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gosox41
06-10-2012, 10:07 PM
How much longer is this guy going to be in the rotation? For all but 4 starts, he has been terrible. The perfect game was damn impressive. But ever since he's been worse then bad.

Bad would be a 6 ERA. I think Humber is closer to an 8 ERA over the last 9 games. How does a starter who threw a perfect game go downhill so fast. How does a starter just piss away almost 1/3 of a season like this. I didn't expect him to be as good as last year, but I am sure Stewart or Axelrod can put up better numbers over a period of starts then Phil has.

To call this guy a major league pitcher right now is an insult to major leage pitchers. I'd trade that perfect game for 5 quality starts. Time for Phil to go to the minors and work on whatever issues he is having. I don't quite muich care what they are. All I know is this team is in first place now and thsi guy can single handedly pitch us out of first base in two ways: 1. Losing games he pitchers and 2. the extra wear and tear he is putting on the bullpen.

So, Phil, we should add on to that Illinois lotto commercial:

'Can you beleive a guy from some town, Texas can pitch a perfect game' should be 'Can you believe a first place major league baseball team keeps trotting out a guy whose ERA seems to go up by the start?'

Anyone else think Phil needs to go somewhere else, hopefully permanently, to figure this out?

On a semi-side note. I've been keeping my mouth shut too much this last couple of years when it comes to players being terrible and not being called out by me (though thankfully others have.) But today was the last straw. A weak Houston team is in our park and we lost 2 of 3. It's an embarassment.

If Phil would be capable of actually pitching, this game should be a blow out.


Bob

BigHurt3515
06-10-2012, 10:17 PM
Simple Solution: Quintana goes in Humber's spot in the rotation. Humber goes to the bullpen, Stewart goes to AAA

Jurr
06-10-2012, 10:24 PM
Yeah, I think that's the play.

Sale
Peavy
Floyd
Danks
Quintana

....and hope nobody gets hurt or falls apart.

LoveYourSuit
06-10-2012, 11:34 PM
Yeah, I think that's the play.

Sale
Peavy
Floyd
Danks
Quintana

....and hope nobody gets hurt or falls apart.

I have not followed the farm this year, but is there anything down there worthy of a shot?

Who's the guy we got for Santos?

BigKlu59
06-10-2012, 11:53 PM
Yup, I think Phil needs some work in the pen on his mechanics.. Happens to the best of them. I think Coop needs to spend some time with Gavin as well. Mental, Motion, Mechanics... I'm ok with Q stepping up. He's shown some promise..

BK59

slavko
06-10-2012, 11:57 PM
After he got past the 2 run inning, he cruised until the 5th, good as he could be. Then the wheels fell off. Sort of like I play golf. He needs some coaching. Maybe the same kind Lucas Harrell is getting. (Sorry, Coop.)

JB98
06-11-2012, 12:14 AM
How much longer is this guy going to be in the rotation? For all but 4 starts, he has been terrible. The perfect game was damn impressive. But ever since he's been worse then bad.

Bad would be a 6 ERA. I think Humber is closer to an 8 ERA over the last 9 games. How does a starter who threw a perfect game go downhill so fast. How does a starter just piss away almost 1/3 of a season like this. I didn't expect him to be as good as last year, but I am sure Stewart or Axelrod can put up better numbers over a period of starts then Phil has.

To call this guy a major league pitcher right now is an insult to major leage pitchers. I'd trade that perfect game for 5 quality starts. Time for Phil to go to the minors and work on whatever issues he is having. I don't quite muich care what they are. All I know is this team is in first place now and thsi guy can single handedly pitch us out of first base in two ways: 1. Losing games he pitchers and 2. the extra wear and tear he is putting on the bullpen.

So, Phil, we should add on to that Illinois lotto commercial:

'Can you beleive a guy from some town, Texas can pitch a perfect game' should be 'Can you believe a first place major league baseball team keeps trotting out a guy whose ERA seems to go up by the start?'

Anyone else think Phil needs to go somewhere else, hopefully permanently, to figure this out?

On a semi-side note. I've been keeping my mouth shut too much this last couple of years when it comes to players being terrible and not being called out by me (though thankfully others have.) But today was the last straw. A weak Houston team is in our park and we lost 2 of 3. It's an embarassment.

If Phil would be capable of actually pitching, this game should be a blow out.


Bob

That isn't happening. He's out of options. He'd have to be DFA, and no doubt some other team would claim him. If somebody wanted Eric Stults, somebody would want Phil Humber.

If Humber fails again in his next start against the Dodgers, I'm on board with moving him into the bullpen to work out his problems. But designating him for assignment? That's just poor roster management, and Sox brass is not that stupid.

JB98
06-11-2012, 12:31 AM
After he got past the 2 run inning, he cruised until the 5th, good as he could be. Then the wheels fell off. Sort of like I play golf. He needs some coaching. Maybe the same kind Lucas Harrell is getting. (Sorry, Coop.)

Lucas Harrell's ERA is 4.83. His WHIP is 1.41. And he pitches in a league where they allow pitchers to bat.

Humber's WHIP is 1.43.

Harrell sucked when he was with the Sox. He sucks now too. He is not missed.

JB98
06-11-2012, 12:34 AM
I have not followed the farm this year, but is there anything down there worthy of a shot?

Who's the guy we got for Santos?

Nestor Molina is currently 4-5 with a 4.66 ERA at Birmingham. 75.1 IP, 94 H, 54 Ks, 16 BBs.

Seems like he's throwing strikes, but he's also getting hit. Don't think he's an answer at this time.

Axelrod is probably the best option in Charlotte, and well, I'd prefer not to see that movie. The best possible solution is Floyd and Humber getting their **** together. They have far better stuff than any of these other people.

hawkjt
06-11-2012, 01:03 AM
How much longer is this guy going to be in the rotation? For all but 4 starts, he has been terrible. The perfect game was damn impressive. But ever since he's been worse then bad.

Bad would be a 6 ERA. I think Humber is closer to an 8 ERA over the last 9 games. How does a starter who threw a perfect game go downhill so fast. How does a starter just piss away almost 1/3 of a season like this. I didn't expect him to be as good as last year, but I am sure Stewart or Axelrod can put up better numbers over a period of starts then Phil has.

To call this guy a major league pitcher right now is an insult to major leage pitchers. I'd trade that perfect game for 5 quality starts. Time for Phil to go to the minors and work on whatever issues he is having. I don't quite muich care what they are. All I know is this team is in first place now and thsi guy can single handedly pitch us out of first base in two ways: 1. Losing games he pitchers and 2. the extra wear and tear he is putting on the bullpen.

So, Phil, we should add on to that Illinois lotto commercial:

'Can you beleive a guy from some town, Texas can pitch a perfect game' should be 'Can you believe a first place major league baseball team keeps trotting out a guy whose ERA seems to go up by the start?'

Anyone else think Phil needs to go somewhere else, hopefully permanently, to figure this out?

On a semi-side note. I've been keeping my mouth shut too much this last couple of years when it comes to players being terrible and not being called out by me (though thankfully others have.) But today was the last straw. A weak Houston team is in our park and we lost 2 of 3. It's an embarassment.

If Phil would be capable of actually pitching, this game should be a blow out.


Bob

Check your stats. Humber had 11 starts. 6 of them he has allowed 3 ERs or less. 5 of them he has stunk. He had stunk a lot lately but he still has over 50% good starts.

He struck out 9 guys so he had a good breaking ball today.
I think part of his problem,along with Gavin,is that they are fly ball curve ball pitchers,and in Soxpark, they do not get away with any bad pitches.
They fly out.

Lets see how Humber does in Dodger Stadium,where the balls do not fly out as readily.
Who you putting in the 5 man rotation this week if you ship Humber out?
Danks is not ready yet. So you have Quintana in the rotation already,along with Peavy,Sale and Floyd....Stewart? Right.

Humber has until Danks gets back to right his ship. I still think he is close,but his mistakes,along with Gavin(4 hits on Friday nite in 6 innings,but 3 homers)...get hammered.

Madvora
06-11-2012, 07:30 AM
This seems like the kind of situation where Danny Wright would have "earned" his spot back in the rotation.

slavko
06-11-2012, 08:12 AM
Nestor Molina is currently 4-5 with a 4.66 ERA at Birmingham. 75.1 IP, 94 H, 54 Ks, 16 BBs.

Seems like he's throwing strikes, but he's also getting hit. Don't think he's an answer at this time.

Axelrod is probably the best option in Charlotte, and well, I'd prefer not to see that movie. The best possible solution is Floyd and Humber getting their **** together. They have far better stuff than any of these other people.

You are more than correct. They have crazy good stuff. And a track record of great success at times. But Mike MacDougal had great stuff and we know how that ended.

Hitmen77
06-11-2012, 08:40 AM
Humber isn't going anywhere until Danks returns. At that point, the only place he'd be going is the bullpen.

Even when Danks does come back, Phil's status might all depend on whether Quintana continues to pitch well. If Quintana starts getting lit up, as much as I'd like to see Humber moved to the pen, I'm not sure who takes his place in the rotation.

doublem23
06-11-2012, 09:54 AM
Axelrod is probably the best option in Charlotte, and well, I'd prefer not to see that movie. The best possible solution is Floyd and Humber getting their **** together. They have far better stuff than any of these other people.

Right, the Sox aren't going anywhere with Molina and/or Axelrod pitching every 5 days. Only hope is to keep giving Floyd and Danks their regular turns and just hope they can find the touch again.

Chez
06-11-2012, 10:28 AM
After he got past the 2 run inning, he cruised until the 5th, good as he could be. Then the wheels fell off. Sort of like I play golf. He needs some coaching. Maybe the same kind Lucas Harrell is getting. (Sorry, Coop.)


Agree. I know Coop is somewhat of a sacred cow among Sox fans, but he needs to try something new to get through to Gavin and to Humber.

Foulke You
06-11-2012, 10:40 AM
Agree. I know Coop is somewhat of a sacred cow among Sox fans, but he needs to try something new to get through to Gavin and to Humber.

Cooper is a big reason Floyd and Humber have a career right now. Gavin was a castoff from Philly and Humber was a castoff from KC, Minny, and the Mets. Both were molded here into serviceable starting pitchers. I'm sure Coop is trying to correct their issues and is not twiddling his thumbs.

Golden Sox
06-11-2012, 10:42 AM
On Mulligan and Hanley this morning they said the big rumor out there today in baseball is the White Sox are trying to get Zack Grienke from the Brewers. They didn't say who the White Sox would have to give up but it looks like KW is trying to improve the team. Maybe the Brewers will want both Floyd and Humber for Grienke. We shall see.

Lip Man 1
06-11-2012, 10:53 AM
According to the story in the Sun-Times today (Toni Gianetti) Robin made for the first time a comment that leads you to believe the Sox are now thinking about Humber being moved to the bullpen.

Paraphrasing the quote Robin said he's got to keep pitching to get his stuff back but then specifically said that could be either starting or in the bullpen.

Lip

kittle42
06-11-2012, 10:54 AM
On Mulligan and Hanley this morning they said the big rumor out there today in baseball is the White Sox are trying to get Zack Grienke from the Brewers. They didn't say who the White Sox would have to give up but it looks like KW is trying to improve the team. Maybe the Brewers will want both Floyd and Humber for Grienke. We shall see.

I really don't see what the Sox have to trade away.

DonnieDarko
06-11-2012, 10:55 AM
I really don't see what the Sox have to trade away.

This.

shingo10
06-11-2012, 11:00 AM
I really don't see what the Sox have to trade away.


I don't mean to be blasphemous but A.J, Konerko, Dunn, and De Aza are all having great years and probably tradeable at this point. If you package one of those guys with a young reliever or starting pitcher then who knows.

I know A.J and Paulie have the 10/5 thing going but you never know.

Also, does anyone know how the two guys we got for Quentin are faring? I was excited by that deal because I thought we were getting some good arms. Apparently not good enough.

Harry Potter
06-11-2012, 11:09 AM
Also, does anyone know how the two guys we got for Quentin are faring? I was excited by that deal because I thought we were getting some good arms. Apparently not good enough.

Simon Castro (AA): 5-3, 3.65 ERA, 15 BB, 65 SO
Pedro Hernandez (AA): 7-2, 2.91 ERA, 18 BB, 31 SO

doublem23
06-11-2012, 11:10 AM
I don't mean to be blasphemous but A.J, Konerko, Dunn, and De Aza are all having great years and probably tradeable at this point. If you package one of those guys with a young reliever or starting pitcher then who knows.

I know A.J and Paulie have the 10/5 thing going but you never know.

Also, does anyone know how the two guys we got for Quentin are faring? I was excited by that deal because I thought we were getting some good arms. Apparently not good enough.

What's the point of trading pieces off the MLB roster to acquire other pieces for the MLB roster? Talk about robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Castros' not having a bad year in AA, but I can't believe anyone would have expected us to get anything for Quentin.

As for Greinke, I'm all for it, I don't know how much Milwaukee would want for him, I don't know if we'd have enough, but maybe something centered around Jared Mitchell could work? Hope it happens.

sox1970
06-11-2012, 11:11 AM
I don't mean to be blasphemous but A.J, Konerko, Dunn, and De Aza are all having great years and probably tradeable at this point. If you package one of those guys with a young reliever or starting pitcher then who knows.

I know A.J and Paulie have the 10/5 thing going but you never know.

Also, does anyone know how the two guys we got for Quentin are faring? I was excited by that deal because I thought we were getting some good arms. Apparently not good enough.

Oh yeah, I'm sure the Sox are in hurry to trade De Aza, Konerko, or Pierzynski.

Hernandez and Castro are having good seasons, besides Hernandez being on the DL.

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?t=t_ibp&cid=247&stn=true&sid=t247

KMcMahon817
06-11-2012, 11:20 AM
Grienke is a FA after this season. It wouldn't take a massive package to get him. Sox have the bullets...but they would likely have to use their best two to get him.

Bucky F. Dent
06-11-2012, 11:43 AM
Grienke is a FA after this season. It wouldn't take a massive package to get him. Sox have the bullets...but they would likely have to use their best two to get him.


I'm not willing to bankrupt our farm system again for a FA Zach Grienke.

kittle42
06-11-2012, 11:50 AM
I'm not willing to bankrupt our farm system again for a FA Zach Grienke.

It's already bankrupt.

shingo10
06-11-2012, 12:06 PM
Oh yeah, I'm sure the Sox are in hurry to trade De Aza, Konerko, or Pierzynski.

Hernandez and Castro are having good seasons, besides Hernandez being on the DL.

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?t=t_ibp&cid=247&stn=true&sid=t247


Encouraging news about our young arms. And no I'm sure the Sox aren't in a hurry to get rid of those guys but I'm just trying to think of what we have to offer that's any good. A.J. will be a free agent so there's always the possibility of sending him to a contender which Milwaukee is definitely not at this point.

kittle42
06-11-2012, 12:09 PM
Encouraging news about our young arms. And no I'm sure the Sox aren't in a hurry to get rid of those guys but I'm just trying to think of what we have to offer that's any good. A.J. will be a free agent so there's always the possibility of sending him to a contender which Milwaukee is definitely not at this point.

We cannot fill a hole by creating another one. Losing even one of AJ, De Aza, Konerko, etc. would be devastating and would completely cut against the reason for acquiring someone like Greinke to start with.

JB98
06-11-2012, 12:11 PM
You are more than correct. They have crazy good stuff. And a track record of great success at times. But Mike MacDougal had great stuff and we know how that ended.

The point is, though, that Floyd and Humber remain the Sox best internal options for the 4 and 5 spots in the rotation. It may be time for Quintana to take Humber's spot in the rotation because Phil might very well need a stay in the bullpen to work out his problems. But there isn't any help on the way from the minor leagues anytime soon, so I can't agree with any poster who wants to send Humber down or start DFA'ing people. That's unreasonable.

FielderJones
06-11-2012, 12:30 PM
We cannot fill a hole by creating another one. Losing even one of AJ, De Aza, Konerko, etc. would be devastating and would completely cut against the reason for acquiring someone like Greinke to start with.

:thumbsup:

This would seem to be an easy, intuitive concept to understand.

getonbckthr
06-11-2012, 01:08 PM
What would we need to add to a package of Mitchell and Nate Jones?

doublem23
06-11-2012, 01:12 PM
What would we need to add to a package of Mitchell and Nate Jones?

Well let's first subtract Jones

getonbckthr
06-11-2012, 01:17 PM
Well let's first subtract Jones

You don't think teams would have interest in Jones? Also if Jerry would be willing to take back Francisco Rodriguez i'm sure Milwaukee would lessen their demands. Not saying I would do that but just saying its an option.

Moses_Scurry
06-11-2012, 03:23 PM
You don't think teams would have interest in Jones? Also if Jerry would be willing to take back Francisco Rodriguez i'm sure Milwaukee would lessen their demands. Not saying I would do that but just saying its an option.

I think he doesn't want to get rid of Jones.

What about Mitchell and one of Molina/Castro/Hernandez with the Sox taking all of Greinke's salary?

palehozenychicty
06-11-2012, 03:39 PM
I think he doesn't want to get rid of Jones.

What about Mitchell and one of Molina/Castro/Hernandez with the Sox taking all of Greinke's salary?

I stay away from Greinke. Just not a fan.

Tragg
06-11-2012, 04:21 PM
My goodness. Why do we want to throw away any future for 1/2 year player? (I believe grienke is a free agent after this year). As it is, he's had only one elite year in his career. Mitchell's progress is about online to replace Rios after 2013. We can't trade all of our young players. That's the nonsense that has put us into this mess.

And when WE trade vets, where the heck is our "package". We get Zack Stewart and a mediocre middle reliever. Now admittedly Jackson isn't a great pitcher by any means - and we should have never given up our top pitching prospect for him and his 1.4 WHIP.

No more trades from Kenny Williams, please. Either teams won't trade with him because if they can't fleece us, as so many others have done, they won't do business with him; or the scouting and other work he puts in are insufficient. Either way, it's been years since he made a single good trade. Stick with his strengths -waiver wire pickups.

shingo10
06-11-2012, 04:32 PM
My goodness. Why do we want to throw away any future for 1/2 year player? (I believe grienke is a free agent after this year). Mitchell's progress is about online to replace Rios after 2013.

And when WE trade vets, where the heck is our "package". We get Zack Stewart and a mediocre middle reliever.

No more trades from Kenny Williams, please. Either teams won't trade with him because if they can't fleece us, as so many others have done, they won't do business with him; or the scouting and other work he puts in are insufficient. Either way, it's been years since he made a single good trade. Stick with his strengths -waiver wire pickups.

You don't think trading three bums away for a cy young pitcher in his prime was a good one? Obviously we all know how it turned out but I would hope whoever the Sox GM is would make that deal every time. The injuries were unfortunate but I still like that move.

Also getting anything for Quentin was a pretty big plus as a lot of people on here have said.

And let's not forget the "vets" we traded were Edwin Jackson and Mark Teahen...not exactly superstars.

All that said your point is well taken about throwing the future away for half a season. It was a gamble when we did it with Garcia but the knowledge that him and Ozzie were close made it worth the risk. To do it on a whim is a different story.

doublem23
06-11-2012, 05:12 PM
My goodness. Why do we want to throw away any future for 1/2 year player? (I believe grienke is a free agent after this year). As it is, he's had only one elite year in his career. Mitchell's progress is about online to replace Rios after 2013. We can't trade all of our young players. That's the nonsense that has put us into this mess.

And when WE trade vets, where the heck is our "package". We get Zack Stewart and a mediocre middle reliever. Now admittedly Jackson isn't a great pitcher by any means - and we should have never given up our top pitching prospect for him and his 1.4 WHIP.

No more trades from Kenny Williams, please. Either teams won't trade with him because if they can't fleece us, as so many others have done, they won't do business with him; or the scouting and other work he puts in are insufficient. Either way, it's been years since he made a single good trade. Stick with his strengths -waiver wire pickups.

Ha ha, just as silly as keeping a bunch of prospects and praying they turn out.

The Sox have a chance now. Worry about 2014 in 2014.

KMcMahon817
06-11-2012, 05:24 PM
Ha ha, just as silly as keeping a bunch of prospects and praying they turn out.

The Sox have a chance now. Worry about 2014 in 2014.

Agreed. **** waiting for the future. Why wait for the future when the future looks ****ty? If you can get Grienke for Thompson or Mitchell and basically anyone from the minors you do it.

Also, whoever said trading prospects for veterans got us into this mess...What mess? Doesn't look too messy to me.

Foulke You
06-11-2012, 06:13 PM
That's the nonsense that has put us into this mess.
This "mess" team is in first place right now despite paring down payroll this year.

and we should have never given up our top pitching prospect for him and his 1.4 WHIP.
That top pitching prospect has an E.R.A. over 6 right now for the D'backs. Hudson's success last year may have been fleeting. Also, in 2010, Hudson was getting hammered in the AL while we were in the thick of a pennant race. Edwin pitched well down the stretch for us too. The bullpen fell apart at the end of 2010 due to injuries and overwork.

No more trades from Kenny Williams, please. Either teams won't trade with him because if they can't fleece us, as so many others have done, they won't do business with him; or the scouting and other work he puts in are insufficient. Either way, it's been years since he made a single good trade. Stick with his strengths -waiver wire pickups.
You are going to hit and you are going to miss with trades when you are a GM. Right now, the Quentin deal is looking promising. It opened the door for Viciedo to take over and we got some young arms with upside in return. The Toronto deal for Stewart was more about dumping Mark Teahen's contract than it was about Edwin. Peavy trade was a gamble and KW mostly lost out other than this year. However, we didn't give up any future all stars to get him. I've always liked KW's aggressiveness at the deadline. He is always thinking about another World Series with his moves and it is hard to fault a GM for that line of thinking. All you need to do is look at the 2012 Brewers and Twins to see how fast you can fall from contending. Sometimes you need to go for it when you have a chance.

dickallen15
06-11-2012, 08:19 PM
How much longer is this guy going to be in the rotation? For all but 4 starts, he has been terrible. The perfect game was damn impressive. But ever since he's been worse then bad.

Bad would be a 6 ERA. I think Humber is closer to an 8 ERA over the last 9 games. How does a starter who threw a perfect game go downhill so fast. How does a starter just piss away almost 1/3 of a season like this. I didn't expect him to be as good as last year, but I am sure Stewart or Axelrod can put up better numbers over a period of starts then Phil has.

To call this guy a major league pitcher right now is an insult to major leage pitchers. I'd trade that perfect game for 5 quality starts. Time for Phil to go to the minors and work on whatever issues he is having. I don't quite muich care what they are. All I know is this team is in first place now and thsi guy can single handedly pitch us out of first base in two ways: 1. Losing games he pitchers and 2. the extra wear and tear he is putting on the bullpen.

So, Phil, we should add on to that Illinois lotto commercial:

'Can you beleive a guy from some town, Texas can pitch a perfect game' should be 'Can you believe a first place major league baseball team keeps trotting out a guy whose ERA seems to go up by the start?'

Anyone else think Phil needs to go somewhere else, hopefully permanently, to figure this out?

On a semi-side note. I've been keeping my mouth shut too much this last couple of years when it comes to players being terrible and not being called out by me (though thankfully others have.) But today was the last straw. A weak Houston team is in our park and we lost 2 of 3. It's an embarassment.

If Phil would be capable of actually pitching, this game should be a blow out.


Bob


I agree. I think if he didn't throw a perfect game he may not be on the roster right now, let alone the starting rotation.

central44
06-11-2012, 09:12 PM
Ironically, an Edwin Jackson type trade might be exactly what the Sox need if Danks doesn't come back in form.

We don't need an ace. We just need someone who can win games where the offense scores 5+ runs.

Tragg
06-11-2012, 09:30 PM
You don't think trading three bums away for a cy young pitcher in his prime was a good one? Obviously we all know how it turned out but I would hope whoever the Sox GM is would make that deal every time. The injuries were unfortunate but I still like that move.

Also getting anything for Quentin was a pretty big plus as a lot of people on here have said.

And let's not forget the "vets" we traded were Edwin Jackson and Mark Teahen...not exactly superstars.

All that said your point is well taken about throwing the future away for half a season. It was a gamble when we did it with Garcia but the knowledge that him and Ozzie were close made it worth the risk. To do it on a whim is a different story.
If Edwin Jackson is so bad (and I admit he's good, not great) why did we trade our top organizational prospect and our top low minor pitching prospect for him? We can't have it both ways.
What Cy Young pitcher IN HIS PRIME did we get for 3 bums? Remind me who that was? Certainly not Peavy. We got him past his prime. As it is, we've gotten, oh, 2.25 months out of him. Hope we get a year. Don't forget the opportunity cost - could we have gotten someone who contributed more than 2.25 months for "those 3 bums" (who weren't known bums when we traded them)?
That's part of the problem - we get these guys AFTER their prime. If we want to trade for a stud, get the stud right about the time the Nats got Gio - his 6th year or so in the league.

gosox41
06-11-2012, 09:47 PM
My goodness. Why do we want to throw away any future for 1/2 year player? (I believe grienke is a free agent after this year). As it is, he's had only one elite year in his career. Mitchell's progress is about online to replace Rios after 2013. We can't trade all of our young players. That's the nonsense that has put us into this mess.

And when WE trade vets, where the heck is our "package". We get Zack Stewart and a mediocre middle reliever. Now admittedly Jackson isn't a great pitcher by any means - and we should have never given up our top pitching prospect for him and his 1.4 WHIP.

No more trades from Kenny Williams, please. Either teams won't trade with him because if they can't fleece us, as so many others have done, they won't do business with him; or the scouting and other work he puts in are insufficient. Either way, it's been years since he made a single good trade. Stick with his strengths -waiver wire pickups.

I agree. What happened to rebuilding. And if we are in contention, let's build on it for next year not trade young players that may have a future with us for a rent a player.

That's not building an organization.


Bob

Lip Man 1
06-11-2012, 09:48 PM
Hard to do unless you have the minor league talent to get a "stud" or you are willing to pay through the nose to get a player like that in free agency.

I do understand your point though.

Lip

gosox41
06-11-2012, 09:48 PM
Check your stats. Humber had 11 starts. 6 of them he has allowed 3 ERs or less. 5 of them he has stunk. He had stunk a lot lately but he still has over 50% good starts.

He struck out 9 guys so he had a good breaking ball today.
I think part of his problem,along with Gavin,is that they are fly ball curve ball pitchers,and in Soxpark, they do not get away with any bad pitches.
They fly out.

Lets see how Humber does in Dodger Stadium,where the balls do not fly out as readily.
Who you putting in the 5 man rotation this week if you ship Humber out?
Danks is not ready yet. So you have Quintana in the rotation already,along with Peavy,Sale and Floyd....Stewart? Right.

Humber has until Danks gets back to right his ship. I still think he is close,but his mistakes,along with Gavin(4 hits on Friday nite in 6 innings,but 3 homers)...get hammered.


I must have a selective memory then because I remember the perfect game, a couple of good starts, and a lot of crappy starts. He still needs to do better.


Bob

WhiteSox5187
06-11-2012, 10:05 PM
Ha ha, just as silly as keeping a bunch of prospects and praying they turn out.

The Sox have a chance now. Worry about 2014 in 2014.

That is exactly the kind of thinking that cause a team to enter a prolonged stretch of profound futility.

doublem23
06-11-2012, 10:37 PM
That is exactly the kind of thinking that cause a team to enter a prolonged stretch of profound futility.

You're right, the people last off-season who thought KW should have dismantled this team have been proven clearly right.

WhiteSox5187
06-12-2012, 12:03 AM
You're right, the people last off-season who thought KW should have dismantled this team have been proven clearly right.

:rolleyes: Kenny himself even said this year was a rebuilding year, to blow that all up for maybe half a season of Greinke (or anyone else) would be very dangerous. Now, in all likelihood you could probably get a guy like Greinke or Youkilis without giving up much but continually depleting your farm system for veterans will leave you with a lot of old guys and no young cheap guys to replace them. That is not a fun place to be unless you have a massive payroll like the Yankees or the Red Sox.

Parrothead
06-12-2012, 06:22 AM
How much longer is this guy going to be in the rotation? For all but 4 starts, he has been terrible. The perfect game was damn impressive. But ever since he's been worse then bad.

Bad would be a 6 ERA. I think Humber is closer to an 8 ERA over the last 9 games. How does a starter who threw a perfect game go downhill so fast.

I have seen enough of Danks and Floyd too. All 3 of them have been major suckage lately. Send them all down or fix em.

soxinem1
06-12-2012, 09:55 AM
As appealing as Grienke sounds, I think getting a pitcher who has his issues is not a good mix for us. I'd rather have Marcum if it was an available guy from MIL.

KW has always had his eye on Grienke so you never know........

There are other organizations that have starting pitching that will not give us a savior, and a they might be available now.

I think PHI would hand over Joe Blanton to anyone, even if they manage to crawl back in the race. Is he a stud? No. But he can pitch and would definitely give more than 4-5 innings a night. As he is a FA at the end of the year, going to a contender might bring something good from him.

Edinson Volquez is also an intriguing possibility with SD. With that ship already sunk and Volquez also being a FA after 2013, he would be a good fit in that #5. And his salary is not ridiculous either. He definitely brings the best all-around stuff of the group, and could definitely be lightning in a bottle.

TaylorStSox
06-12-2012, 10:10 AM
As appealing as Grienke sounds, I think getting a pitcher who has his issues is not a good mix for us. I'd rather have Marcum if it was an available guy from MIL.

KW has always had his eye on Grienke so you never know........

There are other organizations that have starting pitching that will not give us a savior, and a they might be available now.

I think PHI would hand over Joe Blanton to anyone, even if they manage to crawl back in the race. Is he a stud? No. But he can pitch and would definitely give more than 4-5 innings a night. As he is a FA at the end of the year, going to a contender might bring something good from him.

Edinson Volquez is also an intriguing possibility with SD. With that ship already sunk and Volquez also being a FA after 2013, he would be a good fit in that #5. And his salary is not ridiculous either. He definitely brings the best all-around stuff of the group, and could definitely be lightning in a bottle.
Volquez seems like a typical Sox target, but I would think Coop has a lot of say in whether or not the Sox try to land him.

kufram
06-12-2012, 01:56 PM
I have seen enough of Danks and Floyd too. All 3 of them have been major suckage lately. Send them all down or fix em.

That's a great plan.

kittle42
06-12-2012, 02:00 PM
Send them all down

Wait, wait - when did this become the Sox Facebook page?

soxinem1
06-12-2012, 05:47 PM
Wait, wait - when did this become the Sox Facebook page?

It hasn't. I sure haven't seen a 'Like' button anywhere..... :D:

SephClone89
06-12-2012, 07:09 PM
Wait, wait - when did this become the Sox Facebook page?

Comments on sports Facebook pages are the pits of the world.

FielderJones
06-12-2012, 10:23 PM
The Sox are playing .667 ball on the road. Maybe Robin should have them wear the grays next home stand.

Nellie_Fox
06-13-2012, 12:24 AM
I do wish people would acquaint themselves with the rules about "sending them down." It's not the fifties anymore, when teams could assign players to the minors whenever they felt like it.

Humber, Danks, and Floyd all have more than five years major-league service time. They have to be "designated for assignment." Which means they cannot be sent down without first clearing waivers. Then they'd have to consent to being outrighted to the minors, which they'd never do. They can instead demand to be released and become free agents.

Parrothead
06-13-2012, 07:05 AM
I do wish people would acquaint themselves with the rules about "sending them down." It's not the fifties anymore, when teams could assign players to the minors whenever they felt like it.

Humber, Danks, and Floyd all have more than five years major-league service time. They have to be "designated for assignment." Which means they cannot be sent down without first clearing waivers. Then they'd have to consent to being outrighted to the minors, which they'd never do. They can instead demand to be released and become free agents.

Fine by me, especially if the other team who picks up Danks who pick up his money too. That is an albatross of a contract to the Sox. As for Floyd and Humber, put me on the 'who cares" list. Quintana has been doing fine. And it seems the GREAT DON COOPER can't fix Danks, Floyd or Humber.

DumpJerry
06-13-2012, 07:17 AM
Fine by me, especially if the other team who picks up Danks who pick up his money too. That is an albatross of a contract to the Sox. As for Floyd and Humber, put me on the 'who cares" list. Quintana has been doing fine. And it seems the GREAT DON COOPER can't fix Danks, Floyd or Humber.
If a team picks up someone who has been DFA'd, they pay the league minimum, pro-rated. The old team covers the rest of the contract.

Chez
06-13-2012, 08:42 AM
I have seen enough of Danks and Floyd too. All 3 of them have been major suckage lately. Send them all down or fix em.

Yeah, Danks has done absolutely nothing the last three weeks. It's like he's not even out there.

doublem23
06-13-2012, 09:18 AM
Fine by me, especially if the other team who picks up Danks who pick up his money too. That is an albatross of a contract to the Sox. As for Floyd and Humber, put me on the 'who cares" list. Quintana has been doing fine. And it seems the GREAT DON COOPER can't fix Danks, Floyd or Humber.

This is ****ing hilarious. Quintana's looked good, but he's still thrown a total of 27 innings in his career, and never above the A+ level before this season. You think 1/2 the problem is teams don't have any tape on the guy? He is going go get figured out, unless you actually expect him to maintain his sub-2.00 ERA over the 70 innings he is on pace to pitch in the Majors (which would put his 2012 IP total higher than any year in his professional career).

Also kind of ironic to dump all over THE GREAT DON COOPER for Danks, Floyd, and Humber's struggles while simultaneously slobbering all over Quintana, who appears to be another diamond in the rough steal for the Sox pitching coaching staff.

kittle42
06-13-2012, 09:44 AM
Fine by me, especially if the other team who picks up Danks who pick up his money too. That is an albatross of a contract to the Sox. As for Floyd and Humber, put me on the 'who cares" list. Quintana has been doing fine. And it seems the GREAT DON COOPER can't fix Danks, Floyd or Humber.

Worst post of the week?

asindc
06-13-2012, 09:53 AM
Worst post of the week?

Just the week? It has all the makings of a sports talk radio call in.

kittle42
06-13-2012, 10:10 AM
Just the week? It has all the makings of a sports talk radio call in.

I stand corrected!

Release deez guys!

FoulTerritory
06-13-2012, 10:53 AM
This is ****ing hilarious. Quintana's looked good, but he's still thrown a total of 27 innings in his career, and never above the A+ level before this season. You think 1/2 the problem is teams don't have any tape on the guy? He is going go get figured out, unless you actually expect him to maintain his sub-2.00 ERA over the 70 innings he is on pace to pitch in the Majors (which would put his 2012 IP total higher than any year in his professional career).

Also kind of ironic to dump all over THE GREAT DON COOPER for Danks, Floyd, and Humber's struggles while simultaneously slobbering all over Quintana, who appears to be another diamond in the rough steal for the Sox pitching coaching staff.

I agree with your second point about Coop, but not your point about sample size. We have substantial sample sizes that show that Floyd is wildly inconsistent and that Humber is average at best and often bad. And we have a small sample size that Quintana is good. Of course Quintana won't keep his ERA under 2, but there is a chance he won't be wildly inconsistent or bad -- still making him an upgrade over Floyd or Humber.

doublem23
06-13-2012, 10:55 AM
I agree with your second point about Coop, but not your point about sample size. We have substantial sample sizes that show that Floyd is wildly inconsistent and that Humber is average at best and often bad. And we have a small sample size that Quintana is good. Of course Quintana won't keep his ERA under 2, but there is a chance he won't be wildly inconsistent or bad -- still making him an upgrade over Floyd or Humber.

That is really not how statistics work

FoulTerritory
06-13-2012, 11:12 AM
That is really not how statistics work

I wasn't trying to write a dissertation on statistical analysis. I was merely pointing out that the assertion that Quintana's sample size should keep him out of the rotation (when Danks returns) is not exactly how statistics work either.

There is more than one performance sample in play here. Besides Quintana, we have to consider Humber and Floyd.

Paulwny
06-13-2012, 11:59 AM
This is ****ing hilarious. Quintana's looked good, but he's still thrown a total of 27 innings in his career, and never above the A+ level before this season. You think 1/2 the problem is teams don't have any tape on the guy? He is going go get figured out, unless you actually expect him to maintain his sub-2.00 ERA over the 70 innings he is on pace to pitch in the Majors (which would put his 2012 IP total higher than any year in his professional career).

Also kind of ironic to dump all over THE GREAT DON COOPER for Danks, Floyd, and Humber's struggles while simultaneously slobbering all over Quintana, who appears to be another diamond in the rough steal for the Sox pitching coaching staff.


Agree, a few good/great games doesn't mean a good/great year, a good/great year doesn't mean a good/great career.
As you wrote, " he is going to be figured out", adjustments will be made, then the sox will know what they have.

Parrothead
06-13-2012, 12:43 PM
hey people say what you want but Floyd has been a sub .500 pitcher since 2009 with an ERA over 4.5. The postive he eats innings.

John Danks is basically a .500 pitcher since 2009 with an ERA of around 4. The postive he eats innings, except this year due to his injury. Of course, the question is why didn't he mention the injury earlier.

Phil Humber is basically a .500 pitcher since 2009 with an ERA of around 4.5.

All three have basically sucked this year and average at best the past 2 years. .500 pitchers are everywhere and a lot cheaper.

I would keep the guy who is pitching better and let the crappy guys come down with a mysterious injury and DL them, so I could send them down or just let someone else pick them up if they would but of course that will not happen due to the money they are owed.

I may be wrong but I would stick with Quintana until he is figured out, instead of getting our asses handed to us everytime Danks (when he comes back), Floyd or Humber pitches.

WisSoxFan
06-13-2012, 01:01 PM
hey people say what you want but Floyd has been a sub .500 pitcher since 2009 with an ERA over 4.5. The postive he eats innings.

John Danks is basically a .500 pitcher since 2009 with an ERA of around 4. The postive he eats innings, except this year due to his injury. Of course, the question is why didn't he mention the injury earlier.

Phil Humber is basically a .500 pitcher since 2009 with an ERA of around 4.5.

All three have basically sucked this year and average at best the past 2 years. .500 pitchers are everywhere and a lot cheaper.

I would keep the guy who is pitching better and let the crappy guys come down with a mysterious injury and DL them, so I could send them down or just let someone else pick them up if they would but of course that will not happen due to the money they are owed.

I may be wrong but I would stick with Quintana until he is figured out, instead of getting our asses handed to us everytime Danks (when he comes back), Floyd or Humber pitches.

Just out of curiosity who do you plan on using in the final two starting spots behind Peavy, Sale and Quintana?

kittle42
06-13-2012, 01:08 PM
.500 pitchers are everywhere

Like Felix Hernandez since 2010. He sucks.

Record is a horrible indicator of talent.

Tragg
06-13-2012, 05:17 PM
Humber, Quintana, Floyd..."they are what they are" as demonstrated by the stats above. Some years are better than others, but they're all utterly replaceable. But yet, most staffs have 1 or 2 of them.

Some Sox fans want to trade top prospects for guys like this on other teams having better years. All I ask through all of this is that we don't do that. (and, as per above posts, I'd prefer no more trades of any sort from Ken Williams).

Foulke You
06-13-2012, 05:27 PM
Like Felix Hernandez since 2010. He sucks.

Record is a horrible indicator of talent.
Especially when you factor in the woeful stretches of offense the Sox have put together in recent history. The lack of offensive production in April/May 2010 and all of 2011 alone probably cost Danks and Floyd countless wins.

kittle42
06-13-2012, 05:48 PM
Especially when you factor in the woeful stretches of offense the Sox have put together in recent history. The lack of offensive production in April/May 2010 and all of 2011 alone probably cost Danks and Floyd countless wins.

And the team itself is not that far over .500 in that time, too.

Hey, Mark Buehrle is 5-7 this season. He must be terrible.

Parrothead
06-14-2012, 06:38 AM
Just out of curiosity who do you plan on using in the final two starting spots behind Peavy, Sale and Quintana?

unfortunatley they have to use either Danks, Floyd or Humber since they will not / can't send them down or trade them. Looking back it would have been nice if they kept Gio Gonalez, who they thought enough of to take with their #1 pick and then trade twice. Yes, every team makes mistakes but that one was big as well signing Danks to a long term big money contract. At least, Floyds is up this year, well a club option.

SephClone89
06-14-2012, 07:04 AM
unfortunatley they have to use either Danks, Floyd or Humber since they will not / can't send them down or trade them. Looking back it would have been nice if they kept Gio Gonalez, who they thought enough of to take with their #1 pick and then trade twice..

This has nothing to do with anything.

kittle42
06-14-2012, 09:38 AM
unfortunatley they have to use either Danks, Floyd or Humber since they will not / can't send them down or trade them. Looking back it would have been nice if they kept Gio Gonalez, who they thought enough of to take with their #1 pick and then trade twice. Yes, every team makes mistakes but that one was big as well signing Danks to a long term big money contract. At least, Floyds is up this year, well a club option.

All over the map.

Parrothead
06-14-2012, 01:54 PM
This has nothing to do with anything.

It has to do with trading #1 prospect pitching and getting nothing in return and having nothing to replace pitchers who don't perform well.

All over the map.

Yep.

doublem23
06-14-2012, 02:32 PM
It has to do with trading #1 prospect pitching and getting nothing in return and having nothing to replace pitchers who don't perform well.

Actually if you look at what Nick Swisher has done since he went to New York, the Sox got a fabulous return for Gio, he was unfortunately run out of town but it's pretty clear the mistake wasn't trading Gio, it was the Sox dumping Swisher with no leverage instead of trading away Dye coming off a strong 2008 campaign and letting Nick settle in as a long-term answer at RF or LF.

Tragg
06-14-2012, 11:19 PM
Actually if you look at what Nick Swisher has done since he went to New York, the Sox got a fabulous return for Gio,
I wouldn't call the return fabulous, especially considering that Ryan Sweeney would easily make this roster.
Still, the bigger goof was just giving Swisher away for nothing.

Kenny Williams rarely trades from a position of leverage, and when he does, he refuses to use it, as per BOTH Jackson trades. Arizona wanted to dump salary, and Williams paid full price plus . When he traded Jackson at the deadline, he dealt him for a declining low-upside prospect and a middle reliever we didn't need. Any competent tradesman, could have gotten at least 1 legitimate prospect in that exchange. Williams whiffed....again.

kittle42
06-14-2012, 11:23 PM
Kenny Williams rarely trades from a position of leverage, and when he does, he refuses to use it, as per BOTH Jackson trades. Arizona wanted to dump salary, and Williams paid full price plus . When he traded Jackson at the deadline, he dealt him for a declining low-upside prospect and a middle reliever we didn't need. Any competent tradesman, could have gotten at least 1 legitimate prospect in that exchange. Williams whiffed....again.

I couldn't agree more.

doublem23
06-14-2012, 11:50 PM
I wouldn't call the return fabulous, especially considering that Ryan Sweeney would easily make this roster.
Still, the bigger goof was just giving Swisher away for nothing.

Kenny Williams rarely trades from a position of leverage, and when he does, he refuses to use it, as per BOTH Jackson trades. Arizona wanted to dump salary, and Williams paid full price plus . When he traded Jackson at the deadline, he dealt him for a declining low-upside prospect and a middle reliever we didn't need. Any competent tradesman, could have gotten at least 1 legitimate prospect in that exchange. Williams whiffed....again.

Um, Ryan Sweeney sucks.

You're also forgetting that in trading away Jackson he was also able to get the Jays to absorb Teahen's terrible contract.

Frater Perdurabo
06-15-2012, 08:03 AM
Um, Ryan Sweeney sucks.

You're also forgetting that in trading away Jackson he was also able to get the Jays to absorb Teahen's terrible contract.

Yes, but that also brings up KW's poor decision to trade for Teahen and give him that terrible contract extension.

KW did a lot of damage with the Swisher and Jackson trades; all we have left is Zach Stewart. If we had won the division in 2010 with Teahen and Jackson, we might look at things differently. OTOH, Floyd and Humber (instead of Gio and Hudson) might cost us the division this year.

Tragg
06-15-2012, 08:37 AM
Um, Ryan Sweeney sucks.

You're also forgetting that in trading away Jackson he was also able to get the Jays to absorb Teahen's terrible contract.
And your description of Fukudome? Or Wise the years we used him? Juan Pierre? Jerry Owens? Like I said - Sweeney would make this roster EASILY and would have for each of the last several years.
Absorbing Teahen's contract would mean something had he taken the savings and re-invested them in the team - he didn't. It would also be more compelling had Williams not been the one who gave Teahen that contract, sight unseen, in the first place.

doublem23
06-15-2012, 08:58 AM
Fukudome and Sweeney are basically interchangeable parts, I would assume the difference in their numbers this year is that Sweeney has been pressed into everyday playing time because the Sawx outfield has been ravaged by injuries while Fukudome was basically getting 4 plate appearances per week for the Sox. I really have no doubt that Fukudome would be hitting somewhere around his career line if he was the Red Sox's regular RF and we'd all be looking to run Sweeney out of town on the next train if he was riding the pine 6 of 7 days.

Frater Perdurabo
06-15-2012, 09:51 AM
Fukudome and Sweeney are basically interchangeable parts, I would assume the difference in their numbers this year is that Sweeney has been pressed into everyday playing time because the Sawx outfield has been ravaged by injuries while Fukudome was basically getting 4 plate appearances per week for the Sox. I really have no doubt that Fukudome would be hitting somewhere around his career line if he was the Red Sox's regular RF and we'd all be looking to run Sweeney out of town on the next train if he was riding the pine 6 of 7 days.

It's not Fukudome v. Sweeney, but rather Rios v. Sweeney. Rios is having a very nice season, so I'm not ripping on him. But he's not producing significantly better than Sweeney such that it justifies the massive difference in their salaries. That money could have been better spent elsewhere; right now the Sox could have had a rotation with Sale, Peavy, Gio, Hudson, Buehrle, and Danks as the long man/6th starter.

Tragg
06-15-2012, 11:32 AM
Fukudome and Sweeney are basically interchangeable parts, I would assume the difference in their numbers this year is that Sweeney has been pressed into everyday playing time because the Sawx outfield has been ravaged by injuries while Fukudome was basically getting 4 plate appearances per week for the Sox. .
I would say it's more that Fukudome is a declining player in his mid 30s, while Sweeney is reaching his peak. There are plenty of bench players who can best Fukudome's sub- .200. Considering that Fukudome also had an awful year in Cleveland last year, I'd take Sweeney in a heartbeat. He's a competent player. Wise and Owens were not. And Fukudome is not.

Regardless, Williams hasn't made a particularly good trade in ages, and has made numerous bad trades over the last few years, even when having "hand". I'd prefer him not to trade at all.
People say that getting "anything" for Quentin, who is a prolific hitter, was a plus....that's just apologizing, as will be seen this FA season.

doublem23
06-15-2012, 01:33 PM
It's not Fukudome v. Sweeney, but rather Rios v. Sweeney. Rios is having a very nice season, so I'm not ripping on him. But he's not producing significantly better than Sweeney such that it justifies the massive difference in their salaries. That money could have been better spent elsewhere; right now the Sox could have had a rotation with Sale, Peavy, Gio, Hudson, Buehrle, and Danks as the long man/6th starter.

Probably not, as the Sox would have had to wait years on Gio and Hudson to turn into competent starters; Gio was a ridiculous walk machine in Oakland and his numbers are really only saved by the fact that the A's play in a canyon. Seems like he's turned the corner this year, finally. Hudson was never anything that special and now he's hurt. The point, however is, that if the Sox had stuck with those two guys, the Sox would probably be coming off 2 or 3 consecutive 90+ loss seasons, and considering how pathetically fickle our fans our (I mean, we can't even be bothered to show up for a 1st place team), it's probably unlikely the Sox could have held on to Mark "I'm Only Here for the Paycheck" Buehrle and may have even had to sell low on Peavy, as well. It's probably much more likely the Sox would be starting Sale, Gio, Hudson, Floyd, and Humber, and woo, we'd have career journeyman/4th OF Ryan Sweeney in RF. Super duper!

kufram
06-15-2012, 02:59 PM
Probably not, as the Sox would have had to wait years on Gio and Hudson to turn into competent starters; Gio was a ridiculous walk machine in Oakland and his numbers are really only saved by the fact that the A's play in a canyon. Seems like he's turned the corner this year, finally. Hudson was never anything that special and now he's hurt. The point, however is, that if the Sox had stuck with those two guys, the Sox would probably be coming off 2 or 3 consecutive 90+ loss seasons, and considering how pathetically fickle our fans our (I mean, we can't even be bothered to show up for a 1st place team), it's probably unlikely the Sox could have held on to Mark "I'm Only Here for the Paycheck" Buehrle and may have even had to sell low on Peavy, as well. It's probably much more likely the Sox would be starting Sale, Gio, Hudson, Floyd, and Humber, and woo, we'd have career journeyman/4th OF Ryan Sweeney in RF. Super duper!


I guess first place just isn't good enough.

gosox41
06-20-2012, 10:07 PM
I guess first place just isn't good enough.


Jusy wasn't good enough.:D:

Falstaff
06-24-2012, 02:01 AM
Jamie Moyer, 1.69 ERA in AAA this year was released today.
I guess he is a free agent, maybe can plug some holes in the Sox.
Kind of reminds me of when Minny gave up on Jim Kaat and he went
on to be 20 game winner for us.

Adele_H
06-24-2012, 02:39 AM
Probably not, as the Sox would have had to wait years on Gio and Hudson to turn into competent starters; Gio was a ridiculous walk machine in Oakland and his numbers are really only saved by the fact that the A's play in a canyon. Seems like he's turned the corner this year, finally. Hudson was never anything that special and now he's hurt. The point, however is, that if the Sox had stuck with those two guys, the Sox would probably be coming off 2 or 3 consecutive 90+ loss seasons, and considering how pathetically fickle our fans our (I mean, we can't even be bothered to show up for a 1st place team), it's probably unlikely the Sox could have held on to Mark "I'm Only Here for the Paycheck" Buehrle and may have even had to sell low on Peavy, as well. It's probably much more likely the Sox would be starting Sale, Gio, Hudson, Floyd, and Humber, and woo, we'd have career journeyman/4th OF Ryan Sweeney in RF. Super duper!

Kenny-pologists.....the revisionist history & various straw-men......mind boggled.

It's too late I'll just keep it short

Gio Gonzalez didn't just kinda mysteriously figure it out this year. Only saved by the A's ballpark? Please watch some games sometimes, he was at times dominant even last year in 2011, making the All-Star team remember? Let me know when the great 15-million dollar a year man John Danks makes the All-Star team even once in his career.... Gavin Floyd, too for that matter. Yes, Gio was raw and not exactly an ideal size for a starting pitcher, but still he was very young, cheap and upside was clearly there. I remember even back in '07 wondering why Kenny kept completely dismissing the guy given how much the 5th starter position was such a problem in 03, 04, 06, 07, not to mention considering how much cheap young pitching with Strike-out ability is generally valued around the league.....

Hindsight 20/20, but at the time of the Swisher trade, Sweeney too was a fairly high ranked prospect who was consistenly younger than his competition, including stunning people as a 19 year old in ST against Bartolo Colon, Lackey and Co..... not to mention Faustino De Los Santos started a Futures Game, had the stuff drawing Poor Pedro raves the year earlier; I think him being a mere throw-in in a trade was another example of KW not making best use of resources, pretty much the exact opposite of the "selling high" concept. Unless you claim he somehow knew DLS would get hurt....

That's exactly the problem. Trading all 3 those guys for less than All-Star value, OK that I can semi-kinda live with. But then K-Dub turns around and only a year later sells low on Swish as well --- badly mis-scouting Jeff Marquez/Johnny Nunez, just totally SNOOKERED by Brian Cashman, who parlays the trade into World Series ring.

Daniel Hudson? Now I don't think you can just dismiss the 2 good years he have the D-Backs, but whatever dude I am willing to meet you half-way here --- because I happen to like Edwin Jackson. Now, it can be argued that Sox had all the leverage at the time of the trade and should NOT have given up Daniel Hudson but a couple of more raw minor-leaguers, but hey again, whatever, that's probably Kenny blinking during negotiations yet again. Whatever, KW tried to go for it in 2009 ---- I agree with you that with fickle Sox fanbase, any time you got a chance to make post-season in a weakened division you gotta jump at it....

However, you CANNOT simply overlook the fact that KW turned Edwin Jackson into....Zach Stewart. After being sold damaged goods with Felix Diaz, Jeff Marquez, Johnny Nunez who each threw about 5 mph slower than advertised once they donned the Sox uniform.....to make that same mistake on Stewart is unforgivable. All meanwhile, Cleveland Indians got Santana for Casey effin' Blake, for instance.

If that wasn't enough, Nestor Molina too seems to have misplaced 3-4 mph off the fastball and an actual major-league breaking-ball some time during his flight from Toronto. Another spectacular scouting coup by K-dub there. But hey, Sergio Santos has been hurt, so that let's Kenny off the hook for all the bizarre mistakes of last 4 years.

Simon Castro better be the real deal, otherwise running the 2-time All-Star Quentin out of town may backfire.

The Danks & Ramirez extensions... knowing their respective red flags....just.just.Ugh

Tolerating the incompetent, classless fraud like Guillen and his clown twitter kids, for at least 1-2 years past their expiration date... likewise doesn't inspire confidence in Kenny's executive judgement. Ditto Greg Walker who was clearly burned out and now admits he stuck around for too long.

For every Chris Sale, there is Joe Borchard-KrisHonel-RoyceRing-BrianAnderson-JoshFields-LanceBroadway-Kyle McLullough-AaronPoreda

I try to be fair. I will give KW props for low-pressure garbage bin finds like Quintana, Sergio Santos....but when it comes to the high-pressure big-trade decisions & scouting last few years, he does not come out in a favourable light, IMO.

doublem23
06-24-2012, 10:05 AM
Kenny-pologists.....the revisionist history & various straw-men......mind boggled.

It's too late I'll just keep it short

Gio Gonzalez didn't just kinda mysteriously figure it out this year. Only saved by the A's ballpark? Please watch some games sometimes, he was at times dominant even last year in 2011, making the All-Star team remember? Let me know when the great 15-million dollar a year man John Danks makes the All-Star team even once in his career....

Well I stopped reading here because there's already way too much meat on this bone, but let's just remember that A) Gio walked almost 100 batters every year he was in Oakland and just a glance at his home/road splits during his tenure with the A's should give some insight in why he was a successful pitcher there, because the Coliseum is a pitcher's paradise bordering on a joke. There is absolutely 0% chance Gio could have stayed with the Sox and pitched like he did in Oakland and found success at the much more hitter-friendly Cell. Anyone who believes otherwise has either A) absolutely no grasp of basic mathematics or B) deluding themselves into making the evidence fit a conclusion they have already reached.

And the All-Star Game. The All-Star Game? :rolling: You guys are always good for a laugh in the morning. Thanks. :rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

Hope the Sox win today and get back into 1st.

WLL1855
06-24-2012, 10:37 AM
... or B) deluding themselves into making the evidence fit a conclusion they have already reached...

What! I'm appalled you'd doubt the wisdom of our fine fanbase.

The ranting index seems to be rising pretty fast around here lately.

Hope the Sox win today and get back into 1st.

Amen.

Save McCuddy's
06-24-2012, 04:34 PM
Well I stopped reading here because there's already way too much meat on this bone, but let's just remember that A) Gio walked almost 100 batters every year he was in Oakland and just a glance at his home/road splits during his tenure with the A's should give some insight in why he was a successful pitcher there, because the Coliseum is a pitcher's paradise bordering on a joke. There is absolutely 0% chance Gio could have stayed with the Sox and pitched like he did in Oakland and found success at the much more hitter-friendly Cell. Anyone who believes otherwise has either A) absolutely no grasp of basic mathematics or B) deluding themselves into making the evidence fit a conclusion they have already reached.

Who is the mathematician that alludes to walk totals without acknowledging the nearly 200 K's that Gio racked up in both 2010 and 2011? In my baseball world, a 2 to 1 strikeout to walk ratio has the makings of a top half of the rotation starter. Especially when the K's per nine inning ratio is as elite as Gonzalez's was/is. Strikeouts negate ballpark factor. 200K starters are exactly the kind of pitchers you are looking for if your home park yields a disproportionate number of homeruns.

I don't feel the need to hammer Kenny for missing on the Swisher trade. He did. But, he also made out like a bandit when he got Gio back and Floyd for Sweaty Freddie. You can't win them all. I like the fact that he consistently takes his shots.

What I do feel the need to hammer away at is the pomposity of your misguided post and take on Gio Gonzalez. What evidence do you have that Gonzalez would have 0% chance of pitching here at the cell? Could it be his home/road splits in Oakland where opponents hit .246 in his road starts vs .220 at the Colesium in 2011? Maybe it was the 9 home runs he gave up in road starts vs the 8 he surrendered at Oakland that year? Our own John Danks saw opponents hit .249 against him on the road in 2010 and a mere .226 at the Cell where he dominated all season. In 2011, that reversed itself for Danks. Go figure, maybe home/road splits aren't an exact science.

Not sure how to say this and avoid hypocrisy, but your opinion that Gio Gonzalez was somehow worthless when we traded him in 2008 is completely false. It is not an opinion shared by anyone with baseball acumen and no amount of interactive icons punctuating your post will make it so. If your driving motivation is to rush to KW's aid, there have got to be better topics to tackle than pretending Gio Gonzalez was a long shot to succeed.

Adele_H
07-01-2012, 03:13 PM
Who is the mathematician that alludes to walk totals without acknowledging the nearly 200 K's that Gio racked up in both 2010 and 2011? In my baseball world, a 2 to 1 strikeout to walk ratio has the makings of a top half of the rotation starter. Especially when the K's per nine inning ratio is as elite as Gonzalez's was/is. Strikeouts negate ballpark factor. 200K starters are exactly the kind of pitchers you are looking for if your home park yields a disproportionate number of homeruns.

I don't feel the need to hammer Kenny for missing on the Swisher trade. He did. But, he also made out like a bandit when he got Gio back and Floyd for Sweaty Freddie. You can't win them all. I like the fact that he consistently takes his shots.

What I do feel the need to hammer away at is the pomposity of your misguided post and take on Gio Gonzalez. What evidence do you have that Gonzalez would have 0% chance of pitching here at the cell? Could it be his home/road splits in Oakland where opponents hit .246 in his road starts vs .220 at the Colesium in 2011? Maybe it was the 9 home runs he gave up in road starts vs the 8 he surrendered at Oakland that year? Our own John Danks saw opponents hit .249 against him on the road in 2010 and a mere .226 at the Cell where he dominated all season. In 2011, that reversed itself for Danks. Go figure, maybe home/road splits aren't an exact science.

Not sure how to say this and avoid hypocrisy, but your opinion that Gio Gonzalez was somehow worthless when we traded him in 2008 is completely false. It is not an opinion shared by anyone with baseball acumen and no amount of interactive icons punctuating your post will make it so. If your driving motivation is to rush to KW's aid, there have got to be better topics to tackle than pretending Gio Gonzalez was a long shot to succeed.

Oh no doubt. Kenny has been a borderline lousy GM since 2008.

I must say that Daniel Hudson surgery does vindicate K-Dub a little. I liked the Jackson trade even then, just couldn't believe it was turned into another Zach Stewart Jeff Marquez Felix Johnny Nunez Pacheco Billy Koch, Nestor Molina Arnie Munoz etc scouting failure.

With Hudson, Brandon MacCarthy, Faustino DLS, Sergio Santos maybe Sox believed long-term, they couldn't escape an injury; maybe Kenny *knew*.

So likewise, one could make an arguement with respect to Gio. His small size, stress on the arm, problem with harnessing velocity .... Selling high on McCarthy, Hudson, DLS, Santos. So far it han't worked with Gio.

Not to mention, other GM are not as stupid as they look, and may have in the meantime turned the tables on Kenny in that "selling high" deparment...