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View Full Version : Bonds believes he belongs in the Hall


thomas35forever
08-07-2012, 02:13 PM
http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/8243675/barry-bonds-believes-belongs-hall-fame?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
And I believe Paterno's statue needs to be returned to its rightful place.

TDog
08-07-2012, 02:48 PM
There is an argument that no matter what you that might earn you a spot in the Hall of Fame, bringing shame and dishonor to the game negates it. That is why Pete Rose doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. There wasn't a Hall of Fame when Joe Jackson's career ended in shame, but being one of the greatest hitters of his era was good enough for only two votes when the Hall of Fame was established and there were no restrictions on who was eligible (Lou Gehrig received votes in the first Hall of Fame ballot, and he was the AL MVP that year).

And that is why Barry Bonds doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. It isn't about stats. It isn't about stats that weren't tainted not being good enough. It's about celebrating what is great about the game. A statue of Joe Paterno doesn't remind people about the greatness of Penn State football as much as it reminds people of the ugly way it ended.

Omar Vizquel is more deserving of the Hall of Fame than Barry Bonds.

Zisk77
08-07-2012, 03:31 PM
The sad thing is, that I belive Bonds would have easily been a hall famer without cheating. He just wouldn't have been the all-hr king. His ego just couldn't allow other people to dominate the headlines. Now, IMHO both Maris and Aaron should be reinstated as year and career hr leaders and Bonds/Sosa/Mcgwire et. al should never ever even sniff the hall.

seventyseven
08-07-2012, 03:53 PM
It is pretty remarkable to look at Bonds' stats and see where the PEDs use began -- circa 1999, after the Sosa/McGuire HR race in 1998, and when Bonds missed 2 months with an elbow injury. Bonds was probably pissed that his .303/.438/.609 line in 1998 with 37 HRs and 122 RBIs (in old candlestick park, no less) only merited 8th in NL MVP voting.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bondsba01.shtml

Sad part is that even if he starts a typical early-30s decline after 1998, his stats are likely enough to get him into the Hall.

What a bum.

WSox597
08-07-2012, 06:41 PM
The only way Bonds should go to the Hall of Fame is if he buys a ticket. Same goes for the other juice-boys. And for the English major, Sosa.

Talk about records that need asterisks, there they are. Baseball put an asterisk on Roger Maris' record, and that was just a few more games. Chemical enhancements should disqualify you from the Hall of Fame in any sport.

SephClone89
08-07-2012, 06:42 PM
The only way Bonds should go to the Hall of Fame is if he buys a ticket. Same goes for the other juice-boys. And for the English major, Sosa.

Talk about records that need asterisks, there they are. Baseball put an asterisk on Roger Maris' record, and that was just a few more games. Chemical enhancements should disqualify you from the Hall of Fame in any sport.

How do we know who juiced?

Dibbs
08-07-2012, 07:30 PM
He is on the short list of greatest to ever play the game. PEDs or not.

thomas35forever
08-07-2012, 07:41 PM
He is on the short list of greatest to ever play the game. PEDs or not.
Yeah, okay. I'll ignore all the baggage he has and campaign for his inclusion in next year's induction ceremony. He clearly belongs up there with Ruth and Mays.

WhiteSox5187
08-07-2012, 11:01 PM
How do we know who juiced?

There are certain guys where it is just so obvious in the change in their physique and an increase in power numbers going into their mid to late 30's (guys like Bonds and Sosa, etc). There are of course the players who have been caught one way or the other (Manny, Ortiz, A-Rod). But then there are others who have that cloud of suspicion over them (like Bagwell, Piazza, etc.) and what do with them is tricky. I would rather see all steroid users kept out of the hall and I suspect that if the names on that 2003 list were released it would provide a bit of clarification.

WhiteSox5187
08-07-2012, 11:01 PM
He is on the short list of greatest to ever play the game. PEDs or not.

Joe Jackson and Pete Rose were on that list too, gambling or not.

Nellie_Fox
08-08-2012, 01:05 AM
Baseball put an asterisk on Roger Maris' record, and that was just a few more games. One of the great myths of sports. There is no "asterisk." There is (or was, I think they eliminated the distinction) a separate record for most home runs in a 154 game season, and most in a 162 game season.

Daver
08-08-2012, 01:16 AM
When do we stop railing about "juiced" hitters and focus the attention on the "juiced" pitchers they were facing?

There number of pitchers caught using steroids is much larger than the number of hitters caught.

tstrike2000
08-08-2012, 01:44 AM
How do we know who juiced?

His head expanded about six sizes.

chicagowhitesox1
08-08-2012, 01:44 AM
I think Bonds was a hofer before his steroid use and whatever he was taking wasn't illegal as far as I know so I wouldn't have a big problem with him getting in. Sammy Sosa on the other hand more than likely would have been an average to good player without steroids so he's a big no for me. I just don't understand how you can keep some of these guys out and put some in like Mike Piazza, Jeff Bagwell or Craig Biggio. Those three will probably get in yet there has always been speculation that they may have used.

Personally I feel the alltime strikeout record is just as tainted as the alltime homerun record. I really feel Nolan Ryan may have used steroids at the end of his career, starting in 1987. I have no real proof but he did play for the Rangers who had tons of steroid users back in the early 90's, His horse trainer was convicted of supplying illegal steroids to the University Of Texas Football team and Nolan Ryan is the only pitcher in the history of baseball who kept having strong years into his 40's. He was striking 300 batters out a year in his mid 40's still. The only other pitchers who performed well like he did in their 40's was knuckleball pitchers or guys like Roger Clemens.

I also feel Shoeless Joe Jackson should be reinstated he has a lifetime ban but his lieftime ban ended when he died. Maybe as some sort of compramise they can put him in after the 2019 election. 100 years is long enough to be left out.

WhiteSox5187
08-08-2012, 02:10 AM
When do we stop railing about "juiced" hitters and focus the attention on the "juiced" pitchers they were facing?

There number of pitchers caught using steroids is much larger than the number of hitters caught.

Juiced hitters get more focus because of all the records that were shattered in the 1990s and early 2000s. There weren't many pitching records that were shattered in that era that I can think of.

Nellie_Fox
08-08-2012, 02:20 AM
When do we stop railing about "juiced" hitters and focus the attention on the "juiced" pitchers they were facing?

There number of pitchers caught using steroids is much larger than the number of hitters caught.

I think Bonds was a hofer before his steroid use and whatever he was taking wasn't illegal as far as I know so I wouldn't have a big problem with him getting in.This again? It was a ****ing FEDERAL OFFENSE and as far as I know a crime in every state. Baseball rules don't trump criminal statutes.

Personally I feel the alltime strikeout record is just as tainted as the alltime homerun record. I really feel Nolan Ryan may have used steroids at the end of his career, starting in 1987. I have no real proof but he did play for the Rangers who had tons of steroid users back in the early 90's, His horse trainer was convicted of supplying illegal steroids to the University Of Texas Football team and Nolan Ryan is the only pitcher in the history of baseball who kept having strong years into his 40's. He was striking 300 batters out a year in his mid 40's still. The only other pitchers who performed well like he did in their 40's was knuckleball pitchers or guys like Roger Clemens.Okay, and Clemens is probably not getting in, either. It's too late to do anything about Ryan; they won't kick him out based on speculation, but writers can not vote for Clemens, and I don't think they will.

ComiskeyBrewer
08-08-2012, 03:42 AM
His head expanded about six sizes.

Yep, after a certain age, your head just stops growing naturally. Unless you start taking roids, then it BLOWS UP like you're 14 all over again.

chicagowhitesox1
08-08-2012, 08:34 AM
This again? It was a ****ing FEDERAL OFFENSE and as far as I know a crime in every state. Baseball rules don't trump criminal statutes.

Okay, and Clemens is probably not getting in, either. It's too late to do anything about Ryan; they won't kick him out based on speculation, but writers can not vote for Clemens, and I don't think they will.

Ok Bonds has a felony for obstruction of justice, I know that and I'm sure most others do too. He went through the courts and did his punishment. So now we should keep him out of the HOF when baseball knew players were using and promoted them anyways? Don't get me wrong I hate the fact Bonds, Sosa and McGwire broke the homerun record but Barry Bonds does have a case for being a hofer while alot of these other guys dont. Before Bonds used steroids he had a war of over 97 at age 33, his ops was somewhere around 170ish, he won 8 gold gloves and had 3 mvp's. Sosa and Mcgwire in their entire careers didn't even reach a 60 career war.

On Roger Clemens, I never said he should be in, I was comparing Ryan to Bonds in which there were rumors surrounding Ryan using steroids, yet he gets named the greatest pitcher in baseball history during the 1999 all century team. I would have to think baseball knew Nolan Ryan used too but when the homerun records were broken and everyone is calling out who used in the 1998-2003 era, players from pre-1993 are forgotten. Believe me there were alot of steroid users before 1993 too. Lenny Dykstra, Pete Incavilgia, Jose Canseco, Brian Downing, Tom House to name a few.

SI1020
08-08-2012, 09:34 AM
When do we stop railing about "juiced" hitters and focus the attention on the "juiced" pitchers they were facing?

There number of pitchers caught using steroids is much larger than the number of hitters caught. If pitchers had an advantage in the "steroid era" they sure had a crazy way of showing it. It was hitting stats that skyrocketed.

Golden Sox
08-08-2012, 09:49 AM
I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that Bonds will eventually be in the BB HOF. He might not live to see it but I still think he will be inducted. Baseball historians have had a way of rewriting history as time has gone by. They have voted people into the HOF who have no business being in there. I never thought I would live to see the day when Hack Wilson, Walter O'Malley and Ron Santo would be in the HOF. After Bonds gets inducted I'm sure Sosa and the rest of the juicers will be inducted also. I read recently in the Sun Times where the Sports Editor Chris DeLuca said he's going to vote for Bonds, Sosa and the rest of the juicers to get into the HOF.

chicagowhitesox1
08-08-2012, 10:40 AM
These voters like De Luca have no business voting if thats how he feels. I think Bonds is a hofer but if I was a voter it would be hard for me to vote for him on his first ballot. Sammy Sosa really has no business being mentioned for the hof.

ClawsDeep
08-08-2012, 11:35 AM
Barry Bond's stat line in 2004 is the most amazing single season stat lines ever. He was intentionally walked 120 times! He walked 232 times that season and only struck out 41 times. As a result of all the walks and still collecting 135 hits (45 HR, .362 BA), he reached base 60.9% of the time. His OPS was a staggering 1.422 and he drove in 101 runs.

I'm still on the fence of whether baseball should allow steriod users into the hall of fame, but Bond's 2004 may be the best offensive season many of us ever witness.

seventyseven
08-08-2012, 01:36 PM
I think Bonds was a hofer before his steroid use and whatever he was taking wasn't illegal as far as I know so I wouldn't have a big problem with him getting in. Sammy Sosa on the other hand more than likely would have been an average to good player without steroids so he's a big no for me. I just don't understand how you can keep some of these guys out and put some in like Mike Piazza, Jeff Bagwell or Craig Biggio. Those three will probably get in yet there has always been speculation that they may have used.


Steroids were banned in baseball since 1991, at the latest.

"The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroids."

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/format/memos20051109?memo=1991&num=1

Noneck
08-08-2012, 02:16 PM
Personally I feel the alltime strikeout record is just as tainted as the alltime homerun record. I really feel Nolan Ryan may have used steroids at the end of his career, starting in 1987. I have no real proof but he did play for the Rangers who had tons of steroid users back in the early 90's, His horse trainer was convicted of supplying illegal steroids to the University Of Texas Football team and Nolan Ryan is the only pitcher in the history of baseball who kept having strong years into his 40's. He was striking 300 batters out a year in his mid 40's still. The only other pitchers who performed well like he did in their 40's was knuckleball pitchers or guys like Roger Clemens.



Actually ryans last 300K year was at the age of 42, 232 at 43, 203 at 44 and 157 at 45. Randy Johnson had quite a few K's in his 40's also. I dont like to accuse someone if there is no evidence of use, except for stats. If I did, the one that has always been in my mind was Davey Johnson's 1973 year and I dont even know what was on the market back then.

downstairs
08-08-2012, 04:01 PM
I 100% agree with him.

Adult tickets are $19.50. And you get $2 off if you're a member of AAA.

Nellie_Fox
08-08-2012, 05:09 PM
Ok Bonds has a felony for obstruction of justice, I know that and I'm sure most others do too. I wasn't talking about the obstruction. You said steroids weren't illegal then. I was pointing out that it was a federal and state crime.

chicagowhitesox1
08-08-2012, 05:52 PM
Actually ryans last 300K year was at the age of 42, 232 at 43, 203 at 44 and 157 at 45. Randy Johnson had quite a few K's in his 40's also. I dont like to accuse someone if there is no evidence of use, except for stats. If I did, the one that has always been in my mind was Davey Johnson's 1973 year and I dont even know what was on the market back then.


Davey Johnson and that entire Braves team benifited from the Braves moving the fences in so Aaron could break Babe Ruth's record easier.

I hate to accuse these guys too but it doesn't make sense why some are off the hook while some aren't.

chicagowhitesox1
08-08-2012, 06:05 PM
Steroids were banned in baseball since 1991, at the latest.

"The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroids."

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/format/memos20051109?memo=1991&num=1

McGwire and alot of players weren't using illegal steroids. They were over the counter drugs sold at every GNC in America. When these drugs got banned and players started using masking agents is when baseball knew they needed to do something.

Some steroids were probably banned in 1991 but back then baseball wasn't even thinking about roids. Baseball was reeling from the Cocaine trials still.

chicagowhitesox1
08-08-2012, 06:15 PM
I wasn't talking about the obstruction. You said steroids weren't illegal then. I was pointing out that it was a federal and state crime.

And thats all he was convicted for; obstruction of justice. Again he went through the courts and they never got him on steroids.

Also I said as far as I know steroids weren't illegal. What he took before baseball started drug testing wasn't illegal. I think what got Bonds in trouble was he was using masking agents after baseball banned what he took.

The movie "Moneyball" gives alot of credit to Billy Beane but Balco was a mile away from both the Athletics and Giants parks. I would have to think alot of players from both of those teams were benifitting from masking agents in the early 2000's.

Noneck
08-08-2012, 07:27 PM
Davey Johnson and that entire Braves team benifited from the Braves moving the fences in so Aaron could break Babe Ruth's record easier.



To go from 5 in baltimore in 72, then to 43 in 73 in atlanta, then down to 15 in atlanta in 74, it had to be more than but I'll drop this now because I dont want to muddy this thread.

chicagowhitesox1
08-08-2012, 08:05 PM
To go from 5 in baltimore in 72, then to 43 in 73 in atlanta, then down to 15 in atlanta in 74, it had to be more than but I'll drop this now because I dont want to muddy this thread.

I thought you were joking around but you might have a point. Tom House was a teammate of his that year. It's really hard to say for players in the 70's. Steroids were around but I don't think they really helped players like they did in the 90's. If he did use; the short fences and maybe a little extra boost probably did help him hit over 40 homeruns. I think the Braves hit 200 homeruns that year. But I always felt most of that was from the short fences the Braves had that year.

Before the 90's I have no idea who used because most players had a normal decline. Except for Nolan Ryan who seemed to get better with age. Some people claim Hank Aaron used steroids, I really have a hard time believing that but there could be some truth to it. Tom House got all this started when he said there were a large amount of players using in the 70's. I don't know why he would lie about something like that either though. Jose Canseco was a liar but we found out he was telling the truth. Not alot of people believed him but he was right.

This is partly why I don't have a huge problem with Bonds getting in. He really was a hofer before he used roids.

Nellie_Fox
08-09-2012, 01:28 AM
And thats all he was convicted for; obstruction of justice. Again he went through the courts and they never got him on steroids.

Also I said as far as I know steroids weren't illegal. How many ways do I have to explain that steroids were a federal and state crime? That means they were ILLEGAL! They just weren't specifically prohibited by MLB rules, but I don't think baseball has to have a rule restating criminal statutes in order for it to be clear that you can't do that. As far as I know, there's no MLB rule against kidnapping the opposing pitcher and keeping him tied up in a broom closet, either, but it's illegal as hell!

chicagowhitesox1
08-09-2012, 01:51 AM
How many ways do I have to explain that steroids were a federal and state crime? That means they were ILLEGAL! They just weren't specifically prohibited by MLB rules, but I don't think baseball has to have a rule restating criminal statutes in order for it to be clear that you can't do that. As far as I know, there's no MLB rule against kidnapping the opposing pitcher and keeping him tied up in a broom closet, either, but it's illegal as hell!

And I'm telling ya these steroids they were taking were legal. They were sold at every GNC store in the country. There illegal now, not when they were taking em. Balco developed masking agents which hid these drugs when they had to take a urine test when they became illegal.

Mark McGwire got caught with Andro in plain sight in his locker. The reporter asked him what it was for and he said he bought it at GNC. This was in 1998.

SoxSpeed22
08-09-2012, 02:01 AM
Steroids were easier to get in other countries. Ken Caminiti went to Mexico to get his juice the year he won MVP. ARod's mystery cousin as well as plenty of other players were able to find stuff in the Dominican. Getting that stuff in was not very difficult.
The reason Bonds won't get in (while he's alive at least) isn't just because of steroids, it's also because he made it a point to antagonize every writer and player he came into contact with. Clemens too.

Nellie_Fox
08-09-2012, 02:07 AM
And I'm telling ya these steroids they were taking were legal. They were sold at every GNC store in the country. There illegal now, not when they were taking em. Balco developed masking agents which hid these drugs when they had to take a urine test when they became illegal.

Mark McGwire got caught with Andro in plain sight in his locker. The reporter asked him what it was for and he said he bought it at GNC. This was in 1998.If you believe McGwire that that was all he was taking, I've got a bridge for sale.

chicagowhitesox1
08-09-2012, 02:41 AM
I agree with everything you say here, I have no idea what McGwire or any of em really took but that was baseballs fault for not testing like the NFL had done. You can fault the players but at the same time you really can't put all the blame on them either. Baseball knew these guys were using but they bought the fans back after the 94 strike so they looked away. If I was a player and I knew steroids could get me a big contract, I cant say I wouldn't do it. Every fan can say how they ruined baseball but put yourself in their shoes.

I'm not a fan of putting em in the hof but again Bonds really was a hofer before he used. The rest of em it's hard to say. This 2013 election will be very interesting and I'm guessing Biggio and Piazza get in but cmon if those two get in Bonds needs to be in too because I seriously doubt those two were clean their whole careers.

chicagowhitesox1
08-09-2012, 02:49 AM
Steroids were easier to get in other countries. Ken Caminiti went to Mexico to get his juice the year he won MVP. ARod's mystery cousin as well as plenty of other players were able to find stuff in the Dominican. Getting that stuff in was not very difficult.
The reason Bonds won't get in (while he's alive at least) isn't just because of steroids, it's also because he made it a point to antagonize every writer and player he came into contact with. Clemens too.

Alot of players got under sportswriters skin, But your probably right it will hurt Bonds more than other suspected users.

SI1020
08-09-2012, 09:41 AM
To go from 5 in baltimore in 72, then to 43 in 73 in atlanta, then down to 15 in atlanta in 74, it had to be more than but I'll drop this now because I dont want to muddy this thread. Sorry, but they weren't all on steroids.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/1009/mlb.posnanski.32.flukiest.hr.seasons/content.1.html

Noneck
08-09-2012, 09:53 AM
Sorry, but they weren't all on steroids.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/1009/mlb.posnanski.32.flukiest.hr.seasons/content.1.html


How do I get to read that article? It looks interesting, Thanks.

SI1020
08-09-2012, 12:34 PM
How do I get to read that article? It looks interesting, Thanks. I think what you see is what you get there. It's just a photo montage with some stats for each guy.

Noneck
08-09-2012, 12:40 PM
I think what you see is what you get there. It's just a photo montage with some stats for each guy.

Oh Ok, Looks like it could have been a cool article because there are some definite juicers on there, some for sure nots and then the maybes.

SI1020
08-09-2012, 02:49 PM
Oh Ok, Looks like it could have been a cool article because there are some definite juicers on there, some for sure nots and then the maybes. I agree with your assessment.

insp
08-10-2012, 06:40 AM
And thats all he was convicted for; obstruction of justice. Again he went through the courts and they never got him on steroids.

Also I said as far as I know steroids weren't illegal. What he took before baseball started drug testing wasn't illegal. I think what got Bonds in trouble was he was using masking agents after baseball banned what he took.

The movie "Moneyball" gives alot of credit to Billy Beane but Balco was a mile away from both the Athletics and Giants parks. I would have to think alot of players from both of those teams were benifitting from masking agents in the early 2000's.


In other words, if you can get away with cheating and law breaking, then that's just dandy and they should be able to get into the HOF anyways.

As for De Luca, he's just a print troll.

white sox bill
08-10-2012, 08:18 AM
I never really followed this whole soap opera, but I assume Barry never had a Drs script did he? Back in his era there were plenty of Drs albeit quacks that were willing to write them under the guise of HRT given to men past 35 or so.

chicagowhitesox1
08-10-2012, 11:33 AM
In other words, if you can get away with cheating and law breaking, then that's just dandy and they should be able to get into the HOF anyways.

As for De Luca, he's just a print troll.

Well I don't like it and I hate that Aarons record was broken by a bunch of cheats but Bonds was pretty damn good. I mean even on steroids he had arguably the best stats ever.

Nellie_Fox
08-11-2012, 01:16 AM
I know that people scoff at the notion, but there is a "character" qualification for the HOF as well. It's not just about stats. And save telling me about Cobb and Ruth and their flaws; it was a different time with different standards for character.

WLL1855
08-11-2012, 02:58 AM
Well I don't like it and I hate that Aarons record was broken by a bunch of cheats but Bonds was pretty damn good. I mean even on steroids he had arguably the best stats ever.

I have to admit I'm pretty torn about what to do about the suspected 'users' from the PED era. Bonds, in my opinion and as much as I think the guy is a colossal ass, would have probably been a hall of famer without the taint of PED's on his career. His dumb ass couldn't resist the siren call of them though.

At least I have the satisfaction of looking at his mug shot whenever I want. Whatever misery he gets from this point forward in his life he has certainly earned.

Frater Perdurabo
08-11-2012, 08:14 AM
And save telling me about Cobb and Ruth and their flaws; it was a different time with different standards for character.

What is that supposed to mean? I'm not being an ass; I really want to know what you mean by this, because it sounds like you might be saying that the modern era has higher character standards than the early 20th century did.

RKMeibalane
08-11-2012, 09:32 PM
What is that supposed to mean? I'm not being an ass; I really want to know what you mean by this, because it sounds like you might be saying that the modern era has higher character standards than the early 20th century did.

It's generally accepted that Cobb was a poor teammate and a racist. Although no one condones his behavior, most people recognize that at the time he was playing in the Major Leagues, there were a number of players with a similar disposition. Were someone like Cobb in baseball today, it's likely that he would keep his social and political views to himself, lest he find himself on the waiver wire for bigotry. If you need an example, look no further than John Rocker, who was never the same after his infamous 1999 Sports Illustrated tirade.

Frater Perdurabo
08-11-2012, 09:48 PM
It's generally accepted that Cobb was a poor teammate and a racist. Although no one condones his behavior, most people recognize that at the time he was playing in the Major Leagues, there were a number of players with a similar disposition. Were someone like Cobb in baseball today, it's likely that he would keep his social and political views to himself, lest he find himself on the waiver wire for bigotry. If you need an example, look no further than John Rocker, who was never the same after his infamous 1999 Sports Illustrated tirade.

Thank you for the explanation.

If I were dictator over the HOF, I would admit the gamblers (Rose) and the cheaters (roiders like Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, etc.), but only after their death, and their interpretative information (plaques, AV info, web pages) would be brutally honest about their accomplishments and their faults.

SI1020
08-11-2012, 10:52 PM
I can't get into this in the manner that I would like due to the rules. I've thought for a long time that it is a major mistake to judge those that preceded us through the prism of today's standards. Ty Cobb was a fiery competitor with a mean streak. He was also a very complicated multi faceted individual. A product of his era, his region and greatly marked by a unique and searing traumatic family event just prior to his debut in MLB. Before his death he donated money that helped establish a hospital for patients of all races in his part of Georgia. This has evolved into a regional health system.

http://www.tycobbhealthcare.org/

The popularly accepted one dimensional view of Cobb as a Southern white Protestant who despised blacks, Catholics and anyone who wasn't like him was created by sportswriter Al Stump, his first biographer.

Viva Medias B's
08-11-2012, 11:12 PM
Barry Bonds does not get in the Hall of Fame - alive or posthumously. Even if he only used steroids during a portion of his career, his entire career is tainted for that usage however brief. It's like that old saying "If part of a statement is false, the entire statement is false." Same principle applies here.

Nellie_Fox
08-12-2012, 02:01 AM
What is that supposed to mean? I'm not being an ass; I really want to know what you mean by this, because it sounds like you might be saying that the modern era has higher character standards than the early 20th century did.Not higher, because that's a value judgment. Just different. There are lots of things that were acceptable then that are frowned on now, just as there are things that were frowned on then that are acceptable now.

Just as an example from outside of baseball, my dad (who was a cop before me) told me that in the 40's, nobody batted an eye if he had a beer with lunch while in uniform and on the clock. Today, they'd go nuts. I could give plenty of other examples, both in baseball and out, but it would probably start discussions that we don't want to get into on here.

SoxSpeed22
08-12-2012, 02:55 AM
I know that people scoff at the notion, but there is a "character" qualification for the HOF as well. It's not just about stats. And save telling me about Cobb and Ruth and their flaws; it was a different time with different standards for character.You do have to wonder how long Cobb would have lasted in today's major leagues. We don't know how he would have dealt with the media today. And this is also a guy who picked a fight with a heckler and would have had to deal with plenty of suspensions for repeatedly spiking players.