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View Full Version : *Official* 6-17 Leave Thornton in LaLa Land; LAD 2 SOX 1 Postgamer


Frater Perdurabo
06-17-2012, 07:07 PM
Thornton is worthless.

BigHurt3515
06-17-2012, 07:08 PM
Give up 2 hits to 2 guys that were hitless all game..

Aesero
06-17-2012, 07:09 PM
Was really hoping to see Quintana have a chance to pitch the ninth. Just needed to have Reed warming up just in case.

Soxman219
06-17-2012, 07:09 PM
To be fair, Danks was stupid for attempting to dive there.

ohiosoxfan
06-17-2012, 07:09 PM
There is absolutely NO reason a .235 hitting 150 pound lefthanded hitter should be able to get a hit off of a lefty throwing 96 MPH.............

WhiteSoxOnly
06-17-2012, 07:09 PM
Woulda, coulda, shoulda been a sweep. Sorry but no, only one win and a lousy way to end a lousy trip.

shingo10
06-17-2012, 07:09 PM
Well.

Didn't have to burn the bullpen.

Jose was AWESOME.

And there ends the positives. With Stewart starting tomorrow our offense better get it going and in a hurry.

Tragg
06-17-2012, 07:10 PM
Why in the world doesn't Quintana, with his 77 pitches, finish the game? Reed has hardly been flawless this season, and the Dodgers saw him last night.
Please no cookie-cutter managing.

JB98
06-17-2012, 07:10 PM
The numbers suggest Thornton still gets lefties out at a pretty high rate, but my eyes tell me he isn't as effective in that regard as he used to be.

Neither Gwynn nor Gordon had any trouble against him. Awful play by Danks in that last inning also.

This is one of those weeks where I hate being a Sox fan. I've been furious with them all week for just giving away games with criminal stupidity. Now we get the Zach Stewart Experience tomorrow. I'm excited.

Dan H
06-17-2012, 07:11 PM
Was really hoping to see Quintana have a chance to pitch the ninth. Just needed to have Reed warming up just in case.

I didn't see most of the game but I saw Quintana had a low pitch count. I don't understand bringing in the closer at that point. Horrible road trip and the Tigers are starting to get their act together.

Noneck
06-17-2012, 07:11 PM
Hope the sunday lineup will pay dividends on monday.

Tragg
06-17-2012, 07:14 PM
Hat's off to Quintana. He's been excellent this year. Williams finds just as good pitchers in the dumpster than he does when he loads up the prospects and trades for them. Stick to the dumpster.

mahagga73
06-17-2012, 07:14 PM
The numbers suggest Thornton still gets lefties out at a pretty high rate, but my eyes tell me he isn't as effective in that regard as he used to be.

Neither Gwynn nor Gordon had any trouble against him. Awful play by Danks in that last inning also.

This is one of those weeks where I hate being a Sox fan. I've been furious with them all week for just giving away games with criminal stupidity. Now we get the Zach Stewart Experience tomorrow. I'm excited.
My eyes are saying that every time Thornton enters a game a loss follows.Do not get the Stewart start.That is almost as bad as just forfeiting. Ventura is overmanaging,unneccessarily using up the bullpen.One of these days it's going to dawn on him Thornton S#%* and it would be best to let your starter or someone else try to hold the lead.

Frater Perdurabo
06-17-2012, 07:14 PM
There is absolutely NO reason a .235 hitting 150 pound lefthanded hitter should be able to get a hit off of a lefty throwing 96 MPH.............

When that lefty throws 96 with no movement, it's only a matter of timing your swing.

kittle42
06-17-2012, 07:15 PM
I need a few days off from this team. Back to being maddening. Can't bear to watch Stewart tomorrow.

LITTLE NELL
06-17-2012, 07:16 PM
Did not see the game but Robin has to take some of the blame for not going with Q in the 9th, only 77 pitches. How did he look in the 8th that made Robin make the change?

JB98
06-17-2012, 07:16 PM
My eyes are saying that every time Thornton enters a game a loss follows.Do not get the Stewart start.That is almost as bad as just forfeiting.

Yeah, I haven't been able to get on the "protect Peavy and Sale" train. Some people here are, but I'm of the mindset to give the ball to the best guys as often as possible.

JB98
06-17-2012, 07:17 PM
Did not see the game but Robin has to take some of the blame for not going with Q in the 9th, only 77 pitches. How did he look in the 8th that made Robin make the change?

The eighth was one of his easiest innings.

spongyfungy
06-17-2012, 07:17 PM
Ventura better have a REAL GOOD reason why Quintana was pulled. Even if he was going to give up the run, it was his game to lose. I wonder if Quintana could speak english, he would have tried to convince Robin and Coop to keep him in the game. Peavy's seems to be able to do that. Addison Reed was used late last night and he probably wasn't as fresh today.

The Dodgers are a heck of a team. They are doing with awesome defense and pitching all without Kemp

LITTLE NELL
06-17-2012, 07:18 PM
The eighth was one of his easiest innings.

That hurts.

DickAllen72
06-17-2012, 07:18 PM
The bullpen has been overworked lately and they needed Quintana to go deep today. So he's cruising along with a shutout while only throwing a little over 75 pitches and our manager decides to pull him out of the game. Not a smart move.

And if Jordan Danks is supposed to be the best defensive outfielder in the organization, it's not saying much for the outfielders in the organization. That was a stupid play.

This loss is on Ventura and Danks. This one really hurts too.

Now we get to look forward to Zach Stewart tomorrow. I wonder if Reed and Thornton wil be available for tomorrow's game. Stewart's going to have to go deep. Good luck with that.

mahagga73
06-17-2012, 07:20 PM
Ventura better have a REAL GOOD reason why Quintana was pulled. Even if he was going to give up the run, it was his game to lose. I wonder if Quintana could speak english, he would have tried to convince Robin and Coop to keep him in the game. Peavy's seems to be able to do that. Addison Reed was used late last night and he probably wasn't as fresh today.

The Dodgers are a heck of a team. They are doing with awesome defense and pitching all without Kemp
The Dodgers are for real no doubt. I think Ventura is showing his inexperience burning the bullpen unneccessarily constantly.

spongyfungy
06-17-2012, 07:21 PM
The eighth was one of his easiest innings.

Gameday say 8 pitches in the 8th.

8

Dick Allen
06-17-2012, 07:21 PM
This loss is on Robin Ventura, and only Robin Ventura. Didn't he grow up a Dodgers fan? Because he sure as hell managed like it. He pissed me off today as much as Ozzie ever did. First, for sending out that horsecrap lineup, insisting that all the scrubs are in at the same time. Then compounding the problem by playing Dunn against a tough left-hander and benching Paulie. Did PK ask him for a rest? Because Dunn didn't hit the ball all day. And of course, not bringing out Quintana to at least start the 9th, having thrown only 77 pitches. With that lineup, he was forcing Quintana to throw a shutout. Which he was doing, so naturally, yeah, let's take him out. Now, we have to have Zach ******* Stewart face the flubs. Dammit all. :angry:

infohawk
06-17-2012, 07:21 PM
The Sox are streaky. When they were going good, everything was clicking. Now they just seem "out of sync" as evidenced by scoring 5 off Kershaw on a night when Sale is shakey and combines with the bullpen to give up the lead, getting a great outing by Peavy against the Cards and losing 1-0, not getting much offense from the Sunday line-up (although I support the concept behind "Sunday line-ups") and having your pitcher shut out the other team only to have your closer allow a run. They're just out of sync. Ten days ago it seemed they couldn't lose. Now you just half expect them to blow games somehow.

SoxandtheCityTee
06-17-2012, 07:21 PM
Did not see the game but Robin has to take some of the blame for not going with Q in the 9th, only 77 pitches. How did he look in the 8th that made Robin make the change?

He looked fine. Reason appeared to be that Reed is the closer. I saw nothing else.

It looked like the Sox caught a break on that appeal play. If the score had remained 1-1 who knows, LAD may have won anyway. Sigh.

PalehosePlanet
06-17-2012, 07:23 PM
There is absolutely NO reason a .235 hitting 150 pound lefthanded hitter should be able to get a hit off of a lefty throwing 96 MPH.............

Except when it's at the knees, instead of higher in the zone, any old ****box hitter can just drop the bat down on it and put it in play.

Typical slump loss. Abreu had no business getting a hit on an 0-2 up and in fastball, then Herrera hits a lucky 106 hop trickler through the right side that's hit so softly that it allows Abreu to get to 3rd even though he had stopped at 2nd and was running at about a 7.5 second 0-40 clip.

Also, Robin, do me a favor and stop playing all of the scrubs on the same day. Can't you mix them into the lineup here and there without them all playing on the same day?

LITTLE NELL
06-17-2012, 07:24 PM
The Dodgers are for real no doubt. I think Ventura is showing his inexperience burning the bullpen unneccessarily constantly.

That extra inning game against Seattle 2 weeks ago was a very good example of that. He had no one left at the end. Doesn't our great pitching coach have any input or does he have too much?

StillMissOzzie
06-17-2012, 07:24 PM
For Quintana to toss 8 innings of shutout baseball against one of the better NL teams and not get a decision just sucks. I would like to think that Ventura had a better reason to pull him than, "Because that's what we have a closer for".
I agree that Danks' diving play in LF was bone-headed. Maybe earlier in the game, but you don't allow singles to turn into triples in an extra-inning game, especially on the road when that's the game winner.

And I hate extra inning games on the road anyhow.

SMO
:angry:

Dan H
06-17-2012, 07:26 PM
This loss is on Robin Ventura, and only Robin Ventura. Didn't he grow up a Dodgers fan? Because he sure as hell managed like it. He pissed me off today as much as Ozzie ever did. First, for sending out that horsecrap lineup, insisting that all the scrubs are in at the same time. Then compounding the problem by playing Dunn against a tough left-hander and benching Paulie. Did PK ask him for a rest? Because Dunn didn't hit the ball all day. And of course, not bringing out Quintana to at least start the 9th, having thrown only 77 pitches. With that lineup, he was forcing Quintana to throw a shutout. Which he was doing, so naturally, yeah, let's take him out. Now, we have to have Zach ******* Stewart face the flubs. Dammit all. :angry:

I agree with all of this. In addition, we have to face up to the fact that this team is not going to win this division. What is it with these Sunday lineups anyway?

mahagga73
06-17-2012, 07:27 PM
That extra inning game against Seattle 2 weeks ago was a very good example of that. He had no one left at the end. Doesn't our great pitching coach have any input or does he have too much?
Seems like they were saying on the radio on one of the shows that there was some friction between Coop and Robin. Seems like Coop had more pull on these things with Ozzie around. Coop is probably thinking the same thing we are about removing Quintana ,d@#$% rookie move.Melton has all but said that was a boneheaded move postgame.

TomParrish79
06-17-2012, 07:27 PM
"Damned if you Do & Damned if you dont" for Robin Ventura in this game. If he had stayed with Quintana who was cruising and they had tied the game, people would have said "Should have went to Reed" & by going to Reed he opened himself up to the "Should have left Quintana in there" argument.

Just been a bad last 6 games. Would have won 2 of 3 from St Louis if we could have gotten runs home from 3rd with less than 2 out, and would have swept the Dodgers if we hadn't made bonehead plays.

Not gonna fault Jordan Danks, he was trying to make a play and you never fault effort. Also not gonna fault Robin Ventura because he's just playing the percentages that major league managers play every night, majority of the time they work, sometimes they dont thats baseball.

Hopefullyt he quality of baseball picks up next series, if they can keep their heads above .500 while catching all these bad breaks, we'll be fine.

infohawk
06-17-2012, 07:27 PM
Did not see the game but Robin has to take some of the blame for not going with Q in the 9th, only 77 pitches. How did he look in the 8th that made Robin make the change?

A manager is always in a position to get second-guessed in such a situation. If Quantana gives up the lead, then everybody demands to know why the closer wasn't in the game. The ball was in Reed's hands and he didn't get it done.

shingo10
06-17-2012, 07:28 PM
For Quintana to toss 8 innings of shutout baseball against one of the better NL teams and not get a decision just sucks. I would like to think that Ventura had a better reason to pull him than, "Because that's what we have a closer for".
I agree that Danks' diving play in LF was bone-headed. Maybe earlier in the game, but you don't allow singles to turn into triples in an extra-inning game, especially on the road when that's the game winner.

And I hate extra inning games on the road anyhow.

SMO
:angry:


Extra inning games anywhere suck for the Sox. Because we always lose. Well most of the time we lose. I guess we won once in Cleveland this year but that may be about it. Mercy,

LITTLE NELL
06-17-2012, 07:28 PM
That 4 series in a row that we have lost, 6-9 in June. Time to turn it around with a good homestand against the Cubs and Brewers.

BigHurt3515
06-17-2012, 07:30 PM
Did anyone think we would actually score more than 1 run with the line up that was thrown out there today?? Your lead-off hitter and your number 4 hitter both not in the line up= 1 run. Terrible. Maybe you can keep 1 out of the line up but not both in the same damn game.

JB98
06-17-2012, 07:30 PM
"Damned if you Do & Damned if you dont" for Robin Ventura in this game. If he had stayed with Quintana who was cruising and they had tied the game, people would have said "Should have went to Reed" & by going to Reed he opened himself up to the "Should have left Quintana in there" argument.

Just been a bad last 6 games. Would have won 2 of 3 from St Louis if we could have gotten runs home from 3rd with less than 2 out, and would have swept the Dodgers if we hadn't made bonehead plays.

Not gonna fault Jordan Danks, he was trying to make a play and you never fault effort. Also not gonna fault Robin Ventura because he's just playing the percentages that major league managers play every night, majority of the time they work, sometimes they dont thats baseball.

Hopefullyt he quality of baseball picks up next series, if they can keep their heads above .500 while catching all these bad breaks, we'll be fine.

I posed the question in the top of the ninth in the gamethread. We pretty much all agreed, Quintana starts the inning. Go to Reed if somebody reaches. It's not a second guess if you say it beforehand.

The best managers are the ones that know when to go against the percentages. Any knucklehead can sit in the dugout and play the percentages all day.

mahagga73
06-17-2012, 07:31 PM
That 4 series in a row that we have lost, 6-9 in June. Time to turn it around with a good homestand against the Cubs and Brewers.Hopefully the ghost of a functional major league pitcher takes over Stewarts body tommorrow. I'm not counting on that one.

LITTLE NELL
06-17-2012, 07:32 PM
A manager is always in a position to get second-guessed in such a situation. If Quantana gives up the lead, then everybody demands to know why the closer wasn't in the game. The ball was in Reed's hands and he didn't get it done.

But he left Sale in a little while back and he had way over 100 pitches.
Sale got the win but I think Q would have too.

BigHurt3515
06-17-2012, 07:34 PM
But he left Sale in a little while back and he had way over 100 pitches.
Sale got the win but I think Q would have too.

With the people who were coming up, he would of been just fine

SoxSpeed22
06-17-2012, 07:34 PM
Rookie mistake by Danks. This is one of those ones great teams like the Dodgers just snatch from other teams. To be fair to Thornton, the Dodger hitters were looking to hit the ball to left, which not too many other teams do that.
The good news is despite how badly we've been playing, Cleveland doesn't feel like taking 1st place away from us. 85 wins might do it this year.

LITTLE NELL
06-17-2012, 07:36 PM
Did anyone think we would actually score more than 1 run with the line up that was thrown out there today?? Your lead-off hitter and your number 4 hitter both not in the line up= 1 run. Terrible. Maybe you can keep 1 out of the line up but not both in the same damn game.

Ozzie must have left a note to Robin that Sunday is a day of rest for half your regulars. What is wrong with resting no more than one guy a game?

mahagga73
06-17-2012, 07:37 PM
I posed the question in the top of the ninth in the gamethread. We pretty much all agreed, Quintana starts the inning. Go to Reed if somebody reaches. It's not a second guess if you say it beforehand.

The best managers are the ones that know when to go against the percentages. Any knucklehead can sit in the dugout and play the percentages all day.
It's clear cut,if you have been burning your bullpen up and your starter has thrown 77 pitches,you leave him in.It's not a damned if you do or dont situation,not even close.Sale was left in with far more pitches before.No,this is a no-brainer.

spongyfungy
06-17-2012, 07:38 PM
"Damned if you Do & Damned if you dont" for Robin Ventura in this game. If he had stayed with Quintana who was cruising and they had tied the game, people would have said "Should have went to Reed" & by going to Reed he opened himself up to the "Should have left Quintana in there" argument.

Just been a bad last 6 games. Would have won 2 of 3 from St Louis if we could have gotten runs home from 3rd with less than 2 out, and would have swept the Dodgers if we hadn't made bonehead plays.

Not gonna fault Jordan Danks, he was trying to make a play and you never fault effort. Also not gonna fault Robin Ventura because he's just playing the percentages that major league managers play every night, majority of the time they work, sometimes they dont thats baseball.

Hopefullyt he quality of baseball picks up next series, if they can keep their heads above .500 while catching all these bad breaks, we'll be fine.

The fact is though that Quintana had only thrown 77 pitches, was cruising and it was his game to lose IMO. If he was hovering around 105-110 pitches, sure you put in Addison. If he had given up the run, I would not blame Robin one bit. This was a day game after a late night and the bullpen was used, including the closer Addison Reed.

Who cares if he was 8 for 8 in save opps. His WHIP is 1.28 with a 4.37 ERA. Not exactly a sure thing. The save is such an overrated stat like RBI is such an antiquated way of playing baseball. Playing for stats and bringing in a closer in the ninth just because you have to will get you burned. We're finding a bit more about Robin every game and all I can hope for is that he learns from his decisions.

DickAllen72
06-17-2012, 07:38 PM
The good news is despite how badly we've been playing, Cleveland doesn't feel like taking 1st place away from us.
But Detroit might feel like it.

mahagga73
06-17-2012, 07:39 PM
Ozzie must have left a note to Robin that Sunday is a day of rest for half your regulars. What is wrong with resting no more than one guy a game?
Seems like he likes to just forfeit games and have everybody sit. They aren't deep enough to be doing that garbage. He will learn eventually I hope. Not sure when he is going to realize this one simple formula Thornton=Loss.

Noneck
06-17-2012, 07:41 PM
But Detroit might feel like it.

Thats the only team I watch.

shingo10
06-17-2012, 07:43 PM
Thats the only team I watch.


Kansas City has been coming on too. Given the fact that the Sox seem to be incapable of winning a series against them that is a little worrisome.

TDog
06-17-2012, 07:44 PM
Reed is as much to blame as Thornton for this loss, just as Crain was as much to blame, probably moreso, than Thornton Friday night. Really, both Reed and Thornton should have had this afternoon off.

I was surprised to see Reed come into the game in the ninth. I'm not in the dugout. I don't know if Quintana was tired or if there was a reason to question his ability to pitch the ninth. But I don't understand the automatic use of a closer in the ninth when you are up by a run and your starting pitcher has been pitching a masterpiece

Today it made even less sense. The White Sox needed Quintana to go deep in today's game to rest the bullpen. If every you needed a complete game, today was the day for it. It was exactly what the White Sox needed. Even with bench-player heavy right handed lineup against the tough lefty, it looked like a win through eight.

Bring in Reed, and the Dodgers bring in Abreu, who has been killing the Sox this weekend going to left. Put runners on base, put runners in motion, and the results felt inevitable. If Thornton had worked out of the 10th-inning jam, the Sox would have had to deeper into the overused bullpen, with a spot starter going Monday night.

I think Reed is a solid closer. He was part of a huge bullpen effort Saturday night. But the Dodgers must have felt relieved not to have to face Quintana in the ninth.

This was a tough roadtrip. The two best starting pitching performances resulted in losses.

Noneck
06-17-2012, 07:45 PM
Kansas City has been coming on too. Given the fact that the Sox seem to be incapable of winning a series against them that is a little worrisome.

To win the season series or bypass the Sox , maybe but to win the division, I really dont think so.

ChiSoxGal85
06-17-2012, 07:45 PM
I confess to throwing up my hands and leaving the room when I saw that Thornton was coming in. So I didn't see the end of the game, but in general:
1) Quintana has earned the right to stay either in the rotation or as a sub/sixth man until Floyd/Humber/Danks work out their issues.
2) Sox got a break on that appeal play and should have lost anyway, but they couldn't pull off enough offense to make it a non-issue. Ugh.
3) If Stewart has to start, starting against the Cubs (one of the worst teams in baseball right now) is perhaps the best-case scenario.

MarySwiss
06-17-2012, 07:54 PM
Wahhhh! Quintana should have stayed in, IMO. But I am not the manager, and our team is still in first place, so I am fine with that! :D:

RadioheadRocks
06-17-2012, 07:57 PM
The numbers suggest Thornton still gets lefties out at a pretty high rate, but my eyes tell me he isn't as effective in that regard as he used to be.


My brain tells me Thornton sucks ass and it's high time he's shown the door.

WSox597
06-17-2012, 08:06 PM
Without slamming anybody, this series is one the Sox should have won. They even could have swept it.

You hate to see these kinds of losses. Maybe Quintana was out of gas? Not sure.

fram40
06-17-2012, 08:08 PM
I posed the question in the top of the ninth in the gamethread. We pretty much all agreed, Quintana starts the inning. Go to Reed if somebody reaches. It's not a second guess if you say it beforehand.

The best managers are the ones that know when to go against the percentages. Any knucklehead can sit in the dugout and play the percentages all day.

so when WSI agrees - it must be the correct move? :tongue:

I agreed with you in the thread - and mainly for the reason you stated: Keep Abreu sitting on his ass.

Reason #2 - rest the bullpen. The entire bullpen. Even Reed - who hadn't been used much.

Still in first. Let's hope the Sox can take 5 games on this homestand.

JB98
06-17-2012, 08:09 PM
My brain tells me Thornton sucks ass and it's high time he's shown the door.

This organization doesn't have the pitching depth to be showing anyone the door. As inconsistent as Thornton has been, do you trust either Ohman or Santiago to take a more expanded role as a lefty out of the bullpen? I do not.

JB98
06-17-2012, 08:13 PM
so when WSI agrees - it must be the correct move? :tongue:

I agreed with you in the thread - and mainly for the reason you stated: Keep Abreu sitting on his ass.

Reason #2 - rest the bullpen. The entire bullpen. Even Reed - who hadn't been used much.

Still in first. Let's hope the Sox can take 5 games on this homestand.

Yeah, the Sox invited the Dodgers to use their best pinch hitter by bringing in Reed. Leave Quintana in and we probably see Ivan DeJesus Jr. in that spot. I would rather face Ivan DeJesus Jr. than Bobby Abreu.

To quote Bulls color commentator Stacey King, "KYP, know your personnel."

RadioheadRocks
06-17-2012, 08:13 PM
This organization doesn't have the pitching depth to be showing anyone the door. As inconsistent as Thornton has been, do you trust either Ohman or Santiago to take a more expanded role as a lefty out of the bullpen? I do not.


Let's just say that all three of them suck major ass, and I really don't see a lesser among those three evils. This orgainzation is just going to have to lie in the bed they made... sucks but unfortunately that's the way it is.

guillensdisciple
06-17-2012, 08:20 PM
I agree with all of this. In addition, we have to face up to the fact that this team is not going to win this division. What is it with these Sunday lineups anyway?

How do you know this Nostradamus?

veeter
06-17-2012, 08:21 PM
Why in the world doesn't Quintana, with his 77 pitches, finish the game? Reed has hardly been flawless this season, and the Dodgers saw him last night.
Please no cookie-cutter managing.I thought Robin was better than that. Guess not. That right there is awful managing. The kid hadn't broken a sweat.

veeter
06-17-2012, 08:23 PM
Without slamming anybody, this series is one the Sox should have won. They even could have swept it.

You hate to see these kinds of losses. Maybe Quintana was out of gas? Not sure.He threw 77 pitches, during eight pretty stress free innings.

Lip Man 1
06-17-2012, 08:36 PM
Make it six blown games where the Sox had a lead going into the 7th inning or later and lost. Once in the 14th inning,three times in the 9th, once in the 8th and once in the 7th innings.

The scorecard (or goat card):

Santiago = 2 times
Thornton = 2 times
Crain = 1 time
Reed = 1 time

Add in the games where they blew a 6-0 lead to the Tigers and a 5-1 lead to the Dodgers and that's an awful, awful lot of games they're giving away.

It's going to haunt them in September.

Normally I'd say considering who they played this week and the way (in typical Sox fashion) they keep drawing the best pitchers the other clubs have, that 2-4 isn't to bad. But the way they lost Friday and today, simply turns your stomach.

Now they come home (joy) where they don't play well and have Stewart and Floyd in the next series and I'm assume even as lousy a club as the Cubs are going to have plenty of scoring opportunites.

Since that 13-1 spurt shot them into 1st place and eight games over .500 they've gone 5-9.

Lip

oldgrouch
06-17-2012, 08:36 PM
The Dodgers are for real no doubt. I think Ventura is showing his inexperience burning the bullpen unneccessarily constantly.

Ronge was on after the game sticking up for this move with every caller. Says
you must go with your closer in this situation.:scratch::scratch:

JB98
06-17-2012, 08:47 PM
Ronge was on after the game sticking up for this move with every caller. Says
you must go with your closer in this situation.:scratch::scratch:

Why? If you have Mariano Rivera then, yeah, you don't think twice about going to your closer.

I like Addison Reed. I think he has a bright future, but he is not in that category.

Dick Allen
06-17-2012, 08:48 PM
Ronge was on after the game sticking up for this move with every caller. Says
you must go with your closer in this situation.:scratch::scratch:I've had more than enough of Rongey. Unless Quintana came to them and said he was gassed and couldn't continue, then this should have been a no-brainer. Absolutely ******* brutal. :angry:

Lip Man 1
06-17-2012, 08:48 PM
Sox are 1-4 in extra inning games this year (have lost three straight in that category...)

Lip

Hitmen77
06-17-2012, 08:55 PM
I thought Robin was better than that. Guess not. That right there is awful managing. The kid hadn't broken a sweat.

:KW
Who would have thought that hiring a manager with zero professional coaching experience would result in him making poor decisions?

shingo10
06-17-2012, 09:07 PM
I've had more than enough of Rongey. Unless Quintana came to them and said he was gassed and couldn't continue, then this should have been a no-brainer. Absolutely ******* brutal. :angry:


Robin seems to be a very logical, smart person who knows the game and understands his players. So I'm extremely hopeful that while it sucked that we lost this game, he is going to learn from this and this organization will be better off in the future. Managers have bad games like everyone else. He doesn't seem to have the stubbornness that haunted some of our previous managers.

Lip Man 1
06-17-2012, 09:09 PM
Robin on why he pulled Q. As I heard it he never really answered Gonzo's comment save for (paraphrasing) 'well Reed is the closer...'

OK.............:?:

So you pull a guy pitching a gem and who just had an eight pitch 8th inning 'just because?' :?:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/videogallery/70516914/Sports/Video-Ventura-on-pulling-Sox-starter-Quintana-in-favor-of-closer-Reed

Makes perfect sense to me...

Lip

BigKlu59
06-17-2012, 09:11 PM
What can you say about this one but,....What the ****.... OK call me a confused bitter old crumudgeon, but what the hell is this crap of a Sunday line up when we are already giving up an out with the pitcher batting.. We might as well have spotted em a 2 run lead out of the chute. I'm of the opinion they should have left Q in to finish off in the 9th.. Kid pitched a hell of a game. Sucks when the wheels fall off as they did in 2 of the 3 games with both being winnable. I guess this is why LA has been so charmed in 1 run games all year and why they have crossed the 40 win mark so far.

Thorton needs a night in CPD lock up "reading the phonebook"...
Danks... Son, keep the ball in front of you in EI.. You make the dive if he's already on 3rd for the game winner.. you dont put him there..

Damn, these guys can frusterate the piss out of you, cant they...

Time to come home and blow out the Cubbies for some solace...


BK59

mahagga73
06-17-2012, 09:20 PM
Ronge was on after the game sticking up for this move with every caller. Says
you must go with your closer in this situation.:scratch::scratch:
Roungey has never disagreed with anything any Sox manager has ever done,probably because he has to deal with them at times..If I remember right,he agreed with 99 percent of what Ozzie did no matter what common sense dictated.Can't even listen to him anymore.

mahagga73
06-17-2012, 09:23 PM
I've had more than enough of Rongey. Unless Quintana came to them and said he was gassed and couldn't continue, then this should have been a no-brainer. Absolutely ******* brutal. :angry:
I honestly think he is determined to take the minority view ,no matter how ridiculous ,just for the sake of being a know it all jack.He's awful,can't listen to that PR anymore.

amsteel
06-17-2012, 09:24 PM
This game was lost when that dog**** lineup was trotted out.

RV has not been particularly impressive with his bullpen management thus far.

LongLiveFisk
06-17-2012, 09:27 PM
Make it six blown games where the Sox had a lead going into the 7th inning or later and lost. Once in the 14th inning,three times in the 9th, once in the 8th and once in the 7th innings.

I'm curious to know how that measures up to all the other MLB teams. Sure feels like we lead in that category.

Robin on why he pulled Q. As I heard it he never really answered Gonzo's comment save for (paraphrasing) 'well Reed is the closer...'

Hey, serves him right for not throwing a no-hitter into the bottom of the 9th.

sox1970
06-17-2012, 09:28 PM
I'm a big believer that in 1-0 games that if the starter is coasting all game, you let him finish. That's his game to win or lose.

shingo10
06-17-2012, 09:30 PM
Robin on why he pulled Q. As I heard it he never really answered Gonzo's comment save for (paraphrasing) 'well Reed is the closer...'

OK.............:?:

So you pull a guy pitching a gem and who just had an eight pitch 8th inning 'just because?' :?:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/videogallery/70516914/Sports/Video-Ventura-on-pulling-Sox-starter-Quintana-in-favor-of-closer-Reed

Makes perfect sense to me...

Lip


To be fair Robin has shown that he doesn't really care how he is being perceived outside of the clubhouse. So giving a short response to the media doesn't mean that he doesn't realize the mistake. He needs the respect of the clubhouse so hopefully he made it clear to Jose and everyone else that he messed up.

russ99
06-17-2012, 09:40 PM
I find it odd that the people who cheered at Robin running the same lineup out everyday for weeks are ripping him for a Sunday lineup today.

Doesn't go both ways, and nobody plays 162 games a season anymore. Also if those guys don't get playing time, they'll never be effective when needed.

Chalk it up as a bad road trip and lets crush the Cubs and Brewers.

Noneck
06-17-2012, 09:42 PM
I'm a big believer that in 1-0 games that if the starter is coasting all game, you let him finish. That's his game to win or lose.

I also dont believe in a pitch count, the 5 man rotation, the number of innings pitched but that's the way it is now a days.

amsteel
06-17-2012, 09:44 PM
Here is how the Sox compare to the league average when leading after 6,7, and 8 innings:

Inning Sox W% MLB W%
6 0.914 0.877
7 0.912 0.919
8 0.939 0.948

The Sox blow leads just as much as everyone else, folks.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/inning_summary.cgi?year_game=2012&team_id=CHW#gotresults&year=2012&team_id=CHW&ajax=1&submitter=1

LongLiveFisk
06-17-2012, 09:49 PM
Here is how the Sox compare to the league average when leading after 6,7, and 8 innings:

Inning Sox W% MLB W%
6 0.914 0.877
7 0.912 0.919
8 0.939 0.948

The Sox blow leads just as much as everyone else, folks.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/inning_summary.cgi?year_game=2012&team_id=CHW#gotresults&year=2012&team_id=CHW&ajax=1&submitter=1

Good, because misery loves company. :D:

Frater Perdurabo
06-17-2012, 09:52 PM
Here is how the Sox compare to the league average when leading after 6,7, and 8 innings:

Inning Sox W% MLB W%
6 0.914 0.877
7 0.912 0.919
8 0.939 0.948

The Sox blow leads just as much as everyone else, folks.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/inning_summary.cgi?year_game=2012&team_id=CHW#gotresults&year=2012&team_id=CHW&ajax=1&submitter=1

This helps demonstrate why we are an average team, in first place only because our division sucks.

FielderJones
06-17-2012, 10:38 PM
In addition, we have to face up to the fact that this team is not going to win this division.

The rest of the division blows. The Sox have as good, if not a better, chance of winning this division than any of the other clubs.

Iron Dragon2
06-17-2012, 10:40 PM
So, can somebody explain why the Sox are giving away a game against the Cubs by starting Stewart instead of Peavy???

JB98
06-17-2012, 10:42 PM
So, can somebody explain why the Sox are giving away a game against the Cubs by starting Stewart instead of Peavy???

It's a maintenance thing. They are trying to keep Peavy and Sale healthy for the long haul. I can't say I agree with the move, but that's the reason for it.

kobo
06-17-2012, 10:55 PM
So, can somebody explain why the Sox are giving away a game against the Cubs by starting Stewart instead of Peavy???
I didn't realize the outcome of tomorrow's game has already been decided. Good to know, now I don't have to watch.

Brian26
06-17-2012, 11:02 PM
Just watched the game on DVR. Tough loss, but lots of over-reacting here. Its hard to pin blame on anyone. It's just a tough loss. Capuano was dealing today, and I'm not sure having AJ and Konerko in there would have made much of a difference. The hits off Reed in the 9th were just lucky. Abreu just made a hell of a swing on an 0-2 high fastball, almost a check-swing single. The hit into right probably wouldn't have been a hit if Beckham wasn't shading towards second, but you can't get on Gordon because he played great D the entire game. The Danks play in LF is just a tough break. There's no guarantee the same plays wouldn't have happened if Quintana was still on the mound. Just a tough loss, but a good series. Sox could have easily swept the series.

Get it back together and sweep the Flubs now.

johnnyg83
06-17-2012, 11:10 PM
I'm sorry, but to expect more than one run with that lineup Is ridiculous. To expect to win with that lineup is superbly ridiculatte.

The Dodgers have the best record in the league and we're resting guys. ***. Rest guys when Zack Stewart pitches. Rest guys when you're playing the worst team in the league not the best.

We trod out our "loser" lineup and we lost. Somebody "joked" in the game thread hat we need to win 1-0.

No freaking joke.

Im all for resting guys, RV, but you don't have to rest them all at the same time and give away games.

delben91
06-17-2012, 11:26 PM
This loss is on Robin Ventura, and only Robin Ventura. Didn't he grow up a Dodgers fan? Because he sure as hell managed like it. He pissed me off today as much as Ozzie ever did. First, for sending out that horsecrap lineup, insisting that all the scrubs are in at the same time. Then compounding the problem by playing Dunn against a tough left-hander and benching Paulie. Did PK ask him for a rest? Because Dunn didn't hit the ball all day. And of course, not bringing out Quintana to at least start the 9th, having thrown only 77 pitches. With that lineup, he was forcing Quintana to throw a shutout. Which he was doing, so naturally, yeah, let's take him out. Now, we have to have Zach ******* Stewart face the flubs. Dammit all. :angry:

I'm with you with the whole post except that one sentence. Even today Ventura didn't get within miles of the most pissed I ever got at Ozzie.

All that said, competitive series against the first place Dodgers. More than I dare dreamed of back in spring training. The Sox are far, far, far surpassing my expectations for the season. Thus, despite a week of crap play, I expected much worse than even this past week to have been the norm this year. Hard for me to get mad given my low expectations, as they're still exceeding them.

Wedema
06-17-2012, 11:29 PM
Ronge was on after the game sticking up for this move with every caller. Says
you must go with your closer in this situation.:scratch::scratch:


Rongey is a joke and I won't even listen to the postgame show anymore. I can't believe that The Score can't find a more knowledgeable host for the show.

tstrike2000
06-17-2012, 11:32 PM
The Sox have done a little of everything to lose lately. Peavy and Quintana pitch great games but lose due to a lack of clutch hitting and great pitching from the opposing pitcher. Or, like today's game, the bullpen blows the game and/or loses the lead. And probably the biggest problem, the starting staff has ranged from great, to shaky, to flat out bad.

Normally, wouldn't want to see Zach Stewart starting a game, but after recent events, eh, what the hell.

sox1970
06-17-2012, 11:35 PM
Rongey is a joke and I won't even listen to the postgame show anymore. I can't believe that The Score can't find a more knowledgeable host for the show.

It's paint-by-numbers managing. Always use your closer in a closing situation, and nobody can question it or say you were wrong.

That's right in Rongey's wheelhouse to defend a managing decision.

slavko
06-17-2012, 11:39 PM
Hat's off to Quintana. He's been excellent this year. Williams finds just as good pitchers in the dumpster than he does when he loads up the prospects and trades for them. Stick to the dumpster.

We agree. KW is better without money to spend. Lord love a duck.

When that lefty throws 96 with no movement, it's only a matter of timing your swing.

And no secondary pitch. Lord love a duck.

Rongey is a joke and I won't even listen to the postgame show anymore. I can't believe that The Score can't find a more knowledgeable host for the show.

From Dave Wills to him. Lord love a duck.

Jordan Danks should have been taught by now that the game situation called for a "no doubles" defense. Blame the kid or blame the organization. Three ducks is my limit.

Noneck
06-17-2012, 11:40 PM
So, can somebody explain why the Sox are giving away a game against the Cubs by starting Stewart instead of Peavy???

Hopefully because they have figured out future match ups down the line and then they can ride the living crap out of him later.

MetroPD
06-17-2012, 11:57 PM
Quintana pitched an absolute gem, Reed once again shows he needs more experience, and Thorton is who he is, but we wouldn't have lost until Reed blew the game for us.

Lip Man 1
06-18-2012, 12:04 AM
Russ:

I don't think anyone is upset with an occasional rest for a player but I think they are upset when Robin or Ozzie or whomever decides to rest two, three, four starters at the same time.

Nothing wrong with resting a guy today, another guy Tuesday, another guy Saturday right?

The Sox are not the 27 Yankees or the 75 Reds, they can't afford to have two, three, four of their best players out at the same time...not with the bench this team has.

I think the last time Robin did this the Sox scored two runs that Sunday (and won) against Seattle. Today they scored one run in 10 innings.

Three runs in 19 innings won't win you a lot of games.

Lip

RadioheadRocks
06-18-2012, 12:05 AM
Quintana pitched an absolute gem, Reed once again shows he needs more experience, and Thorton is who he is, but we wouldn't have lost until Reed blew the game for us.


:scratch: Reed blew the save opportunity, but the game was tied when Thornton took the ball to start the bottom of the 10th.

WhiteSox5187
06-18-2012, 01:11 AM
It's a maintenance thing. They are trying to keep Peavy and Sale healthy for the long haul. I can't say I agree with the move, but that's the reason for it.

I get the reasoning for it and honestly if Stewart is going to have to start it might as well be against an offense that is as anemic as the Cubs.

IronFisk
06-18-2012, 02:00 AM
Very frustrating. Is this just a case of over-managing? What happened to leaving the hot guy in? Q was rolling...no need at all to pull him. With Robin's explanation, then he should have pulled Humber after the 8th during his PG.

The lineup was horrible too. This is the best team in baseball...need to play our best to compete. Guys can rest against the flubs.

hawkjt
06-18-2012, 02:13 AM
Pulling Q after 8 innings made no sense on several levels...

1. He was cruising,with only 8 pitches in the 8th,and 9 in the 7th. Total of only 77 pitches going into the 9th is a dream start, the best of the year,by far.

2. He was dominating their righthanded lineup. Bringing in Reed unleashed their lefty lineup which is much better.

3. Our bullpen could have had the day off totally if Q can finish the game.
Robin has to be willing to lose a game once in awhile,like he is with this lineup(which is fine with me)...but letting Q finish the game,win or lose,might save us this week in our bullpen....he had exactly what he needed,and he chose to screw that up? Crazy.

Q was in such a groove, I am convinced he would have handled them as easily as he did in the prior 5 innings. It was the most stress free start of the season by any pitcher,and Robin pulls him? Nuts.

Now, we face Garza,Woods and Dempster,with Stewart and a tired bullpen,with the Tigers getting hot....way to go,Robin.

SoxSpeed22
06-18-2012, 02:18 AM
It's a Sunday in June, when you're flying to play the next day. I have no problem with Robin using the lineup that he did. I will say though that we better pray that AJ, Rios, Dayan, Dunn or Paulie don't get hurt for an extended period of time. We might just have the worst bench in the Majors.
I only saw the early parts of the game with Quintana, but if Reed converts the save, it wouldn't even be an issue.

TDog
06-18-2012, 02:18 AM
Rongey is a joke and I won't even listen to the postgame show anymore. I can't believe that The Score can't find a more knowledgeable host for the show.

I disagree with Rogney at this point, but I don't have any problem with Rogney defending the decision. It's a philosophical question, and, really, most manager probably would have put their closer in faced with that situation, most American League managers anyway.

I believe that if you bring in a relief pitcher, you have to have a good reason to do so. Quintana has never pitched a major league complete game. I don't believe he ever pitched a complete game in the minors. Finsihing off a 1-0 win would be unchartered territory, and those last three outs could be the toughest. Waiting for Quintana to get into trouble to bring in Reed would be making the move too late.

Today I don't believe that reason to bring in Reed was good enough. It was the wrong move because the White Sox lost, but we'll never know if Quintana would have finished off the shutout.

Most managerial decisions managers make, or at least decisions that fans notice and disagree with, are decisions that most managers would make, though. I knew what Ventura was thinking. I respect what he was thinking, but I disagreed with him. Chuck Tanner would have left Quintana in the game, but Chuck Tanner is dead.

doublem23
06-18-2012, 02:50 AM
I don't think anyone is upset with an occasional rest for a player but I think they are upset when Robin or Ozzie or whomever decides to rest two, three, four starters at the same time.

Nothing wrong with resting a guy today, another guy Tuesday, another guy Saturday right?


The question is, is it better to have your very best lineup out there 5x a week and then the B Lineup once, or to never, ever put your 9 best guys on the field?

MetroPD
06-18-2012, 03:37 AM
:scratch: Reed blew the save opportunity, but the game was tied when Thornton took the ball to start the bottom of the 10th.
snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory. reed is the wrong guy.

chisoxfanatic
06-18-2012, 09:10 AM
Wahhhh! Quintana should have stayed in, IMO. But I am not the manager, and our team is still in first place, so I am fine with that! :D:
I wasn't and still am not. I was FURIOUS when I didn't see Quintana come out for the 9th. NOBODY who is absolutely CRUISING 8 innings with a low pitch count (he was AVERAGING under 10 pitches per inning) should be yanked. It's Baseball Managing 101. For all the good you've done so far this season, Robin, that was a MAJOR gaffe on your part! Games that you have in hand (even dodging a huge bullet in the 6th with a big call going your way to help preserve the lead) need to be bagged. In no means is it early anymore...In less than 2.5 weeks, we will be hitting the halfway mark.
So, can somebody explain why the Sox are giving away a game against the Cubs by starting Stewart instead of Peavy???
How do you chalk up tonight's game as one that will be "given away?" It's the Cubs we will be facing! And, we're certainly not facing a world-beating pitcher (Garza). I think it's ok to give Peavy the extra rest.

SI1020
06-18-2012, 09:26 AM
I also dont believe in a pitch count, the 5 man rotation, the number of innings pitched but that's the way it is now a days. You can add relievers with rigidly assigned roles for me to that list.

TomBradley72
06-18-2012, 09:54 AM
The more I think about it (and as happy as I am with the job Robin has done this year)- this was a major gaffe- the whole mindset entering the game should have been to preserve a heavily worked bullpen- and allow Quintana to get to at least 90 pitches if he was doing well.

Not having that mindset led to Reed -> Thornton and I heard on the radio this morning- even had Gavin Floyd warming up in the bullpen all for what?

I didn't see the 9th inning- only heard it on the radio- but Reed let up a flare and a seeing eye grounder than a sac fly- so it wasn't like he was hammered- so I don't really rip on Reed or Thornton (Danks turned a single into a triple)- but Ventura owns this one- not a good thought process.

Jerko
06-18-2012, 09:58 AM
Roungey has never disagreed with anything any Sox manager has ever done,probably because he has to deal with them at times..If I remember right,he agreed with 99 percent of what Ozzie did no matter what common sense dictated.Can't even listen to him anymore.

He's a waste of air space IMO. If the same situation comes up tonight and the Sox DON'T use the closer, Rongey will say THAT was the right move too.

Now, on to Robin. What I like about Robin so far this year is that he DIDN'T manage "by the book". He's let righties face rigties (GASP) after the 6th inning, he doesn't do LRLRLRLRLR moves when the other team's 8th place hitter is coming up, and he didn't automatically go to his closer every time they have a one run lead after 8 if the starter wasn't struggling. Then yesterday happened. When he "manages like Ozzie", the Sox usually lose. Even that game last weekend when they blew the late 7-5 lead vs Seattle; that was what I call "an Ozzie game". I think he'll learn from this however, and not quit on the team like the last manager did.

Jerko
06-18-2012, 10:14 AM
It's baseball; everyone save AJ should be able to play 150 games.

Whoever the Sox use at 3rd is the same to me, so I don't count that as a big "we didn't use our starters" position.

For the most part, the linuep is pretty consistent; they won their last Sunday home game with the benchwarmers, and should have won today.

i just hope that if/when Danks comes back, Quintana is left alone.

Dan H
06-18-2012, 10:35 AM
How do you chalk up tonight's game as one that will be "given away?" It's the Cubs we will be facing! And, we're certainly not facing a world-beating pitcher (Garza). I think it's ok to give Peavy the extra rest.

I agree with this even though I am not crazy about Stewart on the mound. In past years, there were times when the rotation were juggled for the Cubs series. Beating the Cubs is no more important than beating any other team. If giving pitchers some extra rest is seen as helping the Sox in the long run, I'm all for it. I love when the Sox beat the Cubs, but we should keep our perspective. The White Sox have nothing to prove when it comes to the lowlife Cubs.

chisoxfanatic
06-18-2012, 10:39 AM
It's baseball; everyone save AJ should be able to play 150 games.
This. Baseball is not a grueling sport. Even though it's played nearly every day, it does not tire you out unless you're squatting all the time the way a catcher does. There is no reason for any of the regulars to get much rest.

doublem23
06-18-2012, 10:54 AM
This. Baseball is not a grueling sport. Even though it's played nearly every day, it does not tire you out unless you're squatting all the time the way a catcher does. There is no reason for any of the regulars to get much rest.

While the actual gameplay may not be as violent as other sports like football, basketball, or hockey, the sheer amount of games more than makes up for it. Baseball is a sport of precise skill and timing, you think getting around on a 95 MPH is easy when your back is sore from taking a pitch there last night is easy? Or your legs are dead because some guy took you out breaking up a double play a couple innings ago? The grueling aspect of the sport isn't in neccessarily from the on-field play, it's from the sheer marathon of a season.

Look at it this way. In the American League last season, 40 players appeared in 90% of their team's games (146). That's of 616 players that appeared for an American League team last season. I'm not going to do too much work for this, so let's wipe out 1/2 of them as those are probably pitchers. OK, so we're down to 40/308, which is only about 13% of the league reaching 90% of games played. In this recently completed NHL season, 294 players hit the 90% mark of the NHL season (73 games) of the 783 non-goalies to appear in a game. That over 37.5%.

Just because a sport isn't inherently and aggressively violent during its play doesn't make it an easy, cake walk and cup of tea.

amsteel
06-18-2012, 11:25 AM
Guys need rest. Just not all at the same time.

soxinem1
06-18-2012, 11:48 AM
Is it just me or does Robin seem to leave guys in a little too long (ala Peavy vs. DET with so-so stuff and high pitch counts, Humber a couple times just to let him be eligible for wins, etc.) and them remove them too soon (Quintana vs LA, 77 pitches, 55 for strikes and owning Ethier all day)?

I know he's a rookie and you have to get a feel for how they bounce back. And yes, sometimes the situation calls for textbook managing. And yes, again, the hits off of Reed were fluke-filled, but this kid was in control with an unbelievably low PC through eight innings. He looked like a LH Maddux.

Why did he yank him?

While the actual gameplay may not be as violent as other sports like football, basketball, or hockey, the sheer amount of games more than makes up for it. Baseball is a sport of precise skill and timing, you think getting around on a 95 MPH is easy when your back is sore from taking a pitch there last night is easy? Or your legs are dead because some guy took you out breaking up a double play a couple innings ago? The grueling aspect of the sport isn't in neccessarily from the on-field play, it's from the sheer marathon of a season.

Look at it this way. In the American League last season, 40 players appeared in 90% of their team's games (146). That's of 616 players that appeared for an American League team last season. I'm not going to do too much work for this, so let's wipe out 1/2 of them as those are probably pitchers. OK, so we're down to 40/308, which is only about 13% of the league reaching 90% of games played. In this recently completed NHL season, 294 players hit the 90% mark of the NHL season (73 games) of the 783 non-goalies to appear in a game. That over 37.5%.

Just because a sport isn't inherently and aggressively violent during its play doesn't make it an easy, cake walk and cup of tea.

Totally agree. If baseball was so easy mentally, physically, and talent ruled, all #1 picks would be playing every day with the MLB team right after they signed, just like in the other sports.

Crestani
06-18-2012, 01:06 PM
My wife & daughter surprised me with box seats yestarday so we made the 2 1/2 hour drive up from San Diego and had a great day...(except for the outcome).

Atfter they took the Dodgers run off the board, (scorboard replay looked like it should have been a no-call), I thought we would be attacked walking out the stadium. But low and behold, Reed comes in at the bottom of the ninth and everyone turns to us and says "thanks for taking that kid out"..!! :scratch:

No problems leaving the parking lot as everyone looked at us and said good game, and thanks for the win..!!

One final note, Eithier was a beast out there in right field. I don't know if the Lilli's ball goes out, but it is at least a triple as he was already at second when it was caught ..!!

Dodger fans are much different than Padre fans, as they stay till the end and know baseball..!!

Jerko
06-18-2012, 01:15 PM
Just read that part of the reason Robin went to the pen was because of "the future games Quintana may start". Ughhhh, win the game that's in front of you first, nobody can predict what's going to happen down the road.

LITTLE NELL
06-18-2012, 01:36 PM
Rosenbloom hit the nail on the head in this article.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/rosenblog/chi-quintana-shouldnt-have-been-pulled-20120618,0,4225290.column

soxinem1
06-18-2012, 01:43 PM
Just read that part of the reason Robin went to the pen was because of "the future games Quintana may start". Ughhhh, win the game that's in front of you first, nobody can predict what's going to happen down the road.

Say what you want about TEX, but Nolan Ryan is right. Throw out pitch counts. Once a guy establishes he loses it after 95-100 pitches, deal with it then.

If it was Mike Sirotka or Jim Parque, who struggled the next start after throwing over 90 pitches, okay, sure, I can see that thinking once their history was established.

This guy has been a starter most of his career, however he does have a history of not going deep into games or throwing a lot of innings.

And this 1.53 ERA stuff will not last forever, so you might as well ride it while the kid is hot, and develop him at the same time.

But even if JQ threw 30 more to finish the game, well, he still comes in at 107. He was mixing his pitches so well that of the 20 or so balls he threw, almost none of them were high, and many just missed the corners.

So see what he has after you extend him a bit, and then monitor his effectiveness next time out.

doublem23
06-18-2012, 01:59 PM
Say what you want about TEX, but Nolan Ryan is right. Throw out pitch counts. Once a guy establishes he loses it after 95-100 pitches, deal with it then.

Isn't like... 4/5 of the Rangers' Opening Day starting rotation in the Disabled List?

WisSoxFan
06-18-2012, 02:16 PM
Just read that part of the reason Robin went to the pen was because of "the future games Quintana may start". Ughhhh, win the game that's in front of you first, nobody can predict what's going to happen down the road.

That sounds like a CYA response to me.

GlassSox
06-18-2012, 02:20 PM
Rosenbloom hit the nail on the head in this article.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/rosenblog/chi-quintana-shouldnt-have-been-pulled-20120618,0,4225290.column

Yep!

chisoxfanatic
06-18-2012, 02:30 PM
Just read that part of the reason Robin went to the pen was because of "the future games Quintana may start". Ughhhh, win the game that's in front of you first, nobody can predict what's going to happen down the road.
I think yanking him would have a worse impact on future games than benefit. Yanking him with under 80 pitches would give Quintana the impression that Robin doesn't have full confidence in him. There is ZERO logic in doing what Robin did.

SCCWS
06-18-2012, 02:35 PM
The question is, is it better to have your very best lineup out there 5x a week and then the B Lineup once, or to never, ever put your 9 best guys on the field?

I think you absolutely mix in the bench players during the week. For several reasons:

1. Flowers-Escobar and Liili are all having terrible years offensively. When they are all in at the same time, it is more like the Z team than the B team.

2. Try and use the subs when either it makes sense to rest the starter or the sub has some chance of success. If Paulie or Alex always struggle against a certain guy, that may be a good time to rest him. At the same time, if Flowers had had some success against lefties and none against righties, then use him the day a lefty is pitching which probably helps AJ. The day you pitch a starter who mostly gives up flyballs is not a day to sit DeAza. If Escobar has had considerably better stats at home than on the road, bingo.

3. If this staff consistently pitches lefty/lefty out of the pen, why not try and use the same for your hitters if their stats trend that way.



Now maybe this coaching staff does not manage at all w stats. If so, I still think the eye test says a lineup w this group of subs creates a real offensive challenge.

TDog
06-18-2012, 02:53 PM
He's a waste of air space IMO. If the same situation comes up tonight and the Sox DON'T use the closer, Rongey will say THAT was the right move too.

Now, on to Robin. What I like about Robin so far this year is that he DIDN'T manage "by the book". He's let righties face rigties (GASP) after the 6th inning, he doesn't do LRLRLRLRLR moves when the other team's 8th place hitter is coming up, and he didn't automatically go to his closer every time they have a one run lead after 8 if the starter wasn't struggling. Then yesterday happened. When he "manages like Ozzie", the Sox usually lose. Even that game last weekend when they blew the late 7-5 lead vs Seattle; that was what I call "an Ozzie game". I think he'll learn from this however, and not quit on the team like the last manager did.

If the White Sox don't use a closer tonight iwth a one-run lead, I would have no problem with Rogney defending the decision. Games aren't played in a vacuum. What happened in Dodger Stadium on Sunday afternoon would factor into bullpen decisions in tonight's game, although I think it less likely that Chris Stewart would pitch as well as Quintana did Sunday and take a 1-0 lead into the ninth.

I strongly disagreed with Ventura's move, but I don't have to live with the consequences. I believe Ventura was making the move he believed had the best chance to win the game. Fans complained when he pinch ran Lillibridge for Pierzynski recently because they didn't see it being by the book, even though it he believed it gave the White Sox the best chance to win the game. I would have made the same move, even though it didn't work. Ventura staggers his lineup between right- and left-handed hitters at the top of the order, and has stopped doing it deeper because Rios has emerged as the most dangerous hitter after Konerko and provides more protection for Konerko than Pierzynski.

If what he did Sunday defines "managing like Ozzie," every manager in the league pretty much manages like Ozzie, and they didn't play most of their careers on the left side of the infield with Guillen.

In 1992, Ventura doubled in one of the two runs that gave Charlie Hough a 2-1 lead through eight against the Blue Jays, in a game lost by Bobby Thigpen who came out for the ninth. A few starts later, Charlie Hough left after eight with a 2-1 lead in a game the Sox would lose in extra innings in Baltimore. But Ventura also was on the field when Hough lose a shutout and the game pitching in the ninth in Milwaukee. And Hough, by the time he came to the Sox, was a veteran.

In the Tigers opener, Leyland pulled Verlander after eight in a 2-0 game and brought in Valverde, who gave up two runs. In Verlander's next start when Leyland left Verlander in for the ninth in the same situation, but Verlander was much more dominant against the Rays, having given up only one hit and one walk. He picked up another strikeout in the ninth, but he left with the score tied after three hits and a walk. All four runners would score.

On each occasion, Leyland was managing by the book.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
06-18-2012, 03:42 PM
If the White Sox don't use a closer tonight iwth a one-run lead, I would have no problem with Rogney defending the decision. Games aren't played in a vacuum. What happened in Dodger Stadium on Sunday afternoon would factor into bullpen decisions in tonight's game, although I think it less likely that Chris Stewart would pitch as well as Quintana did Sunday and take a 1-0 lead into the ninth.

We're getting him back from the Yankees? And he's pitching?

Our pitching must be in worse shape than we thought.

Tragg
06-18-2012, 03:49 PM
I think Flowers should catch twice a week. Players need rest, but there's no need to put all the subs in on the same day like Guillen did.
And this "closer" stuff is for the birds.

BigKlu59
06-18-2012, 04:30 PM
I think Flowers should catch twice a week. Players need rest, but there's no need to put all the subs in on the same day like Guillen did.
And this "closer" stuff is for the birds.

This game was a version of Rod Serling's "Twilight Zone" and appropriately played in the City of the Lost Angels.. If it could happen, it did... Nice cameo by the White Sox..

I'm still pissy pants about the use of the Sunday line up against a team you were/are trying to measure up against in MLB and could see when the leaves turn.. Hell, you are giving up 3 very possible outs with the pitcher batting 9th, so hell... lets give them better odds for the other 24 with the lumber sitting on the pine..

That was Q's game to lose.. Let him atleast start the 9th and if he sputters with the first 2 batters, then call in the shock troops.. He had the magic on the mound, ride the storm out, REO Speedwagon...

Ok, I'm done with my two coppers in the fountain... Lets go romp on some Cubbies to salve the wound..

BK59

soxinem1
06-18-2012, 05:59 PM
Isn't like... 4/5 of the Rangers' Opening Day starting rotation in the Disabled List?

Holland was sick from major weight loss and Feliz is a converted reliever. The rest are fine.

Besides, there are a lot of team with a starter on the DL, including us. And I do not think it is because of pitch counts.

TDog
06-18-2012, 06:15 PM
We're getting him back from the Yankees? And he's pitching?

Our pitching must be in worse shape than we thought.

Sorry. The Giants called up Chris Stewart him up last year the day after Buster Posey was injured so I watched him catch all last summer. At least I didn't confuse Zach Stewart with Ian Stewart, who I like to imagine talks like Scottish racing legend Jackie Stewart. I'm sure he doesn't, I just think it would be cool if he introduced himself in a Jackie Stewart accent.

Frater Perdurabo
06-18-2012, 06:42 PM
Sorry. The Giants called up Chris Stewart him up last year the day after Buster Posey was injured so I watched him catch all last summer. At least I didn't confuse Zach Stewart with Ian Stewart, who I like to imagine talks like Scottish racing legend Jackie Stewart. I'm sure he doesn't, I just think it would be cool if he introduced himself in a Jackie Stewart accent.

You must have felt like Jimmy Stewart.

tstrike2000
06-18-2012, 07:01 PM
You must have felt like Jimmy Stewart.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTA9DVzM0BZAhSV-_-bQ9xKI9UOw-H9bK3laMIQ9y_BzRzEfMtU

"Wellll, it's certainly a wonderful life to see Zach Stewart pitching against the Cubbies. I saw a World Series game at Wrigley once, in....WW2 was it? I can't remember, that was a long ass time ago."

DSpivack
06-18-2012, 07:11 PM
Sorry. The Giants called up Chris Stewart him up last year the day after Buster Posey was injured so I watched him catch all last summer. At least I didn't confuse Zach Stewart with Ian Stewart, who I like to imagine talks like Scottish racing legend Jackie Stewart. I'm sure he doesn't, I just think it would be cool if he introduced himself in a Jackie Stewart accent.

You must have felt like Jimmy Stewart.

At least Chris Stewart wasn't catching Josh Stewart.

Frater Perdurabo
06-18-2012, 07:23 PM
At least Chris Stewart wasn't catching Josh Stewart.

Or Josh catching Chris.

ChiSoxGirl
06-18-2012, 10:26 PM
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTA9DVzM0BZAhSV-_-bQ9xKI9UOw-H9bK3laMIQ9y_BzRzEfMtU

"Wellll, it's certainly a wonderful life to see Zach Stewart pitching against the Cubbies. I saw a World Series game at Wrigley once, in....WW2 was it? I can't remember, that was a long ass time ago."

:roflmao:

mahagga73
06-18-2012, 10:28 PM
I think yanking him would have a worse impact on future games than benefit. Yanking him with under 80 pitches would give Quintana the impression that Robin doesn't have full confidence in him. There is ZERO logic in doing what Robin did.
It seems like Robin is always looking ahead,like it's a given the Sox are even going to be in it at the end.

mahagga73
06-18-2012, 10:32 PM
I think yanking him would have a worse impact on future games than benefit. Yanking him with under 80 pitches would give Quintana the impression that Robin doesn't have full confidence in him. There is ZERO logic in doing what Robin did.
tell that to Farmio,he made a point pre-game to say he disagreed with 99 percent of Sox nation to Ventura.His logic was that Reed is the closer and he needs the carrot of a save dangled in front of him to keep him motivated,whatever the hell that means. He is either suckin up or he got wind of too much air pollution in LA and it's effected his brain.

mahagga73
06-18-2012, 10:33 PM
At least Chris Stewart wasn't catching Josh Stewart.
Tony Stewart would have a better ERA than Zach Stewart in my opinion.

JB98
06-18-2012, 10:37 PM
tell that to Farmio,he made a point pre-game to say he disagreed with 99 percent of Sox nation to Ventura.His logic was that Reed is the closer and he needs the carrot of a save dangled in front of him to keep him motivated,whatever the hell that means. He is either suckin up or he got wind of too much air pollution in LA and it's effected his brain.

Additional proof we have the worst radio team in MLB. That's gotta be the dumbest reason to change pitchers I've ever heard in my life.

mahagga73
06-18-2012, 10:37 PM
I didn't realize the outcome of tomorrow's game has already been decided. Good to know, now I don't have to watch.
as it turned out it wasn't worth watching,Stewart performed as most thought he would. They got whomped on their home field by a minor league team.

fusillirob1983
06-18-2012, 11:43 PM
In the Tigers opener, Leyland pulled Verlander after eight in a 2-0 game and brought in Valverde, who gave up two runs. In Verlander's next start when Leyland left Verlander in for the ninth in the same situation, but Verlander was much more dominant against the Rays, having given up only one hit and one walk. He picked up another strikeout in the ninth, but he left with the score tied after three hits and a walk. All four runners would score.

On each occasion, Leyland was managing by the book.

In the opener against the Red Sox, Verlander threw 104 pitches through 8 innings. In the game against the Rays, Verlander threw 81 pitches through 8 innings. Yes, you are right. Leyland definitely managed by the book. I think most managers would have sent out Valverde against the Red Sox. I think most would have sent Verlander out against the Rays. Unfortunately the move in the second game backfired, but I wouldn't second guess that decision one bit and neither would most fans, the media, etc. Valverde has been closing for several years too. Addison Reed has been closing for what, a month? He hasn't always looked unhittable either, and his WHIP is nothing to celebrate.

Quintana's pitch counts this season:
5/7 vs. Cleveland - 80

5/25 vs. Cleveland - 107

5/30 vs. Tampa Bay - 51 (Ejected in the 4th inning)

6/6 vs. Toronto - 92

6/12 vs. St. Louis - 76. At this point in the game Quintana had just given up 3 hits to Holliday, Craig and Freese, respectively and had given up 10 total hits that game. Greene was coming up and already had two hits off Quintana and is a righty. There was a runner on first and second, one out. The Sox had a one run lead. It was probably time to take him out to stop the bleeding. Robin brought in Nate Jones for the righty/righty matchup and induced a double play. I completely agree with Robin's move here. This was probably the right move, and not because it worked, but because in context, he realized what was going on and gave his team a better chance to get out of the inning. Robin has done this on several occasions and has really picked up on when his pitcher doesn't have any more that game.

As several others have mentioned, Robin's explanation for bringing in Reed yesterday didn't seem to have a reason behind it. He might as well have said, "because I said so."