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View Full Version : Konerko, Dunn and Sale chosen for All-Star Team


delben91
07-01-2012, 01:00 PM
Well deserved for Konerko and Sale, and suppose Dunn's power numbers put him in.

Jake Peavy in the final vote.

Link (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120701&content_id=34263976&vkey=news_cws&c_id=cws)

CoopaLoop
07-01-2012, 01:01 PM
Hope Sale starts

SephClone89
07-01-2012, 01:03 PM
Hope Sale starts

The Sox essentially All-Star proofed the rotation. I think Sale is slated to pitch on the Sunday before the break.

EDIT:

I stand corrected. Still a chance he could pitch.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-06-28/sports/ct-spt-0629-bits-white-sox-yankees-chicago--20120629_1_blue-jays-extra-rest-chris-sale

GoGoCrede
07-01-2012, 01:04 PM
Woohoo!

mzh
07-01-2012, 01:10 PM
The Sox essentially All-Star proofed the rotation. I think Sale is slated to pitch on the Sunday before the break.

I stand corrected. Still a chance he could pitch.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-06-28/sports/ct-spt-0629-bits-white-sox-yankees-chicago--20120629_1_blue-jays-extra-rest-chris-sale

I could be wrong, but I thought I heard Robin say that he would rework the rotation to give him the chance to pitch.

soxfanreggie
07-01-2012, 01:11 PM
Great news! Let's get a 4th in Sox Army!

delben91
07-01-2012, 01:23 PM
I actually like the all-star jerseys this year. Might get Konerko's since you never know if this will be his last all-star appearance.

all*star quentin
07-01-2012, 01:39 PM
I love White Sox all*stars! :D:

thomas35forever
07-01-2012, 02:19 PM
Congrats to all three!:bandance:

Frontman
07-01-2012, 02:34 PM
All three are deserving. Paulie for being, well, Paulie.

Dunn for his bounce back from last season.

Sale for his excellent month of June.

Peavy would be great to make it four White Sox reps.

BigKlu59
07-01-2012, 02:40 PM
Congrats boys... You know they are gonna request Adam in the HR Derby. I hope he doesnt screw up his swing if he does..

BK59

Adele_H
07-01-2012, 03:22 PM
Even bad wrist tanking his stats in June, Kong still deserved the spot in AS.

Sale goes without saying.

Had Peavy dominated the Twins, Yanks, he probably would have made it as well. Jake's borderline idiotic pitch selection/location to Carroll, Wise, Granderson in non-2strike counts cost him there. Noone to blame but himself.

Funny thing about Dunn making it, he hasn't even hit his stride yet. Hasn't been using LF-LCF with authority, which is why pitchers been getting him away a lot lately. That monster blast in Minnesota is what Dunn used to do routinately on pitches middleaway-away that used to get deep on him. We may see Dunn at his best in 2nd half if he is consistenly all-field with a shorter swing ala Jim Thome used to do.

Considering Dunn is near league lead in HR.... scary thought for opposing pitchers, lol.

Corlose 15
07-01-2012, 03:24 PM
Neither Napoli or Wieters deserve to be going ahead of Pierzynski. Enough of the stupid fan vote.

VenturaFan23
07-01-2012, 03:52 PM
AJ got snubbed big time. Shocking.:rolleyes:

October26
07-01-2012, 04:55 PM
AJ got snubbed big time. Shocking.:rolleyes:

He sure did. I am very disappointed to hear that AJ didn't make it. However, I am thrilled to learn that Paul Konerko, Adam Dunn, and Chris Sale are going to the All-Star Game.

central44
07-01-2012, 06:40 PM
I'm pretty sure nobody thought in 2011 that Dunn and Peavy would both be All Stars in 2012. Incredible.

...I know Peavy hasn't made it yet, but Sox fans are great at winning the final vote, and Peavy looks like the biggest snub on the list (well, other than AJ). I like his odds :smile:

TDog
07-01-2012, 07:38 PM
I'm pretty sure nobody thought in 2011 that Dunn and Peavy would both be All Stars in 2012. Incredible.

...I know Peavy hasn't made it yet, but Sox fans are great at winning the final vote, and Peavy looks like the biggest snub on the list (well, other than AJ). I like his odds :smile:

In July 2012 I find it hard to believe Dunn is an All-Star. When is the last time someone was selected as a reserve, essentially to be a pinch-hitter, despite having a .213 batting average?

If you were to select someone for your bench to be available as a pinch-hitter, would you take Dunn over Rios? And Rios isn't the only other player in the league not going to the game that I would take over Dunn.

Maybe Dunn will find himself in a good situation, though, where Tony LaRussa, who will be managing the game like it's the only game he has to win all year, won't be able to put in a southpaw reliever to face Dunn if Dunn comes up in an at bat that matters.

sullythered
07-01-2012, 07:41 PM
In July 2012 I find it hard to believe Dunn is an All-Star. When is the last time someone was selected as a reserve, essentially to be a pinch-hitter, despite having a .213 batting average?

If you were to select someone for your bench to be available as a pinch-hitter, would you take Dunn over Rios? And Rios isn't the only other player in the league not going to the game that I would take over Dunn.

Maybe Dunn will find himself in a good situation, though, where Tony LaRussa, who will be managing the game like it's the only game he has to win all year, won't be able to put in a southpaw reliever to face Dunn if Dunn comes up in an at bat that matters.

.866 OPS, broseph. Dunn deserves to be there. There ain't a team in the majors that wouldn't love to have him right now.

DSpivack
07-01-2012, 07:42 PM
In July 2012 I find it hard to believe Dunn is an All-Star. When is the last time someone was selected as a reserve, essentially to be a pinch-hitter, despite having a .213 batting average?

If you were to select someone for your bench to be available as a pinch-hitter, would you take Dunn over Rios? And Rios isn't the only other player in the league not going to the game that I would take over Dunn.

Maybe Dunn will find himself in a good situation, though, where Tony LaRussa, who will be managing the game like it's the only game he has to win all year, won't be able to put in a southpaw reliever to face Dunn if Dunn comes up in an at bat that matters.

When was the last time a guy who is top 5 in MLB in HRs and RBIs (also leading MLB in walks) was not an all star?

34rancher
07-01-2012, 07:51 PM
When was the last time a guy who is top 5 in MLB in HRs and RBIs (also leading MLB in walks) was not an all star?

Never, too much pressure to be in home run derby. Is it possible to strikeout or walk in derby?

DSpivack
07-01-2012, 07:56 PM
Never, too much pressure to be in home run derby. Is it possible to strikeout or walk in derby?

Is Dunn going to be in the HR derby?

mzh
07-01-2012, 08:23 PM
Every day I get more and more convinced that Adam Dunn ran over TDog's dog or something.

TDog
07-01-2012, 09:17 PM
When was the last time a guy who is top 5 in MLB in HRs and RBIs (also leading MLB in walks) was not an all star?

I don't know the last time, but in 1935, Hank Greenberg wasn't selected for the All-Star Game despite coming into the break hitting .317 with 25 home runs and 100 RBIs and an OPS of 1.062.

As incredibly as it seems, there are hitters in baseball right now, in both leagues, who have more than 20 home runs and actually manage to hit better than .250. Ideally, if he is leading the league in walks, Dunn should have a remarkably high batting average because he wouldn't be swinging at many bad pitches. But he has an incredibly low batting average because he is on pace to strike out about 250 times. It isn't a question of whether he should be on the team instead of Trevor Plouffe, whose .867 OPS is almost as good as Dunn's .879. You don't have to look at other teams. Rios is more deserving.

But Rios doesn't have 20 home runs. It isn't hard to find someone with almost as many home runs as Dunn who has been a better hitter than Dunn has been this season. Edwin Encarnacion has 22 home runs, two fewer than Dunn in three fewer games. And an OPS of .936. He is hitting about 80 points higher than Dunn, and despte walking less than half as much as Dunn does, he has a better on-base percentage because he is a more dangerous hitter when pitchers attack him in the strike zone. He is only three RBIs behind Dunn.

If the American League is serious about winning, Adam Dunn wouldn't be named to the team. Complain about the fan voting being a joke. It doesn't compare to Dunn's selection.

MISoxfan
07-01-2012, 09:33 PM
Its true that Encarnacion was snubbed big time.

Adele_H
07-01-2012, 09:38 PM
I don't know the last time, but in 1935, Hank Greenberg wasn't selected for the All-Star Game despite coming into the break hitting .317 with 25 home runs and 100 RBIs and an OPS of 1.062.

As incredibly as it seems, there are hitters in baseball right now, in both leagues, who have more than 20 home runs and actually manage to hit better than .250. Ideally, if he is leading the league in walks, Dunn should have a remarkably high batting average because he wouldn't be swinging at many bad pitches. But he has an incredibly low batting average because he is on pace to strike out about 250 times. It isn't a question of whether he should be on the team instead of Trevor Plouffe, whose .867 OPS is almost as good as Dunn's .879. You don't have to look at other teams. Rios is more deserving.

But Rios doesn't have 20 home runs. It isn't hard to find someone with almost as many home runs as Dunn who has been a better hitter than Dunn has been this season. Edwin Encarnacion has 22 home runs, two fewer than Dunn in three fewer games. And an OPS of .936. He is hitting about 80 points higher than Dunn, and despte walking less than half as much as Dunn does, he has a better on-base percentage because he is a more dangerous hitter when pitchers attack him in the strike zone. He is only three RBIs behind Dunn.

If the American League is serious about winning, Adam Dunn wouldn't be named to the team. Complain about the fan voting being a joke. It doesn't compare to Dunn's selection.

Look. Both of us know that Dunn made the AS team at least IN PART because of his name recognition and likeability/Comeback Player of the Year storyline.

Yes, 24 HR 55 RBI in only 70 games at the time of voting probably helped, but like it or not....fair or not...... this thing is called the All-STAR game for a reason. Popularity matters. Novelty, compelling narrative also play a role. It's not named All-StatisticallySuperiorMidPointoftheSeason Game, afterall ;)

(Incidentally, this is one of the reason AJ did NOT make the All-star team--- baseball people and fans do not like him. When AJ was hitting 310 earlier this month, it would have been harder to leave him out, but at .280 he's borderline. Something similar happened to Alex Rios in 2010. Just fell short. In those days, Rios had rep as a sulky, indifferent if not lazy player, IIRC)


Another thing helped Dunn is that Post-(widespead) Steroid Era, 900 OPS has once again become something of a premium. Granted Dunn has been slumping, played through a week long bout with flu which tanked his numbers, but I think whoever voted for him see Dunn as elite slugger returneth.

This is why I liked the signing originally -- Dunn is one of the few players that didn't set red-flags....

Anyway. Were you so indignant in, say, 2008 when Joe Crede made the AS team? His back was so bad, he was probably THE worst defensive 3B in AL that year --- and it's not like he had a great offensive year, either.

doublem23
07-01-2012, 10:01 PM
Yay! An argument about batting average!

TDog
07-01-2012, 10:16 PM
Yay! An argument about batting average!

You could make it about OBP or OPS if you prefer. Dunn still loses out to Encarnacion, as if you need stats to tell you that Encarnacion is a much tougher out.

If Dunn played for any other team and was selected for the All-Star team, WSI would be outraged, especially with Rios left off the team. Dunn isn't even the White Sox comeback player of the year so far.

palehozenychicty
07-01-2012, 11:12 PM
I don't know the last time, but in 1935, Hank Greenberg wasn't selected for the All-Star Game despite coming into the break hitting .317 with 25 home runs and 100 RBIs and an OPS of 1.062.

As incredibly as it seems, there are hitters in baseball right now, in both leagues, who have more than 20 home runs and actually manage to hit better than .250. Ideally, if he is leading the league in walks, Dunn should have a remarkably high batting average because he wouldn't be swinging at many bad pitches. But he has an incredibly low batting average because he is on pace to strike out about 250 times. It isn't a question of whether he should be on the team instead of Trevor Plouffe, whose .867 OPS is almost as good as Dunn's .879. You don't have to look at other teams. Rios is more deserving.

But Rios doesn't have 20 home runs. It isn't hard to find someone with almost as many home runs as Dunn who has been a better hitter than Dunn has been this season. Edwin Encarnacion has 22 home runs, two fewer than Dunn in three fewer games. And an OPS of .936. He is hitting about 80 points higher than Dunn, and despte walking less than half as much as Dunn does, he has a better on-base percentage because he is a more dangerous hitter when pitchers attack him in the strike zone. He is only three RBIs behind Dunn.

If the American League is serious about winning, Adam Dunn wouldn't be named to the team. Complain about the fan voting being a joke. It doesn't compare to Dunn's selection.

C'mon, dude. How can you hate on your own team's player getting selected? Fair or not, that is ignorant. He's not being paid to hit .300. He walks, hits taters, and drives in runs.

Without him, the Sox are not in first place. I can't understand after his pathetic season how you would not respect an All-Star selection.

TDog
07-01-2012, 11:37 PM
C'mon, dude. How can you hate on your own team's player getting selected? Fair or not, that is ignorant. He's not being paid to hit .300. He walks, hits taters, and drives in runs.

Without him, the Sox are not in first place. I can't understand after his pathetic season how you would not respect an All-Star selection.

He isn't paid to strike out 200 times either, but he is likely to be up to 130 by the All-Star break. If Dunn is doing what he is paid to do, he is grossly overpaid.

I am upset that Alex Rios was snubbed. Rios this year has far more to do with the White Sox being in first place than Dunn.

delben91
07-01-2012, 11:41 PM
He isn't paid to strike out 200 times either, but he is likely to be up to 130 by the All-Star break. If Dunn is doing what he is paid to do, he is grossly overpaid.

I am upset that Alex Rios was snubbed. Rios this year has far more to do with the White Sox being in first place than Dunn.

So you'd rather root for Dunn, and by association the White Sox to do worse?

TDog
07-02-2012, 12:37 AM
So you'd rather root for Dunn, and by association the White Sox to do worse?

I don't know what this means. I root for Dunn not to strike out, to shorten his swing with two strikes, to take outside pitches to left. I want to see him be a good hitter. I want to see him reach base and root for him every time he comes up to the plate. I am constantly disappointed.

I am disappointed that a better hitter who has done more to put the White Sox in first place his all-around play is being snubbed for the All-Star team in favor of Dunn. And I am pretty sure from posts I have read lately that if neither Dunn nor Rios were selected, it would be the Rios snub that would be generating more outrage at WSI. And fans in other American League cities are likely to have reason to complain that hitters on their team were snubbed in favor of Dunn. Maybe there is something I am missing, like Dunn has to be on the roster to compete in the Home Run Derby.

Still, I don't see how anyone who claims to be disgusted with inequities of fan voting can be happy with the selection of Dunn when there are more worthy players.

Nellie_Fox
07-02-2012, 12:39 AM
So you'd rather root for Dunn, and by association the White Sox to do worse?Where did he say that? That's a huge stretch of what he said. He just said that he is not a worthy all-star selection.

balke
07-02-2012, 07:06 AM
I am pretty sure from posts I have read lately that if neither Dunn nor Rios were selected, it would be the Rios snub that would be generating more outrage at WSI.

Dunn is 4th in the AL in RBI, 3rd in homeruns, and 1st in walks.

Rios has had a solid season - but he isn't at the top of AL outfielders at anything.

Southsider101
07-02-2012, 07:47 AM
Congrats to all the Sox All Stars. This has to be very satisfying to Adam Dunn after last season's debacle. I just wish A.J. could join them since he's having such as great year.

pythons007
07-02-2012, 08:00 AM
Peavy is going to have an impossible road to get voted into the All-Star game. Yu Darvish and the millions of Japanese will be voting him in, while Peavy will have the couple hundred thousand from Chicago.

Corlose 15
07-02-2012, 08:02 AM
I don't know what this means. I root for Dunn not to strike out, to shorten his swing with two strikes, to take outside pitches to left. I want to see him be a good hitter. I want to see him reach base and root for him every time he comes up to the plate. I am constantly disappointed.

I am disappointed that a better hitter who has done more to put the White Sox in first place his all-around play is being snubbed for the All-Star team in favor of Dunn. And I am pretty sure from posts I have read lately that if neither Dunn nor Rios were selected, it would be the Rios snub that would be generating more outrage at WSI. And fans in other American League cities are likely to have reason to complain that hitters on their team were snubbed in favor of Dunn. Maybe there is something I am missing, like Dunn has to be on the roster to compete in the Home Run Derby.

Still, I don't see how anyone who claims to be disgusted with inequities of fan voting can be happy with the selection of Dunn when there are more worthy players.

Wouldn't you consider Pierzynski a bigger snub than Rios? I'd argue he's done just as much if not more than Rios to help the Sox this year.

34rancher
07-02-2012, 08:35 AM
Dunn is 4th in the AL in RBI, 3rd in homeruns, and 1st in walks.

Rios has had a solid season - but he isn't at the top of AL outfielders at anything.

Wouldn't you consider Pierzynski a bigger snub than Rios? I'd argue he's done just as much if not more than Rios to help the Sox this year.

Rios has been our top WAR, RAR, and RAA guy. Offensively, I'd also say he's been more consistent and balanced offensively. He's been very consistent with his entire offensive contributions. Defensively, he has been lights out in the RF.

As for AJ, he has been great. Our Number 2 slugging behind Paulie. I also think he has done a great job with the young pitching staff.

I also like to look at how the guy in front of you is doing also. It means that teams can't pitch around them to get to you. From that perspective, the "protection" that Paulie has been given has been very solid due to Rios, and the same for AJ providing that for Rios. Interesting to look at the "other" stats. Then take into account payroll. It's obvious who the Sox have at a bargain.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2012-batting.shtml

asindc
07-02-2012, 08:48 AM
Dunn is 4th in the AL in RBI, 3rd in homeruns, and 1st in walks.

Rios has had a solid season - but he isn't at the top of AL outfielders at anything.

Rios has been the better player this year. Period. TDog said that Rios has done more to help the Sox win this year than Dunn, which is true. That is not to say that Dunn hasn't had an exceptional year that deserves recognition... he certainly has. But I agree with TDog that Rios is more deserving of AS recognition than Dunn. Since the entire process is a farce, however, I hope neither player is putting too much stock into it.

TomBradley72
07-02-2012, 08:50 AM
AJ should have made it as the 3rd catcher instead of Mauer.

Another Twin position player should have been their representative replacing Dunn on the roster.

RockJock07
07-02-2012, 09:36 AM
Yeah Mauer doesn't make sense. The rep from every team has to stop not because the game "means" something but because one team may have 4 or 5 good players that deserve a selection.

TaylorStSox
07-02-2012, 09:49 AM
IMO, Rios is probably our MVP. It's the All Star game though. Rios isn't a popular player, even among his own fanbase. He doesn't interview. He has a reputation. AJ's similar, though actually hated by his peers as opposed to unpopular. The All Star game is like the Gold Glove, they've been a joke for years.

GoGoCrede
07-02-2012, 09:52 AM
Yeah Mauer doesn't make sense. The rep from every team has to stop not because the game "means" something but because one team may have 4 or 5 good players that deserve a selection.

I actually like that rule. I don't want to see the same few players from East Coast teams every year. I'd like to see the best of each team.

sullythered
07-02-2012, 10:38 AM
I actually like that rule. I don't want to see the same few players from East Coast teams every year. I'd like to see the best of each team.

They should let the players, managers, and GMs decide who goes. It probably wouldn't help AJ :tongue: but it would be a fair representation of who deserves to go.

Johnny Mostil
07-02-2012, 11:41 AM
He isn't paid to strike out 200 times either, but he is likely to be up to 130 by the All-Star break. If Dunn is doing what he is paid to do, he is grossly overpaid.

I am upset that Alex Rios was snubbed. Rios this year has far more to do with the White Sox being in first place than Dunn.

130 Ks for Dunn by the All-Star break? Only if the Sox are lucky. He has 126 Ks through 79 games, and the Sox have six more games until the break.

For what it's worth, I don't think Dunn should be an All-Star, either, especially since Konerko and Sale already provide worthy representation. I'm relieved to see I'm not the only Sox fan who thinks so.

But wasn't Dunn selected by the players' vote? If so, then I'm not sure I see much of an issue here.

GoGoCrede
07-02-2012, 11:44 AM
They should let the players, managers, and GMs decide who goes. It probably wouldn't help AJ :tongue: but it would be a fair representation of who deserves to go.

But if it wouldn't help good-but-unpopular players, it still wouldn't be too fair, no? Meh. I'm just glad that all teams are represented. You get to see some lesser known players who deserve a bit more attention.

ElevenUp
07-02-2012, 12:09 PM
AJ should have made it as the 3rd catcher instead of Mauer.

Another Twin position player should have been their representative replacing Dunn on the roster.


Phil Rogers article in the Tribune today says the same thing. I linked the article, but in order to read it, you need to be a registered member of the Tribune.


No A.J., no justice! No A.J., no justice! No A.J., no justice! (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/No A.J., no justice! No A.J., no justice! No A.J., no justice!)

TomBradley72
07-02-2012, 12:21 PM
Willingham- .268-17-55 is more deserving than Dunn- I guess Washington paid no attention to actual June results.

AJ is more deserving than Mauer (great batting average- but not much after that)

asindc
07-02-2012, 12:28 PM
130 Ks for Dunn by the All-Star break? Only if the Sox are lucky. He has 126 Ks through 79 games, and the Sox have six more games until the break.

For what it's worth, I don't think Dunn should be an All-Star, either, especially since Konerko and Sale already provide worthy representation. I'm relieved to see I'm not the only Sox fan who thinks so.

But wasn't Dunn selected by the players' vote? If so, then I'm not sure I see much of an issue here.

Dunn is a reserve selection.

FielderJones
07-02-2012, 12:37 PM
Phil Rogers article in the Tribune today says the same thing. I linked the article, but in order to read it, you need to be a registered member of the Tribune.

You can sign in with a Gmail, Yahoo, Facebook, Twitter, and other social media accounts.

Johnny Mostil
07-02-2012, 12:51 PM
Dunn is a reserve selection.

This (http://www.southsidesox.com/2012/7/2/3131218/three-all-stars-two-snubs-five-great-signs-for-white-sox) made me think Dunn was a reserve selection because of a players' vote (" . . . the players voted Dunn . . . ").

Regardless, if Konerko and Sale (and Rios and Pierzynski) weren't available, I suppose I could see Dunn as a reasonable Sox representative. But otherwise? Meh . . .

kobo
07-02-2012, 01:18 PM
I don't know what this means. I root for Dunn not to strike out, to shorten his swing with two strikes, to take outside pitches to left. I want to see him be a good hitter. I want to see him reach base and root for him every time he comes up to the plate. I am constantly disappointed.

I am disappointed that a better hitter who has done more to put the White Sox in first place his all-around play is being snubbed for the All-Star team in favor of Dunn. And I am pretty sure from posts I have read lately that if neither Dunn nor Rios were selected, it would be the Rios snub that would be generating more outrage at WSI. And fans in other American League cities are likely to have reason to complain that hitters on their team were snubbed in favor of Dunn. Maybe there is something I am missing, like Dunn has to be on the roster to compete in the Home Run Derby.

Still, I don't see how anyone who claims to be disgusted with inequities of fan voting can be happy with the selection of Dunn when there are more worthy players.
You want to see something that he has never been.

doublem23
07-02-2012, 01:45 PM
You could make it about OBP or OPS if you prefer. Dunn still loses out to Encarnacion, as if you need stats to tell you that Encarnacion is a much tougher out.

If Dunn played for any other team and was selected for the All-Star team, WSI would be outraged, especially with Rios left off the team. Dunn isn't even the White Sox comeback player of the year so far.

:whiner: Adam Dunn's an All-Star. :whiner:

doublem23
07-02-2012, 01:46 PM
You want to see something that he has never been.

TDog is one of a few posters with a ridiculous personal vendetta against Dunn and now they're just pissed the baseball community just flipped them the bird.

balke
07-02-2012, 02:09 PM
Rios has been the better player this year. Period. TDog said that Rios has done more to help the Sox win this year than Dunn, which is true. That is not to say that Dunn hasn't had an exceptional year that deserves recognition... he certainly has. But I agree with TDog that Rios is more deserving of AS recognition than Dunn. Since the entire process is a farce, however, I hope neither player is putting too much stock into it.


Rios overall has been better - but of course he plays defense.

Rios has not been better than: Trout, Hamilton, Austin Jackson, Mark Trumbo, Adam Jones, or Granderson, at the VERY least in terms of players eligible for OF positions.

Dunn was selected as a 1Bman - so you are comparing him to others as that position. A power position - where he has more BB, and homeruns than any other 1Bman in major league baseball - while 2nd in RBI.

I probably would've leaned towards Encarnacion - but it's not a travesty by any means. As a fan watching a farce - I'd rather see Dunn in the HR Derby with one at-bat in the all-star game.

If anyone is implying Rios has been more productive at the plate - you are lying to yourself. Rios bats with Dunn and Konerko in front of him. He has stranded more runners - and has had more opportunity to score runners on base than Dunn with fewer RBI.

I'm a fan of batting average - but not so much that I'm going to ignore the significance of 14 extra homeruns and 16 more RBI.


Dunn with runners on - 46 RBI in 117 AB
Rios with runners on - 36 RBI in 135 AB

TaylorStSox
07-02-2012, 02:35 PM
Rios overall has been better - but of course he plays defense.

Rios has not been better than: Trout, Hamilton, Austin Jackson, Mark Trumbo, Adam Jones, or Granderson, at the VERY least in terms of players eligible for OF positions.

Dunn was selected as a 1Bman - so you are comparing him to others as that position. A power position - where he has more BB, and homeruns than any other 1Bman in major league baseball - while 2nd in RBI.

I probably would've leaned towards Encarnacion - but it's not a travesty by any means. As a fan watching a farce - I'd rather see Dunn in the HR Derby with one at-bat in the all-star game.

If anyone is implying Rios has been more productive at the plate - you are lying to yourself. Rios bats with Dunn and Konerko in front of him. He has stranded more runners - and has had more opportunity to score runners on base than Dunn with fewer RBI.

I'm a fan of batting average - but not so much that I'm going to ignore the significance of 14 extra homeruns and 16 more RBI.


Dunn with runners on - 46 RBI in 117 AB
Rios with runners on - 36 RBI in 135 AB

Out if curiosity, what's each hitter's slash line with runners on and RISP?

kittle42
07-02-2012, 03:05 PM
Out if curiosity, what's each hitter's slash line with runners on and RISP?

Rios:
RISP -.360/.398/.533
Men On -.370/.408/.585

Dunn:
RISP - .239/.378/.537
Men On - .256/.399/.615

Frater Perdurabo
07-02-2012, 03:08 PM
They should let the players, managers, and GMs decide who goes. It probably wouldn't help AJ :tongue: but it would be a fair representation of who deserves to go.

I think each team's fan base should get to vote for their team's All-Star. (If that means ten first baseman get voted on the team, so be it.) Then, position players vote for their position All Star (who would start the game), starting pitchers vote for five starters, and relief pitchers vote for five relievers. Starting in 2013 this gives us 33 players (15 team reps voted by fans, 8 position reps voted by players, 10 pitcher reps voted by pitchers). Then the managers pick three more players each to give us 36 players per team.

To prevent entire nations or large fan bases from stacking the deck, MLB can mandate only email addresses used to order tickets to a team's home game are eligible to cast votes for that team's All Star rep. If a player wins the team fan base vote and the player vote, then we go to the second place winner in the player vote (#6 winner for pitchers, etc.).

This way, each team's fan base is happy and we get the best possible starting lineups.

34rancher
07-02-2012, 03:20 PM
Out if curiosity, what's each hitter's slash line with runners on and RISP?

How about a little more advanced numbers to add to the slash line above:

Total base runners at plate/Base runners scored/%:
Rios: 213/33/15%
Dunn:193/34/18% (surprisingly Ramirez leads team in scored and %)

Base runners on 3 with less than 2 outs/scored/%
Rios: 9/7/78% (highest % on team)
Dunn: 19/11/58%

Base runners on 2nd with no outs/runner advanced/%
Rios: 9/7/78% (surprisingly Beckham leads the team in advances and %)
Dunn: 14/6/43%

PalehosePlanet
07-02-2012, 03:48 PM
Rios overall has been better - but of course he plays defense.

Rios has not been better than: Trout, Hamilton, Austin Jackson, Mark Trumbo, Adam Jones, or Granderson, at the VERY least in terms of players eligible for OF positions.

Dunn was selected as a 1Bman - so you are comparing him to others as that position. A power position - where he has more BB, and homeruns than any other 1Bman in major league baseball - while 2nd in RBI.

I probably would've leaned towards Encarnacion - but it's not a travesty by any means. As a fan watching a farce - I'd rather see Dunn in the HR Derby with one at-bat in the all-star game.

If anyone is implying Rios has been more productive at the plate - you are lying to yourself. Rios bats with Dunn and Konerko in front of him. He has stranded more runners - and has had more opportunity to score runners on base than Dunn with fewer RBI.

I'm a fan of batting average - but not so much that I'm going to ignore the significance of 14 extra homeruns and 16 more RBI.


Dunn with runners on - 46 RBI in 117 AB
Rios with runners on - 36 RBI in 135 AB

Not saying you're wrong, but keep in mind that Rios has lost at least 10 RBI this year because Konerko and Dunn cannot run at all and are getting the stop sign at 3rd base on Alex's hits.

Meantime De Aza or Beckham will score from second on a single every time for Dunn.

kobo
07-02-2012, 04:05 PM
TDog is one of a few posters with a ridiculous personal vendetta against Dunn and now they're just pissed the baseball community just flipped them the bird.
Oh, I know. We've gone back and forth a few times over Dunn.

Adele_H
07-02-2012, 05:12 PM
Rios overall has been better - but of course he plays defense.

Rios has not been better than: Trout, Hamilton, Austin Jackson, Mark Trumbo, Adam Jones, or Granderson, at the VERY least in terms of players eligible for OF positions.

Dunn was selected as a 1Bman - so you are comparing him to others as that position. A power position - where he has more BB, and homeruns than any other 1Bman in major league baseball - while 2nd in RBI.

I probably would've leaned towards Encarnacion - but it's not a travesty by any means. As a fan watching a farce - I'd rather see Dunn in the HR Derby with one at-bat in the all-star game.

<snip>



Looks like it. Rios ran up against deep OF field. What really hurt him is that Alex went something like 2 freakin' months without hitting a HR. That OPS would look helluva lot nicer had he hit a modest 5 or 6 dingers between, like, Game 2 and Game 50. Would have been harder to overlook. Rios should be used to it, though as in 2010 he fell short of AS selection, too.

Dunn clearly benefitted from Texeira, Pujols, Adrian Gonzalez, et al NOT putting up the usual monster numbers.

And other guys like Plouffe, Encarnacion who did have really good years, arguably do not have the aformentioned NAME-RECOGNITION & sentimental Comeback player of the Year storyline appeal of Dunn's. It is a popularity contest, afteral..

Which is why Mauer made it over AJ. I don't know his statline, frankly I don't care to look it up. I know Mauer must have much higher OBP, which is always more valuable than Slugging % -- maximum OBP is 1.000 while maximum Slugging % is 4.000, so they need to be weighted accordingly. Especially once you adjust for Cell-Target Field HR differential, AJ's advantage rapidly diminishes. Mauer is faster on the pads; has always better much better defensively than AJ. I am sure voters remember that. And at the end of the day..... even in a down year Mauer remains a star, the face of Midwest baseball, chicks dig blablabla. Wheras AJ is...AJ.

If Derek Jeter can make it batting 260 or something one year, Mauer is practically legacy shoe-in. Can't go against star-factor. Doesn't mean it's right. It is what it is.

mzh
07-02-2012, 05:23 PM
Which is why Mauer made it over AJ. I don't know his statline, frankly I don't care to look it up. I know Mauer must have much higher OBP, which is always more valuable than Slugging % -- maximum OBP is 1.000 while maximum Slugging % is 4.000, so they need to be weighted accordingly. Especially once you adjust for Cell-Target Field HR differential, AJ's advantage rapidly diminishes. Mauer is faster on the pads; has always better much better defensively than AJ. I am sure voters remember that. And at the end of the day..... even in a down year Mauer remains a star, the face of Midwest baseball, chicks dig blablabla. Wheras AJ is...AJ.

If Derek Jeter can make it batting 260 or something one year, Mauer is practically legacy shoe-in. Can't go against star-factor. Doesn't mean it's right. It is what it is.
1. I have no clue whatsoever what you're trying to say about maximum OBP or Slugging

2. Whatever this Cell-Target Field HR differential you speak of is, its irrelevant. AJ is having a career year power wise, and Mauer just doesn't hit for that much power to begin with. Mauer's strength was never power, and while AJ's value came with providing a bit more pop while hitting ~.280.

3. It's hard to be THAT much better of a defensive catcher when you catch less than half of your teams games. I'll take AJ's 65 games of above average D over 35 games of Mauer's, which is probably not all that much better to begin with.

AJ came in 3rd in fan voting. It wasn't really that close. The reason he wasn't selected has a lot less to do with Joe Mauer's star power, IMO it just comes down to the fact that he simply isn't very well liked around the league.

balke
07-02-2012, 07:41 PM
Not saying you're wrong, but keep in mind that Rios has lost at least 10 RBI this year because Konerko and Dunn cannot run at all and are getting the stop sign at 3rd base on Alex's hits.

Meantime De Aza or Beckham will score from second on a single every time for Dunn.

De Aza and Beckham score because he's knocking the ball out of the park so much. Dunn is also 2nd in runs scored - he and PK being on base for Rios is working in that respect.

DSpivack
07-02-2012, 07:59 PM
1. I have no clue whatsoever what you're trying to say about maximum OBP or Slugging

2. Whatever this Cell-Target Field HR differential you speak of is, its irrelevant. AJ is having a career year power wise, and Mauer just doesn't hit for that much power to begin with. Mauer's strength was never power, and while AJ's value came with providing a bit more pop while hitting ~.280.

3. It's hard to be THAT much better of a defensive catcher when you catch less than half of your teams games. I'll take AJ's 65 games of above average D over 35 games of Mauer's, which is probably not all that much better to begin with.

AJ came in 3rd in fan voting. It wasn't really that close. The reason he wasn't selected has a lot less to do with Joe Mauer's star power, IMO it just comes down to the fact that he simply isn't very well liked around the league.

What makes all of that moot, IMHO, is that both Mauer and AJ deserve to be in the ASG as the top 2 AL hitters at the position this season. Napoli and Wieters do not. Thus, I don't view it as AJ deserving it over Mauer, as Joe Wall has a higher batting average, but AJ over Napoli and/or Wieters.

JB98
07-02-2012, 08:12 PM
I don't have a problem with Mauer being chosen. Somebody from the Twins has to go. Why not him? He's batting .320 or whatever. Nothing you can do about the dumbass fans voting Napoli into the game. Just a shame Wieters got picked over A.J. I think A.J. is more deserving, although the guy who really deserves to be left out is the guy who got voted to start (Napoli).

Frater Perdurabo
07-02-2012, 08:20 PM
I don't have a problem with Mauer being chosen. Somebody from the Twins has to go. Why not him? He's batting .320 or whatever. Nothing you can do about the dumbass fans voting Napoli into the game. Just a shame Wieters got picked over A.J. I think A.J. is more deserving, although the guy who really deserves to be left out is the guy who got voted to start (Napoli).

The Rangers have gained a lot of bandwagon fans (most of whom are football-first fans) that fancy themselves as part of some kind of Yankees-like dynasty. They have made themselves as obnoxious as Yankees fans and Red Sox fans with their ballot box stuffing. This is why Napoli got voted onto the team.

CoopaLoop
07-02-2012, 09:49 PM
Adam Dunn should strikeout less is always an amusing argument.

Adele_H
07-02-2012, 09:59 PM
1. I have no clue whatsoever what you're trying to say about maximum OBP or Slugging

2. Whatever this Cell-Target Field HR differential you speak of is, its irrelevant. AJ is having a career year power wise, and Mauer just doesn't hit for that much power to begin with. Mauer's strength was never power, and while AJ's value came with providing a bit more pop while hitting ~.280.

3. It's hard to be THAT much better of a defensive catcher when you catch less than half of your teams games. I'll take AJ's 65 games of above average D over 35 games of Mauer's, which is probably not all that much better to begin with.

AJ came in 3rd in fan voting. It wasn't really that close. The reason he wasn't selected has a lot less to do with Joe Mauer's star power, IMO it just comes down to the fact that he simply isn't very well liked around the league.

1. It merely means that , OPS is a flawed stat because it undervalues OBP in favour of Slug % by simply dumb adding them together. It needs to be weighted appropriately in favour of OBP, though there is always an arguement what the coefficient or multiplier should be.

2. It's no secret that last 3 years Mauer's OPS is greatly hurt by Target Field. Once you park-adjust, his Slug % looks more respectable. AJ still has an advantage in what is a career year for him, but it's the only advantage he has over Mauer and it's not even that dramatic.

3. If you think for ONE second that AJ's defense is "above-average" -- then we will never agree on anything. Surprisingly, he has been throwing runners out a bit more this year, but he's gotten even worse in other aspects of defense. I haven't seen him all year, but last few weeks, AJ has been even worse than I remember. Just downright lazy at times. Defensive stats don't do an adequate job quantifying defensive prowess in general, and for the catcher position it is arguably least useful of all, in that respect. So whatever.

The last point you're saying the same thing, it's basically 6 of one, half-dozen of the other. Popularity IS part of star-factor, and vice versa.

TDog
07-03-2012, 10:03 AM
TDog is one of a few posters with a ridiculous personal vendetta against Dunn and now they're just pissed the baseball community just flipped them the bird.

It is more likely the league just wants Dunn to participate in the silly home run derby and passed over players more deserving players, even potentially more dangerous pinch-hitters,. If the object of selecting AL reserves is choosing players who will help the AL win, you certainly don't have two White Sox players being selected as first basemen. As poorly as Albert Puljos started this season, even he would be a more dangerous hitter than Dunn. And there would be a reason for Puljos to take his glove to Kansas City.

asindc
07-03-2012, 10:17 AM
It is more likely the league just wants Dunn to participate in the silly home run derby and passed over players more deserving players, even potentially more dangerous pinch-hitters,. If the object of selecting AL reserves is choosing players who will help the AL win, you certainly don't have two White Sox players being selected as first basemen. As poorly as Albert Puljos started this season, even he would be a more dangerous hitter than Dunn. And there would be a reason for Puljos to take his glove to Kansas City.

1) Dunn was not selected (or chose not to participate) for the HR derby.

2) The primary objective of the AS game is recognize and reward of the achievements of the individual players. Tying the outcome of the game to WS home-field advantage may be contradictory to that primary objective, but so it is.

I generally agree with you about Dunn's "Hulk Smash!" approach to hitting, that Rios has been a better player and more deserving AS selection, and that Dunn's K tendencies hurt the team more than many here seem to grasp. But Dunn's AS selection is not a travesty of justice in this case, and certainly not because Pujols was not chosen instead.

Soxman219
07-03-2012, 02:59 PM
Cardinal fans and our fans are teaming up to vote in Peavy and Freese into the All-star game. I'll do my part.

Southsider101
07-03-2012, 03:01 PM
1. I have no clue whatsoever what you're trying to say about maximum OBP or Slugging

2. Whatever this Cell-Target Field HR differential you speak of is, its irrelevant. AJ is having a career year power wise, and Mauer just doesn't hit for that much power to begin with. Mauer's strength was never power, and while AJ's value came with providing a bit more pop while hitting ~.280.

3. It's hard to be THAT much better of a defensive catcher when you catch less than half of your teams games. I'll take AJ's 65 games of above average D over 35 games of Mauer's, which is probably not all that much better to begin with.

AJ came in 3rd in fan voting. It wasn't really that close. The reason he wasn't selected has a lot less to do with Joe Mauer's star power, IMO it just comes down to the fact that he simply isn't very well liked around the league.

I think that one of the reasons Mauer was chosen is that he can also play 1st base and has played right field in the past. My feeling is that he was chosen because he gives the AL a bit more flexibility in the late innings.

WLL1855
07-03-2012, 10:34 PM
I think that one of the reasons Mauer was chosen is that he can also play 1st base and has played right field in the past. My feeling is that he was chosen because he gives the AL a bit more flexibility in the late innings.

This is hogwash. I'll buy any number of reasons Mauer should make the team but versatility isn't one of them.