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View Full Version : Sale back to the rotation?


Harry Chappas
05-09-2012, 10:06 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/12406447-419/white-sox-beat-indians-in-10-chris-sale-wants-to-start.html

This is one of the stranger stories concerning the Sox that I can recall. According to Sale, his arm feels great. According to Cooper, nothing about his motion/delivery portends to future problems. He likened Sale's "break" from the rotation to Neftali Feliz, who got pushed back a few days but remains a starter. Coop said "He [Sale] wants to start. I want him to start." Cooper went on to say that a move back to the rotation is a possibility and yet Ventura said Sale to the pen was permanent, at least as far as this season is concerned.

All of which begs the question, what the heck is going on here? I hate to continue to beat a dead horse, but this is the type of Micky Mouse stuff that has become all too common with this organization.

DonnieDarko
05-09-2012, 10:09 AM
I think what happened is that the guys in charge realized that Reed was too good to not let him close (at least so far). Sale needs to do something, and is too good to just be left in a relief role...so they put him back into the rotation.

Now about the injury concerns...we'll see if anything comes of it, but I wouldn't be surprised if Sale goes on the DL this season. Or almost every season he's in the majors. That pitching motion just looks so damned painful.

Harry Chappas
05-09-2012, 10:17 AM
I think what happened is that the guys in charge realized that Reed was too good to not let him close (at least so far). Sale needs to do something, and is too good to just be left in a relief role...so they put him back into the rotation.

Now about the injury concerns...we'll see if anything comes of it, but I wouldn't be surprised if Sale goes on the DL this season. Or almost every season he's in the majors. That pitching motion just looks so damned painful.

I agree with your point about his motion, although to believe Coop, there's no issue. Who knows? Maybe Sale is one of those freaks where you can throw out the playbook and just let him do his thing but, yeah, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he develops problems. Then again, he might suffer the same fate coming out of the pen.

But to your first point, the Sox can ill afford to lose starters. Up until now, Sale was our #2. A rotation without him in it becomes decidedly average.

hawkjt
05-09-2012, 10:22 AM
I agree that this little soap opera is very confusing.
But, I will also say the most important factoid,if true, is that Sale is not injured,or hurting. That would be huge. The kid has great stuff,and wherever he ends up pitching,he adds a great arm to the mix.

I do wonder if the speculation above about Reed might be true.
Using Sale as a setup man seems wasteful.
I also wonder if Quintana's nice outing opened a few eyes to maybe keeping him around as a lefty out of the bullpen.
The Sox need Thornton to straighten out,and have some good outings,so that by June he is attractive on the market...and hope that between Stults and Quintana ,they can fill that void. Crain needs to get back,and let Jones and Reed settle into roles. If it all shook out well in the bullpen,then Sale in the rotation would be good. Everyone knew his innings would be limited this year as a starter,so maybe this just ends up being one of a couple of ''breaks'' for Chris. Skip him once a month or so,and keep him to 150 innings.

Harry Chappas
05-09-2012, 10:26 AM
I agree that this little soap opera is very confusing.
But, I will also say the most important factoid,if true, is that Sale is not injured,or hurting. That would be huge. The kid has great stuff,and wherever he ends up pitching,he adds a great arm to the mix.

I do wonder if the speculation above about Reed might be true.
Using Sale as a setup man seems wasteful.
I also wonder if Quintana's nice outing opened a few eyes to maybe keeping him around as a lefty out of the bullpen.
The Sox need Thornton to straighten out,and have some good outings,so that by June he is attractive on the market...and hope that between Stults and Quintana ,they can fill that void. Crain needs to get back,and let Jones and Reed settle into roles. If it all shook out well in the bullpen,then Sale in the rotation would be good. Everyone knew his innings would be limited this year as a starter,so maybe this just ends up being one of a couple of ''breaks'' for Chris. Skip him once a month or so,and keep him to 150 innings.

I think that's the part that was confusing. Rather than rush him to the pen, I figured they'd have him miss an odd start here and there and keep his innings/PC down. You can tell by his reaction that he was as puzzled/surprised as the fans.

russ99
05-09-2012, 10:29 AM
I think that's the part that was confusing. Rather than rush him to the pen, I figured they'd have him miss an odd start here and there and keep his innings/PC down. You can tell by his reaction that he was as puzzled/surprised as the fans.

Also, if Coop is seemingly OK with him starting, then where did all this come from?

102605
05-09-2012, 10:31 AM
:scratch:

I do like Addison Reed as the closer.

That is all.

doublem23
05-09-2012, 10:34 AM
lbNidYYGjic

Crestani
05-09-2012, 10:37 AM
Also, if Coop is seemingly OK with him starting, then where did all this come from?



Coop maybe talking, but Kenny Williams is doing the speaking...!!!

asindc
05-09-2012, 10:39 AM
Yep, this is confusing to say the least. I will look at the positive here. Coop says he does not think Sale has an injury problem right now. I hope to see him back the rotation soon, as having him as our #2/#3 gives us the best shot to compete, pitching-wise.

doublem23
05-09-2012, 10:47 AM
I think that's the part that was confusing. Rather than rush him to the pen, I figured they'd have him miss an odd start here and there and keep his innings/PC down. You can tell by his reaction that he was as puzzled/surprised as the fans.

Hopefully between Stults, Quintana, and Axelrod, the Sox feel they have a guy who can take an occasional start off of Sale's plate here and there.

Frankly, between trying to keep Sale's innings down, the ever-present Jake Peavy injury risk, and Phil Humber's post-Perfect Game ****-A-Thon, perhaps the Sox would benefit to go to a 6th starter occassionally and get these guys an extra day of rest. Couldn't hurt. :dunno:

KMcMahon817
05-09-2012, 11:02 AM
Sale moving back to the rotation would get me giddy and give me a totally renewed sense of optimism.

Maybe the SOX just decided to move him to the pen for a month or so to keep his innings down now rather than shutting him down in mid-August or September. More explaination of the move would have been nice, but really, Reed needs to close and Thornton/Crain need to be in the 8th inning depending on the match up. The bullpen is solid without Sale.

Crooked Number
05-09-2012, 11:04 AM
Hopefully between Stults, Quintana, and Axelrod, the Sox feel they have a guy who can take an occasional start off of Sale's plate here and there.

Frankly, between trying to keep Sale's innings down, the ever-present Jake Peavy injury risk, and Phil Humber's post-Perfect Game ****-A-Thon, perhaps the Sox would benefit to go to a 6th starter occassionally and get these guys an extra day of rest. Couldn't hurt. :dunno:

You may have captured the quandary the Sox find themselves in pretty accurately here. It's almost a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. How horrible would it be if they put Sale back in the rotation and he suffers a horrific injury? Can you play the "what if" game when it comes to winning baseball games? "What if" the Sox miss out on one of the best starters to pitch in this organization in years because they were afraid that an injury may happen. It's a tough one...

cws05champ
05-09-2012, 11:07 AM
This is ridiculous....when will teams learn that you can't jack back and forth between the bull pen and starting, especially when you have the upside that Sale has. If he was like Daniel Bard and was ideally suited for the bullpen I can see them just sticking with him there. But Sales has proven throughout his college career and in his short stint in the majors than he can pitch in the rotation.

It's pretty embarrassing for the organization for this to come out and change their minds because of the blow back from the player and fans.

LITTLE NELL
05-09-2012, 11:09 AM
This whole thing has perplexed me, does the Sox brain trust have a clue?
Whose idea was it first that Sale should be a closer? Have they talked to a doctor? Very strange.

Lip Man 1
05-09-2012, 11:23 AM
Strange indeed.

Lip

DumpJerry
05-09-2012, 11:27 AM
1. I'm pretty sure Thornton will be wearing another team's uni before the season is over.

2. Sale has had this delivery for many years and there has been no known history of injury for him. Why are people (none of whom, as far as I can tell, are Ortho doctors) so convinced that he will be injured to the point that a trip to the DL will be an annual event?

KMcMahon817
05-09-2012, 11:27 AM
Nice article by Jim Margalus over at Southside Sox about it.

More speculation, but I think he makes some good points, as usual.

http://www.southsidesox.com/2012/5/9/3008943/what-are-the-white-sox-doing-with-chris-sale

Hitmen77
05-09-2012, 11:33 AM
d0VNHe5fq30

doublem23
05-09-2012, 11:33 AM
You may have captured the quandary the Sox find themselves in pretty accurately here. It's almost a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. How horrible would it be if they put Sale back in the rotation and he suffers a horrific injury? Can you play the "what if" game when it comes to winning baseball games? "What if" the Sox miss out on one of the best starters to pitch in this organization in years because they were afraid that an injury may happen. It's a tough one...

The three most important things the Sox need to do in 2012 in regards to their pitching staff is:

A) Protect Sale's arm while preparing him as a full-time starter (if that's still the long-term plan). John Danks, who was a top SP prospect before his MLB debut in 2007, had started 74 games and threw just north of 400 innings for the Rangers' minor league teams from '04-'06 and even he still broke down during his 1st season in the Majors, starting only 26 G, throwing 139 innings, and effectively being shut down by the end of August. I have no doubts that Sale is not going to make it to September 30 this season. Starting every 5th day in the Majors is too demanding on your body. Whatever the Sox need to do to protect him this year, be that skipping starts, an IP cap, whatever, is fine as long as he gets through the season unscathed.

B) Keeping Peavy and Floyd healthy this so they can be the centerpieces of some blockbuster deals this June and July and help restock the farm system.

C) Screw Danks' head on again.

If they can accomplish these three goals this year, 2012 will be a smash success.

SCCWS
05-09-2012, 11:36 AM
I hope they have a plan if Reed doesn't work out.

ChiSoxGal85
05-09-2012, 11:37 AM
I am really confused.

Also, I don't remember Kenny saying anything about the Sale situation...can anyone enlighten me, or have a link? Actually, Kenny hasn't been saying much of anything lately...

#1swisher
05-09-2012, 12:01 PM
Daryl Van Schouwen


http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/12406447-574/white-sox-beat-indians-in-10-chris-sale-wants-to-start.html


Scott Merkin

Sale screaming into his mitt as leaves the mound. Game tied at 3-3.

15h

DonnieDarko
05-09-2012, 12:05 PM
Daryl Van Schouwen


http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/12406447-574/white-sox-beat-indians-in-10-chris-sale-wants-to-start.html


Scott Merkin

Sale screaming into his mitt as leaves the mound. Game tied at 3-3.

15h

Screaming in rage, not in pain, right? >_>

DumpJerry
05-09-2012, 12:17 PM
Daryl Van Schouwen


http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/12406447-574/white-sox-beat-indians-in-10-chris-sale-wants-to-start.html


Scott Merkin

Sale screaming into his mitt as leaves the mound. Game tied at 3-3.

15h
At least he did not throw it into the seats.

JB98
05-09-2012, 12:27 PM
Sale moving back to the rotation would get me giddy and give me a totally renewed sense of optimism.

Maybe the SOX just decided to move him to the pen for a month or so to keep his innings down now rather than shutting him down in mid-August or September. More explaination of the move would have been nice, but really, Reed needs to close and Thornton/Crain need to be in the 8th inning depending on the match up. The bullpen is solid without Sale.

I don't know that I'll ever be giddy about the 2012 Sox, but there's no question in my mind this club has a better chance to compete if Sale is in the rotation.

There is no reason Reed shouldn't be given the opportunity to close. He has the stuff. Let's find out if he has the mentality. I think he does.

kobo
05-09-2012, 12:37 PM
It seems that they just don't know what to do with Sale, or KW and Robin/Coop disagree with the plan for Sale. From what I gathered from spring training it was the plan all along to monitor Sale and keep his pitches and innings down this year. If that was the plan in place coming out of ST then why wasn't Sale just made the 5th starter? Why let him throw 100+ pitches in his first few starts? If he was made the 5th starter out of ST then they could skip him every now and then and not have to come up with another plan to monitor Sale. It makes no sense what they are doing, but this is just par for the course lately with this organization.

35th and Shields
05-09-2012, 01:06 PM
Nice article by Jim Margalus over at Southside Sox about it.

More speculation, but I think he makes some good points, as usual.

http://www.southsidesox.com/2012/5/9/3008943/what-are-the-white-sox-doing-with-chris-sale


Very poor management shown by the SOX again and if, god forbid, something doss happen to Sale they have no one to blame but themselves. You can't be jerking around a young pitcher with an odd motion from starting, to the bullpen, and then back to the rotation.

delben91
05-09-2012, 01:14 PM
In yet another twist, Tribune now reporting Sale will undergo an MRI on his left arm today.

Link (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-soxs-sale-to-undergo-mri-on-left-arm-20120509,0,7661412.story)

JB98
05-09-2012, 01:32 PM
So, Sale is "feeling great right now," but he's also having an MRI done? :scratch:

chisox12
05-09-2012, 01:40 PM
In yet another twist, Tribune now reporting Sale will undergo an MRI on his left arm today.

Link (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-soxs-sale-to-undergo-mri-on-left-arm-20120509,0,7661412.story)


What the hell is going on here?? :scratch::scratch::scratch:

jdm2662
05-09-2012, 01:47 PM
There is obviously much more to this story than we are told. Maybe you should all wait until all the facts come out before commenting further.

hawkjt
05-09-2012, 01:52 PM
Clear as mud.
:?:

I just hope the MRI goes well.
Maybe Coop should just stop talking for now,eh?

1989
05-09-2012, 01:57 PM
In yet another twist, Tribune now reporting Sale will undergo an MRI on his left arm today.

Link (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-soxs-sale-to-undergo-mri-on-left-arm-20120509,0,7661412.story)

This should have been the FIRST thing done as soon as there was 'tenderness' felt in the elbow. Nope, lets move Sale to closer where he now has to exert more energy and pressure on every pitch. That will solve things. Nothing could possibly go wrong.

doublem23
05-09-2012, 02:05 PM
This should have been the FIRST thing done as soon as there was 'tenderness' felt in the elbow. Nope, lets move Sale to closer where he now has to exert more energy and pressure on every pitch. That will solve things. Nothing could possibly go wrong.

I have never, ever seen any evidence that closing puts more strain on a pitcher than starting.

Chez
05-09-2012, 02:18 PM
This is bizarre. Seems like the left hand of the Sox organization doesn't know what the hand hand is doing. If this was happening on the North Side of town, I'd be laughing my ass off.

1989
05-09-2012, 02:19 PM
I have never, ever seen any evidence that closing puts more strain on a pitcher than starting.

Regardless, moving Sale to closer instead of immediately getting him an MRI after tenderness was discovered was a horrible decision. This guy is supposed to be a cornerstone of the franchise, you have to protect your assets.

tstrike2000
05-09-2012, 02:34 PM
I get more confused as time goes on. He has a sore elbow, so they move him to the bullpen. Then they say he might be back in the rotation. Now, he's having an MRI on his sore elbow. :?:

Chez
05-09-2012, 02:38 PM
As long as Sale is getting an MRI on his left arm, might as well do an MRI on Morel's bat. It's very, very sick.

kittle42
05-09-2012, 02:40 PM
While he's getting that elbow looked at, I burned my foot in a George Foreman Grill...

Nellie_Fox
05-09-2012, 02:53 PM
So, Sale is "feeling great right now," but he's also having an MRI done? :scratch:He certainly wouldn't be the first young player to lie about his physical status to keep the spot he wants on the team.

Brian26
05-09-2012, 03:21 PM
While he's getting that elbow looked at, I burned my foot in a George Foreman Grill...

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m246/midnitcafe/Office-TheInjury.png

"Sometimes I like to wake up to the smell of crisp bacon."

DeadMoney
05-09-2012, 03:22 PM
He certainly wouldn't be the first young player to lie about his physical status to keep the spot he wants on the team.

This certainly makes sense.

Or... Pure speculation here:
- Sale explains he's feeling some tightness to training staff.
- Training Staff/Coaching Staff discuss, and Coaching Staff feels a move to the bullpen will help him lessen this soreness (maybe even for an extended period to protect him in a year that seems to mean nothing).
- Sale is mad about the move, insisting he feels fine.
- Sale pitches poorly last night, but still insists he's fine and wants to move back to the rotation.
- As a precaution, the Training Staff/Coaching Staff/Front Office insist he get an MRI before they agree to let him back in the rotation.

Now... The coaching staff isn't going to throw a young guy, who desperately wants to be a starter, under the bus. So, they answer all of the questions honestly. It's possible that these answers have changed over the past few days. Today's news could easily be my last point... That they are thinking he may return to the rotation *if* his MRI shows no damage/issues. Who knows what's really going on, but this timeline of events seems like it could make some sense to me.

Frater Perdurabo
05-09-2012, 03:28 PM
This certainly makes sense.

Or... Pure speculation here:
- Sale explains he's feeling some tightness to training staff.
- Training Staff/Coaching Staff discuss, and Coaching Staff feels a move to the bullpen will help him lessen this soreness (maybe even for an extended period to protect him in a year that seems to mean nothing).
- Sale is mad about the move, insisting he feels fine.
- Sale pitches poorly last night, but still insists he's fine and wants to move back to the rotation.
- As a precaution, the Training Staff/Coaching Staff/Front Office insist he get an MRI before they agree to let him back in the rotation.

Now... The coaching staff isn't going to throw a young guy, who desperately wants to be a starter, under the bus. So, they answer all of the questions honestly. It's possible that these answers have changed over the past few days. Today's news could easily be my last point... That they are thinking he may return to the rotation *if* his MRI shows no damage/issues. Who knows what's really going on, but this timeline of events seems like it could make some sense to me.

This is completely plausible.

slavko
05-09-2012, 03:49 PM
In yet another twist, Tribune now reporting Sale will undergo an MRI on his left arm today.

Link (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-soxs-sale-to-undergo-mri-on-left-arm-20120509,0,7661412.story)

He certainly wouldn't be the first young player to lie about his physical status to keep the spot he wants on the team.

This is completely plausible.

You guys are good. My original thought was that they had done the tests secretly and were acting out of knowledge we didn't have. They ARE dumber than we are.

Konerko05
05-09-2012, 04:12 PM
This is one of those stories that's not going to end well.

asindc
05-09-2012, 04:36 PM
This is one of those stories that's not going to end well.

Well, thank you, Debbie Downer.

#1swisher
05-09-2012, 04:43 PM
Daryl Van Schouwen


Sale MRI on Friday in Chicago. Says he feels fine, is in very good spirits. Precautionary. Probably wont pitch tonight, tho.
20m

Everyone from front office to manager to pitching coach to sale insist Sale not hurt
10m

Ventura not big on idea of Sale starting, said it won't be his call only, tho.
5m

TDog
05-09-2012, 04:45 PM
I think what happened is that the guys in charge realized that Reed was too good to not let him close (at least so far). Sale needs to do something, and is too good to just be left in a relief role...so they put him back into the rotation.

Now about the injury concerns...we'll see if anything comes of it, but I wouldn't be surprised if Sale goes on the DL this season. Or almost every season he's in the majors. That pitching motion just looks so damned painful.

I think you may be right. It's entirely possible Ventura wanted to stop the bullpen bleeding and no longer finds that necessary. But, really, I don't know.

This sort of thing, moving starters to the bullpen briefly and back, isn't unheard of, although these days fans blow up over every comment or move.

In 1974, Jim Kaat was struggling through May. Harry Caray was screaming that he needed to be released because he could no longer pitch. Chuck Tanner and Johnny Sain moved him to the bullpen for a week, and Kaat came back one of the league's best pitchers. He ended up a 21-game winner, and six of his last seven starts were complete games, including two shutouts. The White Sox were a .500 team that year (80-80-3), so maybe no one cares.

Just because fans don't understand what is going on and the team isn't sharing the media or media insiders what is going on doen't mean management doesn't know what' they're doing.

kevingrt
05-09-2012, 04:51 PM
Daryl Van Schouwen


Sale MRI on Friday in Chicago. Says he feels fine, is in very good spirits. Precautionary. Probably wont pitch tonight, tho.
20m

Everyone from front office to manager to pitching coach to sale insist Sale not hurt
10m

Ventura not big on idea of Sale starting, said it won't be his call only, tho.
5m

Why would Ventura want him to close? Nothing makes sense in this.

Harry Chappas
05-09-2012, 05:13 PM
There is obviously much more to this story than we are told. Maybe you should all wait until all the facts come out before commenting further.

The irony in this statement is so rich that I actually laughed out loud (can't bring myself to use 'LOL'). Your advice would be best taken by the White Sox who started this whole mystery/mess by abruptly yanking their 2nd best pitcher and most promising young talent from the rotation based on what appears to be a fear of injury and then going to the press about it. They compounded the "strange" factor by then issuing statements that were completely at odds with what they had stated previously. Read the Jim Margalus article someone linked. This is so strange that to expect everyone to withhold comment is insane.

The scenario someone presented where the Sox are making his return to the starting rotation contingent upon a clean MRI makes a whole lot of sense. I would also agree that this MRI should have been done after he reported some soreness and before he was trotted out of the bullpen.

For the White Sox sake, if the MRI is fine, they had better rethink their plans to make him a reliever because the one thing that is crystal clear is that Sale wants to start. Pissing off one of the corner-pieces of your "rebuilt" team is probably not a great idea.

Harry Chappas
05-09-2012, 05:21 PM
I think you may be right. It's entirely possible Ventura wanted to stop the bullpen bleeding and no longer finds that necessary. But, really, I don't know.

This sort of thing, moving starters to the bullpen briefly and back, isn't unheard of, although these days fans blow up over every comment or move.

In 1974, Jim Kaat was struggling through May. Harry Caray was screaming that he needed to be released because he could no longer pitch. Chuck Tanner and Johnny Sain moved him to the bullpen for a week, and Kaat came back one of the league's best pitchers. He ended up a 21-game winner, and six of his last seven starts were complete games, including two shutouts. The White Sox were a .500 team that year (80-80-3), so maybe no one cares.

Just because fans don't understand what is going on and the team isn't sharing the media or media insiders what is going on doen't mean management doesn't know what' they're doing.

This is the White Sox. They haven't exactly earned the benefit of the doubt [See, Ozzie/Kenny Clown Show, 2011]. Besides, Ventura stated that the move to the pen was at least for the remainder of the season - not a week. Also, the reason for the move wasn't performance based, but rather a "concern" over an injury that hadn't occurred (otherwise he'd be on the DL not in the pen). In summary, your comparison is apples to oranges.

Tragg
05-09-2012, 05:59 PM
I think what happened is that the guys in charge realized that Reed was too good to not let him close (at least so far). Sale needs to do something, and is too good to just be left in a relief role...so they put him back into the rotation.

Now about the injury concerns...we'll see if anything comes of it, but I wouldn't be surprised if Sale goes on the DL this season. Or almost every season he's in the majors. That pitching motion just looks so damned painful.

The fact that the braintrust would think that close is more important than a starting pitcher is troubling.

TDog
05-09-2012, 06:29 PM
This is the White Sox. They haven't exactly earned the benefit of the doubt [See, Ozzie/Kenny Clown Show, 2011]. Besides, Ventura stated that the move to the pen was at least for the remainder of the season - not a week. Also, the reason for the move wasn't performance based, but rather a "concern" over an injury that hadn't occurred (otherwise he'd be on the DL not in the pen). In summary, your comparison is apples to oranges.

Most teams aren't totally forthcoming when personnel moves, and for competitive reasons they really shouldn't be. The fact is that when Sale was designated the closer, he really was never used as a closer. Even in his blown save, he wasn't broght in in the ninth inning.

I wonder today's announcement would have been made if Sale had come in last night and shut down the Indians. I wonder if Sale simply was going through a dead-arm period. No team is totally forthcoming when they make announcements. Just look at the reason the Giants eventually put Aubrey Huff on the disabled list.

This is only controversey because it is being made out to be.

Frater Perdurabo
05-09-2012, 06:41 PM
This is only controversey because it is being made out to be.

Amen.

kevingrt
05-09-2012, 08:59 PM
The fact that the braintrust would think that close is more important than a starting pitcher is troubling.

Well the position of "closer" is inherently stupid anyways. Your best reliever should be used in the highest leverage situation whether it be the 7th, 8th or 9th.

kittle42
05-09-2012, 10:15 PM
Sports execs lie like politicians. It blows.

RedHeadPaleHoser
05-10-2012, 07:33 AM
I didn't link it because A) I didn't go to the ST site to give him the hit, B) I didn't want to put this thread in the RH and C) Marriotti Jr's an ******* but on M & H this morning Hanley was saying that his article cites Sox sources that Coop was against Sale in the starting rotation....but Hanley also said that he wouldn't be surprised if JC has an axe to grind.

SI1020
05-10-2012, 08:17 AM
This is only controversey because it is being made out to be. I would beg to differ. The White Sox have been all over the map on the Sale situation. One could reasonably expect a lot of attention and controversy, and that is exactly what is happening.

kevingrt
05-10-2012, 08:37 AM
Cooper was just on Mully and Hanley this morning and got pretty heated with Mully when discussing the Sale situation. He kept on pounding on the point that Sale is in the bullpen "at this moment" and "as we speak."

I just do not understand why they did not say he has some soreness we are going to get an MRI and then skip a start?

One of the most confusing moves in my 15+ years as a White Sox fan. And it is only compounded by the fact that the media/social media nowadays is just insane.

asindc
05-10-2012, 08:55 AM
The fact that the braintrust would think that close is more important than a starting pitcher is troubling.

You don't seriously believe that the brain trust believes that, do you?

I would beg to differ. The White Sox have been all over the map on the Sale situation. One could reasonably expect a lot of attention and controversy, and that is exactly what is happening.

Expecting attention and controversy is not the same thing as not being completely honest about the situation. See below:

Most teams aren't totally forthcoming when personnel moves, and for competitive reasons they really shouldn't be. The fact is that when Sale was designated the closer, he really was never used as a closer. Even in his blown save, he wasn't broght in in the ninth inning.

I wonder today's announcement would have been made if Sale had come in last night and shut down the Indians. I wonder if Sale simply was going through a dead-arm period. No team is totally forthcoming when they make announcements. Just look at the reason the Giants eventually put Aubrey Huff on the disabled list.

This is only controversey because it is being made out to be.

I bolded, italicized, and underlined the most important part. If this is not understood, then it stands to reason that one might believe management does not know what it is doing in this case. And before anyone says "Why not just say nothing then?," ask yourself this question: Do you honestly believe no one would ask anyone in Sox management why Sale is skipping a start and then a few days later appear in a game as a setup reliever? In fact, Cooper's comments were in response to such questions. As a fan, would you be okay with him saying "No comment"? I would, but then I prefer that Sox management publicly reveal as little information to its opponents as possible. Despite my preference, I'm a realist. Public consensus compels them to reveal some information about how they do their business. I do realize, however, that they, like any other sports franchise, are not totally forthcoming in all cases. I'm good with that. Hence, no controversy as far as I'm concerned.

beasly213
05-10-2012, 09:11 AM
Cooper was just on Mully and Hanley this morning and got pretty heated with Mully when discussing the Sale situation. He kept on pounding on the point that Sale is in the bullpen "at this moment" and "as we speak."

I just do not understand why they did not say he has some soreness we are going to get an MRI and then skip a start?

One of the most confusing moves in my 15+ years as a White Sox fan. And it is only compounded by the fact that the media/social media nowadays is just insane.


Man, Cooper comes off as suuuuuch a jack ass in every interview. Maybe he should stop doing them. How many other teams have their pitching coach talk about roster decisions? Shouldn't our manager be dicussing this?

LoveYourSuit
05-10-2012, 09:14 AM
Cooper was just on Mully and Hanley this morning and got pretty heated with Mully when discussing the Sale situation. He kept on pounding on the point that Sale is in the bullpen "at this moment" and "as we speak."

I just do not understand why they did not say he has some soreness we are going to get an MRI and then skip a start?

One of the most confusing moves in my 15+ years as a White Sox fan. And it is only compounded by the fact that the media/social media nowadays is just insane.

Cooper was in his typical Ass hat mode when questioned. He is such a tool.

SI1020
05-10-2012, 09:17 AM
Yes I know baseball teams can lie, dissemble and play it close to the vest when it comes to a player's injury. Sorry I am unmoved. The entire situation has the scent of chaos, and confusion. A lack of consensus.

TaylorStSox
05-10-2012, 09:22 AM
This is the White Sox. They haven't exactly earned the benefit of the doubt [See, Ozzie/Kenny Clown Show, 2011]. Besides, Ventura stated that the move to the pen was at least for the remainder of the season - not a week. Also, the reason for the move wasn't performance based, but rather a "concern" over an injury that hadn't occurred (otherwise he'd be on the DL not in the pen). In summary, your comparison is apples to oranges.

You mean the same White Sox team that has a pretty unbelievable record of keeping pitchers healthy? If you guys want gossip, I'm pretty sure TMZ's on about 8 times a day. God forbid they're overly cautious with one of their bigger investments, in a year where this team isn't going anywhere.

sox1970
05-10-2012, 09:39 AM
Cooper interview. It's 14 min. I could only get through 4.
He's an idiot.
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/?podcast_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.podtrac.com%2Fpts%2F redirect.mp3%2Fnyc.podcast.play.it%2Fmedia%2Fd0%2F d0%2Fd1%2Fd0%2FdG%2FdW%2Fd8%2F10GW8_3.MP3%3Fauthto k%3D5561768575637172886_JfGqOrxzHVczTA8BAA8p2vYVjk&podcast_name=Don+Cooper+on+the+Mully+and+Hanley+Sh ow&podcast_artist=Mully+and+Hanley&station_id=391&tag=pages&dcid=CBS.CHI

TaylorStSox
05-10-2012, 09:41 AM
In this thread, agenda's are obvious.

tstrike2000
05-10-2012, 09:48 AM
Maybe, Dr. Andrews will give us a 2-for-1 special on surgeries and Chicago can package DRose's knee and Tommy John for Sale.

hawkjt
05-10-2012, 09:48 AM
Stuff that matters:

1. Sale is getting an MRI today,and they find out if he has any damage.
In the end, this is what really matters in this whole kerfluffle.

2. Kenny,Coop,Robin and Sale will get together on Friday and assess the situation with medical info in hand and decide how to proceed.

I just hope he is healthy...all the rest is chit-chat sportsradio blather.

As we all know,the Sox do a great job keeping their pitchers healthy,and I trust them implicitly in this area.

sox1970
05-10-2012, 09:51 AM
Man, Cooper comes off as suuuuuch a jack ass in every interview. Maybe he should stop doing them. How many other teams have their pitching coach talk about roster decisions? Shouldn't our manager be dicussing this?

I agree about Coop. When he first was on the radio, he was kind of a character, funny, and insightful about pitching.

I appreciate what he's done with some pitchers. He's good at what he does. But the 05 championship and the subsequent praise has made him an arrogant ass. Every interview is a struggle. He's defensive from the time they say good morning. I mean, what's the point in having him on the air if he's going to treat people like that, all while not giving truthful answers?

kevingrt
05-10-2012, 09:58 AM
I agree about Coop. When he first was on the radio, he was kind of a character, funny, and insightful about pitching.

I appreciate what he's done with some pitchers. He's good at what he does. But the 05 championship and the subsequent praise has made him an arrogant ass. Every interview is a struggle. He's defensive from the time they say good morning. I mean, what's the point in having him on the air if he's going to treat people like that, all while not giving truthful answers?

Completely agree. I love Coop as a pitching coach and respect everything he does with the Sox staff. But please Sox PR get him off these radio apperances. He comes off as a jerk and does not need to represent the White Sox. Let Robin make the calls and be the voice of the team, and then have KW make is monthly appearances before certain games in the dugout. Cooper has no clue how he appears to fans and the national media. Please Boyer and Reifert get this guy off the radio and TV. Keep him at what he does best... being the White Sox pitching coach.

DSpivack
05-10-2012, 10:01 AM
I agree about Coop. When he first was on the radio, he was kind of a character, funny, and insightful about pitching.

I appreciate what he's done with some pitchers. He's good at what he does. But the 05 championship and the subsequent praise has made him an arrogant ass. Every interview is a struggle. He's defensive from the time they say good morning. I mean, what's the point in having him on the air if he's going to treat people like that, all while not giving truthful answers?

I don't care if he's an arrogant ass or isn't completely forthright in interviews, as long as he remains the best pitching coach in baseball.

Tragg
05-10-2012, 10:06 AM
Well the position of "closer" is inherently stupid anyways. Your best reliever should be used in the highest leverage situation whether it be the 7th, 8th or 9th.

I agree with that. Closer is usually brought in in one of the least leveraged situations.
I still think, however, that you need to make sure that your closer has a set of stones, although it's otherwise unnecessary for him to be one of your top 2 relievers.

You don't seriously believe that the brain trust believes that, do you?
Honestly, it's hard to tell what their philosophy is.

hawkjt
05-10-2012, 10:19 AM
Completely agree. I love Coop as a pitching coach and respect everything he does with the Sox staff. But please Sox PR get him off these radio apperances. He comes off as a jerk and does not need to represent the White Sox. Let Robin make the calls and be the voice of the team, and then have KW make is monthly appearances before certain games in the dugout. Cooper has no clue how he appears to fans and the national media. Please Boyer and Reifert get this guy off the radio and TV. Keep him at what he does best... being the White Sox pitching coach.


These are paid spots by Coop,and I ,for one, like to hear from him.
He is irrascible at times,no doubt, but most of the time he does give some insight into what is happening on the pitching staff. In the end,this is an entertainment industry,and clamming up about the product does not serve the organization well either. Robin does virtually no interviews,and I understand that also, as he is just getting his feet wet. Robin does not do well in interviews,imo,anyway.
I guess I do not believe in hiding the product away from the media as long as it is positive reinforcement of Sox baseball. Some might think that Coop is not that,but I disagree. He is an old-school baseball guy,so not fancy nor slick,but he offers a peek into the engine of any good baseball team,the pitching staff,and most weeks is not yelling at anyone.

Hanley is a jerk anyway,so screw him. Mully is a moody dark irishman,who gets very gloomy himself...and no one points the finger at them for their role when these interviews go off the track?

DonnieDarko
05-10-2012, 10:21 AM
Hanley is a jerk anyway,so screw him. Mully is a moody dark irishman,who gets very gloomy himself...and no one points the finger at them for their role when these interviews go off the track?


...the hell does that have to do with anything?

sox1970
05-10-2012, 10:23 AM
These are paid spots by Coop,and I ,for one, like to hear from him.
He is irrascible at times,no doubt, but most of the time he does give some insight into what is happening on the pitching staff. In the end,this is an entertainment industry,and clamming up about the product does not serve the organization well either. Robin does virtually no interviews,and I understand that also, as he is just getting his feet wet. Robin does not do well in interviews,imo,anyway.
I guess I do not believe in hiding the product away from the media as long as it is positive reinforcement of Sox baseball. Some might think that Coop is not that,but I disagree. He is an old-school baseball guy,so not fancy nor slick,but he offers a peek into the engine of any good baseball team,the pitching staff,and most weeks is not yelling at anyone.

Hanley is a jerk anyway,so screw him. Mully is a moody dark irishman,who gets very gloomy himself...and no one points the finger at them for their role when these interviews go off the track?

I'll agree about Mully and Hanley. I'm not fans of their's either. But he's like this in EVERY interview. If it's a chemistry issue with M&H, then he should mix it up with McNiel&Spiegel and B&B. Right now, Cooper says nothing in these interviews that I believe.

Harry Chappas
05-10-2012, 10:25 AM
You mean the same White Sox team that has a pretty unbelievable record of keeping pitchers healthy? If you guys want gossip, I'm pretty sure TMZ's on about 8 times a day. God forbid they're overly cautious with one of their bigger investments, in a year where this team isn't going anywhere.

Totally ridiculous. "Overly cautious" involves getting an MRI done as soon as Sale confessed to unusual soreness and awaiting the results before making any decisions. On what planet does the cautious approach entail moving him to the pen and then have him pitch only to get an MRI done a week later?

Also, I'm not sure where I would look it up, but I'm not sure the Sox are any better than any other team in terms of keeping their pitchers healthy. Injuries have more to do with genetics and bad luck than any magical coaching/training methods.

People are posting here because Sale represents a ray of hope for a team lacking in young talent, not because they enjoy rumors and innuendo. What's the point of a message board if not to offer opinion or discuss the team?

SI1020
05-10-2012, 10:29 AM
People are posting here because Sale represents a ray of hope for a team lacking in young talent, not because they enjoy rumors and innuendo. What's the point of a message board if not to offer opinion or discuss the team? I was thinking of a reply to the "agendas" thing but this will do just fine.

doublem23
05-10-2012, 10:41 AM
Also, I'm not sure where I would look it up, but I'm not sure the Sox are any better than any other team in terms of keeping their pitchers healthy. Injuries have more to do with genetics and bad luck than any magical coaching/training methods.


They are, over the past decade or so the Sox's track record of keeping players in general healthy is extraordinary, far and away the best in the Majors. The Sox are #1 in fewest DL days used over that time span and I believe the gap between #1 and #2 was equal to the gap between #2 and IIRC #20.

shingo10
05-10-2012, 10:51 AM
Cooper interview. It's 14 min. I could only get through 4.
He's an idiot.
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/?podcast_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.podtrac.com%2Fpts%2F redirect.mp3%2Fnyc.podcast.play.it%2Fmedia%2Fd0%2F d0%2Fd1%2Fd0%2FdG%2FdW%2Fd8%2F10GW8_3.MP3%3Fauthto k%3D5561768575637172886_JfGqOrxzHVczTA8BAA8p2vYVjk&podcast_name=Don+Cooper+on+the+Mully+and+Hanley+Sh ow&podcast_artist=Mully+and+Hanley&station_id=391&tag=pages&dcid=CBS.CHI


Hahaha that is the greatest interview ever. Especially when Coop gets angry when they make fun of Arnie Munoz. Hahah. What a sour guy. At least he is honest.

TaylorStSox
05-10-2012, 11:18 AM
Totally ridiculous. "Overly cautious" involves getting an MRI done as soon as Sale confessed to unusual soreness and awaiting the results before making any decisions. On what planet does the cautious approach entail moving him to the pen and then have him pitch only to get an MRI done a week later?

Also, I'm not sure where I would look it up, but I'm not sure the Sox are any better than any other team in terms of keeping their pitchers healthy. Injuries have more to do with genetics and bad luck than any magical coaching/training methods.

People are posting here because Sale represents a ray of hope for a team lacking in young talent, not because they enjoy rumors and innuendo. What's the point of a message board if not to offer opinion or discuss the team?

Why wasn't an MRI done? Hell, I don't know. I'm not a doctor and I don't play one on the internet. Maybe there was swelling and they couldn't do it. Maybe they didn't think there structural damage and they thought it wasn't necessary. Maybe they wanted to skip a start and get him some work in an actual game instead of a bullpen session.

And, yes, the Sox are far and away the best organization at keeping players healthy.

TomBradley72
05-10-2012, 11:36 AM
My biggest concern in this whole mess is the fact that Robin Ventura does not come across as "clearly in charge"- I believe this should be the manager's call- not the GM's and not the pitching coach (both who should provide input- but the boss should make the ultimate decision).

I'm a big Ventura fan- and overall like what he's doing so far as manager- but he's Cooper's boss and needs to learn from this on how to handle communication- taking Sale out of the rotation for a few turns as a precautionary measure makes sense- but communicating that he's now the closer for the entire year (when he may return to the rotation or when Reed may be the better option) was a mistake.

LITTLE NELL
05-10-2012, 12:03 PM
Hahaha that is the greatest interview ever. Especially when Coop gets angry when they make fun of Arnie Munoz. Hahah. What a sour guy. At least he is honest.

Sometimes I thought I was listening to Buddy Hackett.
Maybe Cooper should be down in Miami with Ozzie.

delben91
05-10-2012, 12:21 PM
Sometimes I thought I was listening to Buddy Hackett.
Maybe Cooper should be down in Miami with Ozzie.

Yes, because Cooper's track record with the Sox clearly indicates he's no value added...

Over By There
05-10-2012, 12:29 PM
Completely agree. I love Coop as a pitching coach and respect everything he does with the Sox staff. But please Sox PR get him off these radio apperances. He comes off as a jerk and does not need to represent the White Sox. Let Robin make the calls and be the voice of the team, and then have KW make is monthly appearances before certain games in the dugout. Cooper has no clue how he appears to fans and the national media. Please Boyer and Reifert get this guy off the radio and TV. Keep him at what he does best... being the White Sox pitching coach.

Yes, yes, yes. I'm embarrassed for the Sox every time Cooper opens his mouth lately. Paging Mr. Boyer...

doublem23
05-10-2012, 12:32 PM
Maybe Cooper should be down in Miami with Ozzie.

No

chisox12
05-10-2012, 12:59 PM
Completely agree. I love Coop as a pitching coach and respect everything he does with the Sox staff. But please Sox PR get him off these radio apperances. He comes off as a jerk and does not need to represent the White Sox. Let Robin make the calls and be the voice of the team, and then have KW make is monthly appearances before certain games in the dugout. Cooper has no clue how he appears to fans and the national media. Please Boyer and Reifert get this guy off the radio and TV. Keep him at what he does best... being the White Sox pitching coach.


Very well put. Coop needs to take it easy on the interviews.

thomas35forever
05-10-2012, 01:04 PM
If Sale is indeed hurt, I'm willing to bet this story just goes by the wayside and the real one of Sale's recovery can begin. I would just DL him so they can figure out what the heck to do with him. At least that'd buy them some time.

soxfanreggie
05-10-2012, 01:43 PM
Frankly, between trying to keep Sale's innings down, the ever-present Jake Peavy injury risk, and Phil Humber's post-Perfect Game ****-A-Thon, perhaps the Sox would benefit to go to a 6th starter occassionally and get these guys an extra day of rest. Couldn't hurt. :dunno:

I'm on the same page with you there. Peavy may be able to handle a full season, but you don't want to risk anything with his injury history. On a side note: even if Peavy is healthy this season and does well, hopefully he will work with us on renegotiating his deal. I'm fairly certain he'll get his $4 million buyout at the end of this year, and maybe he'll come back on a 2 or 3 year deal (if he stays healthy the rest of this year). It would have to be at a number much more favorable for the Sox though.

For a guy who will have cleared $1.03 million from the Sox over two seasons, if we get 18-20 wins out of Humber over that same two season span, I'd be ecstatic on a "value" perspective. From a baseball perspective, I'm hoping he's a guy that can become a 12-15 game winner for us.

Noneck
05-10-2012, 02:00 PM
I'm fairly certain he'll get his $4 million buyout at the end of this year, and maybe he'll come back on a 2 or 3 year deal (if he stays healthy the rest of this year). It would have to be at a number much more favorable for the Sox though.



Peavy will get a big long term contract if he stays healthy and it wont be from the Sox. He has been proving this year that the injury was the reason for his decline. A top line starter at his age gets big bucks and a long term, thats not coming from the Sox.

doublem23
05-10-2012, 02:06 PM
I'm on the same page with you there. Peavy may be able to handle a full season, but you don't want to risk anything with his injury history. On a side note: even if Peavy is healthy this season and does well, hopefully he will work with us on renegotiating his deal. I'm fairly certain he'll get his $4 million buyout at the end of this year, and maybe he'll come back on a 2 or 3 year deal (if he stays healthy the rest of this year). It would have to be at a number much more favorable for the Sox though.


I'm only interested in keeping Peavy healthy and fresh so that we can deal him to someone by July 31 and actually get something of value. If the trade deadline rolls around and the Sox are legitimately pushing for a postseason spot, we can re-evaluate then, but either way, Peavy does the Sox no good getting his ass hurt again.

Noneck
05-10-2012, 02:15 PM
I am very open to the idea of trading Peavy asap. If someone is willing to pick up salary ,the buy out and possibly a prospect tomorrow, I would say goodbye to Peavy. I love to gamble but not with stakes of around 20M now.

russ99
05-10-2012, 02:19 PM
My biggest concern in this whole mess is the fact that Robin Ventura does not come across as "clearly in charge"- I believe this should be the manager's call- not the GM's and not the pitching coach (both who should provide input- but the boss should make the ultimate decision).

I'm a big Ventura fan- and overall like what he's doing so far as manager- but he's Cooper's boss and needs to learn from this on how to handle communication- taking Sale out of the rotation for a few turns as a precautionary measure makes sense- but communicating that he's now the closer for the entire year (when he may return to the rotation or when Reed may be the better option) was a mistake.

Good point.

Personally, I don't care if Kenny has some kind of "control the message" disinformation campaign going with the media and the fans, and Robin not taking charge (in the press) has something to do with that.

But it's one thing to do that to the media and fans, and another to do that to a supposed keystone pitcher for the next 5-10 years.

The management should be straightforward to the players, at least. Had options and possible decisions been discussed with Sale internally and all this been not thrown to the media, it wouldn't look so bad.

asindc
05-10-2012, 02:33 PM
Good point.

Personally, I don't care if Kenny has some kind of "control the message" disinformation campaign going with the media and the fans, and Robin not taking charge (in the press) has something to do with that.

But it's one thing to do that to the media and fans, and another to do that to a supposed keystone pitcher for the next 5-10 years.

The management should be straightforward to the players, at least. Had options and possible decisions been discussed with Sale internally and all this been not thrown to the media, it wouldn't look so bad.

How do you know they haven't?

KMcMahon817
05-10-2012, 03:06 PM
I am very open to the idea of trading Peavy asap. If someone is willing to pick up salary ,the buy out and possibly a prospect tomorrow, I would say goodbye to Peavy. I love to gamble but not with stakes of around 20M now.

You help pay Peavy's salary?

SI1020
05-10-2012, 03:21 PM
You help pay Peavy's salary? Anyone that goes to the games does.

jdm2662
05-10-2012, 03:22 PM
My biggest concern in this whole mess is the fact that Robin Ventura does not come across as "clearly in charge"- I believe this should be the manager's call- not the GM's and not the pitching coach (both who should provide input- but the boss should make the ultimate decision).

I'm a big Ventura fan- and overall like what he's doing so far as manager- but he's Cooper's boss and needs to learn from this on how to handle communication- taking Sale out of the rotation for a few turns as a precautionary measure makes sense- but communicating that he's now the closer for the entire year (when he may return to the rotation or when Reed may be the better option) was a mistake.


Now this is an actual, legit beef. If Ventura isn't making the final call, then he shouldn't be the manager. Input and suggestions are certainly ok. Of course, having a manager with no coaching experience, this wouldn't be a huge shock to me.

Noneck
05-10-2012, 03:26 PM
You help pay Peavy's salary?

Ideally no. I hope the red sox start to get very worried about being in last place and get about 12 games out and behind 4 teams with the yanks on a hot streak. Then I hope its pony up time.

doublem23
05-10-2012, 03:33 PM
I am very open to the idea of trading Peavy asap. If someone is willing to pick up salary ,the buy out and possibly a prospect tomorrow, I would say goodbye to Peavy. I love to gamble but not with stakes of around 20M now.

That's crazy. If Peavy continues to pitch as well as he has for another few months and the Sox continue to aimlessly drift around .500, they are going to land a haul for him at the trade deadline. As it stands now, there aren't any major FA's out there that we want to sign but can't because Peavy's deal blocks that. If the Sox wait it out, they might score a major win for the barren minor league system. Worth the wait.

Noneck
05-10-2012, 03:39 PM
That's crazy. If Peavy continues to pitch as well as he has for another few months and the Sox continue to aimlessly drift around .500, they are going to land a haul for him at the trade deadline. As it stands now, there aren't any major FA's out there that we want to sign but can't because Peavy's deal blocks that. If the Sox wait it out, they might score a major win for the barren minor league system. Worth the wait.

You do realize that Peavy will cost a club about 11M for the second half of a season ? I think its crazy that one would think that anyone would give a haul along with that kind of money.

doublem23
05-10-2012, 03:47 PM
You do realize that Peavy will cost a club about 11M for the second half of a season ? I think its crazy that one would think that anyone would give a haul along with that kind of money.

Well, most of your post is not in coherent English so I'm not 100% sure what your point is, but yes, I am aware Peavy costs the Sox major dough, but again it's not like there's a bevvy of FA out there that we'd be signing if it wasn't for this darn Peavy deal. It is what it is. The best way for the Sox to maximize the return on Peavy is to ride it out, let a few teams get in a bidding war and use him to help replenish our farm system. Maybe the Red Sox or Angels or some other contender off to a slow start will offer KW a stupid deal he'd be an idiot to turn down, but right now I think the Sox are better served holding court and riding it out. They could make a killing on a Peavy deal in mid-July.

Noneck
05-10-2012, 03:57 PM
Well, most of your post is not in coherent English so I'm not 100% sure what your point is, but yes, I am aware Peavy costs the Sox major dough, but again it's not like there's a bevvy of FA out there that we'd be signing if it wasn't for this darn Peavy deal. It is what it is. The best way for the Sox to maximize the return on Peavy is to ride it out, let a few teams get in a bidding war and use him to help replenish our farm system. Maybe the Red Sox or Angels or some other contender off to a slow start will offer KW a stupid deal he'd be an idiot to turn down, but right now I think the Sox are better served holding court and riding it out. They could make a killing on a Peavy deal in mid-July.


The point is: You are dreaming if you think someone will spend huge amounts of cash (11M) and give up major prospects for a half a year of Peavy. Please remember this conversation when that time comes.

TomBradley72
05-10-2012, 04:00 PM
Now this is an actual, legit beef. If Ventura isn't making the final call, then he shouldn't be the manager. Input and suggestions are certainly ok. Of course, having a manager with no coaching experience, this wouldn't be a huge shock to me.

And for this - I hold Kenny(especially) and Coop accountable- KW has bene signalling since before spring training his opinions, etc on matters that belong with the manager.

Behind the scenes KW and Coop should say anything they want to Robin about different decisions he needs to make- but publicly- the message should be "It's Robin's club- it's his decision"-and going forward- Robin needs to set that tone (and behind closed doors tell KW and Coop to shut the **** up publicly when it comes to decisions that are his responsibility).

SCCWS
05-10-2012, 04:01 PM
That's crazy. If Peavy continues to pitch as well as he has for another few months and the Sox continue to aimlessly drift around .500, they are going to land a haul for him at the trade deadline. As it stands now, there aren't any major FA's out there that we want to sign but can't because Peavy's deal blocks that. If the Sox wait it out, they might score a major win for the barren minor league system. Worth the wait.


I also agree that you try and unload Peavy at the trade deadline. But with his salary, I am not sure you can get a haul for him. Hopefully someone takes his salary and gives up a couple of prospects. Last year Boston went after Harden and then settled on Bedard at the deadline. Neither are Jake Peavy but they only traded 2 second tier players to get Bedard. It would be great to get a haul but the contract may limit the compensation.

asindc
05-10-2012, 04:05 PM
And for this - I hold Kenny(especially) and Coop accountable- KW has bene signalling since before spring training his opinions, etc on matters that belong with the manager.

Behind the scenes KW and Coop should say anything they want to Robin about different decisions he needs to make- but publicly- the message should be "It's Robin's club- it's his decision"-and going forward- Robin needs to set that tone (and behind closed doors tell KW and Coop to shut the **** up publicly when it comes to decisions that are his responsibility).

This, I completely agree with.

Domeshot17
05-10-2012, 04:11 PM
The point is: You are dreaming if you think someone will spend huge amounts of cash (11M) and give up major prospects for a half a year of Peavy. Please remember this conversation when that time comes.

It happens every year! If Peavy keeps his value up like he has and he keeps pitching like an ACE, the Sox will be in a position to get a monster return. The idea that you just salary dump Jake is a complete and total joke.

Noneck
05-10-2012, 04:19 PM
It happens every year! If Peavy keeps his value up like he has and he keeps pitching like an ACE, the Sox will be in a position to get a monster return. The idea that you just salary dump Jake is a complete and total joke.


You are very knowledgeable in the minor league systems and prospects. Have teams near the deadline traded away top prospects for a pitcher like Peavy, considering Peavys contract status? Getting information from you on this can change my mind.

TheOldRoman
05-10-2012, 04:35 PM
It happens every year! If Peavy keeps his value up like he has and he keeps pitching like an ACE, the Sox will be in a position to get a monster return. The idea that you just salary dump Jake is a complete and total joke.I believe his point is that unless the Sox pick up a huge portion of Jake's salary, they wouldn't be able to move him for anything above B prospects at the deadline. Counting Peavy's $4 mil buyout, the acquiring team would be spending $10 million for about 10 starts. Nobody is doing that. Now, if the Sox agree to pay half of the salary, the prospects get a lot better. There only way they get a huge haul for Peavy is if they throw in about $7-8 million.

Paulwny
05-10-2012, 04:42 PM
Trading Peavy and obtaining decent prospects may depend on his willingness to a contract extension with the trading team.

Noneck
05-10-2012, 05:02 PM
I believe his point is that unless the Sox pick up a huge portion of Jake's salary, they wouldn't be able to move him for anything above B prospects at the deadline. Counting Peavy's $4 mil buyout, the acquiring team would be spending $10 million for about 10 starts. Nobody is doing that. Now, if the Sox agree to pay half of the salary, the prospects get a lot better. There only way they get a huge haul for Peavy is if they throw in about $7-8 million.


Yes that is my point and I just dont see the Sox spending 7-8M for some prospects.

slavko
05-10-2012, 05:07 PM
Sometimes I thought I was listening to Buddy Hackett.
Maybe Cooper should be down in Miami with Ozzie.

Got my head spinning with this thread. Time for Buddy Hackett's Duck Story on YouTube. Look it up.

Lip Man 1
05-10-2012, 09:08 PM
Sale's agent now weighs in.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0511-white-sox-chicago--20120511,0,6441843.story

The story gets more bizarre every day to me. Not because they decided to move him to the bullpen that happens all the time, but because of the backtracking and conflicting comments from those in charge since then.

There seems to be a serious disconnect among those making the decisions which I guess shouldn't surprise...Ozzie and Kenny weren't on the same page for at least the last two seasons. That does not bode well for an organization trying to figure out a course for the future.

Lip

TommyGavinFloyd
05-10-2012, 09:15 PM
Yes that is my point and I just dont see the Sox spending 7-8M for some prospects.

Why not? It would beat spending the 11 million on Peavy and then having to buy him out. Even if they have to eat 80% of the money, so what? Right now they'd be stuck with 100%.

As for the Sale thing, the more I try to figure it out, the more confused I get. Someone needs to take charge of this situation already and figure out what the **** is going on.

Noneck
05-10-2012, 09:31 PM
Why not? It would beat spending the 11 million on Peavy and then having to buy him out. Even if they have to eat 80% of the money, so what? Right now they'd be stuck with 100%.



If they have to go that route, you are correct. But If they do get 2 prospects for 7-8M, it is no "haul", as some here are saying the return for Peavy will be.

Brian26
05-10-2012, 09:34 PM
I assume Don Cooper gets paid for his appearances on WSCR, which makes it all the more humorous when he acts like a complete tool when someone asks him a question he doesn't like. If he's getting paid to be there, without someone pointing a gun to his head, he shouldn't act like he's annoyed or that the bozos running the show are beneath him (even if, in reality, they are).

As for the Arnie Munoz comment, that was Cooper's best moment in the interview, and I'm glad he backed up Munoz. Throwing out a fifth starter's name from eight years ago shouldn't get anyone praise as a brilliant comedian. On the otherhand, throwing out "Joel Davis" or "Jerry Kutzler" is comedy gold. Hanley can't touch that.

Noneck
05-10-2012, 09:45 PM
Sale's agent now weighs in.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0511-white-sox-chicago--20120511,0,6441843.story

The story gets more bizarre every day to me. Not because they decided to move him to the bullpen that happens all the time, but because of the backtracking and conflicting comments from those in charge since then.

There seems to be a serious disconnect among those making the decisions which I guess shouldn't surprise...Ozzie and Kenny weren't on the same page for at least the last two seasons. That does not bode well for an organization trying to figure out a course for the future.

Lip


Once again it looks like too many people have their thumbs in the porridge. I was hoping this ended last year but it doesnt appear it has. This organization does not appear to be running correctly and the blame starts at the top.

canOcorn
05-10-2012, 10:19 PM
If they have to go that route, you are correct. But If they do get 2 prospects for 7-8M, it is no "haul", as some here are saying the return for Peavy will be.

You're absolutely correct. The "big" money teams do not have the room to add that kind of salary and stay below the new cap rules/penalties. Maybe the Sox could eat a lot of salary and go after Zach Lee (which is probably unrealistic), if they like him, because the Dodgers are about the only team that has room under the 'cap' to take on that salary. And I surely do not want to see a salary dump because that money isn't going towards next season budget!

KMcMahon817
05-10-2012, 11:03 PM
And I surely do not want to see a salary dump because that money isn't going towards next season budget!

Amen. I would rather Peavy stick around than see a straight salary dump.

RockJock07
05-11-2012, 01:06 AM
I assume Don Cooper gets paid for his appearances on WSCR, which makes it all the more humorous when he acts like a complete tool when someone asks him a question he doesn't like. If he's getting paid to be there, without someone pointing a gun to his head, he shouldn't act like he's annoyed or that the bozos running the show are beneath him (even if, in reality, they are).

As for the Arnie Munoz comment, that was Cooper's best moment in the interview, and I'm glad he backed up Munoz. Throwing out a fifth starter's name from eight years ago shouldn't get anyone praise as a brilliant comedian. On the otherhand, throwing out "Joel Davis" or "Jerry Kutzler" is comedy gold. Hanley can't touch that.

Yeah that was a classic interview. Boers and Berstein replayed a majority of it just makes the Sox look bad because Robin has no clue whats going on, I don't think Kenny has said anything publicly, and Coop is just rambling like a weirdo.

This whole thing is going to blow up in their faces and Sale is gonna need Tommy John. Now with Sale's agent speaking out it's all just confusing for everyone.

What a cluster ****

SI1020
05-11-2012, 07:31 AM
Sale's agent now weighs in.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0511-white-sox-chicago--20120511,0,6441843.story

The story gets more bizarre every day to me. Not because they decided to move him to the bullpen that happens all the time, but because of the backtracking and conflicting comments from those in charge since then.

There seems to be a serious disconnect among those making the decisions which I guess shouldn't surprise...Ozzie and Kenny weren't on the same page for at least the last two seasons. That does not bode well for an organization trying to figure out a course for the future.

Lip Good post and good article by Gonzo. I'm sure that won't change the minds of those who think some of us have an "agenda" or that there was nothing to see here. Just normal baseball business. There is nothing normal about the Sox organization right now.

doublem23
05-11-2012, 09:35 AM
If they have to go that route, you are correct. But If they do get 2 prospects for 7-8M, it is no "haul", as some here are saying the return for Peavy will be.

Well now you're just arguing semantics. In 2010, the Mariners got Justin Smoak, Blake Beaven, Josh Lueke, and Matthew Lawson from Texas for Cliff Lee. Smoak was the #13 prospect in baseball pre-2010 according to BA and Beaven was a former 1st round pick as well. Two top prospects like that would certainly qualify as a "haul" for Peavy, IMO.

Noneck
05-11-2012, 09:41 AM
Well now you're just arguing semantics. In 2010, the Mariners got Justin Smoak, Blake Beaven, Josh Lueke, and Matthew Lawson from Texas for Cliff Lee. Smoak was the #13 prospect in baseball pre-2010 according to BA and Beaven was a former 1st round pick as well. Two top prospects like that would certainly qualify as a "haul" for Peavy, IMO.

If someone picked up Peavys salary and option, yes that would be a haul.

doublem23
05-11-2012, 10:09 AM
If someone picked up Peavys salary and option, yes that would be a haul.

Ok, so then what are we even talking about? I hope we've all reached the conclusion that trading Peavy now for nothing as a salary dump, when he has literally been the best player in baseball so far in 2012, would be a horrendously short-sighted turn of events.

Noneck
05-11-2012, 10:41 AM
Ok, so then what are we even talking about? I hope we've all reached the conclusion that trading Peavy now for nothing as a salary dump, when he has literally been the best player in baseball so far in 2012, would be a horrendously short-sighted turn of events.

When you say salary dump, if you mean the saved salary not being put into the future of the club, then I agree with you. But if the savings is invested into future signings, minor league system etc., then we disagree. I still dont think the Sox will get much for Peavy unless they eat 7-8M. I would rather the Sox dump Peavy now and have the 18M(salary and option as of today) to invest it in the future, without the prospects.

Domeshot17
05-11-2012, 12:08 PM
You are very knowledgeable in the minor league systems and prospects. Have teams near the deadline traded away top prospects for a pitcher like Peavy, considering Peavys contract status? Getting information from you on this can change my mind.

Money will have an impact, but so does desperation. Look at the price the Twins paid for Matt Capps.

It is tough to find a pitcher of Jake's calibur that was available. But if you look at the rental prices paid for say Cliff Lee, Sabathia etc. he returns can be big.

Maybe the most comparable pitcher dealt recently was in 2010 when Roy Oswalt went to Philly. Haap was a big time prospect at the time of the deal who had some big league success.

I would think our most ideal trade partner currently is the Red Sox. They have gotten nothing out of their rotation this year and need pitching. They can spend money and have a ton of prospects.

Another trade to consider is the Giants adding Carlos Beltran. Different position, but they were so desperate they parted with Zach Wheeler! A team who looks at a Jake Peavy right now sees him as an anchor for the remainder of the year. A team in July sees him in 2 lights (1) A goto arm who will be the stopper and get us into October. (2) MORE IMPORTANTLY, you want a team to say "This is our game 1 starter. This is the guy who makes us not a playoff team, but a world series contender".

I could see the Sox kicking in 2 or 3 million in salary to save 7 and getting major prospects back. Also, don't assume the buyout is a given. Boston could very well pick up the option or work out an extension.

My personal thinking and nothing more than my opinion, watch the Blue Jays. They put up a strong 1-4 but it is very young. They may view a guy like Jake as the missing link in front of Romero. Deep Farm, they have money to spend and obviously Kenny and their GM have a nice relationship.

asindc
05-11-2012, 12:23 PM
Money will have an impact, but so does desperation. Look at the price the Twins paid for Matt Capps.

It is tough to find a pitcher of Jake's calibur that was available. But if you look at the rental prices paid for say Cliff Lee, Sabathia etc. he returns can be big.

Maybe the most comparable pitcher dealt recently was in 2010 when Roy Oswalt went to Philly. Haap was a big time prospect at the time of the deal who had some big league success.

I would think our most ideal trade partner currently is the Red Sox. They have gotten nothing out of their rotation this year and need pitching. They can spend money and have a ton of prospects.

Another trade to consider is the Giants adding Carlos Beltran. Different position, but they were so desperate they parted with Zach Wheeler! A team who looks at a Jake Peavy right now sees him as an anchor for the remainder of the year. A team in July sees him in 2 lights (1) A goto arm who will be the stopper and get us into October. (2) MORE IMPORTANTLY, you want a team to say "This is our game 1 starter. This is the guy who makes us not a playoff team, but a world series contender".

I could see the Sox kicking in 2 or 3 million in salary to save 7 and getting major prospects back. Also, don't assume the buyout is a given. Boston could very well pick up the option or work out an extension.

My personal thinking and nothing more than my opinion, watch the Blue Jays. They put up a strong 1-4 but it is very young. They may view a guy like Jake as the missing link in front of Romero. Deep Farm, they have money to spend and obviously Kenny and their GM have a nice relationship.

That was both desperate and stupid, and most people said so at the time. Well, most people except the few "grass-is-greener-in-Minny" Sox fans who lauded the decision at the time and expressed dismay as to why KW couldn't pull off that deal.

DSpivack
05-11-2012, 12:50 PM
Money will have an impact, but so does desperation. Look at the price the Twins paid for Matt Capps.

It is tough to find a pitcher of Jake's calibur that was available. But if you look at the rental prices paid for say Cliff Lee, Sabathia etc. he returns can be big.

Maybe the most comparable pitcher dealt recently was in 2010 when Roy Oswalt went to Philly. Haap was a big time prospect at the time of the deal who had some big league success.

I would think our most ideal trade partner currently is the Red Sox. They have gotten nothing out of their rotation this year and need pitching. They can spend money and have a ton of prospects.

Another trade to consider is the Giants adding Carlos Beltran. Different position, but they were so desperate they parted with Zach Wheeler! A team who looks at a Jake Peavy right now sees him as an anchor for the remainder of the year. A team in July sees him in 2 lights (1) A goto arm who will be the stopper and get us into October. (2) MORE IMPORTANTLY, you want a team to say "This is our game 1 starter. This is the guy who makes us not a playoff team, but a world series contender".

I could see the Sox kicking in 2 or 3 million in salary to save 7 and getting major prospects back. Also, don't assume the buyout is a given. Boston could very well pick up the option or work out an extension.

My personal thinking and nothing more than my opinion, watch the Blue Jays. They put up a strong 1-4 but it is very young. They may view a guy like Jake as the missing link in front of Romero. Deep Farm, they have money to spend and obviously Kenny and their GM have a nice relationship.

I really have nothing to add except that I agree. I also wonder if the sooner the trade him the more they can get back in return. As I don't see this Sox team winning the World Series, and I don't see them picking up Peavy's $22 million option for 2013, I would be happy to see them trading him to a contender and getting a decent haul of prospects.

LITTLE NELL
05-11-2012, 02:51 PM
Any word up there on Sale's MRI result?

Harry Chappas
05-11-2012, 03:10 PM
A deviation from the original topic, but if/when they trade Peavy, what's the consensus on what they should target in return - offense or pitching - both? If Sale gets his wish and is put back in the rotation, it would seem that they have greater needs on the offensive side of things. Other than Thompson and Mitchell, the Sox don't seem to have much in the way of position players in their farm system. With Morel, Beckham, Flowers, Viciedo, and Beckham struggling, it would be great if they had some depth there.

Thoughts?

DonnieDarko
05-11-2012, 03:15 PM
Frankly, we've got enough arms in the minors (who knows if they're any good, though). I want to see the Sox--assuming that the Sox do indeed trade Peavy--get some good positional players in return.

shes
05-11-2012, 03:40 PM
A deviation from the original topic, but if/when they trade Peavy, what's the consensus on what they should target in return - offense or pitching - both? If Sale gets his wish and is put back in the rotation, it would seem that they have greater needs on the offensive side of things. Other than Thompson and Mitchell, the Sox don't seem to have much in the way of position players in their farm system. With Morel, Beckham, Flowers, Viciedo, and Beckham struggling, it would be great if they had some depth there.

Thoughts?

We literally need prospects at every infield position, so that would be nice.

DonnieDarko
05-11-2012, 03:43 PM
We literally need prospects at every infield position, so that would be nice.

I don't think we need any at SS, and the verdict is still out on 2B (though it's looking more and more apparent that we will). I agree that at every other IF position we do need some good prospects, though. OF? Nah, we're pretty good there, assuming that Mitchell can keep up what he's doing (or heat things up again, I heard that he's been cooling off).

And again, we've already got enough arms to go around, I think.

soltrain21
05-11-2012, 03:57 PM
I don't think we need any at SS, and the verdict is still out on 2B (though it's looking more and more apparent that we will). I agree that at every other IF position we do need some good prospects, though. OF? Nah, we're pretty good there, assuming that Mitchell can keep up what he's doing (or heat things up again, I heard that he's been cooling off).

And again, we've already got enough arms to go around, I think.

You think having one OF prospect means we are good in that department?

doublem23
05-11-2012, 03:59 PM
I don't think we need any at SS, and the verdict is still out on 2B (though it's looking more and more apparent that we will). I agree that at every other IF position we do need some good prospects, though. OF? Nah, we're pretty good there, assuming that Mitchell can keep up what he's doing (or heat things up again, I heard that he's been cooling off).

And again, we've already got enough arms to go around, I think.

The rate at which prospects fail is staggering so whoever we can get will certainly help. We don't have an elite prospect at any position, we barely have 2-3 Good prospects. Definitely aren't in a situation where we can afford to be choosey.

eriqjaffe
05-11-2012, 04:43 PM
Chuck Garfien just tweeted...

Kenny Williams says that Chris Sale will likely start tomorrow.

https://twitter.com/#!/ChuckGarfien/status/201064336406478849

kittle42
05-11-2012, 04:51 PM
Chuck Garfien just tweeted...[snip]

This organization is a joke.

WhiteSox5187
05-11-2012, 04:58 PM
This organization is a joke.

Anyone who though the dysfunctional nature of this organization would cease with Ozzie's exit was sadly mistaken. As long as Kenny is in charge that dysfuntional nature will continue.

sox1970
05-11-2012, 05:00 PM
Glad he's starting, but what the hell is going on with this team?

They have a pitching coach that talks too much.

They have a manager that doesn't want him to start.

They have a GM that should have said something a week ago.

It's just a bizarre organization.

DumpJerry
05-11-2012, 05:45 PM
Well, this thread is no longer necessary. Continue discussing here (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=134120).