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Lip Man 1
05-28-2012, 05:15 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-soxs-williams-prepared-for-trade-resources-20120528,0,3869392.story

Lip

Noneck
05-28-2012, 05:47 PM
If the Sox are close to the division lead and attendance doesnt pick up, I dont expect them to spend money to pick up some pieces. But if they subtract in that situation and dont win it all, expect pigeons, spiders and flies to occupy the park next year.

Boondock Saint
05-28-2012, 05:52 PM
If Paulie, AJ or Peavy go, it had better be top-tier, major league ready prospects coming in. I'll understand if you need to cut salary, but no way in hell do you give up "sell high" production for a "buy low" price.

LITTLE NELL
05-28-2012, 05:54 PM
If Paulie, AJ or Peavy go, it had better be top-tier, major league ready prospects coming in. I'll understand if you need to cut salary, but no way in hell do you give up "sell high" production for a "buy low" price.

PK must stay with the Sox until he retires.

Boondock Saint
05-28-2012, 06:01 PM
PK must stay with the Sox until he retires.

Of course I'd prefer that, but you can never say never.

Paulwny
05-28-2012, 06:18 PM
PK must stay with the Sox until he retires.

It ultimately will be Konerko's choice, he's a 10-5 player and has to approve any trade.

LITTLE NELL
05-28-2012, 06:23 PM
It ultimately will be Konerko's choice, he's a 10-5 player and has to approve any trade.

And PK is such a class act that when he knows its time to hang them up, he will.

TomBradley72
05-28-2012, 06:26 PM
I just heard KW's interviiew on WSCR.

I wish KW would direct his comments to the White Sox marketing and operations teams to do what's necessary to get attendance up- effective marketing, ticket pricing, promotions, etc. would make a difference.

They are still running commercials developed during spring training- create advertising based on this season's accomplishments- Opening Day win, perfect game, sweeping Cubs & Indians, PK & Dunn's great starts, Peavy & Sale, etc- this team is starting to create a buzz- it's Brooks' responsibility to capitalize on it. Showing Robin contemplating his new role in an empty stadium during the offseason for the 100th time is not going to help.

Hell- offer all upper deck seats for the rest of the season at half price for a 72 hour "special" period this week in advance of the next homestand.

Do SOMETHING besides pointing the finger at the fans.

You just started to win consistently a little over a week ago- before the Cubs series- you split with LAA, split wth DET, lost of 2/3 to KC, split at CLE, etc.- nothing inspiring for the fanbase-

And before that- you sucked for three seasons (2009-2011)- just because you've been on a hot streak for 10 days- you're not going to turn it around with your fans overnight.

Paulwny
05-28-2012, 06:28 PM
JR will tell KW whether he will be a buyer or seller.
I fear another "White Flag" fiasco.

TDog
05-28-2012, 06:34 PM
JR will tell KW whether he will be a buyer or seller.
I fear another "White Flag" fiasco.

I think the fallout from that trade will effectively prevent something similar from happening in the future.

Also, many baseball people don't believe there will be an active deadline trade market this year because of the play-in wild card. That remains to be seen.

However, I would like to see baseball should do is move back the trade deadline to June 15.

WhiteSox5187
05-28-2012, 06:36 PM
JR will tell KW whether he will be a buyer or seller.
I fear another "White Flag" fiasco.

I am honestly far more concerned with the prospects of Kenny trading away what little young talent we have for the likes of another Edwin Jackson or Javier Vasquez.

Brian26
05-28-2012, 06:36 PM
JR will tell KW whether he will be a buyer or seller.
I fear another "White Flag" fiasco.

There is no 1997 "one-out-from-winning-the-World-Series" Cleveland Indians in the 2012 AL Central, unless it is the Sox.

Brian26
05-28-2012, 06:39 PM
I just heard KW's interviiew on WSCR.

I wish KW would direct his comments to the White Sox marketing and operations teams to do what's necessary to get attendance up- effective marketing, ticket pricing, promotions, etc. would make a difference.

They are still running commercials developed during spring training- create advertising based on this season's accomplishments- Opening Day win, perfect game, sweeping Cubs & Indians, PK & Dunn's great starts, Peavy & Sale, etc- this team is starting to create a buzz- it's Brooks' responsibility to capitalize on it. Showing Robin contemplating his new role in an empty stadium during the offseason for the 100th time is not going to help.

Hell- offer all upper deck seats for the rest of the season at half price for a 72 hour "special" period this week in advance of the next homestand.

Do SOMETHING besides pointing the finger at the fans.

I was at the Brookfield Zoo this morning. I saw about 50 Sox caps, 2 Cubs caps and a Cubs t-shirt.

Sox fans are out there right now, and there is a buzz. Ticket prices should probably be adjusted ASAP.

TaylorStSox
05-28-2012, 06:39 PM
I think the fallout from that trade will effectively prevent something similar from happening in the future.

Also, many baseball people don't believe there will be an active deadline trade market this year because of the play-in wild card. That remains to be seen.

However, I would like to see baseball should do is move back the trade deadline to June 15.

I really hope you're wrong and I pray the average fan has gotten smarter over the last 15 years. It was the right move then, and if we tank in the next month, will be the right move now. The Sox need to figure out a way to get more impact players in the system. If they can get legitimate high ceiling value for any of those big contracts, they need to pull the trigger, and that includes PK. If they continue this run until mid-July, my tune will change. As of right now, don't waste the future for fool's gold.

hawkjt
05-28-2012, 06:41 PM
I just heard KW's interviiew on WSCR.

I wish KW would direct his comments to the White Sox marketing and operations teams to do what's necessary to get attendance up- effective marketing, ticket pricing, promotions, etc. would make a difference.

They are still running commercials developed during spring training- create advertising based on this season's accomplishments- Opening Day win, perfect game, sweeping Cubs & Indians, PK & Dunn's great starts, Peavy & Sale, etc- this team is starting to create a buzz- it's Brooks' responsibility to capitalize on it. Showing Robin contemplating his new role in an empty stadium during the offseason for the 100th time is not going to help.

Hell- offer all upper deck seats for the rest of the season at half price for a 72 hour "special" period this week in advance of the next homestand.

Do SOMETHING besides pointing the finger at the fans.

You just started to win consistently a little over a week ago- before the Cubs series- you split with LAA, split wth DET, lost of 2/3 to KC, split at CLE, etc.- nothing inspiring for the fanbase-

And before that- you sucked for three seasons (2009-2011)- just because you've been on a hot streak for 10 days- you're not going to turn it around with your fans overnight.


I agree that it would be great to quickly capitalize on this hot streak by doing something special for the next 9 game home stand. Fill that upper deck with 6 dollar fans. Create a buzz with it a promotion,then raise them to 10 dollars the rest of the season...whatever. The team is fun to watch,just make it more affordable and families will come.
You bring a family with 3 kids,at 6 bucks a head, that is 30 dollars that turns into another 50 easy in concessions,and parking at maybe 15. You get 100 dollars where you have empty seats...and the team gets the electricity of playing in front of a big crowd.

I understand the issues that kenny faces, revenue wise, but the vast majority of Sox fans cashed out of this season long before it started...sad but true. Now, they need to be lured back.

Domeshot17
05-28-2012, 06:44 PM
It doesn't really matter much, we have zero prospects worth anything. The farm is so bad there is nothing left to trade. This Kenny crying about attendance game gets old. Stop pricing your fans out of the games and they will show up. If him and Brooks ever took 10 minutes to learn who their fanbase is and stop pretending its going to be who they want it to be, things would be better.

JB98
05-28-2012, 06:46 PM
They do such a poor job of marketing this team. They are so quick to throw up their hands and say, "The fans won't show up. It is what it is."

DickAllen72
05-28-2012, 06:49 PM
They do such a poor job of marketing this team. They are so quick to throw up their hands and say, "The fans won't show up. It is what it is."
That's the truth.

TaylorStSox
05-28-2012, 06:54 PM
I agree the pricing is a huge problem. I've never understood why they don't target the student population in the South Loop. That area is teeming with thousands of students, even during the summer. Offer $5 student tickets. It's a 15 minute trip on the red line for them. Will it draw a lot of revenue? Maybe not, but it's good marketing. It's a good way to help the fanbase grow with the younger generation. It might even make the Cell a "cool" place to be.

Golden Sox
05-28-2012, 06:56 PM
Alot of season ticket holders didn't renew this year. They're averaging about 2,500 fans less this year than last year. Last year was one of the most dreadful years in recent White Sox history. I can understand why some fans didn't renew this year. Looking back at the years Beckham, Dunn, Rios and Peavy had last year it was a miracle the team actually won 79 games. Nobody wants to talk about this now but considering the years those 4 players had, didn't Ozzie Guillen do one of his better jobs of managing the 2011 White Sox?

JB98
05-28-2012, 06:58 PM
Alot of season ticket holders didn't renew this year. They're averaging about 2,500 fans less this year than last year. Last year was one of the most dreadful years in recent White Sox history. I can understand why some fans didn't renew this year. Looking back at the years Beckham, Dunn, Rios and Peavy had last year it was a miracle the team actually won 79 games. Nobody wants to talk about this now but considering the years those 4 players had, didn't Ozzie Guillen do one of his better jobs of managing the 2011 White Sox?

No, he should have been fired in May. It was the worst job of managing I've seen from a White Sox skipper in my lifetime. Ozzie Guillen is the very definition of the word "quitter."

TaylorStSox
05-28-2012, 06:59 PM
Alot of season ticket holders didn't renew this year. They're averaging about 2,500 fans less this year than last year. Last year was one of the most dreadful years in recent White Sox history. I can understand why some fans didn't renew this year. Looking back at the years Beckham, Dunn, Rios and Peavy had last year it was a miracle the team actually won 79 games. Nobody wants to talk about this now but considering the years those 4 players had, didn't Ozzie Guillen do one of his better jobs of managing the 2011 White Sox?
Are you joking? The guy quit on the team. He was negotiating with the Marlins during the season. As far as baseball goes, he's dead to me. That may be harsh, but I loathe the guy now. He's Benedict Arnold.

SoxSpeed22
05-28-2012, 07:03 PM
I think both the marketing department and the fans are a bit gun-shy after last year. The whole all-in thing really blew up in their faces and created bad publicity.
This year, we were all resigned to this team not being that good, but now with the way they are playing, people might come out to the games, especially with schools finishing their years.

JB98
05-28-2012, 07:04 PM
Are you joking? The guy quit on the team. He was negotiating with the Marlins during the season. As far as baseball goes, he's dead to me. That may be harsh, but I loathe the guy now. He's Benedict Arnold.

Agreed, he can take a leap. I always say I won't quit on the White Sox as long as they don't quit on me.

Last year, Ozzie Guillen quit on the players, so the players quit on him. It was a travesty and an insult to the fans who paid their hard-earned dollars to go out and support that team.

Guillen should have been fired in May when the team's record was 11-22.

kittle42
05-28-2012, 07:26 PM
Nobody wants to talk about this now but considering the years those 4 players had, didn't Ozzie Guillen do one of his better jobs of managing the 2011 White Sox?

Utterly ridiculous.

amsteel
05-28-2012, 07:31 PM
Nobody wants to talk about this now but considering the years those 4 players had, didn't Ozzie Guillen do one of his better jobs of managing the 2011 White Sox?

The 2011 team outperformed their Pythagorean W-L by 4 games.

Tragg
05-28-2012, 07:35 PM
Sorry, but Williams' statement he has to give more in talent because he can't take on salary is just BS.
He overpaid for Edwin Jackson AND took his entire salary.
The only player he didn't take full salary for was Thome.
The Swisher 1 and 2 trades didn't involve him taking less salary.
The problem is that he negotiates a lot of bad deals.

TDog
05-28-2012, 07:40 PM
I really hope you're wrong and I pray the average fan has gotten smarter over the last 15 years. It was the right move then, and if we tank in the next month, will be the right move now. The Sox need to figure out a way to get more impact players in the system. If they can get legitimate high ceiling value for any of those big contracts, they need to pull the trigger, and that includes PK. If they continue this run until mid-July, my tune will change. As of right now, don't waste the future for fool's gold.

You don't build a winning team by dealing your stars at the trade deadline. The Whtie Sox could have picked up Keith Foulke for much less, but they wouldn't have been able to get Lorezno Barcelo, who was the top prospect in the deal.

The idea that fans would suggest trading Paul Konerko for prospects is ridiculous.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2012, 07:45 PM
Sorry, but Williams' statement he has to give more in talent because he can't take on salary is just BS.
He overpaid for Edwin Jackson AND took his entire salary.
The only player he didn't take full salary for was Thome.
The Swisher 1 and 2 trades didn't involve him taking less salary.
The problem is that he negotiates a lot of bad deals.

The Sox didn't pay Pierre's full salary; the Dodgers picked up some of it.

TaylorStSox
05-28-2012, 07:51 PM
You don't build a winning team by dealing your stars at the trade deadline. The Whtie Sox could have picked up Keith Foulke for much less, but they wouldn't have been able to get Lorezno Barcelo, who was the top prospect in the deal.

The idea that fans would suggest trading Paul Konerko for prospects is ridiculous.
I just don't think this team can compete right now. Trading all our assets over 30 might set us up for years. It won't be popular, but, IMO, it's the right move for the organization. As much as I love KW, his biggest fault is that he lacks vision. He always has us good enough, but not quite good enough sans 05.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2012, 07:51 PM
The Sox didn't pay Pierre's full salary; the Dodgers picked up some of it.

And now that I think about it, this explains why the Sox paid a larger price in prospects for Pierre.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2012, 07:54 PM
I just don't think this team can compete right now. Trading all our assets over 30 might set us up for years. It won't be popular, but, IMO, it's the right move for the organization. As much as I love KW, his biggest fault is that he lacks vision. He always has us good enough, but not quite good enough sans 05.

It's not the right move if the Sox are five over .500 and within five games of first in a mediocre division.

If we were chasing the 84 Tigers and were buried in the Wild Card standings, I'd support a fire sale.

But not now.

Domeshot17
05-28-2012, 07:56 PM
You can't just keep flying by the seat of your pants though. What would this team be if it had Gio mixed in with Sale and Danks and Floyd and Peavy. Gonzalez is one of the best pitchers in baseball this season. Moves like that have hindered us badly.

TaylorStSox
05-28-2012, 08:00 PM
It's not the right move if the Sox are five over .500 and within five games of first in a mediocre division.

If we were chasing the 84 Tigers and were buried in the Wild Card standings, I'd support a fire sale.

But not now.
Well, a lot depends on Peavy. If Peavy maintains, then we have the 1-2 punch to do something in the playoffs. If we're just trying to make the playoffs, but can't do anything when we get there, it's shortsighted to not rid ourselves of some bad contracts and get impact young talent. I can't believe I'm saying this because I hate prospects. I'm really enjoying this run, but I'm not a believer yet. The long term plan was a rebuild/reload. Stay the course.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2012, 08:04 PM
You can't just keep flying by the seat of your pants though. What would this team be if it had Gio mixed in with Sale and Danks and Floyd and Peavy. Gonzalez is one of the best pitchers in baseball this season. Moves like that have hindered us badly.

I agree. Both Swisher deals were terrible, as was the Hudson/Jackson trade. We'd be in tremendous shape right now with Gio, Peavy, Sale, Hudson and Danks in the rotation and Humber and Floyd in the pen instead of Stewart and Ohman.

TDog
05-28-2012, 08:05 PM
I just don't think this team can compete right now. Trading all our assets over 30 might set us up for years. It won't be popular, but, IMO, it's the right move for the organization. As much as I love KW, his biggest fault is that he lacks vision. He always has us good enough, but not quite good enough sans 05.

Trade your assets over 30 if you want to further alienate fans and assure that the White Sox will perpetually be only a couple years away from being competitive.

TaylorStSox
05-28-2012, 08:18 PM
Trade your assets over 30 if you want to further alienate fans and assure that the White Sox will perpetually be only a couple years away from being competitive.
The Sox have a strong enough fanbase to withstand a rebuild. For many, being a Sox fan is a part of life. We aren't drawing the casual fan anyway. Building a team that can compete year in and year out is the way to draw the casual fan. Your second point has no basis in fact.

Brian26
05-28-2012, 08:35 PM
Your second point has no basis in fact.

Actually, it is more factual than the assumption that trading Konerko would "set us up for years to come."

TaylorStSox
05-28-2012, 08:40 PM
Actually, it is more factual than the assumption that trading Konerko would "set us up for years to come."
A. Prove it. B. I never said trading only Konerko will "set us up for years to come." I included PK among every veteran on the team. I don't think we're that good, long term. Why hang onto Konerko if we aren't going to compete for a title?

I hope I'm completely wrong. I'm not going to let a nice run cloud my judgement of what this team really is, average to slightly above average.

Brian26
05-28-2012, 08:47 PM
A. Prove it. B. I never said trading only Konerko will "set us up for years to come." I included PK among every veteran on the team. I don't think we're that good, long term. Why hang onto Konerko if we aren't going to compete for a title?

I know, you said "every player over 30". I used Konerko since he is the best asset right now. Fire sales of that magnitude (if the Sox all of a sudden traded Konerko, Thornton, Dunn and AJ) rarely happen.

I can only prove it by giving you examples of all of the high-profile deadline trades that haven't worked out for the sellers. In the past decade, only two really stick out as good deals: Cleveland getting Sizemore, Lee, & Phillips for Colon, and Texas getting Andrus, Feliz, Salty, & Harrison for Teixiera, which is universally panned as one of the worst trades ever (for ATL).

I think the Sox have much more to lose by dumping guys now than what they could possibly gain in a best-case-scenario.

TaylorStSox
05-28-2012, 08:54 PM
I know, you said "every player over 30". I used Konerko since he is the best asset right now. Fire sales of that magnitude (if the Sox all of a sudden traded Konerko, Thornton, Dunn and AJ) rarely happen.

I can only prove it by giving you examples of all of the high-profile deadline trades that haven't worked out for the sellers. In the past decade, only two really stick out as good deals: Cleveland getting Sizemore, Lee, & Phillips for Colon, and Texas getting Andrus, Feliz, Salty, & Harrison for Teixiera, which is universally panned as one of the worst trades ever (for ATL).

I think the Sox have much more to lose by dumping guys now than what they could possibly gain in a best-case-scenario.

Sure, it might not work. However, I see a team that's going to win 86 games, miss the playoffs and lose Peavy, Thornton, AJ and Crain with nothing to show for it and not a whole lot in the minors. That's baseball's version of "NBA Hell." Also, the Sox will have money to spend, but we've never been an attractive destination for FA's. The holes won't be easy to fill if they aren't internally.

I hate to be a killjoy, I really do. I'd love to have this thread bumped in October and eat the egg off my face with a side of crow. I just don't see it happening.


*edit*
Even if we are legit, we have to move Thornton, Crain or Ohman. We have the bullpen depth.

Noneck
05-28-2012, 09:10 PM
Sure, it might not work. However, I see a team that's going to win 86 games, miss the playoffs and lose Peavy, Thornton, AJ and Crain with nothing to show for it and not a whole lot in the minors. That's baseball's version of "NBA Hell." Also, the Sox will have money to spend, but we've never been an attractive destination for FA's. The holes won't be easy to fill if they aren't internally.

I hate to be a killjoy, I really do. I'd love to have this thread bumped in October and eat the egg off my face with a side of crow. I just don't see it happening.


*edit*
Even if we are legit, we have to move Thornton, Crain or Ohman. We have the bullpen depth.


I do understand where you are coming from but believe me if the Sox are right there and they start trading these guys, next years attendance will be similar to 1981. And coming back from the white flag trade will seem like a day at the park compared to this. Many things he is but stupid he isnt, Reinsdorf will never do this.

shingo10
05-28-2012, 09:15 PM
Meanwhile the Sox are playing good ball, have a very likeable team/manager, and are exceeding everyone's expectations. The future will take care of itself just as it always has. If anything this team has more options now than at the start of the season and that's encouraging. If they keep winning the attendance will take care of itself as well. If not then whatever has to happen will.

soxinem1
05-28-2012, 09:32 PM
A rebuild does not mean your teams cannot be competitive. It also does not mean it should take forever, like a KC or PIT 'rebuild' that have gone on for two decades.

KW has never rebuilt a team since he has been GM, but both of his predecessors have.

The 1988 White Sox were stripped of three starters from the prior season that logged 646 IP and half of the 1987 victories between them. But since that '87 team was never better than it's 2-1 start, it was time to rebuild the entire organization. Since the 1984-1990 teams were offensively and prospect-challenged, the succeeding 71 and 69 win seasons of 1988 and 1989 were no surprise.

Many of the players acquired in the resulting trades, along with some savvy draft picks resulted in the 1990 White Sox winning 94 games, spawned three straight solid seasons that resulted in the 1993 AL West Championship, and the core of the 1994 and 1996 teams that were real contenders as well.

The 1997 White Sox may have done the White Flag Trade, but it was necessary and the right move. Too bad they couldn't have done a few more with that team. They peaked at five over .500 and had no chance in a playoff series even if it got there. Guillen, Baines, Karkovice, Drabek, and others were no longer productive and were not coming back. That was a lot of holes to fill just for position players. After having Alex Fernandez walk away the year before, losing three FA pitchers (Alvarez and Hernandez were not returning, and Darwin was 41) for nothing was not going to accomplish anything moving forward.

But just two seasons later the newer, younger White Sox began to develop, then the 2000 White Sox clubbed the ball and won the Central, while the team contended for most of the next six seasons and won a World Championship.

The 2012 White Sox have shown more pitching wise than we could have expected. I have not read one post since the start of the season calling for Buehrle to be properly replaced.

They have definitely been more fun to watch, something the 1987 and 1997 teams never were. And there is definite home-grown talent on this team. We will just have to see how the future unfolds.

I just wish Reinsdorf would invest more in amateur scouting and signing. Teams that win more than us and have lower draft position have repeatedly cranked out solid and star-quality players from within because they invest time scouting and signing in other talent pools besides the drafts.

KMcMahon817
05-28-2012, 09:40 PM
I agree. Both Swisher deals were terrible, as was the Hudson/Jackson trade. We'd be in tremendous shape right now with Gio, Peavy, Sale, Hudson and Danks in the rotation and Humber and Floyd in the pen instead of Stewart and Ohman.

Every team would be pretty well off if they never traded any of their top prospects. Thinking about it in that light is an act in futility. Sure, the Hudson and Swisher trades sucked, but they're over. You gotta give up something to get something.

Domeshot17
05-28-2012, 09:40 PM
Meanwhile the Sox are playing good ball, have a very likeable team/manager, and are exceeding everyone's expectations. The future will take care of itself just as it always has. If anything this team has more options now than at the start of the season and that's encouraging. If they keep winning the attendance will take care of itself as well. If not then whatever has to happen will.

Well, the future does not really take care of itself. That line of thinking has caused some historic franchises to be mediocre for insanely long periods of time.

I don't think you firesale right now, because this team actually could play with some October teams. Chris Sale gives us what Mark Buehrle just never could, a game 1 pitcher. Getting in could be tough, but this team has 4-7 game talent. Sale-Peavy-Danks could be very good. You can deal with the fact now that Gavin falls apart in the playoffs, and Humber just moves to long relief.

That said, you need some line of forward thinking. Thinking the future just will be fine cost us an All Star starting pitcher. You have to keep the farm stocked and deep. You have to draft and develop well. Had the Sox not fallen Ass-Backwards into Chris Sale, this team might be a complete and total disaster. But we have a chance to remain competitive, 85-88 wins a year while we restock the farm. We need to do that. And if this team regresses and we are 6-7 back come July, then yes, You trade Peavy, Rios, AJ, (Maybe Konerko), Floyd etc.

mzh
05-28-2012, 09:42 PM
I just wish Reinsdorf would invest more in amateur scouting and signing. Teams that win more than us and have lower draft position have repeatedly cranked out solid and star-quality players from within because they invest time scouting and signing in other talent pools besides the drafts.
This is key. I would feel a lot better about having a complete firesale if there were actually some kids in the minors we could look forward to in a couple years. Right now we have Sale, Viciedo, and maybe (but probably not) Flowers. Between 1987 and 1990, the Sox drafted and developed Black Jack, Robin, Frank, and Alex Fernandez to be the core of the new team. After 1997, there was Caballo, Magglio, Crede, and Mike Cameron/Paul Konerko to look forward to now.

The problem with this team is that with the exception of Paulie and Peavy, nobody else could bring back legitimate prospects to build a future around. AJ is a 35 year old catcher, and Rios and Dunn both have long, expensive contracts. Point is, I think we might as well see what we can get out of these guys while we can, because I think there ain't much else we can do with them.

TDog
05-28-2012, 09:51 PM
The Sox have a strong enough fanbase to withstand a rebuild. For many, being a Sox fan is a part of life. We aren't drawing the casual fan anyway. Building a team that can compete year in and year out is the way to draw the casual fan. Your second point has no basis in fact.

Both of my points you responeded to here have a closer connection to reality than anything I have seen you post in this thread.

You don't build a team that can compete year after year by trading trading for prospects at the deadline. At least, no teams ever have. You can point to a few prospects moved at the deadline who turned out to be stars like Jeff Bagwell, but most of the prospects moved have proved inconsequential compared to expectations.

And this year, the trade value for veterans is likely to be even lower than it has been in recent years because of the changing wild card.

I am fairly certain, though, that Paul Konerko isn't going anywhere.

Noneck
05-28-2012, 09:56 PM
The problem with this team is that with the exception of Paulie and Peavy, nobody else could bring back legitimate prospects to build a future around.

When you add Peavys option to the remainder of this years contract, a prospective club would be paying approximately 1M per start for Peavys services at the trade deadline. I wouldnt expect big returns for Peavy.

guillensdisciple
05-28-2012, 10:03 PM
Why trade? Why do it when the team is playing like it is?

I don't think we're the Gods of baseball, but I like our direction. Our youth is panning out for us. De Aza, Viciedo are amazing. Morel is a failure but that's okay, HUdson will do for now.

Dunn is performing like he should have last year. We have one year and 10 months left with Paulie and his amazingness.

Our bullpen is full of rookie talent that is very very good. The only thing that worries me is our starting pitching. We have Sale, but once Peavy leaves we're dry. I don't trust Danks or Floyd, and HUmber really is a 4.0 and under .500 pitcher. We basically have a 1, 3, and 5 for next year. DOn't have a clue what Floyd is, I just don't want him on this team.

Either way, draft pitching- go really heavy. I like Quintana, so maybe he can get a shot to start next year.

As far as next year is concerned, we have our hitting down, with Dayan as an anchor. So, don't get greedy, just build from the ground up. If anything, don'tr trade to win, trade for prospects. AKA, Dunn or Peavy. Paulie is untouchable, he has to finish up here.

If the Sox are 25 over by the deadline, then ****, definitely don't touch anything. I believe in this team if that is the case. If we're floating then sell sell sell.

jdm2662
05-28-2012, 10:03 PM
First off, Kenny Williams should be fired for being an arrogant ******* and performing poorly at his job the last few years. Here's an idea Kenny, shut the hell up for once in your life. People will put up with your crap when you do your job well. When you don't, well... You don't see people worshiping you anymore, now do you.

Second, if the Sox are over .500 and within striking distance of the division, they aren't blowing the team up. They also shouldn't make a trade because they simply aren't good enough to deplete their already crappy farm system. The last thing I want is for the Sox to trade for another washed up big name just so Kenny Williams can stroke his ego again. Besides, even if they were out of it by the deadline, blowing up the team completely isn't the answer, either. Have you guys seen the Cubs lately? Even if the wonder kid Theo does rebuild their organization, they aren't going to win anything for at least 3-4 years. Somehow, I don't think people here would like that.

Sure, trading Peavy makes complete sense if they are out of it. I just don't think Kenny Williams is going to get a proper return. He hasn't exactly gotten one lately, so why should I trust him now?

34 Inch Stick
05-28-2012, 10:24 PM
It was nice not hearing a word from or abou the GM early in the season

Tragg
05-28-2012, 10:25 PM
The Sox didn't pay Pierre's full salary; the Dodgers picked up some of it.
And we didn't give up anything either. And Pierre wasn't very good.
That one he should use as his model...when teams are looking to dump salary, don't give them anything in terms of talent.
Most of his trades the last 3 years have made the organization worse. I just have little interest in him eyeing some veteran, and piling on prospects, like he usually does. We paid a big price for Swisher and Jackson and then basically gave them away a year later (and we did get a good year out of Jackson, but Stewart isn't a serious prospect).
His consistent strength is getting players off the scrap heap, the waiver wires, etc. Stick to that.

Some things in the minors might be falling in place. If J Mitchell will ever be ready (and he's looking pretty good), it will be toward the end of 2013, right when Rios' contract is up. Those pitchers we got this offseason, if ever ready, will be ready in 2013 and 2014. Don't mess that up.

sachin
05-28-2012, 10:32 PM
I remember Sox fans being ticked when KW traded Brandon McCarthy for Danks, for not bringing up super-farmhand Kris Honel. Yeah, he's made some bad moves like Todd Ritchie & Rob mackowiak, but overall KW's doing ok...

Zakath
05-28-2012, 10:33 PM
PK must stay with the Sox until he retires.

I agree. We don't need another Frank Thomas situation.

I frankly get tired of people looking to trade someone when their value appears to be high, to get prospects that we'll keep, until their value gets high, etc. With that mentality, you become KC or Pittsburgh really fast, and other teams wait for you to develop their talent.

The one thing you have to admire about an organization like the Yankees is that they stay loyal to their main players. There was never a question that Jeter or Rivera or Posada would retire as Yankees, and I can never see them trading Cano.

Paulie's been the image of the Sox for nearly a decade. He needs to retire at the Cell.

slavko
05-28-2012, 10:39 PM
Got a knack for saying the wrong thing, doesn't he? Fixed the managerial blabbing problem, kept the GM problem. He does a better job when he has less money to work with, so the mediocre attendance may be a good thing as long the team stays close.

WhiteSox5187
05-28-2012, 10:42 PM
I remember Sox fans being ticked when KW traded Brandon McCarthy for Danks, for not bringing up super-farmhand Kris Honel. Yeah, he's made some bad moves like Todd Ritchie & Rob mackowiak, but overall KW's doing ok...

From about 2004 to 2008 Kenny made a series of fantastic moves. Since 2008 the White Sox have been mediocre to bad save for a stretch in 2010 and I am hard pressed to name any good moves Kenny has made since the 2007 off season. Maybe signing Viciedo. But it has been a lot of trades that added a lot to the payroll and gutted the farm system with little returns.

kevingrt
05-28-2012, 10:46 PM
From about 2004 to 2008 Kenny made a series of fantastic moves. Since 2008 the White Sox have been mediocre to bad save for a stretch in 2010 and I am hard pressed to name any good moves Kenny has made since the 2007 off season. Maybe signing Viciedo. But it has been a lot of trades that added a lot to the payroll and gutted the farm system with little returns.

Drafting Sale and Reed, resigning Konerko. And those are about the end of KW's good moves.

TheOldRoman
05-28-2012, 10:48 PM
Well, the future does not really take care of itself. That line of thinking has caused some historic franchises to be mediocre for insanely long periods of time.

I don't think you firesale right now, because this team actually could play with some October teams. Chris Sale gives us what Mark Buehrle just never could, a game 1 pitcher. Getting in could be tough, but this team has 4-7 game talent. Sale-Peavy-Danks could be very good. You can deal with the fact now that Gavin falls apart in the playoffs, and Humber just moves to long relief.

That said, you need some line of forward thinking. Thinking the future just will be fine cost us an All Star starting pitcher. You have to keep the farm stocked and deep. You have to draft and develop well. Had the Sox not fallen Ass-Backwards into Chris Sale, this team might be a complete and total disaster. But we have a chance to remain competitive, 85-88 wins a year while we restock the farm. We need to do that. And if this team regresses and we are 6-7 back come July, then yes, You trade Peavy, Rios, AJ, (Maybe Konerko), Floyd etc.That's a ridiculous statement considering he only pitched one playoff game (after being tired out from three weeks of a four-man rotation) and gave up 4 runs before getting pulled. There's a lot of hate for Gavin on this board, and while he has been very inconsistent, he also has been productive and had streaks where he was among the best in baseball.

WhiteSox5187
05-28-2012, 10:53 PM
Drafting Sale and Reed, resigning Konerko. And those are about the end of KW's good moves.

Sale and Reed appear to be good moves but I think that Reisendorf should get more of the praise in re-signing Konerko. I think that was more Jerry than Kenny.

rdivaldi
05-28-2012, 10:59 PM
Had the Sox not fallen Ass-Backwards into Chris Sale

Soooooo, the Sox cannot be credited for drafting a good player, but can most definitely be blamed for drafting a bad one. Sometimes Domeshot you need to stop trying to have your cake and eat it too. Everyone knows that you don't like the White Sox farm system or their drafts, but you wander into the ridiculous zone a bit too much.

Noneck
05-28-2012, 11:01 PM
Sale and Reed appear to be good moves but I think that Reisendorf should get more of the praise in re-signing Konerko. I think that was more Jerry than Kenny.


The big money deals I am sure go through Reinsdorf. Crediting Reinsdorf for the good deals and knocking Williams for the bad ones is shortsighted.

doublem23
05-28-2012, 11:12 PM
Sale and Reed appear to be good moves but I think that Reisendorf should get more of the praise in re-signing Konerko. I think that was more Jerry than Kenny.

Very easy to win arguments when you get to pick and choose the facts you'd like to include

TaylorStSox
05-28-2012, 11:12 PM
I agree. We don't need another Frank Thomas situation.

I frankly get tired of people looking to trade someone when their value appears to be high, to get prospects that we'll keep, until their value gets high, etc. With that mentality, you become KC or Pittsburgh really fast, and other teams wait for you to develop their talent.

The one thing you have to admire about an organization like the Yankees is that they stay loyal to their main players. There was never a question that Jeter or Rivera or Posada would retire as Yankees, and I can never see them trading Cano.

Paulie's been the image of the Sox for nearly a decade. He needs to retire at the Cell.
Nobody's asking for this. We have a talented young core. By trading the veterans, ideally, you strengthen that core. The Sox aren't like The Pirates or Royals. They can afford to resign their own. Nobody wants a perpetual prospect loop.

3 months ago Peavy and Rios were a "sunk cost." Now, you might not only be able to dump them, you can get actual talent.

doublem23
05-28-2012, 11:16 PM
Nobody's asking for this. We have a talented young core. By trading the veterans, ideally, you strengthen that core. The Sox aren't like The Pirates or Royals. They can afford to resign their own. Nobody wants a perpetual prospect loop.

3 months ago Peavy and Rios were a "sunk cost." Now, you might not only be able to dump them, you can get actual talent.

I love how you seem to completely disregard the much more likely situation, that if the Sox blow the team up, whomever they acquire won't be worth anything.

Frankly, a playoff push in 2012 would be the best thing for this team.

Tragg
05-28-2012, 11:31 PM
Every team would be pretty well off if they never traded any of their top prospects. Thinking about it in that light is an act in futility. Sure, the Hudson and Swisher trades sucked, but they're over. You gotta give up something to get something.

WE give up too much.
We gave up too much for Swisher, even had he performed for us like he performed for NY.
And in the circumstances of Jackson, we should have been able to nab him for one B prospect and taking that salary (Az dumping salary; jackson had a ERA over 5). You simply have to negotiate better deals than that, friendly Arizona or not.

SteveFakeBlood
05-28-2012, 11:37 PM
OK, I'll prepare for the hate:

1) Can we just all agree that Kenny Williams is basically the Adam Dunn of General Managers? He can strike out spectacularly (gutting the farm system, both Swisher trades, Edwin Jackson deal, etc.)- but he's also homered several times (getting Alexei for peanuts, Danks for McCarthy, Quentin for Chris Carter, Floyd and Gonzalez for Garcia, not to mention several moves before the 2005 season, etc.). Beyond drafting the likes of Beckham (again, for all his struggles at the plate, he's been one of the best defensive second basemen in the league, a claim which even a cursory look at any fielding stats will back up), Sale and Reed and re-signing AJ and Konerko he hasn't done much positive in the last few years- but he isn't as horrible as everyone seems to think.

2) Ozzie left in a horrible way, but eventually you'll all forgive him. He played shortstop for us for 13 seasons, led us to a World Series title and is the only manager in the history of the club to take the team to multiple playoff appearances (yes, Al Lopez would've probably led the Sox to several had divisions existed in the '50s, but they didn't...). Ozzie can be quite an ass, and maybe he should be remembered for that- but it'd be crazy not to remember the positives of his time here as well.

3) The team maybe could be marketed better, but we need to remind ourselves that it's a tough situation. Do we legitimately want to try to compete for the casual fanbase the Cubs attract? And would it be reasonable to think we ever really could compete for that fanbase? The focus still needs to be on bringing legitimate fans back to the ballpark- maybe there is something in trying to attract UIC students- but my guess is that most of them are from the Chicagoland area and their loyalties were forged at birth or at least from when they were young. Anyway, we need to get existing fans back and if I knew an easy way to do that beyond lower ticket prices and winning games, I'd be gunning for a job in the White Sox marketing department rather than posting on here.

4) That said, I think a combination of success, more creative deals on tickets (a la Humber's first start back after the perfect game) and better weather should help the attendance problem take care of itself, at least somewhat.

5) KW and Reinsdorf are going to try to avoid a 1997 White Flag trade at all costs, had the team not found success in 2000, it would've taken a few more seasons for people to get over feeling alienated. People forget that the 1997 Indians only won 86 games- not to mention the WS-winning 2006 Cardinals only won 83 games. If you've got a good rotation and a couple bats, anything can happen in the playoffs- especially with an extra Wild Card slot. The Tigers have a few pretty great players, but aside from that they've got a lot of very streaky players and a few injuries could knock them down even further (so far, this team has us in 2011 written all over it) and I just think the Indians don't have enough (shaky rotation, injury problems, not enough bats)- we have every chance to sneak into the playoffs. Obviously, we've been let down plenty of times before (in my lifetime: '84, '94, '96, '97, '01, '03, '04, '06, '09-11, etc.), so I'm not expecting anything- but if this team if less than 5 games out in July there's no need to sell (and honestly less than 10, we should think long and hard before selling- no one in our division are world beaters).

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it... unless I'm convinced otherwise by better arguments.


~ Steve

SoxSpeed22
05-28-2012, 11:37 PM
Prospects are called prospects for a reason, since they have a better chance of fizzling out. Brian Anderson, Jeremy Reed, Kris Honel and Jon Rauch were supposed to be "can't miss prospects." I'm not saying to depend on one or the other in terms of young guys and veterans, you just need a healthy mix (which the Sox have).
Trading Peavy, Thorny and Floyd will make sense if the Sox are not in contention, but if they are, there's no reason to pull the rug out from under it. If anything, that will cause more fan backlash than losing 100 games.

Tragg
05-28-2012, 11:55 PM
A rebuild does not mean your teams cannot be competitive. It also does not mean it should take forever, like a KC or PIT 'rebuild' that have gone on for two decades.

KW has never rebuilt a team since he has been GM, but both of his predecessors have.

The 1988 White Sox were stripped of three starters from the prior season that logged 646 IP and half of the 1987 victories between them. But since that '87 team was never better than it's 2-1 start, it was time to rebuild the entire organization. Since the 1984-1990 teams were offensively and prospect-challenged, the succeeding 71 and 69 win seasons of 1988 and 1989 were no surprise.

Many of the players acquired in the resulting trades, along with some savvy draft picks resulted in the 1990 White Sox winning 94 games, spawned three straight solid seasons that resulted in the 1993 AL West Championship, and the core of the 1994 and 1996 teams that were real contenders as well..
This was a real interesting post.
I guess where I might quibble is that the sales of 1987 and 1997 really didn't set the team up. They brought in role players.
The 1997 white flag was least successful - all we got were Foulke (who was good, but who Williams traded for a dud, plus a pitcher who had one good year - thankfully it was 2005) and Howry (a solid relief pitcher, but no more). The core of the early 2000s teams were the development of Ordonez, Lee, Buehrle and Durham, while Williams did a decent job filling out the rest of the roster with players picked up here and there.
1987 is little more interesting, but all we got for the Bannister and Baines trades were Melido Perez, Greg Hibbard and Sosa. Perez and Hibbard were helpful as we built to 1993 and Sosa, well, he never did much with us. But they weren't major cogs when we finally fielded real contenders. Just as important in that interim early 1990s period were other scrap players like Eric King (acquired for....Kenny Williams), Barry Jones, Scott Radinsky, Bobby Thigpen, Ivan Calderon...... while we waited our brilliant drafts of Ventura, McDowell, Fernandez, Thomas etc. to come to fruition plus the FA signing of Tim Raines.
Then, like now, most efforts at "blockbuster" failed...Cory Snyder, Steve Sax were disasters.
So, I would suggest, that they keys to both eras were players our organization developed, plus a line of "interim" talent that the organization has done a good job acquiring that allowed us to be decent, while our real talent developed. Where we have failed is in "blockbusters".

Right now, most of our young talent is on the big club: Sale, Beckham, Viciedo, Flowers, Reed. We also have some quality veterans (who are getting up there) who won't be around for that much longer. I don't think we're in a position to do anything OTHER than what the Sox have done really well for 20 years: pick up role players to fill holes and hope some turn into above average players (De Aza, eg.)

BigHurt3515
05-29-2012, 12:10 AM
1 thing we need to also start doing is looking at international players. We have Ramirez and Viciedo who have turned out pretty well so far. Im not sure it would really hurt us any and we might be able to find a few more hidden gems.

This team isn't as bad as we all thought they were going to be. If all or nearly all the players play to their potential we are a hell of a ball club as we have been seeing these last 10 games.

I say if we are in first or only 3 or 4 games out of first at the deadline we don't trade anyone unless Molina or Castro are doing amazing in the minors then we can trade Floyd. I also think that Quintana was a very good pick up, he is only 23 and I think Coop will be able to do a lot with him. We can't afford to give up any of our very few prospects

If we are 5 or more games out we trade whoever we can. Peavy, Thornton, and Floyd are the main 3.

Hopefully after I get my Sports Management degree in 3 years the Sox will hire me and I can help turn the whole marketing thing around :D:

WhiteSox5187
05-29-2012, 01:12 AM
Very easy to win arguments when you get to pick and choose the facts you'd like to include

I recall reading a lot of articles that said JR was the guy negotiating Konerko's new contract. But even if Kenny is given credit for re-signing Konerko he has still done a lousy job with his moves since the end of the 2008 season (and one could make an argument that his moves DURING the 2008 season didn't pan out that great). Save for Konerko none of his moves have worked out very well. Now I know that Dunn is hitting well of late and maybe that move will work out but I think it is far too early to call Sale or Reed a success yet.

WhiteSox5187
05-29-2012, 01:16 AM
Soooooo, the Sox cannot be credited for drafting a good player, but can most definitely be blamed for drafting a bad one. Sometimes Domeshot you need to stop trying to have your cake and eat it too. Everyone knows that you don't like the White Sox farm system or their drafts, but you wander into the ridiculous zone a bit too much.

Allow me to begin by saying that Sale looks fantastic this year but it is too early to call him a success as a starting pitcher. So far Sale is the only first round draft pick by Kenny to have much success at the major league level (saving for the 400 or so ABs by Josh Fields in 2007). That is a pretty damming testament to Kenny Williams. And to excuse the lack of success of the farm system under Kenny as being because of Jerry is taking a very large stroll through the ridiculous zone as well.

balke
05-29-2012, 01:26 AM
A lot of these guys are getting old (AJ/PK/Thornton 35 or older). This team is playing well - some guys playing well over their heads. Kenny can do whatever he wants and I'm cool with it. I'd love to ride it out at the moment - but I'd respect a fiscal move if it makes sense for the long term.

Sox might have to sell high on some guys for a change instead of riding it out and picking up more salary.

I think Kenny is trying to buffer the fans to that idea. Don't expect more money to be thrown at a $97,919,500 2nd place team. Now, if the Sox are still hot towards the deadline - and the fans are showing support - he might add someone instead of cut salary.

I think that's a pretty fair tradeoff. Fans say "win and we'll come out". Kenny says "come out while we are winning and we'll spend more money".

pudge
05-29-2012, 01:37 AM
This was a real interesting post.
I guess where I might quibble is that the sales of 1987 and 1997 really didn't set the team up. They brought in role players.
The 1997 white flag was least successful - all we got were Foulke (who was good, but who Williams traded for a dud, plus a pitcher who had one good year - thankfully it was 2005) and Howry (a solid relief pitcher, but no more). The core of the early 2000s teams were the development of Ordonez, Lee, Buehrle and Durham, while Williams did a decent job filling out the rest of the roster with players picked up here and there.
1987 is little more interesting, but all we got for the Bannister and Baines trades were Melido Perez, Greg Hibbard and Sosa. Perez and Hibbard were helpful as we built to 1993 and Sosa, well, he never did much with us. But they weren't major cogs when we finally fielded real contenders. Just as important in that interim early 1990s period were other scrap players like Eric King (acquired for....Kenny Williams), Barry Jones, Scott Radinsky, Bobby Thigpen, Ivan Calderon...... while we waited our brilliant drafts of Ventura, McDowell, Fernandez, Thomas etc. to come to fruition plus the FA signing of Tim Raines.
Then, like now, most efforts at "blockbuster" failed...Cory Snyder, Steve Sax were disasters.
So, I would suggest, that they keys to both eras were players our organization developed, plus a line of "interim" talent that the organization has done a good job acquiring that allowed us to be decent, while our real talent developed. Where we have failed is in "blockbusters".


You forgot Jose DeLeon being traded for Lance Johnson, who was a pretty major part of '90-'94. But you're right, the biggest thing that set the Sox up was losing from '87-'89 and collecting fantastic draft picks.

Bottom line, no way this team should sell. With the extra wild card, and nobody in the AL outside of Texas really tearing it up, you go for it. Why not? As someone already mentioned 80-win teams can go the distance in the baseball playoffs. Yes, the wild card one-gamer is going to make that more difficult, but not impossible.

Frater Perdurabo
05-29-2012, 06:21 AM
2005 would not have happened without two pretty big trades happening in 2004. I'm not saying other moves weren't crucial, but Contreras and Garcia made up 40% of the starting rotation, and even if they weren't "blockbusters," they still were big when they were made.

tstrike2000
05-29-2012, 07:36 AM
They do such a poor job of marketing this team. They are so quick to throw up their hands and say, "The fans won't show up. It is what it is."

Hmm, maybe Brooks will actually read this.

cws05champ
05-29-2012, 08:16 AM
3) The team maybe could be marketed better, but we need to remind ourselves that it's a tough situation. Do we legitimately want to try to compete for the casual fanbase the Cubs attract? And would it be reasonable to think we ever really could compete for that fanbase? The focus still needs to be on bringing legitimate fans back to the ballpark- maybe there is something in trying to attract UIC students- but my guess is that most of them are from the Chicagoland area and their loyalties were forged at birth or at least from when they were young.

4) That said, I think a combination of success, more creative deals on tickets (a la Humber's first start back after the perfect game) and better weather should help the attendance problem take care of itself, at least somewhat.

I agree wholeheartedly with points 1,2....well said. Yes, I think the Sox do want the casual fanbase to come out. Yes, there are die hards on the Northside and Southside of town which you will not change. Then there are those that lean a certain way but in the end will root for either team if they do well because they are a Chicago team. And then those that really don't follow baseball that closely but will take in a few games here and there. The Sox can definitely attract the casual fans with the right ticket prices and marketing mix. And the South Loop student base can be had even if their loyalties lie elsewhere (look at Wrigley, there are tons of people from other cities that move to Chicago's North side and just go to Cubs games and call themselves Cub fans). If you give discounted Student tickets and discounted concessions (with Student ID) you may give them an outlet to go in the neighborhood that is within a students budget.

beasly213
05-29-2012, 08:30 AM
This thread is all over the place and has been fun to read. But Kenny says this kind of stuff every year. Its just positioning. Frankly, we dont know what Kenny is actually planning to do but right now all he is doing is trying to improve any leverage he may have over other GMs in the league. If he flat out says in the media Were looking to add guys no matter what the cost. He loses some leverage in negotiating when people know hes a buyer.

Again, he says this every year and hes the only GM I can think of that actually blames his fans year after year in the media for not showing up to games which is pretty ridiculous.

jdm2662
05-29-2012, 08:40 AM
OK, I'll prepare for the hate:




3) The team maybe could be marketed better, but we need to remind ourselves that it's a tough situation. Do we legitimately want to try to compete for the casual fanbase the Cubs attract? And would it be reasonable to think we ever really could compete for that fanbase? The focus still needs to be on bringing legitimate fans back to the ballpark- maybe there is something in trying to attract UIC students- but my guess is that most of them are from the Chicagoland area and their loyalties were forged at birth or at least from when they were young. Anyway, we need to get existing fans back and if I knew an easy way to do that beyond lower ticket prices and winning games, I'd be gunning for a job in the White Sox marketing department rather than posting on here.



Whether people like it or not, this is what spikes attendance in advanced ticket sales. Look at the Cubs at the moment. Their attendance numbers are spiked because of season/scalper tickets sales. However, if anyone ever noticed, there are quite a bit of empty seats. Obviously, the place would be full if they were at least decent. But, since they sold so many tickets in advance, it's not nearly as bad as it looks.

I was on this board in 2006 and there were plenty of people not liking the so called causal fans that were coming to the park in high numbers. The Sox season ticket/advanced sales are WAY down this season. It's really not worth buying a season ticket package because most people can still pick and choose what game they want to go to. They also don't want to commit to certain games months in advance. Even if the Sox, continue to do well, they aren't going to average 30K+ people the rest of the summer. Depending on walkup sales isn't going to cut it.

russ99
05-29-2012, 08:48 AM
My two thoughts:

1) I had a great time at the Sox game on Saturday, but that ticket still cost $44 (before fees). Not only is the upper deck too expensive, the lower bowl is too. The corners and the bleachers were partially empty this weekend for beautiful weather, a well performing Sox team against a division rival.

Why not have some kind of ticket deal, like the Ozzie plan with a lower price? Do a 5 or 10-game pack with a discount. Get the fans in the park. A little revenue is better than no revenue from all those empty seats.

2) The time to deal isn't now. This team looks good, let them play and see what happens. If you don't want to make a decision on Peavy's option, deal him at the deadline if we're not in striking distance of a playoff spot.

Next year's payroll is the lowest I've seen the Sox carry since 2005. We can make a few moves next offseason to add even more talent. So there's no need to do a fire sale or gut rebuild.

Lip Man 1
05-29-2012, 08:52 AM
Tragg:

Raines wasn't a FA, he was acquired for Calderon and Jones.

Lip

roylestillman
05-29-2012, 09:13 AM
Last post from me on this whole what comes first attendance or winning. Took a look at the 2004 season. If you remember nobody expected much from this team, but Loaiza and Buehrle got off to great starts and Shingo time was all the rage. Despite being in first around Memorial Day, crowds were running around 14,000 or 15,000. It wasn't until late June that crowds of 30,000+ became common. The walk up crowd surprise game I remember was July 10th. It took until nearly the fourth inning until the crowd of 37,000 got in the door. Classic Burls game, it was over in about two hours and the fireworks show started while it was still light out.

Anyway, maybe we're all (including me) too early on this attendance hand wringing. History shows it builds slow. People will come Ray, people will most definitely come.

TheOldRoman
05-29-2012, 09:20 AM
2005 would not have happened without two pretty big trades happening in 2004. I'm not saying other moves weren't crucial, but Contreras and Garcia made up 40% of the starting rotation, and even if they weren't "blockbusters," they still were big when they were made.Those are the types of moves the Sox should probably make this year. Seemingly lateral moves which set them up for the future. If they nosedive and are 8 games back at the deadline, then they should trade Rios and Peavy if they can, possibly Floyd, definitely Thornton, Crane, Ohman and AJ. If they are still in it (which I expect them to be), they shouldn't be packaging whatever they have in the farm system for a huge move, they should make small moves for scrapheap type players. For example, if when trading Thornton they have the choice between a hard throwing pitcher Coop has wanted who has underachieved in the majors or a 20 year old B prospect (because they aren't getting a top prospect for him), I would probably go with the latter.

The Sox have a pretty decent core here going forward with Viciedo, Konerko, Dunn, De Aza, Beckham, Ramirez and maybe eventually Flowers. Those are the guys who they shouldn't trade because either they are young and have potential or wouldn't get anything close to equal value for what they are worth to the team. Sure, if someone offers you the world for a DeAza, go for it, but I doubt it. Even if a few of the older non-Konerko vets get moved, I think they could still compete next year. Basically, don't completely blow it up and don't put all your chips down. Treat this as a building year, don't go all out, and only make moves which make sense long term.

TomBradley72
05-29-2012, 09:22 AM
The White Sox were < .500 as recently as a week or so ago- so I'd really wish KW would find a way to keep his mouth shut about attendance, etc.- one reason the fan base is hesitant to "commit" to this team and pay the ridiculous "dynamic" prices is that the White Sox management (KW & JR) did not show ANY commitment to this team either- they let Buehrle go, traded Santos for a AA prospect, and came up with an inspiring marketing theme of "Appreciate the Game"- in my business we try to "adjust" as quickly as possible for any changes in outlook, etc.

For the White Sox- they should QUICKLY adjust to a new outlook (Tigers are not as good as projected, and the White Sox are better than expected)- so QUICKLY adjust your pricing, marketing and promotion game plan to capitalize.

Sitting back and pointing the finger at the fans in this economy is completely counterproductive. This is a TREMENDOUS opportunity for the White Sox- the Cubs look to be down for this year and at least a few more years as they commit to rebuilding- for once- they should aggressively take action to capitalize on the situation.

hawkjt
05-29-2012, 09:26 AM
Last post from me on this whole what comes first attendance or winning. Took a look at the 2004 season. If you remember nobody expected much from this team, but Loaiza and Buehrle got off to great starts and Shingo time was all the rage. Despite being in first around Memorial Day, crowds were running around 14,000 or 15,000. It wasn't until late June that crowds of 30,000+ became common. The walk up crowd surprise game I remember was July 10th. It took until nearly the fourth inning until the crowd of 37,000 got in the door. Classic Burls game, it was over in about two hours and the fireworks show started while it was still light out.

Anyway, maybe we're all (including me) too early on this attendance hand wringing. History shows it builds slow. People will come Ray, people will most definitely come.


I agree. I really think that many casual Sox fans simply did not build attending Sox games into their plans for the spring,in what looked to be a rebuilding season. The timing of this hot streak is good,with the advent of true summer, I think the next home stand will start showing better attendance. I agree that cost is part of the issue,but lets face it, Sunday was 1 dollar tickets for Kids Day,and it was a small crowd....1 dollar tickets? C'mon. It was a holiday weekend,and I think fans had made other plans,but it will pick up now.

I really think those fans on here who are predisposed to dislike Kenny for trades he has made, or anyone of a hundred different reasons, take offense at anything he says....these comments are not offensive to anyone who does not bear a grudge. He simply states the obvious.

He cannot win,really. Fans say that Sox fans do not come out unless they win,so he must win now!...but other fans hate that approach and want him to look long term...what should he do? Every fricking GM in the history of baseball has made big mistakes..it is an occupational hazard.

Lip Man 1
05-29-2012, 09:26 AM
Tom:

History has shown that "taking on" the Cubs simply isn't done by this organization. That is not their philosophy and hasn't been since day one.

Lip

rdivaldi
05-29-2012, 09:56 AM
WE give up too much.

Who have we given up? Hudson, Gonzalez, and? There has been so much pissing and moaning over the past 10 years about prospects, but we've never given up much of consequence. Gonzalez took almost 3 years to figure it out on the major league level and Hudson is struggling with shoulder issues this year.

Domeshot17
05-29-2012, 10:05 AM
Soooooo, the Sox cannot be credited for drafting a good player, but can most definitely be blamed for drafting a bad one. Sometimes Domeshot you need to stop trying to have your cake and eat it too. Everyone knows that you don't like the White Sox farm system or their drafts, but you wander into the ridiculous zone a bit too much.

We got insanely lucky with Sale. He was never supposed to be there at our pick. This has been well documented. We made the right choice to not pass on him, but the fact he was there when we got him was insane chance.

I have actually credited Kenny too, as he convinced Sale to sign but letting him get to the big leagues quickly. It was a bold but smart move. I also credit them for eventually figuring out the kid needs to be a starting pitcher.

I don't think I am wrong for not liking the White Sox drafts, we have by far the worst farm in all of baseball.

TaylorStSox
05-29-2012, 10:07 AM
We got insanely lucky with Sale. He was never supposed to be there at our pick. This has been well documented. We made the right choice to not pass on him, but the fact he was there when we got him was insane chance.

I have actually credited Kenny too, as he convinced Sale to sign but letting him get to the big leagues quickly. It was a bold but smart move. I also credit them for eventually figuring out the kid needs to be a starting pitcher.

I don't think I am wrong for not liking the White Sox drafts, we have by far the worst farm in all of baseball.
I read somewhere that the Sox have the highest WAR in baseball from the 08-10 drafts.

Tragg
05-29-2012, 10:07 AM
2005 would not have happened without two pretty big trades happening in 2004. I'm not saying other moves weren't crucial, but Contreras and Garcia made up 40% of the starting rotation, and even if they weren't "blockbusters," they still were big when they were made.
Contreras was your veteran for my veteran. That's the kind of trade that would work well now.
Garcia was a trade of prospects for veteran. It did work out well, but there was some luck involved - getting AJ off of the scrap heap the next offseason because Ben Davis was awful. Without that, that trade creates a bigger hole than it covered. The lack of development of Jeremy Reed also made the trade nice... and we also had a bevy of young, promising minor league outfielders at the time.

Domeshot17
05-29-2012, 10:11 AM
I read somewhere that the Sox have the highest WAR in baseball from the 08-10 drafts.

Thats a tough stat, because they rushed a lot of guys to the bigs. I don't know if you are correct or not, taking your word for it, but you can't really look at those drafts and see a lot of talent produced outside Sale and I think Reed was in there as well. Sale pretty much dominates that stat for us, as does a run by Beckham as a Rookie that he has not come close to replicating.

TomBradley72
05-29-2012, 10:15 AM
Tom:

History has shown that "taking on" the Cubs simply isn't done by this oreganization. That is not their philosophy and hasn't been since day one.

Lip

I know- they have missed several windows of opportunity during the Reinhorn era- right now- it's sitting there for the taking-

TaylorStSox
05-29-2012, 10:16 AM
Thats a tough stat, because they rushed a lot of guys to the bigs. I don't know if you are correct or not, taking your word for it, but you can't really look at those drafts and see a lot of talent produced outside Sale and I think Reed was in there as well. Sale pretty much dominates that stat for us, as does a run by Beckham as a Rookie that he has not come close to replicating.
Sure, then you have to factor in the Strasburg injury and Mitchell's injury. The Nats will pass that up quickly, but they were unbelievably lucky by landing the #1 pick when the two biggest prospects in baseball history were on the board. I guess the point is that since the Sox have altered their draft strategy (taking more risks with high upside/impact players) their drafts have looked much better.

Noneck
05-29-2012, 10:19 AM
This is a TREMENDOUS opportunity for the White Sox- the Cubs look to be down for this year and at least a few more years as they commit to rebuilding- for once- they should aggressively take action to capitalize on the situation.

Yea they should, just like they should have after the championship. But that may entail using previously earned money and maybe even show some red for a couple years. And as Lip said they have never wanted to compete with the cubs.

This city was a Sox city but never will be under this ownership.

Domeshot17
05-29-2012, 10:27 AM
Sure, then you have to factor in the Strasburg injury and Mitchell's injury. The Nats will pass that up quickly, but they were unbelievably lucky by landing the #1 pick when the two biggest prospects in baseball history were on the board. I guess the point is that since the Sox have altered their draft strategy (taking more risks with high upside/impact players) their drafts have looked much better.

I am excited to see this draft for the White Sox because with the new rules, the way they draft will be less of an issue.

What has always upset me about the Sox drafts is not being willing to spend at all. I mean in all seriousness, there is NO REASON we should ever be consistently bottom 4 of spending in the draft. The safe play route has led to high floor bust after bust and led to the Poreda, Phlegaly, the kid from Texas, Broadway etc.

I did not hate the Mitchell pick, I liked a few other guys more at the time, but it was not a BAD pick so to say. I would not have taken Gordon, but honestly the guy I liked a lot has been equally as bad (Smoak). But I think a big thing for the Sox is improving how they draft in the sandwich rounds and then rounds 2 and 3. Those rounds consistently produce top flight talent, but we fail to capitalize on it.

It will be interesting to see with the new spending rules if the Sox are able to do a little better.

FoulTerritory
05-29-2012, 11:15 AM
I think both the marketing department and the fans are a bit gun-shy after last year. The whole all-in thing really blew up in their faces and created bad publicity.
This year, we were all resigned to this team not being that good, but now with the way they are playing, people might come out to the games, especially with schools finishing their years.

Its amazing to me that Brooks let that "all-in" campaign happen. Is he completely unaware of what happened the last time the Sox tried to brag about themselves in their marketing campaign . . . 2001's "It's time." As soon as I saw "All-in," I thought, oh boy, this again. And just like "It's time," we were terrible and, thus, the commercials were ridiculous.

asindc
05-29-2012, 11:56 AM
Who have we given up? Hudson, Gonzalez, and? There has been so much pissing and moaning over the past 10 years about prospects, but we've never given up much of consequence. Gonzalez took almost 3 years to figure it out on the major league level and Hudson is struggling with shoulder issues this year.

Excellent point. I think some people forget that some of the prospects that you will trade will actually get much better, even if it takes several years. That "several years" is something most GMs look at when trying to determine if to keep a prospect or not. Philly traded for Gio and then traded him away. They also traded Gavin before he became a somewhat reliable starter. No one would accuse Philly of being a poorly-run franchise (Howard's massive extension aside), but yet they have traded young for old and given up on prospects too soon. It happens with every organization.

As for the 'blame' meme, it is oh so tired and lame, and completely inaccurate. KW is saying pretty much the same thing many other organizations say over time. He is far from the only one who says his ability to improve the team is tied to possible increased revenue. Furthermore, anyone who 'blames' KW for saying it is blaming the wrong person. I imagine JR is not upset at all with KW's comments on the issue.

Paulwny
05-29-2012, 12:02 PM
I'm assuming that when KW mentions attendance he actually means $$$ from attendance. Lower ticket prices may increase attendance, but it may not increase the bottom line.
Tha Sox pay rent to the state based on ticket revenue and attendance. Since 2008, when attendance is above 1.9 million, $3 to $7 per ticket is paid to the state. JR's bean counters will determine, based on their experience and numbers crunching, whether the bottom line for JR will be higher or lower if attendance is slightly above or below 1.9 million.
The number crunchers will determine the future price of tickets.

JB98
05-29-2012, 12:46 PM
The White Sox were < .500 as recently as a week or so ago- so I'd really wish KW would find a way to keep his mouth shut about attendance, etc.- one reason the fan base is hesitant to "commit" to this team and pay the ridiculous "dynamic" prices is that the White Sox management (KW & JR) did not show ANY commitment to this team either- they let Buehrle go, traded Santos for a AA prospect, and came up with an inspiring marketing theme of "Appreciate the Game"- in my business we try to "adjust" as quickly as possible for any changes in outlook, etc.

For the White Sox- they should QUICKLY adjust to a new outlook (Tigers are not as good as projected, and the White Sox are better than expected)- so QUICKLY adjust your pricing, marketing and promotion game plan to capitalize.

Sitting back and pointing the finger at the fans in this economy is completely counterproductive. This is a TREMENDOUS opportunity for the White Sox- the Cubs look to be down for this year and at least a few more years as they commit to rebuilding- for once- they should aggressively take action to capitalize on the situation.

Well stated. The Cubs absolutely ****ing suck, and there is no end in sight to the losing on the North Side. The Bulls and Blackhawks bowed out of the playoffs early, and NFL training camps don't start for another two months.

The door is wide open for the White Sox to grab the city's attention RIGHT NOW.

Tragg
05-29-2012, 01:10 PM
Who have we given up? Hudson, Gonzalez, and? There has been so much pissing and moaning over the past 10 years about prospects, but we've never given up much of consequence. Gonzalez took almost 3 years to figure it out on the major league level and Hudson is struggling with shoulder issues this year.

That many didn't work out doesn't mean we didn't give up too much, compared to other teams. For a team in last and dumping salary, we didn't have to give up that much for a pitcher that was highly paid having an awful year.
Three years isn't that long of a return for a prospect.
Swisher 1 - all 3 prospects were considered legit prospects, and all are currently productive MLB players and one just signed a huge contract.
Swisher 2 - none of the prospects we received were legit prospects, and only Betemit is in MLB, and a utility infielder at that.
Our return on small deals, waiver signings is much higher than on these trades.

Hitmen77
05-29-2012, 01:26 PM
This attendance/money-for-players message from KW has unfortunately almost become an annual tradition for Sox fans. This message for Sox management is old, tired, and doesn't help bring fans to the park. Surely they know that you don't erase 5 years of eroding attendance with a 2 week hot streak.

There have been lots of good replies on this thread. This is a complicated issue. I don't think this is all KW's fault. He's made some great deals for us. But, I think the organization's failure to produce much home-grown talent has somewhat boxed them into a corner in the whole payroll/attendance issue. Maybe this will change with the new amateur draft rules.

I think we'll see better crowds if the Sox keep winning. But it's pure fantasy to think that they'll suddenly be drawing 35k a night right away. The question is, how big of an attendance bump are KW and JR realistically looking for?

Well stated. The Cubs absolutely ****ing suck, and there is no end in sight to the losing on the North Side. The Bulls and Blackhawks bowed out of the playoffs early, and NFL training camps don't start for another two months.

The door is wide open for the White Sox to grab the city's attention RIGHT NOW.

IMO, the Sox have had a golden opportunity to do this ever since 2005 put this team back on the map in Chicago. They've squandered that opportunity with mostly lackluster seasons (except 2008) ever since they entered July 2006 on pace to win ~100 games.

The Cubs are coming off two straight 5th place seasons and are solidly dead last this year. This has been the Sox's chance to grab the city's attention going on 3 years now.

pudge
05-29-2012, 02:10 PM
Contreras was your veteran for my veteran. That's the kind of trade that would work well now.
Garcia was a trade of prospects for veteran. It did work out well, but there was some luck involved - getting AJ off of the scrap heap the next offseason because Ben Davis was awful. Without that, that trade creates a bigger hole than it covered. The lack of development of Jeremy Reed also made the trade nice... and we also had a bevy of young, promising minor league outfielders at the time.

Those moves were brilliant, but also lighting in a bottle - they don't come around very often. Contreras was a stud who just wasn't fitting in New York. Freddy was a stud who was about to become a FA, but the connection to Ozzie let Kenny feel he could keep him around. If you can swap Floyd for a long term vet ala Contreras, I can see it making sense. I wouldn't doubt the Sox had AJ in mind when they made that deal for Freddy. I'm sure KW mapped out what he was looking for in 2005 and figured they could make a run at AJ while dumping Olivo. It was gutsy to get rid of Reed, but again, KW probably looked at the OF and figured they didn't need him in the mix.

TDog
05-29-2012, 02:57 PM
Thats a tough stat, because they rushed a lot of guys to the bigs. I don't know if you are correct or not, taking your word for it, but you can't really look at those drafts and see a lot of talent produced outside Sale and I think Reed was in there as well. Sale pretty much dominates that stat for us, as does a run by Beckham as a Rookie that he has not come close to replicating.

From the 2008 draft, Gordon Beckham is an excellent major league second baseman who is developing offensively at the major league level. He was chosen behind Buster Posey, Eric Hosmer and Yonder Alonso, who have been much stronger offensively. Posey was a big part of a World Series championship run in his rookie season. Without him, I don't think the Giants would have made the postseason. But draft analysis, especially analysis that only considers the first round, is confusing, open to many interpretations and tends to make just about everyone look bad.

The No. 1 overall pick in 2008, by Tampa Bay, was Tim Beckham.

Tim Beckham, considered the top high school prospect in the nation with the highest ceiling in the draft, may eventually fulfill his promise, as substantial as it was, but he hasn't made it to the majors and was hitting .204 this season in the International League when he was suspended for 50 games for his second drug-abuse violation. If Tim Beckham does fulfill his promise, it may well be in a different organization.

The White Sox have (had with Danks disabled) four first-round draft picks in their starting rotation. Only one was drafted by the White Sox. Their top hitter was a first-round draft pick of the Dodgers. Their right fielder was a first-round pick of the Blue Jays. I read that through the history of the draft, first-round draft picks were more likely to have success with organizations other than the organization that drafted them. That is why it was considered so noteworthy when the White Sox had Thomas, Ventura, Fernandez and McDowell leading the team in the early 1990s. Such draft success is rare, and many consider luck to be a huge factor.

Lest we forget that probably the most successful first round draft pick (excluding Paul Konerko) currently playing languished in the minors and was on the restricted list for drug violations before the Cubs claimed him in the Rule 5 draft. They sold him to a team that would trade him.

Josh Hamilton was the first overall pick of the 1999 draft, by Tampa Bay.

Domeshot17
05-29-2012, 03:16 PM
From the 2008 draft, Gordon Beckham is an excellent major league second baseman who is developing offensively at the major league level. He was chosen behind Buster Posey, Eric Hosmer and Yonder Alonso, who have been much stronger offensively. Posey was a big part of a World Series championship run in his rookie season. Without him, I don't think the Giants would have made the postseason. But draft analysis, especially analysis that only considers the first round, is confusing, open to many interpretations and tends to make just about everyone look bad.

The No. 1 overall pick in 2008, by Tampa Bay, was Tim Beckham.

Tim Beckham, considered the top high school prospect in the nation with the highest ceiling in the draft, may eventually fulfill his promise, as substantial as it was, but he hasn't made it to the majors and was hitting .204 this season in the International League when he was suspended for 50 games for his second drug-abuse violation. If Tim Beckham does fulfill his promise, it may well be in a different organization.

The White Sox have (had with Danks disabled) four first-round draft picks in their starting rotation. Only one was drafted by the White Sox. Their top hitter was a first-round draft pick of the Dodgers. Their right fielder was a first-round pick of the Blue Jays. I read that through the history of the draft, first-round draft picks were more likely to have success with organizations other than the organization that drafted them. That is why it was considered so noteworthy when the White Sox had Thomas, Ventura, Fernandez and McDowell leading the team in the early 1990s. Such draft success is rare, and many consider luck to be a huge factor.

Lest we forget that probably the most successful first round draft pick (excluding Paul Konerko) currently playing languished in the minors and was on the restricted list for drug violations before the Cubs claimed him in the Rule 5 draft. They sold him to a team that would trade him.

Josh Hamilton was the first overall pick of the 1999 draft, by Tampa Bay.

I don't disagree with most of what you have said, but I would hardly say Beckham is excellent. He is an excellent defender (that may be what you meant) but offensively has been challenged.

Now, that said, Gordon has looked alright over the last month. If he can do what he is doing now, .260 average and a .760 OPS, and keep it up with the glove, we can live with him being a league average offensive player and an above average defender.

Part of the problem with Gordon was the bar was set too high. People here claimed he was Robinson Cano good (and someone even claimed he was going to be Derek Jeter good). If the guy can become, say, Howie Kendrick with the Bat, and give us a .260-.270 average, 30 doubles, a .750 OPS, then he could be a keeper.

My comment you qouted was in reference to the Sox leading in WAR out of the draft. That itself is a fairly misleading stat because our first rounders have been sent to the big leagues quicker than most. Posey missed a season's worth of WAR last year, Yonder is just now breaking into the bigs etc.

rdivaldi
05-29-2012, 04:06 PM
That many didn't work out doesn't mean we didn't give up too much, compared to other teams.

Compared to who? I see teams giving up multiple prospects all the time. The Swisher trade(s) is a pretty isolated event.

Three years isn't that long of a return for a prospect.

3 years in the majors plus 4 years in the minors. Gio started in our farm system in 2004 and didn't break out until 2010. Even then, it was hard to decipher whether or not he was a product of a spacious home field.

Swisher 1 - all 3 prospects were considered legit prospects, and all are currently productive MLB players and one just signed a huge contract.

But none of those guys were considered anywhere near "sure things" at the time. Gonzalez continually struggled with his control, Sweeney did not (and still does not) show any pop and De Los Santos was a one year wonder. To be honest, I liked all three of these guys when they were in our system, but I would only take Gonzalez on our current roster in 2012.

Swisher 2 - none of the prospects we received were legit prospects, and only Betemit is in MLB, and a utility infielder at that.

Marquez was considered a B prospect, but we sold really low in this case and did not get the proper compensation for a major league outfielder.

rdivaldi
05-29-2012, 04:15 PM
We got insanely lucky with Sale. He was never supposed to be there at our pick. This has been well documented. We made the right choice to not pass on him, but the fact he was there when we got him was insane chance.

But you can't hold that against the front office and it's not like they had to select him. Eleven other teams after the Nationals selected Harper passed on Sale due to his skinny frame or other concerns. Why do the Sox get dinged for selecting him because the others did not? Do they get credit for the Addison Reed pick in the third round that year? Or do they get dinged because they were lucky that the other teams didn't think he could make it as a starter?

The front office deserves plenty of criticism for some horrible drafts over the past couple of years, but they do deserve credit for some good picks that are paying dividends this year.

Domeshot17
05-29-2012, 04:22 PM
But you can't hold that against the front office and it's not like they had to select him. Eleven other teams after the Nationals selected Harper passed on Sale due to his skinny frame or other concerns. Why do the Sox get dinged for selecting him because the others did not? Do they get credit for the Addison Reed pick in the third round that year? Or do they get dinged because they were lucky that the other teams didn't think he could make it as a starter?

The front office deserves plenty of criticism for some horrible drafts over the past couple of years, but they do deserve credit for some good picks that are paying dividends this year.

I am not disagreeing with you here at all. I was simply saying, the fact Sale fell to us when he did was crazy. Much like the Bulls and Derrick Rose. We got insanely lucky to get him. We also did not do something and pass on the player. It is really 2 fold, we got extremely lucky to be in the position to take him, and then, we did take him.

That said, had Sale not fallen, it is tough to honestly believe we would have selected someone who is making an impact right now. The tough thing about a track record is that until you have one, you don't have one.

TDog
05-29-2012, 06:10 PM
I don't disagree with most of what you have said, but I would hardly say Beckham is excellent. He is an excellent defender (that may be what you meant) but offensively has been challenged.

Now, that said, Gordon has looked alright over the last month. If he can do what he is doing now, .260 average and a .760 OPS, and keep it up with the glove, we can live with him being a league average offensive player and an above average defender.

Part of the problem with Gordon was the bar was set too high. People here claimed he was Robinson Cano good (and someone even claimed he was going to be Derek Jeter good). If the guy can become, say, Howie Kendrick with the Bat, and give us a .260-.270 average, 30 doubles, a .750 OPS, then he could be a keeper.

My comment you qouted was in reference to the Sox leading in WAR out of the draft. That itself is a fairly misleading stat because our first rounders have been sent to the big leagues quicker than most. Posey missed a season's worth of WAR last year, Yonder is just now breaking into the bigs etc.

We're basically in agreement,. I was referring to Beckham's defense. I don't think he'll be a bad hitter, though. He was rushed to the majors and essentially didn't hit from the time Guillen moved him to the second spot in the order through last season through pretty much this April. But I think he will develop into a being a pretty good hitter.

Early on this year, when many were expecting Detroit to run away with the division and lamenting Beckham wasn't a legitimate major leaguer, I wrote that I believed Beckham would be starting at second base for the Tigers. I don't think anyone agreed with me, but Ryan Raburn, the Tigers' regular second baseman is hitting .146.

rdivaldi
05-30-2012, 09:48 AM
I am not disagreeing with you here at all. I was simply saying, the fact Sale fell to us when he did was crazy. Much like the Bulls and Derrick Rose. We got insanely lucky to get him. We also did not do something and pass on the player. It is really 2 fold, we got extremely lucky to be in the position to take him, and then, we did take him.

That said, had Sale not fallen, it is tough to honestly believe we would have selected someone who is making an impact right now. The tough thing about a track record is that until you have one, you don't have one.

Okay, fair enough. In general, I've been much happier with our higher round draft picks over the past five years, going after higher ceiling players. Sure there will be some busts, but there may be some stars mixed in.

MisterB
05-30-2012, 12:42 PM
Nobody's asking for this. We have a talented young core. By trading the veterans, ideally, you strengthen that core. The Sox aren't like The Pirates or Royals. They can afford to resign their own. Nobody wants a perpetual prospect loop.

3 months ago Peavy and Rios were a "sunk cost." Now, you might not only be able to dump them, you can get actual talent.

The bolded statement is very debatable. Sale, DeAza and Viciedo are performing well (so far). Reed and Jones are too early to tell. Beckham, Flowers and Morel haven't performed at all. Even Danks and Floyd are iffy right now.

I think you are seriously overestimating what we'd get by trading all our veterans. The hottest commodity in baseball nowadays are good, young, cheap players, and no one is going to give them up for questionable veterans like Peavy, Rios and Dunn. You might get something for Konerko or Thornton, but the net loss in talent combined with the fan outrage at giving up on a potentially good season would harm the Sox for years to come.

JB98
05-30-2012, 01:10 PM
The bolded statement is very debatable. Sale, DeAza and Viciedo are performing well (so far). Reed and Jones are too early to tell. Beckham, Flowers and Morel haven't performed at all. Even Danks and Floyd are iffy right now.

I think you are seriously overestimating what we'd get by trading all our veterans. The hottest commodity in baseball nowadays are good, young, cheap players, and no one is going to give them up for questionable veterans like Peavy, Rios and Dunn. You might get something for Konerko or Thornton, but the net loss in talent combined with the fan outrage at giving up on a potentially good season would harm the Sox for years to come.

I agree with you and I think a lot of fans fall into the trap of thinking the veterans on the roster are going to fetch a bounty of great young talent in a trade. If you look at what has happened around MLB the last four or five years, you'll see the market has changed. You don't see as many trades where veterans are being moved for multiple prospects. For better or for worse, teams are hoarding prospects, maybe even overvaluing their prospects. It's been more of a buyer's market than a seller's market for quite some time now.

Anyone who thinks we are going to trade Peavy in July for three or four players is in for a rude awakening, I dare say. No one is going to give up a bunch of prospects for two or three months of oft-injured Jake. IMO, Peavy (and other veterans on this club) are going to be more valuable to the Sox on the field in the second half than they would be in a trade.

Golden Sox
06-02-2012, 09:03 AM
This 2012 season has easily been the most pleasant surprise in my lifetime. Nobody thought this White Sox team would be this good. If this success continues the rest of the season and they get into the playoffs and they have some success in the playoffs, do you think the White Sox will raise their ticket prices next year?

dickallen15
06-02-2012, 09:26 AM
This 2012 season has easily been the most pleasant surprise in my lifetime. Nobody thought this White Sox team would be this good. If this success continues the rest of the season and they get into the playoffs and they have some success in the playoffs, do you think the White Sox will raise their ticket prices next year?

Not if you buy them early. If you wait Dynamic Pricing kicks in. That's where they jack up the prices enough to keep people away so the media will feel sorry for them and encourage White Sox fans to buy baseball tickets, not pay their mortgages.