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Lip Man 1
08-01-2012, 05:23 PM
Much like Sale. Pitching rotation for the Angels / Royals series has been announced:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-quintana-on-8-days-rest-before-next-start-20120801,0,2408017.story

Lip

kobo
08-01-2012, 05:47 PM
I don't think this news was unexpected. For the rest of this month I expect the Sox to give Sale and Quintana as much rest as possible.

Lip Man 1
08-01-2012, 07:14 PM
More and more I think smarter teams should go into a season with six starters not five, to be ready in case of injury or to be used from time to time to give a break to the regular rotation.

For whatever reason or reasons, pitchers just can't stand up to the load in today's game.

Getting Liriano if he just pitches decently was a stroke of genius by Kenny.

Lip

kittle42
08-01-2012, 09:08 PM
More and more I think smarter teams should go into a season with six starters not five, to be ready in case of injury or to be used from time to time to give a break to the regular rotation.

Ed Farmer's head just exploded.

DSpivack
08-01-2012, 09:14 PM
Ed Farmer's head just exploded.

Part of me wonders what came out, the other part doesn't want to know.

Huisj
08-01-2012, 09:36 PM
More and more I think smarter teams should go into a season with six starters not five, to be ready in case of injury or to be used from time to time to give a break to the regular rotation.

For whatever reason or reasons, pitchers just can't stand up to the load in today's game.

Getting Liriano if he just pitches decently was a stroke of genius by Kenny.

Lip

I wonder sometimes how much of that is the high-effort style that seems to be more widespread than in years past. It seems like there are more pitchers than ever who throw hard now, and I wonder if that velocity comes at a price. Granted there are some who are just plain freaks who throw super hard with a very calm delivery like Verlander, and ever era has a few of those guys who seem bulletproof, but it seems like every team brings up pitcher after pitcher these days who come out trying to throw 95.

Quintana doesn't exactly fit that mold, but Sale certainly does.

slavko
08-01-2012, 09:43 PM
I wonder sometimes how much of that is the high-effort style that seems to be more widespread than in years past. It seems like there are more pitchers than ever who throw hard now, and I wonder if that velocity comes at a price. Granted there are some who are just plain freaks who throw super hard with a very calm delivery like Verlander, and ever era has a few of those guys who seem bulletproof, but it seems like every team brings up pitcher after pitcher these days who come out trying to throw 95.

Quintana doesn't exactly fit that mold, but Sale certainly does.

95. That's part of it. But Q doesn't fit the hypothesis. Stoney was musing the other day about guys "Back Then" throwing fastball, curve, maybe a little slider, change. Guys now, he went on, throw a big slider, a cutter, splitter, etc and these may be the cause of the problem. And it is a problem.

Lip Man 1
08-01-2012, 11:24 PM
In the July 26 print edition of Sports Illustrated (with a Penn State helmet on the cover) there is a fascinating story on Orioles first round draft pick Dylan Bundy. He's considered the best prospect to come out of high school since Kerry Wood.

The story gets into his training, how he was brought up and the limitations the O's are putting on him regarding innings, pitch counts and so on.

Greg Maddux is interviewed in the story as well.

They come up with some numbers that make you think twice about work load limits on young pitchers.

I don't have a link for this very long story but here are a few paragraphs from the story that talk about limits in a different light: (I manually typed them out...)

"Twenty-eight years ago, the Cubs drafted a 6-foot righthander out of Valley High in Las Vegas. In his first full professional season, as a 19-year-old, Greg Maddux made 27 starts at Class A, threw six complete games and logged 186 innings. "I don't remember a pitch count," says Maddux, who won 355 games and works now as a special adviser for the Rangers.

"If you looked like you were getting tired, if there was a change in arm slot, they took you out. I've watched 50 or 60 minor league games over the last three years. I haven't seen a complete game yet."

The first five high school pitchers drafted and signed in 1984 were Tony Menendez, Pete Smith, Maddux, Tom Glavine and Al Leiter. They threw an average of 156 innings in their first full year out of high school. All of them reached the majors, albeit with varying degrees of success. Throughout the 1980s and '90s, teams routinely let pitchers exceed 150 innings in their first year out of high school. Then, about 10 years ago, such workloads began to disappear. Since 2002, only three of 44 first-round high school pitchers have thrown 150 innings in their first full pro seasons-none since Chris Volstad threw 152 for the Marlins in 2006.

What happened? The high-profile physical breakdowns of Prior and Wood, which were often blamed on overuse, sent a shudder through the industry. Signing bonuses and salaries surged, representing greater financial stakes for clubs. More important, medical advancements and research were able to determine in clinical terms the risk factors of pitching. The data were more reliable than the eyes of pitching coaches watching for changes in arm slot. Overuse, especially at a young age, was defined as one of the greatest risk factors.

"Most doctors say younger throwing athletes need more time to develop," Byrnes says. "Does pushing a guy outweigh the risks? Most teams will tell you no. We also look at a lot more data now: pitch counts in three-start increments, the percentage of breaking balls and high stress innings ... there are a few more layers now to avoid the hot spots."

By some measures, the accepted practice of having high school first-rounders throw less has not worked.

Among the 102 pitchers in the 1981-2000 sample of high school first-rounders, those who threw 150 innings in their first full year were much more likely to reach the majors (78%) than those who didn't (51%), and more than twice as likely to reach 20 career wins (57%) than those who didn't (27%).

"I can see both sides," Maddux says. "But I think it takes them longer to develop [now]. The easiest way to improve as a pitcher is to throw. Cutting the throwing is cutting the improvement. You do it to reduce injuries. But is a pitcher going to develop at a reasonable rate?

"I also think there is a lot of development that comes from pitching a little tired. Anybody can do well when they feel great. But what happens when you're tired and you have to rely on pitch selection and location? Where is the ability to get a hitter out more than one way? I don't see a lot of that."

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Regarding my original comment I think you need six guys who can start if needed, you only use five in the rotation regularly. The guy who is throwing the worst goes into the pen as a long relief guy / spot starter if double headers take place and to strecth out the other starters from time to time giving them an extra day of rest.

If I owned a team that's what I'd insist my G.M. do. Give me six reliable guys who can start if needed.

Lip

amsteel
08-01-2012, 11:44 PM
We all knew this point was coming. Hopefully the offense and Floyd and Humber can pick up the slack.

TDog
08-02-2012, 05:29 PM
Every contending team has a few pitchers pitching through dead-arm period right now. Maybe that's why Justin Verlander hasn't been sharp in his last two starts. Maybe that's why Matt Cain struggled against the Mets in five innings last night. It is interesting that the Whtie Sox seem to have so much pitching (although seemingly not enough) that they are working to nurse young pitchers through it in an unusual wary.

Peavy and Liriano, I would think, would be worked through their dead-arm periods because it's something they have done in the past, probably as recently as this season.

DonnieDarko
08-02-2012, 07:08 PM
Regarding my original comment I think you need six guys who can start if needed, you only use five in the rotation regularly. The guy who is throwing the worst goes into the pen as a long relief guy / spot starter if double headers take place and to strecth out the other starters from time to time giving them an extra day of rest.

If I owned a team that's what I'd insist my G.M. do. Give me six reliable guys who can start if needed.

Lip

I'd be all for that. Don't know why they don't do it now, honestly.

soxinem1
08-03-2012, 04:58 PM
I'd be all for that. Don't know why they don't do it now, honestly.

Most teams have difficulty finding 3-4 starters just to get them through the season today.

Getting a decent fifth guy is a bonus. Getting a sixth is almost unprecedented.

The Immigrant
08-04-2012, 04:19 AM
I'd be all for that. Don't know why they don't do it now, honestly.

Payroll costs, roster constraints, lack of SP talent, etc.

fram40
08-04-2012, 12:21 PM
Most teams have difficulty finding 3-4 starters just to get them through the season today.

Getting a decent fifth guy is a bonus. Getting a sixth is almost unprecedented.

And yet the Sox have flirted with the idea two consectutive years. weird.

It's not a horrible idea. Even if #6 sucks. It does give the other guys a rest. Last night Humber pitched into the 6th. Against a worse offensive team, maybe he gets into the 7th. What if "wasting" one game every six games gives you a better chance of winning 4 of the other 5 games? I

You don't need to win every game. Just more than 1/2. 4 out of every 6 is spectacular. 7 out of 12 is .583 or 94 wins. Perhaps having a 6th starter helps get 7 - 5 every 12 games.

If the Sox go .583 the rest of the season (33 - 24) they get 91wins. I like their chances to win this division with 91 wins