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LITTLE NELL
06-20-2012, 02:22 PM
TCM, I'm sort of down on him. 1 HR for the year but he is swinging for the fences on every pitch. The Tank actually has more walks in 40 less at bats.
Horrible OBP and is batting .230. and he's not on the way to a Gold Glove season.
What could we get for him in a trade and who could play short if we moved him?

TomBradley72
06-20-2012, 02:24 PM
TCM, I'm sort of down on him. 1 HR for the year but he is swinging for the fences on every pitch. The Tank actually has more walks in 40 less at bats.
Horrible OBP and is batting .230. and he's not on the way to a Golden Glove season.
What could we get for him in a trade and who could play short if we moved him?

There is no one remotely available anywhere in our farm system to replace him.

DonnieDarko
06-20-2012, 02:43 PM
What could we get for him in a trade and who could play short if we moved him?

No offense man, since I usually value your opinion on the White Sox above most here.

But you've got to be out of your ****ing mind if you want to trade Ramirez.

ChiSoxFann
06-20-2012, 02:47 PM
I'm absolutely stunned he has struggled for so long this year, but I'm not ready to give up on him yet. As has been mentioned we have nobody in the system anywhere near ready to take his place. Plus if we did move him he is at his lowest value (unless some team is willing to bet on a change of scenery type move).

Maybe he's hurt or has something going on we don't know about? Either way, I still see him as our shortstop for a few more years at least.

LITTLE NELL
06-20-2012, 03:03 PM
No offense man, since I usually value your opinion on the White Sox above most here.

But you've got to be out of your ****ing mind if you want to trade Ramirez.

Number one, I've never been a big fan of him to begin with.
Number two, He's not exactly Derek Jeter or Luis Aparicio.
Number three, looking at his stats, he has regressed every year since his rookie year. Now might be the time to trade him while he has some value, especially if we could pick up a reliable starting pitcher.

soltrain21
06-20-2012, 03:07 PM
Number one, I've never been a big fan of him to begin with.
Number two, He's not exactly Derek Jeter or Luis Aparicio.
Number three, looking at his stats, he has regressed every year since his rookie year. Now might be the time to trade him while he has some value, especially if we could pick up a reliable starting pitcher.

Trading him now would be the worst possible time to trade him.

BleacherBandit
06-20-2012, 03:16 PM
Yeah, he's not very special. However, he is an above-average fielder thus making shortstop one of the lesser problems on this team. Fix third base and two of the rotation spots before you create a hole at SS.

Crestani
06-20-2012, 03:45 PM
He has won, or saved more ball games with his glove this year than he has lost with his bat....Leave him alone and concentrate on the real problems with this team, e.g., third base, and a solid reliable 4th starter..!!

JB98
06-20-2012, 03:48 PM
He has been disappointing, but third base and depth (both pitching and position players) are greater concerns. There is no internal option for replacing him either.

Lip Man 1
06-20-2012, 04:07 PM
He is what he is...a talented but very inconsistent player with lapses of concentration that have led to losses.

I don't know if he's going to suddenly "get it..." but we'll see.

Lip

Foulke You
06-20-2012, 04:33 PM
I'm stunned at Alexei's power drop off this year. I would never have believed he would only have 1 HR by the 3rd week of June. He has always had a good power stroke for a SS. I think his biggest problem has been poor pitch selection this year. He seems to lunge at a lot of fastballs far off the plate or foul them back. I hope it is just a slump or a bad season for him. We have him locked up through 2015 and his salary is back loaded.

sullythered
06-20-2012, 04:50 PM
He's struggling this year. He is still a very good defensive player, and I think he will end up relatively close to career norms at the plate. Couple that with the fact that this would be the absolute worst time to trade him. Terrible idea.

JB98
06-20-2012, 04:53 PM
He is what he is...a talented but very inconsistent player with lapses of concentration that have led to losses.

I don't know if he's going to suddenly "get it..." but we'll see.

Lip

I think he is what he is. I'm not sure everyone realizes Ramirez is 30 and will be 31 by the end of this season. Some people might think of him as a young player because this is only his fifth season in MLB, but he was a 26-year-old rookie in 2008. I don't see him as having anymore upside at this point. I think Alexei is a decent, but not great, shortstop who is having a down year at the plate.

It could be worse. At least he has 30 RBI to go with that .230-ish average. The lack of power this season has been perplexing, for sure.

DumpJerry
06-20-2012, 05:03 PM
The lack of power this season has been perplexing, for sure.
Fire Walker.

thomas35forever
06-20-2012, 06:41 PM
No question he's had his struggles, but I'm more convinced he'll come around than any of our other question marks. I'll live with a subpar season from Alexei. Let the pitching come around first though.

SCCWS
06-20-2012, 06:58 PM
I think he is what he is. I'm not sure everyone realizes Ramirez is 30 and will be 31 by the end of this season. Some people might think of him as a young player because this is only his fifth season in MLB, but he was a 26-year-old rookie in 2008. I don't see him as having anymore upside at this point. I think Alexei is a decent, but not great, shortstop who is having a down year at the plate.

It could be worse. At least he has 30 RBI to go with that .230-ish average. The lack of power this season has been perplexing, for sure.

I agree. He is average defensively and I think his offense will come around. He does have the worst BB/SO ratio of any AL shortstop this year. When you add him to Morel and Beckham, the Sox have a major offensive problem with their infield. Luckily Paulie offsets them a little bit.

fusillirob1983
06-21-2012, 12:03 PM
Alexei historically starts out slow so my guess is his average will keep going up.

2012 Season:
.207 in April
.245 in May
.254 in June

I don't know how to explain the lack of power though.

JB98
06-21-2012, 12:09 PM
Fire Walker.

I'm delighted that Walker is gone and Manto is here. Rios, Dunn and Pierzynski are all much better hitters right now than they were a year ago.

Our new hitting coach is obviously doing a better job of getting Sox veterans to buy into his philosophy. Ramirez is the only guy on this team performing worse than he did in 2011.

wassagstdu
06-21-2012, 12:32 PM
Number one, I've never been a big fan of him to begin with.
Number two, He's not exactly Derek Jeter or Luis Aparicio.
Number three, looking at his stats, he has regressed every year since his rookie year. Now might be the time to trade him while he has some value, especially if we could pick up a reliable starting pitcher.

1. I have not been a big fan either.
2. I would say he is no Chico Carrasquel, Luis Aparicio, Ozzie Guillen, or Juan Uribe.
3. The Sox and fans have overrated him for years. Others probably do too.

Still, he is fun to watch sometimes, and has made some unbelievable plays. But with the season on the line, give me Juan Uribe (not necessarily to be taken literally as of today).

Crestani
06-21-2012, 04:29 PM
[QUOTE=wassagstdu;2948767]1. I have not been a big fan either.
2. I would say he is no Chico Carrasquel, Luis Aparicio, Ozzie Guillen, or Juan Uribe.

But hey, he is no Jerry Dybzinski either...!!! :D:

BringBackBlkJack
06-21-2012, 05:07 PM
:thechoice:

"He's no Royce Clayton, either"
-Royce Clayton

TaylorStSox
06-21-2012, 07:46 PM
Did I wake up in some parallel world where Ramirez isn't one the best defensive shortstops in baseball? His hitting has been disappointing, by he's still driving in runs.

KMcMahon817
06-22-2012, 09:18 AM
I have been extremely disappointed in Alexei all year. He seems to be playing with his head up his ass. However, he has been fundamentally better at some things this season such as keeping the tag down on steal attempts, which I believe is a product of the new coaching staff.

Trading him now would be idiotic; he is better than he has played. But I am still incredibly disappointed in his production and I would venture a guess that he is as well. Alexei and Viciedo (who has really cooled off) need to start swinging the bats better if we want to stay in this thing.

doublem23
06-22-2012, 09:21 AM
Did I wake up in some parallel world where Ramirez isn't one the best defensive shortstops in baseball? His hitting has been disappointing, by he's still driving in runs.

I agree, whatever Alexei doesn't bring to the table with his bat is made up with his glove at arguably the most important position on the diamond, so I'm willing to live with it. There are a lot more problems with this roster than SS.

Dude's also hitting .349/.368/.444 with RISP. I'll deal.

hawkjt
06-22-2012, 09:33 AM
Alexei is not hitting well overall,but is on track for nearly 80 rbis...and is still one of the best SS in baseball defensively...at a defensive position.

He does need to heat up at the plate. Homers are not my concern with him,if he hits,the homers will come.

The offense can come and go with this club,but it is still better than last year,and the defense is there every nite...which Alexei is a big part of,along with Gordo.

TheVulture
06-22-2012, 05:40 PM
The Sox infield defense is one of the main reasons the Sox are in the race at this point, and this is probably the best defense the Sox have played the last several years. Plus, Ramirez is a career .305 hitter in July. So, no.

kevingrt
06-22-2012, 05:43 PM
Number three, looking at his stats, he has regressed every year since his rookie year. Now might be the time to trade him while he has some value, especially if we could pick up a reliable starting pitcher.

I am not the biggest Alexei fan in the world but here are his WAR from the last four years:

2008: 1.1
2009: 2.4
2010: 4.3
2012: 4.9

Now this year he is at a 2011 Riosesqe number of -0.5 but I expect that number to rebound unless he is the second coming of Adam Dunn.

TaylorStSox
06-22-2012, 05:55 PM
I really don't even understand why people say "I'm not the biggest Alexei fan." The guy has been our second best position player since he signed. Bone headed plays go along with 95% of shortstops. It's the nature of the position.

SephClone89
06-22-2012, 06:02 PM
I am not the biggest Alexei fan in the world but here are his WAR from the last four years:

2008: 1.1
2009: 2.4
2010: 4.3
2012: 4.9

Now this year he is at a 2011 Riosesqe number of -0.5 but I expect that number to rebound unless he is the second coming of Adam Dunn.

'nuff said. Looking forward to the bobblehead day in a couple of weeks.

kevingrt
06-22-2012, 06:04 PM
I really don't even understand why people say "I'm not the biggest Alexei fan." The guy has been our second best position player since he signed. Bone headed plays go along with 95% of shortstops. It's the nature of the position.

Because they don't like him that much? What is wrong with not liking a player that much? I'm not the biggest fan of AJ either. But I do like Beckham who vastly under produces AJ. Just preference on players.

TaylorStSox
06-22-2012, 06:21 PM
Because they don't like him that much? What is wrong with not liking a player that much? I'm not the biggest fan of AJ either. But I do like Beckham who vastly under produces AJ. Just preference on players.

I understand, and that's fine. I can't stand AJ. I think he's arrogant, lazy and haven't really forgiven his antics in Minnesota. Alexei seems likable. He's an excellent player with 2 great tools and 3 good tools relative to his position. For some reason he's the least respected Sox player I can remember. I wasn't necessarily directing my post at you, but Sox fans in general. Perhaps Ramirez needs more schtick.

Brian26
06-22-2012, 07:03 PM
I understand, and that's fine. I can't stand AJ. I think he's arrogant, lazy and haven't really forgiven his antics in Minnesota. Alexei seems likable. He's an excellent player with 2 great tools and 3 good tools relative to his position. For some reason he's the least respected Sox player I can remember. I wasn't necessarily directing my post at you, but Sox fans in general. Perhaps Ramirez needs more schtick.

Man, you still hold a grudge against AJ from nine years ago and have somehow missed Alexei's hotdog bull**** over the years? Did you see the game last year when Alexei got thrown out at first by the rightfielder and then put his hands up in the air like "how dare you do that to me?"

KMcMahon817
06-22-2012, 07:31 PM
Man, you still hold a grudge against AJ from nine years ago and have somehow missed Alexei's hotdog bull**** over the years? Did you see the game last year when Alexei got thrown out at first by the rightfielder and then put his hands up in the air like "how dare you do that to me?"

Or how he flops like a fish when he gets an inside pitch...many of which are strikes. Or how he watches every single first pitch go right down the middle as he steps out of the box before the pitch has even crossed the plate. He does a TON of stupid ****. I don't hate Alexei...I actually used to like him a lot, but his **** has worn thin on me recently.

Brian26
06-22-2012, 07:43 PM
I don't hate Alexei...I actually used to like him a lot, but his **** has worn thin on me recently.

I don't hate Alexei either. Love his defense. But, to say you hates AJ's schtick and then come back and use Alexei as a shining example of someone "likable" doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense to me.

kevingrt
06-22-2012, 07:59 PM
And plays like the one he just made on Braun are the number one reason why not everyone likes/appreciates Alexei.

JB98
06-22-2012, 08:02 PM
Ramirez just got lazy on a routine grounder and allowed Braun to beat the throw to first moments ago in tonight's game. That's a shining example right there of why some people "aren't big Alexei fans."

I'm by no means ready to get rid of him, but he makes too many mental miscues out there. That's really what prevents him from winning a Gold Glove. He's a pretty gifted player physically, but he'll drive you crazy at times.

TaylorStSox
06-22-2012, 08:07 PM
I don't hate Alexei either. Love his defense. But, to say you hates AJ's schtick and then come back and use Alexei as a shining example of someone "likable" doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense to me.

Alexei never took a cheap shot at the best player to wear a Sox uniform. Aj's dirty and it rubs me the wrong way. He'll have my support though as long as he's a Sox.
Alexei bails on pitches because he's taking all the way. Most hitters do that. I don't like that he bails on slides and avoids contact, but I prefer he stays healthy. I've never considered him a hot dog. I've also never question his effort. On top of that, he's a hell of a player. I don't expect him to be a fan favorite, but he deserves more respect.

TaylorStSox
06-22-2012, 08:16 PM
I take it all back.:)

Adele_H
06-23-2012, 01:19 AM
Alexei never took a cheap shot at the best player to wear a Sox uniform. Aj's dirty and it rubs me the wrong way. He'll have my support though as long as he's a Sox.

Alexei bails on pitches because he's taking all the way. Most hitters do that. I don't like that he bails on slides and avoids contact, but I prefer he stays healthy. I've never considered him a hot dog. I've also never question his effort. On top of that, he's a hell of a player. I don't expect him to be a fan favorite, but he deserves more respect.

Funny you should say, in my view AJP and Alexei in some ways are similiar. Both have a reputation for coasting on pure TALENT --- hand-quickness, hand-eye coordination and plate-coverage; high-motor; and in Alexei's case also speed on the basepaths & ability to play any position on INF and OF instintively.............

but then as age & wear and tear started to pile up...and as the league better learned their weak-spots, their production plateau-d and even regressed.

AJ said he worked his butt off in the off-season like he never had before -- and you can tell he looks like a different hitter up there. I am sure the fact that he is a FA served as motivation.

I never bought into the whole "Alexei warms up with the weather" thing. I think he comes to ST out of shape. I think April is his ST. I also think that's why he burns out in September -- spends so much energy unnecessarily trying to "catch up" during regular season games, that has not much in the tank down the stretch.

Alexei also goes to the provebial zoo on too many plays --- whether missing hit-n-run signs resulting in Sox baserunner getting thrown out by a mile OR completely losing a routine blooper pop-up or botching a would-be DP -- which doesn't result in an error because "you can't assume a DP" blablabla.......... Is it a sign of him being lazy or having attention-deficit or just merely too cocky about being able to make every play without expending much energy? Hard to say. But I he is CLEARLY an all-around underchiever in my book. Maybe I am wrong.

As for AJ...... another colourful character. So many legends, so many confliting opinions about him, he beats the Legend of Aaron Rowand and Swish Nickowiak by a mile in that department.

I don't think AJ is a villain that baseball people/fans think he is. I don't think he is super-dirty or a crazy or bad person like Brett Myers or Luke Scott, et al.

However, I also don't buy in Sox fan worship of this guy as like the embodiment of Eternal Winning Spirit, World-Series Superhero, Smartest Baserunner & Pitch-Caller Evah..... either.

AJ is not a boring guy, that's for sure. In a world that increasingly has bland personalities, he's at times refreshing.

When he doesn't allow back-to-back wild-pitches because he's too lazy or too tired to move his chest-protector in front of the ball (this is where his refusal to rest on the bench eventually catches up with him IMO)_

HaroMaster87
06-23-2012, 05:18 AM
Anorexei? Really? Not even remotely funny. :angry:

I agree...I changed John Garlands name to a female name a few years ago and had to BEG to be let back onto this forum after receiving the banstick...I thought personal attacks were not allowed...

Back to the main topic...I told my best Sox friend today, right after Braun beat out that grounder that I hated Alexei...man, he has me soooo frustrated this year. I know, looking around the league hes still in the top 3 or 5 but geez, hes a frustrating talent. If hes gonna hit like this, those defensive gaffs are unacceptable. A la Bacon...I still feel like the opposing pitchers respect him at the plate, but thats not gonna last forever. He needs to figure it out.

Trading him??? NO...WAY...Why would you trade low?? And he still has a ton of value cuz hes signed and a ++ defender. Also, as someone else metioned, why create another hole on this team... we have enough already...

SephClone89
06-23-2012, 07:06 AM
I guess I need to grow up and be a bit more sensitive to political correctness. Point taken.

Mea culpa.

Right, because NOT referring to a slim baseball player in a way that trivializes a health epidemic that's been huge and widely reported on the last couple decades is "political correctness." It's more like "not being a jackass."

Btw, I've felt this way for a while, and I heard Keith Law express the same view the other day: I HATE hearing people refer to baseball players as "lazy." It's most often used to refer to players of certain backgrounds and not others. Nobody gets to be an above/average big leaguer by being lazy. Think about it. We saw it in the Dunn/Rios thing last year too. Not unlike how some players get "he has all the tools and is so athletic!," again, only players of certain backgrounds. Or how when scouts andwriters come up with player comparisons it's often shoehorned by appearance and background.

But you'll probably shrug this off as more "political correctness."

white sox bill
06-23-2012, 08:56 AM
Send the Cuban Missle my way, I'd be glad to bulk him up. Heavy weights, lots of calories, no cardio. Of course he'd lose a step or two....

Adele_H
06-23-2012, 02:31 PM
Right, because NOT referring to a slim baseball player in a way that trivializes a health epidemic that's been huge and widely reported on the last couple decades is "political correctness." It's more like "not being a jackass."

Btw, I've felt this way for a while, and I heard Keith Law express the same view the other day: I HATE hearing people refer to baseball players as "lazy." It's most often used to refer to players of certain backgrounds and not others. Nobody gets to be an above/average big leaguer by being lazy. Think about it. We saw it in the Dunn/Rios thing last year too. Not unlike how some players get "he has all the tools and is so athletic!," again, only players of certain backgrounds. Or how when scouts andwriters come up with player comparisons it's often shoehorned by appearance and background.

But you'll probably shrug this off as more "political correctness."

No, I would shrug it off as mildly patronizing and ignoring the actual points I made and context provided. You and others seem to disagree. Wonderful. Not first time, nor last.

There is a reason why I also brought up Dunn, Rios, Buerhle and AJP for compare/contrast purposes. They are pretty well known to "take it easy" in the offseason and in some ways during the season,too throughout their careers. Coasting on sheer talent at times. Until they got to the age where they couldn't and the league had them scouted so thoroughly you could see things just weren't working quite as well -- and in Dunn and Rios's case, were not working at all. All 4 by all accounts changed their routine in 2011-2012 off-season and so far it has paid off (I know Buerhle got hammered lately but I was talking more early season form plus his shoulder may be shot, we'll see).

I am or rather WAS a big fan of Alexei. Hence the disappointment. I watched him very closely, and feel confident in what I am saying, and stand by my opinion 100%. I hope he has reached rock bottom and akes the necessary change in routine/preparation/coachability. He's not too old to improve. I am not expecting 5 grand-slams a year, but merely sick and tired of long, loopy uppercut swings, 200 foot pop-ups to RCF and beating earthworms on the left side of homeplate any time he sees a semi-decent sinker on a 2-0 count with the opposing team setting him up easily for a GIDP. Brain-cramps in the field and on the basepaths, too. I could take or leave.

YMMV.

Adele_H
06-23-2012, 02:36 PM
Send the Cuban Missle my way, I'd be glad to bulk him up. Heavy weights, lots of calories, no cardio. Of course he'd lose a step or two....

Oh no, he'll possibly lose a step. How horrible. Especially if it means hitting more than an extra base hit per month in 2012 and ending up with 850 OPS (probably 90-100 RBI considering his RISP chances).

Lillibridge was tiny after 2010. Alfonzo Soriano was a veritable stick-figure coming up with the Yankees. Hanley Ramirez had to bulk up, too. And dozens of other "uniquely skinny" dudes. Even Beckham added 15-20 pounds.

Of course it could be coincidence that Alexei is the only player to LOSE weight as he got older.... and the work-ethic red flags & reputation (to be fair, Viciedo also had it) are totaly untrue. I think I'll go with the odds that it's not.

SI1020
06-23-2012, 03:44 PM
I never would have called Alexei that name, but by the same token living in fear and walking on eggshells isn't my thing either. Of course no one wants to be thought of as an insensitive boor, but sometimes honesty is a casualty. As for Alexei, he frustrates me too. I thought his lowest potential was near superstar. It hasn't worked out. I'm beginning to think maybe it never will. In any case, the way this team is going lately, a resurgent Alexei Ramirez would be welcome for sure.