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View Full Version : Torii Hunter Responsible For White Sox World Championship... Or Something


RKMeibalane
05-21-2012, 06:01 PM
Link (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/152344975.html#%21page=0&pageSize=10&sort=newestfirst)

Frontman
05-21-2012, 06:42 PM
This really should be in the Ozzie "if anyone cares" thread.

RKMeibalane
05-21-2012, 06:45 PM
This really should be in the Ozzie "if anyone cares" thread.

You're right. I'm sure the mods will move it there before the night is through.

chisoxfanatic
05-21-2012, 07:05 PM
I don't even believe it. Retaliation was not in Ozzie's coaching book.

Brian26
05-21-2012, 07:58 PM
Link (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/152344975.html#%21page=0&pageSize=10&sort=newestfirst)

Podsednik and Vizcaino didnt win the World Series on their own. But, does Morissey state that this trade won the World Series for the Sox? I don't see that quote.

This really should be in the Ozzie "if anyone cares" thread.

Not necessarily.

You're right. I'm sure the mods will move it there before the night is through.

Not necessarily.

I don't even believe it. Retaliation was not in Ozzie's coaching book.

This incident was common knowledge after it occurred. Everyone knew Valentin and Caballo were gone after the 2004 season. It was the worst kept secret in baseball.

Not sure what the issue is here, because this story is 100% accurate.

RKMeibalane
05-21-2012, 08:36 PM
Podsednik and Vizcaino didnt win the World Series on their own.

No, but Podsednik helped to change the dynamic of the Sox lineup, making it a lineup less dependent on the three-run home run, and more able to squeeze out two or three runs per ballgame. Backed by a pitching staff that performed well beyond expectations, and the Sox were well on their way to a title.

SoxSpeed22
05-21-2012, 09:08 PM
That trade also allowed them to cut salary to make room for Dye, AJ, Hermanson and Hernandez.

Irishsox1
05-21-2012, 09:09 PM
Wouldn't retaliation be to just hit Hunter? If anyone deserved to get beamed it was Torri Hunter on the Jamie Burke play. Burke was off the plate and the ball wasn't near him.

Actually, taking out the shortstop or second basemen was Ozzie's favorite method of retaliation when he was with the Sox as a player. I remember a 1990 Sox vs. Yankees game where Ozzie took out the second basemen and then ran right off the field not sticking around for a fight.

RKMeibalane
05-21-2012, 09:17 PM
Wouldn't retaliation be to just hit Hunter? If anyone deserved to get beamed it was Torri Hunter on the Jamie Burke play. Burke was off the plate and the ball wasn't near him.

Actually, taking out the shortstop or second basemen was Ozzie's favorite method of retaliation when he was with the Sox as a player. I remember a 1990 Sox vs. Yankees game where Ozzie took out the second basemen and then ran right off the field not sticking around for a fight.

At least he made it near second base. That wasn't always a given with Ozzie.

Link (http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=5120145)

Brian26
05-21-2012, 11:17 PM
That trade also allowed them to cut salary to make room for Dye, AJ, Hermanson and Hernandez.

Most of the available salary was because Mags' $14 million was off the books.

Brian26
05-21-2012, 11:27 PM
No, but Podsednik helped to change the dynamic of the Sox lineup, making it a lineup less dependent on the three-run home run, and more able to squeeze out two or three runs per ballgame.

Which is really one of the biggest misconceptions of the 2005 season. The Sox were still a home-run hitting team who just happened to have a guy at the top of the order who could occasionally get on with a bunt and steal some bases in bunches. Beyond that, from #2 Iguchi down the line to Uribe or Crede hitting 9th, it was a free-swinging power hitting softball team with great pitching. Look at the big moments of '05, whether Iguchi's Game 2 ALDS homer off Wells, AJ's homer to beat the Dodgers on turn-back-the-clock night, Crede's homer against Cleveland in September, Frank Thomas' month of June where he was intentionally hobbling up to the plate and swinging for the fences, to the 2nd game of the season with Dye and Konerko homers off Wickman to come back against Cleveland, to all of the games the Sox took an early lead with multiple homers. This idea that they weren't dependent on the homerun is one of the biggest myths ever perpetuated, and I have no idea why "Ozzieball" was defined by that. I can think of so many more games from that season that were decided by homeruns than victories decided by squeezing runs across the plate with bunts, steals and sacrifices.

ChiSoxFann
05-21-2012, 11:40 PM
Which is really one of the biggest misconceptions of the 2005 season. The Sox were still a home-run hitting team who just happened to have a guy at the top of the order who could occasionally get on with a bunt and steal some bases in bunches. Beyond that, from #2 Iguchi down the line to Uribe or Crede hitting 9th, it was a free-swinging power hitting softball team with great pitching. Look at the big moments of '05, whether Iguchi's Game 2 ALDS homer off Wells, AJ's homer to beat the Dodgers on turn-back-the-clock night, Crede's homer against Cleveland in September, Frank Thomas' month of June where he was intentionally hobbling up to the plate and swinging for the fences, to the 2nd game of the season with Dye and Konerko homers off Wickman to come back against Cleveland, to all of the games the Sox took an early lead with multiple homers. This idea that they weren't dependent on the homerun is one of the biggest myths ever perpetuated, and I have no idea why "Ozzieball" was defined by that. I can think of so many more games from that season that were decided by homeruns than victories decided by squeezing runs across the plate with bunts, steals and sacrifices.


True that team was still reliant on the home run, but they were the best Sox team I've ever seen (only been watching seriously for 15 years) at being able to manufacture runs and actually getting clutch hits. They were really all-around good in 2005. Some years it can be downright painful to watch a Sox offense.

WhiteSox5187
05-21-2012, 11:46 PM
True that team was still reliant on the home run, but they were the best Sox team I've ever seen (only been watching seriously for 15 years) at being able to manufacture runs and actually getting clutch hits. They were really all-around good in 2005. Some years it can be downright painful to watch a Sox offense.

Well rounded is probably the best way to describe the 2005 White Sox. They were able to beat you in a different ways. They could launch 4 home runs in an inning and beat you 15-2 or they could manufacture a few runs and beat you 1-0 or 2-1. That team was in the top five in homers, stolen bases, and sac hits.

infohawk
05-22-2012, 12:54 AM
I remember at the time Ozzie saying something like "Carlos went into second like his wife was turning the double play." Hilarious!!!:tongue:

TaylorStSox
05-22-2012, 01:11 AM
Which is really one of the biggest misconceptions of the 2005 season. The Sox were still a home-run hitting team who just happened to have a guy at the top of the order who could occasionally get on with a bunt and steal some bases in bunches. Beyond that, from #2 Iguchi down the line to Uribe or Crede hitting 9th, it was a free-swinging power hitting softball team with great pitching. Look at the big moments of '05, whether Iguchi's Game 2 ALDS homer off Wells, AJ's homer to beat the Dodgers on turn-back-the-clock night, Crede's homer against Cleveland in September, Frank Thomas' month of June where he was intentionally hobbling up to the plate and swinging for the fences, to the 2nd game of the season with Dye and Konerko homers off Wickman to come back against Cleveland, to all of the games the Sox took an early lead with multiple homers. This idea that they weren't dependent on the homerun is one of the biggest myths ever perpetuated, and I have no idea why "Ozzieball" was defined by that. I can think of so many more games from that season that were decided by homeruns than victories decided by squeezing runs across the plate with bunts, steals and sacrifices.

We had a some kind of crazy run at the beginning of the year scoring first in every game. IIRC, it was in the 30's. A lot of that was due to Pods getting on base early in games. Our pitching staff had a ton more confidence pitching with the lead. Was it the reason we were so good? Probably not, but it was huge.

Hitmen77
05-22-2012, 09:07 AM
Is this new to people?:scratch: I have heard it suggested for years that the Carlos Lee soft slide after Hunter plowed into Burke put him on the trading block.

Rick Morrissey - he's the guy who claimed that half of the people in the World Series championship parade downtown were Cubs fans. :rolleyes:

Fun fact about Carlos Lee: He's making $18.5M for the Houston Astros this year.

jdm2662
05-22-2012, 09:49 AM
The 2005 White Sox did hit 200 home runs, yes. But, they also led the league in SAC flies and bunts. Also, almost everything sans a five week stretch in AUG and SEPT went there way. Even then, the unbeatable Indians proceded to lose 5 of their last 6 games, including against the Sox B team. And oh, yeah, they had the best pitching staff in baseball.

Lip Man 1
05-22-2012, 12:27 PM
They were also in the top four in stolen bases and infield hits.

Lip

tacosalbarojas
05-22-2012, 01:10 PM
We had a some kind of crazy run at the beginning of the year scoring first in every game. IIRC, it was in the 30's. A lot of that was due to Pods getting on base early in games. Our pitching staff had a ton more confidence pitching with the lead. Was it the reason we were so good? Probably not, but it was huge.Had a lead at some point in the game for the first 38 games, maybe...something like that.

Lip Man 1
05-22-2012, 01:50 PM
Set the record at 38 I believe breaking the mark held by the Brooklyn Dodgers from the mid 50's.

Getting an early lead is important, it sets the tone, it starts putting pressure on the opponent to 'catch up' and it gives your pitchers some margin for error.

Lip

samurai_sox
05-22-2012, 01:53 PM
To this day I have never seen footage of the Hunter-Burke collision.

I've been looking for it for years. :(:

Foulke You
05-22-2012, 01:57 PM
Most of the available salary was because Mags' $14 million was off the books.
El Caballo was due to make $8 million in 2005. Pods made $700,000 and Luis Vizcaino made $1.3 million so the trade allowed KW to save $6 million plus the $14 from Maggs you mentioned. This allowed KW all the payroll flexibility to add guys like El Duque, AJ, Dye, Hermanson, and Iguchi. It also gave him the flexbility to keep an expensive veteran like Carl Everett for bench depth. It was one of the best offseasons a GM could possibly put together. Every move came up aces and the team made Chicago baseball history.

PatK
05-22-2012, 03:40 PM
The 2005 White Sox did hit 200 home runs, yes. But, they also led the league in SAC flies and bunts. Also, almost everything sans a five week stretch in AUG and SEPT went there way. Even then, the unbeatable Indians proceded to lose 5 of their last 6 games, including against the Sox B team. And oh, yeah, they had the best pitching staff in baseball.

I believe they also led the league in productive outs as well.

TheVulture
05-24-2012, 02:28 PM
Which is really one of the biggest misconceptions of the 2005 season. The Sox were still a home-run hitting team who just happened to have a guy at the top of the order who could occasionally get on with a bunt and steal some bases in bunches. Beyond that, from #2 Iguchi down the line to Uribe or Crede hitting 9th, it was a free-swinging power hitting softball team with great pitching.

That is true, but it was still a team that could scrap and produce runs. Remember early in the season when the team was practically unbeatable how many games they won 2-1, 1-0? They could definitely play some small ball. Wasn't this a team that won a playoff game on a squeeze play? You don't just pull that sort of thing out of nowhere.

DonnieDarko
05-24-2012, 03:02 PM
That is true, but it was still a team that could scrap and produce runs. Remember early in the season when the team was practically unbeatable how many games they won 2-1, 1-0? They could definitely play some small ball. Wasn't this a team that won a playoff game on a squeeze play? You don't just pull that sort of thing out of nowhere.

I don't remember them winning a playoff game on a squeeze bunt, but I do remember Juan Uribe (!) bunting home a suicide squeeze that year to beat the Oakland A's at Sox Park that year.

Or maybe that was 2006...pretty sure that it was 2005, though.

Lip Man 1
05-24-2012, 03:09 PM
They beat the Royals in September that year on a squeeze also I think. I think it was done by Ozuna.

The key word that season was balance.

The Sox could beat you on a bloop, a bunt, or a blast.

They haven't had that balance since then.

Lip

hoosiersoxfan
05-24-2012, 04:46 PM
Everything went right that year and guys had career seasons as well it seemed. Even Frank Thomas only played 34 games and batted .219 that season but he still managed to belt 12 home runs.

TheVulture
05-25-2012, 12:38 AM
I don't remember them winning a playoff game on a squeeze bunt, but I do remember Juan Uribe (!) bunting home a suicide squeeze that year to beat the Oakland A's at Sox Park that year.

Or maybe that was 2006...pretty sure that it was 2005, though.

Game 3 vs. the Red Sox. My memory is a little faulty. Uribe squeezed home AJ in the 9th, but they were already up 4-3. I actually had in mind that Ozuna pulled off the squeeze, but I must have been thinking of the KC game.

TheVulture
05-25-2012, 12:39 AM
Everything went right that year and guys had career seasons as well it seemed. Even Frank Thomas only played 34 games and batted .219 that season but he still managed to belt 12 home runs.

At the right time, too, as the Sox seemed to be lacking punch when Frank came in and did some mashing.

Tragg
05-25-2012, 01:42 AM
I don't even believe it. Retaliation was not in Ozzie's coaching book.

At times it was. And petty personal grudges certainly were part of Ozzie's coaching book. Guillen later had Sean Tracey vanquished for not doing Vasquez' dirty work for him. Everyone knew he didn't like Lee. This rings true to me.

This was a bad value trade that worked out okay because Pods gave us something we didn't have and Lee gave us more of what we had in multitudes. Vizcaino was the last man in the pen and irrelevant really.

TheVulture
05-25-2012, 01:44 AM
Fun fact about Carlos Lee: He's making $18.5M for the Houston Astros this year.

Dang. That's almost 18.5 million more than I'm making this year.

Frater Perdurabo
05-25-2012, 07:27 AM
This was a bad value trade that worked out okay because Pods gave us something we didn't have and Lee gave us more of what we had in multitudes. Vizcaino was the last man in the pen and irrelevant really.

I seem to remember that while the 2005 rotation overall was excellent, there were a few times (Contreras struggled during the first half in particular before dominating later in the season) that Vizcaino ate some big innings and kept things from getting out of hand.

Every game was important that year; there's no telling what would have happened to the team psychologically if they had fallen out of first place late in September. Likewise, would Cleveland have lost their last few games if they actually had gained first place by .5 or 1.5 games?