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View Full Version : Viciedo to 3rd this weekend?


hawkjt
05-17-2012, 10:16 AM
Garfien is saying on the Score that he thinks the Sox should consider trying Dayan at 3rd maybe for this weekend to allow Dunn to play left.

Desperate moves for desperate times?
At this point,I am willing to consider anything to get some offensive pop in this lineup. The Cubs are playing decent right now and have some good starting pitching (Dempster,Samarja,Maholm) going in this series.

I know it sounds crazy,but Morel is driving me crazy with his at bats.
He needs to go down,imo, and try to build back his shattered confidence.
I know he has the bulging disc issue,and sympathize with that,as I have had the same problem. Maybe a stint on the DL to let it settle down would help...anything but those pathetic plate appearances.

Can Dayan get by at third?

asindc
05-17-2012, 10:23 AM
If you send Morel down (a move I would applaud, by the way), put Tank at 3rd and Dunn in LF, who will DH?

MtGrnwdSoxFan
05-17-2012, 10:26 AM
If you send Morel down (a move I would applaud, by the way), put Tank at 3rd and Dunn in LF, who will DH?

The return of Magglio!!

Madvora
05-17-2012, 10:28 AM
Wasn't Viciedo originally a 3B anyway?

vinny
05-17-2012, 10:32 AM
I'm OK with it as an experiment against the Scrubs. Robin is already planning to stick Dunn in left for the other interleague away games anyway.

amsteel
05-17-2012, 10:33 AM
The potential defensive cluster**** of Dunn backing up Viciedo is not worth scoring 4 runs a game instead of 3.

tstrike2000
05-17-2012, 10:34 AM
Ehh, may as well see what happens since Morel's offense is an abomination.

kittle42
05-17-2012, 10:45 AM
I am all in favor of it since we're not really trying to win anything this season anyway.

amsteel
05-17-2012, 10:49 AM
I am all in favor of it since we're not really trying to win anything this season anyway.

Agreed, but how will moving Viciedo out of LF, just when he starts hitting, affect him in the medium to long term? Of course, what effect will sitting him for 3 days have just as he's heating up have?

The SP has sucked lately, so he'll get plenty of PH opportunities. If nothing else, let him PH and double switch him to 3B. That way you get some of Morel's defense and some of Dayan's bat.

TheOldRoman
05-17-2012, 10:59 AM
No. Don't jerk Tank around. Leave him in one defensive spot and let him get experience there. It can only hurt him to switch positions once or twice a year. Thus far in his career, he has started at 3B, then moved to 1B, then he was called up to play 3B, then sent down and moved back to 1B while still getting time at 3B, and then finally moved to the outfield last year. That needs to stop.

And contrary to what the "you can't learn defense" people think, a 23 year-old actually can improve defensively if given a chance to get comfortable and learn at a position.

SI1020
05-17-2012, 11:05 AM
Wasn't Viciedo originally a 3B anyway? Yes and no.

TomBradley72
05-17-2012, 11:32 AM
What the hell- we put Kenny Williams at 3rd base, Carlton Fisk in LF, Rob Machowiak in CF and Ron Santo at 2nd base.

But this is no time to mess with Viciedo- I think he can be a "plus" LF with that arm and once he gets 100 games under his belt.

It's a shame its not a realistic option- we have a few outfield prospects in the system- but the cupboard is bare for 3rd base and has been since Crede's back went south.

doublem23
05-17-2012, 11:35 AM
But this is no time to mess with Viciedo- I think he can be a "plus" LF with that arm and once he gets 100 games under his belt.

I don't know, he's got a nice arm for a LF but he's still got very limited range. Hopefully as he gets more comfortable out there he can be an average defensive LF with a plus bat AKA El Caballo v 2.0

DSpivack
05-17-2012, 11:38 AM
This sounds like an incredibly stupid move that will only hurt the defense and jerk around a young, talented player who is struggling a bit. In other words, just like the White Sox!

doublem23
05-17-2012, 11:42 AM
This sounds like an incredibly stupid move that will only hurt the defense and jerk around a young, talented player who is struggling a bit. In other words, just like the White Sox!

I don't know, the Angels are moving Mark Trumbo all over the place. Hell, he's played 3B this year for the first time in his pro baseball career, IIRC, and I think we can agree that the Angels are more or less a model organization.

DSpivack
05-17-2012, 11:45 AM
I don't know, the Angels are moving Mark Trumbo all over the place. Hell, he's played 3B this year for the first time in his pro baseball career, IIRC, and I think we can agree that the Angels are more or less a model organization.

That is also stupid.

doublem23
05-17-2012, 11:48 AM
That is also stupid.

No doubt, but it's not like this is a White Sox only approach

Though, Trumbo currently leads the Angels in HR and RBI so they have to find a way to keep that bat in the lineup, considering they have been shut out 8 times already, most in the MLB.

hawkjt
05-17-2012, 11:50 AM
I thought that the Tigers would regret the day they moved Miguel Cabrera to third base,but he seems to not be killing them over there.

I think this has about a 1% chance of happening, but for the 9 road inter-league games, I wonder just how much damage it would really cause?

But,as has been pointed out,long term, the Sox do not have a power-hitting left fielder to replace Dayan anyway,so it would just be opening up one position problem by trying to solve another.

Now,in theory, if we had a healthy Carlos Quentin in left, Dayan at third,and Dunn at DH...along with PK at first, you have the requisite number of power hitters to survive in the AL.

DSpivack
05-17-2012, 12:04 PM
No doubt, but it's not like this is a White Sox only approach

Though, Trumbo currently leads the Angels in HR and RBI so they have to find a way to keep that bat in the lineup, considering they have been shut out 8 times already, most in the MLB.

Yeah, with Morales, Trumbo & Pujols, they're not unlike the Tigers with 3 1B/DH types (at least next season when they get Martinez back); the difference being that in Detroit all 3 have very expensive contracts.

Although maybe you could argue the same of the White Sox, throwing in Viciedo with Konerko & Dunn. Assuming Viciedo can hit...

TDog
05-17-2012, 12:12 PM
What the hell- we put Kenny Williams at 3rd base, Carlton Fisk in LF, Rob Machowiak in CF and Ron Santo at 2nd base.

But this is no time to mess with Viciedo- I think he can be a "plus" LF with that arm and once he gets 100 games under his belt.

It's a shame its not a realistic option- we have a few outfield prospects in the system- but the cupboard is bare for 3rd base and has been since Crede's back went south.

The White Sox put Jorge Orta at third. They put Mike Andrews at third when he couldn't throw after injuring his arm. Chet Lemon actually came up as a third baseman. The 1970s was such a frustrating time to be a White Sox fan. I thought the White Sox were going to develop Viciedo into a third baseman the way the Giants developed Pablo Sandoval into a pretty good third baseman, although Sandoval occasionally shows he isn't totally over the learning curve. The White Sox ended up sticking Viciedo in the outfield because it was a quicker way to bring his bat to the majors. They seem to have given up on any hopes of teaching him to be a third baseman.

Paul Konerko would make a better third baseman than Viciedo. Not that he should. Konerko hasn't played third base for the White Sox since 2000.

doublem23
05-17-2012, 12:14 PM
Paul Konerko would make a better third baseman than Viciedo.

I sincerely doubt that

hawkjt
05-17-2012, 12:24 PM
Who would be the worse defender at their new position, Tank at 3rd,or Dunn in left?

Now, I realize that third base is a whole different level of importance defensively,than left field,but I guess I am wondering how bad Dunn will be in left also.
I just hope that Adam does not get hurt out there,or get embarrassed.
I suspect he will only play out there vs Dempster and Samarjia,the two rightys?

But,still have 6 more inter-league road games...so he better get ready.

central44
05-17-2012, 12:28 PM
For 9 games, it doesn't sound like that big of a deal to me as long as he's still capable of playing the position. It's not like he's being asked to split time between 3rd and LF for an entire season--just for a couple of games.

I'm sure he won't forget how to play LF

Foulke You
05-17-2012, 12:35 PM
For 9 games, it doesn't sound like that big of a deal to me as long as he's still capable of playing the position. It's not like he's being asked to split time between 3rd and LF for an entire season--just for a couple of games.

I'm sure he won't forget how to play LF

I agree. It is fine for interleague to get his bat in there. Put him back in LF as soon as AL play resumes. He would be fine.

Domeshot17
05-17-2012, 12:49 PM
I don't know, part of me says anything that ends this disaster of the Brent Morel experiment is good, but not at Tank's long term expense.

That said, The Sox do need to find a long term answer at both 2b and 3b. You can't have 2 guys in the offense with absolutely no offensive value. Beckham and Morel are just bad.

kufram
05-17-2012, 01:25 PM
Viciedo has just started to have good at bats. I say don't give him something else to think about. He's going to be our left fielder so let him play left field. His range can be coped with in my opinion and I don't get the impression that he has been horrible out there.

Not so long ago, post Crede obviously, all people wanted from 3B was someone to catch the bloody ball. Morel is ugly at the plate but he's what we've got.

I suggest turning the head away or grabbing a beer when he's at bat. If he gets on it's a nice surprise to come back to. I would not be totally shocked if Viciedo and Beckham actually are up and running (only time will tell) we can carry Morel's bat rather shake 2 or 3 positions up to get rid of it and then have a problem at third.

Dunn in left sounds like a disaster waiting for the worst time to happen.

I know instinct says to jump from the sinking ship but if the other ships around you are floundering too you might as well ride it out for a while longer.

TDog
05-17-2012, 01:26 PM
I sincerely doubt that

Konerko fields ground balls well at first base and can throw. Footspeed isn't an issue at third. I think Konerko might look less lost at third than Viciedo. But it's probably a moot point because I don't see the White Sox moving Viciedo to third. And I certainly don't see Ventura playing Konerko at third.

Playing players out of position is a risk. Third base is a unique position. There have been good shortstops -- Ernie Banks for one -- who haven't been able to make the transition to third base. Some players have the skills to play where they lack experience. Others do not. First baseman/outfielder Aubrey Huff played two thirds of an inning at second base in a game against the Mets this year when the Giants ran out of middle infielders. He failed to cover second on a potential double play grounder to short, and the Giants lost the game (hence the incomplete inning). The following stint on the disabled list with "anxiety disorder" may have been unrelated.

slavko
05-17-2012, 01:42 PM
Konerko fields ground balls well at first base and can throw. Footspeed isn't an issue at third. I think Konerko might look less lost at third than Viciedo. But it's probably a moot point because I don't see the White Sox moving Viciedo to third. And I certainly don't see Ventura playing Konerko at third.

Interesting, never thought about it before, but 1B skills are closer to 3B than SS is to 3B. Fielding bunts, being ready for the hot one-hopper or line drive. How much more than fall-down range do you need? It's reaction time, not footspeed.

But having to think about two positions might ruin Paulie's hitting skills.

doublem23
05-17-2012, 01:48 PM
Interesting, never thought about it before, but 1B skills are closer to 3B than SS is to 3B. Fielding bunts, being ready for the hot one-hopper or line drive. How much more than fall-down range do you need? It's reaction time, not footspeed.

But having to think about two positions might ruin Paulie's hitting skills.

Range is still very important at 3B. Really the only thing Konerko does well at 1B is he digs balls out of the dirt LIKE A BOSS. Everything else is easily below average. The thought of Konerko trying to barehand a slow roller up the 3B line literally makes me laugh out loud.

Whatever Viciedo would lack in skills at 3B he would be able to make up for in his infinitely better athleticism.

kufram
05-17-2012, 01:49 PM
I hate the fact that lineups have to jump through hoops to play interleague... on both sides. If you are going to have interleague play wouldn't be a good idea to have both leagues play the same rules?

Isn't interleague play increasing? It's a joke to have to juggle mlb players for certain games in the year.

TDog
05-17-2012, 02:26 PM
Range is still very important at 3B. Really the only thing Konerko does well at 1B is he digs balls out of the dirt LIKE A BOSS. Everything else is easily below average. The thought of Konerko trying to barehand a slow roller up the 3B line literally makes me laugh out loud.

Whatever Viciedo would lack in skills at 3B he would be able to make up for in his infinitely better athleticism.

It is not uncommon for the slowest player on a team to be a third baseman. In 2000, Herbert Perry was the slower than Konerko or any of the catchers. Ron Santo was considered a pretty good third baseman, and didn't have speed. Range at third is more a matter of quickness than speed.

As much as I wouldn't want to see Konerko at third, I think his experience on the infield would give him an edge over Viciedo. Konerko would react better to balls hit off the bat. He would be quicker. Konerko played a lot of third base in the minors, more than Viciedo, although it was over a decade ago. The Reds were grooming Konerko to be a third baseman but also played him in left and at first when they brought him up to get his bat in the lineup. Had Konerko been the answer at third, the White Sox wouldn't have needed to claim Perry off of waivers in 2000.

Whether Viciedo or Konerko were playing third, you would see bunts up the third base line to test them. And I think both results would both be bad news for the White Sox.

doublem23
05-17-2012, 02:30 PM
Viciedo played 3B in Cuba for years, didn't he? Not only is Viciedo clearly the superior choice at 3B over Konerko, moving Konerko to 3B and then moving Dunn or Viciedo to 1B would degrade the IF defense at both corners instead of just 1. It's a silly idea that I am certain nobody in the organization is entertaining.

DSpivack
05-17-2012, 02:31 PM
Viciedo played 3B in Cuba for years, didn't he? He would obviously be a better 3B than Konerko.

It has nothing to do with Konerko, but in 140 career games in the minor leagues at 3B, Viciedo had 33 errors.

doublem23
05-17-2012, 02:36 PM
It has nothing to do with Konerko, but in 140 career games in the minor leagues at 3B, Viciedo had 33 errors.

Oh, I know. FWIW, Konerko had 26 errors at 3B in 174 career games between the minors and Majors. And of course, hasn't played the position in 12 seasons.

Neither is a great option, but put a gun to my head, and Dayan is the choice 11 times out of 10.

SI1020
05-17-2012, 02:37 PM
It has nothing to do with Konerko, but in 140 career games in the minor leagues at 3B, Viciedo had 33 errors. I tried to stay out of this one, because it appeared to be a losing proposition for dissenters, but Viciedo's performance at 3b in the minors was beyond abysmal. I think his best bet is to leave him where he is, and hope that he hits as advertised.

cards press box
05-17-2012, 02:38 PM
How about this:

(1) Put Morel on the DL with his bad back and/or send him to AAA to work on his offensive game;

(2) Call up Dan Johnson and put him at 3B;

(3) Keep Tank in LF; and

(4) For the Friday and Saturday games at Wrigley -- when the Cubs will start a right hander -- sit Tank one day and put Dunn in LF and sit Rios the other day and put Dunn in RF.

How does that sound?

sullythered
05-17-2012, 03:00 PM
How about this:

(1) Put Morel on the DL with his bad back and/or send him to AAA to work on his offensive game;

(2) Call up Dan Johnson and put him at 3B;

(3) Keep Tank in LF; and

(4) For the Friday and Saturday games at Wrigley -- when the Cubs will start a right hander -- sit Tank one day and put Dunn in LF and sit Rios the other day and put Dunn in RF.

How does that sound?
Logical.

thomas35forever
05-17-2012, 03:14 PM
Are people really suggesting Konerko play third, which he hasn't since 2000? At this stage in his career no less? Why not just reacquire Thome from the Phillies and see what he's got left at that position? Couldn't hurt, right?

DSpivack
05-17-2012, 03:16 PM
Are people really suggesting Konerko play third, which he hasn't since 2000? At this stage in his career no less? Why not just reacquire Thome from the Phillies and see what he's got left at that position? Couldn't hurt, right?

I don't see anyone suggesting that.

TomBradley72
05-17-2012, 03:39 PM
How about this:

(1) Put Morel on the DL with his bad back and/or send him to AAA to work on his offensive game;

(2) Call up Dan Johnson and put him at 3B;

(3) Keep Tank in LF; and

(4) For the Friday and Saturday games at Wrigley -- when the Cubs will start a right hander -- sit Tank one day and put Dunn in LF and sit Rios the other day and put Dunn in RF.

How does that sound?

The Dan Johnson move makes sense- I'd have him replace Fukudome on the roster- mix him in at 3rd/LF vs. RH's. He's hitting .301 at AAA.

I'd prefer we keep Dunn out of the outfield-maybe play him one day vs. a RH at 1st base- the upside he brings is not worth the downside on defense along with the risk of injury.

I feel bad for Danks when all those Cubs RH pull hitters start hitting the ball in Dunn's direction.

Noneck
05-17-2012, 05:16 PM
Can Dayan get by at third?

Sure if nothing is hit that way.

balke
05-17-2012, 05:33 PM
Viciedo is awful at 3B and 2 good games don't make up entirely for a pretty bad hitting season for him so far. If the Sox want to upgrade the offense at 3B they should find a 3Bman who hits better - not force a guy who can't play the position.

TDog
05-17-2012, 05:38 PM
Viciedo played 3B in Cuba for years, didn't he? Not only is Viciedo clearly the superior choice at 3B over Konerko, moving Konerko to 3B and then moving Dunn or Viciedo to 1B would degrade the IF defense at both corners instead of just 1. It's a silly idea that I am certain nobody in the organization is entertaining.

As I understand it, Viciedo played third base in the minors as if he had never played third base. I didn't mean to start a debate over whether Konerko or Viciedo would be better choices for third base. I think moving Viciedo to third would be at least as silly as moving Viciedo to third.

I like and respect Chuck, but I just don't see Ventura starting Viciedo at third base.

Lamp81
05-17-2012, 10:48 PM
Here are my thoughts:

It appears that Dan Johnson is being moved to 3rd at AAA, so Morel should be feeling the heat. Johnson has mostly been a 4A player for his career, much like Dallas McPherson, who is on the AAA DL.

I'm in favor of Viciedo at 3rd for Interleague play, at least for a few of the NL Park games.

For those of you who are saying that he shouldn't be moved out of LF, as he is just starting to hit, and that wouldscrew up his hitting, what do you think getting 1 PH appearance/NL Park game is going to do to his hitting?

Play him at 3rd, give him 2-3 ABs/game, and then put Morel in for defensive purposes. Viciedo can then replace Dunn in LF or can go to bench and have Fukudome/Lillibridge replace Dunn late in games.

If Beckham and Ramirez would start hitting, we could fade Morel at 3rd, for his defense. We can't have 3 out of 4 infielders, as defense only.

Daver
05-17-2012, 11:13 PM
A left side defense of Viciedo and Dunn would be an absolute hoot to watch, I might have to have someone tape it for me if it happens.

kufram
05-18-2012, 04:12 AM
Here are my thoughts:

It appears that Dan Johnson is being moved to 3rd at AAA, so Morel should be feeling the heat. Johnson has mostly been a 4A player for his career, much like Dallas McPherson, who is on the AAA DL.

I'm in favor of Viciedo at 3rd for Interleague play, at least for a few of the NL Park games.

For those of you who are saying that he shouldn't be moved out of LF, as he is just starting to hit, and that wouldscrew up his hitting, what do you think getting 1 PH appearance/NL Park game is going to do to his hitting?

Play him at 3rd, give him 2-3 ABs/game, and then put Morel in for defensive purposes. Viciedo can then replace Dunn in LF or can go to bench and have Fukudome/Lillibridge replace Dunn late in games.

If Beckham and Ramirez would start hitting, we could fade Morel at 3rd, for his defense. We can't have 3 out of 4 infielders, as defense only.


It isn't the PH appearance that matters. He's what, 23? First full season in the majors and only just started looking dangerous at the plate so make him think about playing 3rd instead of keeping him as comfortable as possible so that he can progress?

If mlb are going have interleague play for God's sake make the rules the same for both leagues!

TomBradley72
05-18-2012, 06:56 AM
Here are my thoughts:

It appears that Dan Johnson is being moved to 3rd at AAA, so Morel should be feeling the heat. Johnson has mostly been a 4A player for his career, much like Dallas McPherson, who is on the AAA DL.

I'm in favor of Viciedo at 3rd for Interleague play, at least for a few of the NL Park games.

For those of you who are saying that he shouldn't be moved out of LF, as he is just starting to hit, and that wouldscrew up his hitting, what do you think getting 1 PH appearance/NL Park game is going to do to his hitting?

Play him at 3rd, give him 2-3 ABs/game, and then put Morel in for defensive purposes. Viciedo can then replace Dunn in LF or can go to bench and have Fukudome/Lillibridge replace Dunn late in games.

If Beckham and Ramirez would start hitting, we could fade Morel at 3rd, for his defense. We can't have 3 out of 4 infielders, as defense only.

No way- a 23 yo in his first full big league season- finally starting to turn the corner with the bat- hasn't taken infield practice since he as was an infielder in 2010- let's put him in at 3rd base at Wrigley Field in front of sell out crowds and national TV- no way.

All this to get Dunn a few extra ABs over 2 games? (no reason to even consider forcing Dunn into the line up vs. a LH on Sunday)

Let Viciedo sit one day so Dunn gets one start- leave it at that.

Frater Perdurabo
05-18-2012, 07:42 AM
I agree with whoever suggested resting Viciedo Friday, Rios Saturday, and Dunn Sunday.

doublem23
05-18-2012, 08:18 AM
I agree with whoever suggested resting Viciedo Friday, Rios Saturday, and Dunn Sunday.

We'll see how it works out, but if you take Rios out Sunday then you either have Viciedo and Dunn in the OF or Konerko on the bench, too.

I hate the NL

TomBradley72
05-18-2012, 08:22 AM
Dunn is having a very nice season- but doing all these contortions to get a .250 hitter who strikes out a ton into 1-2 games (at the expense of our defense and other hitters who are doing well- Dayan/Rios/PK) is overkill.

hawkjt
05-18-2012, 09:11 AM
Robin is saying probably Tank sits all weekend....hope Tank keeps his flow going after going 9 for his last 18 with 3 homers in the last three games. Probably get a pinch-hitting chance,and then hopefully, Robin will sit Dunn vs the lefty Maholm on Sunday and have Tank in there.

Samardjia is a fastballing righty so Dunn is probably the better pick today.
Dempster is a sinkerballing righty so again,Dunn seems to be the right choice.

I just hope that Adam does not hurt the Sox or get hurt playing left.

SI1020
05-18-2012, 01:09 PM
We'll see how it works out, but if you take Rios out Sunday then you either have Viciedo and Dunn in the OF or Konerko on the bench, too.

I hate the NL I'm an OF baseball purist but you're right these interleague games make a hash of things. Time to go one way or the other, which probably means DH for everyone.