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HomeFish
07-02-2012, 11:55 PM
He took days to make a decision on his proposed trade to the Dodgers, and has apparently vetoed it.

They seem to hate him there:
http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2012/07/astros_trade_carlos_lee.php

doublem23
07-03-2012, 07:44 AM
Kind of funny they call El Caballo's deal one of the worst in Houston sports history the same weekend they offer a backup center who averages 3 points and 5 boards per game $15 M a year.

RKMeibalane
07-03-2012, 08:12 AM
Kind of funny they call El Caballo's deal one of the worst in Houston sports history the same weekend they offer a backup center who averages 3 points and 5 boards per game $15 a year.

No one said that they had common sense.

Over By There
07-03-2012, 08:51 AM
The fact that he preferred to languish in Houston rather than go play in LA says a lot about Carlos Lee.

beasly213
07-03-2012, 09:20 AM
The fact that he preferred to languish in Houston rather than go play in LA says a lot about Carlos Lee.


Or he has no desire to move his family...

Frater Perdurabo
07-03-2012, 10:00 AM
Or he has no desire to move his family...

Perhaps, but I also think he's one of those players who puts up nice individual stats each year, but ultimately contributes to a team environment where the team is less than the sum of its parts.

Over By There
07-03-2012, 10:13 AM
Or he has no desire to move his family...

I figured that would be the counter argument, but it doesn't really negate my point, which is that the guy just doesn't care about winning. He is 36 years old, and to the best of my recollection has never been on a team that has even sniffed a championship. Not only that, but look at how bad the Astros have been the last few years, as his career is winding down. But that is preferable to having to rent an apartment in LA to play for a good team in a wide-open National League.

On Sunday there were conflicting reports about which side pulled out of the deal - some saying that Lee had exercised his veto, some saying that the Dodgers backed out when they heard how unenthusiastic he was about playing for them. I don't blame the Dodgers one bit if true. I used to enjoy cheering for Caballo when he played for the Sox, but aside for remembering that he helped us get Podsednik, I will remember him as little more than an ambivalent mercenary.

Domeshot17
07-03-2012, 10:17 AM
I don't get it, Derek Lee did the same thing a few years ago with the Cubs because of his family and he was not criminalized for it. Carlos Lee does it and he is a loser.

cws05champ
07-03-2012, 10:33 AM
I don't get it, Derek Lee did the same thing a few years ago with the Cubs because of his family and he was not criminalized for it. Carlos Lee does it and he is a loser.
I beg to differ, there were lots of Cubs fans that were upset that he didn't want to go somewhere to get some value for him. Same deal here....I understand that these guys are human, and have families homes etc. But again, it's Summer....kids are out of school for the next 6 weeks, and he would only be going for 2.5 months with a chance to win. After the season move back to Houston and sign on to be their DH for next years move to the AL.

DumpJerry
07-03-2012, 10:35 AM
Maybe he forgot that he won't be playing the Cubs so much after this season to pad his stats.

Over By There
07-03-2012, 10:36 AM
I don't get it, Derek Lee did the same thing a few years ago with the Cubs because of his family and he was not criminalized for it. Carlos Lee does it and he is a loser.

I'm certainly not saying Carlos is the only player worthy of derision, and frankly I don't remember the Derrek Lee deal well, but Derrek had already won a championship with the Marlins. Part of my scorn for Carlos is that the guy has never been close to winning anything, and when given a chance, late in his career, he still apparently has no interest; preferring to play out the string on a bad team.

Chez
07-03-2012, 10:55 AM
I'm certainly not saying Carlos is the only player worthy of derision, and frankly I don't remember the Derrek Lee deal well, but Derrek had already won a championship with the Marlins. Part of my scorn for Carlos is that the guy has never been close to winning anything, and when given a chance, late in his career, he still apparently has no interest; preferring to play out the string on a bad team.


I seem to recall the Sox winning the AL Central in 2000 with a leftfielder named "Carlos Lee." Same guy, right?

dickallen15
07-03-2012, 11:00 AM
The guy discussed it with his wife and wanted to stay in Houston. It appears LA backed out before he said no officially, but it is his right, championship or not. Its not like he's guaranteed a championship if he went to LA. We don't know what his life consists of. I'm sure there are compelling reasons in his mind to veto the trade. It doesn't make him a loser. I find it hard to believe picking your family over a shot at winning is acting like a loser. Besides, its not like Houston was acquiring top prospects anyway.

dickallen15
07-03-2012, 11:01 AM
I seem to recall the Sox winning the AL Central in 2000 with a leftfielder named "Carlos Lee." Same guy, right?

Don't bring things like that up. It ruins the argument.

Over By There
07-03-2012, 11:17 AM
I seem to recall the Sox winning the AL Central in 2000 with a leftfielder named "Carlos Lee." Same guy, right?

Fair point - for some reason I was thinking his Sox debut was after that.

It doesn't make him a loser. I find it hard to believe picking your family over a shot at winning is acting like a loser.

You're putting words in my mouth. But don't stop, it would ruin the argument.

TheOldRoman
07-03-2012, 11:18 AM
I don't get it, Derek Lee did the same thing a few years ago with the Cubs because of his family and he was not criminalized for it. Carlos Lee does it and he is a loser.Derrek Lee blocked a trade to LAA in part because his daughter is sick with a serious illness and he wanted to be closer to home. He ended up accepting a trade to the Braves a few weeks later.

Don't bring things like that up. It ruins the argument.It doesn't really. The team won a division, but wasn't close to winning a world series. He has played in three playoff games in his career. Maybe he thinks the Dodgers aren't a great situation and is waiting for a better team to trade for him. That would be risky since he is not a good player anymore and won't be in high demand.

white sox bill
07-03-2012, 01:35 PM
I seem to recall the Sox winning the AL Central in 2000 with a leftfielder named "Carlos Lee." Same guy, right?
CLee probably regrets every minute of it!

TomBradley72
07-03-2012, 02:12 PM
A 36 yo ballplayer after 15 or so major league seasons has spent at least 60+ months away from home between road games and spring training- it's pretty pathetic for anyone to think that they can make that personal decision for someone without any clue as to what is going on with the players personal life, marriage, children, etc.

No matter what the career opportunity- if it took me away from my family from now through September/October- and I didn't need the opportunity for financial reasons- I'd probably turn it down.

Over By There
07-03-2012, 03:01 PM
A 36 yo ballplayer after 15 or so major league seasons has spent at least 60+ months away from home between road games and spring training- it's pretty pathetic for anyone to think that they can make that personal decision for someone without any clue as to what is going on with the players personal life, marriage, children, etc.

No matter what the career opportunity- if it took me away from my family from now through September/October- and I didn't need the opportunity for financial reasons- I'd probably turn it down.

I wouldn't respond again if I didn't feel like I was just called pathetic. Listen, I wouldn't make the choice to be away from my family a lot, either. But here's the thing - and you make this point yourself - hasn't he already made the decision to be away from his family large periods of time just by being a professional ball player?

As is said so often when it comes to sports discussions on sports radio or on message boards, it's pretty disingenuous to compare your own personal situation with one of a multi-millionaire sports star. I work a white-collar job and travel maybe once a month for work. So does it sound palatable for me to move to LA without my family for several months? No, but I'm coming from a vastly different place than a guy who is nearing the end of his career, is already used to being on the road several months per year, and has all the financial resources in the world.

Let me sum up my position and move on. Carlos Lee earned what he has, including his no-trade. That's fine. And if it turns out that he's in a failing marriage, or one of his kids is in trouble, or in the midst of being treated for an illness in Houston, or whatever, I would completely understand that. And if that turns out to be the case, I will gladly admit he made the right decision. (FWIW, I did go out and do some Googling for a while to search for any mention of problems with his family, health or otherwise. I wasn't able to come up with anything, and nothing has been alluded to by the media.) But when you see athletes in the same position gladly accept trades and new opportunities at the end of their career in order to chase the elusive title, I happen to respect and admire that. If Carlos Lee has made the decision to spend a little more time with his family or at his ranches in Texas instead of chasing the elusive ring, that's absolutely his prerogative. But it doesn't mean we can't look at him a little differently than someone who chases opportunities to win at the end of their career.

doublem23
07-03-2012, 03:15 PM
What really surprises me about all of this is that Lee is getting roasted as the "bad guy" and the Astros GM is being treated like a brilliant tactician. Uh, did he ever ask El Caballo about what teams he might veto a trade to before he negotiated the move? I can only imagine what would happen if the Sox were tanking and KW orchestrated a deal to move AJ or Rios or whomever, only to have them come back and say no; he'd be crushed as a dimwit who wasted his time trading a guy who didn't want to move.

Unless the Astros' plan here is to make Carlos the bad guy.

spawn
07-03-2012, 04:22 PM
The thing that gets me is the guy has 10/5 rights. Even if he weren't interested in winning a championship, so what? He's earned the right to veto a trade to a place he doesn't want to go to, no matter the circumstances. :shrug:

DumpJerry
07-03-2012, 04:27 PM
Isn't this a bit like the first time Kenny traded for Peavy? Jake said no. Then Jake went on the DL and the market for his services dried up.

Just saying......

TomBradley72
07-03-2012, 05:40 PM
I wouldn't respond again if I didn't feel like I was just called pathetic. Listen, I wouldn't make the choice to be away from my family a lot, either. But here's the thing - and you make this point yourself - hasn't he already made the decision to be away from his family large periods of time just by being a professional ball player?

As is said so often when it comes to sports discussions on sports radio or on message boards, it's pretty disingenuous to compare your own personal situation with one of a multi-millionaire sports star. I work a white-collar job and travel maybe once a month for work. So does it sound palatable for me to move to LA without my family for several months? No, but I'm coming from a vastly different place than a guy who is nearing the end of his career, is already used to being on the road several months per year, and has all the financial resources in the world.

Let me sum up my position and move on. Carlos Lee earned what he has, including his no-trade. That's fine. And if it turns out that he's in a failing marriage, or one of his kids is in trouble, or in the midst of being treated for an illness in Houston, or whatever, I would completely understand that. And if that turns out to be the case, I will gladly admit he made the right decision. (FWIW, I did go out and do some Googling for a while to search for any mention of problems with his family, health or otherwise. I wasn't able to come up with anything, and nothing has been alluded to by the media.) But when you see athletes in the same position gladly accept trades and new opportunities at the end of their career in order to chase the elusive title, I happen to respect and admire that. If Carlos Lee has made the decision to spend a little more time with his family or at his ranches in Texas instead of chasing the elusive ring, that's absolutely his prerogative. But it doesn't mean we can't look at him a little differently than someone who chases opportunities to win at the end of their career.

Hey- it was not a personal attack in any way- I just think people can have alot going on their private lives that none of us could possibly understand.

I felt the same way as youdo about Kerry Wood when he chose the Cubs over the Yankees. Life is short- people make all kinds of decisions for very personal reasons that they think are more important than a ring, the post season, etc.

shes
07-03-2012, 08:28 PM
Kind of funny they call El Caballo's deal one of the worst in Houston sports history the same weekend they offer a backup center who averages 3 points and 5 boards per game $15 M a year.

They didn't offer anything close to $15M per year for Asik.

doublem23
07-03-2012, 11:04 PM
They didn't offer anything close to $15M per year for Asik.

You're right, only $14 M a year by the end of the deal. I'll try to stop rounding.

DSpivack
07-03-2012, 11:06 PM
You're right, only $14 M a year by the end of the deal. I'll try to stop rounding.

$5 mil, then $5.5 mil, then $14.5, which averages to $8 million, not $14 million.

soxfanreggie
07-03-2012, 11:08 PM
You're right, only $14 M a year by the end of the deal. I'll try to stop rounding.

Isn't that for the Bulls who can only pay $5 mil in year 1? I believe the Rockets or most any other team can spread the money out evenly.

DSpivack
07-03-2012, 11:13 PM
Isn't that for the Bulls who can only pay $5 mil in year 1? I believe the Rockets or most any other team can spread the money out evenly.

As a restricted free agent, as far as I understand, an outside team can only offer him about $5 million this coming season. Thus, the offer is for $5 million in 2012-13, $5.5 million in 2013-14, and ~$14.5 million in 2014-15. Another reason that it's structured that way is to make the 3rd year a "poison pill", that Houston obviously doesn't want to pay Asik that much in any one given season, but are fine paying him $8 million/year (which I think is still too much). The poison pill 3rd year is to discourage the Bulls from matching the offer sheet.

I wish the NBA would solve this and do what the NHL does, as far as I understand it: for salary cap purposes, the average annual value is what matters as a salary cap hit for any one year, instead of finagling oddly shaped contracts with poison pills such as this one.

Tragg
07-04-2012, 12:21 AM
There's no market for Carlos Lee at all.
Honestly, barring some serious personal situation, he really ought to move on and give the Astros a salary break and let them work on their rebuilding....I see it more as a benefit to Houston, the team who treated him so well than the Dodgers...really, anyone who gives a decent prospect for Lee should have their head examined.

dickallen15
07-04-2012, 09:34 AM
There's no market for Carlos Lee at all.
Honestly, barring some serious personal situation, he really ought to move on and give the Astros a salary break and let them work on their rebuilding....I see it more as a benefit to Houston, the team who treated him so well than the Dodgers...really, anyone who gives a decent prospect for Lee should have their head examined.

I also read it would have cost CLee almost $1 million in additional taxes to go to LA.

#1swisher
07-04-2012, 05:45 PM
Buster Olney

Sources: The Marlins are trading Matt Dominguez and P Rob Rasmussen for Carlos Lee.

soxinem1
07-04-2012, 05:48 PM
Wow. Ozzie didn't think CLee was a 'winner' when he was here.

Now MIA expects a declining Carlos to help ignite the 'winners' in South Florida?

Rocky Soprano
07-04-2012, 05:50 PM
Buster Olney

Sources: The Marlins are trading Matt Dominguez and P Rob Rasmussen for Carlos Lee.

He better learn how to slide hard into 2B.

#1swisher
07-04-2012, 06:01 PM
Ken Rosenthal
Source: Astros covering all of Lee's salary but pro-rated portion of minimum. He is owed about $9 million for the rest of the season.

Source: Marlins were not on Lee's limited no-trade list. In other words, his approval was NOT needed for the trade.

Juan C Rodriguez
Marlins have acquired Lee for Dominguez and Rasmussen. Astros paying remainder of Lee's $18.5M salary minus pro-rated minimum.

RKMeibalane
07-04-2012, 06:41 PM
:rolling:

Is anyone besides me amused by the idea of Lee being reunited not only with Ozzie Guillen, but also with Mark Buehrle? It's the 2004 Chicago White Sox all over again.

mzh
07-04-2012, 06:50 PM
Wasn't Dominguez a pretty highly regarded prospect not long ago? A little perplexed as to why anyone would give anything of value for Carlos.

RKMeibalane
07-04-2012, 06:55 PM
Wasn't Dominguez a pretty highly regarded prospect not long ago? A little perplexed as to why anyone would give anything of value for Carlos.

I'm more surprised that Carlos would want to play for the Marlins, but not the Dodgers. Granted, Miami is closer to Houston than Los Angeles, but without knowing more about the situation, it's hard to understand any of this.

Tragg
07-04-2012, 07:16 PM
I also read it would have cost CLee almost $1 million in additional taxes to go to LA.

Good call....Fla is a no income tax state, too.

DSpivack
07-04-2012, 07:36 PM
Wasn't Dominguez a pretty highly regarded prospect not long ago? A little perplexed as to why anyone would give anything of value for Carlos.

Once a highly touted prospect, Dominguez hasn't done much in the minors.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=doming001mat

ChicagoG19
07-04-2012, 10:08 PM
Is this this situation the whole point of the no-trade clause? If a player doesn't want to leave his team he doesn't have to do it. I have no problem with this. He put his family before winning. I think many on this board would do the same. (I wouldn't, but that's just me).

dickallen15
07-04-2012, 11:20 PM
Is this this situation the whole point of the no-trade clause? If a player doesn't want to leave his team he doesn't have to do it. I have no problem with this. He put his family before winning. I think many on this board would do the same. (I wouldn't, but that's just me).
He had a limited no trade. Apparently it superceded his 5 and 10 rights. Miami wasn't on the list so he had no say so. He still goes to a team with a chance and because of no state income taxes, comes out almost $1 million richer than had he have approved the trade to LA. I agree with you, if someone has negotiated a no trade or earned it with service time, I see no reason to question anything about them should they choose to use it.