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View Full Version : *Official* Rant and Rave 7/19/2012 Postgamer


Frater Perdurabo
07-19-2012, 08:59 PM
Fire away...

Viva Medias B's
07-19-2012, 08:59 PM
There isn't a worse way to lose.

doublem23
07-19-2012, 09:00 PM
Probably going to have to find a way to score more than a run per game sooner or later

Blueprint1
07-19-2012, 09:00 PM
Two runs in two days does not win you many games.

cleanwsox
07-19-2012, 09:00 PM
2nd Quintana gem we've wasted now.

:angry:

guillensdisciple
07-19-2012, 09:00 PM
Well, looks like this series against Detroit might be pretty indicative of where we'll stand.

Oh and ye, I don't like how Ventura manages this bullpen.

Chicago5oooh
07-19-2012, 09:00 PM
Ugh. Garbage. Cue the puke.

SephClone89
07-19-2012, 09:00 PM
Jose Quintana just doesn't know how to win.

JB98
07-19-2012, 09:00 PM
We got what we deserved. Quintana was the only one who showed up tonight. There was never a single moment where I thought the Sox were going to win this game.

Not one single moment.

Our offense is terrible.

GoGoCrede
07-19-2012, 09:00 PM
I was busy most of the night and had this on in the background, but was unfortunate enough to look up at the exact moment the ball was hit. Oh well. Tough one but in heartbreak terms, there have been worse these past few years.

WhiteSox5187
07-19-2012, 09:00 PM
Matt Thornton should not be used in the 9th inning when the Sox are leading. Some pitchers just are not meant to be closers. Thornton is one of them.

peelwonder
07-19-2012, 09:00 PM
I can't question Robin because he's forgotten more about baseball than any of us know but Thornton to start the ninth?

chaotic8512
07-19-2012, 09:00 PM
Absolutely brutal. Many questionable decisions by Robin in this one, none bigger than putting a questionable Thornton in for the heart of their order.

Bitter pill to swallow going into the Detroit series. Hell of a game by Quintana too, what a shame.

TheVulture
07-19-2012, 09:01 PM
Quintana throws eight scoreless and we lose. Ain't that a bitch.

RockJock07
07-19-2012, 09:01 PM
Cody Ross is like babe ****ing ruth in this series

russ99
07-19-2012, 09:01 PM
Yes, our offense did little, but Ventura should know that Matt Thornton should not be closing games.

RockJock07
07-19-2012, 09:01 PM
Absolutely brutal. Many questionable decisions by Robin in this one, none bigger than putting a questionable Thornton in for the heart of their order.

Bitter pill to swallow going into the Detroit series. Hell of a game by Quintana too, what a shame.

He was going to face 2 lefties, I'm ok with that decision.

aryzner
07-19-2012, 09:01 PM
I thought it looked like Buchholz left a lot of pitches up today that the Sox just did not hit.

soltrain21
07-19-2012, 09:01 PM
Well, looks like this series against Detroit might be pretty indicative of where we'll stand.

Oh and ye, I don't like how Ventura manages this bullpen.

Not really.

Frater Perdurabo
07-19-2012, 09:01 PM
Probably going to have to find a way to score more than a run per game sooner or later

That would be nice.

Escobar should have made the throw and thus produced the 5-4-3 GIDP. That would be a much different inning and probably was the difference between a W and a L.

voodoochile
07-19-2012, 09:01 PM
****!

Viva Medias B's
07-19-2012, 09:02 PM
Advice to Ranger: Don't take any phone callls tonight.

Martinigirl
07-19-2012, 09:02 PM
That one is on Robin.

There is no logic in putting Thorton to start 9th and then a rookie, that is used to starting an inning with bases empty, to clean up the Thorton mess. I know Reed gave up the homerun but he should have started the inning. I just don't understand the handling of the pitchers in the ninth at all.

socko82
07-19-2012, 09:03 PM
4th time this year Quintana has pitched 8 shutout innings and he has a grand total of 1 win (vs. Texas) to show for it!

CHISOXFAN13
07-19-2012, 09:03 PM
Outmanaged by Bobby Valentine. That's a real kick in the balls.

Oh, and this offense sucks.

Hendu
07-19-2012, 09:03 PM
Felt this coming from a mile away. Especially when Thornton started the inning. Still, gotta turn that double play then who knows if this turns out differently. The series in Detroit is going to be big.

LITTLE NELL
07-19-2012, 09:03 PM
You don't win many games scoring one lousy run in Fenway.
Felt it in my bones that we would lose it in the 9th.

Rohan
07-19-2012, 09:03 PM
Cody Ross with that friggen bat flip...

russ99
07-19-2012, 09:04 PM
That would be nice.

Escobar should have made the throw and thus produced the 5-4-3 GIDP. That would be a much different inning and probably was the difference between a W and a L.

No, this is proof yet again that Thornton isn't a closer. One thing doesn't go his way and he unravels.

ChiSoxFann
07-19-2012, 09:04 PM
Awful offense, poor bullpen and not turning that DP ball. We really don't deserve to win games like this. Jose is the only reason we had a chance.

Is anyone else worried about Reed too? I know it was a tough spot but he missed badly on that pitch.

Mohoney
07-19-2012, 09:04 PM
Forget trading for a starter. Trade for a closer if one becomes available. Reed needs to be demoted to a setup role, and Thornton needs to never see the 9th again.

I wholeheartedly disagree with anybody laying this at the feet of Ventura. That bullpen is in shambles right now. I can't see how he can manage it any differently.

For anybody saying "Why Thornton?" to start that inning, I think that Reed meatball showed why Ventura avoided using him until he absolutely had to.

Thornton and Reed both sucked, and have sucked for a while now.

JB98
07-19-2012, 09:04 PM
He was going to face 2 lefties, I'm ok with that decision.

Crawford is 7-for-17 lifetime against Thornton.

Gonzalez bats .311 against lefties, as opposed to .287 against righties.

It was a poor decision by Robin. I'm sorry, but it was.

Boondock Saint
07-19-2012, 09:04 PM
Offense sucked.

Ventura's bullpen management sucked.

Thornton sucked.

Quintana deserved better than to have the rest of the team collapse around his efforts, and Reed deserves better than to have his manager questioning his ability to do the job he's done well to this point. If Reed is available to pitch at all, he should be starting off the 9th until he shows that he can't. Ventura went with Thornton, who has a history of being a ****ty closer, is showing a decreasing ability to get out lefties, against a hitter who owns him, and didn't pull him until it was too late. Ventura crushed his closer's confidence, and cost us a game in the process. That was easily the dumbest thing he's done all year.

kevingrt
07-19-2012, 09:05 PM
Gut check 101.

And I hate Boston.

And why does Thornton suck so often in the 9th inning?

SCCWS
07-19-2012, 09:05 PM
Matt Thornton should not be used in the 9th inning when the Sox are leading. Some pitchers just are not meant to be closers. Thornton is one of them.


Thornton threw a double play ball that Escobar flubbed.

pczarapa
07-19-2012, 09:06 PM
4th time this year Quintana has pitched 8 shutout innings and he has a grand total of 1 win (vs. Texas) to show for it!

Between Peavy and Quintana I don't know which one has had the most miserable luck with the Sox not scoring runs. Very disheartening loss.

GlassSox
07-19-2012, 09:06 PM
He was going to face 2 lefties, I'm ok with that decision.

I don't give a **** what hand they were, Thornton has shown us he is not a closer. This was a save situation for our closer Reed.

Boondock Saint
07-19-2012, 09:06 PM
]I can't question Robin because he's forgotten more about baseball than any of us know[/B] but Thornton to start the ninth?

Apparently, he's forgetting the **** he's supposed to remember, like who his closer is.

Viva Medias B's
07-19-2012, 09:06 PM
We have to be on top of things in Detroit.

WhiteSox5187
07-19-2012, 09:07 PM
Thornton threw a double play ball that Escobar flubbed.

He gave up two hits too. Thornton has a tendency to start giving up hits when he is in the ninth and you can't have that out of your closer.

balke
07-19-2012, 09:07 PM
Hawk jinxed us by celebrating the defense too hard too soon.

Youk's value shows even in this loss - pretty confident he would've turned that double play.

CHISOXFAN13
07-19-2012, 09:07 PM
We have to be on top of things in Detroit.

A loss like that with 35 on the mound for Detroit tomorrow is a recipe for disaster.

LoveYourSuit
07-19-2012, 09:07 PM
2 runs in 2 games then you get to face Verlander. :rolleyes:
Thornton is officialy a Bum. Can't get lefty outs. Bum.

Reed, still will cut him some slack but I have not been impressd all year.


This sucks.


Bullpen might be a bigger issue than SP.


Fix this Kenny

:angry:

russ99
07-19-2012, 09:07 PM
We have to be on top of things in Detroit.

Certainly. If our offense doesn't wake up, Verlander may no-hit us.

Tragg
07-19-2012, 09:08 PM
Cooper/Ventura's bullpen usage is just bizarre. This is the 2nd time they've pulled Quintana only to have it blow up.
They let Peavy and Sale pitch 120; Quintana, a soft tosser, gets yanked at 103.
They let the pitcher yesterday pitch until he gave up a zillion runs. Today, they pull a guy having a stellar game.

Ridiculous. There was no reason to pull Quintana.

Mohoney
07-19-2012, 09:08 PM
I don't give a **** what hand they were, Thornton has shown us he is not a closer. This was a save situation for our closer Reed.

Except that Reed has been dog**** lately.

GoGoCrede
07-19-2012, 09:08 PM
Certainly. If our offense doesn't wake up, Verlander may no-hit us.

Ugh, can you imagine? Not enough barf bags in existence if that came to pass.

SCCWS
07-19-2012, 09:08 PM
Outmanaged by Bobby Valentine. That's a real kick in the balls.

Oh, and this offense sucks.


Valentine didn't make any moves. If he did maybe the outcome would have been better. Red Sox won 5 out of 7 in the series.

RockJock07
07-19-2012, 09:09 PM
Crawford is 7-for-17 lifetime against Thornton.

Gonzalez bats .311 against lefties, as opposed to .287 against righties.

It was a poor decision by Robin. I'm sorry, but it was.

Reed is a rookie closer and Crawford is 3 games into his season. Fair point on Gonzalez but this is not on Robin.

doublem23
07-19-2012, 09:09 PM
A loss like that with 35 on the mound for Detroit tomorrow is a recipe for disaster.

Or the two are not related whatsoever

cv sox fan
07-19-2012, 09:10 PM
thanks thorton the sooner you leave the sox the better. he never gets 3up and down. ventura should have let the kid go the distance.we need major league closer. do these guys realize were in a play off race? there really playing with no enthusiasm. painful to watch our offense.

soltrain21
07-19-2012, 09:10 PM
Or the two are not related whatsoever

Yeah. Baseball doesn't work like that.

JB98
07-19-2012, 09:11 PM
Reed is a rookie closer and Crawford is 3 games into his season. Fair point on Gonzalez but this is not on Robin.

What does that have to do with anything? He eats Thornton alive. This was Quintana's game. He should have been sent out for the ninth.

Boondock Saint
07-19-2012, 09:11 PM
Except that Reed has been dog**** lately.

Converted 7 of his last 8 saves before tonight, with three other scoreless innings of non-save situation pitching in there, too.

RockJock07
07-19-2012, 09:11 PM
A lot armchair managers posting tonight.

pczarapa
07-19-2012, 09:12 PM
Valentine didn't make any moves. If he did maybe the outcome would have been better. Red Sox won 5 out of 7 in the series.

Sometimes no moves is better than trying to outthink the room. They should have let Quintana throw the 9th.

SCCWS
07-19-2012, 09:12 PM
No, this is proof yet again that Thornton isn't a closer. One thing doesn't go his way and he unravels.

How did he unravel. He threw the double play and it got blown. He then gut a guy hitting .400 in July to hit another ground ball but Beckham was playing up the middle for a lefthander instead of a normal double play position.

CHISOXFAN13
07-19-2012, 09:12 PM
Valentine didn't make any moves. If he did maybe the outcome would have been better. Red Sox won 5 out of 7 in the series.

He left Ross in. That's a pretty damn good decision in my mind.

doublem23
07-19-2012, 09:12 PM
Cooper/Ventura's bullpen usage is just bizarre. This is the 2nd time they've pulled Quintana only to have it blow up.
They let Peavy and Sale pitch 120; Quintana, a soft tosser, gets yanked at 103.
They let the pitcher yesterday pitch until he gave up a zillion runs. Today, they pull a guy having a stellar game.

Ridiculous. There was no reason to pull Quintana.

Oh please, you're not in the ****ing dugout, you have no idea how Quintana is holding up considering he is now well over his career mark in IP as a professional.

But, I forgot, everyone here would be a better manager/pitching coach than the two guys probably doing the best job in the American League. :rolleyes:

I don't think Robin should have had Reed throw a HR to Ross. I would have called for the GIDP.

soltrain21
07-19-2012, 09:13 PM
A lot armchair managers posting tonight.

A lot of insane overreacting, too. Reed has been good lately. One bad pitch.

guillensdisciple
07-19-2012, 09:13 PM
A lot armchair managers posting tonight.

That's why I get paid the big bucks.

12 bucks an hour :)

CHISOXFAN13
07-19-2012, 09:13 PM
Or the two are not related whatsoever

Oh, I know. I'm just frustrated and that's certainly not the guy I want to see pitching tomorrow after a punch in the gut loss like tonight.

fram40
07-19-2012, 09:13 PM
Forget trading for a starter. Trade for a closer if one becomes available. Reed needs to be demoted to a setup role, and Thornton needs to never see the 9th again.

I wholeheartedly disagree with anybody laying this at the feet of Ventura. That bullpen is in shambles right now. I can't see how he can manage it any differently.

For anybody saying "Why Thornton?" to start that inning, I think that Reed meatball showed why Ventura avoided using him until he absolutely had to.

Thornton and Reed both sucked, and have sucked for a while now.

I knew it was a loss as soon as soon as Thornton was in.

Here's how Robin manages it differently: If he wants the lefty/lefty matchup so bad, leave Quintana in. If Q gets Crawford, leave him in for Pedroia. If he gets Pedroia, let him pitch to Gonzalez. No reason to bring in a lefty in that situation. None at all - he had a lefty who has been very impressive

Boondock Saint
07-19-2012, 09:13 PM
A lot armchair managers posting tonight.

It was a ****ty decision, there's no reasoning behind it. Addison Reed is your closer, if he's available, you let him close the game out.

LoveYourSuit
07-19-2012, 09:13 PM
A lot armchair managers posting tonight.


With the crap bullpen we have, I thnk 90% of fans where questioning Quintana not finishing this game the minute Thornton took the mound.

Nothing armchair here.

doublem23
07-19-2012, 09:14 PM
A lot armchair managers posting tonight.

A good manager would have told his team to win instead of lose. Robin doesn't know what he's doing!!!

GlassSox
07-19-2012, 09:14 PM
Except that Reed has been dog**** lately.

His record does not indicate that

soltrain21
07-19-2012, 09:14 PM
Oh, I know. I'm just frustrated and that's certainly not the guy I want to see pitching tomorrow after a punch in the gut loss like tonight.

Or maybe we kick him in the ****ing mouth.

chisoxfanatic
07-19-2012, 09:14 PM
Forget trading for a starter. Trade for a closer if one becomes available. Reed needs to be demoted to a setup role.

Reed is our closer. I think that inning goes much differently had he started the 9th.

CHISOXFAN13
07-19-2012, 09:15 PM
Or maybe we kick him in the ****ing mouth.

Sign me up. Would love to eliminate this sour taste with a sweep in Detroit.

TommyGavinFloyd
07-19-2012, 09:16 PM
Except that Reed has been dog**** lately.

He looked good Tuesday, when he successfully cleaned up the mess made by...hmm, who was it again? I thought we cut Ohman but he sure gave Thornton some pointers.

Woofer
07-19-2012, 09:16 PM
I have to keep telling myself that I never expected the Sox to be in first place at any time this year. All in all, it's been a fun season. Between the starting pitching having health problems, the shaky bullpen and the sporadic offense, this team finds many ways to lose.

SCCWS
07-19-2012, 09:17 PM
[QUOTE=Tragg;2961836
Ridiculous. There was no reason to pull Quintana.[/QUOTE]

The 4 hits he gave up in 7th and 8th was the reason. He was lucky to get out of the 7th.

GoGoCrede
07-19-2012, 09:17 PM
Sign me up. Would love to eliminate this sour taste with a sweep in Detroit.

We're due. The team has often roared back after a loss like this, I'm not too worried. Also, hello 91 guests! :wink:

Domeshot17
07-19-2012, 09:17 PM
well, the bullpen and offense left the door open for Detroit this weekend. Time to put up or shut up. For a young team, we need to win a game. If we get swept, we could see a tailspin. Need atleast 1 of these.

SI1020
07-19-2012, 09:17 PM
You don't win many games scoring one lousy run in Fenway.
Felt it in my bones that we would lose it in the 9th. I'm barely into the thread and I think you are the third poster to say this. Make it one more. I knew they'd lose in the bottom of the 9th. Damn I wanted to be wrong, to be a Debbie Downer, but I knew it.

RockJock07
07-19-2012, 09:17 PM
What does that have to do with anything? He eats Thornton alive. This was Quintana's game. He should have been sent out for the ninth.

huh? your first post was how Thornton because he was a lefty should not be in the game and now you wanted Quintana.

Dick Allen
07-19-2012, 09:18 PM
Q throws 8 shutout innings, and two relievers can't even get two outs without giving up three runs. Too bad they can't dock the mother******* a game's pay. And **** the Tigers and Verlander.

Boondock Saint
07-19-2012, 09:18 PM
A good manager would have told his team to win instead of lose. Robin doesn't know what he's doing!!!

I get what you're saying, but it was a stupid call. If you're going to go to the bullpen, go to your closer in the 9th.

LoveYourSuit
07-19-2012, 09:20 PM
The 4 hits he gave up in 7th and 8th was the reason. He was lucky to get out of the 7th.

I will take Quintana's luck over the pile of **** coming out of that pen right now.

mikesouthside
07-19-2012, 09:21 PM
I just can't stand seeing Matt in there at all anymore. Use to be a lock down set up guy, now....hate to see him. No faith in him. Ross and that flip? Game 7? Nope. As much as I wanna say no biggie let's get them tomorrow.....I can't cause this one has made me ill and I feel like the water is filling the boat.

SI1020
07-19-2012, 09:22 PM
Cooper/Ventura's bullpen usage is just bizarre. This is the 2nd time they've pulled Quintana only to have it blow up.
They let Peavy and Sale pitch 120; Quintana, a soft tosser, gets yanked at 103.
They let the pitcher yesterday pitch until he gave up a zillion runs. Today, they pull a guy having a stellar game.

Ridiculous. There was no reason to pull Quintana. Unless Quintana told RV he was gassed I totally agree.

amsteel
07-19-2012, 09:22 PM
If management thought the Sox were gonna compete this year, Robin would not have been hired. You're not supposed to be learning the ropes in a division chase.

It looks like we're back to April. Inconsistent offense, shaky bullpen.

Lip Man 1
07-19-2012, 09:23 PM
Maybe it's just me but it seems the Sox have had more gut busting losses this year then I can think of in a long time.

7th game this year the Sox lost when having a lead in the 7th inning or later.

4th game this year where they had a lead going into the 9th inning and lost.

Reed has been nailed for the last two games in the category above and both times he lost the game for Q. In both occasions Robin elected not to have Q start the 9th inning.

That being said, the offense looks terrible since last Saturday.

Lip

JB98
07-19-2012, 09:23 PM
huh? your first post was how Thornton because he was a lefty should not be in the game and now you wanted Quintana.

Crawford vs. Quintana: 0-for-3 with three weak grounders.

Crawford vs. Thornton: 7-for-17.

I never once said Thornton shouldn't have been in the game because he was a lefty. I said Thornton should not have been in there because Crawford owns him. Further, using a lefty against Gonzalez is not an advantage. No reason for Thornton to be in this game. None at all.

VMSNS
07-19-2012, 09:23 PM
Watching Ross flip his bat and then admire his shot made my blood boil. Then Valentine waiting for him at home plate with that faux pumped-up look on his face made it even worse.

Does anyone else get the feeling that Thornton just hasn't been the same since his appearance in the All Star Game two seasons ago?

doublem23
07-19-2012, 09:24 PM
If management thought the Sox were gonna compete this year, Robin would not have been hired. You're not supposed to be learning the ropes in a division chase.

Robin's probably one of the main reason we're even thinking we can make the postseason.

SaltyPretzel
07-19-2012, 09:25 PM
Watching Ross flip his bat and then admire his shot made my blood boil. Then Valentine waiting for him at home plate with that faux pumped-up look on his face made it even worse.

Does anyone else get the feeling that Thornton just hasn't been the same since his appearance in the All Star Game two seasons ago?

He hasn't.

SI1020
07-19-2012, 09:25 PM
A lot armchair managers posting tonight. What self respecting baseball fan isn't a bit of an armchair manager?

guillensdisciple
07-19-2012, 09:25 PM
I just can't stand seeing Matt in there at all anymore. Use to be a lock down set up guy, now....hate to see him. No faith in him. Ross and that flip? Game 7? Nope. As much as I wanna say no biggie let's get them tomorrow.....I can't cause this one has made me ill and I feel like the water is filling the boat.

I don't get that feeling. The sox are wayyyy outplaying what I thought they would show this year. All of this is gravy. We should be happy with how we have performed and go for the ride this year. If things pan out, this team could do something special. This bullpen is full of rookies and we have to remember that they will probably be our Achilles heal. As they should be considering their inexperience.

When it comes to the final month and if we're still in it, it might get ugly because of this rookie bullpen and their inexperience. If they pull it together, the Sox might do something special.

I believe this hitting dry spell is temporary.

ChiSoxGal85
07-19-2012, 09:26 PM
Matt Thornton should not be used in the 9th inning when the Sox are leading. Some pitchers just are not meant to be closers. Thornton is one of them.

I don't give a **** what hand they were, Thornton has shown us he is not a closer. This was a save situation for our closer Reed.

I knew it was a loss as soon as soon as Thornton was in.

:nod: I left to walk the dog as soon as I saw Thornton was in. Why not let Quintana start the inning and let Reed finish if needed?

I can't add anything original to the rest of the rants (lack of offense etc.) that have been posted here, so I'll just say...:angry:

WhiteSox5187
07-19-2012, 09:28 PM
I get what you're saying, but it was a stupid call. If you're going to go to the bullpen, go to your closer in the 9th.

Or maybe not have a guy on the mound who Crawford is 5 for 18 off of.

LoveYourSuit
07-19-2012, 09:29 PM
Watching Ross flip his bat and then admire his shot made my blood boil. Then Valentine waiting for him at home plate with that faux pumped-up look on his face made it even worse.

Does anyone else get the feeling that Thornton just hasn't been the same since his appearance in the All Star Game two seasons ago?


I wish Carlton Fisk was the guy behind the plate tonight.

I'm tired of seeing this ****, The tub of lard in Detroit keeps doing that also.

Hate it.

PalehosePlanet
07-19-2012, 09:29 PM
First Thornton and AJ make a terrible pitch selection/calling on a 1-2 count to Crawford, then Eduardo blows the DP, then Gonzalez gets a hit on an 0-2 pitch on another terrible pitch call and execution. How else was this game going to end but by throwing a fastball to a guy who can't hit a breaking ball?

Looking very slumpy suddenly, and at a terrible time, of course.

SCCWS
07-19-2012, 09:29 PM
Crawford vs. Quintana: 0-for-3 with three weak grounders.

Crawford vs. Thornton: 7-for-17.

I never once said Thornton shouldn't have been in the game because he was a lefty. I said Thornton should not have been in there because Crawford owns him. Further, using a lefty against Gonzalez is not an advantage. No reason for Thornton to be in this game. None at all.


If you used Crawford versus Thornton, why didn't you also use Gonzalez versus Thornton. He was 0 for his career against him.

GlassSox
07-19-2012, 09:30 PM
Watching Ross flip his bat and then admire his shot made my blood boil. Then Valentine waiting for him at home plate with that faux pumped-up look on his face made it even worse.

Does anyone else get the feeling that Thornton just hasn't been the same since his appearance in the All Star Game two seasons ago?

Me

Dibbs
07-19-2012, 09:31 PM
I think Ozzie's spirit somehow took over Ventura's body tonight. Possible since Ozmeister is in Chicago. Thornton starting the 9th is a straight Ozzie move.

guillensdisciple
07-19-2012, 09:32 PM
I think Ozzie's spirit somehow took over Ventura's body tonight. Possible since Ozmeister is in Chicago. Thornton starting the 9th is a straight Ozzie move.

We're in Boston? Are you saying ozzie is a wizard?

JB98
07-19-2012, 09:32 PM
If you used Crawford versus Thornton, why didn't you also use Gonzalez versus Thornton. He was 0 for his career against him.

I already posted my reason for that.

WhiteSox5187
07-19-2012, 09:32 PM
Robin's probably one of the main reason we're even thinking we can make the postseason.

Robin's done a fine job but let's not go nuts here. The reason we are contending is because Dunn, Peavy and Rios are having huge bounce back years and Chris Sale and Quintana are having fantastic years as well.

Foulke You
07-19-2012, 09:32 PM
Watching Ross flip his bat and then admire his shot made my blood boil. Then Valentine waiting for him at home plate with that faux pumped-up look on his face made it even worse.

Does anyone else get the feeling that Thornton just hasn't been the same since his appearance in the All Star Game two seasons ago?

I've said it after a few of Thornton's bad outings this year. The nice and easy 97-98 mph he used to blow by hitters is gone. He is pretty much 94-95 now and it is pretty straight. Matt needs to mix his breaking pitches more which he was doing recently prior to this road trip. When he throws all heaters these days, they usually hit him even when he gets ahead in the count. Tonight and even the HR to Shoppach on Tuesday was a good example of that.

slavko
07-19-2012, 09:33 PM
Matt Thornton should not be used in the 9th inning when the Sox are leading. Some pitchers just are not meant to be closers. Thornton is one of them.

Watching Ross flip his bat and then admire his shot made my blood boil. Then Valentine waiting for him at home plate with that faux pumped-up look on his face made it even worse.

Does anyone else get the feeling that Thornton just hasn't been the same since his appearance in the All Star Game two seasons ago?

He was the losing pitcher in that ASG. He got hit but survived his last time out and it wasn't in the 9th. But he can't close, never could. He's not what he used to be. But Reed gave up the HR.

Want a proven closer for the stretch run? Try www.provenclosers.com (http://www.provenclosers.com).

Boondock Saint
07-19-2012, 09:33 PM
If you used Crawford versus Thornton, why didn't you also use Gonzalez versus Thornton. He was 0 for his career against him.

A total of eight plate appearances, all but two of them occurring seven or more years ago might have something to do with it.

PeteWard
07-19-2012, 09:33 PM
I was not happy that RV did not pinch hit Youk for Escobar with two on in the 9th....Right Lefty match be damned.

amsteel
07-19-2012, 09:33 PM
Robin's probably one of the main reason we're even thinking we can make the postseason.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's more Dunn and Rios than Ventura.

Soxman219
07-19-2012, 09:34 PM
This loss is on Robin, PERIOD.

Why put Thornton in if everybody knows he has a history of blowing games late. He can't get anyone out without giving up runs. Crawford owns him and Gonzalez hits lefties well. This was a recipe for a L and I knew it once Thornton came in.

Whoever said Reed has been bad needs their eyes checked. He's been a shut down closer other than KC; he was put in an horrible spot tonight.

Either start Reed in the 9th or leave Quintana to face Crawford who he owned tonight.

This loss hurts, but it can be easily be forgotten if the Sox do their job in Detroit. Offense needs to step up big time since the Sox have the pitching advantage this series.

Finally, **** Boston and anyone that likes them. Gatorade shower at home plate? Really? Good luck getting a WC because you're not catching NY.

Tragg
07-19-2012, 09:38 PM
Oh please, you're not in the ****ing dugout, you have no idea how Quintana is holding up considering he is now well over his career mark in IP as a professional.

But, I forgot, everyone here would be a better manager/pitching coach than the two guys probably doing the best job in the American League. :rolleyes:

I don't think Robin should have had Reed throw a HR to Ross. I would have called for the GIDP.
Oh horrors, I'm second-guessing a manager. That's what this board is about - opinions. Give me a ****ing break on your condescending lectures.

I'm sure that rookie was feeling good and fresh as he gave up his 8th run yesterday.

Mohoney
07-19-2012, 09:38 PM
He looked good Tuesday, when he successfully cleaned up the mess made by...hmm, who was it again? I thought we cut Ohman but he sure gave Thornton some pointers.

He gave up 2 hits and a run in the Friday game in KC, gave up a hit in the Sunday game in KC, did well Tuesday, and served up a 3 run meatball today.

He has been dog**** on this road trip.

SCCWS
07-19-2012, 09:38 PM
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's more Dunn and Rios than Ventura.


Or since Robin arrived Dunn and Rios started hitting again.

Quentin08
07-19-2012, 09:40 PM
:nod: I left to walk the dog as soon as I saw Thornton was in. Why not let Quintana start the inning and let Reed finish if needed?


I turned it off too when I saw Thornton was in. I couldn't believe Q was pulled. Even if the Sox had won the game, I would still be upset by that move. Q was virtually unhittable tonight. He had his A game all night. And when he was pulled after the 8th, all it did was give the Red Sox some hope. It changed their whole mentality. Leave Q in and it would've been a likely 1-2-3 bottom of the 9th.

mahagga73
07-19-2012, 09:40 PM
Advice to Ranger: Don't take any phone callls tonight.
Roungey is a second rate radio jockey. He spent 10 minutes last night telling everyone they were so wrong, that Thornton is still a good pitcher , he even tried to play off his complete and utter failure as a closer as bad luck. Totally ignoring Thorntons 40 percent closing success rate. Every time Thornton comes in it seems the Sox chances of winning leave.

amsteel
07-19-2012, 09:43 PM
Or since Robin arrived Dunn and Rios started hitting again.

Or since last St Patrick's Day Dunn and Rios started hitting again. Who knows why they're hitting. No one can prove anything either way.

doublem23
07-19-2012, 09:43 PM
Q was virtually unhittable tonight. He had his A game all night. And when he was pulled after the 8th, all it did was give the Red Sox some hope. It changed their whole mentality. Leave Q in and it would've been a likely 1-2-3 bottom of the 9th.

Except that the "unhittable" Quintana allowed 4 hits in the 7th and 8th inning and really, was only saved from blowing the game in the 7th thanks to an incredible play by Alexei.

Boondock Saint
07-19-2012, 09:44 PM
He gave up 2 hits and a run in the Friday game in KC, gave up a hit in the Sunday game in KC, did well Tuesday, and served up a 3 run meatball today.

He has been dog**** on this road trip.

The Friday game in KC was his only blown save in nearly a month.

So what if he gave up one ****ing hit in an appearance? It didn't blow the game, he got the save.

Tonight, he was put in a ****ty situation, with the tying run in scoring position, when he's used to coming in with the bases empty. He's a rookie, and was put in a position to be perfect or give up the lead. He's been fine lately, and you using one blown save in nearly a month and a game in which he gave up a single and nothing else shows how flimsy your argument is.

SCCWS
07-19-2012, 09:45 PM
I turned it off too when I saw Thornton was in. I couldn't believe Q was pulled. Even if the Sox had won the game, I would still be upset by that move. Q was virtually unhittable tonight. He had his A game all night. And when he was pulled after the 8th, all it did was give the Red Sox some hope. It changed their whole mentality. Leave Q in and it would've been a likely 1-2-3 bottom of the 9th.


Red Sox announcers were amazed he came out for the 8th after giving up 3 hits. He was lucky to get out of the 7th. He then got into trouble in the 8th w another hit and a wild pitch. He had his A game through 6 and deserved a much better fate from his bullpen.

fram40
07-19-2012, 09:46 PM
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's more Dunn and Rios than Ventura.

Sure - those two bouncing back is huge.

But so is the more relaxed atmosphere, the emphasis on baseball, and more importantly, the emphasis on fundamentals (actually focusing on them rather than just talking about them), the emphasis on one game at a time, forgetting the last game - whether a tough loss or a dramatic walk-off win. Play the next game.

How they play this weekend - win or lose - will say a lot about this team and their character. The series sets up nice for the Sox pitching-wise. Timing-wise - not so much. End of a three city road trip, late flight in, and a Detroit team starting to win regularly. A detorit team that was home this week and had an afternoon game today. With their ace ready to go.

Let's go Sox

JB98
07-19-2012, 09:46 PM
The Friday game in KC was his only blown save in nearly a month.

So what if he gave up one ****ing hit in an appearance? It didn't blow the game, he got the save.

Tonight, he was put in a ****ty situation, with the tying run in scoring position, when he's used to coming in with the bases empty. He's a rookie, and was put in a position to be perfect or give up the lead. He's been fine lately, and you using one blown save in nearly a month and a game in which he gave up a single and nothing else shows how flimsy your argument is.

I agree. I'm not too pissed at Reed. I do think the pitch selection to Ross was bad, but he was put in a tough spot.

I would have allowed Quintana to start the ninth, but I wouldn't be bitching this loudly if Reed had been the choice to begin the inning.

But Thornton? :scratch::angry:

Foulke You
07-19-2012, 09:47 PM
This loss hurts, but it can be easily be forgotten if the Sox do their job in Detroit. Offense needs to step up big time since the Sox have the pitching advantage this series.


Sox have shown themselves to be a resilient team this year with the ability to shake off losses like this. They can definitely take it to Detroit this weekend. The offense can be very feast or famine this year though. Still a pretty HR reliant offense. Reminds me of the 2003 squad a bit as far as inconsistent production.

WhiteSox5187
07-19-2012, 09:48 PM
Except that the "unhittable" Quintana allowed 4 hits in the 7th and 8th inning and really, was only saved from blowing the game in the 7th thanks to an incredible play by Alexei.

I don't mind that Quintana wasn't out there but I really don't see why Thornton was out there. I don't get why you don't just go to your closer there.

Lip Man 1
07-19-2012, 09:48 PM
Sox have lost three games this year 1-0.

Sox have also lost two more games when they led 1-0 going into the 9th inning.

Gut twisting losses.

Lip

Mohoney
07-19-2012, 09:48 PM
The Friday game in KC was his only blown save in nearly a month.

So what if he gave up one ****ing hit in an appearance? It didn't blow the game, he got the save.

Tonight, he was put in a ****ty situation, with the tying run in scoring position, when he's used to coming in with the bases empty. He's a rookie, and was put in a position to be perfect or give up the lead. He's been fine lately, and you using one blown save in nearly a month and a game in which he gave up a single and nothing else shows how flimsy your argument is.

I stand by what I said. He has been dog**** on this road trip, and I'm not going to blame Ventura for trying to get the lefty outs with Thornton, who has also been dog****.

With two bad options, you might as well play the mythical percentage game.

Kenny needs to get this team a closer.

mahagga73
07-19-2012, 09:48 PM
Red Sox announcers were amazed he came out for the 8th after giving up 3 hits. He was lucky to get out of the 7th. He then got into trouble in the 8th w another hit and a wild pitch. He had his A game through 6 and deserved a much better fate from his bullpen.
Someday it's going to dawn on Ventura that Thornton stinks.

doublem23
07-19-2012, 09:50 PM
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's more Dunn and Rios than Ventura.

I guess that all depends on whether or not you think Dunn and Rios bouncing back during Robin's first season as manager is just a happy coincidence or if Robin and his coaching staff deserve some of the credit for their turn around.

You're opinion is as good and valid as mine, and probably a few years ago, I'd have said the manager is largely a symbolic role that has no significant impact on his players' performance, but after watching Ozzie torpedo the Sox the last few years with the overtly toxic atmosphere he created, I have to say that even if Robin is just an average MLB manager, he's still doing a lot to get the most talent out of his players.

Looks like there's enough talent on this roster that the Sox don't need a Joe Maddon-esque mastermind. They just need someone to keep the ship from taking on water.

amsteel
07-19-2012, 09:53 PM
Are we potentially to the point where Reed, amongst others in the bullpen have been thoroughly scouted?

Boondock Saint
07-19-2012, 09:54 PM
I stand by what I said. He has been dog**** on this road trip, and I'm not going to blame Ventura for trying to get the lefty outs with Thornton, who has also been dog****.

With two bad options, you might as well play the mythical percentage game.

Kenny needs to get this team a closer.

Go ahead and stand by it. It's still bull****. Reed has been good, and you want to blame him for the situation he was put in, while Thornton has sucked, but you're not going to blame Ventura for using him in a situation where he's failed repeatedly and against a hitter who has hit him consistently?

Sounds logical to me.

Lip Man 1
07-19-2012, 09:54 PM
Some were wondering if it was Robin who made the call tonight or if Cooper had anything to do with it. For what it's worth, Robin told Gonzo it was his call.

Lip

Soxman219
07-19-2012, 09:54 PM
I stand by what I said. He has been dog**** on this road trip, and I'm not going to blame Ventura for trying to get the lefty outs with Thornton, who has also been dog****.

With two bad options, you might as well play the mythical percentage game.

Kenny needs to get this team a closer.

Reed, a rookie, has blown 3 saves all year. Sorry, Robin's decision was absolutely terrible. I rather have Quintana finish than Thornton's bum butt out there.

Boondock Saint
07-19-2012, 09:55 PM
Are we potentially to the point where Reed, amongst others in the bullpen have been thoroughly scouted?

You don't have to scout a bad pitch.

LoveYourSuit
07-19-2012, 09:59 PM
Some were wondering if it was Robin who made the call tonight or if Cooper had anything to do with it. For what it's worth, Robin told Gonzo it was his call.

Lip


He really said that?

What else did he say, "Water is wet?"

Come on Gozo, way to report on the tough questions there. :rolleyes:

GlassSox
07-19-2012, 09:59 PM
I guess that all depends on whether or not you think Dunn and Rios bouncing back during Robin's first season as manager is just a happy coincidence or if Robin and his coaching staff deserve some of the credit for their turn around.

You're opinion is as good and valid as mine, and probably a few years ago, I'd have said the manager is largely a symbolic role that has no significant impact on his players' performance, but after watching Ozzie torpedo the Sox the last few years with the overtly toxic atmosphere he created, I have to say that even if Robin is just an average MLB manager, he's still doing a lot to get the most talent out of his players.

Looks like there's enough talent on this roster that the Sox don't need a Joe Maddon-esque mastermind. They just need someone to keep the ship from taking on water.

If only these intangibles about the manager and players were measurable then there would be lots of fuel for the stats guys to argue about. The arguments would likely be that the measurements are flawed.

I agree with you that Robin has been doing a great job of getting a lot from the players and in my opinion we would be much worse if Ozzie was still here.

Mohoney
07-19-2012, 10:00 PM
Go ahead and stand by it. It's still bull****. Reed has been good, and you want to blame him for the situation he was put in, while Thornton has sucked, but you're not going to blame Ventura for using him in a situation where he's failed repeatedly and against a hitter who has hit him consistently?

Sounds logical to me.

So you would rather sink or swim with Reed than trade for a legit closer?

Besides, aren't legit closers supposed to be able to get two outs in the 9th, even if (GASP!) there are runners on base? Aren't they not supposed to serve up a 3 run homer to the first batter they face?

What part of Reed's road trip thus far suggests that we should just stick with him for the rest of the season without trying to trade for a legit closer?

PaleHoser
07-19-2012, 10:01 PM
I was not happy that RV did not pinch hit Youk for Escobar with two on in the 9th....Right Lefty match be damned.

+1. Would much rather have Youkilis hit with two runners in scoring position than a bench player.

Thornton obviously doesn't believe in his breaking stuff. Is it too late to learn a straight change?

RockJock07
07-19-2012, 10:02 PM
Someday it's going to dawn on Ventura that Thornton stinks.

No, Ventura needs to try to give some of the guys on the team confidence that if he needs Matt to get a lefty out in a spot situation that he'll go to him.

Boondock Saint
07-19-2012, 10:03 PM
So you would rather sink or swim with Reed than trade for a legit closer?

Besides, aren't legit closers supposed to be able to get two outs in the 9th, even if (GASP!) there are runners on base? Aren't they not supposed to serve up a 3 run homer to the first batter they face?

What part of Reed's road trip thus far suggests that we should just stick with him for the rest of the season without trying to trade for a legit closer?

Reed has 15 saves to just three blown saves. Would I like to stick with that kind of success? Hell yes, I would.

edit: I also think it's epically stupid to give up on a rookie closer after three blown saves.

mahagga73
07-19-2012, 10:03 PM
No, Ventura needs to try to give some of the guys on the team confidence that if he needs Matt to get a lefty out in a spot situation that he'll go to him.
isn't workin

Mohoney
07-19-2012, 10:05 PM
Reed, a rookie, has blown 3 saves all year. Sorry, Robin's decision was absolutely terrible. I rather have Quintana finish than Thornton's bum butt out there.

I would have rather had Quintana out there, too. The question here was whether Ventura made a terrible decision by putting Thornton in to start the 9th instead of Reed.

I said that I'm not going to blame him for putting in Thornton, who has sucked on the road trip, instead of Reed, who has also sucked on the road trip.

People disagree. I'm fine with that. However, the question presupposes that Quintana wasn't going to start the 9th under any circumstances.

Boondock Saint
07-19-2012, 10:06 PM
I would have rather had Quintana out there, too. The question here was whether Ventura made a terrible decision by putting Thornton in to start the 9th instead of Reed.

I said that I'm not going to blame him for putting in Thornton, who has sucked on the road trip, instead of Reed, who has also sucked on the road trip.

People disagree. I'm fine with that. However, the question presupposes that Quintana wasn't going to start the 9th under any circumstances.

This is dead wrong.

tstrike2000
07-19-2012, 10:06 PM
This game was a killer to lose, even with the Sox only scoring two runs over the past two games. The workload for Thornton has caught up to him.

RockJock07
07-19-2012, 10:06 PM
Reed, a rookie, has blown 3 saves all year. Sorry, Robin's decision was absolutely terrible. I rather have Quintana finish than Thornton's bum butt out there.

Well Robin has guided a team to 1st place that no one on this board thought they'd be at this point.

Thornton throws gas and was brought in to get lefties out, it didn't work out, simple as that.

Quentin08
07-19-2012, 10:07 PM
Well, it could've been worse. At least it didn't go into extras late into the night where we eventually lose the game and a few more players to the DL. The Sox need to pick themselves up, put this heart breaker behind them, and focus on kicking some Tiger ass. It's not gonna be easy but we have our gamer on the mound tomorrow night. Huge game tomorrow night for Peavy!

Mohoney
07-19-2012, 10:07 PM
Reed has 15 saves to just three blown saves. Would I like to stick with that kind of success? Hell yes, I would.

edit: I also think it's epically stupid to give up on a rookie closer after three blown saves.

An 83% success rate isn't anything to write home about for a closer.

Soxman219
07-19-2012, 10:08 PM
Well Robin has guided a team to 1st place that no one on this board thought they'd be at this point.

Thornton throws gas and was brought in to get lefties out, it didn't work out, simple as that.

It hasn't worked for a while now. Thornton did the last year and he's doing it again this year. He cannot be trusted in late game situations anymore.

TomParrish79
07-19-2012, 10:10 PM
board is full of Larussas & Lasorda's tonight

mahagga73
07-19-2012, 10:10 PM
It hasn't worked for a while now. Thornton did the last year and he's doing it again this year. He cannot be trusted in late game situations anymore.
They need a middle reliever to replace Thornton worst than anything right now. He's hot garbage.

mahagga73
07-19-2012, 10:11 PM
board is full of Larussas & Lasorda's tonight
Thanks for your insightful and enlightening commentary. Seems to me that's what fan boards were invented for .

Noneck
07-19-2012, 10:13 PM
Maybe I missed an update but it was reported that Youk was available to ph.
If so why didnt he ph in the 9th for Escobar?

Boondock Saint
07-19-2012, 10:14 PM
An 83% success rate isn't anything to write home about for a closer.

Watch rookie pitchers often, do you? I guess he'll never get better, and he should be sent to the scrap heap. GMAB.

Heath Bell, Brandon League, John Axford, Chad Qualls, Rafael Betancourt, Francisco Rodriguez, Jose Valverde, Jonathan Broxton- those veterans all have more blown saves this season than Reed.

JB98
07-19-2012, 10:14 PM
An 83% success rate isn't anything to write home about for a closer.

It's about average.

Valverde is at 81 percent. Broxton's at 84. Perez is the best in our division at 92.

TDog
07-19-2012, 10:19 PM
Cody Ross is like babe ****ing ruth in this series

Just like he was in the 2010 postseason, which is one of the biggest reasons that Aaron Rowand and Juan Uribe each have two World Series rings.

The White Sox should have won this game, of course. They took the lead into the bottom of the ninth. Thornton started becasue he matched up well against Crawford and Gonzalez. Gonzalez was hitless agaisnt Thornton for his career. If Escobar gives Beckham a better feed on the Pedroia grounder, there could be two out and none on for Gonzalez. It isn't like brining in Reed was guaranteed to result in a better outcome. Reed faced just the one hitter today and didn't get anyone out. And as much trouble as Quintana had getting through the heart of the Red Sox order in the seventh, I couldn't imagine him starting the ninth.

Buchholtz pitched a great game. The White Sox did a good job to manufacture a run against him with Dunn taking third on Konerko's ground single to right. The Sox really should have scored in the top of the ninth. If Ross had knocked down the Beckham double that bounced into the stands to keep it from bouncing into the stands, Viciedo probably would have scored. Maybe the biggest non-move of the game -- although it is entirely hindsight -- was Ventura not pinch-hitting for Escobar there. Escobar doesn't drive in the two runners in scoring position and doesn't start the double play that may have been there in the bottom of the ninth. That may be things Ventura is thinking about after the heartbreaking loss.

What makes this loss even tougher is that the White Sox have effectively given up in two games on this roadtrip in anticipation of future games. The White Sox on Saturday didn't go to their bullpen, protecting it from overuse in a tie game with Peavy obviously tiring allowing the Royals to put that game out of reach. Wednesday, in order to hold back their best pitchers to match up against the Tigers, they brought up a minor leaguer and left him in the game to give up seven unanswered runs without getting out of the fourth inning. Of course, the Tigers gave Verlander one more day of rest than I thought they would coming out of his All-Star inning so that he would be able to match up against the White Sox, but the Tigers have managed to pick up a couple of games on the Sox since the weekend.

For all the excitement over how this White Sox team is so much different than the teams over the last few years, if you look back to July 19, 2010, the Sox were 10 games over .500, 2.5 games in first place. The starting rotation was in trouble with Peavy gone and Garcia fading. The dynamics of this year's team are different, and it was the Twins in second (maybe scarier than the Tigers, maybe not). But the White Sox aren't any better positioned in the race than they were two years ago.

What happens from here on out is how fans will remember the season.

Soxman219
07-19-2012, 10:22 PM
Just like he was in the 2010 postseason, which is one of the biggest reasons that Aaron Rowand and Juan Uribe each have two World Series rings.

The White Sox should have won this game, of course. They took the lead into the bottom of the ninth. Thornton started becasue he matched up well against Crawford and Gonzalez. Gonzalez was hitless agaisnt Thornton for his career. If Escobar gives Beckham a better feed on the Pedroia grounder, there could be two out and none on for Gonzalez. It isn't like brining in Reed was guaranteed to result in a better outcome. Reed faced just the one hitter today and didn't get anyone out. And as much trouble as Quintana had getting through the heart of the Red Sox order in the seventh, I couldn't imagine him starting the ninth.

Buchholtz pitched a great game. The White Sox did a good job to manufacture a run against him with Dunn taking third on Konerko's ground single to right. The Sox really should have scored in the top of the ninth. If Ross had knocked down the Beckham double that bounced into the stands to keep it from bouncing into the stands, Viciedo probably would have scored. Maybe the biggest non-move of the game -- although it is entirely hindsight -- was Ventura not pinch-hitting for Escobar there. Escobar doesn't drive in the two runners in scoring position and doesn't start the double play that may have been there in the bottom of the ninth. That may be things Ventura is thinking about after the heartbreaking loss.

What makes this loss even tougher is that the White Sox have effectively given up in two games on this roadtrip in anticipation of future games. The White Sox on Saturday didn't go to their bullpen, protecting it from overuse in a tie game with Peavy obviously tiring allowing the Royals to put that game out of reach. Wednesday, in order to hold back their best pitchers to match up against the Tigers, they brought up a minor leaguer and left him in the game to give up seven unanswered runs without getting out of the fourth inning. Of course, the Tigers gave Verlander one more day of rest than I thought they would coming out of his All-Star inning so that he would be able to match up against the White Sox, but the Tigers have managed to pick up a couple of games on the Sox since the weekend.

For all the excitement over how this White Sox team is so much different than the teams over the last few years, if you look back to July 19, 2010, the Sox were 10 games over .500, 2.5 games in first place. The starting rotation was in trouble with Peavy gone and Garcia fading. The dynamics of this year's team are different, and it was the Twins in second (maybe scarier than the Tigers, maybe not). But the White Sox aren't any better positioned in the race than they were two years ago.

What happens from here on out is how fans will remember the season.

Well, at least Floyd and Danks are coming back soon, and they do well against Detroit.

Mohoney
07-19-2012, 10:27 PM
Watch rookie pitchers often, do you? I guess he'll never get better, and he should be sent to the scrap heap. GMAB.

Heath Bell, Brandon League, John Axford, Chad Qualls, Rafael Betancourt, Francisco Rodriguez, Jose Valverde, Jonathan Broxton- those veterans all have more blown saves this season than Reed.

Key word: rookie. I never said that Addison Reed will be bad the rest of his career. I said that I don't want to mortgage this season's potential with a rookie closer.

Reed's 83% save rate puts him squarely in the middle of all MLB primary closers, with 3 other guys tied with him. If I can get something better than middle-of-the-road production out of the closer's spot, I'm definitely exploring it.

Boondock Saint
07-19-2012, 10:29 PM
Key word: rookie. I never said that Addison Reed will be bad the rest of his career. I said that I don't want to mortgage this season's potential with a rookie closer.

Reed's 83% save rate puts him squarely in the middle of all MLB primary closers, with 3 other guys tied with him. If I can get something better than middle-of-the-road production out of the closer's spot, I'm definitely exploring it.

This team has far more pressing issues than its closer.

Noneck
07-19-2012, 10:30 PM
This team has far more pressing issues than its closer.

And good luck getting one now.

Mohoney
07-19-2012, 10:31 PM
It's about average.

Valverde is at 81 percent. Broxton's at 84. Perez is the best in our division at 92.

Like you said, it's about average. I would like to see something better than average in the closer's spot, because then the rest of your bullpen can solidify around that consistency.

Plus, everybody seems to forget that Valverde went 49 for 49 last year. Throwing his name around in this argument like he's some kind of journeyman washout like Chad Qualls is a fallacy, pure and simple.

JB98
07-19-2012, 10:31 PM
And good luck getting one now.

Broxton and Brett Myers could be had, but neither one represents a clear upgrade over Reed.

In fact, I'd stay far, far away from Broxton.

Noneck
07-19-2012, 10:33 PM
Broxton and Brett Myers could be had, but neither one represents a clear upgrade over Reed.

In fact, I'd stay far, far away from Broxton.


That was my point, a quality closer is impossible to get now. And why use resources for ones that are no better than Reed.

amsteel
07-19-2012, 10:36 PM
2nd half bullpen ERA is now 6.64. If Kenny makes a move, I think that's where you have to start.

However, I think this weekend will go a long a way in determining whether a move is made.

Also, how ****ing ****house will this place go if the Sox cough up first place next week with a loss to the Twins?

JB98
07-19-2012, 10:36 PM
Like you said, it's about average. I would like to see something better than average in the closer's spot, because then the rest of your bullpen can solidify around that consistency.

Plus, everybody seems to forget that Valverde went 49 for 49 last year. Throwing his name around in this argument like he's some kind of journeyman washout like Chad Qualls is a fallacy, pure and simple.

Valverde is at 88 percent for his career, FWIW. Obviously, he was above career norms last year. This year, he's below.

Mohoney
07-19-2012, 10:38 PM
This team has far more pressing issues than its closer.

I didn't say that it didn't. There are definitely more pressing issues with this team right now. Konerko has hit 3 homers in 2 months. The middle relief corps is in shambles. Floyd gets derailed just when he looked like he was turning the corner.

What I said was that Kenny needs to get this team a closer if one becomes available. My hope is that solidifying the closer's role has a trickle-down effect on the rest of the bullpen, and it seems like the one single move that could have the most impact.

We're not acquiring another everyday player for this team, and the market for starting pitching looks astronomical at this point. Therefore, getting a closer seems to make the most sense.

JB98
07-19-2012, 10:44 PM
I didn't say that it didn't. There are definitely more pressing issues with this team right now. Konerko has hit 3 homers in 2 months. The middle relief corps is in shambles. Floyd gets derailed just when he looked like he was turning the corner.

What I said was that Kenny needs to get this team a closer if one becomes available. My hope is that solidifying the closer's role has a trickle-down effect on the rest of the bullpen, and it seems like the one single move that could have the most impact.

We're not acquiring another everyday player for this team, and the market for starting pitching looks astronomical at this point. Therefore, getting a closer seems to make the most sense.

But who? Do you like Broxton or Myers? I really don't.

GABP
07-19-2012, 10:46 PM
Well, at least Floyd and Danks are coming back soon, and they do well against Detroit.

Danks isn't coming back anytime soon, according to reports this week

Mohoney
07-19-2012, 10:47 PM
But who? Do you like Broxton or Myers? I really don't.

What would JJ Putz cost? He's been fantastic for a team that should be officially out of contention by the deadline.

Noneck
07-19-2012, 10:48 PM
We're not acquiring another everyday player for this team, and the market for starting pitching looks astronomical at this point. Therefore, getting a closer seems to make the most sense.


No one really knows what the price for a quality starter will be yet. It may be a lot lower than what you think.

Soxman219
07-19-2012, 10:49 PM
Danks isn't coming back anytime soon, according to reports this week

He won't be back until September right?

WhiteSox5187
07-19-2012, 10:54 PM
He won't be back until September right?

He might not be coming back at all this year. No one really knows.

JB98
07-19-2012, 10:54 PM
What would JJ Putz cost? He's been fantastic for a team that should be officially out of contention by the deadline.

Putz had a really poor start to the year. His overall numbers aren't better than Reed's, although he's been trending in the right direction lately. It's always buyer beware with him injury-wise, though.

CoopaLoop
07-19-2012, 10:56 PM
So Robin Ventura takes out Quintana with 79 pitches after 8 shutout inning to bring in Reed and now takes out Quintana to bring in a lefty reliever before going to his closer in the 9th inning.

Just awful.

Reed is your closer. He has been that for a long time, how in the **** do you all of a sudden choose matchups in the final frame.


Brutal decision. Brutal loss.

Urban Legend
07-19-2012, 11:06 PM
If you used Crawford versus Thornton, why didn't you also use Gonzalez versus Thornton. He was 0 for his career against him.


Gonzalez was 0 for 7 with a walk lifetime against Thorton, but any Sox fan could have predicted that Gonzalez was going to get a hit. Why? Because Thornton has no confidence anymore...I think even Thornton woyuld have told you that Gonzalez was going to get a hit. And watching the NESN telecast last night, they raved the whole game about how well Ross has been swinging the bat...I thought the only way Reed could keep Ross from hitting a homr eun was if Ross hit a screaming line drive instead of a fly ball.

Zero = Confidence in our bullpen right now.

rpmorri
07-19-2012, 11:07 PM
Matt Thornton should not be used in the 9th inning when the Sox are leading. Some pitchers just are not meant to be closers. Thornton is one of them.

Matt Thornton should not be used ever. Period. This loss is completely on Ventura's shoulders.

Brian26
07-19-2012, 11:07 PM
What does that have to do with anything? He eats Thornton alive. This was Quintana's game. He should have been sent out for the ninth.

Perhaps, but Quintana was lucky to get out of the 7th. You can't expect your starters to throw complete games every time out. Reed and Thornton didn't get the job done. The loss in on those two guys.

doublem23
07-19-2012, 11:14 PM
Matt Thornton should not be used ever. Period. This loss is completely on Ventura's shoulders.

He's looking an awful lot like Addison Reed and Matt Thornton these days then

delben91
07-19-2012, 11:14 PM
Going to be a rough weekend in Detroit.

Even if Peavy and Sale pitch to their abilities, I don't expect the offense to put any runs up. They can't score against mediocre to poor pitchers, no way they touch Verlander.

CoopaLoop
07-19-2012, 11:17 PM
Perhaps, but Quintana was lucky to get out of the 7th. You can't expect your starters to throw complete games every time out. Reed and Thornton didn't get the job done. The loss in on those two guys.

You don't take a lefty starter out throwing a shutout to bring in a lefty reliever who isnt the closer in the 9th inning. That is Quintana's game or Reed's end of discussion.

amsteel
07-19-2012, 11:20 PM
He's looking an awful lot like Addison Reed and Matt Thornton these days then

Overmatched?

Lip Man 1
07-19-2012, 11:26 PM
Soxfan 219:

If Danks is back in September it'll be a miracle.

If the Sox get another starter and move Humber to the pen as the long man / spot starter, I'd tell Danks to go home and come back in February.

Him pitching maybe three or four games in September isn't worth it to me.

Lip

kittle42
07-19-2012, 11:49 PM
We can go on and on and on and on about the 9th inning bullpen decisions and failures, BUT we shouldn't have even been in that situation. 3 runs in 3 games total in this series against junk starters.

There is your series, folks. Yes, you should win a game when all you need is three outs, but we *should not have been in that situation anyway.*

The offense, which is streaky, is bad right now. BAD.

And boy, did it suck sitting in the RF bleachers for that one.

StillMissOzzie
07-19-2012, 11:50 PM
Ugh. Maybe Ventura needed to see for himself that Thornton and 9th innings don't mix well. Let's hope that this was a painful lesson for Ventura to learn.
But you HAVE to score more than one stinking run per game at Fenway to expect any chance at all of winning.

And maybe a Thornton heater to Cody Ross' ribs next time...

SMO
:gulp:

JB98
07-19-2012, 11:50 PM
Perhaps, but Quintana was lucky to get out of the 7th. You can't expect your starters to throw complete games every time out. Reed and Thornton didn't get the job done. The loss in on those two guys.

Success or failure ultimately comes down to how players execute, this is true. However, I felt like Thornton was put in a position where he was likely to fail. How many times do the Sox have to watch him implode in the ninth inning before they realize he is not suited for that role? That movie has played out time and time again over the last two years.

As soon as I saw Thornton on the mound in the ninth, I conceded the game to Boston. I knew the Sox would lose. I literally quit while I was ahead, which is really dark-cloudish, even for a pessimist like me.

Thornton stinks in closing situations. He's shown us he can't do it, so don't put him in that spot.

doublem23
07-20-2012, 12:49 AM
Overmatched?

Yeah, exactly, the presumptive favorite to win the AL Manager of the Year Award.

Get over it, it's one ****ing loss. Sheesh. Welcome to baseball.

happydude
07-20-2012, 01:09 AM
You don't take a lefty starter out throwing a shutout to bring in a lefty reliever who isnt the closer in the 9th inning. That is Quintana's game or Reed's end of discussion.

This is how i see it...not going to turn it into a "thing" though. Hopefully this doesn't happen again. And hopefully we start doing something with the sticks.

guillensdisciple
07-20-2012, 01:35 AM
Everyone said a 5-5 road trip. I like it. We'll leave Detroit with a 2.5 game lead.

I don't get why everyone assumes the tigers are going to murder us come tomorrow and this weekend. Give us a chance- we've surprised all year- who's to say we won't do so again?

Also the white sox have basically been I first place for a month and a half now with a little lapse somewhere in there. Pretty impressive for a club that was only supposed to win 68 ball games.

Have faith people, we might have soxtober this year.


I hope I can use that and it is not some dumbass espn thing for the red sox.

WhiteSox5187
07-20-2012, 01:41 AM
Yeah, exactly, the presumptive favorite to win the AL Manager of the Year Award.

Get over it, it's one ****ing loss. Sheesh. Welcome to baseball.

I agree however I will say that if the bullpen continues to struggle as it has of late even the best manager can look over matched. Bad bullpens baffle the best managers.

cards press box
07-20-2012, 04:41 AM
****!

I absolutely agree. This game was, as a cousin of mine used to say, a real door slammer!

Thornton threw a double play ball that Escobar flubbed.

I agree with this, too. But the Sox defense played well all night. Given the lack of production off Bucholz, however, there was just no room for error.

That one is on Robin.

There is no logic in putting Thorton to start 9th and then a rookie, that is used to starting an inning with bases empty, to clean up the Thorton mess. I know Reed gave up the homerun but he should have started the inning. I just don't understand the handling of the pitchers in the ninth at all.

Oh, I don't know. If the Sox turn the double play on the Pedroia grounder, the whole inning and game look a lot different.

Outmanaged by Bobby Valentine. That's a real kick in the balls.

Oh, and this offense sucks.

Nah, Valentine didn't outmanage anybody. In addition to the missed double play in the bottom of the 9th, the Sox caught another tough break in the top of the 9th: Gordon Beckham's ground rule double that bounced into the right field stands. In the other 29 major league parks, that ball is bouncing around in the right field corner and Viciedo scores. But not in Boston with its highly unusual outfield dimensions.

This game was just one of those things. On the bright side, if Quintana keeps pitching this well, the Sox are going to be awfully tough down the stretch.

dickallen15
07-20-2012, 06:02 AM
[QUOTE=WhiteSox5187;2961801]Matt Thornton should not be used in the 9th inning when the Sox are leading. Some pitchers just are not meant to be closers. Thornton is one of them.[/QUOTE

Yeah, he should have had Reed out there. He did great.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
07-20-2012, 06:14 AM
Matt Thornton should not be used in the 9th inning when the Sox are leading. Some pitchers just are not meant to be closers. Thornton is one of them.

Yeah, he should have had Reed out there. He did great.

Right, because Reed would have pitched with the bases empty the exact same way he did with two on and one out in a pivotal part of the game.

Both pitchers in the 9th were set up to fail. Thornton with his less-than-stellar 9th inning history (and that's putting it kindly) and putting Reed in in a situation where he had to clean up Thornton's inevitable mess with zero margin for error. Robin blew this one. He's been a great manager for us, but today, he shot himself in the foot.

He's a rookie manager, too...a pure rookie manager. His learning curve is a bit more drastic than other rookie managers who at least managed in the minors. Despite it all, he's been way better than advertised.

aryzner
07-20-2012, 07:45 AM
Sometimes you lose a series. That's all I have to say, really. It hasn't happened in about a month.

amsteel
07-20-2012, 08:19 AM
Now that I've had a chance to sleep on it I think the reason this one stung so much is that it compounded pretty much everything bad we've seen and/or expected this year out of this team:

Inconsistent offense
Bad bullpen
Questionable bullpen management

When you see everything go wrong at once, it tends to look much worse than things really are. Regardless of what happens in Detroit, there are still plenty of head to head games left.

The issue is the way Detroit is playing, the Sox fate is probably not in their own hands.

Jerko
07-20-2012, 08:30 AM
I was pissed because I don't like seeing the same mistakes made over and over. Thornton, I'm sorry, left-hander up, right hander up, no-hander up, he SUCKS in the 9th inning. That's 2 ****ty outings for him in a row, and let's not forget Septimo walking 2 lefties and giving up a homer against the next lefty. **** these matchups; either leave the starter in there (who was lefty btw if you're so worried about matchups) or let your closer START the inning. Thornton should be used in the 9th inning as Konerko is used to pinch run.

doublem23
07-20-2012, 08:44 AM
The issue is the way Detroit is playing, the Sox fate is probably not in their own hands.

Oh, give me a break. The Tigers have been wholly mediocre for the entire season save for a nice little 2 week run in which they've still only been able to pick up a grand total of 3 games on the Sox that could very easily be erased in 1 weekend.

Teams go up and down as the season progresses, but the only thing the Tigers have consistently outperformed the Sox at this year has been failing to live up to expectations.

The Tigers ****ing suck, people.

sox1970
07-20-2012, 08:50 AM
Oh, give me a break. The Tigers have been wholly mediocre for the entire season save for a nice little 2 week run in which they've still only been able to pick up a grand total of 3 games on the Sox that could very easily be erased in 1 weekend.

Teams go up and down as the season progresses, but the only thing the Tigers have consistently outperformed the Sox at this year has been failing to live up to expectations.

The Tigers ****ing suck, people.

Yes, one of the top 1/3 of teams in the AL, sucks. Ok.

doublem23
07-20-2012, 08:57 AM
Yes, one of the top 1/3 of teams in the AL, sucks. Ok.

There's really no measurement that puts the Tigers in the top 1/3 of the AL at all, so I don't know where you're getting that, but if you look a little deeper at their performance this year just beyond W-L record, specifically at stuff like SRS and Pythagorean W-L, which are generally accepted as much better indicators of future performance, the Tigers are barely top 1/2 of the AL.

They are not a good team.

sox1970
07-20-2012, 09:02 AM
There's really no measurement that puts the Tigers in the top 1/3 of the AL at all, so I don't know where you're getting that, but if you look a little deeper at their performance this year just beyond W-L record, specifically at stuff like SRS and Pythagorean W-L, which are generally accepted as much better indicators of future performance, the Tigers are barely top 1/2 of the AL.

They are not a good team.

They are the second wild card team right now. Even if they are just in a blob of other teams like Baltimore, Oakland, Boston, Tampa Bay, and Angels, they're still only 1.5 back of the Sox and trending in the right direction with their offense. Also, Fister has been outstanding his last 2 starts.

They'll play the next 68-69 games and we'll find out for sure.

ChiSoxGirl
07-20-2012, 10:04 AM
Going to be a rough weekend in Detroit.

Even if Peavy and Sale pitch to their abilities, I don't expect the offense to put any runs up. They can't score against mediocre to poor pitchers, no way they touch Verlander.

Well, the 2011 Sox hit Verlander (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/DET/DET201107150.shtml) last July, so if that God-awful team could do it, so can this year's club. I know, I know... the offense hasn't been there lately. But it'll come around again and maybe, hopefully tonight is the night that starts.

slavko
07-20-2012, 10:17 AM
I agree however I will say that if the bullpen continues to struggle as it has of late even the best manager can look over matched. Bad bullpens baffle the best managers.

"Great bullpens make great managers." Can't remember who first said it, not one of us, but 100% true. BTW, neither Sox pitcher in the 9th threw anything but a ~95 fastball. Them or AJ the reason?

doublem23
07-20-2012, 10:17 AM
Well, the 2011 Sox hit Verlander (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/DET/DET201107150.shtml) last July, so if that God-awful team could do it, so can this year's club. I know, I know... the offense hasn't been there lately. But it'll come around again and maybe, hopefully tonight is the night that starts.

:thumbsup: Great post. The Sox actually have hit Verlander pretty well over the course of his career, of course, he hit another gear last season, but it wouldn't exactly be a shocking development if they beat him. This series is going to come down to pitching, right now the offense looks like it could get lulled to sleep against a high school pitcher, so Peavy, Sale, and Humber are going to need to throw some good games.

CHISOXFAN13
07-20-2012, 10:23 AM
Oh, give me a break. The Tigers have been wholly mediocre for the entire season save for a nice little 2 week run in which they've still only been able to pick up a grand total of 3 games on the Sox that could very easily be erased in 1 weekend.

Teams go up and down as the season progresses, but the only thing the Tigers have consistently outperformed the Sox at this year has been failing to live up to expectations.

The Tigers ****ing suck, people.

How are they within 1.5 games if they've been oh so ****ing bad and medicore?

doublem23
07-20-2012, 10:38 AM
How are they within 1.5 games if they've been oh so ****ing bad and medicore?

Because they're riding an unsustainable hot streak right now.

Their entire body of work this season is very unimpressive. Unquestionably inferior to the Sox.

sullythered
07-20-2012, 10:46 AM
Because they're riding an unsustainable hot streak right now.

Their entire body of work this season is very unimpressive. Unquestionably inferior to the Sox.

Yup, the Sox have had a significantly better season so far, in practically every measurable statistical category. Offense, defense, and pitching.

kittle42
07-20-2012, 11:01 AM
The issue is the way Detroit is playing, the Sox fate is probably not in their own hands.

But I have been assured on these boards that Detroit is mediocre.

ClawsDeep
07-20-2012, 11:06 AM
Offense
Sox - More R and more HR
Tigers - better AVG, OPS, SLG, OBP

Pitching
Sox - better WHIP, less R
Tigers - better k/9, k/bb, lower ERA

Defense
Sox - less E, better F%,

My opinion is that the Sox are far and away better defensively, but the Tigers are a much better offensive team. The pitching is pretty comparable.

At this point of the season, neither team has shown they are vastly superior or inferior in relation to the other team. This weekend will also not prove anything, even if either team sweeps.

I think the Sox will win tonight and lose the next two.

sullythered
07-20-2012, 11:08 AM
Offense
the Tigers are a much better offensive team.

Why does the "much better" offensive team score fewer runs?

doublem23
07-20-2012, 11:13 AM
But I have been assured on these boards that Detroit is mediocre.

They have been to this point, and only a completely manical dark cloud would say something as utterly absurd as the Sox not holding their own fate in their hands with 70 ****ing games left in the season.

Foulke You
07-20-2012, 11:16 AM
:thumbsup: Great post. The Sox actually have hit Verlander pretty well over the course of his career, of course, he hit another gear last season, but it wouldn't exactly be a shocking development if they beat him.
Sox have handled right handers far better this year than lefties and we will be facing three right handers this weekend in Verlander, Porcello, and Turner. Perfect chance for the bats to "get well". Tonight's game will be the toughest of the three.

sox1970
07-20-2012, 11:22 AM
Why does the "much better" offensive team score fewer runs?

Sox have more blowouts, but getting to 5 runs, they've both done it about the same amount:

Sox are 32-8 when scoring 5+ runs
Tigers are 33-9 when scoring 5+ runs

And the Tigers are trending in the right way, and the Sox are trending in the other way.

Hey, look. They're 4-4 head-to-head. They're within 1.5 games of each other. They have 10 games left with each other over the next 8 weeks. Let's tee it up, and we'll find out who is better. I hope it's the Sox.

ClawsDeep
07-20-2012, 11:34 AM
Why does the "much better" offensive team score fewer runs?

For one, the sox have hit 20 more homeruns than the tigers. In large part this has to do with park factor (http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor). It is much easier to score runs at the Cell than at Comerica. Same as in Arlington, Colorado, and Boston.

Do you think the rockies are a better offense because they have scored more runs than the Sox?

sullythered
07-20-2012, 01:02 PM
For one, the sox have hit 20 more homeruns than the tigers. In large part this has to do with park factor (http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor). It is much easier to score runs at the Cell than at Comerica. Same as in Arlington, Colorado, and Boston.

Do you think the rockies are a better offense because they have scored more runs than the Sox?

So, the Sox pitching must be way better, since they play in such a bandbox.

kufram
07-20-2012, 01:06 PM
My dog's better than your dog.

kittle42
07-20-2012, 01:08 PM
My dog's better than your dog.

Which one has fewer errors? :tongue:

kufram
07-20-2012, 01:23 PM
Which one has fewer errors? :tongue:


Or maybe rrr-rrrs?

Sox
07-20-2012, 01:33 PM
Ugh. Garbage. Cue the puke.

:chunks

Soxman219
07-20-2012, 01:35 PM
That Gatorade shower at home plate still makes me angry. Seriously, **** Boston.

thomas35forever
07-20-2012, 01:38 PM
Detroit is hot right now and we just got a swift punch to the gut. Exactly what we don't need going into the weekend.

Sox
07-20-2012, 01:40 PM
A good manager would have told his team to win instead of lose. Robin doesn't know what he's doing!!!

Ya forgot to put that in teal....:wink:

amsteel
07-20-2012, 01:44 PM
Because they're riding an unsustainable hot streak right now.

Detroit's winning % over the last 30 games (0.633) is lower than their winning % over the second half last season (0.641). So, they could in fact sustain their current pace.

If they somehow do that, which would be a worst case scenario, that puts them at 93 wins. Meaning the Sox would need to play around 0.630 the rest of the way to win 94 games.

Basically, 94 wins for someone will win the division since it's unlikely both teams can play at that pace.