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View Full Version : Enough With the Reinsdorf Bashing


Brian26
07-24-2002, 11:22 PM
This is getting ridiculous.

Jerry Reinsdorf should take about 1% of the blame for what has happened this year. Just because the team is doing poorly, everyone, from this board to every talk radio show in the city, starts pulling out baggage from yesterday to 20 years ago about Reinsdorf. Someone called McNeil today and start bitching about Reinsdorf firing Harry Caray. Who Cares! What does that have to do with the 2002 White Sox record? Nothing.

It's not Reinsdorf's fault that Todd Ritchie throws batting practice fastballs and gets lit up like a Christmas Tree every 5th day. It's not Reinsdorf's fault that Royce Clayton has batted .200 for the past two years, except for garbage time. It's not Reinsdorf's fault that Carlos Lee has a 5-year old's mentality on the basepaths. Reinsdorf hasn't blown the save opportunities for Foulke. Reinsdorf's not the reason Ray has absolutely no range to his left at second base. It's not Reinsdorf's fault that Valentin is a career .250 hitter who happened to find some pop in his bat in 2000. It's not Reinsdorf's fault that half the bullpen can't hold a lead to save their life. It's not Reinsdorf's fault that Frank's hitting went into a black hole for two months.

Can anyone seriously blame Reinsdorf for any of this?

I think Jerry Manual is 10% to blame, and Kenny Williams is 10% to blame. The other 79% of the problem lies soley with the players. The players have not performed to their potential, and that's the bottom line.

My only fault with Manual is his lack of a consistent lineup. Yet, think about when that trend started: April of 2001. Why? Because Kenny Williams signed Royce Clayton for shortstop and forced Manual to move Jose to centerfield in spring training, a position he's never played before. That move started the ball rolling, and the Sox haven't recovered yet. That move displaced Jose, Singleton, Perry, Grafanino...basically wrecked havoc on half the lineup. This year Jose is still out of position, and it's hampered Crede's progress.

So again, here's my take: Reinsdorf 1% to blame, Manual 10%, Kenny 10%, the players 79%.

One more thing: Alex Fernandez and Wilson Alvarez, combined, have made 40 million dollars over the past 4 years, and they've pitched, combined about 3 games. Check out baseball-reference.com. Wilson alone has made 7 million dollars a year since 1999, and he's only pitched 1-game. I can't blame Reinsdorf one bit. Long-term contracts for pitchers are insane.

ScottG
07-24-2002, 11:56 PM
Reinsdorf absolutely has nearly everything to do with this ridiculous season!

Can we blame him for the performance of the players?
Not exactly.

But, this is the owner of the team. He hires all management and has the final call on all decisions. If Manual and KW are responsible for 20% of this team's lack of success, then Reinsdorf is equally responsible.

He hired these goofs (especially Kenny) to run a baseball team that was one of the winningest regular season franshises of the 90's. Now, two years of terrible management and he makes NO moves, and then has the balls to blame his non-action on the lack of fan support.

This team is terrible, and Reinsdorf should take 99% of the blame.


:reinsy
"How is any of this my fault? It's not like I own the team."

TornLabrum
07-25-2002, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
This is getting ridiculous.

Jerry Reinsdorf should take about 1% of the blame for what has happened this year. Just because the team is doing poorly, everyone, from this board to every talk radio show in the city, starts pulling out baggage from yesterday to 20 years ago about Reinsdorf. Someone called McNeil today and start bitching about Reinsdorf firing Harry Caray. Who Cares! What does that have to do with the 2002 White Sox record? Nothing.

Actually if you listen to what Reinsdorf has had to say, it does have something to do with it. The start of the "Wrigley Field as a shrine" mentality came when the Einhorn/Reinsdorf allowed Caray to go to the North Side. Caray sold the Cubs even better than he sold the Sox because he promised to tone down his criticism of the players on the field. And don't forget why Caray left. It was because he didn't want to be relegated to pay TV.

This was the start of the fall of the Sox in marketing their club via TV broadcasts. People started coming to Wrigley to see Harry, just as they had to Comiskey Park. The Sox were able to hold their own in attendance at first, but Cubs attendance soared. Then other factors caused the current dip in Sox attendance, the slack of which (casual fans) has been taken up by the Cubs. It all started with Harry leaving.

It's not Reinsdorf's fault that Todd Ritchie throws batting practice fastballs and gets lit up like a Christmas Tree every 5th day. It's not Reinsdorf's fault that Royce Clayton has batted .200 for the past two years, except for garbage time. It's not Reinsdorf's fault that Carlos Lee has a 5-year old's mentality on the basepaths. Reinsdorf hasn't blown the save opportunities for Foulke. Reinsdorf's not the reason Ray has absolutely no range to his left at second base. It's not Reinsdorf's fault that Valentin is a career .250 hitter who happened to find some pop in his bat in 2000. It's not Reinsdorf's fault that half the bullpen can't hold a lead to save their life. It's not Reinsdorf's fault that Frank's hitting went into a black hole for two months.

Who hired the GM's who hired the (a) the players themselves and (b) the managers and coaches who have supposedly been teaching these players as they rose through the Sox farm system and who should be stressing these fundamentals at the major league level? I believe his name is Reinsdorf.

Can anyone seriously blame Reinsdorf for any of this?

You bet you can blame him. He also keeps the GM and manager and coaches around by his inaction.

I think Jerry Manual is 10% to blame, and Kenny Williams is 10% to blame. The other 79% of the problem lies soley with the players. The players have not performed to their potential, and that's the bottom line.

And who hired the people who scouted these players and who were responsible for their development? Couldn't they tell seven or eight years ago that Ray Durham was a terrible base runner?

My only fault with Manual is his lack of a consistent lineup. Yet, think about when that trend started: April of 2001. Why? Because Kenny Williams signed Royce Clayton for shortstop and forced Manual to move Jose to centerfield in spring training, a position he's never played before. That move started the ball rolling, and the Sox haven't recovered yet. That move displaced Jose, Singleton, Perry, Grafanino...basically wrecked havoc on half the lineup. This year Jose is still out of position, and it's hampered Crede's progress.

What was that guy's name who hired the GM? Was it something like Reinsdorf?

So again, here's my take: Reinsdorf 1% to blame, Manual 10%, Kenny 10%, the players 79%.

It all depends on who you hold ultimately responsible for making the decisions. The buck stops with the person who has the ultimate responsibility. In baseball operations that person is Prof. Chaos. But the person who is responsible for hiring him spells his name Capital R-e-i-n-s-d-o-r-f.

One more thing: Alex Fernandez and Wilson Alvarez, combined, have made 40 million dollars over the past 4 years, and they've pitched, combined about 3 games. Check out baseball-reference.com. Wilson alone has made 7 million dollars a year since 1999, and he's only pitched 1-game. I can't blame Reinsdorf one bit. Long-term contracts for pitchers are insane.

He may be right, but on the other hand, the only way you get the really good veteran pitchers is to sign them to longterm contracts. So I guess that presents a little problem. The other teams get those pitchers. You know: the ones who are willing to take risks.

:sellreinsy

Brian26
07-25-2002, 12:11 AM
I still disagree.

Should Reinsdorf have final say over all BASEBALL decisions? Give me break. Do you want him down in the dugout like Steinbrenner? Should Reinsdorf put on the uniform and manage the team? No way. And if he did, the city would be up in arms!

Reinsdorf hires people to make decisions that he can't on his own. It's not Williams or Manual's fault that this team has no heart and isn't playing to it's potential. You can't blame Kenny Williams for Keith Foulke's implosion, can you? Can you blame Manual? Reinsdorf? The guy goes out there and gets lit up. How can you blame management for Foulke's blown saves? Or Frank popping up? Or Ritchie flat our sucking. Or Lofton's handstring injury? Or MJ not being able to hit? These players have all performed well before under this regime (except for Ritchie). The underachieving players are the ones to blame. Manual was a genius 2 years ago, and now he needs to be fired? I disagree. Fire the players.

TornLabrum
07-25-2002, 12:15 AM
Should Reinsdorf make the baseball decisions? No.

Should Reinsdorf fire people who prove incompetent and drive the team into the ground? You bet your sweet a$$.

:sellreinsy

ScottG
07-25-2002, 12:24 AM
http://members.aol.com/ogno1/Jordan/mjsox.gif
MJ- "Who said I can't hit?"


:MJ

MJ- "He meant me, future Hall of Famer Mark Johnson ."

Keystone Combo
07-25-2002, 12:49 AM
Is it possible that Ron Schueler could be pushing the buttons and that Kenny Williams is just a figure head in place...... or is it Reinsdorf pulling all the strings.

Reinsdorf shouldn't be silent with the fans outrage of how the team has played this season......... votes of confidence started with Reinsdorf giving Schueler a job for life or as long as he wanted one. No pressure there was there?

What about Schueler, do you think he is clear of all of this or is he in the middle of it?

captain54
07-25-2002, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
I still disagree.

It's not Williams or Manual's fault that this team has no heart and isn't playing to it's potential Fire the players.


Then why have a manager, or a general manager for that matter...?? If according to you, they should take the majority of the responsibilty , then just let Reinsdorf hire a bunch of players, throw them on the field and let them play....


Ritchie has never had a stellar record in the ML..yet we give up three pitchers for him....Practically every team passed on Kenny Lofton, except us....I wonder why??.....We started this season with an unbelievably shaky pitching staff except for Buerhle....Manuel makes statements like "defense isnt that important, this is the American League"....we need some help at third, and yet Robin Ventura is kicking ass in New York....

now you tell me who should have to answer for this mess....

hsc1
07-25-2002, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by Keystone Combo
Is it possible that Ron Schueler could be pushing the buttons and that Kenny Williams is just a figure head in place...... or is it Reinsdorf pulling all the strings.

Reinsdorf shouldn't be silent with the fans outrage of how the team has played this season......... votes of confidence started with Reinsdorf giving Schueler a job for life or as long as he wanted one. No pressure there was there?

What about Schueler, do you think he is clear of all of this or is he in the middle of it?

you know shu is in the middle of all this somewhere along the lines.. it was schu's call to get ritchie, afterall his eyes were on todd first.. i dont think kw can see that far on his own.....schu's call to gain jimenez, again his eyes on this kid since 2000....so of course he is still making key decisions in the background....kenny makes a great puppet, but im sure sooner or later his strings will be tired of being yanked.....

MisterB
07-25-2002, 02:58 AM
It's simple:

As Managing General Partner, Reinsdorf is ultimately responsible for what happens in the White Sox organization.

If 'dorf doesn't directly control an aspect of the team, it's up to him to find someone who can handle it. If that person can't handle it, it's up to 'dorf to replace them. If the team is underperforming, JM & the coaches need to fix it. If they can't, KW needs to replace them (either coach or player). If KW can't do that, them JR needs to replace KW. The fact is, JR has made a habit of hiring people with little or no track record to run the Sox. Look at the GM's: Williams, Schueler, Harrelson - never GM'd before the Sox; Managers: LaRussa, Lamont, Bevington, Manuel - no ML managing experience prior to the Sox. I think spending some cash on an experienced GM or Manager would go a long way on this team.

captain54
07-25-2002, 03:38 AM
Originally posted by MisterB
I think spending some cash on an experienced GM or Manager would go a long way on this team.

Reiney tried to get LaRussa back after he left Oakland but LaRussa took the Cardinals job instead....

He also tried to get Jim Leyland back twice....once after he let Torborg go and once after Bevington was fired....instead we got the poor man's Leyland in both cases...Gene LaMont and Manuel....

no matter how much cash, I don't think a knowledgeable GM or field manager would come here because Reiney needs his people to do what they're told and be prepared to fall on the sword when things blow up, like now.....

duke of dorwood
07-25-2002, 08:13 AM
To think that Reinsdorf and his directors in crime are not responsible for this is ridiculous. His hires are what put us here. His not holding on to the Dan Evans' and Dave Dombrowski's of the world are his doing. Thats where it starts. And thats where it ends.

Tragg
07-25-2002, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
This is getting ridiculous.

It's not Reinsdorf's fault that Todd Ritchie throws batting practice fastballs and gets lit up like a Christmas Tree every 5th day. It's not Reinsdorf's fault that Royce Clayton has batted .200 for the past two years, except for garbage time.

It IS the fault of JR and KW that Ritchie is on this team and 2 top prospects plus Lowe are NOT. They decided a veteran pitcher who had been nothing but average except for 1 year would be a number 1 starter here. They decided that Fogg and Wells would not be. that is THEIR fault.

How can you blame clayton? He is what he is. What in his resume suggests to you that he is anything BUT a bad, bad hitter? He's been bad for 12 years. Suddenly he's supposed to be a good hitter because Kenny Manuel brings him over here? Kenny absoultely deserves blame for bringing him and Alomar over here and killing this team with 2 huge holes in the lineup.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-25-2002, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by captain54


Reiney tried to get LaRussa back after he left Oakland but LaRussa took the Cardinals job instead....

He also tried to get Jim Leyland back twice....once after he let Torborg go and once after Bevington was fired....instead we got the poor man's Leyland in both cases...Gene LaMont and Manuel....

no matter how much cash, I don't think a knowledgeable GM or field manager would come here because Reiney needs his people to do what they're told and be prepared to fall on the sword when things blow up, like now.....

Yeah Captain, but none of this is Reinsdorf's fault.

*****!!!

Tragg
07-25-2002, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by hsc1


you know shu is in the middle of all this somewhere along the lines.. it was schu's call to get ritchie, afterall his eyes were on todd first.. i dont think kw can see that far on his own.....schu's call to gain jimenez, again his eyes on this kid since 2000....so of course he is still making key decisions in the background....kenny makes a great puppet, but im sure sooner or later his strings will be tired of being yanked.....

And Schu plucked EIGHT (i think) players from SF in White Flag and NONE have been top major leaguers for more than a season or two. Contrast this to the BoSox who plucked 2 for the crummy Healthcliffe Slocumb - those 2 were Veritek or Lowe. Not sure whether this is testament to his inability to judge talent (did he actually scout those Giant players or did he rely on hearsay); or his inability to negotiate a deal. Probably both.

RKMeibalane
07-25-2002, 11:08 AM
I think it's perfectly fair to blame Reinsdorf. After all, he cites us as the reason why he refuses to spend money to bring in better players.

:reinsy

"I never said it the fault of the fans. Sox fans are the greatest. Of course, I would appriciate it if you people would get off your asses and come to the park. Then MAYBE I'll spend money."

CubKilla
07-25-2002, 11:46 AM
Whether or not Reinsdorf is involved with a specific aspect of a team, he is still the Owner of the White Sox, and, as such, every decision, including those which he knows nothing about, ultimately goes through him at some point. Lenny over Evans..... Reinsdorf's decision. "Reassigning" Nardi instead of firing him..... Reinsdorf's decision. Sitting back and doing nothing back in MAY when the White Sox were showing signs of problems..... Reinsdorf's decision. I think it's perfectly acceptable to blame Reinsdorf for the sorry state of the White Sox right now and as a franchise since he took over ownership. Nobody has even mentioned the fact that it was Reinsdorf's decision to hold the taxpayers hostage by threatening to move the team unless WE built him a new stadium in the late '80's. REINSDORF IS TO BLAME FOR EVERYTHING BAD ABOUT THE WHITE SOX. KW and JM take the brunt of the blame because they are directly involved with who plays/sits/PH's/ etc. Reinsdorf's the one who put them there and refuses to do nothing as this team is run into the ground.