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FoulTerritory
06-26-2012, 10:31 AM
My opinion: move Dunn down in the order and put Rios in the 3 spot.

Reasoning: Dunn is now striking out at a rate on pace to obliterate the previous single-season record, and in the 3 hole he is regularly coming up with a chance to move/score a runner by merely putting the ball in play. His outs are almost entirely non-productive.

Furthermore, the excessive amount of strikeouts is dragging down his previously solid OBP, so I think the argument about keeping his walks in the 3 spot is losing validity.

tstrike2000
06-26-2012, 10:46 AM
My opinion: move Dunn down in the order and put Rios in the 3 spot.

Reasoning: Dunn is now striking out at a rate on pace to obliterate the previous single-season record, and in the 3 hole he is regularly coming up with a chance to move/score a runner by merely putting the ball in play. His outs are almost entirely non-productive.

Furthermore, the excessive amount of strikeouts is dragging down his previously solid OBP, so I think the argument about keeping his walks in the 3 spot is losing validity.

I'm sure Robin and the coaching staff are monitoring that closely. It's a tale of two Adam's. His average and K rate can be alarming, but everything else is on par with his career numbers. If he gets into a power slump and/or his average starts to dip around or below the Mendoza line, then a change is obviously possible.

ChiTownTrojan
06-26-2012, 10:48 AM
I'd agree, except that Rios is a bit of a head case and I'd rather he not have the pressure on him that comes with the 3 spot. If it works then it's a better overall lineup, but there's the risk of messing up both players.

FoulTerritory
06-26-2012, 10:50 AM
I'd agree, except that Rios is a bit of a head case and I'd rather he not have the pressure on him that comes with the 3 spot. If it works then it's a better overall lineup, but there's the risk of messing up both players.


I do agree with your concern about Rios. I wonder if AJ is also a viable possibility for the 3 hole?

ChiTownTrojan
06-26-2012, 11:03 AM
I do agree with your concern about Rios. I wonder if AJ is also a viable possibility for the 3 hole?

I've never understood why Konerko isn't hitting 3rd. I always thought you put your best overall hitter 3rd, and your best pure power hitter 4th. That would be Konerko 3rd, Dunn 4th. I suppose the logic is that there is a greater potential for an even bigger inning if Dunn takes a walk and Paulie is up with men on base, but the same could be said if Paulie gets on and Dunn hits a HR.

If Youkilis can turn his season around and begins to hit like he did a couple years ago, he's another viable option (w/ Beckham moving back to #2), but let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

TheOldRoman
06-26-2012, 11:14 AM
I'm sure Robin and the coaching staff are monitoring that closely. It's a tale of two Adam's. His average and K rate can be alarming, but everything else is on par with his career numbers. If he gets into a power slump and/or his average starts to dip around or below the Mendoza line, then a change is obviously possible..212/.358 for the season and .169/.309 in June, albeit with 7 homers. He is 5 for 39 over the last two weeks.

I've never understood why Konerko isn't hitting 3rd. I always thought you put your best overall hitter 3rd, and your best pure power hitter 4th. That would be Konerko 3rd, Dunn 4th. I suppose the logic is that there is a greater potential for an even bigger inning if Dunn takes a walk and Paulie is up with men on base, but the same could be said if Paulie gets on and Dunn hits a HR.Well, Konerko has been terrible this month. Aside from that, he has always been more comfortable hitting 4th. I think one of the reasons Dunn hit 3rd all year is because they felt he would get better pitches with Konerko waiting on deck. He was doing his job when Konerko was hitting well. However, since Konerko has stopped performing, Dunn has fallen off a cliff.

And I agree that if Youkilis can somehow become the Youkilis of 2008-2010, he should be batting 3rd.

pythons007
06-26-2012, 12:01 PM
Robin is going with the L R L R L R approach. I guarantee if the Sox had a leadoff man that hit right handed, you'd see Paulie 3rd and Dunn 4th.

kobo
06-26-2012, 12:08 PM
Robin is going with the L R L R L R approach. I guarantee if the Sox had a leadoff man that hit right handed, you'd see Paulie 3rd and Dunn 4th.
That approach is for the first 4 batters in the lineup: DeAza, Youk, Dunn, Konerko. Rios(R) bats 5th and AJ(L) 6th and then the bottom 3 are all RH.

Dunn is in a funk right now and looks as bad as he did all of last year. Swinging at bad pitches, looking at good pitches, he's all messed up right now. I can tolerate the K's when he is getting the occasional hit/homerun and drawing walks, but the last 2 weeks he's been dreadful.

hawkjt
06-26-2012, 12:27 PM
This last stretch by Dunn(2 of 28 with 18 strikeouts) is very similar to all of last year. I vote to give him a day off the next time a lefty is starting on the mound. Let Youk or PK DH with the other on first,and Escobar hitting and playing 3rd.

Escobar has one of the only true clutch hits the last two weeks,and he sits,probably for a week.

Adele_H
06-26-2012, 01:22 PM
My opinion: move Dunn down in the order and put Rios in the 3 spot.

Reasoning: Dunn is now striking out at a rate on pace to obliterate the previous single-season record, and in the 3 hole he is regularly coming up with a chance to move/score a runner by merely putting the ball in play. His outs are almost entirely non-productive.

Furthermore, the excessive amount of strikeouts is dragging down his previously solid OBP, so I think the argument about keeping his walks in the 3 spot is losing validity.

Dunn is scufflin, no doubt. I know he lost a week's worth of AB earlier this month to a flu, he played through it and was supposed to be better by now. He's put in so much effort & attention in the off-season trying to prove to the world he can still turn on a major-league fastball on the inner half of the plate -- which he has done OK with this year......while NEGLECTING the entire LF and LCF where he used to get a bunch of "cheap" HR. Same as Ryan Howard, Adrian Gonzalez in SD, Prince Fielder, the elite HR group at the time.

Now Dunn is just harmlessly hooking middle-away pitches into the exaggerated 3-man shift on the right side of the infield..... I don't think being a pull-meitser HR like Konerko will work for Dunn in the longer run, he needs to make an adjustment & utilize the g-d given monster strength of his better.

Should he be moved down? Probably, but in front of struggling AJP and Beckham, he will not see the quality pitches that he sees in front of Konerko/Rios. That's the downside. Give it another week, then maybe pull the trigger.

DickAllen72
06-26-2012, 04:49 PM
My opinion: move Dunn down in the order and put Rios in the 3 spot.

Reasoning: Dunn is now striking out at a rate on pace to obliterate the previous single-season record, and in the 3 hole he is regularly coming up with a chance to move/score a runner by merely putting the ball in play. His outs are almost entirely non-productive.

Furthermore, the excessive amount of strikeouts is dragging down his previously solid OBP, so I think the argument about keeping his walks in the 3 spot is losing validity.
I agree.

kufram
06-26-2012, 05:29 PM
Robin, so far, has shown a tendency to give the players time to work through their problems at the plate and it has had some success.... with Beckham and Viciedo as 2 examples early in the season. Bouncing guys around the lineup because of a bad spell can just be chasing your tail and there is no shortage of hitters going through a bad patch. These guys are going to have to play themselves back into production.

Dan H
06-26-2012, 05:41 PM
I've never understood why Konerko isn't hitting 3rd. I always thought you put your best overall hitter 3rd, and your best pure power hitter 4th. That would be Konerko 3rd, Dunn 4th. I suppose the logic is that there is a greater potential for an even bigger inning if Dunn takes a walk and Paulie is up with men on base, but the same could be said if Paulie gets on and Dunn hits a HR.

If Youkilis can turn his season around and begins to hit like he did a couple years ago, he's another viable option (w/ Beckham moving back to #2), but let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

I agree with your logic about the third spot and am convinced Dunn doesn't belong there. The trouble is Konerko doesn't belong there right now, either.

I have no way of knowing how bad Konerko's wrist injury is. However, I do remember 2008 when he had his bad thumb and his average dropped under .200 at the beginning of August. Some of those at-bats were pathetic and he was costing his team when he failed in some clutch situations. I hope the White Sox and Konerko are being realistic about this injury. Hitting when a player needs time to heal only invites prolonged bad results.

FoulTerritory
06-26-2012, 10:56 PM
Robin, so far, has shown a tendency to give the players time to work through their problems at the plate and it has had some success.... with Beckham and Viciedo as 2 examples early in the season. Bouncing guys around the lineup because of a bad spell can just be chasing your tail and there is no shortage of hitters going through a bad patch. These guys are going to have to play themselves back into production.

I'm generally no fan of tinkering either, but I think Dunn's current unfathomable strike-out rate is one of those scenarios that warrants a lineup change. Robin doesn't have to shake up the whole lineup. Perhaps the wisest move would be to just swap Dunn with whoever he would choose to move to the 3 spot. You can leave everyone else in place as far as I'm concerned.

shes
06-27-2012, 08:50 PM
I'm generally no fan of tinkering either, but I think Dunn's current unfathomable strike-out rate is one of those scenarios that warrants a lineup change. Robin doesn't have to shake up the whole lineup. Perhaps the wisest move would be to just swap Dunn with whoever he would choose to move to the 3 spot. You can leave everyone else in place as far as I'm concerned.

While I understand the reasoning, I would be careful to tinker too much with Dunn given how poorly he responded last year to being shifted around. Sort of like handling old dynamite. Unless he stops hitting homers and walking, leave him be.

Tragg
06-27-2012, 08:57 PM
Move Dunn down, move Youkalis to 3 and Beckham back to 2.

CWSpalehoseCWS
06-27-2012, 09:10 PM
Move Dunn down, move Youkalis to 3 and Beckham back to 2.

De Aza, Beckham, Youkilis, Konerko, Dunn, Rios, Pierzynski, Viciedo, Ramirez

I'd be very happy with this.

FoulTerritory
06-27-2012, 09:28 PM
De Aza, Beckham, Youkilis, Konerko, Dunn, Rios, Pierzynski, Viciedo, Ramirez

I'd be very happy with this.

Yup. Despite today's output by Dunn, I'd still move him down a couple slots. I think the lineup you have posited is ideal.

JB98
06-27-2012, 09:36 PM
I figured we'd get a breakout game from Dunn before this Twins series was over. Both Hendriks and Blackburn were favorable matchups for him. It didn't work out against Hendriks last night, but he got all of that pitch from Bye Bye Blackburn in the fifth today. That was a big two-out hit. It blew the game wide open.

FoulTerritory
06-27-2012, 09:43 PM
I figured we'd get a breakout game from Dunn before this Twins series was over. Both Hendriks and Blackburn were favorable matchups for him. It didn't work out against Hendriks last night, but he got all of that pitch from Bye Bye Blackburn in the fifth today. That was a big two-out hit. It blew the game wide open.

Yeah, I particularly like that he went oppo with that ball. Dunn had been in a full pull mode lately which was contributing to his funk.

In April it seemed like he was hitting the ball the other way quite a bit, which to me reflects a different approach than we saw from him last year. And any approach that is different than last year is fine by me.

FoulTerritory
06-30-2012, 02:12 PM
Watching the game on the YES feed . . . Lou Pinella was asked if Adam Dunn is the type of player would covet. He said, yes, he has value, but he shouldn't be a 3 hitter with all those strikeouts . . . but he'd be more of an asset in perhaps the 6 hole.

JB98
06-30-2012, 02:19 PM
Watching the game on the YES feed . . . Lou Pinella was asked if Adam Dunn is the type of player would covet. He said, yes, he has value, but he shouldn't be a 3 hitter with all those strikeouts . . . but he'd be more of an asset in perhaps the 6 hole.

Piniella is the same guy who batted Soriano in the leadoff spot 300 times from 2007-09.

LITTLE NELL
06-30-2012, 02:38 PM
I have to agree with Lou on this one, your best hitter should be batting 3rd, in this case right now it would be Rios because I like PK batting 4th and driving in runs.

balke
06-30-2012, 02:53 PM
I like getting as many pitches tacked on to the opposing starter early. DeAza/Youk/Dunn is doing that. Dunn leads the league in walks and HR, he either hits a hr or gets on base for PK to do the same.

It ain't broke, don't fix it.

FoulTerritory
06-30-2012, 04:05 PM
I like getting as many pitches tacked on to the opposing starter early. DeAza/Youk/Dunn is doing that. Dunn leads the league in walks and HR, he either hits a hr or gets on base for PK to do the same.

It ain't broke, don't fix it.

But sometimes things that aren't broke can still run with higher efficiency.

Yes, he walks a lot. But there are so many instances where the #3 hitter comes up and a productive out (move/score a runner) is very beneficial.

YES network showed a graphic that 56% of Dunn's outs are not put in play. That is a lot, maybe more than anyone in the history of baseball.

I just think you maximize his value and the lineup's efficiency if the more versatile hitting Rios is in the 3 hole -- which in theory is the most valuable spot in the lineup.

JB98
06-30-2012, 04:22 PM
But sometimes things that aren't broke can still run with higher efficiency.

Yes, he walks a lot. But there are so many instances where the #3 hitter comes up and a productive out (move/score a runner) is very beneficial.

YES network showed a graphic that 56% of Dunn's outs are not put in play. That is a lot, maybe more than anyone in the history of baseball.

I just think you maximize his value and the lineup's efficiency if the more versatile hitting Rios is in the 3 hole -- which in theory is the most valuable spot in the lineup.

Better that than a bunch of GIDPs.

delben91
06-30-2012, 04:24 PM
If only all us WSI posters could be the GM and manager by committee, Sox would go 162-0!

LITTLE NELL
06-30-2012, 04:44 PM
Better that than a bunch of GIDPs.

A potential DP ball can turn into a big error like on Thursday night which helped us win the game. A strikeout has no redeeming value at all.

JB98
06-30-2012, 05:17 PM
A potential DP ball can turn into a big error like on Thursday night which helped us win the game. A strikeout has no redeeming value at all.

That's going to happen a very small percentage of the time at the big-league level, though.

The strikeouts just don't bother me. Even though the K rate is up for the Sox this year, runs scored and batting average with RISP are also up.

This season, the Sox are batting .296 with an .820 OPS with runners in scoring position. They have grounded into only 13 DPs in those situations.

Last season, the Sox batted .239 with a .697 OPS with RISP. They grounded into 40 DPs.

This year's offensive philosophy no doubt produces more strikeouts. It also produces more runs and fewer rally-killing outs.