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View Full Version : *Official* 6-10 2005 was a long time ago, HOU 11 SOX 9 Postgamer


Frater Perdurabo
06-10-2012, 04:23 PM
Not good

LITTLE NELL
06-10-2012, 04:25 PM
At least we didn't quit but Humber and Floyd are killing us. Can we get one good arm in a trade for Floyd, Humber, Ohman and Stewart?

shingo10
06-10-2012, 04:27 PM
Awful homestand.

Good news is we'll still be in first starting the road trip.

Bad news is Humber, Floyd, Stewart, and Ohman are completely unreliable. That's too many unreliable parts on the pitching staff.

Danks comeback is gonna be huge for this team if he is truly healthy and all good to go.

Dick Allen
06-10-2012, 04:27 PM
This weekend told me all I needed to know about this team. Goodbye.

sox1970
06-10-2012, 04:28 PM
This weekend told me all I needed to know about this team. Goodbye.

Drops mic. Walks off.

slavko
06-10-2012, 04:28 PM
Embarrassing on many levels. Field, dugout, bullpen, upstairs.

Quentin08
06-10-2012, 04:29 PM
This weekend told me all I needed to know about this team. Goodbye.

Wow! Goodbye.. see you again when the Sox get back on a roll. :rolleyes:

shingo10
06-10-2012, 04:29 PM
This weekend told me all I needed to know about this team. Goodbye.


I don't think one weekend will ever tell anyone what a team is all about. Good or bad.

There was some funky stuff on this homestand with Konerko being out to a bunch of guys getting the flu.

Still a long way to go.

WhiteSox5187
06-10-2012, 04:29 PM
Losing two out of three to Houston at home is pretty inexcusable.

GoGoCrede
06-10-2012, 04:30 PM
Of course I missed the 9th when it got interesting. I was pretty hopeful there.

This weekend told me all I needed to know about this team. Goodbye.

Lol see ya.

soltrain21
06-10-2012, 04:30 PM
This weekend told me all I needed to know about this team. Goodbye.

Classic.

Lip Man 1
06-10-2012, 04:31 PM
Wow.

Just flat bad to an awful team that had lost 10 of their last 13 coming into Friday.

20 runs allowed to one of the worst clubs in baseball playing without their best player (Lee)

Lip

mahagga73
06-10-2012, 04:31 PM
Awful homestand.

Good news is we'll still be in first starting the road trip.

Bad news is Humber, Floyd, Stewart, and Ohman are completely unreliable. That's too many unreliable parts on the pitching staff.

Danks comeback is gonna be huge for this team if he is truly healthy and all good to go.
Does Stewart ever come in and give up less than 2 or 3 runs?This needs to be Floyds last year here,let someone else dissect his brain patterns and erratic performance.Humber is a marginal 5 that's all.That perfect game was a fluke by the worst pitcher to ever pitch a perfect game.Now people are looking at him different and expecting 3 starter performance,and he isn't it.

Soxman219
06-10-2012, 04:32 PM
Sad they can't consistently win at home anymore. Have to regroup now and start another winning road trip.

LITTLE NELL
06-10-2012, 04:32 PM
This weekend told me all I needed to know about this team. Goodbye.

We must have a lot of fans like you since we are 26th out of 30 in attendance.

mzh
06-10-2012, 04:33 PM
As bad as Floyd/Humber have been, the back end up the bullpen has been just as awful. Both today, Friday, and one of the Toronto games could have been easily winnable if the sad excuses for Major League pitchers named Ohman and Stewart had not **** the bed even further to put the game out of reach.

mahagga73
06-10-2012, 04:33 PM
Wow.

Just flat bad to an awful team that had lost 10 of their last 13 coming into Friday.

20 runs allowed to one of the worst clubs in baseball playing without their best player (Lee)

Lip
I knew this was a possibility when I saw Floyd and Humber set up for the series.Both are a complete failure and joke right now.

Quentin08
06-10-2012, 04:34 PM
We scored enough runs in this homestand, it was our pitching that gave us trouble. Thankfully we're heading out on the road again where we play our best baseball. And then we'll come home to face the Cubs which should hopefully give us more confidence. :gulp:

LITTLE NELL
06-10-2012, 04:36 PM
As bad as Floyd/Humber have been, the back end up the bullpen has been just as awful. Both today, Friday, and one of the Toronto games could have been easily winnable if the sad excuses for Major League pitchers named Ohman and Stewart had not **** the bed even further to put the game out of reach.

Should have won all 3 against Seattle, blew a lead in the Saturday game.

Lip Man 1
06-10-2012, 04:37 PM
Nell:

Well when they play they way they did this weekend and on this homestand can you blame them?

Face it, the last five years have impacted the fan base and they haven't returned yet because they aren't convinved this club is that good.

Until they are convinced... all the grousing, all the five dollar tickets in the world, all the listing of attendance, all the wistful thinking that 'if only it was 1957 again' isn't going to help. It's about winning...period.

Lip

BigHurt3515
06-10-2012, 04:37 PM
We scored enough runs in this homestand, it was our pitching that gave us trouble. Thankfully we're heading out on the road again where we play our best baseball. And then we'll come home to face the Cubs which should hopefully give us more confidence. :gulp:

I really hope they play well on the road. I cant take watching this for 3 games in a row. I might go nuts

LITTLE NELL
06-10-2012, 04:42 PM
Nell:

Well when they play they way they did this weekend and on this homestand can you blame them?

Face it, the last five years have impacted the fan base and they haven't returned yet because they aren't convinved this club is that good.

Until they are convinced... all the grousing, all the five dollar tickets in the world, all the listing of attendance, all the wistful thinking that 'if only it was 1957 again' isn't going to help. It's about winning...period.

Lip

The 5 buck pricing helped in the Toronto series, probably 5,000 more a game. So they drop it for this series and its back to a little over 20,000.
I know the team has let us down the last few years but we aren't the Pirates who haven't had a winning season in 20 years

Dan H
06-10-2012, 04:53 PM
The 5 buck pricing helped in the Toronto series, probably 5,000 more a game. So they drop it for this series and its back to a little over 20,000.
I know the team has let us down the last few years but we aren't the Pirates who haven't had a winning season in 20 years

I am more concerned about Humber and Floyd than attendance right now. Regardless, complaining about attendance won't solve the problem, and it is a deep seeded and deeply rooted problem. It would help if the White Sox treated the fans that do come out better.

BigKlu59
06-10-2012, 04:56 PM
Nell:

Well when they play they way they did this weekend and on this homestand can you blame them?

Face it, the last five years have impacted the fan base and they haven't returned yet because they aren't convinved this club is that good.

Until they are convinced... all the grousing, all the five dollar tickets in the world, all the listing of attendance, all the wistful thinking that 'if only it was 1957 again' isn't going to help. It's about winning...period.

Lip


Maybe they should have thrown in a Davy Crockett Coon skin pelt and a box of Cracker Jack. Alot of Howdy Doody pitching and Stooge's play in the field. Sucks when, as you say, give up 20 runs in your own playpen to a team thats been scufflin like the 'Stros. 2 out of 3 throwing BP aint gonna get it done.. These should be pencil em in games for the Sox, but they always end up doing the Wiley Coyote cliff dive with the anvil chapeau...

Long season... Gotta figure this rotation thing out.. Coop looks to be working some OT in the future with our assorted pea chuckers..


BK59

tstrike2000
06-10-2012, 04:58 PM
Kind of a recurring theme in some of our losses. We make a comeback, but our pitchers have put us in too much of a hole to get over the hump. Unfortunate that Nate Jones didn't have a better day. He was the one guy that could've held things in place. Humber and Zach Stewart just aren't very good. Hard to figure out Zach Stewart who's bad against righties but pretty good against lefties. The bigger issue that Robin has is what to do, if anything, with Humber. Everytime he's out there, it's an automatic 4 or 5 runs allowed.

LITTLE NELL
06-10-2012, 05:01 PM
Cleveland won, .5 game lead for us with a tough road trip.
Strange stat, there is not one team in the AL Central that has a winning home record, the Tribe is best at .500 at home.

Tragg
06-10-2012, 05:08 PM
Thoroughly outplayed by the Astros over the weekend.

Zac Stewart looking better and better - ace scouting and talent evaluation.
We have starting pitching problems, but the last thing this organization needs is more trading out of Kenny Williams.

Paulwny
06-10-2012, 05:12 PM
Cleveland won, .5 game lead for us with a tough road trip.
Strange stat, there is not one team in the AL Central that has a winning home record, the Tribe is best at .500 at home.


Right now all the AL Central teams look like .500 teams. They can lose to anyone at anytime.

Should have said, Sox, Tribe and Tigers.

Hartman
06-10-2012, 05:17 PM
There's no in-between with this team, either really good or awful.

RCWHITESOX
06-10-2012, 05:23 PM
Why all the negatively. I get the fact we need pitching and help at 3B; but even with all that the Sox are still in first. I have not seen one dominate team all year; so I see the Sox competeing all year. What more can you ask for? Go Sox!

TommyGavinFloyd
06-10-2012, 05:23 PM
We must have a lot of fans like you since we are 26th out of 30 in attendance.

We do. I heard the same thing from several people I know today.

guillensdisciple
06-10-2012, 05:34 PM
We do. I heard the same thing from several people I know today.


That's dumb. I've had many overreactions with the White Sox, but none of them dumb enough to say I'm done after 60 games in the season. Especially with a .5 lead in the division.

Ehh, I guess people have their own tolerance. They'll be back when we're 4 games up or will be back to gloat about their knowledge when we're 5 games back.

Thus is fanhood.

In terms of the game. I am just repeating myself, but we are weak when it comes to pitching. Time to figure out what to do with that backend. As a few have mentioned, putting Humber in the bullpen is probably the smartest choice at the moment. Put Quintana in the starting rotation and you're good to go.

I still distrust and dislike Gavin Floyd, but he's a solid 5 option. If Danks pitches like he can, we're back in business.

russ99
06-10-2012, 05:35 PM
Thoroughly outplayed by the Astros over the weekend.

Well, only Friday and today. Sale pitched a gem and the Sox destroyed the Astros yesterday.

Glad the Astros gave a good account of themselves. Altuve is a heck of a player. Got a bit hairy at the end but still glad to see my second-favorite team win their last game at the Cell as an National League team. (until the next commissioner moves them back)

As with their sweep of the Cubs at Wrigley this year, people shouldn't look past them as automatic wins due to assumptions or last year's record...

SCCWS
06-10-2012, 06:06 PM
As bad as Floyd/Humber have been, the back end up the bullpen has been just as awful. Both today, Friday, and one of the Toronto games could have been easily winnable if the sad excuses for Major League pitchers named Ohman and Stewart had not **** the bed even further to put the game out of reach.

Actually Jones was worst than Stewart or Ohman today.

Foulke You
06-10-2012, 06:30 PM
I still distrust and dislike Gavin Floyd, but he's a solid 5 option. If Danks pitches like he can, we're back in business.
I think Danks coming back strong will be the key to this season. An impact starter will be tough to come by at the deadline and we likely don't have the minor league pieces teams are looking for in a trade for one. Having Danks back will make our rotation 3 deep and allow Robin the chance to play around with the idea of putting Quintana in for Humber. As you said, Gavin would be ok as a #5 option.

SoxSpeed22
06-10-2012, 06:31 PM
Houston has a feisty team, but we have to do better than this. Maybe it is what it is and we have an inconsistent team.

Foulke You
06-10-2012, 06:36 PM
Houston has a feisty team, but we have to do better than this. Maybe it is what it is and we have an inconsistent team.
We have our flaws but this is a 162 game season. There will be times like this where the team hits a valley. Fortunately, Robin seems to be the type of manager to not let his team get too high with the highs or too low with the lows. We have some pitching decisions to sort out but other than that, the team still has a great chance to win the AL Central. 88 or 89 wins might be all we need. That being said, it is highly disappointing to drop a series at home to a crap NL Central team. I was hoping we would fatten up on this part of the schedule.

JB98
06-10-2012, 06:54 PM
I think Danks coming back strong will be the key to this season. An impact starter will be tough to come by at the deadline and we likely don't have the minor league pieces teams are looking for in a trade for one. Having Danks back will make our rotation 3 deep and allow Robin the chance to play around with the idea of putting Quintana in for Humber. As you said, Gavin would be ok as a #5 option.

I think you are exactly right. Our season hinges on Danks coming back healthy and effective. If he does, we are solid 1 through 3. It won't matter as much that Floyd is nothing more than an inconsistent, back-of-the-rotation starter if you've got a solid top three.

It seems like the meltdown today is more about who the Sox lost to than anything else. I'm by no means an optimist when it comes to this club, but I'm going to attempt to talk some people off the ledge now.

Anyone who is upset that the Sox lost two of three to Houston needs to get over it. The worst this team has looked all season was May 12-13 when they lost by a combined 14-1 score in back-to-back games against the lowly Royals. On May 13, many of us were making the same comments I'm reading in this thread. "Can't afford to lose two of three at home to crap teams like this, blah, blah, blah, blah." About a week later the Sox went on a 14-out-of-16 tear.

Here's the thing about baseball: When you're hot, you're hot. When you're not, you're not. Sounds simple, I know. But when the Sox were going good, it didn't matter if they were playing a last-place team (Cubs, Minnesota), a below average team (Seattle), their closest pursuer in the division (Cleveland) or the best team in the American League (Tampa Bay). The Sox beat every one of those teams, and swept three of the five, in fact.

When you're going good, you beat everybody who has the misfortune of stepping into your path. When you're struggling -- and make no mistake the Sox struggled this week -- it's hard to beat even weak clubs like Houston. We're probably entering into a period here where the Sox need to grind a little harder to get their wins. It won't come as easy as it did a week or 10 days ago. That's just how baseball is. It's a long year with plenty of highs and lows.

kittle42
06-10-2012, 08:17 PM
We have an automatic loss with Humber almost every start right now. With Floyd being Floyd, that is tough to overcome.

Zach Stewart gives up runs in almost every appearance. I understand we all need a 25th man and a garbage time reliever, but seriously, he is garbage.

He makes Ohman look like Reed.

TheFrisbee
06-10-2012, 09:05 PM
A lot of playoff teams have the long reliever that comes in to put out the fires and goes for long innings, when a starter is knocked out early or there is an extra innings game, keeping the team in games. What luxury that is. The Sox sorely need that type of pitcher. In 2005 it was Vizcaino and in 2008 it was Carrasco.

Stewart seemingly is not that guy. Perhaps Axelrod could fill in that role once Danks is off the DL with Stewart being demoted. :shrug:

Tragg
06-10-2012, 09:19 PM
Is Stewart out of options or something? No reason to keep him up. Humber can go to long relief, Quintana can take the 5th spot. And, as per above, pray that Danks pitches like he's capable.

JB98
06-10-2012, 09:23 PM
Is Stewart out of options or something? No reason to keep him up. Humber can go to long relief, Quintana can take the 5th spot. And, as per above, pray that Danks pitches like he's capable.

Stewart has options and can be sent down. Certainly, the Humber to the bullpen and Stewart to AAA possibility has to be on the table if Quintana continues to pitch better than Humber.

Frater Perdurabo
06-10-2012, 09:57 PM
Hindsight is 20-20, of course, but can anyone imagine how much better off we would be if we had kept Buehrle and dealt Danks or Floyd?

Anyway, upon Danks' return, I'd keep Quintana in the rotation, move Humber to long relief, and send Stewart to Charlotte. If another injury occurs, or another spot starter is otherwise needed, go with Axelrod.

BigHurt3515
06-10-2012, 10:18 PM
Hindsight is 20-20, of course, but can anyone imagine how much better off we would be if we had kept Buehrle and dealt Danks or Floyd?

Anyway, upon Danks' return, I'd keep Quintana in the rotation, move Humber to long relief, and send Stewart to Charlotte. If another injury occurs, or another spot starter is otherwise needed, go with Axelrod.

Hopefully Quintana pitches well on tuesday and takes Humber's spot for good

doublem23
06-10-2012, 10:20 PM
Stewart has options and can be sent down. Certainly, the Humber to the bullpen and Stewart to AAA possibility has to be on the table if Quintana continues to pitch better than Humber.

I've been against that move for a while now because I like the idea of having a capable starter ready in waiting since we have a few guys in the rotation that I'm not 100% sure will make it to September, but every day I get more and more ready to say **** it, and make this move. Maybe a trip to the 'pen, even if it's just for the added rest, will do Humber some good.

WhiteSox5187
06-10-2012, 10:31 PM
I've been against that move for a while now because I like the idea of having a capable starter ready in waiting since we have a few guys in the rotation that I'm not 100% sure will make it to September, but every day I get more and more ready to say **** it, and make this move. Maybe a trip to the 'pen, even if it's just for the added rest, will do Humber some good.

I don't see how it could hurt, even if it's as simple as having Humber miss a few starts once Danks gets back. Danks is really going to be the key to determining how far the Sox go (barring injuries of course). If he can come back and pitch like he did in 2010 then the White Sox can live with the inconsistency of Floyd and some combination of Quintana or Humber, but if Danks continues to pitch like he did prior to going on the DL then the White Sox are in trouble.

WhiteSox5187
06-10-2012, 10:33 PM
Hindsight is 20-20, of course, but can anyone imagine how much better off we would be if we had kept Buehrle and dealt Danks or Floyd?



If the deal was we had to trade Danks AND Floyd then I would say no but if there was a way we could have kept Buehrle and traded only Floyd then I would have done that deal every day of the week. At this point in their careers Buehrle is still a consistent number three starter while Floyd is an inconsistent number four maybe even number five starter.

mzh
06-10-2012, 10:39 PM
I've been against that move for a while now because I like the idea of having a capable starter ready in waiting since we have a few guys in the rotation that I'm not 100% sure will make it to September, but every day I get more and more ready to say **** it, and make this move. Maybe a trip to the 'pen, even if it's just for the added rest, will do Humber some good.
I agree. Ranger was in full defense mode today, advocating that we just sit on our hands and wait for things to iron themselves out, but I don't see what harm can be done by at least skipping him a start and letting him figure it out. The time to make adjustments is not on the mounds in a game, when your job is to get outs in any way possible. I certainly don't see what good it's doing him throwing him out there and hoping something changes.

DrCrawdad
06-11-2012, 12:19 AM
Losing 2 of 3 to the Astros at home...well that's embarrassing.

:redface:

hawkjt
06-11-2012, 12:49 AM
I agree. Ranger was in full defense mode today, advocating that we just sit on our hands and wait for things to iron themselves out, but I don't see what harm can be done by at least skipping him a start and letting him figure it out. The time to make adjustments is not on the mounds in a game, when your job is to get outs in any way possible. I certainly don't see what good it's doing him throwing him out there and hoping something changes.


I do know what people expect Robin to do...until Danks gets back.
Drop Humber to the bullpen now,and who is the 5th starter? Stewart?
That is nuts.

All Robin can do is hold on until Danks is back,hopefully next week,and then make a decision on Humber vs Quintana as the 5th starter.

That means that Humber will start vs the Dodgers,and Quintana will probably start vs the Card and Dodgers. After that,lets hope that Danks will be ready for his next turn,and the decision on Humber and Quintana will be made then.

Sox lost 4 of 6 game...ohmigod...panic in the streets. Rangers have lost 7 of 10 going into today...fire sale time in Texas?

Now, that said, the Cards are going to be a tough series. They lead the NL is every offensive stat. Sox have to hope that Quintana,Peavy and Floyd can hold them down. Long season gang....relax.

kufram
06-11-2012, 04:25 AM
People seemed happy to be rid of Danks not so long ago. Now the entire season rests on his shoulders. Buehrle's gone.... and isn't coming back. The season was not lost this week-end. The home stand went much like other home stands have gone this year.

I recall the calls for Contreras to offed the first half of a notable season. Nothing is decided over a few games or even over a few starts. No doubt, the starters not named Peavy or Sale need to be better, but there were a lot of calls to rid ourselves of Peavy until the start of this season. Things can change for the better.

The lineup of too many automatic outs is still scoring runs. Hitters that needed to be sent down to "figure it out" or traded because they were worse than terrible last year are actually doing ok or better.

I don't care who we beat or who beats us. Of course, I wish we'd win at home.... for the home fans. But, ultimately, where we win won't make the difference in the standings. A season is decided by the number of wins and losses... not who you beat or who beat you.

October26
06-11-2012, 08:16 AM
People seemed happy to be rid of Danks not so long ago. Now the entire season rests on his shoulders. Buehrle's gone.... and isn't coming back. The season was not lost this week-end. The home stand went much like other home stands have gone this year.

I recall the calls for Contreras to offed the first half of a notable season. Nothing is decided over a few games or even over a few starts. No doubt, the starters not named Peavy or Sale need to be better, but there were a lot of calls to rid ourselves of Peavy until the start of this season. Things can change for the better.

The lineup of too many automatic outs is still scoring runs. Hitters that needed to be sent down to "figure it out" or traded because they were worse than terrible last year are actually doing ok or better.

I don't care who we beat or I who beats us. Of course, I wish we'd win at home.... for the home fans. But, ultimately, where we win won't make the difference in the standings. A season is decided by the number of wins and losses... not who you beat or who beat you.

You make some good points in your post above, kufram.

The mention of Jose Contreras' name above reminded me of how happy I was to see Jose -on TV- back in Chicago on Friday to present Alexei with his 2004 Gold Medal replacement. I thought for sure that seeing Jose would inspire the two current Cuban players on the Sox roster, Alexei and Dayan, to play well this past series. I was wrong.

As you know, I am a huge fan of both Alexei and Dayan and enjoy celebrating their accomplishments in a White Sox uniform. Yesterday's game was hard for me to watch. Alexei being in the middle of that double steal by the Astros and not recognizing what was happening was disheartening. Dayan swinging on a 3-0 count later in the game was equally disappointing. Both Alexei and Dayan played on Cuban Baseball Teams where fundamentals are emphasized day in and day out. Alexei, in particular, has been so inconsistent. I realize that Sox pitching was to blame as well for yesterday's loss. I spoke with my dad after the game and we shared our feelings of disappointment. My father reminded me that these players are human and will make mistakes. So, we'll chalk this one up in the "bad" column and move on.

Hitmen77
06-11-2012, 08:55 AM
We have an automatic loss with Humber almost every start right now. With Floyd being Floyd, that is tough to overcome.

Zach Stewart gives up runs in almost every appearance. I understand we all need a 25th man and a garbage time reliever, but seriously, he is garbage.

He makes Ohman look like Reed.

I'd like to know why Stewart is still on the team. Is there nobody in the minors who could replace him in the pen? You're right, he gives up a run almost every appearance. Instead of containing the damage to give our offense a chance, he just puts the game out of reach.

Yeah, I know Humber and Floyd haven't been great lately. But spots in the rotation aren't easily replaced (especially with Danks out). If Stewart isn't replaceable, that's a pretty sad statement about the status of the Sox farm system.

kufram
06-11-2012, 08:59 AM
You make some good points in your post above, kufram.

The mention of Jose Contreras' name above reminded me of how happy I was to see Jose -on TV- back in Chicago on Friday to present Alexei with his 2004 Gold Medal replacement. I thought for sure that seeing Jose would inspire the two current Cuban players on the Sox roster, Alexei and Dayan, to play well this past series. I was wrong.

As you know, I am a huge fan of both Alexei and Dayan and enjoy celebrating their accomplishments in a White Sox uniform. Yesterday's game was hard for me to watch. Alexei being in the middle of that double steal by the Astros and not recognizing what was happening was disheartening. Dayan swinging on a 3-0 count later in the game was equally disappointing. Both Alexei and Dayan played on Cuban Baseball Teams where fundamentals are emphasized day in and day out. Alexei, in particular, has been so inconsistent. I realize that Sox pitching was to blame as well for yesterday's loss. I spoke with my dad after the game and we shared our feelings of disappointment. My father reminded me that these players are human and will make mistakes. So, we'll chalk this one up in the "bad" column and move on.


I think one also needs to remember that baseball is a long run with players and teams going through streaks. The talk of PK hitting .400 comes to mind. Paulie had an almost unbelievable start... but he knew it wasn't going to be like that all year. He's come down to earth slightly but he'll go on a hot streak again. I have no doubt that your two guys will win games for us probably sooner than later.

There does seem to be something wrong when the Sox play at home. I won't pretend to know what it is or why it is but it is a shame.

We live in an impatient world. We also live in a world where everything that goes wrong has to be somebody's fault. I don't see it as anybody's "fault" that we lost yesterday.... we just lost.

I think that when you're still in first place and there are bigger problems in the world to worry about, baseball should have a little more fun in it and you have to take bad losses in your stride.

asindc
06-11-2012, 09:23 AM
I think one also needs to remember that baseball is a long run with players and teams going through streaks. The talk of PK hitting .400 comes to mind. Paulie had an almost unbelievable start... but he knew it wasn't going to be like that all year. He's come down to earth slightly but he'll go on a hot streak again. I have no doubt that your two guys will win games for us probably sooner than later.

There does seem to be something wrong when the Sox play at home. I won't pretend to know what it is or why it is but it is a shame.

We live in an impatient world. We also live in a world where everything that goes wrong has to be somebody's fault. I don't see it as anybody's "fault" that we lost yesterday.... we just lost.

I think that when you're still in first place and there are bigger problems in the world to worry about, baseball should have a little more fun in it and you have to take bad losses in your stride.

Wise words. I like your sense of perspective.:teach:

FielderJones
06-11-2012, 10:38 AM
Zach Stewart gives up runs in almost every appearance. I understand we all need a 25th man and a garbage time reliever, but seriously, he is garbage.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=stewaza01&t=p&year=2012

He's actually had 8 games without being scored on and 8 games giving up runs, but seems to be going downhill. 6 of his last 10 and 5 of his last 7 appearances gave up runs. On the plus side, only 1 of 6 runners he's inherited have scored.

I have no problem with Zach being sent to Charlotte to work things out for a while.

Lip Man 1
06-11-2012, 10:57 AM
According to Phil Rogers Sunday was the 7th time in the last 11 starts by Humber and Floyd the opponent has scored at least seven runs.

Lip

guillensdisciple
06-11-2012, 12:01 PM
According to Phil Rogers Sunday was the 7th time in the last 11 starts by Humber and Floyd the opponent has scored at least seven runs.

Lip

Scary stat. Floyd is supposed to be our third starts which makes this stat even scarier. Funny, for the last couple of years all of us had gone through horrible hitting. Now, we can't get pitching right. Something about this franchise and not getting it together at once.

guillensdisciple
06-11-2012, 12:12 PM
I know this will be unpopular, but if the sox don't make the playoffs they have a chance to truly rebuild. Lucky enough for us, our entire roster has decided to perform at peak levels. You can trade Dunn, Rios, and Konerko ( love him but come on maximize value) for some really good pitching and hitting prospects. Build around guys like De Aza and Viciedo and go from there. Viciedo is still developing, but of you go youth like you said you would this would be the best year to do it. Specifically Rios. I don't trust him to string it for consecutive years. If I was the sox I would trade him away for some young talent at the end of the year. If going full rebuild- trade all three. I wish AJ had this year last year. Would be a great trade piece too.

PalehosePlanet
06-11-2012, 12:14 PM
According to Phil Rogers Sunday was the 7th time in the last 11 starts by Humber and Floyd the opponent has scored at least seven runs.

Lip

This is also misleading because it includes the runs the bullpen has given up. Gavin gave up 4 in 6 innings, is it on him the pen gave up 4 more in 3 innings? Humber left yesterday's game w/the score 5-3, one out and a man on first in the 6th. Jones comes in allows his run to score and tacks on 3 more before he could get 2 outs. Is that on Humber?

They've pitched badly, but to blame the pen runs on them is a pretty worthless stat.

PalehosePlanet
06-11-2012, 12:27 PM
I do know what people expect Robin to do...until Danks gets back.
Drop Humber to the bullpen now,and who is the 5th starter? Stewart?
That is nuts.

All Robin can do is hold on until Danks is back,hopefully next week,and then make a decision on Humber vs Quintana as the 5th starter.

That means that Humber will start vs the Dodgers,and Quintana will probably start vs the Card and Dodgers. After that,lets hope that Danks will be ready for his next turn,and the decision on Humber and Quintana will be made then.

Sox lost 4 of 6 game...ohmigod...panic in the streets. Rangers have lost 7 of 10 going into today...fire sale time in Texas?

Now, that said, the Cards are going to be a tough series. They lead the NL is every offensive stat. Sox have to hope that Quintana,Peavy and Floyd can hold them down. Long season gang....relax.

Good post; exactly right. After a hot streak a team will always go through a cold spell. Not the end of the world, just typical baseball.

I also wonder what the fans will be saying about Quintana after he has two bad starts in a row -- and it will happen; happens to everyone. My guess is : He sucks, send him down, cut him, etc...

FielderJones
06-11-2012, 12:27 PM
I know this will be unpopular, but if the sox don't make the playoffs they have a chance to truly rebuild.

The Sox don't have that luxury. If they can barely draw 25k with a first place team, what kind of income do you think they're going to get playing .333 ball like the Cubs?

guillensdisciple
06-11-2012, 12:35 PM
The Sox don't have that luxury. If they can barely draw 25k with a first place team, what kind of income do you think they're going to get playing .333 ball like the Cubs?

The Tampa bay rays have been dealing with that for years. But that's how you become a powerful franchise. Otherwise we can just be mediocre and draw mediocre amounts of fans. That's much better.

FielderJones
06-11-2012, 12:38 PM
The Tampa bay rays have been dealing with that for years. But that's how you become a powerful franchise. Otherwise we can just be mediocre and draw mediocre amounts of fans. That's much better.

Tampa has a powerful team drawing poorly. For every Tampa there are two Pittsburghs and Kansas Citys who are always rebuilding and are always poor. No thanks.

guillensdisciple
06-11-2012, 12:41 PM
Tampa has a powerful team drawing poorly. For every Tampa there are two Pittsburghs and Kansas Citys who are always rebuilding and are always poor. No thanks.

Mediocre teams don't win championships. Either the sox open up their wallets or become elite via prospect and youth development.

Or they can pull a 2005- which is a rarity.

doublem23
06-11-2012, 12:45 PM
Mediocre teams don't win championships. Either the sox open up their wallets or become elite via prospect and youth development.

Or they can pull a 2005- which is a rarity.

First off, the Rays haven't won anything ever, and second, the Sox had a $127 million payroll last year and a $100 million payroll this year, so I'm not sure how anyone could accuse them of not opening their wallets.

The idea that cutting everything, going young and investing in a youth movement automatically leading to success is also laughable. Haven't the Royals been poised to overtake the Central division for a couple of seasons now? Good teams use their farm system to plug holes in their MLB roster and acquire other players via trade, they don't use them to build an entire team, that's Fantasyland nonsense.

LITTLE NELL
06-11-2012, 02:21 PM
First off, the Rays haven't won anything ever, and second, the Sox had a $127 million payroll last year and a $100 million payroll this year, so I'm not sure how anyone could accuse them of not opening their wallets.

The idea that cutting everything, going young and investing in a youth movement automatically leading to success is also laughable. Haven't the Royals been poised to overtake the Central division for a couple of seasons now? Good teams use their farm system to plug holes in their MLB roster and acquire other players via trade, they don't use them to build an entire team, that's Fantasyland nonsense.

The thing I wonder is if JR and KW are kicking themselves in the rear end for not trying to work something out with Buerhle. If you have a 100 million dollar payroll you are not in rebuilding mode, the Sox at the beginning of the year were probably more in a tweaking mode. I think Mark would have stayed at something like 11 or 12 million a year so whats the difference between 100 and 112 million a year. They miscalulated on the pitching staff thinking they had 5 solid starters, I for one thought that Humber was a big question mark after he came back down to earth in the 2nd half of last year and Floyd gets worse every year.

guillensdisciple
06-11-2012, 02:25 PM
First off, the Rays haven't won anything ever, and second, the Sox had a $127 million payroll last year and a $100 million payroll this year, so I'm not sure how anyone could accuse them of not opening their wallets.

The idea that cutting everything, going young and investing in a youth movement automatically leading to success is also laughable. Haven't the Royals been poised to overtake the Central division for a couple of seasons now? Good teams use their farm system to plug holes in their MLB roster and acquire other players via trade, they don't use them to build an entire team, that's Fantasyland nonsense.


Right.... But then again, the Nationals, Braves, Phillies did that too and succeeded. Ye most of the time, you need a young core and add from there. We have an old core and are adding from there. The problem here is the White Sox are hanging on to old pieces. When they leave, everyone will say how we should have thought of this beforehand

doublem23
06-11-2012, 02:31 PM
The thing I wonder is if JR and KW are kicking themselves in the rear end for not trying to work something out with Buerhle. If you have a 100 million dollar payroll you are not in rebuilding mode, the Sox at the beginning of the year were probably more in a tweaking mode. I think Mark would have stayed at something like 11 or 12 million a year so whats the difference between 100 and 112 million a year. They miscalulated on the pitching staff thinking they had 5 solid starters, I for one thought that Humber was a big question mark after he came back down to earth in the 2nd half of last year and Floyd gets worse every year.

I'm sure they're not because the Marlins gave Mark Buehrle and idiotic amount of money

doublem23
06-11-2012, 02:33 PM
Right.... But then again, the Nationals, Braves, Phillies did that too and succeeded. Ye most of the time, you need a young core and add from there. We have an old core and are adding from there. The problem here is the White Sox are hanging on to old pieces. When they leave, everyone will say how we should have thought of this beforehand

Ugh, are people going to bring this up everytime the Sox lose 1-2 games? If you want to root for a team that's building from the ground up, the Royals are in desperate need of people to watch another one of their usual 90-loss teams on a regular basis.

guillensdisciple
06-11-2012, 02:37 PM
Ugh, are people going to bring this up everytime the Sox lose 1-2 games? If you want to root for a team that's building from the ground up, the Royals are in desperate need of people to watch another one of their usual 90-loss teams on a regular basis.

What's with the extreme? I'm not even panicking. That was an idea that I had. That's why I said it would be unpopular. I don't care if they don't or they do, I just think it would be a good idea. Whether it is or isn't doesn't matter because the big boys upstairs make those decisions.

LITTLE NELL
06-11-2012, 02:37 PM
I'm sure they're not because the Marlins gave Mark Buehrle and idiotic amount of money

I think MB would have given us a home town discount and stayed for the 11 or 12 million I had mentioned. Whatever the case would it not be great if he was still here , I would sure as hell feel better.

jdm2662
06-11-2012, 02:40 PM
I think MB would have given us a home town discount and stayed for the 11 or 12 million I had mentioned. Whatever the case would it not be great if he was still here , I would sure as hell feel better.

The Sox were not giving him four years, and he got quite a bit more a year than what you are suggesting. Free agents go where the money is. Never believe anything else you might hear. Would he had liked to stay here? Sure. But, it was his last chance at a big pay day. He wasn't turning it down, nor do I blame him.

doublem23
06-11-2012, 02:42 PM
I think MB would have given us a home town discount and stayed for the 11 or 12 million I had mentioned. Whatever the case would it not be great if he was still here , I would sure as hell feel better.

The Sox offered Buehrle a deal, Miami countered with their insane deal, Buehrle came back to the Sox and they told him they wouldn't match it. So he's off sleeping on bags of money in Miami. So there's no point in worrying about what the Sox could be doing with Buehrle, the guy only wanted his payday and he got it, good for him. The Sox felt comfortable enough going into the season with Floyd and Humber and considering they have probably the best pitching coaching staff in baseball, that's enough for me.

russ99
06-11-2012, 03:03 PM
The Sox offered Buehrle a deal, Miami countered with their insane deal, Buehrle came back to the Sox and they told him they wouldn't match it. So he's off sleeping on bags of money in Miami. So there's no point in worrying about what the Sox could be doing with Buehrle, the guy only wanted his payday and he got it, good for him. The Sox felt comfortable enough going into the season with Floyd and Humber and considering they have probably the best pitching coaching staff in baseball, that's enough for me.

There's more to it that just that. Mark wanted a jump to the NL. With the pitcher batting, pitcher's numbers are generally better. There's also a potential for less overuse in the NL with the amount of pinch-hitting and the extra bullpen arm most NL teams carry.

Also, whatever offers the Sox got for Danks and/or Floyd at the time were underwhelming.

Would you overpay for an older pitcher who's starting to decline and take less than market value on Danks/Floyd just to keep Buehrle? Kenny wouldn't.

Also, Cooper's been riding on the 2005 postseason starters for how long now? That he couldn't get Jackson to turn the corner and this year's issues with Danks, Floyd and Humber are eroding that "best pitching coach" label a bit...

doublem23
06-11-2012, 03:10 PM
Also, Cooper's been riding on the 2005 postseason starters for how long now? That he couldn't get Jackson to turn the corner and this year's issues with Danks, Floyd and Humber are eroding that "best pitching coach" label a bit...

The Sox are in a long line of teams that couldn't get Jackson to perform like he is capable of, but if you'd actually look at the numbers and not just vomit the Joe Cowley/Ozzie Guillen talking points, you'd notice that Jackson's roughly 1 season in Chicago is arguably the 2nd best stop of any in his career, with the exception of his fluke year in Detroit.

It's pretty much widely reported and generally accepted that Cooper is one of, if not the, best pitching coaches in baseball. You're free to believe otherwise if you'd like, but you may as well try and argue that the Earth is flat and the Sun revolves around us.

russ99
06-11-2012, 03:42 PM
The Sox are in a long line of teams that couldn't get Jackson to perform like he is capable of, but if you'd actually look at the numbers and not just vomit the Joe Cowley/Ozzie Guillen talking points, you'd notice that Jackson's roughly 1 season in Chicago is arguably the 2nd best stop of any in his career, with the exception of his fluke year in Detroit.

It's pretty much widely reported and generally accepted that Cooper is one of, if not the, best pitching coaches in baseball. You're free to believe otherwise if you'd like, but you may as well try and argue that the Earth is flat and the Sun revolves around us.

1) Fair point on Jackson.

2) This has zero to do with Guillen and/or Cowley- we can't question Cooper or point out his failings at all without this coming up??

3) The idea that Coop can "fix everything" that some Sox fans have is ludicrous. He may be highly regarded in the industry, but he's not without his mistakes or a poor approach with some pitchers. Some guys respond to the "ornery uncle" approach and some don't. He, like any other coach, should be able to adapt to the people he has to work with.

FielderJones
06-11-2012, 03:47 PM
Some guys respond to the "ornery uncle" approach and some don't.

Just because he talks like an ornery uncle to stupid sportsblab radio personalities, don't assume he talks to his pitchers in the same manner.

WhiteSox5187
06-11-2012, 05:11 PM
First off, the Rays haven't won anything ever, and second, the Sox had a $127 million payroll last year and a $100 million payroll this year, so I'm not sure how anyone could accuse them of not opening their wallets.

The idea that cutting everything, going young and investing in a youth movement automatically leading to success is also laughable. Haven't the Royals been poised to overtake the Central division for a couple of seasons now? Good teams use their farm system to plug holes in their MLB roster and acquire other players via trade, they don't use them to build an entire team, that's Fantasyland nonsense.

First off the Rays won the pennant in 2008, the division in 2010 and the Wild Card last year. They have been vastly more successful than the White Sox since 2008.

Obviously cutting everything and going young does not automatically lead to success. When done right it does though. The Braves were the laughing stock of baseball in the 1980s but through strong drafts and development (coupled with some free agent spending later in the 1990s) they won how many straight division titles? The Indians were atrocious in the '80s too, but they rebuilt to become a very strong team in the 1990s. The Phillies were awful in the late '90s but rebuilt to become a powerhouse. There are lots of examples of rebuilding done right.

It certainly appears that the White Sox are in a position to contend now however they are an old team and eventually they are going to have to get young guys to replace guys like Konerko, AJ and Dunn. They might not have to completely rehaul and can plug guys in but given this team's inability to develop young players they do run the risk of getting old very quickly and being stuck with a bunch of over priced old guys. In fact, that's where a lot of people thought that they would be this year. For all the talk of the "constant rebuilding of the Pirates and the Royals," they never really firmly committed to rebuilding until 2007 when Neal Huntington and Dayton Moore took over as their GMs. Up until then the Pirates had the likes of veterans like Brian Giles, John Vander Wal and Derreck Bell starting for them in a vain attempt to get over .500; that's really the spot you want to avoid rather than totally rebuilding.

Hitmen77
06-12-2012, 08:52 AM
Tampa has a powerful team drawing poorly. For every Tampa there are two Pittsburghs and Kansas Citys who are always rebuilding and are always poor. No thanks.

First off, the Rays haven't won anything ever, and second, the Sox had a $127 million payroll last year and a $100 million payroll this year, so I'm not sure how anyone could accuse them of not opening their wallets.

The idea that cutting everything, going young and investing in a youth movement automatically leading to success is also laughable. Haven't the Royals been poised to overtake the Central division for a couple of seasons now? Good teams use their farm system to plug holes in their MLB roster and acquire other players via trade, they don't use them to build an entire team, that's Fantasyland nonsense.

First off the Rays won the pennant in 2008, the division in 2010 and the Wild Card last year. They have been vastly more successful than the White Sox since 2008.

Obviously cutting everything and going young does not automatically lead to success. When done right it does though. The Braves were the laughing stock of baseball in the 1980s but through strong drafts and development (coupled with some free agent spending later in the 1990s) they won how many straight division titles? The Indians were atrocious in the '80s too, but they rebuilt to become a very strong team in the 1990s. The Phillies were awful in the late '90s but rebuilt to become a powerhouse. There are lots of examples of rebuilding done right.


IMO, a big market team like the Sox do not need to gut the team and rebuild to become consistent contenders. I don't hear teams like the Angels or Cardinals talk about gutting/rebuilding ever. The Braves did it in the 80s? That was nearly a quarter of a century ago. The Indians were consistently lousy for decades before hitting success in the early 90s. So, that was more like "building" as opposed to "rebuilding" for them. In other words, they were already at rock bottom and didn't exactly gut a competitive team to rebuild.

Winning and spending money on veterans for the MLB team while also investing in scouting, player development, etc is not mutually exclusive. Other successful franchises can do both. The Sox have certainly opened up their wallets for the MLB payroll the last few years. But, the problem is that they don't appear to want to invest in their farm system. I don't know if that's a monetary issue ("hey, we just put all this money into the MLB payroll and have nothing left to spend") or is it a philosophical opposition to spend money on player development. I suspect it's more the latter with the current ownership.

This is what's hurting the Sox. Like Doub said, good teams use their farm system to fill holes and trade for veteran talent. It looks like the Sox farm system is so thin that they really can't do much of either. That doesn't mean they have zero internal talent (Sale, Reed), but I still think it's a problem.

What some fans are concerned about is that they see all this coming to a head in the next couple of years with the Sox. Lack of internal talent, aging veterans, and declining payroll/attendance points to a potential train wreck for this franchise in a couple of years despite the fact that they're in 1st place right now.

FielderJones
06-12-2012, 09:41 AM
What some fans are concerned about is that they see all this coming to a head in the next couple of years with the Sox. Lack of internal talent, aging veterans, and declining payroll/attendance points to a potential train wreck for this franchise in a couple of years despite the fact that they're in 1st place right now.

Declining payroll and declining attendance are two completely separate issues. I think attendance has declined because of:


last year's train wreck starring Dunn, Rios, and Peavy
unrealistic pricing of some seats
bad, uncertain economic outlook for some fans

The fact that other franchises are seeing a decline in attendance suggests that baseball has finally reached the tipping point of player salaries affecting affordable seat prices. Years ago, the cheapest seats were maybe an hour's wages for low-income workers. Now it's many times that. It's tough to get repeat customers to help fill a ballpark when people have to weigh a ticket price against basic necessities.


It would be interesting to see what ticket prices were during the Great Depression, relative to average hourly wage.

Golden Sox
06-12-2012, 10:34 AM
#2 is right on. Last weeks midweek reduced price on tickets games against Toronto outdrew the regular price weekend games against Houston. I don't know who's doing the marketing for the White Sox, but it doesn't take a genius to see that the ticket prices are way overpriced. I was at one of those games against Toronto last week and I noticed that those cheap seats ($5) were bought by young people. Isn't that the type of person you want to build your fan base with? Maybe other teams can overcharge their fans and getaway with it, obviusly the White Sox can't. Every premium game the last 2 years at the Cell has not sold out. The games against the Bad Guys on the Northside, Yankees, Red Sox and Dodgers has been overpriced. They are charging big money for the upcoming Brewers series and I'm expecting small crowds for that series because of the pricing of the tickets.

doublem23
06-12-2012, 11:14 AM
First off the Rays won the pennant in 2008, the division in 2010 and the Wild Card last year. They have been vastly more successful than the White Sox since 2008.

Obviously cutting everything and going young does not automatically lead to success. When done right it does though. The Braves were the laughing stock of baseball in the 1980s but through strong drafts and development (coupled with some free agent spending later in the 1990s) they won how many straight division titles? The Indians were atrocious in the '80s too, but they rebuilt to become a very strong team in the 1990s. The Phillies were awful in the late '90s but rebuilt to become a powerhouse. There are lots of examples of rebuilding done right.

It certainly appears that the White Sox are in a position to contend now however they are an old team and eventually they are going to have to get young guys to replace guys like Konerko, AJ and Dunn. They might not have to completely rehaul and can plug guys in but given this team's inability to develop young players they do run the risk of getting old very quickly and being stuck with a bunch of over priced old guys. In fact, that's where a lot of people thought that they would be this year. For all the talk of the "constant rebuilding of the Pirates and the Royals," they never really firmly committed to rebuilding until 2007 when Neal Huntington and Dayton Moore took over as their GMs. Up until then the Pirates had the likes of veterans like Brian Giles, John Vander Wal and Derreck Bell starting for them in a vain attempt to get over .500; that's really the spot you want to avoid rather than totally rebuilding.

Yay, the Rays won the Wild Card! What a dynasty!!!

If the best you can do is bring up teams from 25 years ago to prove your point, it should be obvious that your ideas are not working here in 2012. Didn't the Dodgers become a great team when they integrated their roster with Jackie Robinson? Clearly what the Sox need to do is convince the othe 29 teams in MLB to only feature white players and then dominate them with our roster of Latin American and African-American ballplayers. ****ing KW is too stupid to think of a genius plan like that, I bet.

Hitmen77
06-13-2012, 10:08 AM
Declining payroll and declining attendance are two completely separate issues. I think attendance has declined because of:


last year's train wreck starring Dunn, Rios, and Peavy
unrealistic pricing of some seats
bad, uncertain economic outlook for some fans

The fact that other franchises are seeing a decline in attendance suggests that baseball has finally reached the tipping point of player salaries affecting affordable seat prices. Years ago, the cheapest seats were maybe an hour's wages for low-income workers. Now it's many times that. It's tough to get repeat customers to help fill a ballpark when people have to weigh a ticket price against basic necessities.


It would be interesting to see what ticket prices were during the Great Depression, relative to average hourly wage.

I agree with what you're saying, but that's not the point I was trying to make.

It isn't that attendance declined because of payroll.....it's that low attendance numbers will probably mean a lower payroll for the Sox in the future. Combine that with the lack of talent waiting in the wings in the Sox farm system (either to succeed in our lineup or to trade for established talent) and I can see why some fans are worried about where this team is headed in the next few years. That doesn't mean I'm advocating a fire-sale/re-build.

Who knows....if the Sox can make the playoffs this year, that'll help ticket sales for next year and maybe all this won't come to a head in 2013 or 2014.