PDA

View Full Version : I Like This Team


AnkleSox
05-26-2012, 04:23 AM
I haven't been able to say that about the White Sox since about 2008. They could crash and end up in the cellar but they could also put on a good run. The talent and passion that hasn't been there for years is back with Ventura, a revitalized Dunn, an always solid (and early MVP candidate) Konerko, and a passionate newcomer in Hudson.

I have a losing record in the 6 games I've gone to this year, but each game they've shown some heart and made it enjoyable. They may not win the World Series but I think this is a year that White Sox fans should enjoy. The division is a joke but with the pitching the Sox have, as long as it keeps up (and please cut Ohman) I don't think a deep playoff run is out of the question.

Anyone with me?

TomBradley72
05-26-2012, 05:37 AM
+1

They place solid defense and good fundamental baseball and they are playing with a lot of energy and seem to be a very close knit group- an interesting blend of veterans and youth- if Alexei warms up and Beckham could get to at least .240-.250- it's a good line up 1-9.

Hudson looks like a very nice add to the puzzle- switch hitter, taking pitches, drawing walks, makes contact- good balance with all the free swingers.

pudge
05-26-2012, 05:40 AM
I don't think a deep playoff run is out of the question.

Anyone with me?

Not with you. Enjoy the season. With the extra wild card, no reason they can't contend for a playoff spot. But "deep playoff run"... I'd hold off on that assessment.

Frater Perdurabo
05-26-2012, 08:37 AM
Small sample size, but Quintana might make either Thornton or Ohman expendable, and those two arguably have been our worst relievers, and yet paradoxically as veterans might be most in demand by teams with bullpen holes. I could see the Sox dealing one or both for prospects, keeping Quintana in the pen in long relief, and being better for it.

Hudson might be the kind of guy who just "fits" here.

Detroit is a sleeping giant with their juggernaut offense, but their leaky infield defense has combined with their pitching struggles to cause them problems - they are kind of like the 2001-2003 White Sox.

Pitching, defense, crisp fundamentals and timely hitting are the long-term recipe for success, but it's also nice to slug the opposition.

Zisk77
05-26-2012, 09:16 AM
Small sample size, but Quintana might make either Thornton or Ohman expendable, and those two arguably have been our worst relievers, and yet paradoxically as veterans might be most in demand by teams with bullpen holes. I could see the Sox dealing one or both for prospects, keeping Quintana in the pen in long relief, and being better for it.

Hudson might be the kind of guy who just "fits" here.

Detroit is a sleeping giant with their juggernaut offense, but their leaky infield defense has combined with their pitching struggles to cause them problems - they are kind of like the 2001-2003 White Sox.

Pitching, defense, crisp fundamentals and timely hitting are the long-term recipe for success, but it's also nice to slug the opposition.


i think this ultimately dooms them (maybe not in the division, but in the playoffs). Its not just leaky, besides Jackson there is no range and they play in a huge ball park. They give up a lot of hits that should be outs.

TomBradley72
05-26-2012, 09:28 AM
They've moved up to 7th in team runs scored in the AL- they were down around 10th-11th just a week or two ago.

They are 4th in team fielding percentage with only 20 errors (Detroit has 32- 60% more)- and they lead the league in catching opponents trying to steal- LEAD THE LEAGUE- after what we've seen the past few years-

Golden Sox
05-26-2012, 09:40 AM
I hate to keep repeating myself but the White Sox are coming!. Tra la, Tra la!.

Frater Perdurabo
05-26-2012, 10:10 AM
i think this ultimately dooms them (maybe not in the division, but in the playoffs). Its not just leaky, besides Jackson there is no range and they play in a huge ball park. They give up a lot of hits that should be outs.

Verlander is good enough to overcome poor fielding, but already it's hurting the rest of their rotation and bullpen.

Frater Perdurabo
05-26-2012, 10:15 AM
They've moved up to 7th in team runs scored in the AL- they were down around 10th-11th just a week or two ago.

They are 4th in team fielding percentage with only 20 errors (Detroit has 32- 60% more)- and they lead the league in catching opponents trying to steal- LEAD THE LEAGUE- after what we've seen the past few years-

I don't know who was responsible for the Sox not preventing stolen bases previously, but it is clear that Ventura and Parent have made it a priority, whereas Ozzie and Cora did not. This is especially damning considering that we actually lost Buehrle, who was one of the best pitchers in the majors at picking off runners.

hawkjt
05-26-2012, 10:18 AM
Two weeks ago, I was discouraged at the offensive talent. Way too many strikeouts...and low average hitters. The defense has been good all year,and pretty good last year also. The fundamentals have been improved this year...hitting the cut-off men,throwing out runners from the outfield, and a huge improvement in throwing out base-stealers..leading the league at 50%.
The pitching has been pretty solid all year also.
The offense has been the main problem.
Now,predictably,as warm weather has arrived,so has the long ball.
Big Frank mentioned some credit should go to Jeff Mantos,who evidently was a very good power hitter in his day, for the hitting success.
Who knows?
I do know that in the last 8 games,the Sox have turned into the new version of the SouthSide Hitmen....and that is turn back the clock ole fashioned fun at the ole ballyard. Keep mashing,Sox.
Tank's homer to right center last nite is a Big Hurt style homer..which is fun. When the Big Hurt hit, everything at the park stopped,to watch...Tank could be a little like that if he keeps this roll going...

Noneck
05-26-2012, 10:24 AM
This team is as good as its starting pitching will take them. Peavy and Sale have been unconscious, keeping up that pace will be difficult. The rest of the staff is, What you see is what you get.

FielderJones
05-26-2012, 10:31 AM
I do know that in the last 8 games,the Sox have turned into the new version of the SouthSide Hitmen....and that is turn back the clock ole fashioned fun at the ole ballyard. Keep mashing,Sox.

South Side Hitmen with pitching. If the guys keep up the mashing and the timely hitting with RISP, this could be a fun summer and the attendance will take care of itself.

sox1970
05-26-2012, 10:37 AM
This team is as good as its starting pitching will take them. Peavy and Sale have been unconscious, keeping up that pace will be difficult. The rest of the staff is, What you see is what you get.

Agree about the pitching. If Humber continues to struggle, then Quintana may force a decision. And hopefully Danks comes back healthy and can be a solid 3-starter. Floyd is a .500 pitcher no matter how much talent he has.

It's been fun to see Dunn kill it. "Paulie Fine Wine" is incredible. Viciedo is coming on after a brutal start. Hudson has been a nice pick up. And probably the most under the radar thing going on with the White Sox is Alejandro De Aza. He has proven to be better than a 4A player. He can play.

They took too long making Reed the closer, but if Thornton can get his act together, this bullpen is just as good as Cleveland's. This team can win the division if they get/stay healthy.

russ99
05-26-2012, 10:49 AM
Two weeks ago, I was discouraged at the offensive talent. Way too many strikeouts...and low average hitters. The defense has been good all year,and pretty good last year also. The fundamentals have been improved this year...hitting the cut-off men,throwing out runners from the outfield, and a huge improvement in throwing out base-stealers..leading the league at 50%.
The pitching has been pretty solid all year also.
The offense has been the main problem.
Now,predictably,as warm weather has arrived,so has the long ball.
Big Frank mentioned some credit should go to Jeff Mantos,who evidently was a very good power hitter in his day, for the hitting success.
Who knows?
I do know that in the last 8 games,the Sox have turned into the new version of the SouthSide Hitmen....and that is turn back the clock ole fashioned fun at the ole ballyard. Keep mashing,Sox.
Tank's homer to right center last nite is a Big Hurt style homer..which is fun. When the Big Hurt hit, everything at the park stopped,to watch...Tank could be a little like that if he keeps this roll going...

The big question is if they can score enough runs when the homers dry up.

You can't expect these guys to hit 3-4 homers a night, even in the short term, it's not realistic.

That we are scoring at times without the big homer is encouraging.

Frater Perdurabo
05-26-2012, 10:54 AM
If Peavy and Sale keep pitching like #1/2 starters, this rotation can succeed with Danks as a 3, Floyd as a 4 and Humber as a 5.

Chez
05-26-2012, 11:07 AM
This team is as good as its starting pitching will take them. Peavy and Sale have been unconscious, keeping up that pace will be difficult. The rest of the staff is, What you see is what you get.

Completely agree. The team with the best starting pitching usually wins over the long haul. Like most, my expectations coming into the season were as low as they have ever been. I've been pleasantly surprised and hope the Sox are playing meaningful games come September.

johnny bench
05-26-2012, 01:37 PM
I like this team too. I especially appreciate Ventura's impact. He doesn't scream at umpires or yell in the dugout, yet it's clear that he in completely in charge of this team. I also like that his focus is always on the field not looking around in the stands. I'll also give a credit to Joe McEwing for helping to instill a more aggressive approach on the base paths.

kevingrt
05-26-2012, 01:50 PM
I like this team too. I especially appreciate Ventura's impact. He doesn't scream at umpires or yell in the dugout, yet it's clear that he in completely in charge of this team. I also like that his focus is always on the field not looking around in the stands. I'll also give a credit to Joe McEwing for helping to instill a more aggressive approach on the base paths.

Except for that one Chris Sale incident when no one had any clue what was going on.

Or at least that's the way it was portrayed through the media.

I do love Robin as the Sox manager though.

doublem23
05-26-2012, 01:53 PM
Thing that makes me most happy about this team right now is that I would hope it's clear to everyone that the Sox don't need a complete tear down and rebuild. I really do not have the patience to try and sit through the bull**** they're doing on the North Side.

I still kind of wary about how good this 2012 team is, but I do think the foundation is there for them to be pretty competitive sooner than most people think.

spawn
05-26-2012, 02:08 PM
Thing that makes me most happy about this team right now is that I would hope it's clear to everyone that the Sox don't need a complete tear down and rebuild. I really do not have the patience to try and sit through the bull**** they're doing on the North Side.

I still kind of wary about how good this 2012 team is, but I do think the foundation is there for them to be pretty competitive sooner than most people think.
Agree 100%. I actually enjoy watching this team. the last couple of seasons, there was just no heart. It was like they were mailing it in, like they were taking their cue from the manager. They may end up under .500 by the end of the season, but at least there seems to be some fight in them.

Noneck
05-26-2012, 02:29 PM
Thing that makes me most happy about this team right now is that I would hope it's clear to everyone that the Sox don't need a complete tear down and rebuild.

That is as the team stands now. That will change next year and probably later this year. Think about this team just without Peavy and AJ. Remember that 2nd and 3rd are black holes with no one down the line to replace them. Then think about a relief staff without Crain and Thornton. A total rebuild may be the only choice. Enjoy this season as long as it lasts.

AnkleSox
05-26-2012, 02:34 PM
Not with you. Enjoy the season. With the extra wild card, no reason they can't contend for a playoff spot. But "deep playoff run"... I'd hold off on that assessment.

I was maybe a little too optimistic after a few too many kool-aids at the game, so I do kind of agree with you. My main point is that this is a fun team to watch and even with the torrid summer they had in 2010 I think it's just all around one of the more likable Sox teams in a long time.

thomas35forever
05-26-2012, 02:41 PM
This season has probably exceeded most people's expectations to this point. That said, I won't call them a contender just yet. How many teams have gotten off to decent starts only to have the bottom fall out later in the season? Let's see where they are at the All-Star break. After that, it might be time to start thinking playoffs.

guillensdisciple
05-26-2012, 02:56 PM
I like it but I am erring on the side of caution. Not because I worry about this team and their capabilities but because Chicago has lost their main players in all the major sports when they were ready to succeed. Cutler, rose, Hossa. Something tells me Paulie might have an issue too, it seems like that's how the world works this way.

If it doesn't, I can see this team making the playoffs.

doublem23
05-26-2012, 02:56 PM
That is as the team stands now. That will change next year and probably later this year. Think about this team just without Peavy and AJ. Remember that 2nd and 3rd are black holes with no one down the line to replace them. Then think about a relief staff without Crain and Thornton. A total rebuild may be the only choice. Enjoy this season as long as it lasts.

Well plenty of people opined that the Sox were going to completely meltdown this year without Buehrle, Quentin, or Santos so we'll see.

I think there's more talent on this team than people give them credit, especially if they can start tapping into Beckham and Viciedo's vast unrealized potential.

spawn
05-26-2012, 03:07 PM
That is as the team stands now. That will change next year and probably later this year. Think about this team just without Peavy and AJ. Remember that 2nd and 3rd are black holes with no one down the line to replace them. Then think about a relief staff without Crain and Thornton. A total rebuild may be the only choice. Enjoy this season as long as it lasts.
Most people here thought the Sox would be lucky to get anything out of Peavy, and quite a few posters here wanted AJ gone. Crain hasn't been much of an impact so far this season as he was hurt, and Thornton hasn't exactly been the most reliable pitcher out of the bullpen this season either. I can only think right now how well this theam would be doing if Danks was pitching up to a half of his potential. I agree with Dub...there IS more talent on this team than we realized.

LITTLE NELL
05-26-2012, 03:22 PM
I thought all along and mentioned in earlier threads that this team had the potential to contend. The only thing is that if we still had Buerhle I would feel a lot better. You can never have enough pitching. Right now Danks is on the DL, we are holding our breath every time Peavy and Sale pitch praying that they don't break down. Floyd will hold up but be either a little over or under .500 and Humber is nothing more than a #5 starter if that.

TomBradley72
05-26-2012, 03:30 PM
I thought all along and mentioned in earlier threads that this team had the potential to contend. The only thing is that if we still had Buerhle I would feel a lot better. You can never have enough pitching. Right now Danks is on the DL, we are holding our breath every time Peavy and Sale pitch praying that they don't break down. Floyd will hold up but be either a little over or under .500 and Humber is nothing more than a #5 starter if that.

Completely agree- if we still had Mark- Humber would the long man out of the pen and Stewart would be a 'spare part" at AAA- if we stay 100% healthy we have a very good chance to win the Central- but you almost never make it through an entire season without pitching injuries- and I don't see a Jenks or McCarthy that we can tap into this year in the farm system- and we're already counting on 3 rookies out of the pen as it is.

Same goes for our position players- there may be an OF or 2 that could help us- but that's about it.

Noneck
05-26-2012, 03:46 PM
Most people here thought the Sox would be lucky to get anything out of Peavy, and quite a few posters here wanted AJ gone. Crain hasn't been much of an impact so far this season as he was hurt, and Thornton hasn't exactly been the most reliable pitcher out of the bullpen this season either. I can only think right now how well this theam would be doing if Danks was pitching up to a half of his potential. I agree with Dub...there IS more talent on this team than we realized.

Without AJ and Peavy having their career starts they are having this year, I dont think we would be even having this discussion now. We know Peavy is gone at the latest, at year end. I have read AJ wants one more large money contract and sincerely doubt it will be with the Sox. Depending on a inexperienced bullpen is a recipe for disaster, that would be the case without Crain and Thornton. Finally regarding Danks and Beckham, I have seen many players with so called potential and that means abolutely nothing unless that potential is realized.

spawn
05-26-2012, 04:11 PM
Without AJ and Peavy having their career starts they are having this year, I dont think we would be even having this discussion now. We know Peavy is gone at the latest, at year end. I have read AJ wants one more large money contract and sincerely doubt it will be with the Sox. Depending on a inexperienced bullpen is a recipe for disaster, that would be the case without Crain and Thornton. Finally regarding Danks and Beckham, I have seen many players with so called potential and that means abolutely nothing unless that potential is realized.
Even if they weren't having "careed starts", I'd still actually enjoy watching this team because they are playing with more heart and passion than I've seen in a while. Look, if you want to be a Debbie Downer, that's your deal. Me? I'd prefer to watch and enjoy what I am seeing from this team this season. :shrug:

Noneck
05-26-2012, 04:27 PM
Even if they weren't having "careed starts", I'd still actually enjoy watching this team because they are playing with more heart and passion than I've seen in a while. Look, if you want to be a Debbie Downer, that's your deal. Me? I'd prefer to watch and enjoy what I am seeing from this team this season. :shrug:

If you read my other posts in this thread, you will see what my point is. Just because of what is currently going on with this team does not mean that a tear down and rebuild is still not very possible before next year.

doublem23
05-26-2012, 04:47 PM
If you read my other posts in this thread, you will see what my point is. Just because of what is currently going on with this team does not mean that a tear down and rebuild is still not very possible before next year.

As long as KW is in charge, I don't think it will happen

Noneck
05-26-2012, 06:00 PM
As long as KW is in charge, I don't think it will happen

Whatever the chairman wants, will be done.

Dan H
05-26-2012, 06:11 PM
I like this team, too, but I doubt that the pitching is going to hold up for the whole season. The over-all future for the franchise looks much better at this point, but I don't think this is a playoff team.

RCWHITESOX
05-26-2012, 07:03 PM
For all those non believers how do you like this team now? I have felt all along that this team can compete in this division; and if they do Paulie could have a run for MVP. Time will tell but I like what I see with the makeup of this team and on field management.

Frontman
05-26-2012, 07:09 PM
I look at it this way, we can worry about the past:

http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/images/ls/esq-ozzie-guillen-1011-lg.jpg



Worry about the future:



http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/gallery_images/photos/001/110/632/127519612_crop_450x500.jpg?1317249219

(No depth to the program, ie "empty bench.")


OR

Just enjoy the moment:

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/XEKW1XVkrtY/hqdefault.jpg



The Sox are winning games and being entertaining in the right ways. Let's enjoy the ride and worry about tomorrow when it comes.

WLL1855
05-26-2012, 07:11 PM
The Sox have been a very pleasant surprise this year. Of last year's disappointing trifecta (Dunn, Peavy, Rios - that's something like $45 mil of the payroll, btw), I figured one of the three would turn it around and the other two would be 'meh' at best. Wonderfully, all three have been productive.

I'm cautiously optimistic right now and just enjoying it for what it is. If we get to Labor Day and are still just a few games out of first place then I'll start to get excited.

soxinem1
05-26-2012, 07:11 PM
I don't know who was responsible for the Sox not preventing stolen bases previously, but it is clear that Ventura and Parent have made it a priority, whereas Ozzie and Cora did not. This is especially damning considering that we actually lost Buehrle, who was one of the best pitchers in the majors at picking off runners.

I was just mentioning the other day that I have never seen AJ so fast out of the pocket when throwing down to 2B, and Flowers has been dead on with virtually all of his throws.

Of course having so much LHP kind of helps a little.......

On another note, the long-time, numerous, poor over-throws from the OF have been non-existent so far.

Lip Man 1
05-26-2012, 07:15 PM
Ozzie always talked a good game regarding fundamentals, than spring training began and the regular season and that went out the window.

Lip

Golden Sox
05-26-2012, 07:16 PM
There's been all this critcism of the White Sox farm system yet if you look at this team DeAza, Viciedo, Flowers,Beckham, Ramirez, Escobar, Jones, Quintana, Sale, Santiago, and Reed have been brought up from our system. Perhaps our farm system has been underrated.

Lip Man 1
05-26-2012, 07:19 PM
De Aza, Escobar and Flowers were acquired from other organizations remember.

Lip

doublem23
05-26-2012, 07:21 PM
De Aza, Escobar and Flowers were acquired from other organizations remember.

Lip

De Aza and Flowers were acquired from Florida and Atlanta respectively, but Escobar has spent his entire pro career with the Sox organization.

Quintana's spent the first few years of his pro career elsewhere, too, but the Sox seemed to have found something with him. He at least murders the Indians.

Soxman219
05-26-2012, 07:36 PM
I'm just enjoying it. Who knows? We can see this team in a World Series this year if they keep playing like this. MLB is wide open this year with no legit contender except Texas. We can also see a complete tear down before the break. Right now, Sox are winning and that's all that matters.

chisoxfanatic
05-26-2012, 07:52 PM
The Sox are winning games and being entertaining in the right ways. Let's enjoy the ride and worry about tomorrow when it comes.
I like the premise of your post and can agree with it 100%. It's been enjoyable.
The Sox have been a very pleasant surprise this year. Of last year's disappointing trifecta (Dunn, Peavy, Rios - that's something like $45 mil of the payroll, btw), I figured one of the three would turn it around and the other two would be 'meh' at best. Wonderfully, all three have been productive.

I'm cautiously optimistic right now and just enjoying it for what it is. If we get to Labor Day and are still just a few games out of first place then I'll start to get excited.
It's looking to me like all 3 of them are out to prove something.

gosox41
05-27-2012, 10:59 PM
I haven't been able to say that about the White Sox since about 2008. They could crash and end up in the cellar but they could also put on a good run. The talent and passion that hasn't been there for years is back with Ventura, a revitalized Dunn, an always solid (and early MVP candidate) Konerko, and a passionate newcomer in Hudson.

I have a losing record in the 6 games I've gone to this year, but each game they've shown some heart and made it enjoyable. They may not win the World Series but I think this is a year that White Sox fans should enjoy. The division is a joke but with the pitching the Sox have, as long as it keeps up (and please cut Ohman) I don't think a deep playoff run is out of the question.

Anyone with me?

I like this team is the keep producing. Right now most everyone is hot. If/when the cool off, I'd like to see how they respond.


Bob

central44
05-28-2012, 12:00 AM
Personally, I don't find this surprising. The talent has always been there, they just needed to put it together. Last year the Sox suffered through historically bad years from Dunn and Rios. This year, those two aren't hurting the team, and everyone else is doing what they should be (and Konerko has been an absolute monster)

I love watching this team because they appear to enjoy playing baseball. Last year, they completely mailed it in, which I think is partially because the manager checked out early on. Watching this team respond to the new leadership has been a lot of fun. The Sox have a lot of young talent, and Viciedo, Beckham, and Sale are starting to look like potential building blocks for the future.

I don't know if they are a contender. But the offense is there, the pitching has (largely) been there, and the defense has been there. In addition, the AL Central is very winnable this year. I'm optimistic--and remember, the MLB postseason is a crapshoot. The upcoming series against the Rays should tell us a lot about this team.

WhiteSox5187
05-28-2012, 12:24 AM
Other than the improvement in throwing out base runners the only difference between 2011 and 2012 is that Peavy is healthy and Dunn and Rios are playing like the players we thought they were. Now I will concede that that is a big turn around but really they are playing like the team we thought they would be last year. It's exciting and I find myself watching the team a bit more intently than I was in April and have even found myself thinking at times "Well maybe this team can get into the playoffs and in the playoffs who knows?" I am not at all convinced that this team has what it takes to win the division or to continue to play well over the course of the rest of the season. We will get a big test against the Rays and the Blue Jays. My biggest fear though is that like in 2010 Kenny gets impatient and trades a guy like Molina or even Beckham for the 2012 version of Edwin Jackson.

Frontman
05-28-2012, 12:34 AM
Everything isn't all working for the Sox right now, but where they have problems, the other parts of the team are doing their best to pick them up. (Let's face it, on any given day, the Indians could of easily won yesterday and today's game.) Gavin has been really bad. Danks is now on the DL, but he wasn't doing all that well either.

Given that the team is a few games over .500 with their #1 and #3 starters either out or wetting the bed at any given chance?

This has been a team effort to keep winning. I like how this season has gone. Hope it keeps up throughout the season.

TDog
05-28-2012, 01:47 AM
Everything isn't all working for the Sox right now, but where they have problems, the other parts of the team are doing their best to pick them up. (Let's face it, on any given day, the Indians could of easily won yesterday and today's game.) Gavin has been really bad. Danks is now on the DL, but he wasn't doing all that well either.

Given that the team is a few games over .500 with their #1 and #3 starters either out or wetting the bed at any given chance?

This has been a team effort to keep winning. I like how this season has gone. Hope it keeps up throughout the season.

I think it's ridiculous to suggest that the Indians had a chance on any given day to win today or Saturday. They were outscored 26-13, and in each game, they gave up twice as many runs as they scored. The Indians had only two leads in the series, never more than a one-run lead, and on both occasions, the lead was early and brief.

After the Indians took two games from the White Sox on May 7, one a one-run game and the other a two-run game, consensus at the end of the day was that the Indians were clearly the better team. Since then, the Whiite Sox have beaten the Indians five straight, outscoring the Indians 48-20.

I would like to see stronger pitching, but even as poorly as Floyd pitched today, he pitched out of trouble with the score tied a couple of times. The half-inning before Konerko broke the tie (with a rally that started with two out and none on), Floyd pitched out of a bases-loaded-one-out jam.

And as bad as the pitching has been, Ventura has not been burning out the bullpen, something I've come to appreciate about his managing.

JB98
05-28-2012, 02:00 AM
I'm not making plans for October baseball by any means, but the White Sox are a team worth following again. Last year, it felt like a chore to watch the games. I haven't felt that way yet this year, not one single time. It's been more enjoyable -- even before they started hitting and winning.

Win or lose, the players seem to enjoy playing baseball again. Last year, I think the manager quit on them, so they quit on the manager. It was just a big ****show and a shameful ****ing circus and no fun at all. Thank goodness those days are over.

October26
05-28-2012, 10:22 AM
Personally, I don't find this surprising. The talent has always been there, they just needed to put it together. Last year the Sox suffered through historically bad years from Dunn and Rios. This year, those two aren't hurting the team, and everyone else is doing what they should be (and Konerko has been an absolute monster)

I love watching this team because they appear to enjoy playing baseball. Last year, they completely mailed it in, which I think is partially because the manager checked out early on. Watching this team respond to the new leadership has been a lot of fun. The Sox have a lot of young talent, and Viciedo, Beckham, and Sale are starting to look like potential building blocks for the future.

I don't know if they are a contender. But the offense is there, the pitching has (largely) been there, and the defense has been there. In addition, the AL Central is very winnable this year. I'm optimistic--and remember, the MLB postseason is a crapshoot. The upcoming series against the Rays should tell us a lot about this team.

Great post. I agree with everything you said and am especially pleased to see Beckham's recent resurgence. Gordon looked so bad at the plate earlier this season and suddenly he has found his stroke again. Gordon was 4 for 4 yesterday. Yay!

I'm not sure if it is because Gordon spends so much time with Paulie (he calls Paulie "dad") and/or because Gordon is making the necessary adjustments at the plate and/or this is the magic of new Sox hitting coach, Jeff Manto. Whatever it is, I'm delighted to see the old Gordon Beckham (the one that hits the baseball) back in a Sox uniform.

Oh, and one last thing. I am thrilled to see Robin doing so well in his rookie season as Sox Manager. Robin has made some mistakes but overall he's done well so far. Yes, I very much like this Sox team. :D:

Rounding_Third
05-28-2012, 10:38 AM
Not with you. Enjoy the season. With the extra wild card, no reason they can't contend for a playoff spot. But "deep playoff run"... I'd hold off on that assessment.

I agree. I'd feel better with a 3rd quality starter for any kind of playoff run. Maybe he's already on our staff and hasn't shown it yet. Also, our 2 best have durability question marks. But what a sweet ride so far!

Love the fundamentals on this team; particularly on defense. What a difference from "Ozzieball"! Doing everything right. Viciedo is so solid in LF; best we've had out there in a long, long time. Kudos to the entire coaching staff!

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2012, 11:05 AM
I too am pleased that this team has presently exceeded our expectations. But let's tap the breaks on Viciedo as a "great/plus/above average/good" left fielder. He's not embarrassing himself out there, but we Sox fans have been used to lousy LF play over the past decade. Lee stood on the warning track, allowing lots of liners to drop for singles. Pods and Pierre were fast but often were poorly positioned, didn't catch the ball well and had popgun arms. Quentin played there in 2008 but was never known for great fielding; he had a strong but often inaccurate arm. Overall our outfield defense is solid, but that's because of DeAza and Rios. Tank is just there because, like most LFs, he does something useful with the bat and we already have a 1B and DH. As long as he catches what's hit near him, that's good enough.

Noneck
05-28-2012, 11:27 AM
The Sox have a lot of young talent, and Viciedo, Beckham, and Sale are starting to look like potential building blocks for the future.




Yesterdays game does not suddenly make Beckham a building block for the future. Prior to yesterdays game he was at or below the mendoza line for the prior 2 months and had a crappy last year. Similarly with Viciedo, a couple of weeks doesnt make him a building block for the future.

Its nice to finally to see some some good hitting on this club but its way to early to make those kind of assumptions.

Rounding_Third
05-28-2012, 11:32 AM
I too am pleased that this team has presently exceeded our expectations. But let's tap the breaks on Viciedo as a "great/plus/above average/good" left fielder. He's not embarrassing himself out there, but we Sox fans have been used to lousy LF play over the past decade. Lee stood on the warning track, allowing lots of liners to drop for singles. Pods and Pierre were fast but often were poorly positioned, didn't catch the ball well and had popgun arms. Quentin played there in 2008 but was never known for great fielding; he had a strong but often inaccurate arm. Overall our outfield defense is solid, but that's because of DeAza and Rios. Tank is just there because, like most LFs, he does something useful with the bat and we already have a 1B and DH. As long as he catches what's hit near him, that's good enough.

In the last couple of weeks or so, Tank's also made many fine catches from the LF foul territory stands to the alley wall, made some good running and diving catches, thrown out at least one runner at the plate, kept runners from advancing the extra base with his fast-growing arm strength and accuracy reputation, and made very few mistakes. He reads the ball very well and get a very good jump on almost every one hit to him. He has a RF arm.

I agree he was converted because of his bat and our needs but has adapted and learned the position really well given the circumstances.

He's not a defensive superstar by any means but is much more than what's in your post.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2012, 11:50 AM
In the last couple of weeks or so, Tank's also made many fine catches from the LF foul territory stands to the alley wall, made some good running and diving catches, thrown out at least one runner at the plate, kept runners from advancing the extra base with his fast-growing arm strength and accuracy reputation, and made very few mistakes. He reads the ball very well and get a very good jump on almost every one hit to him. He has a RF arm.

I agree he was converted because of his bat and our needs but has adapted and learned the position really well given the circumstances.

He's not a defensive superstar by any means but is much more than what's in your post.

I agree that he has shown improvement and that he is both sufficiently young and athletic to continue improving, perhaps even to a "plus" level.

mzh
05-28-2012, 11:59 AM
Yesterdays game does not suddenly make Beckham a building block for the future. Prior to yesterdays game he was at or below the mendoza line for the prior 2 months and had a crappy last year. Similarly with Viciedo, a couple of weeks doesnt make him a building block for the future.

Its nice to finally to see some some good hitting on this club but its way to early to make those kind of assumptions.
It is too early to make assumptions, but it isn't just yesterday. Beckham's swing has been noticeably better for the last 3-4 weeks, it just hadn't quite shown in the numbers. Even so, he's hitting 100 points better in May than he did in April.

It's been mentioned that Beckham is modeling his approach at the plate after Paulie's. This is the most striking difference I've seen from him lately. Most of last year and April this year it seemed like as soon as he got in the box he'd be down 0-2 and whiffing at high fastballs. Now he's consistently working the count and spraying the ball to all fields, and we're seeing what he can still do when he does that. There is still hope for him!

downstairs
05-28-2012, 11:59 AM
While no one else is looking, we have the second best run differential in the AL.

Hey... sleeper teams find themselves in the playoffs every year. No reason the Sox can't be that team in 2012.

We're .5 games out of both the division lead AND the 2nd wild card.

Yeah, i know its May and all... but .542 is nothing but successful right now for a team projected as a bottom feeder.

Lip Man 1
05-28-2012, 12:18 PM
Sox 5187:

You're forgetting a big improvement in the dugout aren't you in your list of differences?

It's clear the last thing Ozzie wanted to do particularly the final two months (after his diatribe on getting a multi year contract for more money) was be in the dugout. Don't think for a naosecond the players didn't pick up on that.

Lip

Shoeless
05-28-2012, 12:48 PM
Sox 5187:

You're forgetting a big improvement in the dugout aren't you in your list of differences?

It's clear the last thing Ozzie wanted to do particularly the final two months (after his diatribe on getting a multi year contract for more money) was be in the dugout. Don't think for a naosecond the players didn't pick up on that.

Lip

The morale of this team is lightyears ahead of the 2011 Chicago Nick Swishers.

Frontman
05-28-2012, 12:58 PM
I think it's ridiculous to suggest that the Indians had a chance on any given day to win today or Saturday. They were outscored 26-13, and in each game, they gave up twice as many runs as they scored. The Indians had only two leads in the series, never more than a one-run lead, and on both occasions, the lead was early and brief.


Given how baseball is supposed to be, a team scores 7 runs, odds are, on any given day, would have a "W" not a "L" as a result. That's not ridiculous, its what baseball usually is. Scoring 7 and still getting a loss is rare in baseball. That's my point.

TomBradley72
05-28-2012, 01:50 PM
In the last couple of weeks or so, Tank's also made many fine catches from the LF foul territory stands to the alley wall, made some good running and diving catches, thrown out at least one runner at the plate, kept runners from advancing the extra base with his fast-growing arm strength and accuracy reputation, and made very few mistakes. He reads the ball very well and get a very good jump on almost every one hit to him. He has a RF arm.

I agree he was converted because of his bat and our needs but has adapted and learned the position really well given the circumstances.

He's not a defensive superstar by any means but is much more than what's in your post.

Viciedo is the 3rd best starting LF in the American League today- behind only Trout (LAA) and Gordon (KC).

Daver
05-28-2012, 01:55 PM
Viciedo is the 3rd best starting LF in the American League today- behind only Trout (LAA) and Gordon (KC).

Based on what?

TDog
05-28-2012, 02:00 PM
Given how baseball is supposed to be, a team scores 7 runs, odds are, on any given day, would have a "W" not a "L" as a result. That's not ridiculous, its what baseball usually is. Scoring 7 and still getting a loss is rare in baseball. That's my point.

Not if the are giving up two runs for every run they are giving up.

If you are allowing two runs for every run you score (as Cleveland did on Saturday and Sunday -- they allowed three runs for every run they scored Friday, there aren't any given days when you are going to win. Whatever was ailing the White Sox pitching was ailing the Indians pitching at least by a factor of two.

If the Indians had done to the White Sox in this series what the White Sox did to the Indians, there would be no "on any given day" reality checks hypothesized. Such would be considered beyond ridiculous in this forum.

Frontman
05-28-2012, 04:21 PM
Not if the are giving up two runs for every run they are giving up.

If you are allowing two runs for every run you score (as Cleveland did on Saturday and Sunday -- they allowed three runs for every run they scored Friday, there aren't any given days when you are going to win. Whatever was ailing the White Sox pitching was ailing the Indians pitching at least by a factor of two.

If the Indians had done to the White Sox in this series what the White Sox did to the Indians, there would be no "on any given day" reality checks hypothesized. Such would be considered beyond ridiculous in this forum.

Whatever. Not going to argue with you. A team scores seven, USUALLY they win. Baseball has statistically never been a high scoring game. But fine, whatever, you win.

:dtroll:

TomBradley72
05-28-2012, 06:22 PM
Based on what?

I took a look at the current depth charts of each AL- looking at a the stats of all of the current LF's in the AL- Dayan looks like the 3rd best LF.

TDog
05-28-2012, 06:31 PM
Whatever. Not going to argue with you. A team scores seven, USUALLY they win. Baseball has statistically never been a high scoring game. But fine, whatever, you win.

:dtroll:

Am I a troll because I'm not being negative? Teams that score 9, 14 and 12 runs win more often than teams that score 3, 7 and 6 run in those games.

Frontman
05-28-2012, 06:50 PM
Am I a troll because I'm not being negative? Teams that score 9, 14 and 12 runs win more often than teams that score 3, 7 and 6 run in those games.

No, you're being a troll for picking a fight over wording. On the average, if you score 7 or more runs, you win a baseball game.

Yes, your point of teams that score more than their opponents win. This also just in, water is also wet.

But, per average, just for one year as an example.

From the statistics for Major League Baseball for 2009, the average score for the winning team was 6.37 runs, while the average score for the losing team was 2.85. Overall, teams scored an average of 4.61 runs per game.

Ergo, if you score more than 6.37 runs (which 7 is more than that) your team will on the average win a game.

But never let things like statistics get in the way of getting hung up over a phrase like "any given day."

Nor am I being "negative." I'm saying this team, though flawed, is winning games. Period.

Lip Man 1
05-28-2012, 08:50 PM
Front:

Well stated.

Lip

Daver
05-29-2012, 12:35 AM
I took a look at the current depth charts of each AL- looking at a the stats of all of the current LF's in the AL- Dayan looks like the 3rd best LF.

So, based on nothing?

SteveFakeBlood
05-29-2012, 01:37 AM
Me too, this team is a lot more enjoyable to watch. People point to Ozzie last year and certainly he did check out- but I think guys like Beckham, Dunn and Rios weren't having fun- the season seemed like a chore for them because they were playing so poorly and that dread probably perpetuated their situation. Not that I'm inside their heads or whatever- but negative body language and surely not doing anything to give your a team to chance to win and hearing boos isn't much fun, either. The team as a whole is also not burdened by the expectations we had the last three seasons.

Winning cures everything, more or less. After last year they needed a change and Ventura is the type of manager they need at the moment. Dunn, Peavy and Rios' turnarounds have been massive and they afforded Beckham and Viciedo more time to get themselves together.

Viciedo has not only found his hitting stroke (and slightly better plate discipline)- but he's been adequate in left field- he misjudges fly balls sometimes, but has better speed than I thought he would, has a cannon for an arm and is fundamentally sound enough to actually hit the cut-off man (something our outfield play has lacked the last few years, I'm not sure who's responsible for coaching our outfields, but they actually have it together this year).

As someone noted earlier, De Aza has been massively underrated this year- he's leading the team in runs and has walked enough to have an OBP of .362- it's great to have a lead off man who can not only actually hit and get on base by other means as well.

Seeing all the young arms like Sale, Reed, Jones, Santiago and Stewart succeeding on the big league level (with the exception of a few cringe-worthy moments from Santiago and one bad relief appearance from Reed) has been exciting.

If Danks recovers strongly from his DL trip (which hopefully explains his poor performances) and either Floyd or Humber can get themselves together, we'll have a good enough rotation to possibly do something in the playoffs.


Believe it or not, in spite of the concern over the farm system (which I understand is legitimate for the most part)- two of our better position player prospects- Jared Mitchell (.893 OPS) and Jordan Danks (.872) are having excellent seasons in the minors and we've got plenty of arms in reserve. Sure, we're not talking the Rays organization or anything here, but I'm excited to see one or both of them in September- who knows maybe they could provide a spark or at least shore up our bench?

As a team besides the basics of hitting and pitching- the base-running, defense, execution of fundamentals are worlds better than last year.

Obviously, the durability of our starters and poor performances on the back end of the rotation are a concern as is the youth of our bullpen and our very thin bench. Maybe one or all of these flaws will be our undoing even if we do have a summer to remember. Then again, maybe our strengths will overcome them.

Anyway, this team could well experience a big swoon- but Detroit is looking like the 2011 Sox and I don't fully believe the Indians are for real- so we might still have enough to sneak into a playoff spot. I think we can, but I'm wary of all the years in my lifetime where teams contended and didn't have quite enough or failed massively to build on expectations from the previous season (see '84, '94, '96, '97, '01, '03, '04, '06 and '09-11) Even if we don't- this is a team not expected to contend- anything we do above .500 is gravy.

~ Steve

Ron Karkovice
05-29-2012, 01:45 AM
So, based on nothing?

For AL LFs:
Tied for second BA...
Most HRs...
No errors
Most assists

So yeah, hes close to top 3.

Daver
05-29-2012, 02:18 AM
For AL LFs:
Tied for second BA...
Most HRs...
No errors
Most assists

So yeah, hes close to top 3.

Offensive stats have nothing to do with position.

You can achieve no errors by standing on the warning track and not throwing any ball that is in play into the stands.

WhiteSox5187
05-29-2012, 02:26 AM
Offensive stats have nothing to do with position.

You can achieve no errors by standing on the warning track and not throwing any ball that is in play into the stands.

I have to ask, do you think offensive stats have any business in baseball? Ted Williams for example was widely considered to be a pretty lousy left fielder but would you not want him on your team because he couldn't play defense?

Ron Karkovice
05-29-2012, 02:28 AM
You can achieve no errors by standing on the warning track and not throwing any ball that is in play into the stands.


Good one.

Daver
05-29-2012, 02:34 AM
I have to ask, do you think offensive stats have any business in baseball? Ted Williams for example was widely considered to be a pretty lousy left fielder but would you not want him on your team because he couldn't play defense?

I have to answer.

How are you using them?

WhiteSox5187
05-29-2012, 02:37 AM
I have to answer.

How are you using them?

I suppose the question boils down to this: if you were building a team would you accept having one or two guys on your team who are good hitters but bad defenders? Are there not some positions you would trade defense for offense?

Daver
05-29-2012, 02:52 AM
I suppose the question boils down to this: if you were building a team would you accept having one or two guys on your team who are good hitters but bad defenders? Are there not some positions you would trade defense for offense?


I don't know enough about baseball to build a team, I do think you can hide a poor defender in left, but I would prefer to hide him at DH or first.

The Sox have been able to hide a poor defender behind the plate for over seven years because of his offense, they just chalk up what he gives away to what he produces.

sullythered
05-29-2012, 04:25 AM
Offensive stats have nothing to do with position.

You can achieve no errors by standing on the warning track and not throwing any ball that is in play into the stands.

Sure, but that doesn't describe Viciedo at all. He has his flaws, but those can be easily attributed to learning the position (get a not so great first step), but he has WAY better range than was expected of him, he makes difficult catches and he has a cannon that has shown to be very accurate. He also makes good decisions. There is no reason not to expect the few areas he needs to work on can't improve with experience. He is already MILES ahead of where Carlos Lee ended up at, after years playing the position. He has been a very pleasant surprise, defensively.

everafan
05-29-2012, 05:35 PM
This team is as good as its starting pitching will take them. Peavy and Sale have been unconscious, keeping up that pace will be difficult. The rest of the staff is, What you see is what you get.

Well Peavy and Sale will not pitch like this over the course of the season - the same could be said of Floyd and Danks. So some regression from Peavy and Sales and some improvement from Floyd and Danks = good scenario. Peavy and Sale need to stay healthy, though.

Similarly, the pitching isn't as good as it was the first month and the offense isn't as good as it's been the last few weeks. So gravitating to the mean could still = success. I'm pumped.

TDog
05-29-2012, 06:08 PM
...
Nor am I being "negative." I'm saying this team, though flawed, is winning games. Period.

Evey team is flawed. In baseball, the team who does the best job of minimizing its flaws end up on top.

If you want to complain about the White Sox pitching in a game where the outrageious number of runs given up was doubled by the lousy offense, you are nitpicking.

This is a pretty good White Sox team. I wrote that in March, and I still believe it. I'm not fighting over wording. I am arguing that after a very good weekend, there are fans out there who are so intent on finding fault with this team that they can't appreciate the positives. They blew away the first-place team which just got done sweeping the team that was supposed to run away with the division. Apparently Detroit and Cleveland aren't flawless either.

While some here are looking hard for reasons not to, I like this team.

Frontman
05-29-2012, 08:27 PM
Evey team is flawed. In baseball, the team who does the best job of minimizing its flaws end up on top.

If you want to complain about the White Sox pitching in a game where the outrageious number of runs given up was doubled by the lousy offense, you are nitpicking.

This is a pretty good White Sox team. I wrote that in March, and I still believe it. I'm not fighting over wording. I am arguing that after a very good weekend, there are fans out there who are so intent on finding fault with this team that they can't appreciate the positives. They blew away the first-place team which just got done sweeping the team that was supposed to run away with the division. Apparently Detroit and Cleveland aren't flawless either.

While some here are looking hard for reasons not to, I like this team.

Reading is a skill. You might want to go back and show me, precisely, where I "complained" about bad pitching. I pointed out that Danks and Floyd haven't been up to standard. That isn't complaining, its pointing out a fact.

You're picking a fight with someone that HAPPENS TO LIKE THIS TEAM TOO. (Which I stated, perfectly, earlier, before you got hung up on "any given day" which, for all your denial, is EXACTLY what you got frustrated with in the first place.)

Before you start bashing anyone over the head with the "holier than thou since I like this team more than you" ugly stick, y'might want to look, read all of the posts instead of just getting hung up over a turn of the phrase, and make sure they might of not already said they like the team too.
:dtroll:

TomBradley72
05-29-2012, 10:19 PM
Offensive stats have nothing to do with position.

You can achieve no errors by standing on the warning track and not throwing any ball that is in play into the stands.

Except that has no connection to the reality of Viciedo's play in LF this year. He's covered the line and the corner very effectively, shown a plus arm, and has made a few webgem type catches- the diving catch on Opening Day vs. Tigers to name one.

all*star quentin
05-29-2012, 10:42 PM
I'm starting to love this team. :)

TDog
05-29-2012, 11:05 PM
Reading is a skill. You might want to go back and show me, precisely, where I "complained" about bad pitching. I pointed out that Danks and Floyd haven't been up to standard. That isn't complaining, its pointing out a fact.

You're picking a fight with someone that HAPPENS TO LIKE THIS TEAM TOO. (Which I stated, perfectly, earlier, before you got hung up on "any given day" which, for all your denial, is EXACTLY what you got frustrated with in the first place.)

Before you start bashing anyone over the head with the "holier than thou since I like this team more than you" ugly stick, y'might want to look, read all of the posts instead of just getting hung up over a turn of the phrase, and make sure they might of not already said they like the team too.
:dtroll:

Yes, I know. Your turn of phrase wasn't the issue. And I apologize if you felt that I insulted you. I just believe the weekend was part of the best stretch of baseball the team has played all year, under conditions in that fans didn't believe this team to win in. The conditions that made it possible for the White Sox to score 35 runs in the series also made it possible for the Indians to score 16. I don't think the pitching this weekend was anything to worry about. I actually believe the pitching is the team's strength.

Part of my response was not directed toward you, but toward the fans who are waiting for things to turn around, prepared to enjoy gloating if they can't enjoy a winning season. I was criticized for liking this team a couple of months ago. I know you aren't part of that crowd.

SoxSpeed22
05-29-2012, 11:40 PM
Not bad for a team that was supposed to lose 90+ games. You can really tell the difference in how much looser and more focused this team is compared to last year.

Frontman
05-29-2012, 11:43 PM
Yes, I know. Your turn of phrase wasn't the issue. And I apologize if you felt that I insulted you. I just believe the weekend was part of the best stretch of baseball the team has played all year, under conditions in that fans didn't believe this team to win in. The conditions that made it possible for the White Sox to score 35 runs in the series also made it possible for the Indians to score 16. I don't think the pitching this weekend was anything to worry about. I actually believe the pitching is the team's strength.

Part of my response was not directed toward you, but toward the fans who are waiting for things to turn around, prepared to enjoy gloating if they can't enjoy a winning season. I was criticized for liking this team a couple of months ago. I know you aren't part of that crowd.

Fair enough. Misunderstanding and all that. And I think both of us can agree:

It's fun to like a team that's in FIRST FREAKIN' PLACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D:

Sorry to get pissy right back at you too. Let's just put it in the past and enjoy baseball.

kobo
05-29-2012, 11:54 PM
All I really wanted to see this year was a more fundamentally sound team; the last couple years it wasn't fun watching White Sox baseball. These last 2 weeks have been the most fun I've had watching baseball since probably 2005. I love the way this team plays the game. They're solid defensively, they have a great approach at the plate, and they hustle. They look like they are having fun and right now they're rolling and I hope they can keep it going. Even if they do fizzle out and don't end up winning the division I think that moving forward we are going to see this kind of play from the White Sox. It's such a refreshing change from the last few years and I couldn't be more ecstatic right now.

Lip Man 1
05-30-2012, 01:01 AM
Considering the expectations before things started finishing at least with a winning season would be fine by me. Anything over that would be gravy.

Lip

IronFisk
05-30-2012, 01:30 AM
Ah what the flip...let's have fun with this!

:gulp::gulp::gulp::gulp::gulp::gulp:

Crooked Number
05-30-2012, 01:39 AM
I'm enjoying every game, and enjoying quality baseball. I am not going to think too far ahead, nor dwell on the past. The phrase I have come to adhere by is "Cautious Optimism", which as I have gotten older has really reduced my stress levels while cheering for my favorite club.

Let's all sit back, relax, and strap it down!

I like Hawks quazi-new phrase of when a fly ball is hit. "We have a man there". It kind of puts me at ease heh.

I will be attending alot more games this year, in fact, with the advent of stubhub I am going to try to make it to at least one game per homestand. Haven't done that since '08.

asindc
05-30-2012, 09:47 AM
This has been mentioned here and in other threads, but I think it bears repeating. I really, really like the improved defensive and fundamentals play. The offensive will ebb and flow (and certainly not continue at the current torrid pace) and the pitching will have its ups and downs as well, but quality defense and fundamental play is something the team can bring to every game. Part of my frustration with watching the Sox since 2006 is the tendency to give away outs and runs in situations where it could have been avoided with even adequate play in those areas. If a team outhits and/or outpitches us, so be it. Just don't beat ourselves. This team does less of that than any Sox team since 2006, IMO. It has been a pleasure to watch.

Hitmen77
05-30-2012, 11:16 AM
I'm not making plans for October baseball by any means, but the White Sox are a team worth following again. Last year, it felt like a chore to watch the games. I haven't felt that way yet this year, not one single time. It's been more enjoyable -- even before they started hitting and winning.

Win or lose, the players seem to enjoy playing baseball again. Last year, I think the manager quit on them, so they quit on the manager. It was just a big ****show and a shameful ****ing circus and no fun at all. Thank goodness those days are over.

I have enjoyed that this team has been better at fundamentals lately. For the past 5 or 6 years, the team was often sloppy and it got old hearing management saying "we need to get better at fundamentals" - which was all talk and no results.