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View Full Version : Reggie Jackson: Carter, Puckett, Niekro don't belong in Hall


Southsider101
07-05-2012, 03:20 PM
Say what you will about the guy, he still knows how to stir the drink:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/magazine/07/05/reggie-jackson-where-are-they-now-phil-taylor/index.html

downstairs
07-05-2012, 04:10 PM
Meh. I'm done with the whole debate. The hall is so watered down now, its just going to get worse.

I propose this:

Fine- let these guys in. But they should have two tiers. Call one of them "Hall of Baseball Legends".

Put the Ruths, Jackie Robinson's, Mickey Mantles, Cal Ripkens (etc.) in there. The others stay in the lower tier.

The other thing that bothers me is the someone doesn't need to be inducted as a member of the hall to be remembered there. There are all sorts of displays honoring other players and achievements, even if their plaque is not in the hall. Let them have that.

Golden Sox
07-05-2012, 05:04 PM
Everybody is entitled to their own opinion but I think they have let people into the HOF who have no business being in there. I NEVER thought I would live to see the day when Walter O'Malley and Ron Santo would be elected to the HOF.

RKMeibalane
07-05-2012, 05:12 PM
Say what you will about the guy, he still knows how to stir the drink:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/magazine/07/05/reggie-jackson-where-are-they-now-phil-taylor/index.html

There are a number of players in the HOF who don't belong there. Why Jackson feels the need to single these men out is something I don't understand. I can't help but note the irony that two of these men are dead, and can't, therefore, respond to his comments. Jackson should just ****. This debate is tired and old.

SI1020
07-05-2012, 08:13 PM
There are a number of players in the HOF who don't belong there. Why Jackson feels the need to single these men out is something I don't understand. I can't help but note the irony that two of these men are dead, and can't, therefore, respond to his comments. Jackson should just ****. This debate is tired and old. It's actually a pretty damn good article, HOF talk is only a small part of it. A real good read when almost everything else is so cliche ridden and dumbed down. As for the "debate" it is anything but tired and old. Baseball continues to lower the bar for entrance into it's HOF and soon many suspected and known steroid users are going to become eligible. It will be more than interesting to see how that story enfolds.

Daver
07-05-2012, 08:44 PM
Niekro is a self admitted cheater, and someone gets criticized for pointing out that he is unfit for the hall?


Whatever, the baseball HOF is an utter joke anyway.

Brian26
07-05-2012, 09:46 PM
It's actually a pretty damn good article, HOF talk is only a small part of it.

I just read it....a very well-written article. The HOF portion was just a few sentences (and he doesn't really "single" anyone out since he mentioned at least six guys and sounds like he could have kept going). Rice has no business being there, so he's spot-on all the way.

Wedema
07-05-2012, 09:46 PM
Maybe Jackson brought this up now due to the fact of who is getting inducted in a couple of weeks.

cub killer
07-05-2012, 11:08 PM
What else would you expect from a guy who tried to kill QE2?

chisox59
07-05-2012, 11:28 PM
I've often wondered how Jackson himself was elected so quickly to the Hall of Fame. He was a 2-tool player. He could hit for power and run. He was horrible defensively, I don't remember a strong, accurate arm and he hit squat for average. He's near the bottom in slugging for those in the 500+ club as well. It's too bad home runs light up the writer's eyes like they do. They tend to miss all the other nuances of the game that are just as important.

RKMeibalane
07-05-2012, 11:31 PM
Maybe Jackson brought this up now due to the fact of who is getting inducted in a couple of weeks.

Barry Larkin was the best shortstop in the National League for several seasons. He was the 1995 MVP, and was the best player on a Cincinnati Reds team that won the 1990 World Series, defeating a team of steroid-using *******s. He never did anything spectacular, which is probably why he's so underappreciated by baseball fans, but he did everything (hit, run, throw, and field) well. Were it not for Ozzie Smith's popularity, Larkin would have held down the starting spot in the All Star Game throughout the '90s.

happydude
07-06-2012, 12:44 AM
It's actually a pretty damn good article, HOF talk is only a small part of it. A real good read when almost everything else is so cliche ridden and dumbed down. As for the "debate" it is anything but tired and old. Baseball continues to lower the bar for entrance into it's HOF and soon many suspected and known steroid users are going to become eligible. It will be more than interesting to see how that story enfolds.

I thought so, too. I really enjoyed it; almost all of the personal stuff about Jackson was brand new to me. Referring to guys by name may make for some awkward moments at the annual get togethers but if Reggie doesn't care neither do I.

Out of the Big 3, the baseball HOF has always seemed the most difficult to gain entry into; that's probably still true, but of late there definitely have been a few selections that seem inconsistent with standards that, at least, appeared to exist for decades beforehand.

JB98
07-06-2012, 11:31 AM
I thought so, too. I really enjoyed it; almost all of the personal stuff about Jackson was brand new to me. Referring to guys by name may make for some awkward moments at the annual get togethers but if Reggie doesn't care neither do I.

Out of the Big 3, the baseball HOF has always seemed the most difficult to gain entry into; that's probably still true, but of late there definitely have been a few selections that seem inconsistent with standards that, at least, appeared to exist for decades beforehand.

I think the steroid era has caused that. A lot of the players who are new to the ballot are tainted, and people don't want to vote for them. But the writers feel like they need to vote for *somebody*, so they end up voting for guys who were good players, but not necessarily HOFers (Carter, Dawson, Rice, Blyleven, etc.).

happydude
07-06-2012, 11:55 AM
I think the steroid era has caused that. A lot of the players who are new to the ballot are tainted, and people don't want to vote for them. But the writers feel like they need to vote for *somebody*, so they end up voting for guys who were good players, but not necessarily HOFers (Carter, Dawson, Rice, Blyleven, etc.).

I hadn't considered the connection beforehand. I think this is a very good point.

TheVulture
07-06-2012, 07:18 PM
I've often wondered how Jackson himself was elected so quickly to the Hall of Fame. He was a 2-tool player. He could hit for power and run. He was horrible defensively, I don't remember a strong, accurate arm and he hit squat for average. He's near the bottom in slugging for those in the 500+ club as well. It's too bad home runs light up the writer's eyes like they do. They tend to miss all the other nuances of the game that are just as important.

I'd probably take Kirby over Reggie on my team, but it would be a tough call. Hard to go wrong with a .350 hitting gold glove centerfielder, though.

WLL1855
07-06-2012, 10:19 PM
I've often wondered how Jackson himself was elected so quickly to the Hall of Fame. He was a 2-tool player. He could hit for power and run. He was horrible defensively, I don't remember a strong, accurate arm and he hit squat for average. He's near the bottom in slugging for those in the 500+ club as well. It's too bad home runs light up the writer's eyes like they do. They tend to miss all the other nuances of the game that are just as important.

Reggie Jackson was Adam Dunn before we had Adam Dunn. With a lot fewer walks.

ZombieRob
07-06-2012, 11:10 PM
Reggie Jackson was Adam Dunn before we had Adam Dunn. With a lot fewer walks.
Ozzie Smith should be added to the list. Mediorce bat great defense and did back flips. Hall worthy? I think not

Lamp81
07-06-2012, 11:12 PM
The BHOF, is becoming watered down. It is becoming the Hall of Very Good, and not what it should be, only for excellent players.

Ron Santo being inducted is just another example. Santo was a very good ball player, but shouldn't be in the BHOF.

If we can get past the milestones that have traditionally allowed induction, like 500+ homers and 300+ wins, then Reggie probaly wasn't an Hall of Famer, and certainly not the Don Suttons and Phil Niekros of baseball.

WhiteSox5187
07-06-2012, 11:32 PM
Ozzie Smith should be added to the list. Mediorce bat great defense and did back flips. Hall worthy? I think not

An argument can be made that Ozzie Smith doesn't belong in the Hall but he was arguably the best defensive player at the most important defensive position on the field (he is the leader in terms of defensive WAR - for the record I hate WAR as a stat) and in the top 25 in stolen bases.

WhiteSox5187
07-06-2012, 11:35 PM
The BHOF, is becoming watered down. It is becoming the Hall of Very Good, and not what it should be, only for excellent players.

Ron Santo being inducted is just another example. Santo was a very good ball player, but shouldn't be in the BHOF.

If we can get past the milestones that have traditionally allowed induction, like 500+ homers and 300+ wins, then Reggie probaly wasn't an Hall of Famer, and certainly not the Don Suttons and Phil Niekros of baseball.

Reggie had 562 homers. When he retired he was sixth all time, if you take away the steroid guys he is still eighth. I think it's pretty hard to argue that Reggie Jackson does not belong in the Hall of Fame.

ZombieRob
07-06-2012, 11:38 PM
An argument can be made that Ozzie Smith doesn't belong in the Hall but he was arguably the best defensive player at the most important defensive position on the field (he is the leader in terms of defensive WAR - for the record I hate WAR as a stat) and in the top 25 in stolen bases.
Can't argue that at all and I'm with you. He got in more as an entertainer and because he was a great social moth.

WhiteSox5187
07-06-2012, 11:45 PM
Can't argue that at all and I'm with you. He got in more as an entertainer and because he was a great social moth.

I think you missed my argument, I would argue he didn't get in as an entertainer or a great social moth (I am not sure what that is) but rather because he was one of the if not the best defensive short stops to play the game and a really good base stealer. He got in on the same basis that a guy like Luis Aparicio did years before Ozzie Smith even retired.

Noneck
07-07-2012, 11:24 AM
I think you missed my argument, I would argue he didn't get in as an entertainer or a great social moth (I am not sure what that is) but rather because he was one of the if not the best defensive short stops to play the game and a really good base stealer. He got in on the same basis that a guy like Luis Aparicio did years before Ozzie Smith even retired.

Because of my love for Looie, I could never argue about ozzie smith.

happydude
07-07-2012, 01:04 PM
Reggie had 562 homers. When he retired he was sixth all time, if you take away the steroid guys he is still eighth. I think it's pretty hard to argue that Reggie Jackson does not belong in the Hall of Fame.

Agreed; 500 pre-steroid homers is an automatic ticket in in the same way
3,000 hits is an automatic ticket in.

SI1020
07-07-2012, 02:50 PM
Reggie Jackson was Adam Dunn before we had Adam Dunn. With a lot fewer walks. As John McEnroe used to say "You cannot be serious."

WLL1855
07-07-2012, 08:46 PM
As John McEnroe used to say "You cannot be serious."

It was about a half teal statement.

34rancher
07-07-2012, 08:51 PM
Reggie Jackson was Adam Dunn before we had Adam Dunn. With a lot fewer walks.

Despite being the all time strikeout leader Reggie has 3 seasons in the top 100 of k's (highest is #47). Reggie also played 21 seasons and has 10 seasons in the top 500 of mlb history. He won't be number 1 after this season, as thome probably will pass him.
Dunn is in the top 100 9 times (Highest being #5, but he's on pace for #1 this season).

Reggie is also a 14 time all star And 5 time world series champ. Adam has never even batted in a playoff game. C'mon man, this mr. October you are talking about. I mean the Yankees retired his number despite only playing 5 seasons there, not to mention he has his number retired in Oakland too.
Please.

BainesHOF
07-08-2012, 04:01 AM
I don't see why some can't accept the fact that there are top-shelf Hall of Famers and then there are second-tier Hall of Famers.

Nelson Foxtrot
07-08-2012, 04:03 AM
Firstly, those players clearly belong in the Hall. Secondly, imagine how amazing they would have been if they had the same advantage that Mark McGwire and Jose Canseco had - being introduced to Curt Wenzlaff, one of the nation's premier steroid dealers, by the man's close friend, employer, and housemate, Reggie Jackson.

SI1020
07-08-2012, 08:21 AM
Firstly, those players clearly belong in the Hall. Secondly, imagine how amazing they would have been if they had the same advantage that Mark McGwire and Jose Canseco had - being introduced to Curt Wenzlaff, one of the nation's premier steroid dealers, by the man's close friend, employer, and housemate, Reggie Jackson. Are you insinuating that Jackson took steroids or facilitated Wenzlaff in his dealings? California is full of wannabes and hangers on.

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2005-03-14/sports/18286420_1_curtis-wenzlaff-steroid-dealer-mark-mcgwire

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=4854379

Hitmen77
07-10-2012, 02:20 PM
The Yankees tell Jackson to stay away:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/yankees-reggie-jackson-stay-ripped-alex-rodriguez-sports-illustrated-article-article-1.1110762

Southsider101
07-10-2012, 02:57 PM
The Yankees pay Reggie $700,000 a year to be a glorified Wal-Mart greeter for the luxury suite ticket holders and a human crying towel for the players? Nice work if you can get it!

soxinem1
07-10-2012, 03:48 PM
Reggie had 562 homers. When he retired he was sixth all time, if you take away the steroid guys he is still eighth. I think it's pretty hard to argue that Reggie Jackson does not belong in the Hall of Fame.

You are talking about ONE area. He was a sub-par overall hitter. His defense was brutal, his arm sucked, and he sure killed a lot of rallies with his huge K numbers (esp for the era he played in).

Reggie should talk, IMHO. He is a borderline HOF player himself. At least Carter played solid defense most of his career at a tough position.


He should have been a DH as soon as it was adopted. Wasn't Reggie the guy who TWO managers went on record saying he was putting his candy bar, radios, and himself ahead of his team's best interests by even picking up an OF glove?

If it wasn't for the HR numbers and the three he hit in the ONE World Series game he would be just another player.

I believe Reggie was one of the inductees that started watering down the HOF entrants. His career accomplishments come in two categories: HR and K's. There was nothing superior about him.

mzh
07-10-2012, 05:04 PM
Steve Stone made an interesting point on the score today. When talking about the Yankees of the mid-late 70s, he said that with the game on the line, the one guy the opposing team did not want to pitch to was NOT Reggie- it was Thurman Munson.

WhiteSox5187
07-10-2012, 05:16 PM
You are talking about ONE area. He was a sub-par overall hitter. His defense was brutal, his arm sucked, and he sure killed a lot of rallies with his huge K numbers (esp for the era he played in).

Reggie should talk, IMHO. He is a borderline HOF player himself. At least Carter played solid defense most of his career at a tough position.


He should have been a DH as soon as it was adopted. Wasn't Reggie the guy who TWO managers went on record saying he was putting his candy bar, radios, and himself ahead of his team's best interests by even picking up an OF glove?

If it wasn't for the HR numbers and the three he hit in the ONE World Series game he would be just another player.

I believe Reggie was one of the inductees that started watering down the HOF entrants. His career accomplishments come in two categories: HR and K's. There was nothing superior about him.

Except his power. He also had an average in the high .280s several years in Oakland and New York and managed to steal 20+ bases as well. Maybe he was an atrocious fielder but so was Ted Williams, Jackson could hit and hit for power. That's why he's in the HOF, he belongs there.

PatK
07-11-2012, 04:11 PM
The irony of one PED user crying over the use by another

Oblong
07-11-2012, 07:24 PM
An argument can be made that Ozzie Smith doesn't belong in the Hall but he was arguably the best defensive player at the most important defensive position on the field (he is the leader in terms of defensive WAR - for the record I hate WAR as a stat) and in the top 25 in stolen bases.
A lot of Tiger fans hold it against Ozzie that he waltzed in while Trammell is on the outside looking in and only has a few more years of eligibility left. I don't count myself among them. The reason you state there for his defense is enough for Ozzie to get in. No need to knock Ozzie because someone else may be getting the shaft. Ozzie wasn't exactly a slouch at the plate either. No, he wasn't a slugger, but he also wasn't a total bum. From 1982 to 1993 he was had an OPS+ of 96. Factor in his defense and it's hands down a HOF career. He came along right as SS became an offensive position with Yount, Tram, Ripken, then the newer generation. But Smith was so far and away a superior defensive SS that it doesn't matter what he did offensively.

And I say this as a guy who had Tram posters all over my wall, who still got goosebumps watching him manage the team as an adult, and spent the 2009 Cubs/Tigers series constantly peering into the visitor dugout to see what Tram was doing.

TheVulture
07-12-2012, 11:28 AM
You are talking about ONE area. He was a sub-par overall hitter. .

Jackson wasn't a subpar overall hitter. That's nuts. He came up in the best pitching era of modern history, you have to bear in mind. In those days, .280 batting average was well above average. I'm pretty sure he was considered an above average outfielder when he was young, too, but that was before my time.

Madvora
07-12-2012, 02:34 PM
The irony of one PED user crying over the use by another
What? What did Reggie Jackson use?

Southsider101
07-12-2012, 03:50 PM
Looks like Reggie's beginning to backtrack today:

http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/mlb/162261915.html

Mohoney
07-16-2012, 10:03 PM
If it wasn't for the HR numbers and the three he hit in the ONE World Series game he would be just another player.

Yeah, I guess if he didn't accomplish something that only 12 other people in the history of the game have exceeded him in accomplishing, and at the time of his retirement, only 5 other people had exceeded him in accomplishing, he would be just another player.

Saying that Reggie Jackson is a borderline Hall of Famer is crazy. It's almost like the insanity that people talk about Adam Dunn around here.

I'm dismayed that Reggie has gone completely off the deep end lately and has decided to burn bridges left and right, but I'm certainly not going to crucify him for it just yet, and I certainly won't ever call his Hall of Fame credentials into question.

Zakath
07-16-2012, 10:13 PM
What else would you expect from a guy who tried to kill QE2?

Thank God for Enrico Palazzo...