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Lip Man 1
06-18-2012, 11:22 PM
Thinks Danks is just having "normal" soreness...
Won't be drawn into attendence / trade acquisition issues...
Suggested moving Dayan to 3rd base...
Talked to Robin after Sunday's "bad decision" making (italics mine)...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0619-brite-white-sox-chicago--20120619,0,4583644.story

Lip

WhiteSox5187
06-18-2012, 11:30 PM
I find the fact that Kenny would even think of moving Dayan to third pretty scary. And as for his reluctance to "expound the [attendance issue]" because he "gets buried on it," by even bringing it up he is already sort of blaming the fans for not showing up, just not directly.

I really hope he steps down at the end of the year.

RKMeibalane
06-18-2012, 11:34 PM
I've said enough about Kenny's poor handling of the attendance issue on the WSI Facebook page, so I won't bring it up here. What I will say is this: it boggles my mind that Williams would even think about moving Viciedo back to 3B, as he seems to be settling into LF nicely after some rough moments during Spring Training and April.

Count me amongst those who would rather Williams step down at season's end, regardless of where the Sox finish. He will be remembered as the man who helped bring a World Championship to the South Side, but his act has worn stale, and his insistence on passing the buck every time something bad happens is tired, as well.

DirtySox
06-18-2012, 11:34 PM
Thinks Danks is just having "normal" soreness...

Lip

Scot Gregor ‏@scotgregor
Danks said MRI Monday revealed Grade 1 tear in sub-scap. No surgery, but he needs rest and there's no timetable on return
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WhiteSox5187
06-18-2012, 11:36 PM
Scot Gregor ‏@scotgregor
Danks said MRI Monday revealed Grade 1 tear in sub-scap. No surgery, but he needs rest and there's no timetable on return
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To be fair to Kenny I suspect that his statements were made before he knew that about Danks.

DirtySox
06-18-2012, 11:38 PM
To be fair to Kenny I suspect that his statements were made before he knew that about Danks.

Clearly. Just clarifying as it's anything but normal soreness.

Noneck
06-18-2012, 11:40 PM
Thinks Danks is just having "normal" soreness...


Scot Gregor ‏@scotgregor
Danks said MRI Monday revealed Grade 1 tear in sub-scap. No surgery, but he needs rest and there's no timetable on return
Reply Retweet Favorite

This is the crap that ticks me off, why the lies? Do the Sox think that a couple more people will buy advance tics if they think Danks is just sore?

RKMeibalane
06-18-2012, 11:44 PM
This is the crap that ticks me off, why the lies?

We don't know that he lied. It's likely that he made his statement before this information was made available to him. I don't take much of what Williams says seriously, as he's nothing but a glorified mouth-piece for Jugdish Reinsdorf.

Noneck
06-18-2012, 11:46 PM
To be fair to Kenny I suspect that his statements were made before he knew that about Danks.


Then you say nothing or say we will see when we get the mri results.

Noneck
06-18-2012, 11:48 PM
I don't take much of what Williams says seriously, as he's nothing but a glorified mouth-piece for Jugdish Reinsdorf.


I agree with this, thats why I never said it was Williams fault.

RKMeibalane
06-18-2012, 11:49 PM
Then you say nothing or say we will see when the we the mri results.

What you're saying makes sense (and it's what he should have done), but it's important to remember that Williams has diarrhea of the mouth. He can't help but say something stupid in front of the media: given the number of media-whores who have worked for the Sox over the past twenty years (Williams, Guillen, etc.), it's a wonder that anyone is surprised when a member of Sox brass ****s himself at a press-conference.

thomas35forever
06-18-2012, 11:49 PM
This is the crap that ticks me off, why the lies? Do the Sox think that a couple more people will buy advance tics if they think Danks is just sore?
Nobody goes to Comiskey to see John Danks. How often do you hear that in everyday conversation? They go to see a ballgame. Many could care less who's wearing the uniform.

Noneck
06-18-2012, 11:52 PM
Nobody goes to Comiskey to see John Danks. How often do you hear that in everyday conversation? They go to see a ballgame. Many could care less who's wearing the uniform.


Everyone knows at this point that Danks is the key if this team will have success. Its not about seeing Danks pitch.

RKMeibalane
06-18-2012, 11:52 PM
Nobody goes to Comiskey to see John Danks. How often do you hear that in everyday conversation? They go to see a ballgame. Many could care less who's wearing the uniform.

This board is filled with people who became Sox fans because of Frank Thomas. Although no current Sox player is as popular- or as polarizing- as the Big Hurt was during his career, it's unfair to assume that fans won't make decisions about seeing a baseball game based on who's playing in it. That being said, I agree that most people probably don't care enough about John Danks to back out on attending a baseball game.

WhiteSox5187
06-18-2012, 11:54 PM
Then you say nothing or say we will see when we get the mri results.

Kenny does not know how to do this.

voodoochile
06-18-2012, 11:59 PM
If Kenny starts actively getting involved in day to day management of the team we're sooooooo ****ed...

thomas35forever
06-19-2012, 12:00 AM
This board is filled with people who became Sox fans because of Frank Thomas. Although no current Sox player is as popular- or as polarizing- as the Big Hurt was during his career, it's unfair to assume that fans won't make decisions about seeing a baseball game based on who's playing in it. That being said, I agree that most people probably don't care enough about John Danks to back out on attending a baseball game.
I most certainly agree that players will often affect who shows up at the gate. Usually, those are fans who want to see good baseball. My point is a great number of people go to ballgames just because it's something to do. An entertainment experience if you will (though that's technically what it is all the same). That's why people show up at Wrigley more often than Comiskey. They just want to have a good time. They could care less what happens on the field.

RKMeibalane
06-19-2012, 12:03 AM
If Kenny starts actively getting involved in day to day management of the team we're sooooooo ****ed...

Both of us lived through '02 and '03, when it was rumored Eddie Einhorn confronted him about his meddling in clubhouse affairs. Of course, it was also around that time that he flipped a buffet table and called his players mother****ers and bitches. Maybe we're in for an encore.

Noneck
06-19-2012, 12:10 AM
If Kenny starts actively getting involved in day to day management of the team we're sooooooo ****ed...


And if he does get involved, I believe it will be because thats what he was told to do.

DSpivack
06-19-2012, 12:11 AM
If Kenny starts actively getting involved in day to day management of the team we're sooooooo ****ed...

I figured that he hired Robin because he figured he could control him.

WhiteSox5187
06-19-2012, 12:14 AM
I figured that he hired Robin because he figured he could control him.

That's kind of what I thought too. I don't think I buy into the idea of Kenny getting more involved because that's what Jerry wants him to do. Kenny knows his job is at stake here and is an egomaniac to begin with, I don't think he needs a lot of motivation to start manipulating the roster or lineups as he sees fit. I am not sure that Robin would willing let him do that but since Kenny has a lot more experience than he does, Robin might just sort of let it happen.

kobo
06-19-2012, 12:19 AM
Thinks Danks is just having "normal" soreness...
Won't be drawn into attendence / trade acquisition issues...
Suggested moving Dayan to 3rd base...
Talked to Robin after Sunday's "bad decision" making (italics mine)...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0619-brite-white-sox-chicago--20120619,0,4583644.story

Lip
If KW was serious when he suggested moving Viciedo to 3rd that tells me all I need to know about his decision making process. I want the guy gone. Glad to know his 'idea' was soundly and quickly rejected by the coaching staff, actually gives me a little more faith in the staff. I also find it funny he "talked" to RV about yesterday's decision to pull Quintana. He needs to go, the Sox need a new direction and I don't think he's helping this team at all.

shingo10
06-19-2012, 12:23 AM
After reading last week's tribune articles about La Russa and his desire to get "more involved" in the front end aspect, I can't Kenny being too long for this job. And for the record I like Kenny a lot...I'm not hoping he gets "reassigned" but I don't think there's any way La Russa isn't working for the Sox next season.

Maybe Kenny will even "voluntarily" step down as he offered to do last year. It must be tearing JR apart that there's not enough room for La Russa right now.

kobo
06-19-2012, 12:23 AM
And if he does get involved, I believe it will be because thats what he was told to do.
If he does it's because his ego was able to fit into the room. Won't be because of Reinsdorf.

Noneck
06-19-2012, 12:24 AM
That's kind of what I thought too. I don't think I buy into the idea of Kenny getting more involved because that's what Jerry wants him to do. Kenny knows his job is at stake here and is an egomaniac to begin with, I don't think he needs a lot of motivation to start manipulating the roster or lineups as he sees fit. I am not sure that Robin would willing let him do that but since Kenny has a lot more experience than he does, Robin might just sort of let it happen.

This all makes me think, Ventura was not really seeking this job (like ozwaldo was), Ventura made big money as a player and doesnt seem the type that pissed it all away, I can see him walking at year end, no matter if its Williams or Reinsdorf stepping on his toes. He doesnt seem the type that would take that kind of crap considering he doesnt need to.

Noneck
06-19-2012, 12:26 AM
If he does it's because his ego was able to fit into the room. Won't be because of Reinsdorf.

His ego is as big as one allows it to be.

TaylorStSox
06-19-2012, 12:52 AM
Nobody goes to Comiskey to see John Danks. How often do you hear that in everyday conversation? They go to see a ballgame. Many could care less who's wearing the uniform.
I don't think baseball nerds understand that 95% of the people at games aren't baseball nerds.

fusillirob1983
06-19-2012, 01:05 AM
Then you say nothing or say we will see when we get the mri results.

If you watch the clip on Tribune website, you'll see that Kenny makes his guess about general soreness, which he follows up with saying he truly didn't know Danks' situation and was actually going to see what the situation was with Danks after speaking to the media. I guess Kenny could have said nothing, but he was not dishonest or trying to sway anything. What's the point of trying to fool people for a 30 minute period or whatever it was until they had the actual results?

Noneck
06-19-2012, 01:13 AM
If you watch the clip on Tribune website, you'll see that Kenny makes his guess about general soreness, which he follows up with saying he truly didn't know Danks' situation and was actually going to see what the situation was with Danks after speaking to the media. I guess Kenny could have said nothing, but he was not dishonest or trying to sway anything. What's the point of trying to fool people for a 30 minute period or whatever it was until they had the actual results?

I was unable to see the video clip and basing what I said on the script. Thanks for the info which now makes sense.

Nellie_Fox
06-19-2012, 01:13 AM
Kenny knows his job is at stake here...I don't believe that's true. I don't think his job is at stake at all.

BigKlu59
06-19-2012, 01:18 AM
Both of us lived through '02 and '03, when it was rumored Eddie Einhorn confronted him about his meddling in clubhouse affairs. Of course, it was also around that time that he flipped a buffet table and called his players mother****ers and bitches. Maybe we're in for an encore.

So's you think he's gonna do his best broadway performance for his curtain call , wig out, and jump off of the Titanic before the iceberg hits, Rather than getting the shiney boot in his ass ? Maybe it is time for some fresh blood up top..

BK59

RKMeibalane
06-19-2012, 01:23 AM
So's you think he's gonna do his best broadway performance for his curtain call , wig out, and jump off of the Titanic before the iceberg hits, Rather than getting the shiney boot in his ass ? Maybe it is time for some fresh blood up top..

BK59

:reinsy

"You people are crazy if you think I'm going to fire Kenny Williams! Why would I want to pay two different people to be the Sox GM? I can't afford that, and it's all your fault!"

hawkjt
06-19-2012, 01:57 AM
If you watch the clip on Tribune website, you'll see that Kenny makes his guess about general soreness, which he follows up with saying he truly didn't know Danks' situation and was actually going to see what the situation was with Danks after speaking to the media. I guess Kenny could have said nothing, but he was not dishonest or trying to sway anything. What's the point of trying to fool people for a 30 minute period or whatever it was until they had the actual results?


Anyone with half a brain could see that Kenny was just updating Danks condition at that point with the info he had at that point,after being asked a direct question. We have some real idiot fans on this board,who would blame Kenny W. for the summer heat if they could.

Most of the fans on here were mad at Robin about the decision to pull Quintana,and now they rip on Kenny for talking to Robin about it? Jesus H Christ...we have the most fickle fans in sports history,by a mile .

tstrike2000
06-19-2012, 02:01 AM
Both of us lived through '02 and '03, when it was rumored Eddie Einhorn confronted him about his meddling in clubhouse affairs. Of course, it was also around that time that he flipped a buffet table and called his players mother****ers and bitches. Maybe we're in for an encore.

He did? Never heard that before.

kufram
06-19-2012, 06:50 AM
I'm not so sure that Danks is the key to the season. In fact Danks being out for an extended period of time might be the best thing. I t might force them to find a real pitcher rather than have one we hope can get it together.

Complain all you want but with the crowds they are drawing, while occupying first place in the division, of course it impacts on how much you can spend to get players.

gobears1987
06-19-2012, 06:53 AM
Kenny Williams needs to get the hell away from this team.

He should've been ****canned last year.

SI1020
06-19-2012, 08:41 AM
I'm not so sure that Danks is the key to the season. In fact Danks being out for an extended period of time might be the best thing. I t might force them to find a real pitcher rather than have one we hope can get it together.

Complain all you want but with the crowds they are drawing, while occupying first place in the division, of course it impacts on how much you can spend to get players. Don't be fooled. The White Sox have money. Maybe not Yankees Red Sox money, but they're far from broke.

Hitmen77
06-19-2012, 09:46 AM
I find the fact that Kenny would even think of moving Dayan to third pretty scary. And as for his reluctance to "expound the [attendance issue]" because he "gets buried on it," by even bringing it up he is already sort of blaming the fans for not showing up, just not directly.

I really hope he steps down at the end of the year.

This is the same guy who thought that Mark Teahen was going to be our everyday 3B. Before that, he said third baseman Josh Fields was going to be an all-star for us.

I don't believe that's true. I don't think his job is at stake at all.

Agreed. I don't think KW's job is at stake at all.....not as long as JR owns this team.

Kenny Williams needs to get the hell away from this team.

He should've been ****canned last year.

His strong point is being able to make "scrap heap" acquisitions. Perhaps Quintana counts as one of those since I believe he was a Rule 5 pickup. But you can't build a consistently winning franchise with this as your cornerstone year to year.

His approach is basically "go for broke". I do like having a GM that is aggressive and wants the team to go for it at the trading deadline. But there is a difference between being aggressive and just having a "go for broke" approach. Since the organization is so thin on talent, there's really not much for the team to fall back on when transactions turn out to be flops.

IMO, Sox management squandered the huge bump this team got in attendance/revenue after 2005. Sure, they spent money at the time on veterans like Dunn, Peavy and Rios, but they failed at building a strong organization that has enough talent to assure continued success. They stuck with the same management team as the ballclub fell on their face out the gate and again down the stretch year after year. Now that the crowds have been whittled down to pre-2005 levels, we're back to the old "can't spend money we don't have" management style.

slavko
06-19-2012, 10:05 AM
This is the same guy who thought that Mark Teahen was going to be our everyday 3B. Before that, he said third baseman Josh Fields was going to be an all-star for us.



Agreed. I don't think KW's job is at stake at all.....not as long as JR owns this team.



His strong point is being able to make "scrap heap" acquisitions. Perhaps Quintana counts as one of those since I believe he was a Rule 5 pickup. But you can't build a consistently winning franchise with this as your cornerstone year to year.

His approach is basically "go for broke". I do like having a GM that is aggressive and wants the team to go for it at the trading deadline. But there is a difference between being aggressive and just having a "go for broke" approach. Since the organization is so thin on talent, there's really not much for the team to fall back on when transactions turn out to be flops.

IMO, Sox management squandered the huge bump this team got in attendance/revenue after 2005. Sure, they spent money at the time on veterans like Dunn, Peavy and Rios, but they failed at building a strong organization that has enough talent to assure continued success. They stuck with the same management team as the ballclub fell on their face out the gate and again down the stretch year after year. Now that the crowds have been whittled down to pre-2005 levels, we're back to the old "can't spend money we don't have" management style.

You make sense. We need some of that in this finger pointing feast called a thread. But Reinsy fired Jerry Krause and I wouldn't count Kenny as any more secure.

Tragg
06-19-2012, 10:22 AM
3b is not the real problem here. Teams can withstand an offensive hole at a single position. And moving Viciedo and putting mental pressure on him to play 3B could mess with his offense. And a defensive downgrade is something we don't need.
Because starting pitching is the problem. And Williams knew that at the start of the season - thus all of these trades for starting pitching prospects.

No more zig-zagging.

balke
06-19-2012, 10:31 AM
3b is not the real problem here. Teams can withstand an offensive hole at a single position. And moving Viciedo and putting mental pressure on him to play 3B could mess with his offense. And a defensive downgrade is something we don't need.
Because starting pitching is the problem. And Williams knew that at the start of the season - thus all of these trades for starting pitching prospects.

No more zig-zagging.


3B is and has been a HUGE problem offensively since Crede. Winning teams have hitters at that position. And no the Sox have not made up for that power at SS or 2B.


Moving Viciedo in place of Hudson isn't that big of a deal to me. Hudson isn't a gold glover at 3B so far. Long term - Viciedo is not a permanent fix at 3B. And I don't see the point of moving him there if there's noone with a bat to replace him in LF. Maybe just for interleague games they could try this.

TheOldRoman
06-19-2012, 10:31 AM
Now that the crowds have been whittled down to pre-2005 levels, we're back to the old "can't spend money we don't have" management style.Yeah, except for the really, really high payroll. The payroll was $51 million in 2003, 22nd in baseball, and that was even with the attendance and revenue jump associated with the All Star Game. They are now #11 in payroll despite abysmal attendance. Ownership took a bath last year with a top-five payroll, $130 million for a team that tanked and kept fans away. If the Sox would have responded by cutting payroll by $50-60 million, your point might be valid. As is, they are spending more money now than in the past. But can still call them cheap if you prefer.

SI1020
06-19-2012, 10:41 AM
You make sense. We need some of that in this finger pointing feast called a thread. But Reinsy fired Jerry Krause and I wouldn't count Kenny as any more secure. How bad were the Bulls the last few years that Krause was GM? Do the Sox have to get that bad too?

hawkjt
06-19-2012, 10:45 AM
Yeah, except for the really, really high payroll. The payroll was $51 million in 2003, 22nd in baseball, and that was even with the attendance and revenue jump associated with the All Star Game. They are now #11 in payroll despite abysmal attendance. Ownership took a bath last year with a top-five payroll, $130 million for a team that tanked and kept fans away. If the Sox would have responded by cutting payroll by $50-60 million, your point might be valid. As is, they are spending more money now than in the past. But can still call them cheap if you prefer.

Some Sox fans prefer their own reality to the facts. They have long ago decided they hate the owner and the GM and unless the Sox go wire to wire,and win 11 straight playoff games, these guys suck.

All winter some Sox fans complained about how bad this team was going to be. Then they got off to an ok start,and even had a hot streak that put them in first place in the 3rd week of June,to the surprise of the baseball world,and yet those same Sox fans are ripping on the GM and Owner more than ever. Maybe that is the case in every fan base...but sure seems prevalent over here. Those fans were maybe completely happy for about an hour in 2005,and then went back to the same mindset of being totally negative and angry about their GM and Owner.
That's entertainment,folks?

kufram
06-19-2012, 10:58 AM
I'm not fooled at all. I don't have eyes on the company balance sheet, and I did not even imply that they were broke. I said it has an impact on what they have to spend. To get the kind of pitcher that some fans want right now, or preferably yesterday, could actually take Yankees or Red Sox money.... if they could even get one... or three.

kittle42
06-19-2012, 11:15 AM
I'm not fooled at all. I don't have eyes on the company balance sheet, and I did not even imply that they were broke. I said it has an impact on what they have to spend. To get the kind of pitcher that some fans want right now, or preferably yesterday, could actually take Yankees or Red Sox money.... if they could even get one... or three.

Plus, I think that move would actually be foolish. I don't think one pitcher helps this team enough. I do think people have written off Detroit too easily, much like they gave the Sox too much credit during an awesome 13-game run. Plus, we have almost nothing to trade.

So I think the answer is stay the course and see where we are in mid-July, then make the decision whether we move AJ, Peavy, and the rest.

Harry Chappas
06-19-2012, 11:16 AM
I don't think baseball nerds understand that 95% of the people at games aren't baseball nerds.

So true. I make the mistake of assuming every Sox fan I meet is like a WSI poster. I start talking about the minutia of the team - the farm system, bench players, the draft - and quickly realize that they don't follow the team as closely as we do here.

SI1020
06-19-2012, 11:25 AM
I'm not fooled at all. I don't have eyes on the company balance sheet, and I did not even imply that they were broke. I said it has an impact on what they have to spend. To get the kind of pitcher that some fans want right now, or preferably yesterday, could actually take Yankees or Red Sox money.... if they could even get one... or three. OK. I just always had a problem with that 50 cents crap Kenny used to pull. The White Sox have resources, they just don't seem to use them wisely the last few years, and when things go bad it's time to cry poor again. I'm tired of it. Get your act together. A major opportunity, maybe once in a lifetime, was lost after the WS victory in 2005.

Harry Chappas
06-19-2012, 11:25 AM
Anyone with half a brain could see that Kenny was just updating Danks condition at that point with the info he had at that point,after being asked a direct question. We have some real idiot fans on this board,who would blame Kenny W. for the summer heat if they could.

Most of the fans on here were mad at Robin about the decision to pull Quintana,and now they rip on Kenny for talking to Robin about it? Jesus H Christ...we have the most fickle fans in sports history,by a mile .

I think the larger point is that most GMs don't second-guess their managers in the press although I read the linked article and didn't see any mention of a conversation between Williams and Ventura regarding Quintana's quick hook. Then again, most GMs don't stake their career on a completely inexperienced manager, so nothing about the Sox is "normal."

If there's any "silver lining" in a June swoon, Kenny won't be GM next year. This organization needs an overhaul in the worst way.

Golden Sox
06-19-2012, 11:45 AM
The 12-3 loss was terrible. As far as their attendance, 33,000 on a Monday Night isn't a bad crowd. It was the 2nd biggest in MLB last night. Their premier game prices have hurt attendance the last two years. Other than Opening Day none of these Premier games have sold out. The games against the Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox and Dodgers have been tremendously overpriced. Evidently the White Sox would rather have 33,000 at Premier Prices than 38,000 at regular prices. They're charging Premier Prices against the Brewers this weekend which should hold down the crowds. If anything they should reduce the tickets in the upper deck the rest of the season like they did against Toronto a few weeks ago.

SOX41
06-19-2012, 11:56 AM
They may sell a few more tix if they werent trying to gouge fans and prospective ticket buyers with "dynamic pricing" at levels well in excess of the "initial stated prices" and the secondary market values -they'd sell more tickets. I know they have had selected mark downs that have been successful (UD last homestand against Toronto), but these have not been consistently utilized and arent in the 3 games against the blue team. What that tells me is that they are fine with 33k last night and 25-28k the next 2 nights rather than 38k and 33-35k for the 3 games. In my mind that completely negates the extra 20k people that may go to games enjoy themselves and want to come back.

My long winded point here is they cant just say "park's not full, fans are bad" when some of the issue is based on a conscious business decision re: ticket pricing. Its not all fans fault, there are layers to this.

Lip Man 1
06-19-2012, 12:36 PM
This and That:

I'd be shocked if JR ever "fired" Kenny. He might be kicked upstairs, he might resign himself for say health reasons...but fired? Don't think so.

Remember JR personally told Kenny's parents when the Sox were trying to sign him and leave Stanford that "he'd take care of their son..."

Given that personal pledge and the loyalty factor I can't see it happening.

My views on the attendance issue are known but I'll briefly restate them.

Why the problems? It's not hard to understand.

(In no particular order)

* Anger / frustration over perceived high ticket prices and the way tickets are sold.

* Three losing seasons in the past five years. Being only a few games over .500 since the start of the 2006 season. MEDIOCRITY.

* Ozzie's ripping, insulting comments about the fan base the past few years

* Poor home record the past few years starting in 2011. It doesn't help when in the past few weeks you've lost four games, all at home, to teams currently among the worst in baseball to say nothing of losing home series to two other teams that are very poor earlier this year.

Lip

kufram
06-19-2012, 01:14 PM
Plus, I think that move would actually be foolish. I don't think one pitcher helps this team enough. I do think people have written off Detroit too easily, much like they gave the Sox too much credit during an awesome 13-game run. Plus, we have almost nothing to trade.

So I think the answer is stay the course and see where we are in mid-July, then make the decision whether we move AJ, Peavy, and the rest.


Exactly this. We've had good starting pitching and we've had poor starting pitching. We've had a lack of offense and we've had a hot offense. The bullpen has done the job and at other times not so much. All of these things are fluid. We've been on a bad pitching run. To try to move players now to fix something so streaky seems a lot more risky than seeing it through. The guys we have are just as capable of recovering from this bad streak as they are extending it. I'm going to root for them recovering. It is not beyond the realm of possibility.

Hitmen77
06-19-2012, 01:45 PM
Now that the crowds have been whittled down to pre-2005 levels, we're back to the old "can't spend money we don't have" management style. Yeah, except for the really, really high payroll. The payroll was $51 million in 2003, 22nd in baseball, and that was even with the attendance and revenue jump associated with the All Star Game. They are now #11 in payroll despite abysmal attendance. Ownership took a bath last year with a top-five payroll, $130 million for a team that tanked and kept fans away. If the Sox would have responded by cutting payroll by $50-60 million, your point might be valid. As is, they are spending more money now than in the past. But can still call them cheap if you prefer.

Thank you for putting words in my mouth :tiphat: Since I never called them cheap, I'll say that I really can't "still" call them cheap....and I don't "prefer" to call them cheap.

Not every critique of Sox management or observation of the state of the franchise in terms of revenue/payroll is a claim that they're "cheap".

KW has suggested himself that the Sox payroll flexibility is tied to attendance. With attendance dropping over the last 5 years to their current less than 2 million/season levels, I think it's pretty obvious to me that payroll will continue to trend lower. That's reality whether we as fans think the owners are cheap or not.

My point is that, when times were good, the Sox certainly spent money on veterans. But, their management (whether it's KW, JR or their underlings) failed to stock up enough talent in the organization to either 1) fill some more of the needs at the major league level or 2) trade some prospects to acquire veterans. KW was great at doing the latter a few years ago, but I think the talent pool is too thin at this point to do much of that now.

If someone disagrees with this, fine. Feel free to honestly discuss why payroll will or will not be just fine. But, don't pull this crap of twisting my words and saying I'm just sitting around calling Sox ownership cheap. :rolleyes:

EDIT: by the way, IMO it would have been pretty improbable for the Sox to cut their payroll to $50-60M last offseason even if they wanted to. Dunn, Peavy and Rios were owed a combined $43M for 2012 if I'm not mistaken. Those contracts weren't going anywhere.

Hitmen77
06-19-2012, 01:51 PM
Some Sox fans prefer their own reality to the facts. They have long ago decided they hate the owner and the GM and unless the Sox go wire to wire,and win 11 straight playoff games, these guys suck.



Since you were replying to OldRoman's reply to me, I'd like to point out that some Sox fans also prefer their own reality of saying things that other posters never said.

I don't "hate the owner and GM unless the Sox go wire to wire." If you want to debate what I said, fine. I may very well be way off base on my observations...wouldn't be the first time. But, I'm not going to reply to someone else's mischaracterization of what I said.

But, in reply to the other posts about how much money the Sox make/have and the increased value of the franchise, etc., I really don't know. It's an interesting discussion. Some fans will indeed gripe no matter what. But, some of the points raised here are an interesting discussion. I think it's not simply angry fans who are never satisfied.

IMO, it's a different issue of whether Sox ownership is willing to spend enough vs. the question of whether KW and his team is making the right moves with the resources he's being given by his boss.

Of course, they're not totally separate issues. Is the Sox farm system thin on talent because the people KW hired to run the farm system have done a poor job? Or is it because JR simply doesn't believe in putting money in the farm system?

TommyGavinFloyd
06-19-2012, 01:52 PM
* Poor home record the past few years starting in 2011. It doesn't help when in the past few weeks you've lost four games, all at home, to teams currently among the worst in baseball to say nothing of losing home series to two other teams that are very poor earlier this year.



I think this is an understated reason for bad attendance. A small reason, but it's valid. Who wants to go and spend all that money when it seems like they lose all the time? Just think about the crowd yesterday, if you actually did pay the top dollar they wanted for this series, and a few days before they decide they're going to start Zach Stewart, and end up getting their asses kicked by 9 runs. Is that going to make people want to come back?

I know you can't expect a win but it sure does help. I know when I go and they lose I'm in no hurry to return.

Noneck
06-19-2012, 01:57 PM
Ownership took a bath last year with a top-five payroll, $130 million for a team that tanked and kept fans away.

A team whose value increases 14% (according to Forbes) from 2011 to 2012 is not taking a "bath".

Lip Man 1
06-19-2012, 01:59 PM
And that hasn't "lost money" according to two sources I have that are close to the Board of Directors since (direct quote) "the late 80's."

Lip

TheOldRoman
06-19-2012, 02:15 PM
A team whose value increases 14% (according to Forbes) from 2011 to 2012 is not taking a "bath".By all accounts, the Forbes numbers are educated guesses with no inside information. Baseball has never opened up any of its books.

Noneck
06-19-2012, 02:17 PM
By all accounts, the Forbes numbers are educated guesses with no inside information. Baseball has never opened up any of its books.

So then your comment is based on what? Mine at least has a some what reliable source.

TheOldRoman
06-19-2012, 02:19 PM
My point is that, when times were good, the Sox certainly spent money on veterans. But, their management (whether it's KW, JR or their underlings) failed to stock up enough talent in the organization to either 1) fill some more of the needs at the major league level or 2) trade some prospects to acquire veterans. KW was great at doing the latter a few years ago, but I think the talent pool is too thin at this point to do much of that now.I'm sorry that I misinterpreted your quote. You are correct here, and this is something which many of the fans calling the team cheap won't accept. The team has spent lots of money, that is beyond debate. You can certainly say they spent it poorly, but you can't argue that it wasn't spent. They should have made efforts to improve the farm system over the past years. But I don't think them not spending more on scouting had to do with them being cheap, it's just that they preferred to spend on other things.

Hitmen77
06-19-2012, 02:19 PM
By all accounts, the Forbes numbers are educated guesses with no inside information. Baseball has never opened up any of its books.

Franchise value isn't totally the same as revenue either. They could have lost money (and I'm not saying that they did) in 2011 and still have the value of the franchise go up.

asindc
06-19-2012, 02:22 PM
A team whose value increases 14% (according to Forbes) from 2011 to 2012 is not taking a "bath".

That guess, if accurate, would reflect on paper value rather than on hand resources.

Hitmen77
06-19-2012, 02:27 PM
I'm sorry that I misinterpreted your quote. You are correct here, and this is something which many of the fans calling the team cheap won't accept. The team has spent lots of money, that is beyond debate. You can certainly say they spent it poorly, but you can't argue that it wasn't spent. They should have made efforts to improve the farm system over the past years. But I don't think them not spending more on scouting had to do with them being cheap, it's just that they preferred to spend on other things.

Sounds good. :thumbsup:

We're at least in partial agreement on this. I think it could be debated whether the Sox could/should spend more, but they have indeed spent a lot of money over the last few years. It's more a matter of whether they've spent at least some of that money poorly.

I also think you're right about the scouting/draft/player development spending. It isn't so much being cheap, it sounds to me that this is more a philosophy of Sox ownership to not put more of their resources into the farm system.

Noneck
06-19-2012, 02:31 PM
That guess, if accurate, would reflect on paper value rather than on hand resources.

Yes like the paper value on the dodgers went up 10% from 2010 to 2011. Then the team was sold and it showed an actual increase in value in 2012 of well over 50%. My point is that I see no evidence that the Sox took a "bath" in 2011.

TheOldRoman
06-19-2012, 02:48 PM
So then your comment is based on what? Mine at least has a some what reliable source.It's a guess, knowing what I have heard about how much ownership spends. They spend not on what they took in the previous year, but based on projected revenue. I have read that they more often than not make a very small profit with this stragety, with the only windfall coming in 2005. They were expecting huge things in 2011, coming off an 88 win season and adding Dunn. They figured the team would win and fans would flock to the park. They increased payroll $21 million from 2010. However, they drew almost 200,000 fewer fans from 2010. I don't see how they could have made money in that scenario.

Frater Perdurabo
06-19-2012, 02:51 PM
Also, it may be possible that they may spend a lot on scouts and minor league coaches, but that because this is an organization that values loyalty over performance excellence, they may pay high salaries to mediocre scouts and minor league coaches.

Lip Man 1
06-19-2012, 03:04 PM
The sense that I have gotten in talking to a lot of folks over the years is to put it simply this, JR does not like to and has never liked to pay on "potential".

That's why the Sox have never placed a priority on the minor league system and why they have spent the least amount on minor league signings over the past five years before this draft.

Plus JR and certain agents have never gotten along and the Sox don't deal with them unless they absolutely have to (and even then in those rare cases, they hold their noses when doing so.)

Lip

Frontman
06-19-2012, 03:10 PM
Mark me down as one who won't shed a tear if KW steps down after this season. His act has gotten old. Might not be where we were on Ozzie by the end of last season, but he's getting there.

Noneck
06-19-2012, 03:13 PM
It's a guess, knowing what I have heard about how much ownership spends. They spend not on what they took in the previous year, but based on projected revenue. I have read that they more often than not make a very small profit with this stragety, with the only windfall coming in 2005. They were expecting huge things in 2011, coming off an 88 win season and adding Dunn. They figured the team would win and fans would flock to the park. They increased payroll $21 million from 2010. However, they drew almost 200,000 fewer fans from 2010. I don't see how they could have made money in that scenario.

With the sweet lease they have, TV money and maybe even bud man money, it may be next to impossible for this team to lose money. And even if they actually do lose some money during a year, the franchises worth increases because of the above. Its a sweet thing to own a MLB club these days, I have read they all make money, one way or the other.

kittle42
06-19-2012, 03:16 PM
The sense that I have gotten in talking to a lot of folks over the years is to put it simply this, JR does not like to and has never liked to pay on "potential".

Except for the bargain-basement, no-experience manager. But then again, that's the point you're trying to make - potential is OK if it is dirt cheap.

TheOldRoman
06-19-2012, 03:23 PM
Also, it may be possible that they may spend a lot on scouts and minor league coaches, but that because this is an organization that values loyalty over performance excellence, they may pay high salaries to mediocre scouts and minor league coaches.

I don't think that's it. Reinsy has been said to be loyal to a fault, but those are to the people who are in his office in a daily basis, be it a GM, manager, or a underacheiving hitting coach who goes in there to whine how mean people are to him. JR might not even know who the scouts are, as they are always on the road and can probably just email their stuff to the GM.

With the sweet lease they have, TV money and maybe even bud man money, it may be next to impossible for this team to lose money. And even if they actually do lose some money during a year, the franchises worth increases because of the above. Its a sweet thing to own a MLB club these days, I have read they all make money, one way or the other.The franchise worth increasing doesn't do anything for a team any given year. It doesn't help until the team or its shares are sold. Clearly, the Sox have made their fare share of mistakes under Reinsdorf. However, I think he has run the team like a business. If he saw they were in a position to compete, he generally spent more money, knowing that getting to the playoffs would greatly increase revenue. I believe what I heard, which is that the team does a little better than break even each year (but rarely loses money). That being said, I don't think they would have passed up some the opportunity to patch a few glaring holes (5th starter in 2003) over a couple million dollars if they weren't close to their income projections.

Lip Man 1
06-19-2012, 04:11 PM
I recall Kenny offering Kenny Rogers a million dollar offer around that time period Roman you are talking about.

The Twins offered much more and he pitched very well for them in fact he clinched the division at U.S. Cellular that September. I think he won 14 games that year?

Sometimes Kenny has tried to 'low ball' players and it has come back to bite him.

Lip

TheOldRoman
06-19-2012, 04:25 PM
I recall Kenny offering Kenny Rogers a million dollar offer around that time period Roman you are talking about.

The Twins offered much more and he pitched very well for them in fact he clinched the division at U.S. Cellular that September. I think he won 14 games that year?

Sometimes Kenny has tried to 'low ball' players and it has come back to bite him.

LipUnless you think Kenny gets a cut of the "leftovers" the team doesn't spend, it wouldn't make sense for him to lowball and miss out on a player without spending the money elsewhere. If he thought Rogers would have won them the division and he had a few extra millions to spend, he would have signed him.

DickAllen72
06-19-2012, 05:38 PM
Funny, because I just read that KW said he would not let Viciedo be moved to 3b because it would screw up his confidence and his offensive production.

RKMeibalane
06-19-2012, 05:57 PM
Funny, because I just read that KW said he would not let Viciedo be moved to 3b because it would screw up his confidence and his offensive production.

Which is exactly why no one should place any stock in what comes out of his mouth.

:reinsy

"Kenny, I want you to have Ventura move Viciedo to third base."

:KW

"That's gold, Jerry! Gold!"

:hurt

"No doubt about it!"

:ohno

"What did we do to deserve this?"

:reinsy

"Just win and lose with glee, and never complain!"

Lip Man 1
06-19-2012, 06:08 PM
Roman:

No I don't although I've spoken to other former players who felt that another G.M. with the Sox in the past did.

Lip

DickAllen72
06-19-2012, 06:11 PM
KW said Viciedo wasn't as bad as people think at 3B and that he could play there in an emergency but he also said that he'd probably be "scared to death" right now at 3B so he's "probably best where he is."

Zisk77
06-19-2012, 06:24 PM
Do you guys peeing your pants on the tank playing 3b might be over reacting to the possible context of this suggestion? Maybe Kenny suggested Tank playing 3b during IL games in the national ballpark so Tank, Dunn, and Konerko could stay in the line-up together and stay hot? Then he would go back to LF when the nL/il portion of the schedule was over...maybe, huh? The idea of Dunn playing Lf was frightening too, but he didn't embarass himself.

balke
06-19-2012, 08:30 PM
Some Sox fans prefer their own reality to the facts. They have long ago decided they hate the owner and the GM and unless the Sox go wire to wire,and win 11 straight playoff games, these guys suck.

All winter some Sox fans complained about how bad this team was going to be. Then they got off to an ok start,and even had a hot streak that put them in first place in the 3rd week of June,to the surprise of the baseball world,and yet those same Sox fans are ripping on the GM and Owner more than ever. Maybe that is the case in every fan base...but sure seems prevalent over here. Those fans were maybe completely happy for about an hour in 2005,and then went back to the same mindset of being totally negative and angry about their GM and Owner.
That's entertainment,folks?



I went to the first game of Cards v. Sox. There were 40,000+ people there on a Tuesday during Game 1 of the NBA playoffs. I believe the Cards were second to last in the division at the time? When's the last time U.S. Cellular had 40,000 people show up? St. Louis' average attendance is DOUBLE what the Sox have right now. What's going on?

Brian26
06-19-2012, 08:37 PM
I went to the first game of Cards v. Sox. There were 40,000+ people there on a Tuesday during Game 1 of the NBA playoffs. I believe the Cards were second to last in the division at the time? When's the last time U.S. Cellular had 40,000 people show up? St. Louis' average attendance is DOUBLE what the Sox have right now. What's going on?

The Cardinals won the World Series last year, so they sold a bunch of season ticket packages based on that. The Sox saw a dramatic increase in attendance in 2006 as well.

balke
06-19-2012, 08:44 PM
The Cardinals won the World Series last year, so they sold a bunch of season ticket packages based on that. The Sox saw a dramatic increase in attendance in 2006 as well.

I get that - but I'm pretty surprised Cubs @ Sox is at 32,000. That's like an average weekend game for the Sox. Young electric ace - check. Cy Young winner pitching well - check. Top 5 homerun hitter in baseball - check. Young exciting HR hitter - check. MVP pace season from best hitter - check.

This team has some fun stuff to watch right now and noone cares. Even brought back Robin Ventura and nothing. I was mad about MB going to the Marlins and just how bad these guys were last year... but this team right now is fun to watch. It baffles me.

CWSpalehoseCWS
06-19-2012, 10:59 PM
In all fairness, with the way Hudson had made some plays at 3B, Viciedo probably can't be much worse. But saying that, that does not mean I want to see Viciedo at 3B.

WhiteSox5187
06-19-2012, 11:05 PM
In all fairness, with the way Hudson had made some plays at 3B, Viciedo probably can't be much worse. But saying that, that does not mean I want to see Viciedo at 3B.

Well, moving Hudson to third base was Kenny's idea too so he'd be wrong twice.

DSpivack
06-19-2012, 11:10 PM
I went to the first game of Cards v. Sox. There were 40,000+ people there on a Tuesday during Game 1 of the NBA playoffs. I believe the Cards were second to last in the division at the time? When's the last time U.S. Cellular had 40,000 people show up? St. Louis' average attendance is DOUBLE what the Sox have right now. What's going on?

The Cardinals won the World Series last year, so they sold a bunch of season ticket packages based on that. The Sox saw a dramatic increase in attendance in 2006 as well.

That and the Cardinals have always drawn well, and their fan base stretches across a wide swath of the midwest and plains states. An acquaintance of mine in college came from a family of diehard Cardinals fans from South Dakota, and she said many of her friends growing up were big Cardinals fans, as well. Yet I had been to St. Louis more often and attended more Cardinals home games than she did. The Sox have no such regional advantage.

mahagga73
06-19-2012, 11:16 PM
I find the fact that Kenny would even think of moving Dayan to third pretty scary. And as for his reluctance to "expound the [attendance issue]" because he "gets buried on it," by even bringing it up he is already sort of blaming the fans for not showing up, just not directly.

I really hope he steps down at the end of the year.
I agree, this team has no direction. And I just want to do bad things when he starts that attendance BS every year. Same week they are losing a home series to a horrendous team ,hated by most all of us.Not good timing.

Brian26
06-19-2012, 11:18 PM
This team has some fun stuff to watch right now and noone cares. Even brought back Robin Ventura and nothing. I was mad about MB going to the Marlins and just how bad these guys were last year... but this team right now is fun to watch. It baffles me.

It is?

Lip Man 1
06-19-2012, 11:18 PM
Mahagga:

AND losing a home series to the A's and the Royals and the Astros.

Talked with someone in the front office today and they say there are other factors involved in the attendance problem (they wouldn't say what those were) but agreed that playing poorly at home and losing to some of the worst teams in baseball isn't helping matters.

Lip

mahagga73
06-19-2012, 11:27 PM
That and the Cardinals have always drawn well, and their fan base stretches across a wide swath of the midwest and plains states. An acquaintance of mine in college came from a family of diehard Cardinals fans from South Dakota, and she said many of her friends growing up were big Cardinals fans, as well. Yet I had been to St. Louis more often and attended more Cardinals home games than she did. The Sox have no such regional advantage.
The Cardinals have had basically thr entire southwest and large parts of the midwest under their control for decades. Through radio first and TV they have built a huge area to draw from.There was little or nothing past the east coast for decades in that huge part of the country.Probably just as important is the fact they have ,for the most part,been a winning machine,
WS winner in most eras.Just in my lifetime,I am 39,I have already seen 3 WS victories,and 6 appearances.If the Sox had those same numbers they would be a heck of a lot more popular too.The Sox haven't marketed worth squat to anywhere outside NW Indiana or Chicagoland in my opinion either. They even took their games of free TV and put them on sportsvision at one point.They are on pretty much every day now on WGN or CSN,WCIU, and fortunately I get every game downstate here.But the damage was done back in the day.

mahagga73
06-19-2012, 11:28 PM
Mahagga:

AND losing a home series to the A's and the Royals and the Astros.

Talked with someone in the front office today and they say there are other factors involved in the attendance problem (they wouldn't say what those were) but agreed that playing poorly at home and losing to some of the worst teams in baseball isn't helping matters.

Lip
Losing to the Cubs really bothers me,oh how I hate them.I am seething right now. That's like losing 10 in a row to me.

Frater Perdurabo
06-19-2012, 11:33 PM
I have counseled patience, but I'm coming around to the position that KW needs to step aside or be removed as GM. Nothing personal, but the results have been lacking lately, and this is a performance-oriented business. Unfortunately, JR values loyalty over performance excellence.

balke
06-20-2012, 12:32 AM
It is?


Batting Avg 1. P. Konerko (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5908) CWS .359 2. J. Hamilton (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6679) TEX .330 3. M. Trout (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8861) LAA .323
ERA 1. C. Wilson (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7571) LAA 2.30 2. C. Sale (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8780) CWS 2.46 3. J. Weaver (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7708) LAA 2.61
Home Runs 1. A. Dunn (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6763) CWS 23 2.J. Hamilton (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6679) TEX 22 3.C. Granderson (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7455) NYY 21
RBIs 1. J. Hamilton (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6679) TEX 62 2. M. Cabrera (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7163) DET 54 3. A. Dunn (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6763) CWS 52


.5 back of the Indians. This team is good with some of the best players in baseball right now. Last 2 series have been pitiful - doesn't change the fact that the Sox have deserved more support and respect.

WhiteSox5187
06-20-2012, 12:53 AM
Batting Avg 1. P. Konerko (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5908) CWS .359 2. J. Hamilton (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6679) TEX .330 3. M. Trout (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8861) LAA .323
ERA 1. C. Wilson (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7571) LAA 2.30 2. C. Sale (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8780) CWS 2.46 3. J. Weaver (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7708) LAA 2.61
Home Runs 1. A. Dunn (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6763) CWS 23 2.J. Hamilton (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6679) TEX 22 3.C. Granderson (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7455) NYY 21
RBIs 1. J. Hamilton (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6679) TEX 62 2. M. Cabrera (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7163) DET 54 3. A. Dunn (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6763) CWS 52


.5 back of the Indians. This team is good with some of the best players in baseball right now. Last 2 series have been pitiful - doesn't change the fact that the Sox have deserved more support and respect.

Right now the Sox have three, maybe four REAL good players. Two of those players only play once every five days. Another one hits a lot of home runs but is on pace for 250 strikeouts and a batting average in the .220s which means he leaves a lot of guys on base. And Konerko is battling a sore wrist which is why he has only three extra base hits in June.

Dunn, Konerko, Peavy and Sale are all having great years but the rest of their teammates are average to below average. Two good position players and two good pitchers will not be able to carry a team anywhere by themselves. The Sox are a mediocre team with two really good position players (maybe 3 if you count AJ) and two really good pitchers. That's not enough. You can't win when only three guys in the lineup can hit consistently worth a damn and with only two solid starters.

Nellie_Fox
06-20-2012, 01:19 AM
...Reinsy fired Jerry Krause and I wouldn't count Kenny as any more secure.I would. I never saw Reinsdorf as a father figure to Krause. I think Reinsdorf would rather stab himself in the eye with a pencil than fire KW.

DSpivack
06-20-2012, 03:03 AM
I would. I never saw Reinsdorf as a father figure to Krause. I think Reinsdorf would rather stab himself in the eye with a pencil than fire KW.

Though I love basketball and the Bulls nearly as much as I am fan of the White Sox, I am less familiar with the workings and history of the Bulls than I am of the White Sox. Maybe that's simply because I haven't learned from others of that history in spending a decade on Bulls Interactive. That said, I wonder about the differences, if any, in ownership and management style between the Bulls and White Sox. Baseball definitely seems more of a love for Jerry Reinsdorf; as I understand it, he grew up in Brooklyn as a big fan of the Dodgers. That's not to say that Reinsdorf doesn't have a good deal of loyalty with the Bulls; Paxson being promoted upstairs and Gar Forman sliding into the GM role; former players such as Scottie Pippen and Stacey King (and may they rest in peace, Johnny 'Red' Kerr and Norm Van Lier) that seems similar in the many former Sox players who are still affiliated with the team. And of course the Bulls are in a much different economic situation with the White Sox, perhaps atop revenue (I don't know about this, but they do top the league in attendance each year) in the NBA each year. But I wonder if, besides all that, maybe he's willing to more risks with the Bulls, a sport he perhaps likes less? Or maybe he just lucked in to a dynasty? I don't know.

Maybe the sports are just too different to really have a fair comparison. And maybe any comparison is unfair as the ownership bases of the two teams are different. But I still wonder if there is a difference in approach there.

balke
06-20-2012, 07:49 AM
Right now the Sox have three, maybe four REAL good players. Two of those players only play once every five days. Another one hits a lot of home runs but is on pace for 250 strikeouts and a batting average in the .220s which means he leaves a lot of guys on base. And Konerko is battling a sore wrist which is why he has only three extra base hits in June.

Dunn, Konerko, Peavy and Sale are all having great years but the rest of their teammates are average to below average. Two good position players and two good pitchers will not be able to carry a team anywhere by themselves. The Sox are a mediocre team with two really good position players (maybe 3 if you count AJ) and two really good pitchers. That's not enough. You can't win when only three guys in the lineup can hit consistently worth a damn and with only two solid starters.


That's the kind of crap attitude I'm talking about. How can you talk about Dunn like that when he's 3rd in the league in RBI? Ridiculous. Also, Konerko had that same surgery on his wrist last year and pulled through just fine.

De Aza, Rios, Ramirez, Beckham, Flowers, are all good at least defensively. The rotation could use an arm - and the Sox need an answer at 3B. Otherwise this team was just in first place - and I wouldn't be surprised to see them take it back tonight. No excuses about the quality of the team right now - very few teams have studs at every position. The ones that do aren't guaranteed to win anyhow.

fusillirob1983
06-20-2012, 11:11 AM
I get that - but I'm pretty surprised Cubs @ Sox is at 32,000. That's like an average weekend game for the Sox. Young electric ace - check. Cy Young winner pitching well - check. Top 5 homerun hitter in baseball - check. Young exciting HR hitter - check. MVP pace season from best hitter - check.

This team has some fun stuff to watch right now and noone cares. Even brought back Robin Ventura and nothing. I was mad about MB going to the Marlins and just how bad these guys were last year... but this team right now is fun to watch. It baffles me.

I'm 99% sure Sox/Cubs tickets are only sold as part of multi-game ticket packages, unless they changed that this year and now sell them on an individual game basis unless you buy them on the secondary market (Stub Hub, Craigslist) in which the tickets are likely marked up from face value. I'm sure few Sox fans wanted to commit to a multi-game package earlier in the year with minimal expectations for this team. I know I intentionally waited until the beginning of May to purchase any tickets I'm sure given the minimal expectations of the Cubs as well as being the worst team in baseball has given their fans almost no reason to venture to the scary South Side.

Robin Ventura now has almost 3 months experience as a manager. Prior to this season, he had no experience as any sort of manager or coach in major or minor league baseball. Aside from being a fan favorite as a player, a lot of people may have seen this as a questionable move to make the team better. Other than taking Quintana out after 8 innings on Sunday, I have no problem with how he's done as a manager so far, but I wouldn't go to a game because he's the manager.

Wedema
06-20-2012, 11:28 AM
I'm 99% sure Sox/Cubs tickets are only sold as part of multi-game ticket packages, unless they changed that this year and now sell them on an individual game basis unless you buy them on the secondary market (Stub Hub, Craigslist) in which the tickets are likely marked up from face value. I'm sure few Sox fans wanted to commit to a multi-game package earlier in the year with minimal expectations for this team. I know I intentionally waited until the beginning of May to purchase any tickets I'm sure given the minimal expectations of the Cubs as well as being the worst team in baseball has given their fans almost no reason to venture to the scary South Side.

Robin Ventura now has almost 3 months experience as a manager. Prior to this season, he had no experience as any sort of manager or coach in major or minor league baseball. Aside from being a fan favorite as a player, a lot of people may have seen this as a questionable move to make the team better. Other than taking Quintana out after 8 innings on Sunday, I have no problem with how he's done as a manager so far, but I wouldn't go to a game because he's the manager.


For the last couple of years they have been sold as individual games. Check Ticketmaster today, there are tons of tickets available for tonight's game.

Harry Potter
06-20-2012, 11:45 AM
.5 back of the Indians. This team is good with some of the best players in baseball right now. Last 2 weeks have been pitiful - doesn't change the fact that the Sox have deserved more support and respect.

Fixed it for you

shingo10
06-20-2012, 11:51 AM
Mahagga:

AND losing a home series to the A's and the Royals and the Astros.

Talked with someone in the front office today and they say there are other factors involved in the attendance problem (they wouldn't say what those were) but agreed that playing poorly at home and losing to some of the worst teams in baseball isn't helping matters.

Lip


I don't think the series loss to the A's was in Chicago. That was where Santiago blew the game in the 14th right and was in Oakland. But yeah they've lost home series to Cubs, Royals (who are fast approaching us), and the Astros.

As far as the Sox front office goes, I still think La Russa will still be somehow involved with the Sox next season. Don't know how he gets along with Kenny but if there needs to be reshuffling then I can see that happening.

Lip Man 1
06-20-2012, 12:36 PM
Balke:

Just to make a point, the Sox were in first place until last night....at three games over .500.

That's the worst number of games, above absolute mediocrity, leading a division in baseball.

Just so you understand that.

I understand why that doesn't get the fan base "energized and excited."

It also says a ton about the division.

Lip

Golden Sox
06-20-2012, 12:38 PM
The last 2 games against the Bad Guys from the Northside. have been horrible. Both of these games brought back bad memories of the 2011 season. I hope we can turn it around tonight and start a new winning streak.

SI1020
06-20-2012, 12:39 PM
That's the kind of crap attitude I'm talking about. I thought it was balanced and realistic.

tstrike2000
06-20-2012, 01:05 PM
This and That:

I'd be shocked if JR ever "fired" Kenny. He might be kicked upstairs, he might resign himself for say health reasons...but fired? Don't think so.

Remember JR personally told Kenny's parents when the Sox were trying to sign him and leave Stanford that "he'd take care of their son..."

Good for JR, and he fulfilled that promise. And KW's been well taken care of, and he's also not 20 years old anymore. With JR's loyalty knowing no bounds, Kenny's safe unless he quits. However, it's soon gotta be time for Kenny to move on if this keeps up. With nothing to trade except for some of our mlb roster, who knows what we'll get in return, but perhaps there's a few guys left from the late 90's Indians or early 2000's Minnesota Twins that we can pick up.

balke
06-20-2012, 02:34 PM
I thought it was balanced and realistic.


I'm just saying - if that's the way people feel then I don't want to hear one word of anger about trading big names away at the deadline even if the Sox are in first place.

Dunn, Rios, Peavy - still all make a ton of money and if fans don't "appreciate the game" then cut them loose.

This is the very definition of selling high on some guys who were absolutely pitiful one season ago. AJ and Konerko are fair game to me as well. Let Konerko win another if the fans don't care.

Not good enough for you to be around .500 in first place? Let's see how you like it in dead last during a rebuild.

WhiteSox5187
06-20-2012, 02:48 PM
I'm just saying - if that's the way people feel then I don't want to hear one word of anger about trading big names away at the deadline even if the Sox are in first place.

Dunn, Rios, Peavy - still all make a ton of money and if fans don't "appreciate the game" then cut them loose.

This is the very definition of selling high on some guys who were absolutely pitiful one season ago. AJ and Konerko are fair game to me as well. Let Konerko win another if the fans don't care.

Not good enough for you to be around .500 in first place? Let's see how you like it in dead last during a rebuild.

We're two games over and in second place and we could very well be under .500 and in third by the end of the week. I am not saying sell now but the Sox need some sort of direction here and if this trend of mediocrity continues into July I think it makes sense to give up on 2012 and start looking towards 2013 and 2014 to be competitive. I, for one, would rather see the White Sox do that than get some overpriced veteran and finish in 3rd just slightly over .500, that is assuming of course they continue to play this poorly.

SCCWS
06-20-2012, 03:05 PM
We're two games over and in second place and we could very well be under .500 and in third by the end of the week. I am not saying sell now but the Sox need some sort of direction here and if this trend of mediocrity continues into July I think it makes sense to give up on 2012 and start looking towards 2013 and 2014 to be competitive. I, for one, would rather see the White Sox do that than get some overpriced veteran and finish in 3rd just slightly over .500, that is assuming of course they continue to play this poorly.


I think there is another consideration. Right now the Sox are in a terrible division. That is keeping them in the race. But going back to your "some sort of direction" thought, the question arises do you buy to stay mediocre. I think if they are still competitive at the trade deadline but a great deal for the future is on the table for Peavy, maybe you do it anyway and forego 2012. If they go out and get an overpriced veteran this year and end up in the same hole next year, they may have wasted another year and find themselves with less bargaining chips.
Hopefully they either surge again or sink and make the decision easier rather than continue riding the fence.

jdm2662
06-20-2012, 03:09 PM
We're two games over and in second place and we could very well be under .500 and in third by the end of the week. I am not saying sell now but the Sox need some sort of direction here and if this trend of mediocrity continues into July I think it makes sense to give up on 2012 and start looking towards 2013 and 2014 to be competitive. I, for one, would rather see the White Sox do that than get some overpriced veteran and finish in 3rd just slightly over .500, that is assuming of course they continue to play this poorly.

The Sox have been down this route before. In 1997, they were hovering around .500, but still only 3.5 games out by the trading deadline. Yet, the Sox did what most of this board wants to do, and the Sox were the worst organization in sports for doing it. How dare they give up on the season! If the Sox are in a similar situation come trade deadline, I'd like to see how this board reacts when the Sox trade their top players. Then again, in life, no matter what, there will always people complaining about something.

The Sox are better off winning the division. Peavy and AJ will be gone next year along some other players, and there is no one in the minors to replace them. Even if they have some caliber prospects waiting in the wings, there is no guarentee they will be anything anyway. I do not advocate doing a KW special and trading for an over a hill player. Just play it out. Blowing the team up isn't going to do you any good.

Lip Man 1
06-20-2012, 03:11 PM
Balke:

I'm the biggest "win now" guy out there but even I can see this muddling around mediocrity isn't doing **** for the franchise or the fans.

IN THE LAST SIX YEARS COMBINED from the start of the 2006 season to the end of the 2011 season the Sox are a total of 20 GAMES OVER .500.

20 divided by six equals an average of about 3.3 games over .500 per season.

That's not going to win a damn thing even in a mediocre division.

They've had three winning seasons and three losing seasons in that time span. How much more mediocre can you get?

As my late father used to say, time to **** or get off the pot.

If that means a complete rebuild WITH A NEW G.M. (which is a key) than so be it.

If not then the other option to me is to bite the bullet and raise the payroll again even higher than the 127 million they had a few years ago and see if the Sox can overcome the front office mistakes by dramatically upping the talent level. That could include a new G.M. in that scenario as well.

Either way something has to be done to bust out of this mediocrity that is hamstringing this franchise since 2006.

Lip

Lip Man 1
06-20-2012, 03:15 PM
JDM:

In my opinion the Sox had more talent in 97 than today

and two the Sox weren't mired in a six year span of mediocrity in 1997.

From 91-94 they were one of the best teams in baseball. (you can include 1990 as well but that goes beyond six seasons)

Also factoring in to the equation from a fan standpoint was the hard line attitude of JR which helped drive the 94 season down the drain and rob the franchise of a great opportunity for post season glory.

94 AND 97 was to much for the fan base to take (and I don't blame them under those circumstances...)

Lip

PatK
06-20-2012, 03:16 PM
Mahagga:

AND losing a home series to the A's and the Royals and the Astros.

Talked with someone in the front office today and they say there are other factors involved in the attendance problem (they wouldn't say what those were) but agreed that playing poorly at home and losing to some of the worst teams in baseball isn't helping matters.

Lip

Horrendously overpriced tickets for some series (like the Astros) is one of the problems.

WhiteSox5187
06-20-2012, 03:36 PM
The Sox have been down this route before. In 1997, they were hovering around .500, but still only 3.5 games out by the trading deadline. Yet, the Sox did what most of this board wants to do, and the Sox were the worst organization in sports for doing it. How dare they give up on the season! If the Sox are in a similar situation come trade deadline, I'd like to see how this board reacts when the Sox trade their top players. Then again, in life, no matter what, there will always people complaining about something.

The Sox are better off winning the division. Peavy and AJ will be gone next year along some other players, and there is no one in the minors to replace them. Even if they have some caliber prospects waiting in the wings, there is no guarentee they will be anything anyway. I do not advocate doing a KW special and trading for an over a hill player. Just play it out. Blowing the team up isn't going to do you any good.

Lip already touched on this below but a lot of the anger from the White Flag Trade was also because it was only three years after the strike which Jerry played a big part in and killed the White Sox's best chance at back to back playoff appearances for the first time in their history and a real good shot at their first World Series appearance in 35 years.

On top of that there was the fact that that very off season the White Sox went out and added a high priced free agent slugger in Albert Belle and a high priced free agent pitcher in Jamie Navarro (after passing up the chance to get Clemens) after narrowly missing the wild card in 1996. Plus in '97 the core of the team wasn't that old; Thomas, Ventura, and Alvarez were all under 30, they had some promising young players in Ray Durham and Mike Cameron who were contributing as well. Now our best players are all over 30 (except for Sale) and we have one position player under 28 who is contributing somewhat.

shingo10
06-20-2012, 03:41 PM
The Sox may be mediocre for the past couple of seasons but they were NOT mediocre in 2006. Yes they finished in third but they won 90 games and that was probably one of the most talented Sox teams ever.

They choked big time in the second half thanks to dreadful starting pitching.

I would say from 2007 on yeah pretty mediocre. 2007 was pitiful, 2008 was what it was, 09, 10, and 11 were my least favorite Sox teams ever. They were gutless.

This year they seem to give a crap about what happens and even after going on this horrendous slide they are in second. Plus they have been without their opening day starter for a long time as well as Morel who was never healthy to begin with. I don't care how crappy the division is if you have a chance to make the postseason in baseball then you better go for it. Selling at this point would make things exponentially worse in my opinion. If the Sox are in contention in August and September people will come support them.

WhiteSox5187
06-20-2012, 03:51 PM
The Sox may be mediocre for the past couple of seasons but they were NOT mediocre in 2006. Yes they finished in third but they won 90 games and that was probably one of the most talented Sox teams ever.

They choked big time in the second half thanks to dreadful starting pitching.

I would say from 2007 on yeah pretty mediocre. 2007 was pitiful, 2008 was what it was, 09, 10, and 11 were my least favorite Sox teams ever. They were gutless.

This year they seem to give a crap about what happens and even after going on this horrendous slide they are in second. Plus they have been without their opening day starter for a long time as well as Morel who was never healthy to begin with. I don't care how crappy the division is if you have a chance to make the postseason in baseball then you better go for it. Selling at this point would make things exponentially worse in my opinion. If the Sox are in contention in August and September people will come support them.

The Sox have been in contention pretty much every August and September since 2007 and the support still hasn't been there in terms of attendance. I will say that I agree that selling right now is probably not a good idea, I think you stand pat until later in July and see where you are then. If the Sox are still playing this poorly (or maybe this inconsistently is a better word for it), I think you bite the bullet and sell. Another year of missing the playoffs with 79-84 wins doesn't do this team any good and leaves them with fewer chips available to deal.

voodoochile
06-20-2012, 03:56 PM
Without getting into the whole last 6 years thing, I have to say that otherwise I agree with Lip :o:

This team has little young talent on it that can be something to build around. Guys like Beckham, Alexei and Viciedo are fine pieces to have on a strong team, but aren't guys who will form the core of a team destined for greatness. Other than that the offensive/field talent is all aging and TCM isn't young anymore either.

If the pitching staff isn't strong/healthy enough to give this team a shot then it maybe time to simply cut our losses and blow it up. Trade everyone who can be traded for value and see what you can do in a few years. Dunn will draw interest at the deadline if he continues to hit. Rios might even have some takers if the Sox eat some salary. Peavy is trade bait for sure and is almost definitely gone unless the Sos find another gear real fast. This team is falling apart at the seams at the moment. Floyd and Danks have never lived up to the promise of their first few years either. After that you've got some good bullpen talent and Qunitana (who is way too new to evaluate either way).

I'd even offer AJ and PK a chance to be traded if they decide to go because if/when Dunn and Peavy get traded this team is several years from being a contender again. I love PK and it's for that reason I would let him make the decision, not because I ever want to see him play for another team, but keeping him here to waste the last few productive years he has on a club that should be rebuilding almost from scratch is selfish.

And yes it pains me to type all of that, but right now this team is what we thought it was more so with the injuries. I hope I'm wrong and they go on some otherworldly tear and stomp to the playoffs, but I just don't see it happening.

jdm2662
06-20-2012, 03:56 PM
JDM:

In my opinion the Sox had more talent in 97 than today

and two the Sox weren't mired in a six year span of mediocrity in 1997.

From 91-94 they were one of the best teams in baseball. (you can include 1990 as well but that goes beyond six seasons)

Also factoring in to the equation from a fan standpoint was the hard line attitude of JR which helped drive the 94 season down the drain and rob the franchise of a great opportunity for post season glory.

94 AND 97 was to much for the fan base to take (and I don't blame them under those circumstances...)

Lip

Fair enough. I was one of those fans who didn't bother with baseball from 95-98. 99 I kind of causally watched, but didn't really care until the start of the 2000 season.

But, to me, I don't see the point of blowing the team up if you are in the same situation. Now, if you are under .500 and 6+ games out, sure, do it. Then again, does anyone want Kenny Williams making these trades? TEams don't trade their top prospects anymore. I don't, so that's why I say just stick with it.

Tragg
06-20-2012, 04:20 PM
The only reason to trade big names away is to save JR some money. Williams won't deliver much in the way of young talent for any of those guys, including Peavy (who should bring a quality prospect).

Frontman
06-20-2012, 04:53 PM
I love it that people are wondering why the Sox don't sell out for Sox v Cubs when the cheapest ticket is nearly 50 bucks a pop to see them take on a sub .500 ball club.

What part of the product hasn't been good for a few years is hard for folks to understand?

What part of the economy being so dang messed up is so hard to understand?

I'm sorry, I work my tail off, and I don't complain about it. When I can afford to go, I will go. But I won't pay over-inflated prices to see a "rivalry" game that MEANS NOTHING besides one game out of 162 against the God awful Cubs.

kittle42
06-20-2012, 05:19 PM
Exhibit 1 of Win and They Will Come:

I was planning on going tonight and to a MIL game. They stink right now. I'm not going.

Of course, I would have just bought tickets that had already been sold anyway, so maybe the Sox don't care.

voodoochile
06-20-2012, 05:23 PM
The only reason to trade big names away is to save JR some money. Williams won't deliver much in the way of young talent for any of those guys, including Peavy (who should bring a quality prospect).

Well maybe he gets lucky and catches some lightning in a bottle or some good young arms Coop can work some magic with. At the moment this team is going nowhere slowly. In addition to saving JR money it frees up money to sign FA's this offseason. Every penny saved now can be used then. This team needs a major overhaul quickly or it needs to be allowed to hit bottom and try to rebuild. Because right now it's looking like several years of mediocrity at best.

fusillirob1983
06-20-2012, 06:03 PM
For the last couple of years they have been sold as individual games. Check Ticketmaster today, there are tons of tickets available for tonight's game.

Touche. Regardless, the cheapest seat is $42 and $47 after ticketmaster fees.

kittle42
06-20-2012, 06:32 PM
Well maybe he gets lucky and catches some lightning in a bottle or some good young arms Coop can work some magic with. At the moment this team is going nowhere slowly. In addition to saving JR money it frees up money to sign FA's this offseason. Every penny saved now can be used then. This team needs a major overhaul quickly or it needs to be allowed to hit bottom and try to rebuild. Because right now it's looking like several years of mediocrity at best.

That's been the problem for several years now. But now, it has to become obvious to them that they can't keep half-assing "contending" every season...doesn't it? :(:

SoxSpeed22
06-20-2012, 06:47 PM
That's been the problem for several years now. But now, it has to become obvious to them that they can't keep half-assing "contending" every season...doesn't it? :(:They have been changing their MO somewhat. Most of our talent was someone else's baggage, whether or not it was a reclamation project (Thorny, Floyd, Humber) or a veteran that they had to spend a lot of money on.
This year is a **** or get off the pot year for KW. If he's prepared to try something different, he just might stay on longer.

Tragg
06-20-2012, 08:54 PM
Well maybe he gets lucky and catches some lightning in a bottle or some good young arms Coop can work some magic with. At the moment this team is going nowhere slowly. In addition to saving JR money it frees up money to sign FA's this offseason. Every penny saved now can be used then. This team needs a major overhaul quickly or it needs to be allowed to hit bottom and try to rebuild. Because right now it's looking like several years of mediocrity at best.
I find it hard to believe that Williams sent his scouts to eyeball the farms of the teams interested in E Jax, and they came up with Zack Stewart as a viable high ceiling prospect. And then when you throw in a middle relieve we didn't need, I just wonder what's going on. Prospects fail, and I get that, but where did anyone see any ceiling on this guy beyond maybe a 5th starter if he develops, especially with such an experienced prospect.

voodoochile
06-20-2012, 10:32 PM
That's been the problem for several years now. But now, it has to become obvious to them that they can't keep half-assing "contending" every season...doesn't it? :(:

If acquiring Rios, Dunn and Peavy is half-assing it, sign me up every time. I disagree that this has been the MO. There are very valid reasons for some of the moves the Sox made, but the window is closed now and they've got a bloated payroll. But, we can rehash all those arguments again if you want. I just don't see the point.

voodoochile
06-20-2012, 10:33 PM
I find it hard to believe that Williams sent his scouts to eyeball the farms of the teams interested in E Jax, and they came up with Zack Stewart as a viable high ceiling prospect. And then when you throw in a middle relieve we didn't need, I just wonder what's going on. Prospects fail, and I get that, but where did anyone see any ceiling on this guy beyond maybe a 5th starter if he develops, especially with such an experienced prospect.
The Jackson trade was a payroll move plain and simple. The Sox were not going to get a ton for him. However they have more to trade this year and more established pieces who appear to be back to performing at or above career norms, thus there will be more offers and an ability to pick and choose more.

The Immigrant
06-20-2012, 10:39 PM
The Jackson trade was a payroll move plain and simple. The Sox were not going to get a ton for him. However they have more to trade this year and more established pieces who appear to be back to performing at or above career norms, thus there will be more offers and an ability to pick and choose more.

Right, that trade was all about dumping Teahen.

asindc
06-20-2012, 11:35 PM
The Jackson trade was a payroll move plain and simple. The Sox were not going to get a ton for him. However they have more to trade this year and more established pieces who appear to be back to performing at or above career norms, thus there will be more offers and an ability to pick and choose more.

Right, that trade was all about dumping Teahen.

Don't worry guys, Tragg will conveniently "forget" about the Teahen salary dump
the next time he brings this up again.

WhiteSox5187
06-20-2012, 11:37 PM
If acquiring Rios, Dunn and Peavy is half-assing it, sign me up every time. I disagree that this has been the MO. There are very valid reasons for some of the moves the Sox made, but the window is closed now and they've got a bloated payroll. But, we can rehash all those arguments again if you want. I just don't see the point.

Other than the Dunn signing the Rios and Peavy trade were not necessarily half-assing but they were high risk and expensive moves. Peavy was on the DL when we acquired him (and was then subsequently rushed to recover from his injury) and every scout was saying that Rios looked like he just didn't give a damn anymore. Then in typical White Sox fashion they played Rios out of position for two and half years.

doublem23
06-21-2012, 08:54 AM
Peavy was on the DL with a foot injury and then went and threw 127 innings for the Sox before his back injury. If you really think the two of them are connected, then I have a great deal on some pristine oceanfront property for you in Nebraska. You won't want to miss it!

asindc
06-21-2012, 09:30 AM
Other than the Dunn signing the Rios and Peavy trade were not necessarily half-assing but they were high risk and expensive moves. Peavy was on the DL when we acquired him (and was then subsequently rushed to recover from his injury) and every scout was saying that Rios looked like he just didn't give a damn anymore. Then in typical White Sox fashion they played Rios out of position for two and half years.

Everything I've read and heard on the issue from Peavy himself and Sox management is that Peavy rushed himself back.

SI1020
06-21-2012, 09:52 AM
Peavy was on the DL with a foot injury and then went and threw 127 innings for the Sox before his back injury. If you really think the two of them are connected, then I have a great deal on some pristine oceanfront property for you in Nebraska. You won't want to miss it! Actually I have a good amount of respect for your baseball IQ, but I'm surprised that you would dismiss a foot injury like you just did. Pitchers can and do alter their mechanics to compensate for foot, leg or knee problems. Once you do that you're more vulnerable to an arm, elbow or shoulder injury. Dizzy Dean was a long time ago, but that's what happened to him, and he's not the only one. I'm not saying that is the case with Peavy. He looked great in his 3 starts in September of 09. I noticed a change in his motion prior to blowing out his latissimus dorsi. I'm not claiming anything, just that you shouldn't dismiss Peavy's ankle injury out of hand.

asindc
06-21-2012, 10:16 AM
Actually I have a good amount of respect for your baseball IQ, but I'm surprised that you would dismiss a foot injury like you just did. Pitchers can and do alter their mechanics to compensate for foot, leg or knee problems. Once you do that you're more vulnerable to an arm, elbow or shoulder injury. Dizzy Dean was a long time ago, but that's what happened to him, and he's not the only one. I'm not saying that is the case with Peavy. He looked great in his 3 starts in September of 09. I noticed a change in his motion prior to blowing out his latissimus dorsi. I'm not claiming anything, just that you shouldn't dismiss Peavy's ankle injury out of hand.

What about the 127 innings pitched before the lat injury? Seems like a lot of innings between injuries to suggest a connection between the two.

doublem23
06-21-2012, 02:11 PM
Actually I have a good amount of respect for your baseball IQ, but I'm surprised that you would dismiss a foot injury like you just did. Pitchers can and do alter their mechanics to compensate for foot, leg or knee problems. Once you do that you're more vulnerable to an arm, elbow or shoulder injury. Dizzy Dean was a long time ago, but that's what happened to him, and he's not the only one. I'm not saying that is the case with Peavy. He looked great in his 3 starts in September of 09. I noticed a change in his motion prior to blowing out his latissimus dorsi. I'm not claiming anything, just that you shouldn't dismiss Peavy's ankle injury out of hand.

Had it happened a week or two after he returned, or even within the same season, I wouldn't doubt the connection, but with 127 IP sandwiched around a full off-season, I really have a hard time believing A lead to B in this case. Both, IMO, just happened to be freak, fluke injuries that Jake has finally put behind him (thank god).

hawkjt
06-21-2012, 03:14 PM
Todays concern is just how badly PK is hurting right now?

I think it is obvious that the wrist is still bothering him.
He has had some very awkward looking swings since he returned.
The follow thru seems to usually include a grimace.

I just hope he returns to normal eventually,but wonder if it will heal with him playing.

Lip Man 1
06-21-2012, 03:54 PM
He'll play until the off season when he might have surgery.

I myself haven't read or heard anything about him hurting right now to be honest but its possible its bothering him.

Lip

white sox bill
06-21-2012, 04:47 PM
How can these injuries happen to our Sox with their superior training staff?

DickAllen72
06-21-2012, 05:27 PM
He'll play until the off season when he might have surgery.

I myself haven't read or heard anything about him hurting right now to be honest but its possible its bothering him.

Lip
Hawk has been mentioning that Paulie's wrist is still bothering him.

TheOldRoman
06-21-2012, 05:32 PM
How can these injuries happen to our Sox with their superior training staff? I don't know what you were going for there (funny? ironic?) but it failed. The Sox are recognized as having one of the best medical and training staffs in baseball. Year in, year out, the Sox have fewer days on the DL than any other team. I don't think anybody ever said the Sox' training staff could ensure no player ever got injured, so I think you are chasing windmills here.

Harry Chappas
06-21-2012, 05:37 PM
And that hasn't "lost money" according to two sources I have that are close to the Board of Directors since (direct quote) "the late 80's."

Lip

I'm no "insider" but I do have a good friend who is without question an "insider." The Sox lost $$ last year but not much (I think he said $6-$8 million) and that was with a high payroll. No one's taking a "bath."

As for "dynamic" ticket prices, I know I took my son to the Carlton Fisk Statue game. We made a last minute decision to go, so I went on the Sox website and paid, I think, $54 per ticket for section 154 (should have gone to Stub Hub). So $108 in tickets, $20 to park, and at least $50 on concessions (my son wanted to try everything). All in, I spent about $200 and left before the game went into extra innings (hard to keep a 6-year interested for that long). I'm not really complaining but I know there are a lot of families out there that couldn't afford it. A similar outing for a family of 4 would have cost over $300.

LITTLE NELL
06-21-2012, 05:45 PM
I'm no "insider" but I do have a good friend who is without question an "insider." The Sox lost $$ last year but not much (I think he said $6-$8 million) and that was with a high payroll. No one's taking a "bath."

As for "dynamic" ticket prices, I know I took my son to the Carlton Fisk Statue game. We made a last minute decision to go, so I went on the Sox website and paid, I think, $54 per ticket for section 154 (should have gone to Stub Hub). So $108 in tickets, $20 to park, and at least $50 on concessions (my son wanted to try everything). All in, I spent about $200 and left before the game went into extra innings (hard to keep a 6-year interested for that long). I'm not really complaining but I know there are a lot of families out there that couldn't afford it. A similar outing for a family of 4 would have cost over $300.

I would never spend that kind of money to see a game.
We saw the Sox in St. Pete last month, first row in the upper deck right behind home plate..20 bucks for 2 tickets and 15 to park. I can live with that.

Harry Chappas
06-21-2012, 05:55 PM
I would never spend that kind of money to see a game.
We saw the Sox in St. Pete last month, first row in the upper deck..20 bucks for 2 tickets and 15 to park. I can live with that.

I know. I was shocked. There were cheaper seats (not by much) available but I wanted to avoid the bleachers and be close to the bullpen so he could watch Floyd warm-up (before he got torched). Again, it was a lot of fun but that's not something I'm going to do again anytime soon.

With parking and concessions to make up for it, you'd think the Sox would seize the opportunity to be the "affordable" professional team in town as far as ticket prices are concerned.

Crestani
06-21-2012, 08:02 PM
If acquiring Rios, Dunn and Peavy is half-assing it, sign me up every time. I disagree that this has been the MO. There are very valid reasons for some of the moves the Sox made, but the window is closed now and they've got a bloated payroll. But, we can rehash all those arguments again if you want. I just don't see the point.


Except the long term guaranteed contract given to Danks this year after his prior mediocrity..?? How did this ever get approved..??:scratch:

RKMeibalane
06-21-2012, 08:23 PM
Except the long term guaranteed contract given to Danks this year after his prior mediocrity..?? How did this ever get approved..??:scratch:

And Williams wonders why he has no money to spend. He doesn't realize that if a team invests money in a player who has a history of under-performing, they're not going to be able to afford other players that they need to improve the team.

But hey, it's the fans' fault for not going to more games.

Tragg
06-22-2012, 10:26 AM
The Jackson trade was a payroll move plain and simple. The Sox were not going to get a ton for him. However they have more to trade this year and more established pieces who appear to be back to performing at or above career norms, thus there will be more offers and an ability to pick and choose more.
Okay.
But then I look at when WE traded for Jackson, Az was 20 below and looking to dump salary and their pitcher with his 5+ ERA....Ken Williams delivers his best pitching prospect - a prospect who was ont he rise - plus his best low minors pitching prospect.
Give 3 of our top 5 prospects for Swisher...dump him for utility infielders and no serious prospects.
That stuff catches up.