems like every fan thinks they know more about using relievers than managers and pitching coaches do.

doublem23
08-18-2012, 06:35 AM
:thumbsup: It seems like every fan thinks they know more about using relievers than managers and pitching coaches do.

If I were the manager, I'd make sure all my pitchers knew not to give up any hits or runs. Duh!

TaylorStSox
08-18-2012, 09:09 AM
IMO, managers have a negligible impact on the outcome of a game. This game's over 100 years old and has changed very little. Neither manager really thinks outside the box. Both managers like to ride their starters, which I agree with. If we're talking entire coaching staffs, I'm going with any team that employs Don Cooper.

Our team's built for the play offs, but getting there is going to be tough. We have better pitching and the ability to create runs. Our defense is light years beyond theirs. Our 1-3, outside of Verlander, are much better. Our pen does scare me because of the youth. Reed and Jones don't have experience in high leverage situations. That could be the difference. Hopefully Crain and BM can balance the youth.

Anyway, advantage White Sox.

hawkjt
08-18-2012, 10:32 AM
Fielder and Cabrera are the two best offensive players in the division,and Verlander is the best pitcher.

Fielder and Cabrera seem to hit homers pretty much every game now...that is a real nice comfort zone for the rest of their team.

Tigers are playing very good ball the last month or so,and so I am not buying this underachieving label. Scherzer is very hot,leading the league in strikeouts,and Fister is also hot. I would have to say right now that Verlander,Fister,Scherzer are the best three man rotation in the division,with Sale,Peavy,Liriano second.

Paulwny
08-18-2012, 11:37 AM
With the exception of the bench, no legitimate PH, the sox team is well rounded. My main concern is the inexperience of the young arms. How they handle the pressure as each game becomes more crucial maybe the deciding factor.

JB98
08-18-2012, 01:52 PM
This is a rough weekend for me to answer that question. Generally speaking, I would say the Sox are the tougher, more balanced team.

But this weekend, the Sox are playing the Royals. That means I'm feeling hopeless and demoralized.

Once the team gets the hell out of Kansas City, I'll go back to feeling better about our chances.

Lip Man 1
08-18-2012, 04:28 PM
Taylor:

A lot of people in baseball feel a manager can win or lose you five games a season...I agree with that attitude.

All you have to do is look at some of the moves Ozzie made the past few years.

Lip

amsteel
08-18-2012, 04:55 PM
Can't look it up now since I'm on a mobile but I'd pick the team that is better in 1-run/extra innings games and whichever team excels in high leverage situations.

SCCWS
08-18-2012, 05:02 PM
.

Our team's built for the play offs, but getting there is going to be tough. We have better pitching and the ability to create runs. Our defense is light years beyond theirs. Our 1-3, outside of Verlander, are much better. Our pen does scare me because of the youth. Reed and Jones don't have experience in high leverage situations. That could be the difference. Hopefully Crain and BM can balance the youth.

Anyway, advantage White Sox.

I agree w you our defense is much better. I have no clue how you decided we have the ability to create runs better than they do. We are decidedly better in home runs. But they are much better in getting walks, they hit .15 points higher, they get a lot more doubles( 50 +) and they strike out a lot less.
I worry that Reed and Jones have limited experience but so do Sale and Quintana. Add in that both of them are being monitored for pitch counts and our pitching may not be better in late September. The 7 games may determine the outcome if one team takes 5 or more.

amsteel
08-18-2012, 10:20 PM
OK after doing a little research, I'd say the Tigers based on the following facts:

Neither team stands out in 1-run games or extra inning games (Sox 18-15 1-run, 5-7 extra innings/DET 15-15 1-run, 3-4 extra innings)

Sox score a few more runs and hit alot more HRs, which is positive, but means they're prone to not scoring without the longball.

Obviously the Sox blow the Tigers away on defense.

Similarly, both teams are pretty even in late & close and high leverage pitching situations.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/split.cgi?t=p&lg=AL&year=2012

However, DET is significantly better batting in late & close and high leverage situations
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/split.cgi?t=b&lg=AL&year=2012

I don't know too much about the Tiger's pitching staff, but I would expect Sale and Quintana to fade a bit due to fatigue, but this could obviously happen to DET's staff as well. In general, Detroit's fielding independant pitching stats are better than the Sox.
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=15,d

Also, Leyland has managed about 3300 ML games and Ventura is...learning.

Lip Man 1
08-18-2012, 11:22 PM
The Tigers play the Royals what, six or seven times, the final two weeks? They crush the Royals...the Sox roll over and die against them.

When all is said and done that could be the difference maker and if that's the case, the Sox have no one to blame for them missing the playoffs (again) but themselves.

Lip

Daver
08-18-2012, 11:51 PM
U2 has The Edge.

Oblong
08-19-2012, 06:59 AM
\
Much like the 1984 White Sox, they should have never thought they could just show up and claim another division flag.


.

I must have missed the article in spring training where the manager and players talked about this... Where do you get the idea that the Tigers didn't think the games didn't need to be played?

SOXSINCE'70
08-19-2012, 07:06 AM
U2 has The Edge.

I shave with Edge shaving cream. Does that count??:D:

amsteel
08-19-2012, 07:49 AM
Since the Sox will inevitably go 15-13 against everyone who isn't the Tigers or Royals down the stretch, it's gonna come down to how they do in the remaining 14 games against those 2.

9-5? Pop the bottles.
4-10? Good luck on the road for one game against Jered Weaver or David Price. Maybe.

Frater Perdurabo
08-19-2012, 08:44 AM
I shave with Edge shaving cream.

You too?