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ChicagoG19
07-01-2012, 01:45 PM
It's a joke right? I feel like every ball hit out there is in the 2nd or 3rd deck.

*Mods, can you please move this to the Talking Baseball Forum. My bad.

LITTLE NELL
07-01-2012, 01:56 PM
It's a joke right? I feel like every ball hit out there is in the 2nd or 3rd deck.

*Mods, can you please move this to the Talking Baseball Forum. My bad.

I just mentioned that in the game thread, every flyball has a chance of landing in the seats.
If Dunn didn't strike out so much he could hit 80 HRs there.

VenturaFan23
07-01-2012, 02:43 PM
No kidding. A routine fly ball from from a washed up dinosaur like Eric Chavez becomes an upper deck shot. What a joke.

mantis1212
07-01-2012, 02:47 PM
Exact dimensions of the old Yankee Stadium correct? I wonder how many of the Babe's 715 wouldn't have been in another home ballpark.

Frater Perdurabo
07-01-2012, 03:16 PM
If I were an AL East team, I would stockpile LHP and juggle my rotation to have all of them pitch against the Yankees.

Adele_H
07-01-2012, 07:21 PM
It's a joke right? I feel like every ball hit out there is in the 2nd or 3rd deck.




No kidding. A routine fly ball from from a washed up dinosaur like Eric Chavez becomes an upper deck shot. What a joke.


In the post-game thread TDog I think it was made an in-depth post to that effect and I let it go...... appears this misconception is common if not contageous.

The problem is NOT Yankee stadium. It's just as easy to hit a HR at the Cell during the summer -- in fact, it's even easier to hit HR at the Cell to LF-LCF-CF. Paul Konerko, Alexei Ramirez, post-2008 Carlos Quentin, even aging Frank Thomas circa 2003-2004 padded their stats at Cell with noone complaining.

Eric Chavez HR? Would have been a HR in 3/4 of ballparks, certainly at the Cell. No, it wouldn't have been in the 2nd deck, but even "short" HR count the same. You know who is at fault there? Not the park. It's Give-back Gavin who apparently was so upset with Raul Ibanez's temerity to steal 2B since Gavin wasn't paying attention to him at 1b...that Gavin completely forgot about the batter at the plate yet again. End result: a hanger RIGHT SMACK DAB IN ERIC CHAVEZ WHEELHOUSE. Batting practice city. (It's the kind of pitch Eric Chavez hit 495 feet off Gary Glover at the Cell in the olden days. But even at age 50 Chavez could probably hit a HR off that pitch not only because of it's location but also because it sped up his aging bat perfectly)

Curtis Granderson? Like most LH, he too loves knee-high pitches middle-in -- except unlike Chavez, his preference is a (straight) fastball. Which Jake Peavy promptly served on an 0-1 count on Sat IIRC. I mean, what was USS Alabama thinking there? I can maybe see challenging Granderson on a 3-0/3-1/2-0 count, even then you don't give in since bases were empty, but whatever at least I can understand it, but on 0-1 count? It's baseball-stupid. Nothing to do with Yankee stadium.

(Yes, Granderson's HR off Quintana was more off a cheapie, but even then a pitch location was not smart in the game context. Compare that to the way Kuroda and Hughes after the shaky 1st inning made conscious effort to force the Sox to beat them to OPPOSITE field --- which is much harder for pretty much 99% of hitters)

And then there is fastballs down broadway to Dewayne Wise, especially with 2 outs, 1st base empty, 1st-pitch hacking visibly Wise anxious to come up with an RBI against his former team, basically the repeat of 9th place hitter Jeme Carroll situation in Minnesota -- where even a decent breaking ball is pretty much guaranteed to get him out; there is a reason why Wise is a 9th place hitter borderline major league scrub: both his pitch-recognition & hand-eye coordination are suspect. However, one thing he could also do is yank those hands through quickly through the hitting zone if the pitch is straight (see: get-me-over 1st pitch fastballs... playing right into Wise hands. Mercy!

TDog
07-01-2012, 09:57 PM
Exact dimensions of the old Yankee Stadium correct? I wonder how many of the Babe's 715 wouldn't have been in another home ballpark.

When Babe Ruth came to the Yankees, they played in the Polo Grounds, which was 258 down the right-field line, but it jutted out consideraby from there, moreso than Fenway Park. (I've seen pictures, and I believe the Polo Grounds bullpens were down the line in fair territory.) When the Yankees built their own ballpark, they built the dimensions to get the most out of Babe Ruth -- 296 down the right-field line with a low fence. I have read that it wasn't that Ruth was getting a lot of cheapies, and he did hit a home run over the roof at Old Comiskey the year the roof was added to accomodate bigger crowds that would come to see Ruth.

It isn't just a matter of dimensions, though. The ball in the new Yankee Stadium seems to carry better to right than the old one. There was a lot of discussion of this a couple of years ago. During the TBS broadcast today, the announcers were talking about how pop ups can become second-deck home runs. The Yankees come in on a hot afternoon with the ball carrying extremely well, stack their lineup with left-handed hitters against Floyd, and they are going to be concentrating on pulling fly balls. The trick is to make those hitters go to center or left or on the ground. Floyd couldn't throw strikes on the outside edge of the plate today.

It's a homefield advantage the Yankees capitalize on when they are successful. Their pitchers pitch to the bigger part of the ballpark. They take advantage of visiting players who try to change their swing to hit fly balls to right, taking themselves out of their offensive game.

Maybe the Yankees would have had two two-run homers if today's game was being played in the Cell. Floyd gives up a lot of home runs. But the White Sox probably would have had two to left, one with a man on base. And maybe they wouldn't have hit as many pop outs and fly outs.

Adele_H
07-01-2012, 11:24 PM
When Babe Ruth came to the Yankees, they played in the Polo Grounds, which was 258 down the right-field line, but it jutted out consideraby from there, moreso than Fenway Park. (I've seen pictures, and I believe the Polo Grounds bullpens were down the line in fair territory.) When the Yankees built their own ballpark, they built the dimensions to get the most out of Babe Ruth -- 296 down the right-field line with a low fence. I have read that it wasn't that Ruth was getting a lot of cheapies, and he did hit a home run over the roof at Old Comiskey the year the roof was added to accomodate bigger crowds that would come to see Ruth.

It isn't just a matter of dimensions, though. The ball in the new Yankee Stadium seems to carry better to right than the old one. There was a lot of discussion of this a couple of years ago. During the TBS broadcast today, the announcers were talking about how pop ups can become second-deck home runs. The Yankees come in on a hot afternoon with the ball carrying extremely well, stack their lineup with left-handed hitters against Floyd, and they are going to be concentrating on pulling fly balls. The trick is to make those hitters go to center or left or on the ground. Floyd couldn't throw strikes on the outside edge of the plate today.

It's a homefield advantage the Yankees capitalize on when they are successful. Their pitchers pitch to the bigger part of the ballpark. They take advantage of visiting players who try to change their swing to hit fly balls to right, taking themselves out of their offensive game.

Maybe the Yankees would have had two two-run homers if today's game was being played in the Cell. Floyd gives up a lot of home runs. But the White Sox probably would have had two to left, one with a man on base. And maybe they wouldn't have hit as many pop outs and fly outs.

TDog, mah man, you know your stuff no doubt.... but why twist yourself in rhetorical pretzels like that?

Floyd couldn't command the outside corner? Uh, that's called BAD pitching. He foolishly pitched to the (LH) Yankees hitters' strength? That's called BAD pitching. He couldn't pitch out of the stretch and was probably distracted by Ibanez & Texeira on the base when giving up HR? That's called BAD pitching. Gavin immediately gave 2-run lead back? BAD pitching. That would be the "Giveback" part of Giveback Gavin.

Notice that Gavin's only got out of the bad bases loaded jam because one of the "benefits" of loading bases with no outs, is it allows the pitcher to pitch from the WIND-UP -- which Gavin strongly prefers much like I would guess 95% of starters. Unfortunately, baserunners do exist in baseball; you can't always pitch with bases empty, in perfect rhythm and unison with your catcher, with your infielders playing back, etc... therefore, that very chronic inability to pitch while varying timing of throws & slide-stepping out of the stretch also = BAD pitching.

Whose fault is it that Pink Floyd only starts uncorking beautiful curves AFTER he gives up the lead? Whose fault is it that Guru'est Guru Who Ever Guru'd, Don Cooper, more often than not only comes out to calm the pitcher down AFTER Sox blow the game.....Surely not the Yankee stadium dimensions or its wind-currents.

You mentioned that Yankees play to their home ballpark and otherwise exploit the visiting teams' weaknesses & bad habits? Surely someone who's watched baseball so many more years than I have is aware that your description of the Yankees comes awfully close to being a euphemism for "GOOD BASEBALL".

For instance, notice how Kuroda and Phil Hughes -- guys who are not that much better than Floyd if at all in terms of physical talent or draft pedigree......consistently avoided middle of the plate against the Sox in situations where not only conventional wisdom dictated but also where Sox seemingly were looking for get-me-over crap in their respective wheelhouse, esp. on 2-0, 3-0, 3-1? It's as if Joe Girardi, Russell Martin and Co. actually made, uh, tactical adjustments after getting their asses whooped on Thursday and Friday in that HR-ific fashion.

Adjustments....in baseball....That's unpossible! [/Ralph Wiggum]



In summation...2012 Gavin Floyd is bad baseball. Yankees are good baseball. The end.

Irishsoxfan
07-02-2012, 12:01 AM
TDog, mah man, you know your stuff no doubt.... but why twist yourself in rhetorical pretzels like that?

Floyd couldn't command the outside corner? Uh, that's called BAD pitching. He foolishly pitched to the (LH) Yankees hitters' strength? That's called BAD pitching. He couldn't pitch out of the stretch and was probably distracted by Ibanez & Texeira on the base when giving up HR? That's called BAD pitching. Gavin immediately gave 2-run lead back? BAD pitching. That would be the "Giveback" part of Giveback Gavin.

Notice that Gavin's only got out of the bad bases loaded jam because one of the "benefits" of loading bases with no outs, is it allows the pitcher to pitch from the WIND-UP -- which Gavin strongly prefers much like I would guess 95% of starters. Unfortunately, baserunners do exist in baseball; you can't always pitch with bases empty, in perfect rhythm and unison with your catcher, with your infielders playing back, etc... therefore, that very chronic inability to pitch while varying timing of throws & slide-stepping out of the stretch also = BAD pitching.

Whose fault is it that Pink Floyd only starts uncorking beautiful curves AFTER he gives up the lead? Whose fault is it that Guru'est Guru Who Ever Guru'd, Don Cooper, more often than not only comes out to calm the pitcher down AFTER Sox blow the game.....Surely not the Yankee stadium dimensions or its wind-currents.

You mentioned that Yankees play to their home ballpark and otherwise exploit the visiting teams' weaknesses & bad habits? Surely someone who's watched baseball so many more years than I have is aware that your description of the Yankees comes awfully close to being a euphemism for "GOOD BASEBALL".

For instance, notice how Kuroda and Phil Hughes -- guys who are not that much better than Floyd if at all in terms of physical talent or draft pedigree......consistently avoided middle of the plate against the Sox in situations where not only conventional wisdom dictated but also where Sox seemingly were looking for get-me-over crap in their respective wheelhouse, esp. on 2-0, 3-0, 3-1? It's as if Joe Girardi, Russell Martin and Co. actually made, uh, tactical adjustments after getting their asses whooped on Thursday and Friday in that HR-ific fashion.

Adjustments....in baseball....That's unpossible! [/Ralph Wiggum]



In summation...2012 Gavin Floyd is bad baseball. Yankees are good baseball. The end.
I recall he got out of that jam from the stretch.

TDog
07-02-2012, 12:16 AM
TDog, mah man, you know your stuff no doubt.... but why twist yourself in rhetorical pretzels like that?

Floyd couldn't command the outside corner? Uh, that's called BAD pitching. He foolishly pitched to the (LH) Yankees hitters' strength? That's called BAD pitching. He couldn't pitch out of the stretch and was probably distracted by Ibanez & Texeira on the base when giving up HR? That's called BAD pitching. Gavin immediately gave 2-run lead back? BAD pitching. That would be the "Giveback" part of Giveback Gavin.

Notice that Gavin's only got out of the bad bases loaded jam because one of the "benefits" of loading bases with no outs, is it allows the pitcher to pitch from the WIND-UP -- which Gavin strongly prefers much like I would guess 95% of starters. Unfortunately, baserunners do exist in baseball; you can't always pitch with bases empty, in perfect rhythm and unison with your catcher, with your infielders playing back, etc... therefore, that very chronic inability to pitch while varying timing of throws & slide-stepping out of the stretch also = BAD pitching.

Whose fault is it that Pink Floyd only starts uncorking beautiful curves AFTER he gives up the lead? Whose fault is it that Guru'est Guru Who Ever Guru'd, Don Cooper, more often than not only comes out to calm the pitcher down AFTER Sox blow the game.....Surely not the Yankee stadium dimensions or its wind-currents.

You mentioned that Yankees play to their home ballpark and otherwise exploit the visiting teams' weaknesses & bad habits? Surely someone who's watched baseball so many more years than I have is aware that your description of the Yankees comes awfully close to being a euphemism for "GOOD BASEBALL".

For instance, notice how Kuroda and Phil Hughes -- guys who are not that much better than Floyd if at all in terms of physical talent or draft pedigree......consistently avoided middle of the plate against the Sox in situations where not only conventional wisdom dictated but also where Sox seemingly were looking for get-me-over crap in their respective wheelhouse, esp. on 2-0, 3-0, 3-1? It's as if Joe Girardi, Russell Martin and Co. actually made, uh, tactical adjustments after getting their asses whooped on Thursday and Friday in that HR-ific fashion.

Adjustments....in baseball....That's unpossible! [/Ralph Wiggum]



In summation...2012 Gavin Floyd is bad baseball. Yankees are good baseball. The end.

I don't believe Floyd was as sharp with his control as he needed to be, and certainlty his curve wasn't as sharp as it was in his previous two scoreless outings when he apparently got away with being bad baseball, but I don't think the umpire was giving Floyd the outside edge of the plate. In the top of the first, I thought Hughes wasn't getting the outside part of the plate, but I think as the game progress he had enough movement where he didn't need it.

The Yankees didn't make tactical adjustments against Floyd. This is their home. This is the way they hit. It's the way they hit against Peavy Saturday. It's the way they hit against Axelrod on Thursday. It's the way they hit the Indians earlier in the week during the rest of their three-game sweep of Cleveland.

As poorly as Floyd pitched today, from both the windup and the stretch considering how well the Yankees hit him with no one on base, the Yankees didn't put together much offense. They only got one hit with a runner in scoring position, and they couldn't even score with the bases loaded and none out. The Yankees came into the game with the worst RISP batting average in the league. The White Sox came in with the best. Unfortunately, the White Sox only put five runners in scoring position all afternoon.

The Yankees didn't win today because Floyd was a bad pitcher. They won today because Hughes pitched a great game. The Yankees had three great starts from their rotation in the four game series, and they only won two of those games.

The White Sox didn't really have a bad series in New York, and they might have won three of four if in the 18 innings after Wise shut them down Friday night, they would have out-RBI-ed Wise over the next two games.

Adele_H
07-02-2012, 01:33 AM
I don't believe Floyd was as sharp with his control as he needed to be, and certainlty his curve wasn't as sharp as it was in his previous two scoreless outings when he apparently got away with being bad baseball, but I don't think the umpire was giving Floyd the outside edge of the plate. In the top of the first, I thought Hughes wasn't getting the outside part of the plate, but I think as the game progress he had enough movement where he didn't need it.

The Yankees didn't make tactical adjustments against Floyd. This is their home. This is the way they hit. It's the way they hit against Peavy Saturday. It's the way they hit against Axelrod on Thursday. It's the way they hit the Indians earlier in the week during the rest of their three-game sweep of Cleveland.

As poorly as Floyd pitched today, from both the windup and the stretch considering how well the Yankees hit him with no one on base, the Yankees didn't put together much offense. They only got one hit with a runner in scoring position, and they couldn't even score with the bases loaded and none out. The Yankees came into the game with the worst RISP batting average in the league. The White Sox came in with the best. Unfortunately, the White Sox only put five runners in scoring position all afternoon.

The Yankees didn't win today because Floyd was a bad pitcher. They won today because Hughes pitched a great game. The Yankees had three great starts from their rotation in the four game series, and they only won two of those games.

The White Sox didn't really have a bad series in New York, and they might have won three of four if in the 18 innings after Wise shut them down Friday night, they would have out-RBI-ed Wise over the next two games.

Holy succubus on a jello trampoline...TDog are you seriously desputing that 2012 Gavin is significantly worse out of the stretch than from the wind-up -- that there isn't a noticeable drop off in his comfort level & his stuff/command when he is under slightest bit of pressure with runner at 1st? Now I have not look at his situational splits, trust me, but even I can tell you that after looking at him for 5 minutes. Forget about numbers for a second: empirics before statistics, bro's before hhho, errr, alternatively-moraled ladies.... as it were. Just tell me if you're seeing any difference in Gavin's effectiveness.

Please read what I actually wrote. Yankees made adjustments alright. But not against Gavin -- he was hanger-city, as such no major adjustments were necessary ---> but rather in their PITCH-SELECTION and overall approach to the Sox hitters. How can you not notice with Kuroda slow-away-slower-awayer to RH.....in particular? Admittedly, it's much easier to nibble, change-speeds, do other fancy stuff with the lead if you're Phil Hughes who indeed looked shaky in the 1st -- but, again, whose fault is it that Sox had to fight from behind in both Sat and Sun games? Peavy and Floyd, first and freakin' fortemost. No excuses. That symbiotic Offense-pitching relationship, almost like a living organism as you yourself admitted in the past, in a context of each individual game is not exactly a novel concept, TDog.

It's not a case where Sox faced Verlander or Strasburg with overwhelming stuff. Even when Kuroda/Hughes missed their spots, they missed on the corner so even when Konerko for instance would guess fastball correctly, he would hit it very hard, but it would merely be a long single to opposite field with 2 outs --- which means that even if, say, Rios follows it up with double off a wall, Konerko still can't score. Whereas, when Sox pitchers Peavy, Quantana, Floyd missed, they missed IN Ganderson, Chavez, Wise, Cano wheelhouse --- say hell their spots, it was Hello 2nd tier deck in RF. Do you not see the difference?

Good baseball means, in part, pitching to the stadium. Pitching to the weaknesses. Pitching even when runners are running on the pitch. Or when the temp is 95 degree with high humidity (don't think I didn't notice Floyd sweating buckets out there). And dozen other such things.

Yankees lost what would have been a heart-breaker for the Sox on Thursday. Fluke including their reliever threowing a routine DP away, then fastball-averse Viciedo running into Robertson's cutter that was a good foot above his belt but for some reason didn't cut, wasn't even a strike the pitch Dayan hit. Then Yanks got shellacked on Friday. It's a sign of a (really) good team that Girardi had them bounce back in such a fundamentally-sound, clever fashion --- when it's the Sox that should have been pressure-free having already secured a split at minimum. That's all I am saying. I don't remember seeing people predict Kuroda and Phil Hughes dominance prior to the series around here, either.


You say sarcasically that "Bad" Floyd was good enough against Cubs and Twins as if it's a checkmate type of an arguement. It is not. Are you honestly telling me in all those years following baseball you haven't noticed that MEDIOCRE pitchers have a tendency to follow bouts of effectiveness with one of ineptitude that is even greater? That's one of the definining characteristics! Fits 2012 Floyd to a T. He could cruise one minute, seemingly in perfect harmony with his catcher, with the world at large.... and then once slightest adversity or distraction hits, a runner reaches bases, maybe an error, gets him out of the his wind-up, gets him thinking too much, maybe feat a bunt, myriad other things --- BOOM it all goes to heck.

Nobody says Floyd is not talented. In fact, it's his talent that it makes it all the more frustrating to see his Space Cadet act in 2012. At least his apologists don't throw "wait til he destroys worlds come June!" in everyone's face anymore.

TDog
07-02-2012, 11:58 AM
Holy succubus on a jello trampoline...TDog are you seriously desputing that 2012 Gavin is significantly worse out of the stretch than from the wind-up -- that there isn't a noticeable drop off in his comfort level & his stuff/command when he is under slightest bit of pressure with runner at 1st? Now I have not look at his situational splits, trust me, but even I can tell you that after looking at him for 5 minutes. Forget about numbers for a second: empirics before statistics, bro's before hhho, errr, alternatively-moraled ladies.... as it were. Just tell me if you're seeing any difference in Gavin's effectiveness.

Please read what I actually wrote. Yankees made adjustments alright. But not against Gavin -- he was hanger-city, as such no major adjustments were necessary ---> but rather in their PITCH-SELECTION and overall approach to the Sox hitters. How can you not notice with Kuroda slow-away-slower-awayer to RH.....in particular? Admittedly, it's much easier to nibble, change-speeds, do other fancy stuff with the lead if you're Phil Hughes who indeed looked shaky in the 1st -- but, again, whose fault is it that Sox had to fight from behind in both Sat and Sun games? Peavy and Floyd, first and freakin' fortemost. No excuses. That symbiotic Offense-pitching relationship, almost like a living organism as you yourself admitted in the past, in a context of each individual game is not exactly a novel concept, TDog.

It's not a case where Sox faced Verlander or Strasburg with overwhelming stuff. Even when Kuroda/Hughes missed their spots, they missed on the corner so even when Konerko for instance would guess fastball correctly, he would hit it very hard, but it would merely be a long single to opposite field with 2 outs --- which means that even if, say, Rios follows it up with double off a wall, Konerko still can't score. Whereas, when Sox pitchers Peavy, Quantana, Floyd missed, they missed IN Ganderson, Chavez, Wise, Cano wheelhouse --- say hell their spots, it was Hello 2nd tier deck in RF. Do you not see the difference?

Good baseball means, in part, pitching to the stadium. Pitching to the weaknesses. Pitching even when runners are running on the pitch. Or when the temp is 95 degree with high humidity (don't think I didn't notice Floyd sweating buckets out there). And dozen other such things.

Yankees lost what would have been a heart-breaker for the Sox on Thursday. Fluke including their reliever threowing a routine DP away, then fastball-averse Viciedo running into Robertson's cutter that was a good foot above his belt but for some reason didn't cut, wasn't even a strike the pitch Dayan hit. Then Yanks got shellacked on Friday. It's a sign of a (really) good team that Girardi had them bounce back in such a fundamentally-sound, clever fashion --- when it's the Sox that should have been pressure-free having already secured a split at minimum. That's all I am saying. I don't remember seeing people predict Kuroda and Phil Hughes dominance prior to the series around here, either.


You say sarcasically that "Bad" Floyd was good enough against Cubs and Twins as if it's a checkmate type of an arguement. It is not. Are you honestly telling me in all those years following baseball you haven't noticed that MEDIOCRE pitchers have a tendency to follow bouts of effectiveness with one of ineptitude that is even greater? That's one of the definining characteristics! Fits 2012 Floyd to a T. He could cruise one minute, seemingly in perfect harmony with his catcher, with the world at large.... and then once slightest adversity or distraction hits, a runner reaches bases, maybe an error, gets him out of the his wind-up, gets him thinking too much, maybe feat a bunt, myriad other things --- BOOM it all goes to heck.

Nobody says Floyd is not talented. In fact, it's his talent that it makes it all the more frustrating to see his Space Cadet act in 2012. At least his apologists don't throw "wait til he destroys worlds come June!" in everyone's face anymore.


A relief pitcher throwing a ball away on an attempted fielder's choice is not a fluke. It is something that happens sometimes. When it happens to the White Sox, no one here calls it a fluke. Teams that don't make plays lose games. It isn't a fluke that a player makes an error or doesn't make a play that fans insist their 10-year-old kids could make Check out the way the Giants won Sunday.

The Yankees didn't make a play on defense, not because the pitcher was struck by lightning, but because he made a poor play defensively, i.e., he wasn't good on that play. That was no more a fluke than Gavin Floyd giving up a game-tying home run to Chavez or Cano bouncing into a double play with the bases loaded and none out. They weren't good on those pitches. Baseball is about making the plays.

The White Sox could have won three out of four games in the series, and I'm disappointed they didn't win at least three. They could have won Sunday Hughes hadn't been quite so good. Floyd was bad, but he didn't take the Sox out of the game. Floyd wasn't as bad as the Indians pitchers were when the Yankees swept them before the Sox came to town. The Sox still brought the tying run to the plate in the ninth.

And maybe if the Yankees had started a no-name pitcher making his major league debut - i.e. White Sox kriptonite, or so I'm told -- the White Sox would have lost the second game in the series. So maybe it was a fluke they weren't swept. But they played the games, two of which were decided by two runs or less, and the White Sox and Yankees split. It wasn't a fluke. The White Sox played good baseball but couldn't do anything offensively against the Yankees starters in the day games.

asindc
07-02-2012, 12:33 PM
A relief pitcher throwing a ball away on an attempted fielder's choice is not a fluke. It is something that happens sometimes. When it happens to the White Sox, no one here calls it a fluke. Teams that don't make plays lose games. It isn't a fluke that a player makes an error or doesn't make a play that fans insist their 10-year-old kids could make Check out the way the Giants won Sunday.

The Yankees didn't make a play on defense, not because the pitcher was struck by lightning, but because he made a poor play defensively, i.e., he wasn't good on that play. That was no more a fluke than Gavin Floyd giving up a game-tying home run to Chavez or Cano bouncing into a double play with the bases loaded and none out. They weren't good on those pitches. Baseball is about making the plays.

The White Sox could have won three out of four games in the series, and I'm disappointed they didn't win at least three. They could have won Sunday Hughes hadn't been quite so good. Floyd was bad, but he didn't take the Sox out of the game. Floyd wasn't as bad as the Indians pitchers were when the Yankees swept them before the Sox came to town. The Sox still brought the tying run to the plate in the ninth.

And maybe if the Yankees had started a no-name pitcher making his major league debut - i.e. White Sox kriptonite, or so I'm told -- the White Sox would have lost the second game in the series. So maybe it was a fluke they weren't swept. But they played the games, two of which were decided by two runs or less, and the White Sox and Yankees split. It wasn't a fluke. The White Sox played good baseball but couldn't do anything offensively against the Yankees starters in the day games.

I'm glad you said that. It is quite annoying to read so many comments by some Sox fans who consider that a "lucky" win, when they would not say the same if it was the other way around. In fact, since the Sox are generally a better defensive team than NYY, you could argue that it would be more lucky if it had happened the other way around. Good teams sometimes make those kinds of plays. Bad teams make them more often than good teams. All teams can count among their losses games in which they played like that. If I didn't know better, I would get the impression that some Sox fans don't watch other teams play.

PalehosePlanet
07-02-2012, 01:43 PM
Exact dimensions of the old Yankee Stadium correct? I wonder how many of the Babe's 715 wouldn't have been in another home ballpark.

Exact dimensions but the ball carries much better at the new park. Lots of theories as to why came about the first year the stadium opened, but there is no consensus.

The 360 ft. fly ball to right center that Cano hit would have one hopped the wall at the cell. That's IF the wind was blowing out.

Both Jake and Gavin allowed the Yankees hitters to go out and hook the ball. The Yankees pitchers having experience pitching in their home park threw in, in, in to our lefthanded hitters; then away, but off the plate.

SI1020
07-02-2012, 01:45 PM
There are different ways of viewing reality. That is one reason Rashomon is far and away my favorite film and I can never see it enough times. So now I have digressed and maybe bored what audience I do have. Yes errors do happen and they are part of the game. However this was not a hard grounder that ate up an infielder. Not an errant throw rushed by the fielder because the runner is fast. Not a seeing eye pop up that landed between 3 would be fielders. It was a tailor made room service double play to be that Rapada promptly threw away in the most hideous fashion if you are rooting for the home team. Yes it is a play that a decently coached Little League pitcher will make if not 9 times out of 10 then darn close. A very bad error that cost his team the game. Yes I will call it a fluke and say it was a VERY lucky break. So glad that Tank said thank you very much and took maximum advantage of it.

As for Floyd, I have never seen a pitcher quite like him. It seems like any slight deviation from his own version of perfect mechanics and his team is in for a long day. His foot has to be carefully on the right spot on the mound, his windup and delivery just so. His release point or arm slot in modern vernacular has to be precise, especially for his trademark curve ball. Perhaps because it all has to be in such a delicate balance he doesn't seem to thrive when he is pitching from the stretch. The Sox needed Floyd to come up big and once again he didn't. This 4 game series in NY was far from a bust but it definitely was a disappointment. Yes I do agree that the Yanks made some adjustments and that is what good teams do after receiving a sound thrashing.

asindc
07-02-2012, 01:55 PM
There are different ways of viewing reality. That is one reason Rashomon is far and away my favorite film and I can never see it enough times. So now I have digressed and maybe bored what audience I do have. Yes errors do happen and they are part of the game. However this was not a hard grounder that ate up an infielder. Not an errant throw rushed by the fielder because the runner is fast. Not a seeing eye pop up that landed between 3 would be fielders. It was a tailor made room service double play to be that Rapada promptly threw away in the most hideous fashion if you are rooting for the home team. Yes it is a play that a decently coached Little League pitcher will make if not 9 times out of 10 then darn close. A very bad error that cost his team the game. Yes I will call it a fluke and say it was a VERY lucky break. So glad that Tank said thank you very much and took maximum advantage of it.

As for Floyd, I have never seen a pitcher quite like him. It seems like any slight deviation from his own version of perfect mechanics and his team is in for a long day. His foot has to be carefully on the right spot on the mound, his windup and delivery just so. His release point or arm slot in modern vernacular has to be precise, especially for his trademark curve ball. Perhaps because it all has to be in such a delicate balance he doesn't seem to thrive when he is pitching from the stretch. The Sox needed Floyd to come up big and once again he didn't. This 4 game series in NY was far from a bust but it definitely was a disappointment. Yes I do agree that the Yanks made some adjustments and that is what good teams do after receiving a sound thrashing.

As long as you see it the same way when it happens the other way around, I have no problem with that.

BigKlu59
07-02-2012, 03:18 PM
Wow... The Professors on here are still trying to debate the sun coming up and the cheap pokes to the kiddy corners that have defined Yankee baseball since they were the Highlanders.. The bottom line is, it doesnt matter if you're Cyrus Young or Bo Belinsky, if you make a mistake, a kid ends up having a fly land in his box of Cracker Jack. Just be thankful they raised the damn fence height...Time was when thigh high liners cracked off of the seat bottoms, and if an outfielder wanted to dive into the seats to snag the pea he could, and it was done with regularity..

I dont know..Just seems to me the Sox shot their load in the 14 run second game.. Came back the next day to limp lumber and missed some good pitches..They were there.. Maybe they got caught up looking for the cheap poke... Happens to all out of towners. Same in Bean town with the Monster and Pesky's pole..

Hey, our guy put himself into positions where he blinked first. Unfortunately we didnt respond in kind..

Sure it would have been great to leave the Bronx with 4 in the pocket, but 2 outta 4, agaist the Beast in the East is no small shakes.. The didnt lose the series. Time to get theri heads screwed on right again and start cleaning up at home..They have to do that if they are gonna stay in the cat bird seat..

Yes, there are flukes in baseball. Part of the game that makes it maddening at times. Hopefully over the course of history some go your way to make up for the ones that dont.. But there is such joy in Baseball Land, when God forbid, A Bronx Sandlotter, pulls a boner...

BK59

Adele_H
07-02-2012, 03:45 PM
A relief pitcher throwing a ball away on an attempted fielder's choice is not a fluke. It is something that happens sometimes. When it happens to the White Sox, no one here calls it a fluke. Teams that don't make plays lose games. It isn't a fluke that a player makes an error or doesn't make a play that fans insist their 10-year-old kids could make Check out the way the Giants won Sunday.

The Yankees didn't make a play on defense, not because the pitcher was struck by lightning, but because he made a poor play defensively, i.e., he wasn't good on that play. That was no more a fluke than Gavin Floyd giving up a game-tying home run to Chavez or Cano bouncing into a double play with the bases loaded and none out. They weren't good on those pitches. Baseball is about making the plays.

The White Sox could have won three out of four games in the series, and I'm disappointed they didn't win at least three. They could have won Sunday Hughes hadn't been quite so good. Floyd was bad, but he didn't take the Sox out of the game. Floyd wasn't as bad as the Indians pitchers were when the Yankees swept them before the Sox came to town. The Sox still brought the tying run to the plate in the ninth.

And maybe if the Yankees had started a no-name pitcher making his major league debut - i.e. White Sox kriptonite, or so I'm told -- the White Sox would have lost the second game in the series. So maybe it was a fluke they weren't swept. But they played the games, two of which were decided by two runs or less, and the White Sox and Yankees split. It wasn't a fluke. The White Sox played good baseball but couldn't do anything offensively against the Yankees starters in the day games.

Way to completely conveniently talk AROUND, like, the dozen (central) points..... and concentrate on the semantics of the word fluke. LMAO.

But since you mentioned it...yes it WAS a fluke. What you apparently have a difficulty coming to terms with is that it could be both: something fluky, lucky and still a part of the game of baseball. 95-99% of the time, in that same identical situation in the 9th, Yankees win the game. Pitcher doesn't blow a tailor-made DP with speedster like AJP running. And Viciedo doesn't catch up with a chest-high fastball in on his hands from Robertson who in last several years was very hard if not impossible to hit a HR off of in that particular location/situation by a RH batter. Fact.

And really, when it comes to a any single given game... what sport is more about dumb luck, flukes and other weirdness than baseball? It's like one of its charms.

So what, why take exception to that? All I was getting at there with the "fluke" part is that Yankees had everything go against them in the first 2 games, losing in dramatically different fashion -- a "fluke" way on Tursday and an "ass-whupping" way on Friday -- which might have frustrated a lesser team, with a lesser manager..... Instead Yankees pulled themselves together, clearly made some adjustments, perhaps took the Sox a bit more seriusly --- and outclassed the Sox in the latter 2 games. And please don't say that scores on Sat, Sun were pretty close because you damn well know Yankees were on the verge of blowing the game open several times, it was classic case of baseball's "close but not really". Hence one of my original beefs with Peavy and Floyd for putting the Sox in a hole quickly -- against Yankees, that just doesn't work (unless they start some overwhelmed rookie batting practice machine).

And yes, I most certainly would call it a "fluke" had Sox blown a lead late in that frustrating fashion.....but again, it's irrelevant in the scheme of things.

TDog no offense, but it's like you see shadows and apparitions of White Sox disrespect everywhere -- and I am sensing that as a long-time Sox fan after heartbreak of 1960s when I guess Yankees routinely robbed Sox of World Series -- you may have issues giving credit to the Yankees if you can avoid it at any cost....instead blaming it on the stadium and other peripheral things.

What's wrong with admitting that Girardi, Rothschild and Co. made effective adjustments, and had both Kuroda/Hughes implement a better more effective approach to the Sox? That Sox perhaps satisfied with already having secured a series split on Friday, were unable or unwilling to make counter-adjustments? During Greg Walker reign several teams did same thing, in fact I am surprised why it's not done more. It's not like Kuroda and Hughes are these unbeatable Cy Youngs.... Contrast it with Peavy/Floyd's approach. Give credit where due, TDog.

Maybe Sox hitters had a problem picking up the ball (early) during the day; maybe the Yankee stadium hitters' background is not ideal for visiting teams in day games -- especially if they indeed partied deep into the night on Fri and Sat..... In fact, when an excellent fastball-hitting team is swinging through 90-91 mph fastballs in the strike-zone as Sox did against Kuroda/Hughes, you can pretty much safely assume they are NOT seeing the ball well. But again, even if that's the case.... it's not the fault of the Yankee stadium per se. Maybe had Sox better prepared themselves for day-time in NY, their pitch-recognition & timing would have been as good as it was under the lights on Thu and Fri. It's also part and parcel of winning in baseball, playing day games after weekend night games on the Road.

Credit Kuroda/Hughes for knowing that, for instance, both Beckham and Viciedo have a hole in their swing if you go up & away with the heater, especiually with 2 strikes. Konerko, likewise, didn't get anything get-me-over crap in his wheelhouse middle-in in last 2 games. Alexei Ramirez was eaten up by slow-away after having his best game of the year just a day before... Had De Aza fishing and off-balance, too. Youklis on the other hand, they went in & hard when he was looking on pitches away, perhaps knowing how much difficulty he had in Boston covering both sides of the plate, with fastballs just above the belt. Etc, etc, etc.

And when Yankee pitchers did make mistakes on Sat, Sun... as mentioned above, during the day-time Sox seemed to have trouble picking up the ball early enough out o the pitcher's hand, proceeded to jam themselves. Maybe it's all coincidental, maybe not.

Btw, I saw replays of Chavez, Wise, Granderson on Sat and Cano HR. All-no doubters. And all really stupid in terms of Sox pitch selection/location, hitters tendencies and the game-situation. Give blame where due.

Sox had a chance for a historic 4-game sweep and blew it. Not end of the world, I agree. Nothing to celebrate either. Not after going up 2-0. We're not the Cubs or Kansas City Royals. I expected Sox to be in the playoffs and I still do.

(And in the playoffs, guess what? Even more flukes & assorted small-sample size-related oddities happen. It's kinda, at least in part, what October has become all about. Ask the 2005 Sox. 2006 Cards. 2007 Rockies. 2010 Giants. 2011 Cards. Don't get me wrong, they were all good teams, esp our Sox you don't go 11-1 on luck alone.... but looking back, boy did they get some major breaks or what.....Mercy! :bandance:again, it's baseball trite but true)

RKMeibalane
07-02-2012, 04:45 PM
Way to completely conveniently talk AROUND, like, the dozen (central) points..... and concentrate on the semantics of the word fluke. LMAO.

But since you mentioned it...yes it WAS a fluke. What you apparently have a difficulty coming to terms with is that it could be both: something fluky, lucky and still a part of the game of baseball. 95-99% of the time, in that same identical situation in the 9th, Yankees win the game. Pitcher doesn't blow a tailor-made DP with speedster like AJP running. And Viciedo doesn't catch up with a chest-high fastball in on his hands from Robertson who in last several years was very hard if not impossible to hit a HR off of in that particular location/situation by a RH batter. Fact.

And really, when it comes to a any single given game... what sport is more about dumb luck, flukes and other weirdness than baseball? It's like one of its charms.

So what, why take exception to that? All I was getting at there with the "fluke" part is that Yankees had everything go against them in the first 2 games, losing in dramatically different fashion -- a "fluke" way on Tursday and an "ass-whupping" way on Friday -- which might have frustrated a lesser team, with a lesser manager..... Instead Yankees pulled themselves together, clearly made some adjustments, perhaps took the Sox a bit more seriusly --- and outclassed the Sox in the latter 2 games. And please don't say that scores on Sat, Sun were pretty close because you damn well know Yankees were on the verge of blowing the game open several times, it was classic case of baseball's "close but not really". Hence one of my original beefs with Peavy and Floyd for putting the Sox in a hole quickly -- against Yankees, that just doesn't work (unless they start some overwhelmed rookie batting practice machine).

And yes, I most certainly would call it a "fluke" had Sox blown a lead late in that frustrating fashion.....but again, it's irrelevant in the scheme of things.

TDog no offense, but it's like you see shadows and apparitions of White Sox disrespect everywhere -- and I am sensing that as a long-time Sox fan after heartbreak of 1960s when I guess Yankees routinely robbed Sox of World Series -- you may have issues giving credit to the Yankees if you can avoid it at any cost....instead blaming it on the stadium and other peripheral things.

What's wrong with admitting that Girardi, Rothschild and Co. made effective adjustments, and had both Kuroda/Hughes implement a better more effective approach to the Sox? That Sox perhaps satisfied with already having secured a series split on Friday, were unable or unwilling to make counter-adjustments? During Greg Walker reign several teams did same thing, in fact I am surprised why it's not done more. It's not like Kuroda and Hughes are these unbeatable Cy Youngs.... Contrast it with Peavy/Floyd's approach. Give credit where due, TDog.

Maybe Sox hitters had a problem picking up the ball (early) during the day; maybe the Yankee stadium hitters' background is not ideal for visiting teams in day games -- especially if they indeed partied deep into the night on Fri and Sat..... In fact, when an excellent fastball-hitting team is swinging through 90-91 mph fastballs in the strike-zone as Sox did against Kuroda/Hughes, you can pretty much safely assume they are NOT seeing the ball well. But again, even if that's the case.... it's not the fault of the Yankee stadium per se. Maybe had Sox better prepared themselves for day-time in NY, their pitch-recognition & timing would have been as good as it was under the lights on Thu and Fri. It's also part and parcel of winning in baseball, playing day games after weekend night games on the Road.

Credit Kuroda/Hughes for knowing that, for instance, both Beckham and Viciedo have a hole in their swing if you go up & away with the heater, especiually with 2 strikes. Konerko, likewise, didn't get anything get-me-over crap in his wheelhouse middle-in in last 2 games. Alexei Ramirez was eaten up by slow-away after having his best game of the year just a day before... Had De Aza fishing and off-balance, too. Youklis on the other hand, they went in & hard when he was looking on pitches away, perhaps knowing how much difficulty he had in Boston covering both sides of the plate, with fastballs just above the belt. Etc, etc, etc.

And when Yankee pitchers did make mistakes on Sat, Sun... as mentioned above, during the day-time Sox seemed to have trouble picking up the ball early enough out o the pitcher's hand, proceeded to jam themselves. Maybe it's all coincidental, maybe not.

Btw, I saw replays of Chavez, Wise, Granderson on Sat and Cano HR. All-no doubters. And all really stupid in terms of Sox pitch selection/location, hitters tendencies and the game-situation. Give blame where due.

Sox had a chance for a historic 4-game sweep and blew it. Not end of the world, I agree. Nothing to celebrate either. Not after going up 2-0. We're not the Cubs or Kansas City Royals. I expected Sox to be in the playoffs and I still do.

(And in the playoffs, guess what? Even more flukes & assorted small-sample size-related oddities happen. It's kinda, at least in part, what October has become all about. Ask the 2005 Sox. 2006 Cards. 2007 Rockies. 2010 Giants. 2011 Cards. Don't get me wrong, they were all good teams, esp our Sox you don't go 11-1 on luck alone.... but looking back, boy did they get some major breaks or what.....Mercy! :bandance:again, it's baseball trite but true)

What? :?:

Frater Perdurabo
07-02-2012, 04:56 PM
What? :?:

Don't interrupt Adele and TDog while they are dissertating.

:)

Adele_H
07-02-2012, 05:20 PM
Don't interrupt Adele and TDog while they are dissertating.

:)

Pontifimacating, not dissertating.

There IS a difference.

Uh, there MUST be.

Right? Right? Kevin Costner? Anyone? Hello?

SephClone89
07-02-2012, 05:48 PM
Don't interrupt Adele and TDog while they are dissertating.

:)

Looks like TDog has finally met his match in long-windedness. I can always tell who the poster is even before looking at the name...:redneck

asindc
07-02-2012, 05:57 PM
What? :?:

:rolling:

Daver
07-02-2012, 06:11 PM
Pontifimacating, not dissertating.

There IS a difference.

Uh, there MUST be.

Right? Right? Kevin Costner? Anyone? Hello?

Postulating perhaps?

SI1020
07-02-2012, 06:42 PM
I'm actually enjoying the TDog/Adele interchange. Guess I must be nuts.

Adele_H
07-02-2012, 07:01 PM
Looks like TDog has finally met his match in long-windedness. I can always tell who the poster is even before looking at the name...:redneck

I'm sexy and you know it. :cool:

Adele_H
07-02-2012, 09:20 PM
dp

Adele_H
07-02-2012, 09:22 PM
There are different ways of viewing reality. That is one reason Rashomon is far and away my favorite film and I can never see it enough times. So now I have digressed and maybe bored what audience I do have. Yes errors do happen and they are part of the game. However this was not a hard grounder that ate up an infielder. Not an errant throw rushed by the fielder because the runner is fast. Not a seeing eye pop up that landed between 3 would be fielders. It was a tailor made room service double play to be that Rapada promptly threw away in the most hideous fashion if you are rooting for the home team. Yes it is a play that a decently coached Little League pitcher will make if not 9 times out of 10 then darn close. A very bad error that cost his team the game. Yes I will call it a fluke and say it was a VERY lucky break. So glad that Tank said thank you very much and took maximum advantage of it.

As for Floyd, I have never seen a pitcher quite like him. It seems like any slight deviation from his own version of perfect mechanics and his team is in for a long day. His foot has to be carefully on the right spot on the mound, his windup and delivery just so. His release point or arm slot in modern vernacular has to be precise, especially for his trademark curve ball. Perhaps because it all has to be in such a delicate balance he doesn't seem to thrive when he is pitching from the stretch. The Sox needed Floyd to come up big and once again he didn't. This 4 game series in NY was far from a bust but it definitely was a disappointment. Yes I do agree that the Yanks made some adjustments and that is what good teams do after receiving a sound thrashing.

It's not just the bizarre Rapada throw. Arguably an even bigger fluke/oddity was Viciedo's HR off Robertson off a pitch at his head - knowing how much Viciedo struggles with high fastballs, in particular. Wasn't a cheapie, either. You just aren't supposed to do that to a Roberson's baby-Mariano cutter that's far up over the belt. For some reason that ball didn't cut, as Robertson probably wanted.

But whatever, it was such a minor point, my intention certain't WASN'T to imply that Sox didn't deserve that win on Thursday, quite the opposite in fact: it was the biggest, certainly weirdest win of the year. It's just TDog seized on the harmless world "fluke" as if I was dissing the Sox or something. Before you knew it, it was like WSI version of Defcon 3 hahaha.

Funny you mentioned Kurosawa. When it comes to Gavin Floyd, I was thinking more along the lines of Ingmar Bergman, what was that line, "a great film is 5 great shots and NO bad shots"? Emphasis on the 'no bad shots' part -- since even one such sequence risks collapsing the grand illusion, wrecking the much needed suspension of disbelief, jarring with established aesthetics, narrative, breaking character, etc.... and then all the great shots hardly matter anymore.

Same with Gavin. Somehow his apologists like to point out how dominant he can look at times when his stuff is there, esp. out of the wind-up, with bases empty, against lesser hitters, with the ump giving him every corner strike, when it's perfect 70 degrees out.... Which is true enough. I was surprised to see that 2012 Floyd actually enjoys the HIGHEST K/9 rate of his career. In other words, he is missing bats and otherwise fooling opposing hitters. But what the apologists forget is that, making great pitches is only one half of the equation; the other one is to AVOID making bad pitches. Avoid the dreaded crooked number inning that used to plague Jon Garland, Javy Vazquez. Gavin apparently forgets that simple fact. It's always separated him from the elite pitchers, but it seems in 2012 it's gotten worse. Hence the weird meldowns that seemingly come out of the blue once runner is on base and a LH batter is coming up. He just can't avoid Hanger-ville seemingly in least opportune times.

Through that prism, you can also start to understand why Jake Peavy's Complete-Game on Saturday was NOT a good game despite what TDogs of this world will have you believe. Peavy struck out like a dozen batters in only 8 innings. Yeah, but his pitches to Granderson, Wise not once but several times and another Yankee LH were just AWFUL in terms of both design & execution. As much as I like to blame Mark Parent or Don Cooper here, Jake-meister should know better. He didn't get beat by flukey bloopers and bleeders or the ump squeezing the strike-zone or something......

Worse yet, Peavy and Floyd gave runs early, which automatically put Sox hitters at a disadvantage -- it's not just looking at the boxscore and deciding in retrospect who had a good game and who didn't. No, the game complexion & context matter. Sox hitters had to work uphill in both losses, never felt comfortable picking up the rotation of the ball during the day, pretty much off-balance.

Whereas Kuroda/Hughes weren't that much better overall than Peavy, but avoided that "one bad shot"....i.e. those handful of hangers & predictable pattern, borderline lazy, get-me-over fastballs right down the pipe to LH batters.

Adele_H
07-03-2012, 11:19 AM
As long as you see it the same way when it happens the other way around, I have no problem with that.

Oh yeah.

4 instance: Addison Reed's blown-save in Chavez Ravine was borderline fluke. Reed's first 2 pitches easily overpowered Abreu. On an 0-2 count, old-as-dirt Bobby Abreu 99 % is NOT going to get a hit off a 95 mph heater which was like shoulders-high. Except or some reason Bobby Baseball decided to play tennis -- he literally volleyed that 0-2 heater for a duck snort. I think even he was surprised it was a hit.

Then IIRC the next batter hits what is normally a routine ground-out. Uh except, Abreu is at 1st, the infield hole is bigger and the ball trickles into the outfield....with Abreu motoring all the way to 3rd base with no outs. Addison did everything right -- and he got nothing to show for it.

I still think, however, the way Yankees blew it on Thursday was more flukey than Reed's BS for reasons mentioned. I couldnt' stop laughting when Dayan guessed right and hit that letter's high heater, knew it was a goner even before he connected, lulz.


Gotta admit when I first was introduced to baseball, I thought this fundamental unpredictability/random-ness of the game was lame. As I grew up, I've come to enjoy it all the more in part BECAUSE of how much luck is involved, especially in Postseason play. Take 2005: going from being pre-season underdogs..... to almost blowing it at the end of a freakin' 99-win regular season...then catching every conceivable break in October all the way to 11-1..... Pure magic.

(Now compare that to, say, soccer. We all knew Spain would win Euro's; really no games needed to be played. Did they even give up a single goal all tournament? Or the Miami Heat. Once Bosh came back remotely healthy in the ECF, nobody had a chance in 2012 regardless of regular season. Or Roger Federer in his prime. If you faced him at, say, Wimbledon semis or Finals, might as well sit the **** down. Until 2008, that is --- and even then it took another all-time great to beat him in a crazy extra-long 5-setter. And so on.)

Chez
07-03-2012, 11:46 AM
I'm actually enjoying the TDog/Adele interchange. Guess I must be nuts.

Me too. What the hell is wrong with us? Seriously -- good analysis and well written by both.