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HBaines03
07-07-2012, 09:37 PM
I know all the talk has been to improve the bullpen since we have so much youth and Crain is on the DL, but how are we planning to handle Chris Sale's and Jose Quintana's innings pitched for the remainder of the season?

Zakath
07-07-2012, 09:49 PM
I know all the talk has been to improve the bullpen since we have so much youth and Crain is on the DL, but how are we planning to handle Chris Sale's and Jose Quintana's innings pitched for the remainder of the season?

Sale is at just over 100 innings pitched (102 2/3) in 16 games, while Quintana has thrown 57 1/3 in 10 games. If both stay in the rotation (not absolutely guaranteed for Quintana) and average roughly 6-7 innings per start (we'll have 77 games left after the Break, so each would get either 15 or 16 starts), you're looking at anywhere between 90 and 112 innings. That would put Sale at 200 +/- 10, which isn't a huge number.

TheVulture
07-07-2012, 10:20 PM
That would put Sale at 200 +/- 10, which isn't a huge number.

Considering Sale's greatest number of innings in a season was 89 in 2009 in college, and that he averaged a total of about 55 innings the last two seasons, I'd say 200 is a huge number.

Between Birmingham and Chicago, Quintana is already past his career high in innings as well. He pitched 102 innings last year, and only 89 over the previous two seasons.

I don't know if we can reasonably expect either of these guys to remain effective through the end of the season, but I guess we'll find out.

WLL1855
07-07-2012, 11:11 PM
What is with the fascination some people have with benching young pitchers?

When did pitching coaches, managers, and people in the front office stop trusting their instincts and start imposing arbitrary limits on what a pitcher can and can't handle?

John Smoltz pitched over 200 innings his first full season as a starting pitcher at the tender age of 22. So did Tom Seaver. Don Drysdale threw over 200 innings at age 20. Mike Mussina threw over 240 innings his first full season as a starter at age 23. There are many more examples out there if you care to look for them. It wasn't all that long ago (or maybe it was - I am starting to get old) where teams used four man rotations and some of the guys topped 300 innings.

I can understand some of the concern out there but why not just trust the coaching staff to evaluate the guys they are responsible for from start to start like coaches did for the first hundred or so years of the history of the game?

BRDSR
07-07-2012, 11:39 PM
What is with the fascination some people have with benching young pitchers?

When did pitching coaches, managers, and people in the front office stop trusting their instincts and start imposing arbitrary limits on what a pitcher can and can't handle?

John Smoltz pitched over 200 innings his first full season as a starting pitcher at the tender age of 22. So did Tom Seaver. Don Drysdale threw over 200 innings at age 20. Mike Mussina threw over 240 innings his first full season as a starter at age 23. There are many more examples out there if you care to look for them. It wasn't all that long ago (or maybe it was - I am starting to get old) where teams used four man rotations and some of the guys topped 300 innings.

I can understand some of the concern out there but why not just trust the coaching staff to evaluate the guys they are responsible for from start to start like coaches did for the first hundred or so years of the history of the game?

How about Stephen Strasburg as an example? He could very well be a better pitcher than any of the four you mentioned, and he managed to put together a grand total of 68 IP in 2010 before requiring Tommy John surgery.

Every pitcher is different. Sale is lanky lefty whose left elbow seems to go every which way when he pitches. There must be people out there smarter than me who can make an educated prediction about whether he is a high risk for injury. If so, plan accordingly.

I am not as worried about Quintana, but the White Sox are going to be in the enviable position of having 7 bonafide starters soon (depending on to what extent you count Humber and Axelrod as bonafide starters). Use the extra starters appropriately to make sure the best starters aren't overworked come September and the playoffs. I do trust the White Sox coaching staff to make the right decision, but I also reserve the right to second-guess them if Sale has pitched 200 innings by mid-September and then gets dead arm/injured.

WLL1855
07-08-2012, 12:23 AM
How about Stephen Strasburg as an example? He could very well be a better pitcher than any of the four you mentioned, and he managed to put together a grand total of 68 IP in 2010 before requiring Tommy John surgery.


Honest question. Do you believe Strasburg's injury had anything to do with overuse during the 2010 season?

DSpivack
07-08-2012, 12:31 AM
How about Stephen Strasburg as an example? He could very well be a better pitcher than any of the four you mentioned, and he managed to put together a grand total of 68 IP in 2010 before requiring Tommy John surgery.

Every pitcher is different. Sale is lanky lefty whose left elbow seems to go every which way when he pitches. There must be people out there smarter than me who can make an educated prediction about whether he is a high risk for injury. If so, plan accordingly.

I am not as worried about Quintana, but the White Sox are going to be in the enviable position of having 7 bonafide starters soon (depending on to what extent you count Humber and Axelrod as bonafide starters). Use the extra starters appropriately to make sure the best starters aren't overworked come September and the playoffs. I do trust the White Sox coaching staff to make the right decision, but I also reserve the right to second-guess them if Sale has pitched 200 innings by mid-September and then gets dead arm/injured.

Honest question. Do you believe Strasburg's injury had anything to do with overuse during the 2010 season?

His looming shutdown at 160 IP, which includes the playoffs from what I understand, while the Nats have the best record in baseball, ought to be interesting.

bigdommer
07-08-2012, 08:45 AM
How did those Joba rules work out?

Then again, how did Dusty's usage of Prior with 150 pitch counts work out?

You never can tell. I think you watch them closely, you make sure you monitor throwing between starts, skip 'em if you have to, and ride it out. Also, Sale threw 89 in '09 but also threw in the cape and in the fall. He also threw 103 in '10 at FGC plus another 35 in pro ball. By comparison, David Price threw 69, 51, and 133 in college, then 113 and 162 in the minors, followed by 208 and 224 his first 2 years in MLB, plus playoffs.

SCCWS
07-08-2012, 08:52 AM
Sale did not pitch in Little League so he should be able to handle the extra volume.

LITTLE NELL
07-08-2012, 09:08 AM
Teams keep babying pitchers, what the Sox did last year with 6 starters is going to be the norm in a few more years.

kevingrt
07-08-2012, 09:46 AM
Sale did not pitch in Little League so he should be able to handle the extra volume.

Perfect analysis.

SI1020
07-08-2012, 09:51 AM
How did those Joba rules work out?

Then again, how did Dusty's usage of Prior with 150 pitch counts work out?
Dusty Baker was unfairly blamed for the demise of Prior by many. The problem was with Prior and his motion, not his manager. He also never threw more than 135 pitches in a game.

KMcMahon817
07-08-2012, 10:27 AM
I don't know if we can reasonably expect either of these guys to remain effective through the end of the season, but I guess we'll find out.

We are going to HAVE to find out. No other way around it.

I posted this last year when there was a discussion about Sale moving to the roation...there were several times in college when Sale threw in excess of 140 IP in a year. He played in the Cape Cod League and other leagues throughout the year...not just the college season. I went through and actually calculated it once, and it was definitely north of 140 IP a couple times.

Cooper, and others, have said they aren't putting an IP cap on Sale. Which is a wonderful decision.

BRDSR
07-08-2012, 11:01 AM
Honest question. Do you believe Strasburg's injury had anything to do with overuse during the 2010 season?

Not overuse per se...more like different use. I think there is a tendency for young, talented pitchers to give it a little something extra at the big league level. Whether that's trying to put an extra MPH on their fastball or a little more torque on a breaking ball, I think many young pitchers are more prone to fatigue or injury based on a major league inning pitched than a minor league or college inning pitched.

bigdommer
07-08-2012, 11:11 AM
Dusty Baker was unfairly blamed for the demise of Prior by many. The problem was with Prior and his motion, not his manager. He also never threw more than 135 pitches in a game.

Exactly. Everybody's body and motion are different, so pointless to apply arbitrary limits.

fram40
07-08-2012, 01:01 PM
I believe ths issue is the drastic increase in workload over the course of one season: going from 56 or 60 innings to 200+ (Sale) or 100 innings to 200+ (Qiuintana)

I would like to see the number of innings pitched by Mussina, Drysdale, et al the year(s) prior to theoir rookie seasons

Regrading Pryor - I thought he had good mechanics. It was Wood that everyone (Stoney, specifically) always mentioned as horrible mechanics leading to injury. Same with Strasbourg - that "inverted 'W'" that invariably leads to Tommy John surgery

mzh
07-08-2012, 01:29 PM
I believe ths issue is the drastic increase in workload over the course of one season: going from 56 or 60 innings to 200+ (Sale) or 100 innings to 200+ (Qiuintana)

I would like to see the number of innings pitched by Mussina, Drysdale, et al the year(s) prior to theoir rookie seasons

Regrading Pryor - I thought he had good mechanics. It was Wood that everyone (Stoney, specifically) always mentioned as horrible mechanics leading to injury. Same with Strasbourg - that "inverted 'W'" that invariably leads to Tommy John surgery
Mussina had never thrown more than 122 innings before throwing 240 in 1993.

For all of the Priors, Woods and Strasburgs, here are some more recent reference points:

Cole Hamels threw 180+ in 2006 without having thrown more than 101 IP
Justin Verlander threw 180+ in 2006 without having thrown more than 120
Jered Weaver threw 200 in 2006 without having thrown more than 76
Clayton Kershaw threw 170+ in 2008 without having thrown more than 120
David Price threw 170+ in 2009 without having thrown more than 110

Every pitcher is different. Say what you want about Coop, but he's one of the best at what he does. I'll trust him to do what's necessary if he seriously thinks that Sale is going to hurt himself.

dickallen15
07-08-2012, 01:37 PM
I believe ths issue is the drastic increase in workload over the course of one season: going from 56 or 60 innings to 200+ (Sale) or 100 innings to 200+ (Qiuintana)

I would like to see the number of innings pitched by Mussina, Drysdale, et al the year(s) prior to theoir rookie seasons

Regrading Pryor - I thought he had good mechanics. It was Wood that everyone (Stoney, specifically) always mentioned as horrible mechanics leading to injury. Same with Strasbourg - that "inverted 'W'" that invariably leads to Tommy John surgery
Prior also had an inverted W.

fram40
07-08-2012, 02:04 PM
Mussina had never thrown more than 122 innings before throwing 240 in 1993.

For all of the Priors, Woods and Strasburgs, here are some more recent reference points:

Cole Hamels threw 180+ in 2006 without having thrown more than 101 IP
Justin Verlander threw 180+ in 2006 without having thrown more than 120
Jered Weaver threw 200 in 2006 without having thrown more than 76
Clayton Kershaw threw 170+ in 2008 without having thrown more than 120
David Price threw 170+ in 2009 without having thrown more than 110

Every pitcher is different. Say what you want about Coop, but he's one of the best at what he does. I'll trust him to do what's necessary if he seriously thinks that Sale is going to hurt himself.

Verlander is (and will be, I suspect) the exception to a lot of "the rules" Thanks for the info and clarifications.

I, too, trust Coop and Herm to do the right thing

34 Inch Stick
07-11-2012, 04:59 PM
7 man rotation when Humber and Danks return

MtGrnwdSoxFan
07-11-2012, 06:57 PM
7 man rotation when Humber and Danks return

You forgot the teal.