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View Full Version : Durham dumped! Sox going backwards!


PaleHoseGeorge
07-25-2002, 07:01 PM
It's official. This ballclub is moving backwards. The "cash" part of this deal proves the point.

The Sox suck, and will be sucking more for the forseeable future.

Jerry Reinsdorf will be the death of this franchise.

Jerry_Manuel
07-25-2002, 07:08 PM
The cash is part of the plan!

See, they couldn't fire Manuel because they couldn't afford to pay the rest of his salary (fans fault). Now that they have the extra cash they can fire Manuel and crew, where they will then bring in a real manager.

:)

Soxheads
07-25-2002, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
It's official. This ballclub is moving backwards. The "cash" part of this deal proves the point.

The Sox suck, and will be sucking more for the forseeable future.

Jerry Reinsdorf will be the death of this franchise.

:reinsy
"I can't do this deal unless Oakland tosses in something to sweeten the pot. Cash sounds good!"


MLB.com makes it sound like Oakland is getting cash, but I couldn't believe that. :(:

PaleHoseGeorge
07-25-2002, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by Soxheads



MLB.com makes it sound like Oakland is getting cash, but I couldn't believe that. :(:

Omigod, you're right! We gave up an everyday secondbasemen for a AAA pitcher with a Ritchie-esque ERA. AND Kenny Williams agreed to pay the remainder of Durham's salary, too?

This is un-****ing believable!

The guy is a moron!

:KW
"Watch me chew gum and walk at the same time!"

LongDistanceFan
07-25-2002, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Omigod, you're right! We gave up an everyday secondbasemen for a AAA pitcher with a Ritchie-esque ERA. AND Kenny Williams agreed to pay the remainder of Durham's salary, too?

This is un-****ing believable!

The guy is a moron!


we gave them cash, i really can't believe this. man someone else must be involve in this, in the sox org, beside kw.

Jerry_Manuel
07-25-2002, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
This is un-****ing believable!


whitesox.com says:
The Oakland A's on Thursday bolstered their playoff run by acquiring two-time All-Star second baseman Ray Durham from the Chicago White Sox for minor-league pitcher Jon Adkins. The A's will also receive cash considerations.

SportsTicker says:
The White Sox on Thursday traded former All-Star second baseman Ray Durham to the Oakland Athletics for minor league righthander Jon Adkins and cash considerations.

AP says: (No mention of $$$)
Second baseman Ray Durham, the subject of several recent trade rumors, was finally dealt by the Chicago White Sox to the Oakland Athletics for a minor league pitcher Thursday.

dougs78
07-25-2002, 07:21 PM
Yes, all the sources are indicating that it is indeed the A's getting cash from us. I truly cannot understand that move. It would seem benefit of trading Ray would be to get rid of the rest of his salary...but instead we are paying for it??? What sense does this make?

The only reason for this trade then was to open a spot for Harris?? My god, if thats all it is, then why haven't we done that with Royce for Crede a long time ago??? I mean i'm sure we could get a team to take if we agreed to pay his salary...

:KW:

"Watch as I curry favor among the leagues GM. Soon they will all be indebted to me for giving them all our good players... ha ha ha...we'll see who laughs last when I call in my chips..."

Soxheads
07-25-2002, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Omigod, you're right! We gave up an everyday secondbasemen for a AAA pitcher with a Ritchie-esque ERA. AND Kenny Williams agreed to pay the remainder of Durham's salary, too?

This is un-****ing believable!

The guy is a moron!

:KW
"Watch me chew gum and walk at the same time!"

I would say that it's a good thing I'm observant, but I'm not so sure....

duke of dorwood
07-25-2002, 07:22 PM
WE PAID THEM?

Ever get the feeling WE will be the contracted team?

LongDistanceFan
07-25-2002, 07:23 PM
kw must be going on some show to justify this trade. i hope some sox fan get on and really ask him how and why of the trade?

duke of dorwood
07-25-2002, 07:25 PM
Why listen-Jiggets will just kiss his ass. He was already defending him.

HawkDJ
07-25-2002, 07:27 PM
Sportscenter said we got the cash.

Foulke You
07-25-2002, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
kw must be going on some show to justify this trade. i hope some sox fan get on and really ask him how and why of the trade?

I can hear KW now...

:KW
"Well, our scouts really liked Atkins arm and we felt we needed to make a move. Obviously we can't continue in this way and Ray was a player who we felt we had to move to take the next step. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH"


Ugh. This trade blows. 2000 seems like a lifetime ago. It is truly a dark time to be a Sox fan.

duke of dorwood
07-25-2002, 07:40 PM
:reinsy

Hey I really enjoyed the last few Bulls seasons, lets try it with the Sox

NUCatsFan
07-25-2002, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
kw must be going on some show to justify this trade. i hope some sox fan get on and really ask him how and why of the trade?

Not bloody likely. From the comments I've seen, Kenny fell in love with his arm. A Power pitcher, 94-96mph fastball. There are just so many words I could use here describing the trade, but none of them are positive.

I am now officially on the Fire KW bandwagon. It is absolutely impossible that this was the best deal we were offered.

doctor30th
07-25-2002, 07:41 PM
When I first looked at this trade I was like "what in the world is wrong with the White Sox Managment".

but then when you think about it, we were in a crappy position, the A's most likely offered us the best deal for Durham among all the teams. So not only do we get rid of Rays salary, we get a player (even if he is just a mediocre one) in return.

If we would have kept Ray the whole season, we would not have gotten any players and we would have had to pay the rest of his salary. It sucks, but I doubt th Braves, Dodgers, or Red Sox were offering much better, and with only 6 days til the deadline, I'm sure Williams exaughsted all of the avenues.

I'm betting Valentin will go next to a team like the Dodgers.

HawkDJ
07-25-2002, 07:41 PM
Hey at least this trade is better than not trading him at all. Willie Harris gets to play reguarly now for the first time in his career. We all know Ray wouldn't be here next year no matter what happened and now it gives Willie some more experience.

Plus in today's trade market, teams aren't willing to give up top prospects.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-25-2002, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


whitesox.com says:


SportsTicker says:


AP says: (No mention of $$$)


OMG, could it be another Berry/Barry screw-up by Lenny?

KW probably thought he was getting the cash, but the A's have the written agreement with their side getting the cash from the Sox!

LMAO! This deal has Kenny Williams' fingerprints all over it!!!!

Jerry_Manuel
07-25-2002, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
OMG, could it be another Berry/Barry screw-up by Lenny?

KW probably thought he was getting the cash, but the A's have the written agreement with their side getting the cash from the Sox!

LMAO! This deal has Kenny Williams' fingerprints all over it!!!!

I have to think the Sox are getting the cash. I don't see the chairman agreeing to pay his salary.

If this is another Berry/Barry mistake, he needs to be fired.

KingXerxes
07-25-2002, 07:46 PM
I would be surprised if the White Sox didn't pay Durham's salary for the remainder of the season - that seems to be what most of these teams are doing in order to get something for potential free agents. My bet is that Oakland probably agreed to some reduced amount, and Williams is spinning that as some sort of cash compensation to The White Sox. The guy is the least straightforward person I've ever seen in baseball - and that's saying something. I suspect that draft choices as compensation is going to go away.

By the way - I was out of town for the past couple of weeks, but they kept talking on Las Vegas sports radio about a couple of article in the Wall Street Journal which shed some serious light on the financial and debt-laden problems facing baseball. Has anybody out there read these, or have a link?

CubKilla
07-25-2002, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
When I first looked at this trade I was like "what in the world is wrong with the White Sox Managment".

but then when you think about it, we were in a crappy position, the A's most likely offered us the best deal for Durham among all the teams. So not only do we get rid of Rays salary, we get a player (even if he is just a mediocre one) in return.

If we would have kept Ray the whole season, we would not have gotten any players and we would have had to pay the rest of his salary. It sucks, but I doubt th Braves, Dodgers, or Red Sox were offering much better, and with only 6 days til the deadline, I'm sure Williams exaughsted all of the avenues.

I'm betting Valentin will go next to a team like the Dodgers.

Doubtful. From what I've heard on the SCORE, KW has had his eye on this guy for a while. Given his stats that I've heard, if this guy does have a high-90's fastball, it has NO MOVEMENT to it whatsoever. A caller on the SCORE said this guy has Ritchie-esque AAA stats. Oh the humanity!!!!!

duke of dorwood
07-25-2002, 07:49 PM
What?

:KW

Hey I trade prospects, but none of the other guys will play with me

duke of dorwood
07-25-2002, 07:50 PM
He had his eye on

:ritchie

too

doctor30th
07-25-2002, 07:50 PM
Ahh, your problem there is that you listen to the score. Whether he had his eye on him for a while or not, it is likely the best offer they got.

Procol Harum
07-25-2002, 07:52 PM
I'm surprised that everyone is so stunned at this trade. We ain't exactly got Branch Rickey workin' for us, here. What w/ the impending strike, the fact that the Sox were not going to re-sign Durham anyway, and the way that the Sox' leverage has absolutely disintegrated w/ our collapse--what were you expecting to get for Durham? One way or t'other he was gone. With all that under consideration, they were simply happy to get anything for him and only have to pay a portion of this year's remaining salary (those "cash considerations"). Whatever the case, there will probably be a few other moves along this line to lighten the Sox salary load.

As for losing Durham--not having his fielding inadequacies, short attention span, and stupidity at the plate and on the basepaths are not going to leave a gaping hole on THIS team. We sucked with Ray, and we can suck w/o him. Maybe we can even get one of our guys in the minors called up and start to make some sort of move to righting the S.S. White Sox. Of course our ultimate solution will not get underway until we jettison Manuel, fire KW, and put the pressure on to:

:sellreinsy

PaleHoseGeorge
07-25-2002, 07:59 PM
I hope to God this is another Berry/Barry screw up by Kenny. Please God, let there be confusion on the Sox' part over who owes who the cash!

If losing Ray Durham for nothing is the price we pay for getting that incompetent fool of a GM fired, then it will be well worth the price!

:KW
"I could have sworn Oakland was paying us!"

foulkesfan11
07-25-2002, 08:03 PM
KW is a MORON!!!


All we get for Ray is a AAA Pitcher & Cash!!! This sucks! :angry: :angry: :angry:

DonkeyKongerko
07-25-2002, 08:30 PM
ok ok so the ray durham era is over. i cant help but feel some what remissive. i have only been a hardcore sox fan for about the past 4 years. during those years ray durham has been one of the few players that i have seen "grow" in this organization.

i will miss the hawkerisms "look at the play by ray" and "...ray ray." well i had a point to this post and it is this: a lot of major league baseball teams would love a 2nd baseman like ray. he is usually a good OBP guy with more pop than most at his position. he would probably be the best 2nd baseman in the national league if he had gone there. oh well he's too expensive for our penny pinching uncle jerry. good bye ray durham. hello future

PaleHoseGeorge
07-25-2002, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I hope to God this is another Berry/Barry screw up by Kenny. Please God, let there be confusion on the Sox' part over who owes who the cash!

If losing Ray Durham for nothing is the price we pay for getting that incompetent fool of a GM fired, then it will be well worth the price!

Jimmy Greenfield at MLB.com has updated his story. He is still claiming the Sox OWE cash to Oakland, in addition to trading Durham.

God, I hope there is something to this.

Daver
07-25-2002, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Jimmy Greenfield at MLB.com has updated his story. He is still claiming the Sox OWE cash to Oakland, in addition to trading Durham.

God, I hope there is something to this.


Here you go. (http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/0725/1410102.html)

rmusacch
07-25-2002, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Omigod, you're right! We gave up an everyday secondbasemen for a AAA pitcher with a Ritchie-esque ERA. AND Kenny Williams agreed to pay the remainder of Durham's salary, too?

This is un-****ing believable!

The guy is a moron!

:KW
"Watch me chew gum and walk at the same time!"

Please tell me you are joking about paying the rest of his salary. Surely, that can't be true. I know they sent cash over but why would they trade him AND pay his whole freakin salary. Bah fungol.

Jerry_Manuel
07-25-2002, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch
Please tell me you are joking about paying the rest of his salary. Surely, that can't be true. I know they sent cash over but why would they trade him AND pay his whole freakin salary. Bah fungol.

Different sources are saying different things.

Sounds an awful lot like Berry/Barry to me.

Jerry_Manuel
07-25-2002, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Jimmy Greenfield at MLB.com has updated his story. He is still claiming the Sox OWE cash to Oakland, in addition to trading Durham.

God, I hope there is something to this.

The story at whitesox.com says 7:30 EST. I'm not sure what to think.

FJA
07-25-2002, 08:59 PM
This is a pathetic trade.

First of all, I know almost no one here is a Ray fan, but I've been wearing my Durham jersey since 1998. Yes, he has some defensive issues, but he's playing better than anyone on this sinking ship right now, and manages to put up solid offensive numbers every year. He is one of the best 2nd basemen you can find. Two-time all-star. Decent clubhouse guy.

I know he wasn't going to be here next year, but we OWE Oakland money (in addition to Durham) for a minor league pitcher?

This is almost as bad as trading three good arms for a guy who could screw up batting practice. KW has proven himself incompetent to run a pinto league organization, let alone an MLB team.

kermittheefrog
07-25-2002, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by HawkDJ2k2
Hey at least this trade is better than not trading him at all.


WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG

Not trading him at all would have been MUCH better. He most likely would be declared a type A free agent. We'd get the signing team's first round draft pick plus a compensation sandwich pick. Unless we have some sort of under the table agreement to bring Ray back (which would be sshweet as hell) this was a horrible deal.

Tragg
07-25-2002, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog



WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG

We'd get the signing team's first round draft pick plus a compensation sandwich pick.

So we could also describe this trade as a trade of 2 first round draft choices for a pitcher with a 6.00+ minor league ERA.

What a clever horsetrader we have in Kenny Williams.

idseer
07-25-2002, 11:07 PM
i think too big a deal is being made about this.

1st, why should oakland give much for a guy they'll get the use of for less than half season? they won't pay his demand next year either.

2nd, the teams that CAN afford to pay him will end up with a low 1st round draft pick anyway. i don't know that it would be much better than this adkins. at least adkins is a proven (such as it is) commodity with potential.

3rd, we aren't going anywhere WITH ray, so the loss is not all that! at least we get to see harris in action now as a full timer.
we save SOME money in the deal too!

now i hope they give valentin away so we can see crede fulltime too.

it's NOT all that bad!

TheBigHurt
07-25-2002, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by HawkDJ2k2
Sportscenter said we got the cash.

i saw cash on the bottom line

kermittheefrog
07-25-2002, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i think too big a deal is being made about this.

1st, why should oakland give much for a guy they'll get the use of for less than half season? they won't pay his demand next year either.

2nd, the teams that CAN afford to pay him will end up with a low 1st round draft pick anyway. i don't know that it would be much better than this adkins. at least adkins is a proven (such as it is) commodity with potential.

3rd, we aren't going anywhere WITH ray, so the loss is not all that! at least we get to see harris in action now as a full timer.
we save SOME money in the deal too!

now i hope they give valentin away so we can see crede fulltime too.

it's NOT all that bad!

I could go through the trouble to rebut this but we're on such opposite ends of the spectrum that it probably won't do any good. Let's just say I think you're very wrong.

And for the record, Adkins isn't any kind of proven commodity. He is proven that he isn't any good outside of the fact that he throws hard. He's less valuable than a first round pick by any measure.

TheBigHurt
07-25-2002, 11:28 PM
"The decision to trade Ray was not an easy one. Ray has been part of our family since 1990,'' White Sox general manager Ken Williams said. "In Adkins, we are getting a young pitcher with a live, quick, power arm.''

this guys an idiot :angry:

Tragg
07-25-2002, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i think too big a deal is being made about this.

1st, why should oakland give much for a guy they'll get the use of for less than half season? they won't pay his demand next year either.

You could ask that question to scores of teams over the last 15 years. You could ask it to Ron Schueler in 2000 when he traded for CJ. It's called winning a WS; making the playoffs. Whatever. Bottom line - they do.
Sounds like Kenny Williams thinks they shouldn't and, therefore, tries to save them from themselves by giving players away.

idseer
07-25-2002, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


I could go through the trouble to rebut this but we're on such opposite ends of the spectrum that it probably won't do any good. Let's just say I think you're very wrong.

And for the record, Adkins isn't any kind of proven commodity. He is proven that he isn't any good outside of the fact that he throws hard. He's less valuable than a first round pick by any measure.

then we'll disagree. i think draft picks are iffy at best, even 1st round ones (especially the lower ones).
at least the sox saved some money on ray's salary and they also save the bonus a 1st round draft pick would have cost them.

ray was gone anyway. this is NOT a big deal.

kermittheefrog
07-25-2002, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by idseer


then we'll disagree. i think draft picks are iffy at best, even 1st round ones (especially the lower ones).
at least the sox saved some money on ray's salary and they also save the bonus a 1st round draft pick would have cost them.

ray was gone anyway. this is NOT a big deal.

You think first round draft picks are less likely to turn into good players than AAA pitchers with 6.00 ERAs? I wish you would make a few trades with Kenny.

idseer
07-25-2002, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


You think first round draft picks are less likely to turn into good players than AAA pitchers with 6.00 ERAs? I wish you would make a few trades with Kenny.

oh please ... you make way too much of the 6+ era thing here.

until this year he had a winning record with a decent era little more than 4.
don't make me go to the trouble of finding successful pitchers who once had a high era in the minors.

don't get me wrong .. i'm on record as thinking KW is a loser as a gm. but too much is being made of this deal.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-25-2002, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


You think first round draft picks are less likely to turn into good players than AAA pitchers with 6.00 ERAs? I wish you would make a few trades with Kenny.

Hey, I wish I could make a few trades with Kenny. I'm pretty sure his house is bigger than mine.

LOL!!! The whole world wants to do a deal with Kenny! Why wouldn't they?

Historic deals by Kenny Williams:

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall--plus $500,000 cash."

"We'll fight them on land, we'll fight them in the seas, we'll fight them in the air, we'll never surrender--unless I confuse Barry with Berry."

"Ernie Broglio is a great pick up for us. Besides, Brock was going to be a free agent anyway and only teams serious about winning championships would honestly consider keeping him over Broglio.

HawkDJ
07-26-2002, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog



WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG

Not trading him at all would have been MUCH better. He most likely would be declared a type A free agent. We'd get the signing team's first round draft pick plus a compensation sandwich pick. Unless we have some sort of under the table agreement to bring Ray back (which would be sshweet as hell) this was a horrible deal.

OK so you got me. I thouht for some raeson compensation pick would be eliminated next year. Don't ask me where I heard that one. Also I figured it would be better to trade him because Willie would get to play more.

Soxheads
07-26-2002, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Hey, I wish I could make a few trades with Kenny. I'm pretty sure his house is bigger than mine.

LOL!!! The whole world wants to do a deal with Kenny! Why wouldn't they?

Historic deals by Kenny Williams:

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall--plus $500,000 cash."

"We'll fight them on land, we'll fight them in the seas, we'll fight them in the air, we'll never surrender--unless I confuse Barry with Berry."

"Ernie Broglio is a great pick up for us. Besides, Brock was going to be a free agent anyway and only teams serious about winning championships would honestly consider keeping him over Broglio.

I think KW has a "Jon" fetish, whereas whoever he wants as many people on this team named "Jon" as possible. I've noticed a whole lot of Jon's associated with the Sox: Garland, Rauch, the Berry we were supposed to get, and Adkins.


Just trying to peer into the darkness.

Tragg
07-26-2002, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


You think first round draft picks are less likely to turn into good players than AAA pitchers with 6.00 ERAs? I wish you would make a few trades with Kenny.

Kermit, you clearly fail to grasp the subtleties of this deal. Sure we could have a sandwich pick - and the As first round pick. All late selections take note. And the Sox own pick would be mid-round.
Now, however, Kenny has a good chance of sending us well below the Tigers and nab one of the top 5 picks in next year's draft - something impossible without Kenny's shrewd dealmaking.

kermittheefrog
07-26-2002, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by Tragg


Kermit, you clearly fail to grasp the subtleties of this deal. Sure we could have a sandwich pick - and the As first round pick. All late selections take note. And the Sox own pick would be mid-round.
Now, however, Kenny has a good chance of sending us well below the Tigers and nab one of the top 5 picks in next year's draft - something impossible without Kenny's shrewd dealmaking.

Good point. Look for Maggs and Konerko to go next.

Soxheads
07-26-2002, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Good point. Look for Maggs and Konerko to go next.

The sad part is that I could definitley see KW trading those two.

BuehrleACE56
07-26-2002, 12:56 AM
ok....the ray trade....here goes...

firstly i am glad to hear that we made a move. we lose another series, this time to minnesota, and are 14 back. next day is an off day so i figured K Willy would pull the trigger on some deal. I wanted Ray gone. i like ray-ray because he's been around for so long and he grows on you, but his poor play and lack of heart makes it easier to part with him. he wasnt going to be here next year anyways. at least our sox are making changes. had they stood pat through the deadline i would have been PISSED. I still hope valentin or clayton or lee goes before 7/31. this trade sucks tho. Ray Durham, who has been absolutely tearing it up of late, for a AAA pitcher who is 7-6 with an ERA over 6?!? We also gotta pay some of his salary. I just cannot believe that all we could get for ray, even as a rent-a-player, was on AAA prospect (who As management said was rushed to AAA as it is) and in order to get a deal we have to agree to pay some of Ray's salary. i mean if this is absolutely the best thing we could do then so be it, it's better than getting nothing at season's end. but i find it difficult to believe that this is all that ray is worth to a contender. this really sucks. it hurts. i cant wait to see what other moves we have in store. i want to cry. :whiner: honest.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-26-2002, 06:42 AM
I'm not sure I can square this first comment of yours...

firstly i am glad to hear that we made a move. we lose another series, this time to minnesota, and are 14 back. next day is an off day so i figured K Willy would pull the trigger on some deal. I wanted Ray gone.

...with this later comment...

but i find it difficult to believe that this is all that ray is worth to a contender. this really sucks. it hurts. i cant wait to see what other moves we have in store. i want to cry. :whiner: honest.

The honest truth is, we were never going to get much for Ray Durham, in spite of his being one of the better secondbasemen in the game. Worse, we will get even less for the slugs Kenny is supposedly still interested in dealing. Anyone supporting further trades ought to come clean about the bounty of talent they expect to receive in kind. I could use the laughs right now.

Here's the ugly truth: deals struck under duress are rarely good for that trading party--least of all a trading party like the Sox with a mental midget like Kenny Williams doing the trading.

Williams was desperate, and the A's took advantage. For another recent example of this dynamic, look no further than the bear market in stock equities. Sellers are spooked and desperate to unload. Buyers are getting prices they haven't seen in over five years.

As others have pointed out, the Sox could expect to do at least as well with a draft pick than some AAA roster filler, too lousy to even fit the definition of "prospect".

Kenny panicked, and he sold. The Sox are FURTHER from a championship as result.

This is a cold hard lesson. Be careful what you wish for. You might get it.

hold2dibber
07-26-2002, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
The honest truth is, we were never going to get much for Ray Durham, in spite of his being one of the better secondbasemen in the game.

Here's the real problem with this deal -- if Ray is one of the best second basemen in the game, why the hell weren't the Sox trying to resign him? The guys we have coming up to replace him (Harris, Jiminez, Hummel) do not have anywhere near the offensive potential that Durham has. I still think Ray is a valuable guy to have on the team. So the real problem, in my mind, is not that we didn't get enough for him, but that we didn't already re-sign him. Is the team going to be better next year with Durham gone and one of those other guys at 2B? I certainly don't think so (unless the Sox absolutely shock me and use the money saved at 2B on a real starting pitcher).

soxtalker
07-26-2002, 07:50 AM
I've seen several postings objecting to the deal, because we would have gotten draft picks if we did nothing and Ray walked at the end of the season. I have seen several reports in recent weeks that indicate that compensation picks will go away*. There is a good chance that if we simply held onto Ray and let him walk, we might get nothing in return.

If KW were making this deal a year or two ago, then I would probably agree that we got too little for Ray. We then could have simply held on for a draft pick. But this season is full of extra uncertainties related to the labor and budget issues for both sides in making trades, and this is just one more. Given those -- and I am no KW supporter -- this was probably as good of a deal as he could have gotten. The fact that several teams were interested implies to me that the teams on the other side are cutting very tough deals.

(* As I understand it, MLB wants to do something about the world-wide draft. As long as they have compensation picks, the players' union has some say in what they do with the draft. Hence, it is very likely that MLB will eliminate compensation picks.)

Sad
07-26-2002, 08:01 AM
adios Ray
happy to see ya go :smile:

go take your 15 errors & "I'm a veteran & can do what I want" attitude out west...

soxtalker
07-26-2002, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker

(* As I understand it, MLB wants to do something about the world-wide draft. As long as they have compensation picks, the players' union has some say in what they do with the draft. Hence, it is very likely that MLB will eliminate compensation picks.)

I saw this from another post on the board from last night:
http://foxsports.lycos.com/content/view?contentId=589634
My impression had been that MLB owners were going to impose this unilaterally. This article indicates that it may be something that they are negotiating with the players' union. In either case, there's a good chance that compensation will be disappearing.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-26-2002, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker

(* As I understand it, MLB wants to do something about the world-wide draft. As long as they have compensation picks, the players' union has some say in what they do with the draft. Hence, it is very likely that MLB will eliminate compensation picks.)

I asked last night if anybody could post a link to a definitive source's report that compensation picks ARE NOT being awarded next spring. Nobody has yet responded. Do you have one?

There has been an agreement in concept between the owners and players regarding a worldwide draft. This has nothing to do with compensation picks, especially since it was the OWNERS who wanted them in the first place. It's the OWNERS who are seeking givebacks from the players in these negotiations, not the other way around.

Besides that, the owners and players both have their interests hurt by immediately implementing new draft rules. A grandfather period for one extra year would almost certainly be agreed to regarding the 2002-03 draft period.

Again, the sportswriters do NOTHING to clarify this situation. They are a joke within the journalism community.

Tragg
07-26-2002, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Here's the ugly truth: deals struck under duress are rarely good for that trading party--least of all a trading party like the Sox with a mental midget like Kenny Williams doing the trading.

Williams was desperate, and the A's took advantage. For another recent example of this dynamic, look no further than the bear market in stock equities. Sellers are spooked and desperate to unload. Buyers are getting prices they haven't seen in over five years.



That's true. But nothing is what we should expect for a player like Royce Clayton. That's a player we should just give away if someone wants him - high salary and no one will sign him for anything near what he's signed for now (which I think affects compensation). Someone must need a utility infielder.
Giving Clayton away would make a similar salary impact as durham (not quite as much but signficant) plus we'd get the draft choices by keeping durham if nothing is the best he could get.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-26-2002, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker


I saw this from another post on the board from last night:
http://foxsports.lycos.com/content/view?contentId=589634
My impression had been that MLB owners were going to impose this unilaterally. This article indicates that it may be something that they are negotiating with the players' union. In either case, there's a good chance that compensation will be disappearing.

Exactly. Even Van Dyck isn't claiming there won't be compensation picks. To the contrary, he's confirming that it has to be negotiated first! He doesn't even mention how it would be implemented--let alone that it would effect this year's free agents.

You guys are like Chicken Little worrying about the sky falling. Your entire premise is fabricated.

stefaninsane
07-26-2002, 08:30 AM
Hmm...I'd say Ray is better n' Tyler Houston, and look at who the Brew Crew got for him...not to mention a first-round pick'd look might tasty. The again, I'll be happy if we stop trading with the A's and Pirates for a while. Suckers!

harwar
07-26-2002, 08:35 AM
I can't believe all the surprise and indignation.I mean haven't we all been waiting for ken(who me?)williams to start his masterful wheeling and dealing?There is no doubt in my mind that the White Sox are going to be just like the royals and tigers now.Just muddling along with no direction or real purpose except to try and figure out just what it is we are trying to accomplish.

steff
07-26-2002, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by Sad
adios Ray
happy to see ya go :smile:

go take your 15 errors & "I'm a veteran & can do what I want" attitude out west...


Oh yes.. this is tooo funny. Ray.. having an "I'm a vet and can do what I want" attitude. Where do you folks up there in Michigan get your info..?
Ray has consistantly been a "rah-rah" guy for this team. Trash talking the Cubs series, getting the fans into it. Keeping his mouth SHUT about clubhouse issues, smiling and chatting with fans down the 3rd base line on a regular basis, nearly EVERY single day stopping outside the gate to sign autographs. Sounds like a real bad attitude to me.

soxrme
07-26-2002, 09:22 AM
Peter Gammons said this morning that there will be no compensation for draft picks after the new agreement is signed.

soxtalker
07-26-2002, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Exactly. Even Van Dyck isn't claiming there won't be compensation picks. To the contrary, he's confirming that it has to be negotiated first! He doesn't even mention how it would be implemented--let alone that it would effect this year's free agents.

You guys are like Chicken Little worrying about the sky falling. Your entire premise is fabricated.

PHG -- you are correct when you say that it hasn't been determined yet whether there will be compensation picks. Here's what I think that it boils down to:

The latest reports indicate that the Sox have to pay $0.5M of the $2.1M remaining on Durham's contract, so they save $1.6M by making the deal. The Sox get a prospect pitcher who doesn't have great stats in AAA. (Maybe he'll suddenly get better. Maybe he should be a AA pitcher. Maybe he isn't that good.)

If there is a strike -- depending on when it is -- the A's will end up paying some amount of money for a player who is unable to help them, because the season has been wiped out. The Sox payment of $500K mitigates some of that risk.

If compensation is eliminated retroactively (no grandfather clause), the Sox will have picked up a prospect when they would have gotten nothing. They also save some salary -- how much depends on if and when a strike occurs. Looks like a good deal for the Sox.

If compensation is not eliminated retroactively (either not at all or there is a grandfather clause), the A's will have obtained the rights to those compensation picks for the cost of a prospect and some salary. Looks like a good deal for the A's.

Zednem700
07-26-2002, 09:36 AM
I'm absolutely dumbfounded. This is a horrible trade for the Sox. Not because Durham was so incredibly valuable or because the 25 year old border line prospect we got is so mediocre. No, its horrible because it once again demonstrates that the Kenny Williams and the team have no clue how to get something valuable in return for something valuable.

Was Durham someone who you had to get a top prospect or two to trade, no, but we should have received more. Williams gives up too much for too little, whether its 3 major league pitchers for one, or a mediocre prospect for one of the best offensive second basemen in the game. Other teams can see this and will be able to take advantage. The Dodgers gave up two prospects both higher regarded than Adkins for Tyler Houston. Other teams can see what the Sox require for players and will know that they can low ball them. All you people spouting off the nonsense that "this is all we could get for Durham" will soon have more and more chances to spout that and similar lines. If no one is willing to give you a good trade deal,eventually you begin to believe you have no choice but to accept what is offered. No team should offer Kenny Williams fair compensation in trades since its clear they can get what they want from him for less. Eventually trade compensation will get worse and worse and Kenny Williams will rank up there as one of the worst GMs of all time.

And to think some people yelled at me on this site when I said I almost hoped the Sox would tank early due to Kenny's trades, getting him fired and replaced with (dream of dreams) someone like Oakland's Paul De Podesta.

soxtalker
07-26-2002, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by Zednem700

And to think some people yelled at me on this site when I said I almost hoped the Sox would tank early due to Kenny's trades, getting him fired and replaced with (dream of dreams) someone like Oakland's Paul De Podesta.

Tell us more about Paul De Podesta. Is he an asst. GM?

kermittheefrog
07-26-2002, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker


Tell us more about Paul De Podesta. Is he an asst. GM?

Assistant GM, is in the Billy Beane inner circle that once contained JP Ricciardi and Grady Fuson who have moved on to bigger positions in Toronto and Texas. I doubt JR would be smart enough to bring in De Posesta. I think with Fuson and Ricciardi gone De Podesta is Beane's right hand man.

Cheryl
07-26-2002, 10:56 AM
I'm worried about this obsession KW has with how fast pitchers throw the ball. If this kid throws a fastball right down the middle of the plate at 96 mph, it just means when the ball is hit it'll go farther.

voodoochile
07-26-2002, 10:58 AM
I don't know whether we got jobbed in this trade or not, because I don't know anything about the pitcher. Sox aren't going anywhere this year, so it is better to get something for Ray than nothing. I don't know if the compensation picks (which may or may not happen next year) would be better than a guy with experience pitching at the AAA level. On the surface the guys sounds like Guerrier but with more heat.

One thing overlooked in the discussion is the fact that the Sox can always resign Ray at season's end. I would doubt the A's will try to sign him long term before a new CBA is in place. If Harris cannot cut it for the rest of the season, the Sox could always go out and get Ray back. His loss means nothing to this season anyway. Hope this Adkins kid is just going through a slump. Anyone got a link to some stats?

Zednem700
07-26-2002, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I don't know whether we got jobbed in this trade or not, because I don't know anything about the pitcher. Sox aren't going anywhere this year, so it is better to get something for Ray than nothing. I don't know if the compensation picks (which may or may not happen next year) would be better than a guy with experience pitching at the AAA level. On the surface the guys sounds like Guerrier but with more heat.

One thing overlooked in the discussion is the fact that the Sox can always resign Ray at season's end. I would doubt the A's will try to sign him long term before a new CBA is in place. If Harris cannot cut it for the rest of the season, the Sox could always go out and get Ray back. His loss means nothing to this season anyway. Hope this Adkins kid is just going through a slump. Anyone got a link to some stats?

Adkins wasn't even listed by most scouting groups as a serious prospect for Oakland. Now Oakland has a very deep minor league system so its possible that he's good but just not as good as 30 other prospects, but I am not very hopeful.

There is a chance that there will be no compensatory draft picks next season, how big a chance I don't know but even if its guaranteed that there will be no compensation, Kenny still got hosed. If this were just a straight salary dump why are we paying half of the remaining salary? Basically the Sox get someone who is far from a world beater, and save $500,000 on Durham's remaining salary. If you just want money, why not just sell? The commissioner only has aproval over deals where more than a million dollars change hands, why not sell Durham to LA or Boston for a million bucks, net gain 2 million. I guarantee that $2 million could be used to get a better player than Adkins. Every report has been saying that as many as 4 teams were expressing interest in Durham, if this is the best deal the Sox could get what the heck were the other teams offering, a 35 year old AAA left handed relief specialist with the Sox picking up all of Ray's salary? I just can't figure it out.

To the other post, De Podesta is Billy Beane's young, Harvard educated assisstant GM who is almost certainly going to be given a GM job in the next year or two. Most people thought he would leave before Ricciardi did, but Beane has managed to hold onto him so far.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-26-2002, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by Zednem700

There is a chance that there will be no compensatory draft picks next season, how big a chance I don't know but even if its guaranteed that there will be no compensation, Kenny still got hosed. If this were just a straight salary dump why are we paying half of the remaining salary? Basically the Sox get someone who is far from a world beater, and save $500,000 on Durham's remaining salary. If you just want money, why not just sell? The commissioner only has aproval over deals where more than a million dollars change hands, why not sell Durham to LA or Boston for a million bucks, net gain 2 million. I guarantee that $2 million could be used to get a better player than Adkins. Every report has been saying that as many as 4 teams were expressing interest in Durham, if this is the best deal the Sox could get what the heck were the other teams offering, a 35 year old AAA left handed relief specialist with the Sox picking up all of Ray's salary? I just can't figure it out.

Outstanding questions. I wish somebody had the answers. I know I don't.

Here's the best theory I have. 1997 was "White Flag"... 2002 is "Spite Flag"...

:reinsy
"Who doubts I'm not capable of it?"

miker
07-26-2002, 11:34 AM
So these are the thanks we fans get for supporting the "other" team in Chicago -- dumping any free agent or marketable player for squat. How 'bout we stick Jerry's taxpayer funded stadium up his you-know-what!

P.S. I love this tag: :gulp:

LongDistanceFan
07-26-2002, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by Zednem700


.

i went back in the oak past on their top 10 prospects. from 1998 he was never mention in the top 15 for any of those yrs. if he had great stuff, i am sure they would've made a mention somewhere. so who is kw trying to bs about his quality.

DrCrawdad
07-26-2002, 02:46 PM
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/news/020725durham.html
A's grab Durham at little cost

By Jim Callis
July 25, 2002

With several more teams looking to dump players than are seeking to acquire them, plus the likely end of draft-pick compensation for the loss of free agents , it's very much a buyer's market on the trade front right now. That condition was hammered home on Thursday, when the White Sox sent two-time all-star Ray Durham to the Athletics, along with cash toward the remainder of Durham's $6.3 million salary for 2002. In exchange, Chicago received Triple-A righthander Jon Adkins, who has a live armóbut also a 6.03 ERA at Triple-A Sacramento.

Durham, 30, was an American League all-star in 1998 and 2000. He has recovered from a slow start this year to hit .299-9-48 in 96 games and rank among the AL leaders in runs (71), stolen bases (20) and on-base percentage (a career-high .390). His defense is not a strength, but he's a top-notch leadoff hitter and will be a significant upgrade over rookie Mark Ellis, who has been starting at second base and batting first for Oakland. A career .278-106-484 hitter with 291 steals in 1,146 games, Durham will become a free agent at the end of the season.

Durham's pending free agency contributed heavily to the decision to deal him, as the White Sox are looking to trim payroll and have three Triple-A middle-infield prospects as potential replacements: Willie Harris, Tim Hummel and D'Angelo Jimenez. Chicago general manager Kenny Williams said that another factor in the trade was getting a chance to see Harris play regularly in the majors. But no matter what spin is put on this transaction, Chicago got very little in return.

Adkins, 24, has intriguing stuff: a 90-94 mph fastball with good sink and a plus slider. He also throws a changeup and a splitter, which aren't as refined as his two best pitches. Despite his arsenal, however, the 1998 ninth-round pick out of Oklahoma State doesn't show consistent command in the strike zone and gets hits hard and often. In 97 innings at Sacramento, he gave up 139 hits and 33 walks, while striking out 76. He had Tommy John surgery in 1999 that kept him out of most of the following season.

voodoochile
07-26-2002, 03:07 PM
I am hoping that part of the reason for this move is so that Harris can work with KL for the rest of the year batting second and get to see first hand what a leadoff hitter does everyday (or at least trys to do). They said all along that they wanted Harris to watch Lofton and with the Sox out of it this year and KL not due back, this is their ownly chance to make this happen. Hopefully it sticks with the kid and he is ready for next season, because that is the biggest concern I have offensively for the team next year - who gets on base for Paulie, Frank, Maggs, etc. ?

Like I said, they can always resign Durham if Harris looks like he needs another year in the minors. Though more likely they move Jose to 2B and bring up Jimenez or just start Tony G.

hold2dibber
07-26-2002, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I am hoping that part of the reason for this move is so that Harris can work with KL for the rest of the year batting second and get to see first hand what a leadoff hitter does everyday (or at least trys to do). They said all along that they wanted Harris to watch Lofton and with the Sox out of it this year and KL not due back, this is their ownly chance to make this happen. Hopefully it sticks with the kid and he is ready for next season, because that is the biggest concern I have offensively for the team next year - who gets on base for Paulie, Frank, Maggs, etc. ?

Like I said, they can always resign Durham if Harris looks like he needs another year in the minors. Though more likely they move Jose to 2B and bring up Jimenez or just start Tony G.

Jiminez, as I understand it, is an absolutely hack in the field. Tony G. is absolutely not an every day ball player. Hummel, for whom I once had high hopes, has an OBP of just over .300 at AAA. We have a lot of middle infield prospects, but none of them appear to be very good to me (although I think it is possible that Harris or Hummel might be serviceable in 2004 or 2005 - but that's a long way away and I'm getting sick of waiting). I assume Crede plays 3B next year, Manos at SS and the winner of Hummel/Harris/Jiminez at 2B.

kermittheefrog
07-26-2002, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


i went back in the oak past on their top 10 prospects. from 1998 he was never mention in the top 15 for any of those yrs. if he had great stuff, i am sure they would've made a mention somewhere. so who is kw trying to bs about his quality.

He was 22nd or 23rd on the list this year, can't remember exactly off the top of my head. He was 18th on the list last year.

idseer
07-26-2002, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by Zednem700

If this were just a straight salary dump why are we paying half of the remaining salary? Basically the Sox get someone who is far from a world beater, and save $500,000 on Durham's remaining salary. If you just want money, why not just sell? The commissioner only has aproval over deals where more than a million dollars change hands, why not sell Durham to LA or Boston for a million bucks, net gain 2 million. I guarantee that $2 million could be used to get a better player than Adkins. Every report has been saying that as many as 4 teams were expressing interest in Durham, if this is the best deal the Sox could get what the heck were the other teams offering, a 35 year old AAA left handed relief specialist with the Sox picking up all of Ray's salary? I just can't figure it out.



the sox AREN'T paying half his remaining salary. they're pay $500k and are saving 1.6 million on the rest of his salary ... quite different from the picture you're painting.

other teams expressing interest sounds nice but it doesn't mean anything if they wanted him for even LESS than we got.

unless anyone wants to believe JR purposely took the worst deal, i'd say what they got was all that could be had. any other team knows his asking price will skyrocket next year. why should anyone give up much for a short-term rental player? and who knows what happens to the whole picture after player\management contract negotiations?

if they keep him they pay 2.1 million, we lose anyway, and then he leaves, possibly with NO compensation! this way they save 1.6 million and get an arm thrown in.
so i'm betting they did the best they could under the restraints set up by JR

keywestwillie
07-26-2002, 04:18 PM
I have some hopes that Willie Harris will be able to produce.
At least this trade will give him a chance to show what he can do before spring training 2003 starts.

LongDistanceFan
07-26-2002, 04:23 PM
my question is exactly when was the time that, the sox really started looking into trading him. why not last yr, last summer, or even in the beginning of the season? the handling to the way this org is being run is inexcusable . all it take is a little planning and the realization of the team needs and talent base. no foresight and a gm who is gullible is what the org is being portrayed. a rudderless ship, and we are paying the price for that.

Jerry_Manuel
07-26-2002, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
my question is exactly when was the time that, the sox really started looking into trading him. why not last yr, last summer, or even in the beginning of the season?

My guess would be in June when they came to the conclusion that Minnesota wasn't going away.

I'm sure their thinking was that this season's team would be able to make some noise. Last year with all the injuries and such, they probably thought the team would rebound.

idseer
07-26-2002, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
my question is exactly when was the time that, the sox really started looking into trading him. why not last yr, last summer, or even in the beginning of the season? the handling to the way this org is being run is inexcusable . all it take is a little planning and the realization of the team needs and talent base. no foresight and a gm who is gullible is what the org is being portrayed. a rudderless ship, and we are paying the price for that.

i gotta believe they thought we would compete this year and that he'd be a fairly big part of that. by the time reality set in ... it was too late to get much.

LongDistanceFan
07-26-2002, 04:37 PM
regardless of the time or whether the compensation pick was an issue, you trade from strength. that strength is when a players value is high. i was for trading clee, durham and foulke last yr, when i thought that value was at its best.

in addition they needed to come to terms on what players will be here for the duration, if durham wasn't, then they should've look into moving him early.