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soxyess
06-26-2012, 05:11 PM
What about going after Greinke? Brewers cant sign him long term, and are probably going to move him. It would most likely be a rental player on our part, but could you imagine the rotation we would have?

DumpJerry
06-26-2012, 05:26 PM
This was discussed in the game thread for the game when we faced him last week.

He won't work well in a big city setting. His anxiety condition kicks in with crowds (this is why you won't see the Yanks signing him).

Wait, did I say big crowds get to him? Get on the phone, Kenny.

Marqhead
06-26-2012, 06:15 PM
This was discussed in the game thread for the game when we faced him last week.

He won't work well in a big city setting. His anxiety condition kicks in with crowds (this is why you won't see the Yanks signing him).

Wait, did I say big crowds get to him? Get on the phone, Kenny.

The Brewers draw 3 million a year. Chicago would have smaller crowds...

Noneck
06-26-2012, 07:06 PM
The Brewers draw 3 million a year. Chicago would have smaller crowds...

Exactly, the brewers have outdrawn the Sox every year since 2007.

Red Barchetta
06-26-2012, 08:13 PM
This was discussed in the game thread for the game when we faced him last week.

He won't work well in a big city setting. His anxiety condition kicks in with crowds (this is why you won't see the Yanks signing him).

Wait, did I say big crowds get to him? Get on the phone, Kenny.

So what's the plan when he pitches for a team that makes the post-season?

mzh
06-26-2012, 08:24 PM
So what's the plan when he pitches for a team that makes the post-season?
Considering that he gave up 11 runs in 11.2 innings (3 starts) last postseason, that is a legitimate question.

samurai_sox
06-26-2012, 09:14 PM
Exactly, the brewers have outdrawn the Sox every year since 2007.

:whiner:

JB98
06-26-2012, 09:21 PM
Heh, heh. Pierzynski and Greinke hate each other. That would be an interesting battery to say the least.

doublem23
06-26-2012, 09:58 PM
The Brewers draw 3 million a year. Chicago would have smaller crowds...

Exactly, the brewers have outdrawn the Sox every year since 2007.

http://mlb.mlb.com/cws/photo/exe_mugs/boyer.jpg
You *******s question our ticket pricing strategy BUT NOW YOU SEE THE LIGHT. We've merely been preparing to acquire Zack since 1997.

DumpJerry
06-26-2012, 11:14 PM
Exactly, the brewers have outdrawn the Sox every year since 2007.

But...but.....the White Sox radio and television ratings are up sharply this year. He could feel the presence....

Heh, heh. Pierzynski and Greinke hate each other. That would be an interesting battery to say the least.
It's a poorly kept secret that AJ and Peavy are not to be seated next to each other at a dinner party. They don't have to love each other to be able to work together.

Why do AJ and Greinke have a bad relationship? They never played together, so how would things be sour between them?

WhiffleBall
06-27-2012, 08:19 AM
I would not be surprised at all if Greinke ends up on the Tigers. You know the Youkilis trade is going to motivate 82 year (83 in July) old Mike Ilitch to open up his wallet again and trade some young talent.

getonbckthr
06-27-2012, 01:58 PM
Why do AJ and Greinke have a bad relationship? They never played together, so how would things be sour between them?

I think it has something to do with being on the opposite ends of High School rivals.

Domeshot17
06-27-2012, 02:01 PM
Its kind of moot because we don't have the talent to trade for him.

DSpivack
06-27-2012, 02:39 PM
The Rangers are scouting his start today.

hawkjt
06-27-2012, 03:32 PM
Yanks lose CC and Pettitte today....I know he has his anxiety syndrome,but the Yanks might gamble on him now.

Sargeant79
06-27-2012, 04:53 PM
This was discussed in the game thread for the game when we faced him last week.

He won't work well in a big city setting. His anxiety condition kicks in with crowds (this is why you won't see the Yanks signing him).

Wait, did I say big crowds get to him? Get on the phone, Kenny.

I don't think it's about the crowds as much as it is about the level of scrutiny. While the Brewers may outdraw the Sox, this is one of the toughest media markets in the nation along the lines of New York, Boston, and Philadelphia.

Plus, there's no way we have the talend in the minors to get this trade done without parting with someone from the big league team.

kittle42
06-27-2012, 07:09 PM
Its kind of moot because we don't have the talent to trade for him.

Bingo. Brewers will get quite the haul for him, and many teams with much more to offer need him badly, too.

cards press box
06-27-2012, 07:13 PM
I have no source for this but I suspect that the Brewers are not going to deal him at all but rather sign him to an extension. Milwaukee really seems to be a logical landing spot for Greinke.

A. Cavatica
06-27-2012, 07:38 PM
Heh, heh. Pierzynski and Greinke hate each other. That would be an interesting battery to say the least.

Pierzynski and * hate each other.

CoopaLoop
06-28-2012, 12:21 AM
Free agent or not, Sox don't have the assets to get a Greinke.

ComiskeyBrewer
06-28-2012, 02:27 AM
So what's the plan when he pitches for a team that makes the post-season?

:scratch:

He did that last year......

DumpJerry
06-28-2012, 07:01 AM
Free agent or not, Sox don't have the assets to get a Greinke.
:scratch:
Are you talking about financial assets? The White Sox have one of the highest net worth in MLB and are one of the most profitable teams in MLB. If they don't have the assets to sign him, who does?

doublem23
06-28-2012, 08:49 AM
:scratch:
Are you talking about financial assets? The White Sox have one of the highest net worth in MLB and are one of the most profitable teams in MLB. If they don't have the assets to sign him, who does?

I'm sure they're talking about tradeable assets for Greinke, especially if teams like the Rangers get into the bidding, as they still have one of the better percieved farm systems in baseball. That being said, it's not really a big deal, with Sale and Peavy 1-2 the Sox don't need a frontline starter, they moreso need quality depth in their starting rotation. Hopefully getting back a healthy and effective Danks will help out a lot, but there are other SP who will probably be available that are more in the Sox's price range.

Now, all that said, there were plenty of "experts" who figured the Sox had no chance to land Freddy Garcia in 2004, when he was the most lucrative pitcher available and supposedly the #1 target for the Yankees at the time. With KW, I've learned never to say never.

Foulke You
06-28-2012, 05:19 PM
I'm sure they're talking about tradeable assets for Greinke, especially if teams like the Rangers get into the bidding, as they still have one of the better percieved farm systems in baseball. That being said, it's not really a big deal, with Sale and Peavy 1-2 the Sox don't need a frontline starter, they moreso need quality depth in their starting rotation. Hopefully getting back a healthy and effective Danks will help out a lot, but there are other SP who will probably be available that are more in the Sox's price range.

Now, all that said, there were plenty of "experts" who figured the Sox had no chance to land Freddy Garcia in 2004, when he was the most lucrative pitcher available and supposedly the #1 target for the Yankees at the time. With KW, I've learned never to say never.
I tend to agree. If Danks doesn't come back, we need a back of the rotation veteran guy to eat some innings. No need to mortgage the farm for Greinke. I don't think Axelrod is a long term solution. Humber could be that #5 guy again if he comes back strong from his injury. If not, Kenny might have to make a deal.

kittle42
06-28-2012, 05:36 PM
No need to mortgage the farm for Greinke.

Do banks allow fourth mortgages?

CoopaLoop
06-28-2012, 07:44 PM
:scratch:
Are you talking about financial assets? The White Sox have one of the highest net worth in MLB and are one of the most profitable teams in MLB. If they don't have the assets to sign him, who does?

No, I am talking about the Sox having the worst farm system on planet Earth.

doublem23
06-28-2012, 09:14 PM
No, I am talking about the Sox having the worst farm system on planet Earth.

I keep hearing people say that but then Viciedo, De Aza, Reed, Quintana, JorDanks, Jones, ****, even Axelrod tonight have all looked like MLB players this year.

Maybe everybody is wrong.

DumpJerry
06-28-2012, 09:38 PM
No, I am talking about the Sox having the worst farm system on planet Earth.
Well, you said the "assets" would probably make it difficult for the Sox to get Greinke as a free agent. What does the purported quality of the farm system have to do with that?

DSpivack
06-28-2012, 09:45 PM
I keep hearing people say that but then Viciedo, De Aza, Reed, Quintana, JorDanks, Jones, ****, even Axelrod tonight have all looked like MLB players this year.

Maybe everybody is wrong.

De Aza and Quintana were not products of the Sox farm system.

DeadMoney
06-29-2012, 01:48 PM
De Aza and Quintana were not products of the Sox farm system.

Farm system or not, they were a bi-product of our Scouting and Development. Even though we didn't draft them, that still - to me - indicates they were a result of our "System". To me, our "System" encompasses far more than just who we draft.

#1swisher
06-29-2012, 06:14 PM
The Rangers are scouting his start today.

Yankees scouted Greinke in Cincinnati.

http://itsaboutthemoney.net/archives/2012/06/28/yankees-scouted-zack-greinke/

doublem23
06-29-2012, 11:15 PM
De Aza and Quintana were not products of the Sox farm system.

Maybe not homegrown products but have both been regular players in the minors for the Sox at some point in the past 12 months when people have shredded the Sox farm system to be absolutely devoid of talent.

Do people hold it against the Twins that Johan Santana didn't start his pro career with them, even though they developed him into a Cy Young Award winner?

WhiteSox5187
06-29-2012, 11:22 PM
Maybe not homegrown products but have both been regular players in the minors for the Sox at some point in the past 12 months when people have shredded the Sox farm system to be absolutely devoid of talent.

Do people hold it against the Twins that Johan Santana didn't start his pro career with them, even though they developed him into a Cy Young Award winner?

I don't think anyone really holds it against the Twins but I think that the praise for Santana's development goes to the Twins' pitching coach rather than the Twins farm system, much the same way Cooper gets a lot of praise for fixing guys who are rule 5 picks or waiver claims.

Tragg
06-30-2012, 10:51 AM
Farm system or not, they were a bi-product of our Scouting and Development. Even though we didn't draft them, that still - to me - indicates they were a result of our "System". To me, our "System" encompasses far more than just who we draft.

Agree - and we're second to none working that waiver wire, which, for us, has been extremely bountiful.

CoopaLoop
06-30-2012, 01:32 PM
Well, you said the "assets" would probably make it difficult for the Sox to get Greinke as a free agent. What does the purported quality of the farm system have to do with that?

Do you like to be difficult for sport or something? This thread is about trading for Greinke.

CoopaLoop
06-30-2012, 01:34 PM
I keep hearing people say that but then Viciedo, De Aza, Reed, Quintana, JorDanks, Jones, ****, even Axelrod tonight have all looked like MLB players this year.

Maybe everybody is wrong.

The problem with the system is once Viciedo, Sale and Reed got here, the cabinet was left empty. There is nothing left of value.

forrestg
07-01-2012, 11:47 AM
we could sell say Peavey for prospects at the trade deadline and trade those prospects to Milwaukee for Greinke.

doublem23
07-01-2012, 12:20 PM
The problem with the system is once Viciedo, Sale and Reed got here, the cabinet was left empty. There is nothing left of value.

Yeah I've heard that B.S. for a few years, and judging how the Sox are playing, there's plenty of value. I think a lot of teams would be hard-pressed to match the contributions the Sox have gotten from players promoted out of their minor league system over the last few years. I guess its just easier for people to keep repeating the same mantra over and over again instead of admitting they're wrong.

ZombieRob
07-02-2012, 08:14 AM
Yeah I've heard that B.S. for a few years, and judging how the Sox are playing, there's plenty of value. I think a lot of teams would be hard-pressed to match the contributions the Sox have gotten from players promoted out of their minor league system over the last few years. I guess its just easier for people to keep repeating the same mantra over and over again instead of admitting they're wrong.
I agree. Wouldn't you only deal if Grienke signs an extention? If he agrees to that the Brewers can pick names for all I care.

Based on this year, we as fans have to give credit to the scouts and Buddy Bell for the job they have done with these pitchers. I have never seen anything like it in 30 + years.

asindc
07-02-2012, 08:53 AM
The problem with the system is once Viciedo, Sale and Reed got here, the cabinet was left empty. There is nothing left of value.

Yeah I've heard that B.S. for a few years, and judging how the Sox are playing, there's plenty of value. I think a lot of teams would be hard-pressed to match the contributions the Sox have gotten from players promoted out of their minor league system over the last few years. I guess its just easier for people to keep repeating the same mantra over and over again instead of admitting they're wrong.

I agree with this. It was said after Humber came up that there was no one left in the minors who could contribute. It was said after Viciedo came up that there was no one left in the minors who could contribute. It was said after De Aza came up that there was no one left in the minors who could contribute. It was said after Sale came up that there was no one left in the minors who could contribute. It was said after Reed came up that there was no one left in the minors who could contribute. It was said after Alexrod came up that there was no one left in the minors who could contribute. It was said after Jordan Danks came up that there was no one left in the minors who could contribute. Now it is being said after Quintana came up that there is no one left in the minors who can contribute. It is sounding like a broken record at this point.

Golden Sox
07-02-2012, 10:15 AM
Nobody likes to talk about this but Greinke suffers from depression. I can't imagine any team giving him a long term big money contract. It was common knowledge all over baseball that the Royals moved him a few years ago because they got tired of his mood swings.

jdm2662
07-02-2012, 10:44 AM
Nobody likes to talk about this but Greinke suffers from depression. I can't imagine any team giving him a long term big money contract. It was common knowledge all over baseball that the Royals moved him a few years ago because they got tired of his mood swings.

It was also common knowledge he requested to be traded.

doublem23
07-02-2012, 01:49 PM
It was also common knowledge he requested to be traded.

The Brewers also gave up a pretty good haul for Greinke and we all know KC is always 2-3 years away from turning it around. :rolling:

sullythered
07-03-2012, 02:22 AM
Nobody likes to talk about this but Greinke suffers from depression. I can't imagine any team giving him a long term big money contract. It was common knowledge all over baseball that the Royals moved him a few years ago because they got tired of his mood swings.

I thought it was social anxiety disorder.

Tragg
07-03-2012, 10:21 PM
Brewers paid a lot for Grienke. But a lot has changed..he's older and, most importantly, you don't get a pick when you lose him in free agency. Price should be substantially lower.

thehawkeroo
07-16-2012, 11:28 AM
Brewers paid a lot for Grienke. But a lot has changed..he's older and, most importantly, you don't get a pick when you lose him in free agency. Price should be substantially lower.


Good point.

Quentin08
07-16-2012, 11:54 AM
I thought it was social anxiety disorder.

It was social anxiety disorder. When it gets out of hand and becomes overwhelming, it can lead to depression. The media in Chicago is a lot more demanding than Milwaukee or KC, so it could be quite a challenge for Greinke to be comfortable here.

SoxSpeed22
07-16-2012, 12:57 PM
From what I understand, the reason the Brewers got him instead of the Yankees was that the Yankees were worried about how he would handle the New York media and pitching for the Yankees. I don't think Grienke would fit in with the Sox, but who knows.

kufram
07-16-2012, 01:31 PM
Nah.... couldn't be. Could it.

DonnieDarko
07-16-2012, 01:34 PM
Nah.... couldn't be. Could it.

The heck are you talking about?

aryzner
07-16-2012, 01:37 PM
Do you know something we don't?

rdivaldi
07-16-2012, 01:38 PM
Dude, what's the score?

doublem23
07-16-2012, 01:40 PM
He's been scratched from his start Wednesday from Milwaukee, but so far, no word that he's been moved yet.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/162598396.html#!page=3&pageSize=10&sort=newestfirst

Foulke You
07-16-2012, 01:52 PM
He's been scratched from his start Wednesday from Milwaukee, but so far, no word that he's been moved yet.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/162598396.html#!page=3&pageSize=10&sort=newestfirst (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/162598396.html#%21page=3&pageSize=10&sort=newestfirst)
MLBTR is saying that they are giving him a chance to "recharge his batteries" after giving up a ton of earned runs in his last 14 innings of work. It doesn't sound like he is handling the trade rumor mill very well. As talented as he can be, I'm not sure I'd want him based on how mentally fragile he seems. I feel sorry for him and the disorder he suffers from has to be terrible. However, purely from a White Sox baseball standpoint, I'd rather the Sox go after a different pitcher unless KW can somehow pull another "Youk" type trade where he gives up very little to get him.

Soxman219
07-16-2012, 02:31 PM
CBS Jon Heyman reports the White Sox are interested Greinke and are the favorites!:o:

DonnieDarko
07-16-2012, 02:38 PM
CBS Jon Heyman reports the White Sox are interested Greinke and are the favorites!:o:

lolwut

Twitter?

aryzner
07-16-2012, 02:39 PM
lolwut

Twitter?

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jon-heyman/19596062/white-sox-are-latest-to-enter-greinke-derby

He says favorite in the AL Central (as in to win the division). Not necessarily favorite to land Greinke.

FoulTerritory
07-16-2012, 02:41 PM
CBS Jon Heyman reports the White Sox are interested Greinke and are the favorites!:o:

Bernstein and Rosenbloom just intimated the same thing, with more to come on it after the commercial break.

Danielgosox38
07-16-2012, 02:44 PM
Bernstein and Rosenbloom just intimated the same thing, with more to come on it after the commercial break.

Who the hell do we have available to give up to acquire him?

Danielgosox38
07-16-2012, 02:45 PM
Unless he signs an extension, I am against this deal. We would have to give up too much.

delben91
07-16-2012, 02:46 PM
Who the hell do we have available to give up to acquire him?

I dunno, but who did we have that we could give up to get Youkilis? Still happened.

I've learned never to assume anything when it comes to KW and the trade market.

Hitmen77
07-16-2012, 02:50 PM
MLBTR is saying that they are giving him a chance to "recharge his batteries" after giving up a ton of earned runs in his last 14 innings of work. It doesn't sound like he is handling the trade rumor mill very well. As talented as he can be, I'm not sure I'd want him based on how mentally fragile he seems. I feel sorry for him and the disorder he suffers from has to be terrible. However, purely from a White Sox baseball standpoint, I'd rather the Sox go after a different pitcher unless KW can somehow pull another "Youk" type trade where he gives up very little to get him.

He was the first pitcher in 95 years to make 3 consecutive starts. The last pitcher to do it was Red Faber of the 1917 White Sox.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brewers/greinke-set-to-make-third-straight-start-for-crew-fv6210m-161743995.html

The circumstances for Greinke were a total fluke. He got ejected after four pitches last Saturday, started the next day (right before the break) and then started again on Friday (first game after the break).

kufram
07-16-2012, 03:02 PM
The heck are you talking about?

Just that the planets are aligned for big move in the starting pitching department. I haven't read anything or heard anything (how would I?) other than that Greinke's been pulled from tonight's start.. I got a sudden feeling that Kenny just might pull something big like that right at this moment.

WhiteSox5187
07-16-2012, 03:04 PM
I dunno, but who did we have that we could give up to get Youkilis? Still happened.

I've learned never to assume anything when it comes to KW and the trade market.

That was a totally different situation though, Valentine made it so that there was no way he and Youkilis could co-exist on the same team and the Red Sox had a young replacement ready for Youkilis so they were in a position (or at least they thought they were) in a position where they could give Youkilis away for a bag of balls and they did. They needed to get him off the team somehow and the White Sox were likely the only team that was really interested. The Brewers are going to expect a lot more for Greinke and there will be more teams that are interested.

kittle42
07-16-2012, 03:23 PM
Unless he signs an extension, I am against this deal. We would have to give up too much.

And what would that be?

Frater Perdurabo
07-16-2012, 03:25 PM
It would be fitting for the Sox to get a lot out of a trade with the Brewers. Valentin and Eldred were important cogs in the 2000 division title. Podsednik and Vizcaino also played important roles in 2005.

The Sox have the best pitching coach, trainer and groundskeeper in the majors. I mean this sincerely, with no offense intended: Do they also have a great team psychiatrist? If so, Greinke could be a great pickup.

Tragg
07-16-2012, 03:28 PM
I dunno, but who did we have that we could give up to get Youkilis? Still happened.

I've learned never to assume anything when it comes to KW and the trade market.
We got Youkilis for nothing. Zero, zip. That was a gift.
This won't be.
But,the market price should be adjusted downward from prior July trades because he doesn't come with a draft pick.

Foulke You
07-17-2012, 10:51 AM
He was the first pitcher in 95 years to make 3 consecutive starts. The last pitcher to do it was Red Faber of the 1917 White Sox.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brewers/greinke-set-to-make-third-straight-start-for-crew-fv6210m-161743995.html

The circumstances for Greinke were a total fluke. He got ejected after four pitches last Saturday, started the next day (right before the break) and then started again on Friday (first game after the break).
I'm not 100% against getting him. There is no doubt he is capable of being a dominant pitcher and I like the idea of adding a "difference maker" rather than just a warm body to eat innings. He is also one of the better pitchers available in trade. However, I have concerns on what the Brewers would demand in trade and I have concerns that Greinke can mentally hold up in September or October with 40,000 towel waving fans and hordes of Chicago media in the locker room after the game.

balke
07-17-2012, 07:28 PM
I just wanna say I'm 100% for this if true. This team has a chance and this is the kind of move that could put them over the top.

I just mentioned what the Sox might have to give up - but maybe nowhere near that. I more wonder what Greinke is worth that the Sox would be willing or able to part with.

CoopaLoop
07-18-2012, 11:56 PM
I heard B&B the other day talking about the Brewers offered Greinke 5 years at a 100 million? Are the Brewers ****ing crazy?

kittle42
07-19-2012, 08:15 AM
I heard B&B the other day talking about the Brewers offered Greinke 5 years at a 100 million? Are the Brewers ****ing crazy?

Pretty much the norm for borderline-top-totation guys now.

doublem23
07-19-2012, 08:19 AM
Pretty much the norm for borderline-top-totation guys now.

Yeah, that seems like a pretty fair deal. Greinke's been pretty good for Milwaukee, ERA of 3.72, WHIP around 1.2, strikes out about 10 guys per 9 innings.

And, at the very least, they can tell their fans they tried to sign him long term if they have to deal him in the next 2 weeks.

TheVulture
07-19-2012, 07:45 PM
Pretty much the norm for borderline-top-totation guys now.

He's only averaging about 5 1/2 innings per start this year. I can't consider a guy who won't put up 180 innings in 30 starts borderline top of the rotation at this point.

CoopaLoop
07-24-2012, 12:22 AM
Pretty much the norm for borderline-top-totation guys now.

Yeah, that seems like a pretty fair deal. Greinke's been pretty good for Milwaukee, ERA of 3.72, WHIP around 1.2, strikes out about 10 guys per 9 innings.

And, at the very least, they can tell their fans they tried to sign him long term if they have to deal him in the next 2 weeks.

This isn't your average top of the rotation guy. This is a dude that Boston and New York won't try to acquire because of mental issues.

Not sure I am comfortable handing 100 million to Greinke.

ComiskeyBrewer
07-24-2012, 01:20 AM
This isn't your average top of the rotation guy. This is a dude that Boston and New York won't try to acquire because of mental issues.

Not sure I am comfortable handing 100 million to Greinke.

Doesn't matter because he turned it down. He'll be traded within the next few days, i think.

kittle42
07-24-2012, 09:32 AM
Not sure I am comfortable handing 100 million to Greinke.

And now he'll get more than that.

BigHurt3515
07-24-2012, 04:25 PM
So apparently we are trying to trade Floyd for prospects then trying to flip those for Greinke. Interesting

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/07/rosenthal-morosi-on-white-sox-tigers-willingham.html

VMSNS
07-24-2012, 04:40 PM
I'm fine with trading Floyd...but why the hell is Kenny so hung-up on acquiring Greinke? The guy has issues and no big market team has been willing to touch him so far, so what makes Kenny think he'll succeed in a place like Chicago?

SephClone89
07-24-2012, 04:42 PM
I think what we can all agree on is that we could use more people playing psychologist in this thread.

Domeshot17
07-24-2012, 04:48 PM
I'm fine with trading Floyd...but why the hell is Kenny so hung-up on acquiring Greinke? The guy has issues and no big market team has been willing to touch him so far, so what makes Kenny think he'll succeed in a place like Chicago?

Because he would be the most talented pitcher on this staff, and Sale-Greinke-Peavy could win a world series. ESPECIALLY if that is Sale-Greinke-Peavy-Danks-Quintero.

eriqjaffe
07-24-2012, 04:48 PM
what makes Kenny think he'll succeed in a place like Chicago?Its' proximity to Milwaukee?

kittle42
07-24-2012, 04:49 PM
I'm fine with trading Floyd...but why the hell is Kenny so hung-up on acquiring Greinke? The guy has issues and no big market team has been willing to touch him so far, so what makes Kenny think he'll succeed in a place like Chicago?

Where is the pressure in this city, especially if you're playing for the Sox?

SephClone89
07-24-2012, 04:51 PM
Where is the pressure in this city, especially if you're playing for the Sox?

Pretty much.

VMSNS
07-24-2012, 04:55 PM
Because he would be the most talented pitcher on this staff, and Sale-Greinke-Peavy could win a world series. ESPECIALLY if that is Sale-Greinke-Peavy-Danks-Quintero.

Of course he's talented...but the market has shown little or no confidence that he can perform in a big market like Chicago. This isn't me playing amateur psychologist, it's what the market has him pegged as.

He could very well come here and be an ace. But if I were Kenny, I wouldn't be willing to spend whatever is left in our depleted farm system to take that chance. Not to mention the fact that Floyd's value is probably very low right now, and a trade involving him probably wouldn't net the prospects needed to get him.

WisSoxFan
07-24-2012, 04:56 PM
If Kenny can pull this off and get Greinke signed count me in! Hell, count me in if he can't get him signed. That's a really good group of starters when Danks gets back.

SephClone89
07-24-2012, 04:57 PM
Of course he's talented...but the market has shown little or no confidence that he can perform in a big market like Chicago. This isn't me playing amateur psychologist, it's what the market has him pegged as.

The Rangers are apparently serious about Greinke, too.

Domeshot17
07-24-2012, 05:01 PM
The Rangers are apparently serious about Greinke, too.

So are the Angels, but yah, the market is bad for him :rolleyes:.

VMSNS
07-24-2012, 05:01 PM
The Rangers are apparently serious about Greinke, too.

The difference being that Texas has one of the best farm systems in baseball. The Sox have one of the worst. It isn't as much of a risk for Texas to trade for Greinke as it would be for us.

SephClone89
07-24-2012, 05:19 PM
The difference being that Texas has one of the best farm systems in baseball. The Sox have one of the worst. It isn't as much of a risk for Texas to trade for Greinke as it would be for us.

Goalposts: moved

CoopaLoop
07-24-2012, 06:38 PM
So are the Angels, but yah, the market is bad for him :rolleyes:.

I don't know if anybody said that, but New York and Boston aren't in on him, that's for sure.

SephClone89
07-24-2012, 06:39 PM
I don't know if anybody said that, but New York and Boston aren't in on him, that's for sure.

Twitter reports about Boston scouts at his start tonight would indicate otherwise.

VMSNS
07-24-2012, 08:04 PM
Goalposts: moved

Don't know what you're getting at here, but I'm not sure suggesting Greinke isn't a good fit in Chicago is such a radical notion.

The guy has a history of anxiety issues. In the past, big market teams have stayed away from him because of that very issue. Again, this isn't armchair psychology. It's a fact. It's also not surprising that there's interest in him now because (a) it's the trade deadline, (b) he's a very good pitcher, (c) pitching is always a commodity, and (d) teams are desperate to make moves so they have a shot at the playoffs. I'm sure any team looking to improve their starting rotation has scouts watching Greinke tonight simply to do their due diligence, and that includes big market teams.

CoopaLoop
07-24-2012, 08:37 PM
Twitter reports about Boston scouts at his start tonight would indicate otherwise.

This changes everything!!!

SephClone89
07-24-2012, 08:43 PM
This changes everything!!!

When you made such an affirmative statement as "That's for sure," it kind of does.

Lip Man 1
07-24-2012, 10:55 PM
Kenny doesn't deny Sox are after Grienke or Dempster to Chuck Garfien:

http://www.csnchicago.com/blog/sox-drawer/post/Sox-Drawer-Williams-doesnt-deny-Greinke-?blockID=745701&feedID=9399

Says team continues to be aggresive, making phone calls trying to land an "impact" player.

Lip

RCWHITESOX
07-25-2012, 01:20 AM
The difference being that Texas has one of the best farm systems in baseball. The Sox have one of the worst. It isn't as much of a risk for Texas to trade for Greinke as it would be for us.

I know all the so called experts have the Sox at the bottom of the farm systems; but the Sox keep bringing up rookies who continue to perform at the Major League level. The Sox must be doing something right.

kittle42
07-25-2012, 09:54 AM
I know all the so called experts have the Sox at the bottom of the farm systems; but the Sox keep bringing up rookies who continue to perform at the Major League level. The Sox must be doing something right.

Minor league evaluations can be top-heavy, meaning that organizations are somewhat judged on the potential superstar players they have in the minors. It has been decided that the Sox really have none.

doublem23
07-25-2012, 10:06 AM
Minor league evaluations can be top-heavy, meaning that organizations are somewhat judged on the potential superstar players they have in the minors. It has been decided that the Sox really have none.

And yet the Sox plucked the 8th best pitcher in the American League this season directly out of their farm system.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/2012-pitching-leaders.shtml

It's really time to start taking a lot of these prospect lists and "expert" opinions with a grain of salt. Guys like Keith Law work for BA, BP, or ESPN because no team wants them.

kittle42
07-25-2012, 10:12 AM
And yet the Sox plucked the 8th best pitcher in the American League this season directly out of their farm system.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/2012-pitching-leaders.shtml

It's really time to start taking a lot of these prospect lists and "expert" opinions with a grain of salt. Guys like Keith Law work for BA, BP, or ESPN because no team wants them.

I wouldn't be so quick to rush to that conclusion. We'll see what the future holds for Quintana. He's been awesome, but can be be a Jamie Moyer or Mark Buehrle? I don't know yet.

DSpivack
07-25-2012, 11:50 AM
And yet the Sox plucked the 8th best pitcher in the American League this season directly out of their farm system.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/2012-pitching-leaders.shtml

It's really time to start taking a lot of these prospect lists and "expert" opinions with a grain of salt. Guys like Keith Law work for BA, BP, or ESPN because no team wants them.

I wouldn't be so quick to rush to that conclusion. We'll see what the future holds for Quintana. He's been awesome, but can be be a Jamie Moyer or Mark Buehrle? I don't know yet.

Plus, Quintana wasn't a product of the White Sox farm system. He was picked up of waivers from the Yankees. He spent what, a month or so in the Sox farm system? I would credit that to KW and major league scouts identifying a player available off waivers, not the team's minor league scouting and player development.

The other rookies who have had some success are Addison Reed, Nate Jones, & Hector Santiago. Reed was a noted, top-100 prospect in baseball. The other two were far from it; credit goes to minor league scouting & player development in that regard, though of course as rookies, we don't know how their careers will turn out.

doublem23
07-25-2012, 11:54 AM
Plus, Quintana wasn't a product of the White Sox farm system. He was picked up of waivers from the Yankees. He spent what, a month or so in the Sox farm system? I would credit that to KW and major league scouts identifying a player available off waivers, not the team's minor league scouting and player development.

Since when is scouting not part of minor league development?

DSpivack
07-25-2012, 11:58 AM
Since when is scouting not part of minor league development?

My point is that Quintana is not a product of the White Sox minor league system.

The Immigrant
07-25-2012, 12:22 PM
My point is that Quintana is not a product of the White Sox minor league system.

I think I know what you're trying to say, but keep in mind that Quintana spent more time in the White Sox minor league system than Chris Sale did. Keith Law would argue that our minor league system doesn't get to claim credit for either one of them, but then again Keith Law can go **** himself. Both players came from our minor league teams and are now excelling at the big league level, and that's all that should matter.

WhiteSox5187
07-25-2012, 12:34 PM
Since when is scouting not part of minor league development?

It can be but there are also major league scouts who identify talent for trades and free agent signings at the major and minor league level as well. There is a difference between identifying a guy who can help a team and putting him in the minors temporarily as opposed to identifying and nurturing raw talent at the college and high school level. The White Sox have been very good at identifying professional talent and acquiring it and have been horrendous and nurturing any sort of raw talent from amateurs into something that can be successful at the major league level. It's hard to do any sort of development with a guy who pitched 48 innings in your system.

DSpivack
07-25-2012, 12:39 PM
I think I know what you're trying to say, but keep in mind that Quintana spent more time in the White Sox minor league system than Chris Sale did. Keith Law would argue that our minor league system doesn't get to claim credit for either one of them, but then again Keith Law can go **** himself. Both players came from our minor league teams and are now excelling at the big league level, and that's all that should matter.

I think the White Sox deserve credit for their success, but I don't think their success is due to the Sox minor league system, just the major league team. It's been quite a few years now since the Sox minor league system has produced an above-average starter either in the field or in the rotation; Beckham is the only one that comes to mind, and he isn't great (Viciedo comes to mind if you want to count him, but he isn't anything great, either). I hope that Quintana and Sale are.

Marqhead
07-25-2012, 01:19 PM
Rosenthal reports the Sox want him "badly"

Not really news, but cool to see the team's name attached to Greinke in anyway at this point.

http://rotoworld.com/headlines/mlb/371159/report-white-sox-want-zack-greinke-badly

Frater Perdurabo
07-25-2012, 02:10 PM
OK, what kind of package would the Sox need to send to Milwaukee to get Greinke?

WhiteSoxOnly
07-25-2012, 07:05 PM
OK, what kind of package would the Sox need to send to Milwaukee to get Greinke?

Pedro Hernandez, Dallas McPherson, and Brian Bruney...hey, just let me dream about it ok ?

Frater Perdurabo
07-25-2012, 07:29 PM
Pedro Hernandez, Dallas McPherson, and Brian Bruney...hey, just let me dream about it ok ?

Maybe the rights to Lance Broadway and Kris Honel?

DSpivack
07-25-2012, 07:36 PM
Maybe the rights to Lance Broadway and Kris Honel?

Joe Borchard was in the booth with Farmer and DJ the other night, add him, too.

RowanDye
07-25-2012, 10:15 PM
OK, what kind of package would the Sox need to send to Milwaukee to get Greinke?

The Brewers traded Matt LaPorta, Rob Bryson, Zach Jackson, and Michael Brantley to Cleveland for CC. Fatbath.

I think they're looking for some real pitching return, like Quintana.

Domeshot17
07-26-2012, 09:39 AM
We probably need to trade Gavin for an additional prospect or 2, but If Gavin netted 2 specs, with Mitchell and Nestor Molina plus Phil Humber, we might get in the ballpark.

Harry Chappas
07-26-2012, 09:42 AM
Take it with a grain of salt, but the Score reported that any deal with the Brewers would likely require, in addition to prospects, Gavin Floyd. Personally, I'd rather part with Floyd than Quintana. The sample size is small and Quintana may not have electric stuff, but he has that "it" factor. He has composure and control not unlike Buerhle which is remarkable for someone with such limited experience.

kittle42
07-26-2012, 09:42 AM
I think they're looking for some real pitching return, like Quintana.

It's far too early to determine whether Qunitana is "real pitching return." I wouldn't exactly be jumping to acquire Michael Fiers, for instance.

russ99
07-26-2012, 10:45 AM
Take it with a grain of salt, but the Score reported that any deal with the Brewers would likely require, in addition to prospects, Gavin Floyd. Personally, I'd rather part with Floyd than Quintana. The sample size is small and Quintana may not have electric stuff, but he has that "it" factor. He has composure and control not unlike Buerhle which is remarkable for someone with such limited experience.

That was likely parroting the rumored Floyd to Toronto for prospects and those flipped to Milwaukee.

I have to wonder if the Sox would go as far as sending Beckham in a deal. Probably not for Greinke since he's a FA at the end of the year.

Harry Chappas
07-26-2012, 11:29 AM
That was likely parroting the rumored Floyd to Toronto for prospects and those flipped to Milwaukee.

I have to wonder if the Sox would go as far as sending Beckham in a deal. Probably not for Greinke since he's a FA at the end of the year.

As disappointing as Beckham has been at the plate, I wouldn't mess with the chemistry of the infield. Also, it seems like GB is a pretty popular guy in the club house. Trading him and getting an enigmatic guy like Greinke might not be the best for the Sox even in the short term.

bunkaroo
07-26-2012, 11:45 AM
Take it with a grain of salt, but the Score reported that any deal with the Brewers would likely require, in addition to prospects, Gavin Floyd. Personally, I'd rather part with Floyd than Quintana. The sample size is small and Quintana may not have electric stuff, but he has that "it" factor. He has composure and control not unlike Buerhle which is remarkable for someone with such limited experience.

I agree. At this point I think we've see the best Floyd has since 2007. Better to get what we can for him if it helps this year. Way too soon to let Quintana go lest he become another name in the list...Gio...Hudson....etc.

bunkaroo
07-26-2012, 11:46 AM
As disappointing as Beckham has been at the plate, I wouldn't mess with the chemistry of the infield. Also, it seems like GB is a pretty popular guy in the club house. Trading him and getting an enigmatic guy like Greinke might not be the best for the Sox even in the short term.

Agreed here. I think the Sox can afford to carry one outstanding infielder who doesn't light it up at the plate - kind of the way it was with Uribe. Especially with guys like Viciedo hitting to pick up the slack.

rdivaldi
07-26-2012, 12:12 PM
Way too soon to let Quintana go lest he become another name in the list...Gio...Hudson....etc.

etc? Who are the "etc"?

Tragg
07-26-2012, 12:41 PM
Why would we let Quintana go? He's easily our 3rd best pitcher.

And Bekcham and Viciedo (the ONLY young hitter we have) I've heard - for yet another try in the endless sojourn for an "ACE", and this one a headcase rent? (hello "elite" AJ Burnett )

TheOldRoman
07-26-2012, 12:42 PM
rdivaldi-

I remember you having the picture of your baby in a Sox outfit in your signature for the longest time. THAT is him now? Wow. That makes me feel freaking old.

bunkaroo
07-26-2012, 12:43 PM
etc? Who are the "etc"?

Names are escaping me and certainly no one as impactful as the other two, but it just seems like we've given up a lot of pitching prospects over the years for the "now". Maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

At the time I didn't like the Peavy deal due to the money owed, and I thought Richard could be a solid #4 or #5 starter. I know he hasn't looked great in SD but he looked better back then IIRC.

I guess I just don't want to see them move Quintana for the "now".

TheOldRoman
07-26-2012, 12:43 PM
Why would we let Quintana go? He's easily our 3rd best pitcher.

And Bekcham and Viciedo (the ONLY young hitter we have) I've heard - for yet another try in the endless sojourn for an "ACE", and this one a headcase rent? (hello "elite" AJ Burnett )Actually, he was injured and didn't pitch in the 2003 postseason.

kittle42
07-26-2012, 01:00 PM
Why would we let Quintana go? He's easily our 3rd best pitcher.

Because maybe they don't think he'll hold up once the league gets to see him. It would not be a terrible sell high move.

kittle42
07-26-2012, 01:01 PM
Names are escaping me and certainly no one as impactful as the other two, but it just seems like we've given up a lot of pitching prospects over the years for the "now". Maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

I can't think of anyone else we've given away recently that turned into anything.

Harry Chappas
07-26-2012, 01:03 PM
Why would we let Quintana go? He's easily our 3rd best pitcher.

And Bekcham and Viciedo (the ONLY young hitter we have) I've heard - for yet another try in the endless sojourn for an "ACE", and this one a headcase rent? (hello "elite" AJ Burnett )

With regards to Quintana, I'm sure the Sox share your sentiment. There's no way they'd consider trading him at this point. That's robbing Peter to pay Paul. Frankly, I'm not sure Quintana isn't better than Greinke. Statistically, he's better than him in every way except for strikeouts and wins and Quintana is young, cheap, and controllable. And it isn't like he has only succeeded against crappy teams.

The Sox future rotation will likely be centered around Sale, Quintana, and Danks. Floyd is expendable in my mind. If the Sox make the post-season, who here trusts Floyd in a 5-game series? Not me.

kittle42
07-26-2012, 01:39 PM
With regards to Quintana, I'm sure the Sox share your sentiment. There's no way they'd consider trading him at this point. That's robbing Peter to pay Paul. Frankly, I'm not sure Quintana isn't better than Greinke. Statistically, he's better than him in every way except for strikeouts and wins and Quintana is young, cheap, and controllable. And it isn't like he has only succeeded against crappy teams.

That is a LOT of speculation.

By that logic, one would be thrilled with a playoff rotation that included Quintana, Fiers, Miley, and Detwiler. Statistically for 2012, they are better than a lot of highly paid, generally-considered-awesome pitchers. But I'd rather have Greinke or even up-to-now crappy Cliff Lee than any of them.

Qunitana has been GREAT thus far, but if the Sox consider him untouchable, KW is nuttier than I thought.

hoosiersoxfan
07-26-2012, 01:46 PM
I can't think of anyone else we've given away recently that turned into anything.

Brandon McCarthy was a big name that nobody wanted traded and he's been nothing special. Even with Danks being hurt most of this year, I still feel the Sox came out on the better end of that trade.

Harry Chappas
07-26-2012, 01:48 PM
That is a LOT of speculation.

By that logic, one would be thrilled with a playoff rotation that included Quintana, Fiers, Miley, and Detwiler. Statistically for 2012, they are better than a lot of highly paid, generally-considered-awesome pitchers. But I'd rather have Greinke or even up-to-now crappy Cliff Lee than any of them.

Qunitana has been GREAT thus far, but if the Sox consider him untouchable, KW is nuttier than I thought.

I doubt he's viewed as untouchable nor should he be, but I think he's too valuable to part with for a rental like Greinke.

At some point, the Sox are going to have to think beyond just the present. A 23-year old lefty with pin-point control would seem like someone you'd want to hang on to.

doublem23
07-26-2012, 01:57 PM
I can't think of anyone else we've given away recently that turned into anything.

Pitching-wise I agree with you, but we've also traded away a couple of position players that turned out OK, most notably, Mike Morse. Though he was part of the Freddy deal in 2004 so I have a hard time feeling upset over that. Sometimes you have to crack an egg to make an omelette.

The Immigrant
07-26-2012, 02:00 PM
Pitching-wise I agree with you, but we've also traded away a couple of position players that turned out OK, most notably, Mike Morse. Though he was part of the Freddy deal in 2004 so I have a hard time feeling upset over that. Sometimes you have to crack an egg to make an omelette.

That deal was done a few years before Morse started taking horse steroids.

rdivaldi
07-26-2012, 02:09 PM
rdivaldi-

I remember you having the picture of your baby in a Sox outfit in your signature for the longest time. THAT is him now? Wow. That makes me feel freaking old.

Hahahahah! Yes, my little guy isn't so little anymore. Hard to believe it's been 7 years..

rdivaldi
07-26-2012, 02:13 PM
Names are escaping me and certainly no one as impactful as the other two, but it just seems like we've given up a lot of pitching prospects over the years for the "now". Maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

At the time I didn't like the Peavy deal due to the money owed, and I thought Richard could be a solid #4 or #5 starter. I know he hasn't looked great in SD but he looked better back then IIRC.

We've given up quite a few, but except for Gio, none have achieved long-term success as a top of the rotation pitcher. You may argue Hudson, but we'll have to see what happens to him. He wouldn't have done us any good this year.

I guess I just don't want to see them move Quintana for the "now".

+1, I don't think that would be in the organization's best interest.

rdivaldi
07-26-2012, 02:16 PM
That deal was done a few years before Morse started taking horse steroids.

Actually Morse was suspended in the minors for taking PEDs, but that was a long time ago. He's an interesting case, was a SS but considered too big to play SS. There was an interesting article years ago about his relationship with Cal Ripken. He's moved around quite a bit, but he's finally settled in.

Lip Man 1
07-26-2012, 02:26 PM
Hasn't he had a down year compared to last season and been hurt this year?

I'll need to wait a few more years before saying the Sox let a good position player go. Last year might have simply been a fluke for him.

Lip

Huisj
07-26-2012, 03:26 PM
Clayton Richard comes to mind. He's not a star, but he's solid enough to be leading the NL in IP right now.

seventyseven
07-26-2012, 03:54 PM
I can't think of anyone else we've given away recently that turned into anything.

Gio? (Twice.)

kittle42
07-26-2012, 03:54 PM
Clayton Richard comes to mind. He's not a star, but he's solid enough to be leading the NL in IP right now.

Petco-aided pitcher. He'd be horrid here (my opinion, of course).

kittle42
07-26-2012, 03:55 PM
Gio? (Twice.)

He was mentioned.

Lip Man 1
07-26-2012, 04:22 PM
Brewers G.M. says Grienke will be traded:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8203245/report-milwaukee-brewers-gm-doug-melvin-says-zack-greinke-dealt

Lip

Tragg
07-26-2012, 04:48 PM
Brandon McCarthy was a big name that nobody wanted traded and he's been nothing special. Even with Danks being hurt most of this year, I still feel the Sox came out on the better end of that trade.

yea, but that was one prospect with some ML experience (McCarthy) for Danks who was one of those "near ML ready" plus 2 other prospects. Prospect for prospect trade.

Quintana is an efficient pitcher with low pitch counts who looks like he can pitch all day. His Ks are kind of low, so it may be fools gold, but so far so good.
Williams has this Ahab-syndrome for the "Ace" starter, and more often than not, the trades toward that end have been poor.....you could consider Garcia a good trade except that he wasn't Ace material to begin with.
The Peavy trade is dubious because of the opportunity cost of what you gave up plus the fact that it's debatable whether Peavy has been more valuable over the 3 year period than Richard. Glad we have him this year though.

The Sox have 2 shutdown starters right now. That will take us a long way in a 5 game series or a 1 game series if we hit the W Card.
Greinke has had a solid year, although not spectacular. Certainly it's no better than Quintana's year. Of course most of his career he's been well above average, but not spectacular.

And while Hudson spends a lot of time on the DL, that still was not a good trade; we way overpaid to a salary dumping team. And of course, WE gave Toronto/ST Louis Jackson for a bag of balls.

TDog
07-26-2012, 05:19 PM
...
And while Hudson spends a lot of time on the DL, that still was not a good trade; we way overpaid to a salary dumping team. And of course, WE gave Toronto/ST Louis Jackson for a bag of balls.

Lucas Harrell may have a brighter future than Daniel Hudson, or maybe not considering Harrell might be pitching in the American League next year. I has been a while, even a while before his injury was diagnosed, since Hudson has been a very good pitcher.

Lip Man 1
07-26-2012, 06:05 PM
Stark says it'll come down to four teams, Texas, Angels, White Sox and Braves.

On TV he said he thinks the Rangers get him:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8201996/latest-deadline-dealings-all-eyes-brewers-zack-greinke

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
07-26-2012, 09:20 PM
Didn't see Chris Young mentioned. He's been pretty decent power hitting CF, although his batting average is rather low.

DSpivack
07-26-2012, 09:33 PM
Didn't see Chris Young mentioned. He's been pretty decent power hitting CF, although his batting average is rather low.

He had promising potential at one point, but I think he's just not very good. .218/.324/.447 this season, and his career numbers aren't much better (.238 career BA).

WhiteSox5187
07-26-2012, 09:34 PM
He was mentioned.

Was Daniel Hudson mentioned?

RCWHITESOX
07-26-2012, 09:46 PM
You have to give up something to get something the quality of Grienke. If your the Brewers your not giving him up for Humber and sack of balls. I hope the Sox can get him and I trust Williams to get him if possible.

kittle42
07-26-2012, 09:59 PM
Was Daniel Hudson mentioned?

Am I the only one with the ability to reads earlier posts in this thread? :smile:

"I agree. At this point I think we've see the best Floyd has since 2007. Better to get what we can for him if it helps this year. Way too soon to let Quintana go lest he become another name in the list...Gio...Hudson....etc"

WhiteSox5187
07-26-2012, 10:20 PM
Am I the only one with the ability to reads earlier posts in this thread? :smile:

"I agree. At this point I think we've see the best Floyd has since 2007. Better to get what we can for him if it helps this year. Way too soon to let Quintana go lest he become another name in the list...Gio...Hudson....etc"

I was on my phone when I wrote that so I couldn't really scan through it.

gosox41
07-26-2012, 10:20 PM
What about going after Greinke? Brewers cant sign him long term, and are probably going to move him. It would most likely be a rental player on our part, but could you imagine the rotation we would have?

No thanky.

He's a head case. He can't handle the limelight or hostile crowds.

He's essentially Javy Vazquez with much better stuff which means he'll tease you that much more with what could be.


Bob

kittle42
07-26-2012, 10:22 PM
The armchair psychologists are out in full force!

WisSoxFan
07-26-2012, 10:26 PM
With the Rangers getting actively involved I can't see the Sox being able to pull it off. Hopefully Kenny can get creative and that Floyd to Toronto for prospects to flip for Greinke comes true. I really like him and I think that rotation makes the Sox serious contenders to win the whole damn thing!

WhiteSox5187
07-26-2012, 10:33 PM
The armchair psychologists are out in full force!

Honestly. I have depression and some social anxiety issues as well and while I have never pitched in front of 40,000 people I have done certain types of performances. What it means really is that you have days where you feel REAL down and days where you feel REAL good and if you see a doctor and stay on your medicine it's a pretty treatable disease.

balke
07-27-2012, 12:20 AM
Hasn't he had a down year compared to last season and been hurt this year?

I'll need to wait a few more years before saying the Sox let a good position player go. Last year might have simply been a fluke for him.

Lip


Chris Carter is doing okay at the moment. He's no Quentin though.

Thing about prospects sometimes, when will they get good? When will you have to pay them? Viciedo is getting good it looks like. Isn't this his last year under contract?

WisSoxFan
07-27-2012, 06:36 AM
Chris Carter is doing okay at the moment. He's no Quentin though.

Thing about prospects sometimes, when will they get good? When will you have to pay them? Viciedo is getting good it looks like. Isn't this his last year under contract?

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/?page_id=84

According to Cots this is the last year of his contract. I also didn't realize that Scott Boras is his agent.

doublem23
07-27-2012, 08:26 AM
Thing about prospects sometimes, when will they get good? When will you have to pay them? Viciedo is getting good it looks like. Isn't this his last year under contract?

This is the last year of his first pro contract, but due to his service time and the arbitration process in Major League Baseball, he cannot become a free agent until after the 2017 season unless the Sox drop him.

Quentin08
07-27-2012, 08:44 AM
Honestly. I have depression and some social anxiety issues as well and while I have never pitched in front of 40,000 people I have done certain types of performances. What it means really is that you have days where you feel REAL down and days where you feel REAL good and if you see a doctor and stay on your medicine it's a pretty treatable disease.

Agreed. I have experience with this stuff as well. I hate to speculate, but I wouldn't be surprised if he feels most comfortable once he's on the mound, regardless of how big or hostile the crowd is. He probably gets in a zone, like any other pro athlete, and his SA doesn't affect him once he's in the game... especially if he's taking a beta blocker. It's the off-the-field engagements like interviews and social interactions that bring out the anxiety. As long as he's playing for a contender, I think he'll enjoy coming out to the park each day, and none of these issues will have an adverse effect on his performance.

doublem23
07-27-2012, 09:01 AM
Agreed. I have experience with this stuff as well. I hate to speculate, but I wouldn't be surprised if he feels most comfortable once he's on the mound, regardless of how big or hostile the crowd is. He probably gets in a zone, like any other pro athlete, and his SA doesn't affect him once he's in the game... especially if he's taking a beta blocker. It's the off-the-field engagements like interviews and social interactions that bring out the anxiety. As long as he's playing for a contender, I think he'll enjoy coming out to the park each day, and none of these issues will have an adverse effect on his performance.

Yeah, it should be noted that Greinke's 2011 season was one of the best of his career (obviously not as good as his year in 2009 when he won the AL Cy Young) while he pitched for a Brewers team that averaged almost 38,000 people per game.

kevingrt
07-27-2012, 10:00 AM
Yeah, it should be noted that Greinke's 2011 season was one of the best of his career (obviously not as good as his year in 2009 when he won the AL Cy Young) while he pitched for a Brewers team that averaged almost 38,000 people per game.

Based on certain peripherals one could argue 2012 has been a better season for Greinke then 2011. He's strike rate is a bit lower (8.93 vs 10.54) however his GB/FB rate has risen as well (54$ vs. 47%). His ERA has lowered by 0.40 so far and his FIP is 2.50 vs. 2.98 in 2011. All things considered they are very comparable #1 starter numbers. Anybody that gets him is getting a gem no regardless of his psychological issues.

kittle42
07-27-2012, 10:00 AM
Yeah, it should be noted that Greinke's 2011 season was one of the best of his career (obviously not as good as his year in 2009 when he won the AL Cy Young) while he pitched for a Brewers team that averaged almost 38,000 people per game.

But, but, but....that goes against the meme!

DeadMoney
07-27-2012, 10:04 AM
Based on certain peripherals one could argue 2012 has been a better season for Greinke then 2011. He's strike rate is a bit lower (8.93 vs 10.54) however his GB/FB rate has risen as well (54$ vs. 47%). His ERA has lowered by 0.40 so far and his FIP is 2.50 vs. 2.98 in 2011. All things considered they are very comparable #1 starter numbers. Anybody that gets him is getting a gem no regardless of his psychological issues.

Especially when you consider the fact that he's given up something like 23 runs in just 5 IP, while only surrendering 28 runs in the other 118 IP. Blow up innings aside, he's had a great season.

jdm2662
07-27-2012, 10:09 AM
Especially when you consider the fact that he's given up something like 23 runs in just 5 IP, while only surrendering 28 runs in the other 118 IP. Blow up innings aside, he's had a great season.

Yeah, when he started three games in a row, it took a hit on his ERA. When they shut him down for ten games after that, he's been back to himself again.

doublem23
07-27-2012, 10:10 AM
But, but, but....that goes against the meme!

And 38,000 Wisconsinites is like 48,000 normal people!

dickallen15
07-27-2012, 10:22 AM
Especially when you consider the fact that he's given up something like 23 runs in just 5 IP, while only surrendering 28 runs in the other 118 IP. Blow up innings aside, he's had a great season.
For the record, Quintana, a guy rumored to be in KW's offer has given up 14 runs in his worst 5 innings this year and 8 runs the other innings. If Greinke gives up 4 or 5 runs in an inning every 4 or 5 times he takes the mound in the NL, how much bang for your buck are you getting for 10 starts?

TheOldRoman
07-27-2012, 10:47 AM
For the record, Quintana, a guy rumored to be in KW's offer has given up 14 runs in his worst 5 innings this year and 8 runs the other innings. If Greinke gives up 4 or 5 runs in an inning every 4 or 5 times he takes the mound in the NL, how much bang for your buck are you getting for 10 starts?Is there any "rumor" of an offer or just people speculating? I have heard he was offering guys from the major league roster, but I didn't hear any specific names get out.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-27-2012, 11:04 AM
For the record, Quintana, a guy rumored to be in KW's offer has given up 14 runs in his worst 5 innings this year and 8 runs the other innings. If Greinke gives up 4 or 5 runs in an inning every 4 or 5 times he takes the mound in the NL, how much bang for your buck are you getting for 10 starts?

Why would you trade Quintana for a two-month rental? (Don't tell me to win the World Series because that is unlikely to happen under any scenario and the Sox would not be favored to win if they got Greinke.) That would be as dumb or dumber than the Dan Hudson trade.

shes
07-27-2012, 11:15 AM
Why would you trade Quintana for a two-month rental?

Because you're Kenny Williams.

WisSoxFan
07-27-2012, 11:24 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-120726-chicago-white-sox-mailbag,0,819977.story

I had not seen this posted (well at least the mention of Felix Hernandez). If I missed it, I apologize.

In the linked article Mark Gonzales answers a question comparing Floyd and Greinke with a line about not counting out Felix Hernandez. I know it's cliche to mention Williams and under the radar, but that seems like it would fit the cliche nicely.

doublem23
07-27-2012, 11:25 AM
Why would you trade Quintana for a two-month rental? (Don't tell me to win the World Series because that is unlikely to happen under any scenario and the Sox would not be favored to win if they got Greinke.) That would be as dumb or dumber than the Dan Hudson trade.

Well, first, when the Sox do play well they're certainly capable of beating any team in the league, and in short series, it's been well noted that pitching-heavy teams have an advantage. You're telling me you wouldn't go to war with Peavy/Sale/Greinke starting potentially 6 of 7 games? I ****ing would. Of any of the other contenders in the AL, I don't think anyone could match those kind of horses.

And let's not talk about Jose Quintana like he's some kind of untouchable top prospect just coming into his own. The guy was kicked around by 2 organizations before landing with the Sox. The guy has only started 11 games in his career. He's far from a "building block of the future."

That said, I'm not 100% sure I'd pull the trigger on that deal, but I'm certainly not 100% sure I wouldn't.

WisSoxFan
07-27-2012, 11:28 AM
Well, first, when the Sox do play well they're certainly capable of beating any team in the league, and in short series, it's been well noted that pitching-heavy teams have an advantage. You're telling me you wouldn't go to war with Peavy/Sale/Greinke starting potentially 6 of 7 games? I ****ing would. Of any of the other contenders in the AL, I don't think anyone could match those kind of horses.

And let's not talk about Jose Quintana like he's some kind of untouchable top prospect just coming into his own. The guy was kicked around by 2 organizations before landing with the Sox. The guy has only started 11 games in his career. He's far from a "building block of the future."

That said, I'm not 100% sure I'd pull the trigger on that deal, but I'm certainly not 100% sure I wouldn't.

I agree with your sentiments. For me the "pull the trigger percentage" would be based on getting Greinke signed. If they can sign him then go for it - he's only 28 I believe. If not then...I'm not sure.

WisSoxFan
07-27-2012, 11:31 AM
Play the "what if" game.

If it's Quintana and Beckham and some A-ball "prospect" for Greinke (or Felix Hernandez) and a prospect do you make the deal?

kittle42
07-27-2012, 11:35 AM
Anointing Quintana a building block after 11 starts is like anointing the Sox World Series contenders if they go 3-0 to start the season.

CHISOXFAN13
07-27-2012, 11:40 AM
Play the "what if" game.

If it's Quintana and Beckham and some A-ball "prospect" for Greinke (or Felix Hernandez) and a prospect do you make the deal?

There's no way in hell that's enough for Felix. The Mariners already have a young second baseman in Dustin Ackley anyway.

delben91
07-27-2012, 11:41 AM
Anointing Quintana a building block after 11 starts is like anointing the Sox World Series contenders if they go 3-0 to start the season.

Well, this is WSI...

SOX ADDICT '73
07-27-2012, 11:46 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-120726-chicago-white-sox-mailbag,0,819977.story

I had not seen this posted (well at least the mention of Felix Hernandez). If I missed it, I apologize.

In the linked article Mark Gonzales answers a question comparing Floyd and Greinke with a line about not counting out Felix Hernandez. I know it's cliche to mention Williams and under the radar, but that seems like it would fit the cliche nicely.
Things turned out pretty well for us the last time Kenny traded for the Mariners' ace.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wAYyNDVYwzI/SXlryBmfM7I/AAAAAAAAABo/-_HgVTcozb8/s400/Freddygarcia.jpg

Chez
07-27-2012, 11:46 AM
Anointing Quintana a building block after 11 starts is like anointing the Sox World Series contenders if they go 3-0 to start the season.

Good point, but I'd rather trade Floyd and his contract for 12-13 regular season Greinke starts.

kittle42
07-27-2012, 11:55 AM
Good point, but I'd rather trade Floyd and his contract for 12-13 regular season Greinke starts.

So would I, of course.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-27-2012, 12:47 PM
Some people are comfortable mortgaging the future for two months of Greinke, but not me. And while some are projecting success if the Sox get him, that is not guaranteed.

First, even if they get him, there is no guarantee the Sox will make the playoffs.

Second, if they do make the playoffs, everyone seems to think Greinke is the path to the promised land. That is not the case, based on past performance. His playoff record is poor, with a career 6.48 ERA in the post season in 3 games. Yes, it's a small sample size, but I am very leery of him due to his documented problems with pressure and the pressure in the post season is tremendous. He has not responded positively yet, and I would not bet the farm that he'll do so in the future.

His ERA this year is much higher than Quintana while pitching in the NL.

If they do want him, I would let the Brewers have guys like Axelrod, Phegley, Omogrosso, Septimo, Kenny Williams Jr (that would be funny), and the like.

WhiteSox5187
07-27-2012, 01:12 PM
Anointing Quintana a building block after 11 starts is like anointing the Sox World Series contenders if they go 3-0 to start the season.

Right but he is also a 23 year old lefty who has a lot of success his first time thru the league and is under the White Sox control for quite awhile. I am not willing to anoint him as much of anything but the White Sox NEED to start thinking long term as well as short term. Greinke would obviously be a great addition for this season but Quintana could, and I emphasize could, be a great piece for several years. The last couple of times we have traded away young starters for rentals it has come back to haunt us. I would think long and hard about making that trade.

kittle42
07-27-2012, 01:24 PM
Second, if they do make the playoffs, everyone seems to think Greinke is the path to the promised land. That is not the case, based on past performance. His playoff record is poor, with a career 6.48 ERA in the post season in 3 games. Yes, it's a small sample size, but I am very leery of him due to his documented problems with pressure and the pressure in the post season is tremendous. He has not responded positively yet, and I would not bet the farm that he'll do so in the future.

His "documented" problems with SAD all occurred while in that high-pressure environment of KC. You know, the place from which he asked to be traded so he could play for a contender?

Yes, his three games of postseason results aren't good. But those are three games. Or are the members of the "Alex Rodriguez is a choker I wouldn't want on my team" crew still buzzing?

My point being, everyone opining here on Greinke's "documented problems" could stand to inform themselves a little more.

If they do want him, I would let the Brewers have guys like Axelrod, Phegley, Omogrosso, Septimo, Kenny Williams Jr (that would be funny), and the like.

And you would find maybe, I don't know, zero trade partners in any trade for those guys. Zach Stewart had more upside.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-27-2012, 01:35 PM
And you would find maybe, I don't know, zero trade partners in any trade for those guys. Zach Stewart had more upside.

Which is my point. You don't trade the core guys. If we don't have anything left other than core guys to trade, then you can't make the trade. You can't trade the future for a two-month rental.

asindc
07-27-2012, 01:43 PM
Some people are comfortable mortgaging the future for two months of Greinke, but not me. And while some are projecting success if the Sox get him, that is not guaranteed.

First, even if they get him, there is no guarantee the Sox will make the playoffs.

Second, if they do make the playoffs, everyone seems to think Greinke is the path to the promised land. That is not the case, based on past performance. His playoff record is poor, with a career 6.48 ERA in the post season in 3 games. Yes, it's a small sample size, but I am very leery of him due to his documented problems with pressure and the pressure in the post season is tremendous. He has not responded positively yet, and I would not bet the farm that he'll do so in the future.

His ERA this year is much higher than Quintana while pitching in the NL.

If they do want him, I would let the Brewers have guys like Axelrod, Phegley, Omogrosso, Septimo, Kenny Williams Jr (that would be funny), and the like.

Yeah, kinda like when some people talk about a young pitcher with 11 starts in his career as if he is guaranteed to be the future, or that acquiring Greinke guarantees he won't sign with the Sox after this year.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-27-2012, 01:51 PM
Yeah, kinda like when some people talk about a young pitcher with 11 starts in his career as if he is guaranteed to be the future, or that acquiring Greinke guarantees he won't sign with the Sox after this year.

If we're so confident we can sign him, we ought to wait till the offseason and get him for nothing. Well, nothing other than $100-million for 5 years. I can't wait to see Jerry's face when KW gives him the tab.

thomas35forever
07-27-2012, 01:56 PM
I for one would be happy to trade Floyd for Greinke. Yes, Floyd is decent, but very inconsistent. How he lucked into a quality start victory on Monday is beyond me. I've seen enough of him over the years to know this. If Greinke can provide greater stability over the next two months, I'm all for it.

doublem23
07-27-2012, 02:03 PM
Some people are comfortable mortgaging the future for two months of Greinke, but not me. And while some are projecting success if the Sox get him, that is not guaranteed.

Again, we have to stop talking about Quintana as if he's "the future." He's not a Brandon Beachy/Jarrod Parker/Jacob Turner type prospect. He's a guy whose having a great deal of success his first go around the league, and while that is encouraging for such an off-the-radar kid, baseball history is littered with guys like this. Remember when people balked at the idea of trading away Gordon Beckham? Even when the Sox were supposedly in talks with the Yankees to essentially swap Beckham for Cano? Remember when people threw a **** fit when the Sox dumped Brandon McCarthy? Quintana's been huge for the Sox to date, but that is certainly no guarantee he will be successful for the next 5-10 years, let alone even 2013.

First, even if they get him, there is no guarantee the Sox will make the playoffs.

And there is no guarantee that if the Sox do keep Quintana, and he stays an above average pitcher for a decade or so, that they'll ever have another shot as good as this at the post-season. Konerko, Dunn, Rios, Pierzynski, Peavy, Youkilis, and Alexei are all on the wrong side of 30. A couple of those guys might not even be here next season. Add that a couple of usual powerhouses like the Red Sox and Rays are having down years, and the fact that the Tigers don't seem to have any kind of budget right now, and the remote possibility that KC, Minnesota, or Cleveland might catch lighting in a bottle one day, and the possibility exists that this might be the Sox's best chance at a postseason run in the near future.

Second, if they do make the playoffs, everyone seems to think Greinke is the path to the promised land. That is not the case, based on past performance. His playoff record is poor, with a career 6.48 ERA in the post season in 3 games. Yes, it's a small sample size, but I am very leery of him due to his documented problems with pressure and the pressure in the post season is tremendous. He has not responded positively yet, and I would not bet the farm that he'll do so in the future.

Well, as has been noted, Greinke's biggest issues with SAD happened while he was toiling away in obscurity in Kansas City. Last season, his first in a new city, in a season-long pennant chase, in front of nearly 40,000 fans every home game, he turned in a brilliant year. So this idea that he can't handle pressure is a bit overestimated. Look, it's not 1912 where they just diagnose you as CRAZY and ship you off to some asylum in the middle of nowhere. He obviously has good doctors helping him.

As for his postseason numbers, well, 3 starts is too small to ever make any assumptions on. Jose Contreras, FWIW, appeared in 4 games for the Yankees in the 2003 playoffs and put up an ERA of nearly 6. He turned out OK in 2005, though.

His ERA this year is much higher than Quintana while pitching in the NL.

If they do want him, I would let the Brewers have guys like Axelrod, Phegley, Omogrosso, Septimo, Kenny Williams Jr (that would be funny), and the like.

Obviously that package is garbage. I don't know why we're harping on Quintana as a guy who is definitely part of the talks, I haven't seen any real report on it other than 1 unsubstantiated post on this forum, and, I don't know how long you've been around here, but there have been hundreds of crazy trade speculations around here and 99.9% of them turn out to be false.

Now, that said, I think KW knows more about building a winning baseball team than anyone here, so ultimately, whatever he decides to do, is probably the correct move.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-27-2012, 02:04 PM
I for one would be happy to trade Floyd for Greinke. Yes, Floyd is decent, but very inconsistent. How he lucked into a quality start victory on Monday is beyond me. I've seen enough of him over the years to know this. If Greinke can provide greater stability over the next two months, I'm all for it.

I'd do the same thing in a minute. In fact, if we can get Greinke for Floyd, I would throw in J. Danks That sure would clear out a whole lot of salary to actually get good pitchers for what we're spending on those two annually.

doublem23
07-27-2012, 02:07 PM
I'd do the same thing in a minute. In fact, if we can get Greinke for Floyd, I would throw in J. Danks That sure would clear out a whole lot of salary to actually get good pitchers for what we're spending on those two annually.

Teams in salary dump mode are certainly bending over backwards to pick up pitchers with $57 million left on their contract

The rumors haven't been the Sox are trying to ship Floyd to Milwaukee for Greinke, the rumors are the Sox are trying to shop Floyd, perhaps for 1-2 prospects, who they can then add in a package to Milwaukee for Greinke. The Brewers aren't looking acquire veterans, they're looking to rebuild for upcoming years.

kittle42
07-27-2012, 02:14 PM
The rumors haven't been the Sox are trying to ship Floyd to Milwaukee for Greinke, the rumors are the Sox are trying to shop Floyd, perhaps for 1-2 prospects, who they can then add in a package to Milwaukee for Greinke. The Brewers aren't looking acquire veterans, they're looking to rebuild for upcoming years.

Shame on you! Sense must not be made in this thread.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-27-2012, 02:26 PM
Again, we have to stop talking about Quintana as if he's "the future." He's not a Brandon Beachy/Jarrod Parker/Jacob Turner type prospect. He's a guy whose having a great deal of success his first go around the league, and while that is encouraging for such an off-the-radar kid, baseball history is littered with guys like this. Remember when people balked at the idea of trading away Gordon Beckham? Even when the Sox were supposedly in talks with the Yankees to essentially swap Beckham for Cano? Remember when people threw a **** fit when the Sox dumped Brandon McCarthy? Quintana's been huge for the Sox to date, but that is certainly no guarantee he will be successful for the next 5-10 years, let alone even 2013.

There's also no guarantee that Greinke and his prorated $12-million salary will guarantee success or he won't blow out his arm or get his by a bus. But from a financial standpoint, trading young players for one very very expensive player is tough in this environment, because the Sox have no margin of error because revenues are not as great as for other teams. Attendance this year is sagging. You take on a two-month rental and lose a chance to keep a low-priced starter (if indeed Quintana is being discussed; we have no idea) and it can cripple the team for years. I still can't figure out why we traded Hudson for a guy making $7-million.


Well, as has been noted, Greinke's biggest issues with SAD happened while he was toiling away in obscurity in Kansas City. Last season, his first in a new city, in a season-long pennant chase, in front of nearly 40,000 fans every home game, he turned in a brilliant year. So this idea that he can't handle pressure is a bit overestimated. Look, it's not 1912 where they just diagnose you as CRAZY and ship you off to some asylum in the middle of nowhere. He obviously has good doctors helping him.

Well, as recently as 2011, in the modern era, they did diagnose Ozzie as crazy and shipped him out to Miami. Unfortunately, the sun and sand have not worked any wonders on or for him. He's the still the same *******.


Obviously that package is garbage. I don't know why we're harping on Quintana as a guy who is definitely part of the talks, I haven't seen any real report on it other than 1 unsubstantiated post on this forum, and, I don't know how long you've been around here, but there have been hundreds of crazy trade speculations around here and 99.9% of them turn out to be false.

Now, that said, I think KW knows more about building a winning baseball team than anyone here, so ultimately, whatever he decides to do, is probably the correct move.

As a fan, I beg to differ. It is my god-given right to second-guess KW, particularly when he makes bone-headed moves, which is often.

kittle42
07-27-2012, 02:32 PM
Now, that said, I think KW knows more about building a winning baseball team than anyone here, so ultimately, whatever he decides to do, is probably the correct move.

I hate this line of argument, which never allows someone not holding the position which is being second-guessed to ever question decisionmaking.

Weak.

doublem23
07-27-2012, 02:37 PM
There's also no guarantee that Greinke and his prorated $12-million salary will guarantee success or he won't blow out his arm or get his by a bus. But from a financial standpoint, trading young players for one very very expensive player is tough in this environment, because the Sox have no margin of error because revenues are not as great as for other teams. Attendance this year is sagging. You take on a two-month rental and lose a chance to keep a low-priced starter (if indeed Quintana is being discussed; we have no idea) and it can cripple the team for years. I still can't figure out why we traded Hudson for a guy making $7-million.

Well first, you're right, Greinke's salary would be prorated for the remainder of the season, so the Sox would only be on the hook for about $3.5 million which is not at all a crippling amount. And yes, teams do trade young players for expensive rentals, the Tigers just traded their top prospect for a couple, the Yankees just acquired an aging OF, the Braves were supposedly willing to part with a young P to acquire Ryan Dempster, it's what winning teams do.

As for the Hudson deal, what about all the times KW proved to be correct? People screamed bloody murder when he dealt McCarthy, does anyone want to take that one back? People flipped their lid when he dealt Olivo and Reed for Freddy. Another good one. You can harp on Hudson and his 7+ ERA and now surgically repaired elbow all you want, but you're not being fair if you only criticize the bad moves without acknowledging the good ones.

As a fan, I beg to differ. It is my god-given right to second-guess KW, particularly when he makes bone-headed moves, which is often.

http://a.espncdn.com/media/mlb/2006/0404/photo/g_williams_275.jpg

SoxThunder
07-27-2012, 02:48 PM
As for the Hudson deal, what about all the times KW proved to be correct? People screamed bloody murder when he dealt McCarthy, does anyone want to take that one back? People flipped their lid when he dealt Olivo and Reed for Freddy. Another good one. You can harp on Hudson and his 7+ ERA and now surgically repaired elbow all you want, but you're not being fair if you only criticize the bad moves without acknowledging the good ones.



http://a.espncdn.com/media/mlb/2006/0404/photo/g_williams_275.jpg

Doublem, are you Chris Rongey? Haha, j/k

doublem23
07-27-2012, 02:49 PM
I hate this line of argument, which never allows someone not holding the position which is being second-guessed to ever question decisionmaking.

Weak.

I know what you're saying, but the flip to that is there is certainly a TON of things none of us can possibly even understand about the day-to-day operation of a Major League team, so in a way, it is kind of unfair for fans to think they have an unlimited soapbox to judge moves and what not, especially based on speculated, future results. If you want to say KW was an idiot for the Swisher debacles, or for holding on to Jermaine Dye too long, or for the Hudson trade, that's fine, there's ample evidence we can all evaluate but to say you have the right to criticize a trade of a no-name pitcher with 11 starts? Give me a break.

I think the very fact that we're having this discussion, should the Sox trade away a 23-year-old they plucked off minor league free agent wires last year for a former Cy Young Award winner still in his prime years, is evidence enough that KW and his scouting staff probably know more about this than we do. Unless I missed everyone's posts this off-season clammoring for the Sox to pick up Jose Quintana. :shrug:

central44
07-27-2012, 02:57 PM
I hate this line of argument, which never allows someone not holding the position which is being second-guessed to ever question decisionmaking.

Weak.

I think KW deserves the benefit of the doubt. He hits a lot more than he misses. Last year everyone wanted him fired due to Dunn, Rios, and Peavy...now those three guys are cornerstones for a contending team.

KW has won a championship. He has access to information that we, as fans, do not. He's not going to hit every time, but no GM does. At the end of the day, he's the best GM either side of town has seen in an extremely long time.

delben91
07-27-2012, 04:07 PM
Jon Heyman at CBS Sports reporting the Sox are heavy into the running for Grienke but would have to deal players from the ML Roster. Does imply that the players considered for the deal would be from "other areas" of the team.

I read that to mean not the rotation, and thus not Quintana, but what do I know?

Link (http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jon-heyman/19670353/white-sox-trying-hard-for-greinke-they-can-do-a-deal----if-theyll-give-up-big-leaguer)

doublem23
07-27-2012, 04:11 PM
Please not Viciedo

wsoxfan
07-27-2012, 04:15 PM
I think the very fact that we're having this discussion, should the Sox trade away a 23-year-old they plucked off minor league free agent wires last year for a former Cy Young Award winner still in his prime years, is evidence enough that KW and his scouting staff probably know more about this than we do. Unless I missed everyone's posts this off-season clammoring for the Sox to pick up Jose Quintana. :shrug:

Well said...

WhiteSox5187
07-27-2012, 04:15 PM
http://a.espncdn.com/media/mlb/2006/0404/photo/g_williams_275.jpg

Does that mean I can post the picture of Ozzie holding the World Series trophy over his head and win an argument about his moves?

doublem23
07-27-2012, 04:17 PM
Does that mean I can post the picture of Ozzie holding the World Series trophy over his head and win an argument about his moves?

If the comparison is against anyone on these boards, sure. I think Ozzie is a better manager than any off us.

It should be noted that KW had more to do with that '05 team than anybody, he either was in charge of their development for the homegrown guys and acquired the rest as GM. He was the sole architect of that team.

PalehosePlanet
07-27-2012, 04:24 PM
Please not Viciedo

The Brewers have also given up on Axford as the closer, and K-Rod -- who has been just as bad in his attempt to close -- will be a free agent after the year. Their pen in general is in shambles.

It's very possible they might want a Nate Jones and Hector Santiago type package and have cost controlled pen arms for the next few years.

And, yes, I definitely agree with not trading Viciedo.

Lip Man 1
07-27-2012, 04:25 PM
Jason Stark at ESPN.com wrote today that the Braves appear to be out of the race telling people in baseball they are now concentrating on improving the bullpen.

Lip

delben91
07-27-2012, 04:27 PM
I think Ozzie is a better manager than any off us.



Some (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=129216&highlight=Could+you+manage+better+than+ozzie%3F) would disagree with you.

rdivaldi
07-27-2012, 04:28 PM
As a fan, I beg to differ. It is my god-given right to second-guess KW, particularly when he makes bone-headed moves, which is often.

It may be your "god-given" right, but please tone down the hyperbole.

WhiteSox5187
07-27-2012, 04:29 PM
If the comparison is against anyone on these boards, sure. I think Ozzie is a better manager than any off us.

It should be noted that KW had more to do with that '05 team than anybody, he either was in charge of their development for the homegrown guys and acquired the rest as GM. He was the sole architect of that team.

Kenny deserves a lot of credit for 2005 but if you go back and watch the championship DVD he gives a lot of credit to Ozzie because it was Ozzie who wanted to build around pitching, defense and speed rather than the teams earlier in the decade that were built solely around power with defense being an after thought.

rdivaldi
07-27-2012, 04:31 PM
There's also no guarantee that Greinke and his prorated $12-million salary will guarantee success or he won't blow out his arm or get his by a bus. You take on a two-month rental and lose a chance to keep a low-priced starter (if indeed Quintana is being discussed; we have no idea) and it can cripple the team for years. I still can't figure out why we traded Hudson for a guy making $7-million.

Defending a build for the future mentality might be better served if you didn't continually bring up a player who is injured and out for the season.

guillensdisciple
07-27-2012, 04:35 PM
Jon Heyman at CBS Sports reporting the Sox are heavy into the running for Grienke but would have to deal players from the ML Roster. Does imply that the players considered for the deal would be from "other areas" of the team.

I read that to mean not the rotation, and thus not Quintana, but what do I know?

Link (http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jon-heyman/19670353/white-sox-trying-hard-for-greinke-they-can-do-a-deal----if-theyll-give-up-big-leaguer)

Please not Viciedo

Without being biased towards my favorite baseball player on the team, I completely agree and think that would be a horrible move. Viciedo is a growing talent that would have better number if put into a power position. It could be de aza because of danks in the back up role though.

guillensdisciple
07-27-2012, 04:42 PM
Also, while he has not had a great year this year, I would make a deal for joe Johnson before I make a deal for greinke.

sullythered
07-27-2012, 04:45 PM
Please not Viciedo

No way Kenny is dumb enough to do something like that. Viciedo might be the centerpiece in a deal for Greinke, if Greinke had about 3 more years on his deal.

sullythered
07-27-2012, 04:46 PM
Also, while he has not had a great year this year, I would make a deal for joe Johnson before I make a deal for greinke.

I don't want an aging shooting guard on the White Sox. Plus, I don't think the Nets are interested in moving him.

SoxSpeed22
07-27-2012, 04:50 PM
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jon-heyman/19670353/white-sox-trying-hard-for-greinke-they-can-do-a-deal----if-theyll-give-up-big-leaguer
Would a Quintana, Nate Jones and Jared Mitchell package do the job?

DSpivack
07-27-2012, 04:52 PM
Also, while he has not had a great year this year, I would make a deal for joe Johnson before I make a deal for greinke.

Who? :scratch:

No way Kenny is dumb enough to do something like that. Viciedo might be the centerpiece in a deal for Greinke, if Greinke had about 3 more years on his deal.

It's not like Viciedo alone is enough to get Greinke, anyway. Guys hitting .262/.299/.454 don't have that much value; and this season isn't a fluke, his career numbers are right around there. I'm not even sure the Brewers would want Viciedo, as Ryan Braun is in LF, though maybe they'd move Dayan back to RF. He's not a big upgrade on Norichika Aoki, although he would be an inexpensive, team-controlled player for quite a few years to come.

guillensdisciple
07-27-2012, 04:58 PM
I meant josh- Jesus.

DSpivack
07-27-2012, 04:59 PM
I meant josh- Jesus.

There are conflicting reports on whether the Marlins are trading him or not. They're asking for arm and a leg, supposedly; top prospects that the Sox don't have. Given that he's signed through 2013, if he is traded he would probably cost more than Greinke. But he's also seemingly constantly injured.

doublem23
07-27-2012, 05:04 PM
Some (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=129216&highlight=Could+you+manage+better+than+ozzie%3F) would disagree with you.

http://a.espncdn.com/media/mlb/2005/1026/photo/g_guillen_275.jpg

delben91
07-27-2012, 05:06 PM
http://a.espncdn.com/media/mlb/2005/1026/photo/g_guillen_275.jpg

:rolling:

Well done.

guillensdisciple
07-27-2012, 05:21 PM
There are conflicting reports on whether the Marlins are trading him or not. They're asking for arm and a leg, supposedly; top prospects that the Sox don't have. Given that he's signed through 2013, if he is traded he would probably cost more than Greinke. But he's also seemingly constantly injured.

Ehh, i'd risk it. Guy is ridiculously talented.

sullythered
07-27-2012, 05:25 PM
Ehh, i'd risk it. Guy is ridiculously talented.

Which is why the Marlins are reportedly asking for "a ton" in return.

sullythered
07-27-2012, 05:26 PM
I meant josh- Jesus.

I know. I was making a joke. Jesus.

PalehosePlanet
07-27-2012, 05:28 PM
Who? :scratch:



It's not like Viciedo alone is enough to get Greinke, anyway. Guys hitting .262/.299/.454 don't have that much value; and this season isn't a fluke, his career numbers are right around there. I'm not even sure the Brewers would want Viciedo, as Ryan Braun is in LF, though maybe they'd move Dayan back to RF. He's not a big upgrade on Norichika Aoki, although he would be an inexpensive, team-controlled player for quite a few years to come.

Seriously? You're mentioning "career numbers" when talking about a 23 year old in his first full major league season? Viciedo would definitely be enough to land Greinke all by himself.

I personally hope KW isn't so shortsighted to make a move like that.

PalehosePlanet
07-27-2012, 05:31 PM
Ehh, i'd risk it. Guy is ridiculously talented.

This is his first year back after Tommy John surgery, that's why he's struggled. He won't be himself again until next year. That wouldn't help us down the stretch this year.

DSpivack
07-27-2012, 05:32 PM
Seriously? You're mentioning "career numbers" when talking about a 23 year old in his first full major league season? Viciedo would definitely be enough to land Greinke all by himself.

I personally hope KW isn't so shortsighted to make a move like that.

I don't see any reason to think that, unless you think Viciedo is a top prospect, which he is not. He's a slugger who doesn't hit for average and never walks. I don't think he has that much value, not enough to get an ace in return by himself.

That doesn't mean I want to see him traded for a 2-month rental, however.

sullythered
07-27-2012, 05:33 PM
Who? :scratch:



It's not like Viciedo alone is enough to get Greinke, anyway. Guys hitting .262/.299/.454 don't have that much value; and this season isn't a fluke, his career numbers are right around there. I'm not even sure the Brewers would want Viciedo, as Ryan Braun is in LF, though maybe they'd move Dayan back to RF. He's not a big upgrade on Norichika Aoki, although he would be an inexpensive, team-controlled player for quite a few years to come.

Wut. You're kidding, right? You think that a 23 year old who has shown a ton of power, and improved consistently as he has moved up the ranks from A ball to the majors, where he currently has 15 homers, is similar in value to a 30 year old corner outfielder with no power?

DSpivack
07-27-2012, 05:35 PM
Wut. You're kidding, right? You think that a 23 year old who has shown a ton of power, and improved consistently as he has moved up the ranks from A ball to the majors, where he currently has 15 homers, is similar in value to a 30 year old corner outfielder with no power?

I see one player hitting .262/.299/.454, and another hitting .277/.350/.414.

delben91
07-27-2012, 05:38 PM
I see one player hitting .262/.299/.454, and another hitting .277/.350/.414.

Aoki is 30 and Viciedo is 23 though, so I could definitely see an argument that Viciedo has more upside. Does that entice Milwaukee...who knows?

guillensdisciple
07-27-2012, 05:38 PM
I know. I was making a joke. Jesus.

I was not mad at you man hahah

That was me saying Jesus to myself.

I can find the funny in making mistakes don't worry about it.

doublem23
07-27-2012, 05:39 PM
I see one player hitting .262/.299/.454, and another hitting .277/.350/.414.

One is 23 and one is 30. Big diff.

sullythered
07-27-2012, 05:39 PM
I don't see any reason to think that, unless you think Viciedo is a top prospect, which he is not. He's a slugger who doesn't hit for average and never walks. I don't think he has that much value, not enough to get an ace in return by himself.

That doesn't mean I want to see him traded for a 2-month rental, however.

In his first full season in the majors, Viciedo is performing on par with Carlos Lee's first full year, and outperforming Magglio Ordonez's first full season. And he's younger than they were. How did those guys work out, as hitters?

sullythered
07-27-2012, 05:40 PM
I see one player hitting .262/.299/.454, and another hitting .277/.350/.414.

Way to drill down there, buddy.

sullythered
07-27-2012, 05:41 PM
i was not mad at you man hahah

that was me saying jesus to myself.

I can find the funny in making mistakes don't worry about it.

Got it. I shouldn't have been smarmy about it.

DSpivack
07-27-2012, 05:41 PM
Aoki is 30 and Viciedo is 23 though, so I could definitely see an argument that Viciedo has more upside. Does that entice Milwaukee...who knows?

One is 23 and one is 30. Big diff.

Right, and even a 30-year old with little power doesn't have numbers that much different from a 23-year old with a lot of power. If Viciedo wants to be anything more than mediocre, he either has to start walking or hitting for a consistently high average. I have yet to see either happen, though I certainly hope it does.

That it said, I don't see Viciedo alone as being nearly enough to trade for an ace, even if it's just a rental.

guillensdisciple
07-27-2012, 05:43 PM
Right, and even a 30-year old with little power doesn't have numbers that much different from a 23-year old with a lot of power. If Viciedo wants to be anything more than mediocre, he either has to start walking or hitting for a consistently high average. I have yet to see either happen, though I certainly hope it does.

That it said, I don't see Viciedo alone as being nearly enough to trade for an ace, even if it's just a rental.

Right, except everything you said has room for improvement because he IS 23.

Hitmen77
07-27-2012, 05:44 PM
Please not Viciedo

As much as I'd love to add Greinke, I doubt KW would take such a big bat out of our lineup to get him.

DSpivack
07-27-2012, 05:45 PM
In his first full season in the majors, Viciedo is performing on par with Carlos Lee's first full year, and outperforming Magglio Ordonez's first full season. And he's younger than they were. How did those guys work out, as hitters?

I don't think he necessarily on par with those two, his numbers are definitely not quite as good as either Maggs or El Caballo in their first full seasons; both of them hit for higher averages (and thus, got on base quite a bit more). Another player who had numbers quite similar to Viciedo's in his first full season was Jeff Francouer.

DSpivack
07-27-2012, 05:50 PM
Right, except everything you said has room for improvement because he IS 23.

I certainly hope he does, I just don't know how likely it is that he ends up much better than his current numbers reflect.

As much as I'd love to add Greinke, I doubt KW would take such a big bat out of our lineup to get him.

I agree. Maybe they could add Corey Hart to the deal, though I don't know if the Brewers would agree to that (or if the White Sox would want another expensive contract, even if it's only through 2013).

sullythered
07-27-2012, 05:52 PM
I don't think he necessarily on par with those two, his numbers are definitely not quite as good as either Maggs or El Caballo in their first full seasons; both of them hit for higher averages (and thus, got on base quite a bit more). Another player who had numbers quite similar to Viciedo's in his first full season was Jeff Francouer.

Magglio's OPS in his first full season: .741. Viciedo, so far: .753.

central44
07-27-2012, 05:59 PM
Right, except everything you said has room for improvement because he IS 23.

23 with enormous potential. There's a chance he's only scratched the surface of what he can become.

No way do I trade Viciedo for a two-month rental.

DSpivack
07-27-2012, 06:11 PM
Magglio's OPS in his first full season: .741. Viciedo, so far: .753.

Viciedo has hit for a bit more power than Maggs did in his first season. Often for young hitters, power develops with experience and age. Maggs hit .282/.326/.415. Viciedo is hitting .262/.299, but slugging .454. While the higher slugging percentage is nice, that low OBP (and almost complete inability to draw a walk) is worrisome. He did show that in AAA last season, so hopefully that changes going forward.

delben91
07-27-2012, 06:21 PM
https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2235340165/fanatic_normal.jpg Ken RosenthalVerified ‏@Ken_Rosenthal (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal)2m (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/228992838870904832)
BREAKING: #Angels (https://twitter.com/search/%23Angels) close to acquiring Zack Greinke from #Brewers (https://twitter.com/search/%23Brewers), sources tell me and @jonmorosi (https://twitter.com/jonmorosi).

guillensdisciple
07-27-2012, 06:24 PM
Ken RosenthalVerified ‏@Ken_Rosenthal (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal)2m (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/228992838870904832)
BREAKING: #Angels (https://twitter.com/search/%23Angels) close to acquiring Zack Greinke from #Brewers (https://twitter.com/search/%23Brewers), sources tell me and @jonmorosi (https://twitter.com/jonmorosi).

Well, that is that.

delben91
07-27-2012, 06:26 PM
https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2235340165/fanatic_normal.jpg Ken RosenthalVerified ‏@Ken_Rosenthal (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal)4m (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/228993520344629248)

#Brewers (https://twitter.com/search/%23Brewers) getting shortstop Jean Segura and two Double A pitchers from #Angels (https://twitter.com/search/%23Angels) for Greinke. "Finishing touches" being applied. Deal is done.

PalehosePlanet
07-27-2012, 06:27 PM
https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2235340165/fanatic_normal.jpg Ken RosenthalVerified ‏@Ken_Rosenthal (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal)2m (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/228992838870904832)
BREAKING: #Angels (https://twitter.com/search/%23Angels) close to acquiring Zack Greinke from #Brewers (https://twitter.com/search/%23Brewers), sources tell me and @jonmorosi (https://twitter.com/jonmorosi).

Very weird, I can't remember the last time The Halos ever dealt away a prospect. Stoneman and Reagins never did; even the mighty Reggie Willits couldn't be pried out of their dead hands.

SoxFanCPA
07-27-2012, 06:35 PM
https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2235340165/fanatic_normal.jpg Ken RosenthalVerified ‏@Ken_Rosenthal (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal)4m (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/228993520344629248)

#Brewers (https://twitter.com/search/%23Brewers) getting shortstop Jean Segura and two Double A pitchers from #Angels (https://twitter.com/search/%23Angels) for Greinke. "Finishing touches" being applied. Deal is done.

Ummm...what?

Danielgosox38
07-27-2012, 07:10 PM
I hope KW has some sort of backup plan. If we had to give up Quintana or Viciedo though, then I understand why he didn't do that.

Brian26
07-27-2012, 07:32 PM
Case Closed.