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View Full Version : *Official* 7-8 Enter ASB in first by 3 games; TOR 11 SOX 9 Postgamer


Frater Perdurabo
07-08-2012, 05:00 PM
Inconsistent strike zone width and giving up too many walks doomed us today.

Nice to close out with a 5-1 home stand.

mzh
07-08-2012, 05:00 PM
Put up a good fight, I'll take a 5-1 homestand.

TheOldRoman
07-08-2012, 05:00 PM
Axelrod got pounded on short rest when Robin could have easily swapped him and Sale earlier in the week to have him on four days. He handed this game to the Jays.

Some of the worst officiating I have seen in a long time. Two entirely different strike zones for the teams. Lots of Sox hitters had their bats taken out of their hands today, especially in later innings.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
07-08-2012, 05:02 PM
That ****ing sucked.

At least, once again, the Sox showed they won't go down without a fight.

Moses_Scurry
07-08-2012, 05:02 PM
Nice home stand, but I hate losing the last game before the break, especially the way this one went. It'll leavea bad taste that won't go away for four days, minimum.

SoxFan49
07-08-2012, 05:03 PM
I don't give a damn if Robin could've swapped Sale out a couple of days ago, even if Sale played this game the way these umps were calling the game we would've lost.

If Ventura can't trust his pitchers, then we aren't going to go far this season, Ventura had every right to send Axelrod out there.

Frater Perdurabo
07-08-2012, 05:03 PM
I hope the home plate ump misses his flight and gets stranded overnight in an airport. Serves him right for trying to shorten the game and hand it to the Jays.

samurai_sox
07-08-2012, 05:04 PM
Too many ****ing walks :angry:

horrible umpiring as well, how was that a fair ball down the left field line in the 6th??

soxinem1
07-08-2012, 05:05 PM
I agree Axelrod is not MLB caliber and he has shown it.

But this game had the worst strike zone disparity we have experienced thus far in 2012. Just unreal.

The good? They fought back and made a game of it. What can you say?

And if we could say Opening Day that we would be in 1st Place by three games at the ASB, then we should be happy.

And congrats to Jake Peavy for being named the fourth 2012 White Sox representative to the All-Star Game!!

Now lets just hope Peavy and Sale can sit it out pitching-wise!!!

LITTLE NELL
07-08-2012, 05:05 PM
Put up a good fight, I'll take a 5-1 homestand.

I was hoping for 4-2 after the Yankee series.
Went down fighting, Sox of the last few years would have folded after the first inning.
Tough schedule coming up with only 3 homes games left in July. Could make or break the season. Get a good rest guys.

TheOldRoman
07-08-2012, 05:05 PM
I don't give a damn if Robin could've swapped Sale out a couple of days ago, even if Sale played this game the way these umps were calling the game we would've lost.

If Ventura can't trust his pitchers, then we aren't going to go far this season, Ventura had every right to send Axelrod out there.As horrible as the home plate umpire was, the Sox had countless chances to win this game. If Sale pitched and was anywhere close to his normal self, they would have won. That's besides the point, though. If they wanted to give Sale rest - fine. However, they could have moved Axelrod up to go on normal rest on the 3rd, Sale on the 4th and Axelrod would have gone on 4 days rest today. It's unfair to put a rookie (who isn't particularly talented to begin with) in that position.

WhiteSox5187
07-08-2012, 05:06 PM
This loss doesn't bother me so much, anytime Axelrod starts you just have to hope he can keep it close and today he looked bad. The umpiring really got out of hand, especially in the later innings. Pretty damned good first half though.

Patrick134
07-08-2012, 05:06 PM
if you're going to call a terrible strike zone, at least be consistent about it. That being said, at least Axelrod made it easy to decide who to ship out when danks returns.

1989
07-08-2012, 05:08 PM
The umps should've at least bought us dinner first.

Christ that was awful.

Noneck
07-08-2012, 05:10 PM
The home plate umping was bad but they should have realized that it wasnt going to change. Move closer to the plate and swing away. I really think the bitching got into Dunn and Pauls head, where they were done before they got to the plate.

amsteel
07-08-2012, 05:14 PM
http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/zoneplot.php?pitchSel=all&game=gid_2012_07_08_tormlb_chamlb_1/&sp_type=1&s_type=7

The zone wasn't quite as egregious as I expected, but it's also when the bad calls are made. Being down 4 runs before your offense gets a chance significantly reduces your chance of winning.

I don't really care if only 10%-5% are incorrect. If we put a man on the moon 40 god damn years ago, they can figure out balls and strikes.

central44
07-08-2012, 05:20 PM
I don't give a damn if Robin could've swapped Sale out a couple of days ago, even if Sale played this game the way these umps were calling the game we would've lost.

If Ventura can't trust his pitchers, then we aren't going to go far this season, Ventura had every right to send Axelrod out there.

I agree with this. For whatever reason the strike zone was extremely unbalanced, i'm not sure it would matter who the Sox started. Wish I understood that ump's motivation though.

Loved seeing Robin give a piece of his mind and the "You suck" chant. If they could tell from the stadium it was bad--without listening to Hawk rant--it makes me pretty confident this was a very bad job and not just blatant homerism.

Oh well, the Sox fought back over and over again. Sometimes you just lose. It's still a 5-1 homestand against two very tough teams.

delben91
07-08-2012, 05:23 PM
Sometimes you just lose.

That about sums up my feelings on the game. If they win 5 of every 6 the rest of the way I think we'd all be happy.

DickAllen72
07-08-2012, 05:26 PM
http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/zoneplot.php?pitchSel=all&game=gid_2012_07_08_tormlb_chamlb_1/&sp_type=1&s_type=7

The zone wasn't quite as egregious as I expected, but it's also when the bad calls are made. Being down 4 runs before your offense gets a chance significantly reduces your chance of winning.

I don't really care if only 10%-5% are incorrect. If we put a man on the moon 40 god damn years ago, they can figure out balls and strikes.
There's no way that graph is accurate. I don't even see those balls way outside that were called strikes on Rios on that chart.

amsteel
07-08-2012, 05:39 PM
There's no way that graph is accurate. I don't even see those balls way outside that were called strikes on Rios on that chart.

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/location.php?pitchSel=446399&game=gid_2012_07_08_tormlb_chamlb_1/&batterX=31&innings=yyyyyyyyy&sp_type=1&s_type=3

Golden Sox
07-08-2012, 05:49 PM
1) Can I assume Phil Humber will replace Axelrod in the rotation after the break? 2) Flowers really hasn't played that much but when he has played he has been awful offensively. Perhaps we might need another catcher on this team.

LITTLE NELL
07-08-2012, 05:52 PM
1) Can I assume Phil Humber will replace Axelrod in the rotation after the break? 2) Flowers really hasn't played that much but when he has played he has been awful offensively. Perhaps we might need another catcher on this team.

I'd feel better if it was Danks instead of Humber but it's anyones guess when Danks will be back if at all this season.

DonnieDarko
07-08-2012, 05:57 PM
Flowers is bad. AJ needs to be resigned, and the Sox need to find a more permanent replacement fast.

Strike zone was bad.

Not a good day, but at least the Sox went down swinging.

Jollyroger2
07-08-2012, 06:24 PM
Nice home stand, but I hate losing the last game before the break, especially the way this one went. It'll leavea bad taste that won't go away for four days, minimum.

I'm in this camp...yeah 5-1 homestand is nice, yeah 3 games up is nice, but it's a missed opportunity when you score 9 runs and lose. Blaming the umpiring is silly, no matter how bad some calls were. Axelrod was awful and the ump calls didn't cause the Jays to hammer what, four home runs and how many doubles?

Players had flights lined up after the game for the break, clearly a lot of these guys just weren't in it today. That happens but it's disappointing. All-Star appearances don't do much for me, not with how watered down that glorified exhibition is. I'd rather have the regular season win.

voodoochile
07-08-2012, 06:29 PM
Just wanted to say thanks for the title. I actually stopped paying attention to the Toons' and Kittens' scores because they were both up big early. I just assumed they'd won and the Sox only had a two game lead. Finding this nugget on the forums after the loss was a needed shot of happiness.

soxinem1
07-08-2012, 06:37 PM
Flowers is bad. AJ needs to be resigned, and the Sox need to find a more permanent replacement fast.

Strike zone was bad.

Not a good day, but at least the Sox went down swinging.

If there is one area Robin has to get better in is using his bench. I know he wants his regulars to be regulars but especially with guys like AJ, and extra day off here and there would be good for him and Flowers both.

Tragg
07-08-2012, 06:38 PM
We pitched our 5th starter on short rest, something we didn't need to do (we could have given him his 4 days and still given Sale his week off). I expect the homers from Axelrod, but the walks are just something a pitcher with his "stuff" can simply not allow.

palehozenychicty
07-08-2012, 06:57 PM
Today's game is one where you can't do much about the end result. The players want to chill out. The umpires need a break.

The team has been a surprising success in this first half. Now, let's see if they can be competitive in the second. In recent history, the second half has not been kind to the franchise.

Zakath
07-08-2012, 07:18 PM
There's no way that graph is accurate. I don't even see those balls way outside that were called strikes on Rios on that chart.

Took the bat right out of his hands on that AB, in what was a pretty crucial situation in the game (bottom of the 3rd, down 4 but with 2 on). Some horrid calls in the bottom of the 8th as well on both Adam and Paulie.

Reyburn was really pathetic back there, almost on a CB Bucknor level of awful.

Brian26
07-08-2012, 07:20 PM
I don't give a damn if Robin could've swapped Sale out a couple of days ago, even if Sale played this game the way these umps were calling the game we would've lost.

Come on. The Sox put up nine runs even with the bad umpires. If Sale started this game, the Sox would have finished with a six game homestand sweep heading into the Break. Axelrod had nothing today.

delben91
07-08-2012, 07:21 PM
1) Can I assume Phil Humber will replace Axelrod in the rotation after the break? 2) Flowers really hasn't played that much but when he has played he has been awful offensively. Perhaps we might need another catcher on this team.

I'd feel better if it was Danks instead of Humber but it's anyones guess when Danks will be back if at all this season.

Looks like the Sox are planning on one of them being back up after the break (probably Humber as he's had 2 rehab starts) since Heath is being optioned to AAA (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120708&content_id=34732840&vkey=pr_cws&c_id=cws).

DickAllen72
07-08-2012, 07:33 PM
http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/location.php?pitchSel=446399&game=gid_2012_07_08_tormlb_chamlb_1/&batterX=31&innings=yyyyyyyyy&sp_type=1&s_type=3
OK, so then the view is from behind the plate looking out towards the pitcher. My mistake, I thought it was the view from the pitcher looking towards the batter. Thanks.

Noneck
07-08-2012, 07:35 PM
Flowers is bad. AJ needs to be resigned, and the Sox need to find a more permanent replacement fast.



Flowers should be AJ's favorite player, every game Flowers plays increases AJ's stock.

Chez
07-08-2012, 07:57 PM
I did not appreciate this game.

I was there and have never seen a game in which so many Sox players were carping about the strike zone. We figured it was bad, but didn't have any sort of angle to know for sure. After reading this thread, there doesn't seem to be much question that all the carping was justified.

I'm disappointed we lost, but a 5-1 homestand is terrific. The first half far exceeded my expectations. Rios, Peavy, De Aza, A.J. Paulie, Sale, Quintana, Reed . . . the list is a long one.

Hopefully, Crain and Humber will be ready right after the break. Axelrod just doesn't have the stuff to be in the rotation for a contender. A healthy Crain completely changes the make-up of the bullpen.

I'm really excited for the second half. Here's to good health and a great finish.

slavko
07-08-2012, 08:05 PM
Yeah, Ax was just plain bad today, cost us the game. First time he has. If Humber comes back like he was before DL, he'll be just as bad, but he has some filthy stuff when he's right. Ax, no stuff, needs pinpoint control.

All I'll grant the kid is that he was on short rest, not his fault.

Hitmen77
07-08-2012, 09:36 PM
Today was 4 weeks to the day that the Sox lost 11-9 to Houston. In that game, it was Humber that had a lousy outing - giving up 6 runs in 5 1/3 - and our bullpen (Jones and Stewart) failed to keep the game in reach as the Sox offense battled back from a 9-3 deficit.

I get that Ventura was attempting to work in some rest for Sale. But, I still hate seeing the Sox give away a game. With the offense giving us 9 runs today, that's what I feel they essentially did by starting Axelrod today. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the AL Central race is decided on the final day of the season. In the end, we might need every win we can get.

I just hope Humber comes back healthy and more effective after the break. What this team really needs down the stretch is for Danks to come back healthy and effective, but I'm not holding my breath for that happening any time soon.

Dick Allen
07-08-2012, 10:07 PM
I'm in the camp that the Sox can't afford to give away games. They treated this game and the Monday Cubs game like exhibition games, screwing around with the rotation by starting that bum Stewart against the Cubs and throwing Axelrod out there today. This isn't the goddam Cactus League anymore. If this really helps the rotation in the long run, fine, but will we really know? In the meantime, they have at least two losses on the board because of this tinkering. I'd hate to see these games loom large when we come down to the end of September.

FielderJones
07-08-2012, 10:11 PM
If this really helps the rotation in the long run, fine, but will we really know?

Yes, we will really know because Chris Sale's arm won't have fallen off on October.

Dick Allen
07-08-2012, 10:15 PM
Yes, we will really know because Chris Sale's arm won't have fallen off on October.How will we know it would have fallen off if he pitched his regular turn? It's the All-Star break, for crissakes. Even if he pitches an inning in the ASG, he could still get a nice rest without the Sox having to throw a AAA pitcher into the mix.

pudge
07-08-2012, 10:40 PM
How will we know it would have fallen off if he pitched his regular turn? It's the All-Star break, for crissakes. Even if he pitches an inning in the ASG, he could still get a nice rest without the Sox having to throw a AAA pitcher into the mix.

No kidding - could he not have thrown 4 or 5 innings? Even that would have resulted in a win. Just drives me crazy. Is one game really going to save his arm? If he's that delicate, we're screwed anyway because he'll be toast come October.

TheOldRoman
07-08-2012, 10:51 PM
Flowers should be AJ's favorite player, every game Flowers plays increases AJ's stock.Here's the thing - what they are doing is unfair to Tyler Flowers. They had him on the team because they figured AJ would regress enough where Tyler would be getting half the playing time. Well, AJ is having the best season of his career, so he is playing the huge majority of the time.

Flowers has talent and he is getting absolutely nothing from sitting on the bench. It's unfair to him to get him three AB every week and a half and expect him to produce. He needs to be playing every day. Winning is obviously the most important thing so AJ should keep playing as much, but I think they would be better served sending Flowers down and bringing in/up a defense-only catcher to backup AJ.

FielderJones
07-08-2012, 11:18 PM
How will we know it would have fallen off if he pitched his regular turn? It's the All-Star break, for crissakes. Even if he pitches an inning in the ASG, he could still get a nice rest without the Sox having to throw a AAA pitcher into the mix.

No kidding - could he not have thrown 4 or 5 innings? Even that would have resulted in a win. Just drives me crazy. Is one game really going to save his arm? If he's that delicate, we're screwed anyway because he'll be toast come October.

You guys are both right and Coop doesn't have a clue.

IronFisk
07-09-2012, 12:19 AM
Bottom line...a team usually wins when they score 9 runs. Offense did all it could.

I was at the game, but in the UD so can't comment on the strike zone...but both teams were ticked about it. Thought Batista was going to launch. My BIG beef was that horrendous "fair" call in the 6th...opened the floodgates for 3 runs. The ball almost knocked the ump down, and he appeared to be calling fair before it hit. :scratch:

Nellie_Fox
07-09-2012, 12:24 AM
Bottom line...a team usually wins when they score 9 runs. Offense did all it could.

I was at the game, but in the UD so can't comment on the strike zone...but both teams were ticked about it. Thought Batista was going to launch. My BIG beef was that horrendous "fair" call in the 6th...opened the floodgates for 3 runs. The ball almost knocked the ump down, and he appeared to be calling fair before it hit. :scratch:Of course he was. It hit in foul territory well past the bag, and all that matters is where it was when it went over the bag. He should make his call one way or the other as soon as it goes over the bag, not wait to see where it lands afterward. I thought it looked foul going across the bag, but TV gives no depth perception, so I can't be sure.

jcw218
07-09-2012, 01:29 AM
... Blaming the umpiring is silly, no matter how bad some calls were. Axelrod was awful and the ump calls didn't cause the Jays to hammer what, four home runs and how many doubles?



Maybe not directly, but of a pitcher feels that he needs to throw the ball dead center to get a strike called it could cause more hittable pitches to be thrown.

Sent from my iPod touch using Forum Runner

Noneck
07-09-2012, 01:55 AM
Here's the thing - what they are doing is unfair to Tyler Flowers. They had him on the team because they figured AJ would regress enough where Tyler would be getting half the playing time. Well, AJ is having the best season of his career, so he is playing the huge majority of the time.

Flowers has talent and he is getting absolutely nothing from sitting on the bench. It's unfair to him to get him three AB every week and a half and expect him to produce. He needs to be playing every day. Winning is obviously the most important thing so AJ should keep playing as much, but I think they would be better served sending Flowers down and bringing in/up a defense-only catcher to backup AJ.

Sounds right but Flowers is still pushing up AJ's stock. Too bad Donny Lucy retired.

parlaycard
07-09-2012, 07:57 AM
It appeared to me that the home plate umpire had a sizable wager on the Blue Jays.

It makes it virtually impossible to win when you go to the plate and have to expand your strike zone 3 inches in every direction as you know if you dont you will be called our on strikes.

Was that Tim Donaghy behind the plate?

Foulke You
07-09-2012, 10:21 AM
It appeared to me that the home plate umpire had a sizable wager on the Blue Jays.

It makes it virtually impossible to win when you go to the plate and have to expand your strike zone 3 inches in every direction as you know if you dont you will be called our on strikes.

Was that Tim Donaghy behind the plate?
I believe it was DJ Raeburn behind the plate. The Rios at bat was particularly bad. Cecil didn't throw a single strike yet two of them were called about 4 inches off the plate. Alex had to chase the third one and pretty much had the bat taken out of his hands. Also, the pitch he rung up Adam Dunn late in the game was also about 4 inches off the plate. This might have been the worst K-zone we've seen all year. At least CB Bucknor is bad for both teams.

Zisk77
07-09-2012, 10:41 AM
I believe it was DJ Raeburn behind the plate. The Rios at bat was particularly bad. Cecil didn't throw a single strike yet two of them were called about 4 inches off the plate. Alex had to chase the third one and pretty much had the bat taken out of his hands. Also, the pitch he rung up Adam Dunn late in the game was also about 4 inches off the plate. This might have been the worst K-zone we've seen all year. At least CB Bucknor is bad for both teams.


That was a joke. Donaghy was the NBA official who bet on NBA games based on what officials were doing the games. He knew there tendancies.

cards press box
07-09-2012, 11:01 AM
Flowers should be AJ's favorite player, every game Flowers plays increases AJ's stock.

Here's the thing - what they are doing is unfair to Tyler Flowers. They had him on the team because they figured AJ would regress enough where Tyler would be getting half the playing time. Well, AJ is having the best season of his career, so he is playing the huge majority of the time.

Flowers has talent and he is getting absolutely nothing from sitting on the bench. It's unfair to him to get him three AB every week and a half and expect him to produce. He needs to be playing every day. Winning is obviously the most important thing so AJ should keep playing as much, but I think they would be better served sending Flowers down and bringing in/up a defense-only catcher to backup AJ.

I wonder if the Sox have any interest in Kelly Shoppach (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/07/potentially-available-catchers.html) of Boston. He is a right handed hitter who hits lefties well. He might be a good back up to AJ.

Would Boston do another deal with the Sox?

FielderJones
07-09-2012, 11:27 AM
I wonder if the Sox have any interest in Kelly Shoppach (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/07/potentially-available-catchers.html) of Boston. He is a right handed hitter who hits lefties well. He might be a good back up to AJ.

Would Boston do another deal with the Sox?

Is there some reason Boston wants to deal Shoppach?

TomBradley72
07-09-2012, 11:35 AM
Here's the thing - what they are doing is unfair to Tyler Flowers. They had him on the team because they figured AJ would regress enough where Tyler would be getting half the playing time. Well, AJ is having the best season of his career, so he is playing the huge majority of the time.

Flowers has talent and he is getting absolutely nothing from sitting on the bench. It's unfair to him to get him three AB every week and a half and expect him to produce. He needs to be playing every day. Winning is obviously the most important thing so AJ should keep playing as much, but I think they would be better served sending Flowers down and bringing in/up a defense-only catcher to backup AJ.

I don't know- Flowers is 26 yo and now has a career batting average of .187 across almost 200 ABs- last year at AAA, he hit .261 with 84 strike outs in 270 abs- so about 160+ for a full season after hitting .220 at AAA in 2010.

There's just not alot of evidence that he's a very good hitter. If he plays everyday at AAA then that will stunt Phegley's development- not that he's a great prospect-

hawkjt
07-09-2012, 11:42 AM
I do think the Sox brass messed up the rotation this week. I believe they changed their plans on the fly,which meant starting Axe on short rest vs normal rest. They could have simply pitched Sale on Wed.,which would have given him an extra days rest,and Axelrod on Tues,normal rest,then Axe again on Sunday,normal rest. Instead they have Sale on normal rest,then Axe on an extra days rest and then short rest? Make zero sense. Truly unfortunate,because for a guy like Axelrod, that extra day means a lot. He has to be razor sharp with his command to have a chance. Clearly,today,he had no sharpness,probably due to his arm fatigue. Just a shame, as it cost the Sox a opportunity to go into the ASG with huge momentum,and a 4 game lead on Tribe,4.5 lead on Tigers.

Santiago looked good...thats it from the pitching side.

Offensively, Alex and Alexei continue their roll....nice. PK and Dunn desperately need to re-boot,but unfortunately,they are in KC.
I hope they get recharged down there,cus we need more from them than what they have given the last 3 weeks.

Otherwise, all is good,really. Come back ready to rock,Sox!!-

delben91
07-09-2012, 11:48 AM
I thought they'd called up Heath just so they'd have a spot starter for Sunday. I agree with the stance of giving Sale time off by skipping his turn this go-round, but would think Heath still would've provided a better shot to win than Axelrod on short rest.

Jerko
07-09-2012, 11:58 AM
There was an awful strike called on Dunn in his first AB. From that point on he was doomed. I didn't like the ground rule double the Sox had when the RF threw his arms up and the ball was laying right there. Then again, the next 2 guys struck out anyway IIRC

JB98
07-09-2012, 12:23 PM
Is there some reason Boston wants to deal Shoppach?

I don't think so. Saltalamacchia is a switch-hitter who is much better from the left side of the plate than the right. Shoppach is a guy who hits lefties well. I would imagine the Red Sox are pretty happy with the platoon they've got going there.

Flowers is never going to be a starting catcher in this league. I wish he would hit a little better, but I have very low expectations for him. I can't say I'm even slightly surprised that he's been completely unproductive in limited at-bats.

As for the game, the umpiring sucked, but Axelrod lost the game. Down 7-3 after three innings, well, you're just going to lose the majority of the time in that situation. The Sox didn't throw in the towel, but they couldn't get enough big hits to come back.

JB98
07-09-2012, 12:24 PM
I don't know- Flowers is 26 yo and now has a career batting average of .187 across almost 200 ABs- last year at AAA, he hit .261 with 84 strike outs in 270 abs- so about 160+ for a full season after hitting .220 at AAA in 2010.

There's just not alot of evidence that he's a very good hitter. If he plays everyday at AAA then that will stunt Phegley's development- not that he's a great prospect-

I agree with you. I don't see any reason to believe Flowers is any more than a career backup. He is not going to take Pierzynski's place. No way.

TomBradley72
07-09-2012, 05:20 PM
I agree with you. I don't see any reason to believe Flowers is any more than a career backup. He is not going to take Pierzynski's place. No way.

His defense is better than I expected- and a back up who can run into a few each season for some dingers is OK w/me- but he's never really hit above AAA- and it doesn't look he going to.

Bucky F. Dent
07-17-2012, 07:31 AM
Yeah, but my son got to run the bases after the game. It's the happiest I've ever been in the aftermath of a Sox loss.