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chisoxt
07-24-2002, 10:01 PM
The White Sox as an organization have taken the approach in recent years to build their organization with pitchers. Not a bad stratedgy, but there are drawbacks to this as we are now seeing:

1. It seems as though the success rate of developing successful pitchers over position players is much lower

2. So that means, that if you are going to use any of your minor league pitchers in trades, you better have outstanding scouts and coaches that can objectively evaluate the talent that you do have. If you make the wrong move move and dump the good pitchers (Wells, Fogg, and Bradford) and keep the dogs (See current Sox staff) you set your organization back several years and look pretty stupid as well.

3. It does take some young pitchers longer to develop than position players and you have to go through a lot of growing pains. The problem is, by the time the pitcher comes into his own, it's usually time for him to be a free agent. Or more likely, the team and the player will get fed up with each other and the two will part company. Meanwhile, some other team will spot and correct a minor mechanical flaw and the pitcher will become productive on a consistent basis.

I think that the bottom line in all of this is that if your organization is going to make it a priority to develop young pitching, than you need to go out and get the best pitching coaches available, Not some cast-off llike Nardi who has a dubious resume as a pitchiing coach.

Daver
07-24-2002, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by chisoxt


I think that the bottom line in all of this is that if your organization is going to make it a priority to develop young pitching, than you need to go out and get the best pitching coaches available, Not some cast-off llike Nardi who has a dubious resume as a pitchiing coach.

The recently named director of minor league pitching,Kirk Champion,is one of the best in the business at developing young pitchers,the problem is the Sox have been rushing their young pitchers through the system and forcing to the big league level to soon.You can blame a lot of this on the rash of injuries last year,but a lot of it can also be blamed on not signing pitchers to decent contracts.

chisoxt
07-24-2002, 10:17 PM
the problem is the Sox have been rushing their young pitchers through the system and forcing to the big league level to soon.

Very true in some instances. The solution may be to invest in some B level free agent type pitchers so you can give guys like Wright and Rausch more time to develop.

JoseCanseco6969
07-24-2002, 10:29 PM
I totally agree with that statement. I don't think Danny Wright and Jon Rauch have been able to show us yet what they are capable of because they were simply thrown in there. I hate when i see Danny Wright bashing because seriously, hes been given no time to develop. Garland is a guy who has had his time and just this season has shown signs of coming around. I think he can be bashed for his poor performances. Wright has been categoried with Ritchie and it really pisses me off to see that because Ritchie is worthless and Wright will be a good player.

kermittheefrog
07-24-2002, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by chisoxt

1. It seems as though the success rate of developing successful pitchers over position players is much lower

So so true. Statheads have known this for a while. Statheads! w00t! Those damn pitchers though, they're unpredictable. Like teenagers!

Chisox_cali
07-24-2002, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by chisoxt


Rausch

R-A-U-C-H :)

It's like a combonation of Wunsch and Rauch.

LongDistanceFan
07-25-2002, 04:39 AM
Originally posted by daver


The recently named director of minor league pitching,Kirk Champion,is one of the best in the business at developing young pitchers,the problem is the Sox have been rushing their young pitchers through the system and forcing to the big league level to soon.You can blame a lot of this on the rash of injuries last year,but a lot of it can also be blamed on not signing pitchers to decent contracts.

some of the money that been paid for bonuses, it seems to me that management wants a return on their investment quicky. just b/c some pit were able to make the jump to the majors in a short time. not all pit will will be able to do that. think back, some pit were making the jump in the mid 20's. now it seems as if the pit isn't pit well and in the majors by let say 22-24, then they are a washout.

soxtalker
07-25-2002, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by JoseCanseco6969
...Garland is a guy who has had his time and just this season has shown signs of coming around. I think he can be bashed for his poor performances. ...

I think that Garland also needs to be given some time. He's very young and has been forced to learn in the major leagues what he should have been given time to learn in the minors. He's shown some signs of brilliance sprinkled among the mediocre performances. Unfortunately, when they learn through failure at the major league level, it is painful for us fans.

guillen4life13
07-25-2002, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


So so true. Statheads have known this for a while. Statheads! w00t! Those damn pitchers though, they're unpredictable. Like teenagers!

we aren't unpredictable at all! we just... do some weird things at weird times.

DrCrawdad
07-25-2002, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by chisoxt

2. So that means, that if you are going to use any of your minor league pitchers in trades, you better have outstanding scouts and coaches that can objectively evaluate the talent that you do have. If you make the wrong move move and dump the good pitchers (Wells, Fogg, and Bradford) and keep the dogs (See current Sox staff) you set your organization back several years and look pretty stupid as well.


http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_sortable_player_stats.jsp?section2=2&statSet2=1&statType=2&sortByStat=Last_Name&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=2002&baseballScope=mlb&isCompare=true&teamPosCode=all&box1=XXXX136268oakX&box2=XXXX150319pitX&box3=XXXX150337pitX&box4=XXXX216106chaX&checkBoxTotal=0&playerLocator=garland

I never really understood the Sox reluctance to give Bradford a chance. They held Chad down at AAA in 00 until the Sept call up and then in surprising move put Chad on the playoff roster. Then Chad goes from the playoff roster to Oakland for Olivo.

Many Sox fans were ambivalent on the Bradford/Olivo trade. Now we see that Chad is replicating his minor league success with Oakland's pen. Man, I wish we had Chad now. I sure hope that Olivo pans out.

- DrCrawdad.

Jerry_Manuel
07-25-2002, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
I never really understood the Sox reluctance to give Bradford a chance.

As Tommy John has pointed numerous times the Sox base their opinions on the gun. Chad isn't a hard thrower, so I guess in their minds he wasn't that good.

hold2dibber
07-25-2002, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad


http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_sortable_player_stats.jsp?section2=2&statSet2=1&statType=2&sortByStat=Last_Name&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=2002&baseballScope=mlb&isCompare=true&teamPosCode=all&box1=XXXX136268oakX&box2=XXXX150319pitX&box3=XXXX150337pitX&box4=XXXX216106chaX&checkBoxTotal=0&playerLocator=garland

I never really understood the Sox reluctance to give Bradford a chance. They held Chad down at AAA in 00 until the Sept call up and then in surprising move put Chad on the playoff roster. Then Chad goes from the playoff roster to Oakland for Olivo.

Many Sox fans were ambivalent on the Bradford/Olivo trade. Now we see that Chad is replicating his minor league success with Oakland's pen. Man, I wish we had Chad now. I sure hope that Olivo pans out.

- DrCrawdad.

Wow - that comparison you linked is fascinating. Among things that jumped out at me:

(1) Danny Wright, in 4 less IP, has given up only 9 more hits, but 4 less BBs than K. Wells. But, he's given up 27 more earned runs!!!! A big reason appears to be the 10 more HRs he has allowed. It makes me think that Kip has done a good (great?) job of getting out of jams (no more deer in the headlights) whereas Wright tends to give up gopher balls when in a jam. But it gives me hope that Wright can bring it up a notch and achieve the same kind of success Wells is now enjoying.

(2) Garland's BB/K ratio is horrifying (51/59). I don't think he's ever going to be a strike out pitcher -- he's a ground ball pitcher. But he's going to have to cut down his walks considerably if he's going to be an effective major league pitcher.

(3) Chad Bradford is really good.

(4) Our scouts and/or GM really screwed up. :gulp:

Jerry_Manuel
07-25-2002, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
But it gives me hope that Wright can bring it up a notch and achieve the same kind of success Wells is now enjoying.

(2) Garland's BB/K ratio is horrifying (51/59). I don't think he's ever going to be a strike out pitcher -- he's a ground ball pitcher. But he's going to have to cut down his walks considerably if he's going to be an effective major league pitcher.


Wells has had a few years in the major leagues, he's finally starting to trust his stuff. Wright is in his first full major league season. I think next year he'll show improvement and in two years he'll be good.

Garland like Wells was here before he should've been. As you said he'll never be a strike out pitcher. His control will come when he stops nibbling on the corners.