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hawkjt
06-24-2012, 12:00 PM
has been a definite bright spot this year.

Looking at Baseball Reference defensive stats, it seems like the Sox might just have the best defensive outfield in the AL so far.

Rios- clearly the best defensive rightfielder in the league by the numbers,and probably the best defensive outfielder in the league overall.
Great comeback by Alex from last years disappointment in center.

DeAza- by the numbers, 3rd best defensive centerfielder in the league...great debut.

Viciedo- by the numbers, 3rd best defensive leftfielder in the league...another great debut for a guy who some fans had great concern about defensively.

This could be one of the best Sox outfields,defensively, in awhile. In 2005 we had Pods out there,and his arm was not good. When we had Carlos Lee out in left he was ok,but not as good as Dayan. Juan Pierre had a bad arm. In 2000, Maggs and Carlos were ok,but not as good as Rios and Dayan.
Not sure who gets the credit for coaching the outfield(Harold?), but they have done a good job of getting these guys settled in,as they are all newcomers at their positions this year.

RowanDye
06-24-2012, 02:18 PM
has been a definite bright spot this year.

Looking at Baseball Reference defensive stats, it seems like the Sox might just have the best defensive outfield in the AL so far.

Rios- clearly the best defensive rightfielder in the league by the numbers,and probably the best defensive outfielder in the league overall.
Great comeback by Alex from last years disappointment in center.

DeAza- by the numbers, 3rd best defensive centerfielder in the league...great debut.

Viciedo- by the numbers, 3rd best defensive leftfielder in the league...another great debut for a guy who some fans had great concern about defensively.

This could be one of the best Sox outfields,defensively, in awhile. In 2005 we had Pods out there,and his arm was not good. When we had Carlos Lee out in left he was ok,but not as good as Dayan. Juan Pierre had a bad arm. In 2000, Maggs and Carlos were ok,but not as good as Rios and Dayan.
Not sure who gets the credit for coaching the outfield(Harold?), but they have done a good job of getting these guys settled in,as they are all newcomers at their positions this year.

Prescient thread after that catch by Rios to save 2(?) runs.

Was Carlos Lee really above average? Also, didn't Pierre have a pretty good season playing LF in 2010?

hawkjt
06-24-2012, 05:31 PM
Juan did have good defensive WAR rating in 2010...best in the AL I believe, but his arm was still not strong. I liked him,but I think Dayan is better.

And yes, Alex showed again today why he might be the best defensive outfielder in the league. What a catch! And nice relay to Gordo to nail the guy at third. Plays like this won the game today.
I am straining to remember a better rightfielder for the Sox defensively,maybe Harold Baines?

It is a solid outfield overall,and offensively,not bad either...not Texas or Angel like,but not bad.

CoopaLoop
06-24-2012, 05:40 PM
Surprised Viciedo is ranked that high. He has come a long way from the first time I saw him in left, but I figured he was a middle of the pack left outfielder.

Kub_Killer_15
06-24-2012, 10:42 PM
Juan did have good defensive WAR rating in 2010...best in the AL I believe, but his arm was still not strong. I liked him,but I think Dayan is better.

And yes, Alex showed again today why he might be the best defensive outfielder in the league. What a catch! And nice relay to Gordo to nail the guy at third. Plays like this won the game today.
I am straining to remember a better rightfielder for the Sox defensively,maybe Harold Baines?

It is a solid outfield overall,and offensively,not bad either...not Texas or Angel like,but not bad.

My vote goes to spiderman MVPJD

Daver
06-24-2012, 10:44 PM
Surprised Viciedo is ranked that high. He has come a long way from the first time I saw him in left, but I figured he was a middle of the pack left outfielder.

It's based strictly on defensive stats, so it's basically a worthless ranking.

mzh
06-24-2012, 11:23 PM
It's based strictly on defensive stats, so it's basically a worthless ranking.
Come now. You've spent the last two years harping on how Viciedo is worthless because he can't play defense. Defensive stats can be misleading, but I don't think its a stretch saying he's been better in left field than anything we've seen since at least pre-Caballo.

Daver
06-24-2012, 11:32 PM
Come now. You've spent the last two years harping on how Viciedo is worthless because he can't play defense. Defensive stats can be misleading, but I don't think its a stretch saying he's been better in left field than anything we've seen since at least pre-Caballo.

Where in my simple statement did I in any way infer that I have not been pleasantly surprised by the effort Viciedo has given defensively this year?

You take a poll of scouts and Dayan is not going to be ranked as the third best defensive LF in MLB.

CoopaLoop
06-24-2012, 11:35 PM
It's based strictly on defensive stats, so it's basically a worthless ranking.

I have yet to find a defensive stat I really believe in. You strictly an eye test guy when it comes to that?

Adele_H
06-24-2012, 11:45 PM
It's based strictly on defensive stats, so it's basically a worthless ranking.

Ding, ding, McDing.

(Daver, whaddup playa, how U b?)

Defensive metrics are still in relative infancy. Not totally useless, mind you, but def flawed. Still remember when UZR had Nick Swisher like the best defensive CF in 2008 at one point, Lulz. Last time I checked, Swish Nickowiak could barely handle RF.

Alex Rios in 2010 likewise had like the best statistical year of all time in CF -- yes ahead of Willie Mays, accodring to UZR. Uh, except, Rios was terrible in 2010 to anyone who watched more than 5 minutes of his circuitous routes; his snail pace-speed "gliding" as soft gapper after gapper just got out of his reach; his general avoidance of the wall at all costs; and those side-arm throws that reliably tailed off like 10 feet away from intended targets. At times looking downright disinterested. Must have been a different Rios......

Rios has been having a pretty good year in RF in 2012, though. But that's probably more to do with the fact that he worked his ass off thjis past off-season to make that happen, and it IS his natural position, afterall...

Viciedo as a LF.... is a good HR hitter, let's put it that way. Strong arm, though, which is refreshing after Scotty Pods/Juan Pierre experience....

Hey look at the bright side, Viciedo is not playing 3B. KW reportedly brought up the possibility of switching Dayan back to 3rd -- and it was overruled by coaching staff in 3 nano-seconds flat! LMAO.

De Aza for every good play he's made, there are probably 2 that he misplayed like that "triple" in Texas or the pop up turned double in Chris Sale first start against Detroit. Bad angle at DeJesus single that ended up as lead-off double, just this homestand. Few more just off top my head-- I've missed most games, actually. It's Ok he's learning. Unlike Viciedo whose upside is mediocre LF, De Aza may turn out to be good in CF.

Jordan Danks is supposed to be outstanding in CF according to Buddy Bell. Don't know if that's true or not, but his read and mistimed dive in LF last Sunday in LA doesn't inspire confidence. I know 1 play. "I'll believe it when I see it", is generally a good attitude to have with organizational spin.

Adele_H
06-25-2012, 12:19 AM
I have yet to find a defensive stat I really believe in. You strictly an eye test guy when it comes to that?

As those of us reared overseas on soccer, basketball, etc......Eye test always takes precedence, although ideally it should complement stats, not cancel them outright....

Baseball being a peculiar, highly-structured, match-up based stat-oriented game where role of random luck is greater.... numbers do get greater emphasis.

But as others mentioned, DEFENSIVE stats are lagging behind pitching or offensive ones in both validity and reliability -- if only because defense in baseball, unlike soccer or basketball where it's full 50% value, has less importance/impact on the game than hitting or pitching do. In particular pitching since pitchers have greater personal control over the action than fielders do by initiating said action.

Honestly, you can take all stats away -- I'll still know that Konerko and Sale are really good, while Brent Morel and Zach Stewart are really bad. It's an acquired habit, just a different way of looking at and processing the game.

hawkjt
06-25-2012, 12:20 AM
Rios was good in center in 2010, but was bad in 2011.
Cannot explain why he dropped off so precipitously,but he did.
However,he was solid in 2010. You must be confused.

Adele_H
06-25-2012, 12:29 AM
Rios was good in center in 2010, but was bad in 2011.
Cannot explain why he dropped off so precipitously,but he did.
However,he was solid in 2010. You must be confused.

Maybe.

Or... maybe UZR really IS unreliable trash, and that his bizarre severe drop-off from 2010 to 2011 is yet another testament to its absurdity. Which would perfectly match the empirical evidence, eye test and what not.

To-may-to. To-mah-to.

Daver
06-25-2012, 12:34 AM
As those of us reared overseas on soccer, basketball, etc......Eye test always takes precedence, although ideally it should complement stats, not cancel them outright....

Baseball being a peculiar, highly-structured, match-up based stat-oriented game where role of random luck is greater.... numbers do get greater emphasis.

But as others mentioned, DEFENSIVE stats are lagging behind pitching or offensive ones in both validity and reliability -- if only because defense in baseball, unlike soccer or basketball where it's full 50% value, has less importance/impact on the game than hitting or pitching do. In particular pitching since pitchers have greater personal control over the action than fielders do by initiating said action.

Honestly, you can take all stats away -- I'll still know that Konerko and Sale are really good, while Brent Morel and Zach Stewart are really bad. It's an acquired habit, just a different way of looking at and processing the game.

In the sports you mentioned the other team does not control the ball when you are on offense, it is one of the things that makes baseball unique.

Irishsox1
06-25-2012, 12:35 AM
Moving Rios to right field and De Aza in center has fixed a lot of the problems.

Adele_H
06-25-2012, 12:44 AM
In the sports you mentioned the other team does not control the ball when you are on offense, it is one of the things that makes baseball unique.

Yes, baseball is unique. Weird beautiful little game. Most of my childhood friends -- we're talking half-dozen different countries here -- hate it or totally indifferent.

Original point was that defensive stats are overrated/overused. On one hand, I can understand why they are over used knowing baseball's unique history/culture/nature..... on the other hand, it still doesn't make gimmicky defensive stats any more valid or reliable in my book.

You obviously agree that Viciedo is FAR from an elite defensive LF. The man is an awkward statue. Losing weight, trying harder, getting more experience & coaching can only help so much.

Then again, should Viciedo hit 45 HR, 130 RBI couple of years from now -- this conversation is moot :)

TaylorStSox
06-25-2012, 12:46 AM
Rios' routes to balls he can't catch have been fun to watch. He's stopped a lot of balls that would be doubles. Viciedo takes some awkward routes, but makes a lot of tough catches for a guy with limited range and speed. Adele H was spot on with ADA.

hawkjt
06-25-2012, 12:59 AM
Tank has caught everything he has gotten to,and has thrown out some runners..he has been solid in left. He does not look fast,but he is quicker than he looks. DeAza covers a lot of ground and has been fine. Rios has been very good.
Adele admits to missing most of the games,so I will go with my eyes,which have seen all but one game this year.

Adele_H
07-01-2012, 03:49 PM
Unlike in CF, Rios is home in RF, though from what I've seen he's not been that amazing either. Just good. Why is that not enough for some homers?

Another problem that could account for such dissonance, I think defense in general, including OF is NOT judged as strictly as pitching or hitting. The standard for defense is lowered.

Think about it: a hitter can misjudge the pitch by few HUNDREDS of a second -- and he makes an out. A pitcher likewise, can error by just just a few millimeters in his release point -- and instead of a biting slider that normally strikes the batter out, it hangs over the heart of the plate, resulting in a HR.


Whereas, with fielders.... they can fall asleep. They can misread the sign from the bench and not align properly according to the hitter's tendencies. They can lose the ball in the stands, in high sky or in lights even with sunglasses. They be lazy and erroneously assume that their fellow teammate should make the catch, resulting in the ball dropping in between them.... They can break the wrong way. They can take a circuitous route. They can be slow as hell and simply not get to the ball that ordinarily they be able to get to. Or they can flat-out whiff on the line-drive......They can blow a tailor-made DP, only getting one out.....Throw to the wrong base. Not throw at all. Or otherwise INTENTIONALLY not aggressively charge a ball, in order to not risk making an error, even a the cost of a run scoring. Etc, etc, etc.

Noone remembers unless they really screw up to warrant an "error". So almost paradoxically, defense overall in baseball is less important than in other sports...in a sport that's ostensibly all about stats, defense doesn't lend itself to easy quantification.....also enjoying far greater benefit of the doubt on individual level. So the truly great defensive players are overlooked most of their excellence manifests itself in non-error plays.