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View Full Version : 5/7 Game 2 - so much for the next one


MISoxfan
05-07-2012, 10:09 PM
So glad I got to watch the Sox lose twice today instead of their usual once.

LongLiveFisk
05-07-2012, 10:11 PM
It's the usual April/May slump.

kevingrt
05-07-2012, 10:11 PM
That sucked.

One thing of note... That foul ball Flowers hit was absolutely murdered. The ball hit that facade thingy and was still going on a straight rope.

amsteel
05-07-2012, 10:11 PM
Hey, on the bright side, they can only lose half as many games tomorrow as they did today!

JB98
05-07-2012, 10:12 PM
That sucked.

One thing of note... That foul ball Flowers hit was absolutely murdered. The ball hit that facade thingy and was still going on a straight rope.

All day long, the Sox were getting good pitches to hit and either hitting them foul or popping them up. Meanwhile, Sox pitchers paid for the majority of their mistakes.

Gonna be a rough season.

Jerko
05-07-2012, 10:13 PM
I'm quickly tiring of giving up runs 30 seconds after they score 90% of the time.

Nelfox02
05-07-2012, 10:13 PM
That sucked.

One thing of note... That foul ball Flowers hit was absolutely murdered. The ball hit that facade thingy and was still going on a straight rope.

it was crushed.....and for a moment I was bummed it went foul, but then I realized it spared me having to watch the sox blow this one in walk off fashion in the bottom of 9....and got a little less dissapointed

GlassSox
05-07-2012, 10:15 PM
Hey, on the bright side, they can only lose half as many games tomorrow as they did today!

:lol:

amsteel
05-07-2012, 10:17 PM
Sox are now 2-7 in 1-run/extra innings games. Also, the majority of opponent's hitting statistics in high leverage and late game situations are significantly above other situations.

Now, those both can be (are) the result simply being a bad team. It's early, but is anyone else having creeping doubts about Ventura's ability?

Pitching splits:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/split.cgi?t=p&team=CHW&year=2012

thomas35forever
05-07-2012, 10:18 PM
I waited an On Demand episode of SNL for this ending? Yes, I know I said I'd watch The Simpsons, but I called an audible.

sachin
05-07-2012, 10:18 PM
Can the Sox trade Morel and Beckham for a tub of Diamond Dry? These guys are almost a guaranteed 6 outs per game, and Morel is a leading candidate for the Gary Scott Lifetime Career Achievement Award.

Is Chris Snopek doing anything these days?

Lip Man 1
05-07-2012, 10:18 PM
Knowing they are going to go right down the toilet doesn't make it any less painful to go through it.

6th loss this year when giving an opponent three runs or less.
3-9 since the blow up in extra innings in Oakland
3-11 in last 14 games.

What can you do?

Lip

JB98
05-07-2012, 10:19 PM
2-6 in one-run games. 1-5 in two-run games.

Good teams win close games. Horse**** teams lose them.

amsteel
05-07-2012, 10:23 PM
Also, mother**** Tony Randazzo for this **** factory of an AB he called against Dunn in the 8th. http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/numlocation.php?pitchSel=501925&game=gid_2012_05_07_chamlb_clemlb_2/&batterX=61&innings=yyyyyyyyy&sp_type=1&s_type=3

LoveYourSuit
05-07-2012, 10:23 PM
Very close to giving up on this season.

Same hopeless hitting.

It's like watching the Titanic Movie for an alternate ending.

shingo10
05-07-2012, 10:24 PM
Well the offense can't get much worse so that's a positive.

Let's see what else...uh, we're still only 5 games back with 5 months to go so if we pick up a game a month we might be on to something.

Yep.

I don't know this stat but I'm willing to bet that the Sox have been swept the most during a Double Header since 2007. Because it seems to happen WAY too much.

1989
05-07-2012, 10:24 PM
Glad to see the Sox are the unluckiest team in baseball this year.

Joke.

TDog
05-07-2012, 10:25 PM
That sucked.

One thing of note... That foul ball Flowers hit was absolutely murdered. The ball hit that facade thingy and was still going on a straight rope.

I saw that on the MLB live look-in. Flowers was waiting on the pitch, centered it and drove it far and deep and barely foul. There was no way he was going to get that pitch again.

The difference between victory and defeat tonight was closer still when you consider that twice with runners on third and one out, the White Sox failed to score. After the Flowers double, Morel did his job and with the infield playing back, as is typical with two runners in scoring position and none out, he grounded out to second to score one and send a second run to third with one out. De Aza failed to bring Flowers in through the now-pulled-in infield. Then, of course, coming out of the delay, Rios seemed to put the White Sox out in front when he sent Beckham to third with one out in addition to tying the score. Of course, Dunn, a strong candidate for a healthy fly ball, grounded into a double play. Both situations seemed to have matchups favoring the White Sox.

Tonight it wasn't even the case of not getting the big hit. The White Sox were in a position to win this game with a couple of productive outs.

ChicagoG19
05-07-2012, 10:27 PM
Well the last couple of games have been frustrating. But I still look at it like this: We are only 4 games under and there is still plenty of time to turn it around. I just hope the Sox are proactive this year in regards to Morel and Bacon. One of these guys needs to be benched and some needs to be brought up. I am willing to give some defense for some hitting.

JB98
05-07-2012, 10:34 PM
Well the last couple of games have been frustrating. But I still look at it like this: We are only 4 games under and there is still plenty of time to turn it around. I just hope the Sox are proactive this year in regards to Morel and Bacon. One of these guys needs to be benched and some needs to be brought up. I am willing to give some defense for some hitting.

The question is who do you call up? Remember the farm system is a wasteland.

Also, Beckham is batting .357 with two homers in May. I wouldn't pull the rug out from under him now when he's showing signs of life.

I don't know what Morel's problem is. Unfortunately, there aren't many options. You can't say Lillibridge should play third, because he has looked horrible also.

delben91
05-07-2012, 10:38 PM
Sox are now 2-7 in 1-run/extra innings games. Also, the majority of opponent's hitting statistics in high leverage and late game situations are significantly above other situations.

Now, those both can be (are) the result simply being a bad team. It's early, but is anyone else having creeping doubts about Ventura's ability?

Pitching splits:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/split.cgi?t=p&team=CHW&year=2012

Glad we gave the guy a whole month managing a team widely accepted to be not very good before we started to doubt his ability.

thomas35forever
05-07-2012, 10:38 PM
2-6 in one-run games. 1-5 in two-run games.

Good teams win close games. Horse**** teams lose them.
My dad is optimistic since the games have been so "close". I told him "close" doesn't translate into wins.

amsteel
05-07-2012, 10:44 PM
Glad we gave the guy a whole month managing a team widely accepted to be not very good before we started to doubt his ability.

I realize it's early, and he's essentially throwing **** at the wall, but the late game pitching stats imply a couple things: a bad bullpen and/or bad bullpen management.

I also realize he's a rookie, and we should expect rookie-level performance, but who's to say that the Sox ability at judging managing potential is any better than it is at judging playing potential from prospects. (Which is to say, not very good)

delben91
05-07-2012, 10:52 PM
I realize it's early, and he's essentially throwing **** at the wall, but the late game pitching stats imply a couple things: a bad bullpen and/or bad bullpen management.

I also realize he's a rookie, and we should expect rookie-level performance, but who's to say that the Sox ability at judging managing potential is any better than it is at judging playing potential from prospects. (Which is to say, not very good)

Well, look at who he's choosing from. Other than Reed, who, before the season, of the bullpen really gave you any confidence? Jones has been a nice surprise, but otherwise I was figuring the pen would be very average at best.

If there's no talent out there, can't blame Ventura that they're not performing.

amsteel
05-07-2012, 10:57 PM
If there's no talent out there, can't blame Ventura that they're not performing.

Guillen seemed to catch alot of flak for poor performance with no talent.

delben91
05-07-2012, 11:03 PM
Guillen seemed to catch alot of flak for poor performance with no talent.

Fine, you got me, Ventura sucks, let's fire him.

amsteel
05-07-2012, 11:06 PM
Fine, you got me, Ventura sucks, let's fire him.

Doubting his ability and wanting him fired aren't the same thing. I never said he should be fired.

delben91
05-07-2012, 11:06 PM
Doubting his ability and wanting him fired aren't the same thing. I never said he should be fired.

So he has no managerial ability and you want to keep him? Why?

amsteel
05-07-2012, 11:14 PM
So he has no managerial ability and you want to keep him? Why?

If he's not very good at his job, he'd fit in pretty well on this team.

Thru one month Ventura hasn't been too impressive, that's not to say he won't get better. That's also not to say he won't get worse.

My point is thru one month, he hasn't exactly showed me anything to think he'll be a long-lasting, successful MLB manager. But, that perception can (may) be skewed thru the lens of a pretty bad White Sox team.

SoxSpeed22
05-07-2012, 11:23 PM
Blah blah blah, not a good team, blah.

amsteel
05-07-2012, 11:24 PM
Blah blah blah, not a good team, blah.

Counterpoint: yuck, icky!

guillensdisciple
05-07-2012, 11:26 PM
Wow... managers really do get the shift. Maybe we should be looking up to Reinsy and Williams for a lack of talent. Not to Ventura- soon we'll be gutting the hitting coach too.

doublem23
05-07-2012, 11:32 PM
If he's not very good at his job, he'd fit in pretty well on this team.

Thru one month Ventura hasn't been too impressive, that's not to say he won't get better. That's also not to say he won't get worse.

My point is thru one month, he hasn't exactly showed me anything to think he'll be a long-lasting, successful MLB manager. But, that perception can (may) be skewed thru the lens of a pretty bad White Sox team.

I'd take the opposite, considering that he was able to squeeze a few weeks of good play out of this sad collection of a horse**** team makes me think Ventura will be fine in the long-run, assuming he gets some players that aren't completely terrible.

amsteel
05-07-2012, 11:38 PM
I'd take the opposite, considering that he was able to squeeze a few weeks of good play out of this sad collection of a horse**** team makes me think Ventura will be fine in the long-run, assuming he gets some players that aren't completely terrible.

Certainly a valid way of looking at it. It'll be interesting at the end of the season to see what things look like with a larger sample size. It's impossible to compare apples to apples when comparing one season to another, but it's fairly safe to say the 2012 Sox suffer from alot of the same issues as the 2011 Sox. The difference between how Ventura appears to deal with these issues and how Guillen dealt with them will be quite interesting.

Nellie_Fox
05-08-2012, 12:30 AM
Well the offense can't get much worse so that's a positive.Oh, sure it can. Dunn could go back in the crapper.

TDog
05-08-2012, 12:43 AM
My dad is optimistic since the games have been so "close". I told him "close" doesn't translate into wins.


It depends. If you're losing a lot of close games like the day game or even the Sunday game, you're not that close. If you're losing a lot of close games where the manager and players put the team in a position to win but execution fell just short -- i.e. getting two runners to third with less than two outs with good hitters coming up and failing to bring them home, those games tend to more than even out and end up on the plus side, unless you have terrible pitching. If the Sox played a lot of games like tonight's game or Friday's game in Detroit, they would win most of those. If they played a lot of close games like the day game, they would lose most of those.

Many sabermetric people contend that teams with great one-run-game records tend to have poor records the the year because things eventually even out. The 1967 White Sox set some sort of a record for one-run wins, I think, and the 1968 White Sox pretty much reversed it. I don't totally agree with the evening-out analysis, though. Not all one-run games have the same dynamic.

You really can't blame Morel or Beckham or even Ventura for losing tonight's game.

hawkjt
05-08-2012, 01:50 AM
The two rookie pitchers looked solid today...one bright spot.
Too bad about that 5th inning for Stultz...as Hawk said,I wish I could cuss on here about that walk and the two seeing eye hits with two outs nobody on.

No question,the Sox lack clutchness at the plate,big time. The Tigers and Tribe have been coming back on the Sox all year with big hits,it seems.

Sox could have won two,but dropped two...sucks.

A. Cavatica
05-08-2012, 05:23 AM
Well the last couple of games have been frustrating. But I still look at it like this: We are only 4 games under and there is still plenty of time to turn it around. I just hope the Sox are proactive this year in regards to Morel and Bacon. One of these guys needs to be benched and some needs to be brought up. I am willing to give some defense for some hitting.

They just need more cooking time.

http://www.foodandwine.com/recipes/beef-medallions-with-bacon-and-morels

A. Cavatica
05-08-2012, 05:24 AM
Guillen seemed to catch alot of flak for poor performance with no talent.

Yes, but that was for Guillen's poor performance and lack of talent.

October26
05-08-2012, 07:31 AM
The two rookie pitchers looked solid today...one bright spot.
Too bad about that 5th inning for Stultz...as Hawk said,I wish I could cuss on here about that walk and the two seeing eye hits with two outs nobody on.

No question,the Sox lack clutchness at the plate,big time. The Tigers and Tribe have been coming back on the Sox all year with big hits,it seems.

Sox could have won two,but dropped two...sucks.

This. Need to hang on to the positives right now... Frustrating to once again see the Sox unable get the big hits and leave so many runners on base.

ChiSoxGirl
05-08-2012, 09:19 AM
The two rookie pitchers looked solid today...one bright spot.
Too bad about that 5th inning for Stultz...as Hawk said,I wish I could cuss on here about that walk and the two seeing eye hits with two outs nobody on.

No question,the Sox lack clutchness at the plate,big time. The Tigers and Tribe have been coming back on the Sox all year with big hits,it seems.

Sox could have won two,but dropped two...sucks.

Last night's fifth inning was quintessential 2012 White Sox baseball. Hawk nailed it, "Any pitchers who walks the last guy in the lineup and follows by giving up a base hit deserves what's coming to him" and Stults got his. It's frustrating as all hell, but it seems like something we're going to have to live with as fans while the team is "rebuilding."

The season as a whole has been a damn shame because the Sox give everything they have to score runs and when they do, they give it right back an inning later. Case in point, last night's seventh inning. Someone finally came through in the clutch and what did Thornton do? Gave it right back. Or when they score six, as they did in the afternoon game, the pitching surrenders eight. We can't get out of our own way, it seems.

Golden Sox
05-08-2012, 09:23 AM
Every team has there ups and downs every season. Obviously this has been a down time for the White Sox. Unfortunately this down time (3-11, the last 14 games) seems to point out that this team isn't that good and its probably not fixable. If thats the case, are KW days as White Sox coming to an end? If this losing continues, I don't see how he can survive the season.

beasly213
05-08-2012, 09:40 AM
Meh,
Sox could win the next two of this series then go back home to face the awful Royals. Could be back at .500 by Monday. Which is where I expect this team to be most of the year. Around or just below .500

There’s not much to look forward to throughout the year except hoping for Peavy to keep pitching well enough to get the Yankees to give up a whole lot to get him in a trade.

SoxSpeed22
05-08-2012, 09:54 AM
Oh, sure it can. Dunn could go back in the crapper.And Rios.

Harry Chappas
05-08-2012, 10:31 AM
Well, look at who he's choosing from. Other than Reed, who, before the season, of the bullpen really gave you any confidence? Jones has been a nice surprise, but otherwise I was figuring the pen would be very average at best.

If there's no talent out there, can't blame Ventura that they're not performing.

Why is Ventura a sacred cow? Because he was a fan favorite? He has no managerial experience and it shows. No reason to ignore this fact and it doesn't mean that anyone is calling for his head.

The fact is that there is no sound basis for assuming that he will one day become a great manager. None. I hope he does because I think he's a great guy and a much needed breath of fresh air, but he has no track record to look to and conclude 'he's the next Joe Maddon.' So fans are just taking it on faith that he'll learn quickly. I'm willing to make that leap too but it doesn't mean he should be treated with kid gloves.

But truthfully, most of my ire is reserved for the man responsible for this assemblage of garbage - Kenny Williams and to a lesser extent - Jerry Reinsdorf.

hawkjt
05-08-2012, 11:03 AM
I was hoping that Robin would not allow Thornton to face Duncan. How many times does he have to see Matt fail vs fastball hitting rightys before he will just do the Tony LaRussa move and bring in a righty to face a Duncan? A Jones or Reed can come in there and present more a challenge than a 95mph,straight as a laser,no solid offspeed pitch Thornton.

Even leftys are hitting Matt these days. He will blow a couple by them,and then they get a ducksnort. He gives up a lot of ducksnorts it seems,as his laser straight stuff does not miss bats over a full at bat.

I do not know if Robin feels he has no options other than Matt,or that he has to go to the highest paid guy out there,or he is trying to showcase him, but Robin has stuck with him too long,too many times already.

As for calling this team garbage, that is bullcrap. They are not great,but just look at the standings,pal. Lot of worse teams out there right now.

SCCWS
05-08-2012, 11:19 AM
It seems to me that over the last few years, the White Sox have been able to call up pitchers from AAA and they are at least respectable. But whenever they call up a position player, they all seem to struggle to hit. Doesn't it seem odd that there isn't one solid young player they have developed from lower minors to majors. Hopefully DeAza will reverse the trend even though he really came from another organization. But I think the drafting and development of non pitchers has really killed this organization.
It looks like the Red Sox may make Youkilis available for some pitching. He got hurt and the kid they called up from AAA is crushing the ball. Maybe the Red Sox and Yankees can get into a bidding war for Peavy in July.

kittle42
05-08-2012, 11:22 AM
As for calling this team garbage, that is bullcrap. They are not great,but just look at the standings,pal. Lot of worse teams out there right now.

Yes. A whopping 8 of them, including such preseason bird-cage lining as KC, Minny, the Cubs, Pittsburgh, and SD.

The standings through less than 20% of the season are hardly all-indicative of whether a team is total garbage or not. I thought the Sox would stink before the season started and I think they'll stink now.

Harry Chappas
05-08-2012, 11:45 AM
I was hoping that Robin would not allow Thornton to face Duncan. How many times does he have to see Matt fail vs fastball hitting rightys before he will just do the Tony LaRussa move and bring in a righty to face a Duncan? A Jones or Reed can come in there and present more a challenge than a 95mph,straight as a laser,no solid offspeed pitch Thornton.

Even leftys are hitting Matt these days. He will blow a couple by them,and then they get a ducksnort. He gives up a lot of ducksnorts it seems,as his laser straight stuff does not miss bats over a full at bat.

I do not know if Robin feels he has no options other than Matt,or that he has to go to the highest paid guy out there,or he is trying to showcase him, but Robin has stuck with him too long,too many times already.

As for calling this team garbage, that is bullcrap. They are not great,but just look at the standings,pal. Lot of worse teams out there right now.

Okay, chief, you keep an eye on those standings. What they don't show you is that only 5 players are hitting over .230, we lead the league in strikeouts, we don't win close games, and our most promising young starter has been moved to the pen.

Oh, and through 30 games, our 3rd, 2nd, and LF who represent the majority of our "young talent" and who are the foundation of our rebuilding effort, have combined for 16 RBI.

hawkjt
05-08-2012, 11:56 AM
Just so I have this straight, I have heard the following teams called garbage this year:

O's
A's
Sox
Tribe
and of course the Twins,Royals,Red Sox,Angels,M's all must be garbage as they are below the Sox.
So,that leaves only the Rays,Jays,Yanks,Tigers,and Rangers as non-garbage teams in the AL.

So,in the esteemed opinion of some either you make the playoffs or you are a garbage team, I guess. Tough crowd.

kittle42
05-08-2012, 12:11 PM
Just so I have this straight, I have heard the following teams called garbage this year:

O's
A's
Sox
Tribe
and of course the Twins,Royals,Red Sox,Angels,M's all must be garbage as they are below the Sox.
So,that leaves only the Rays,Jays,Yanks,Tigers,and Rangers as non-garbage teams in the AL.

So,in the esteemed opinion of some either you make the playoffs or you are a garbage team, I guess. Tough crowd.

You appear to be starting with the assumption that the Sox are a good team, and thus teams that beat them cannot be crappy. That right there is a bad jumping-off point.

Also, the standings through 30 or so games aren't too helpful as a focal point of measuring ability.

amsteel
05-08-2012, 12:27 PM
It looks like the Red Sox may make Youkilis available for some pitching.

Getting a guy like Youkilis would do alot for this fanbase, barring that individual coming here doesn't pull a Dunn. The extended outlook isn't great right now and a big move like that would certainly shake things up.

JB98
05-08-2012, 12:36 PM
Getting a guy like Youkilis would do alot for this fanbase, barring that individual coming here doesn't pull a Dunn. The extended outlook isn't great right now and a big move like that would certainly shake things up.

Why would they make a move like that though? If the Sox were going to make a trade, wouldn't they be better served to acquire somebody younger with upside?

Adding a veteran like Youkilis to this roster would make the Sox marginally better, sure, but would it make them an immediate contender? I don't think so, not with an unsettled bullpen and newfound uncertainty at the back end of the rotation.

KMcMahon817
05-08-2012, 12:49 PM
Getting a guy like Youkilis would do alot for this fanbase, barring that individual coming here doesn't pull a Dunn. The extended outlook isn't great right now and a big move like that would certainly shake things up.

While I do not necessarily disagree, we don't exactly have a surplus of pitching at the moment. Trading a guy like Floyd for Youkilis would be awful. Unless the Red Sox would take Stewart and/or Axelrod for Youkilis I don't see how it would even make the team marginally better.

But I just don't see the SOX adding pieces this year. The last 10 days have really ripped the optimism right out of me. It sucks. Hoping they start winning some games consistently and change my mind again.

amsteel
05-08-2012, 12:55 PM
Why would they make a move like that though? If the Sox were going to make a trade, wouldn't they be better served to acquire somebody younger with upside?

Adding a veteran like Youkilis to this roster would make the Sox marginally better, sure, but would it make them an immediate contender? I don't think so, not with an unsettled bullpen and newfound uncertainty at the back end of the rotation.

Of course they wouldn't content with Youkilis. They would need 2 Frank Thomas clones and 2 2012 Jake Peavy clones to contend. There is no quick fix. A deal to get someone like Youkilis would sell jerseys and put butts in seats (similar, but to a lesser degree to Griffey in 08). The Nestor Molina deal didn't exactly set the fan base on fire. Young guys with potential are a dime a dozen, veterans with realized potential are harder to come by.

Although after the 2011 Dunn-Peavy-Rios fiasco, I don't think the organization has the desire or the stones to acquire a big ticket veteran, particularly one coming off an injury like Youkilis.

My overarching (and admittedly short-sighted) thought is that this team isn't gonna do anything on the field to get people excited, so might as well look to off the field moves to get people interested.

kittle42
05-08-2012, 01:03 PM
A deal to get someone like Youkilis would sell jerseys and put butts in seats (similar, but to a lesser degree to Griffey in 08).

You really think so? Just for Kevin Youkilis?

I think that would be surprising.

Harry Chappas
05-08-2012, 01:13 PM
You really think so? Just for Kevin Youkilis?

I think that would be surprising.

I agree. I don't think we'd see much of a bump in ticket sales for someone like Youkilis. The only cure, IMO, is winning or a mega-star (guys like Pujols, Fielder, etc.) which is obviously not going to happen.

If the Sox do move Floyd, I would hope that we would get a high-level prospect and not someone with unrealized potential like Nestor Molina.

But at the end of the day, we'll be robbing Peter to pay Paul so I don't see how we'd be a better team with Youkilis at the expense of our already thin starting rotation.

kittle42
05-08-2012, 01:14 PM
If the Sox do move Floyd, I would hope that we would get a high-level prospect and not someone with unrealized potential like Nestor Molina.

It's Kenny. I expect a bust.

WhiteSox5187
05-08-2012, 01:24 PM
Why would they make a move like that though? If the Sox were going to make a trade, wouldn't they be better served to acquire somebody younger with upside?

Adding a veteran like Youkilis to this roster would make the Sox marginally better, sure, but would it make them an immediate contender? I don't think so, not with an unsettled bullpen and newfound uncertainty at the back end of the rotation.

Trading for a high priced veteran on the downside of his career? Sounds like a perfect trade for Kenny Williams!

doublem23
05-08-2012, 01:25 PM
If the Sox do move Floyd, I would hope that we would get a high-level prospect and not someone with unrealized potential like Nestor Molina.

Nobody is giving anyone a high level prospect for a few months of Gavin Floyd, I'm sorry, that's just never going to happen so you'd be wise to lower your expectations.

As for Molina, I still don't get where all this hate comes from, especially considering there are as many people who are high on him as there are low.

http://www.chicagonow.com/future-sox/2011/12/evaluating-nestor-molina/

Unless you have personally scouted him, I can't get how people have already jumped to the conclusion that KW got soaked for Santos, especially considering Santos has been downright awful and now injured for Toronto.

It's Kenny. I expect a bust.

It's baseball, you should expect a bust. The Mets got nothing for Johan. The Mariners got nothing for Cliff Lee. Most minor league baseball players, evenly highly revered ones, never do anything in the Majors.

amsteel
05-08-2012, 01:32 PM
As for Molina, I still don't get where all this hate comes from, especially considering there are as many people who are high on him as there are low.

http://www.chicagonow.com/future-sox/2011/12/evaluating-nestor-molina/

Unless you have personally scouted him, I can't get how people have already jumped to the conclusion that KW got soaked for Santos, especially considering Santos has been downright awful and now injured for Toronto.

I think it's less that people dislike Molina, it's that they dislike the deal for Molina. Trading away a young exciting player who had a breakout season for a relatively unknown, albeit good, prospect isn't going to excite alot of people.

In hindsight the deal looks great based on Santos' (non) performance so far for the Jays and Molina's success on the farm, but trading a guy people are used to seeing on a semi-daily basis for someone they might not see for a couple years (if at all) won't get people talking. Talking positively at least.

doublem23
05-08-2012, 01:35 PM
I think it's less that people dislike Molina, it's that they dislike the deal for Molina. Trading away a young exciting player who had a breakout season for a relatively unknown, albeit good, prospect isn't going to excite alot of people.

In hindsight the deal looks great based on Santos' (non) performance so far for the Jays and Molina's success on the farm, but trading a guy people are used to seeing on a semi-daily basis for someone they might not see for a couple years (if at all) won't get people talking. Talking positively at least.

It's becoming more and more clear to me that people who clamor for the Sox to "rebuild" have no idea what that term means.

KMcMahon817
05-08-2012, 01:38 PM
Nobody is giving anyone a high level prospect for a few months of Gavin Floyd, I'm sorry, that's just never going to happen so you'd be wise to lower your expectations.


There is a fairly reasonable option ($9M) in Gavin's contract for 2013. So really, it is for the remainder of 2012 and 2013.

I think the SOX could get a pretty good return on Gavin if he continues to pitch well.

WhiteSox5187
05-08-2012, 01:48 PM
It's becoming more and more clear to me that people who clamor for the Sox to "rebuild" have no idea what that term means.

I get that the Sox are supposedly rebuilding (though they are very limited in how they can rebuild thanks to the contracts they have given out), but I don't get why you trade a relatively young pitcher who has proven himself in the majors and is under your control at a very reasonable rate for the next couple of years for a young pitcher who has no major league experience and gets mixed reviews from scouts. I get that a starter is more valuable than a closer but still, the move doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, especially when you consider that the only scouts that seem to view Molina as a prospective ace are our scouts and our scouts seem to well, suck at evaluating talent.

kittle42
05-08-2012, 01:52 PM
I get that the Sox are supposedly rebuilding (though they are very limited in how they can rebuild thanks to the contracts they have given out), but I don't get why you trade a relatively young pitcher who has proven himself in the majors and is under your control at a very reasonable rate for the next couple of years for a young pitcher who has no major league experience and gets mixed reviews from scouts. I get that a starter is more valuable than a closer but still, the move doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, especially when you consider that the only scouts that seem to view Molina as a prospective ace are our scouts and our scouts seem to well, suck at evaluating talent.

I agree with you on Santos, as he was cost-controlled for like half a decade, but amsteel did say this, to which doubs was responding: "but trading a guy people are used to seeing on a semi-daily basis for someone they might not see for a couple years (if at all) won't get people talking. Talking positively at least."

asindc
05-08-2012, 02:05 PM
I get that the Sox are supposedly rebuilding (though they are very limited in how they can rebuild thanks to the contracts they have given out), but I don't get why you trade a relatively young pitcher who has proven himself in the majors and is under your control at a very reasonable rate for the next couple of years for a young pitcher who has no major league experience and gets mixed reviews from scouts. I get that a starter is more valuable than a closer but still, the move doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, especially when you consider that the only scouts that seem to view Molina as a prospective ace are our scouts and our scouts seem to well, suck at evaluating talent.

Santos is 28. His record last year as a closer was spotty enough to have Sox management reconsider his long-term viability as a closer, particularly as someone who was converted to pitcher just two years prior. Keeping him as the closer, in a partial rebuilding year no less, was really not a slam dunk at all. He had not proven himself to that degree. By the way, in previous threads, others had linked to scouting sites that spoke favorably of Molina, so it wasn't just Sox scouts who rated him well.

doublem23
05-08-2012, 02:16 PM
I get that the Sox are supposedly rebuilding (though they are very limited in how they can rebuild thanks to the contracts they have given out), but I don't get why you trade a relatively young pitcher who has proven himself in the majors and is under your control at a very reasonable rate for the next couple of years for a young pitcher who has no major league experience and gets mixed reviews from scouts. I get that a starter is more valuable than a closer but still, the move doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, especially when you consider that the only scouts that seem to view Molina as a prospective ace are our scouts and our scouts seem to well, suck at evaluating talent.

Santos will turn 29 years old during this season, that is not relatively young, that is a player's prime years bordering on the time when they can generally begin to expect a decline in performance. And on top of that, Santos was blocking the Sox's only prospect of value. So not only do the Sox gain 6 years of development time in swapping Santos for Molina head's up, but they gain another 6 years by removing a barrier out of Addison Reed's way. And all of this is coupled with the well known fact that for a team not exactly expecting to compete in the near future, a dominant closer is an utterly worthless accessory.

FWIW, everyone likes to complain how the Sox are stuck with KW and the Cubs just signed mega-genius Theo Epstein and yet, the Cubs made a strikingly similar deal this off-season when they unloaded Sean Marshall, a 28-year-old pitcher who had a better track record in the Majors as a reliever than Santos, to Cincinnati for nothing exceptionally special.

There is a fairly reasonable option ($9M) in Gavin's contract for 2013. So really, it is for the remainder of 2012 and 2013.

I think the SOX could get a pretty good return on Gavin if he continues to pitch well.

It depends on what you're idea of "pretty good return" is. If Floyd continues to pitch well, you could probably get a guy like Nestor Molina back for him, who some people think very highly of, but is a work in progress. Nobody's giving you a blue chip prospect to rent a so-so pitcher any more.

Harry Chappas
05-08-2012, 02:22 PM
It's becoming more and more clear to me that people who clamor for the Sox to "rebuild" have no idea what that term means.

I think the greater issue is with how we are going about this "rebuild." It's one thing to unload expensive veterans and go "young" but the Sox really haven't 'picked a lane.' The heart of the roster is made of up expensive and for the most part, productive, veterans. The younger players which should be the foundation of the rebuild haven't yet proven to be legitimate MLB starters. And since our farm system is bereft of talent, we can't trade away our productive veterans and back-fill their positions with promising young players because there really aren't any (none that are ready anyway).

Buehrle was a salary dump. So far Santos is the only evidence of a rebuild and he didn't exactly fit the mold of a high-priced veteran. More like youth-for-youth.

And at some point, Kenny is going to have to look for some bats and not just arms. Our team batting average, strikeout totals, etc. are a big reason why this team is below .500.

Personally, I welcome a rebuild, I just don't trust the man in charge of it. I would feel a whole lot better if we were starting anew with not only the manager but GM as well.

KMcMahon817
05-08-2012, 02:27 PM
And on top of that, Santos was blocking the Sox's only prospect of value.



It depends on what you're idea of "pretty good return" is. If Floyd continues to pitch well, you could probably get a guy like Nestor Molina back for him, who some people think very highly of, but is a work in progress. Nobody's giving you a blue chip prospect to rent a so-so pitcher any more.

And Reed is now blocked by Sale, which makes that whole situation even more maddening.

Again, if KW were to deal Floyd in June or early July, it still more than just a "rent a player". 1.5 years+ of Floyd should get a good return. And no, I don't think a blue chip prospect needs to come this way in order for it to be a good return. That simply is not going to happen. But if you cannot get a guy that has the ability to be good everyday player or mid rotation starter, what is the point in trading him? There isn't one.

doublem23
05-08-2012, 02:32 PM
Again, if KW were to deal Floyd in June or early July, it still more than just a "rent a player". 1.5 years+ of Floyd should get a good return. And no, I don't think a blue chip prospect needs to come this way in order for it to be a good return. That simply is not going to happen. But if you cannot get a guy that has the ability to be good everyday player or mid rotation starter, what is the point in trading him? There isn't one.

$$$

WhiteSox5187
05-08-2012, 02:32 PM
Santos will turn 29 years old during this season, that is not relatively young, that is a player's prime years bordering on the time when they can generally begin to expect a decline in performance. And on top of that, Santos was blocking the Sox's only prospect of value. So not only do the Sox gain 6 years of development time in swapping Santos for Molina head's up, but they gain another 6 years by removing a barrier out of Addison Reed's way. And all of this is coupled with the well known fact that for a team not exactly expecting to compete in the near future, a dominant closer is an utterly worthless accessory.

FWIW, everyone likes to complain how the Sox are stuck with KW and the Cubs just signed mega-genius Theo Epstein and yet, the Cubs made a strikingly similar deal this off-season when they unloaded Sean Marshall, a 28-year-old pitcher who had a better track record in the Majors as a reliever than Santos, to Cincinnati for nothing exceptionally special.



While Santos is 28 he has only been pitching for three years when we traded him so the amount of wear and tear on his arm was far less than your typical 28 year old reliever and he was still learning how to pitch. Given Santos' struggles this year and the fact he is hurt does make me wonder if the White Sox knew something about him other teams didn't. The fact that a dominant closer is worthless to a team that is rebuilding does beg the question why are we moving Sale into the closer's role though.

I don't hate the Santos trade really, but I don't like it either. It seems to me like a lateral at best and even that article you linked earlier in the thread said that there are a couple of scouts who think that Molina might wind up as a bullpen guy because of his frame. Trading a young reliever with major league experience for a guy who could be a starter but might also wind up being a reliever because he doesn't have the endurance to be a starter and has no major league experience is a lateral to me and not the sort of trade that a team is rebuilding would make.

Crestani
05-08-2012, 02:36 PM
FWIW, everyone likes to complain how the Sox are stuck with KW and the Cubs just signed mega-genius Theo Epstein and yet, the Cubs made a strikingly similar deal this off-season when they unloaded Sean Marshall, a 28-year-old pitcher who had a better track record in the Majors as a reliever than Santos, to Cincinnati for nothing exceptionally special.


Um....Since when did anyone on this Website start caring what the hell the Cubs are doing....???

KMcMahon817
05-08-2012, 02:40 PM
$$$

Meh. Trade Peavy for nothing in a couple months if you're trying to save money.

amsteel
05-08-2012, 02:43 PM
$$$

I think that's a legitimate concern. They still have some big contracts to pay and I would assume that revenues are down/declining.

asindc
05-08-2012, 02:47 PM
Um....Since when did anyone on this Website start caring what the hell the Cubs are doing....???

I believe his point is that GMs routinely get this kind of return for someone of Santos' caliber, yet some of the people complaining about the Santos deal also sing the praises of Epstein.

kittle42
05-08-2012, 02:47 PM
Meh. Trade Peavy for nothing in a couple months if you're trying to save money.

Oh, don't worry - he'll be leaving, too.

doublem23
05-08-2012, 02:51 PM
Um....Since when did anyone on this Website start caring what the hell the Cubs are doing....???

The Cubs are another Major League ballclub so what they do is very relevant to the Sox in terms of comparison. I find it amusing that folks here are railing on KW for trading Santos for Molina, pretty much saying that no other GM in the game would make a move that stupid, and then you have the widely respected Epstein doing the exact same thing 11 miles away.

:dunno:

SoxSpeed22
05-08-2012, 03:09 PM
There's nothing more fickle in the Majors than closers. I thought the possibility of getting a decent starter for a 29 year old, who's only been pitching for 5 years, was a decent return. Plenty of GMs would have been pleased with the same deal. I don't know what Molina has been up to, but I hear he's been hit or miss.

KingXerxes
05-08-2012, 03:09 PM
Agreed doublem23. I've been watching what's going on with the Cubs, and I fully expect they'll keep moving guys who have any value (Dempster, Garza etc.), and that seems to be the difference between these two organizations. The Cubs seem to be far more committed to rolling the dice on a full rebuilding process - the White Sox however have me very confused as to where they're heading.

WhiteSox5187
05-08-2012, 03:15 PM
The Cubs are another Major League ballclub so what they do is very relevant to the Sox in terms of comparison. I find it amusing that folks here are railing on KW for trading Santos for Molina, pretty much saying that no other GM in the game would make a move that stupid, and then you have the widely respected Epstein doing the exact same thing 11 miles away.

:dunno:

I seem to recall that trade getting panned in the media and on this site. I think the praise for Epstein comes not necessarily from any moves he has made in his tenure with the Cubs but that the Cubs now have a direction and that he has a track record of being able to build a strong farm system. Now how much credit he deserves for that and will he be able to do that with the new draft system remains to be determined.

Frater Perdurabo
05-08-2012, 04:03 PM
Those calling for a full rebuild - and I'm not saying they are right or wrong - should understand it means dealing players that have value to get younger, high-upside, prospects and/or MLB-ready players.

For various reasons, the following have little trade value: Dunn, Rios, DeAza, Vicideo, Lillibridge, Fukudome, Beckham, Morel, Escobar, Flowers, AJ, Humber, Jones, Santiago, Axelrod and Stewart.

Reed and Sale have trade value, but are young, high-upside players that they would want to retain for a rebuilding project.

The only players who will have decent trade value are Thornton and Ohman, because LH relief is overpriced in July, and Alexei, Paulie, Danks, Floyd and Peavy.

Trading three-fiths of the rotation and our two best position players, one of whom is the face of the franchise, will kill attendance and send the Sox to 100+ losses, with no guarantee the players they get back will be any good.

kittle42
05-08-2012, 04:13 PM
Trading three-fiths of the rotation and our two best position players, one of whom is the face of the franchise, will kill attendance and send the Sox to 100+ losses, with no guarantee the players they get back will be any good.

The attendance is already shot and such is the risk of trading, but I think those of us in this camp acknowledge that.

SCCWS
05-08-2012, 04:26 PM
I wouldn't trade Floyd for Youkilis. But Youk would be a solid addition in a multi player trade. He would be a solid 5th or 6th batter, get Morel back to the minors and he could DH against lefties. The Red Sox always have good everyday playerprospects in their farm system so maybe Thorton or Peavy or Floyd could go for a package of a prospect or two, Youk and even a 4th outfielder which the Red Sox will also be unloading when their starters return. Just a thought.

Frater Perdurabo
05-08-2012, 04:39 PM
The attendance is already shot and such is the risk of trading, but I think those of us in this camp acknowledge that.

Some rhetorical questions to consider:

The last time the Sox were truly awful was 1989, when they drew 1.045 million, on the heels of the almost nearly as brutal 86, 87 and 88 seasons. Even then there was hope on the way with studs like McDowell, Ventura and Frank. Is there any reason to think we have any future All-Stars in the current system? With KW in charge, do we think the Sox could draft and develop such studs if they had Top-10 picks in 2013, 2014 and 2015?

Larry Himes got a pretty good return on a fan favorite when he dealt Baines for Alvarez and Sosa. Would Paulie bring a similar return? Could KW get that kind of return for Paulie? Would JR approve a trade of Paulie? Would Paulie approve such a trade?

kittle42
05-08-2012, 04:43 PM
Some rhetorical questions to consider:

The last time the Sox were truly awful was 1989, when they drew 1.045 million, on the heels of the almost nearly as brutal 86, 87 and 88 seasons. Even then there was hope on the way with studs like McDowell, Ventura and Frank. Is there any reason to think we have any future All-Stars in the current system? With KW in charge, do we think the Sox could draft and develop such studs if they had Top-10 picks in 2013, 2014 and 2015?

Larry Himes got a pretty good return on a fan favorite when he dealt Baines for Alvarez and Sosa. Would Paulie bring a similar return? Could KW get that kind of return for Paulie? Would JR approve a trade of Paulie? Would Paulie approve such a trade?

Agreed with all questioning of KW. I don't trust him to get a fair exchange.

JB98
05-08-2012, 05:18 PM
Some rhetorical questions to consider:

The last time the Sox were truly awful was 1989, when they drew 1.045 million, on the heels of the almost nearly as brutal 86, 87 and 88 seasons. Even then there was hope on the way with studs like McDowell, Ventura and Frank. Is there any reason to think we have any future All-Stars in the current system? With KW in charge, do we think the Sox could draft and develop such studs if they had Top-10 picks in 2013, 2014 and 2015?

Larry Himes got a pretty good return on a fan favorite when he dealt Baines for Alvarez and Sosa. Would Paulie bring a similar return? Could KW get that kind of return for Paulie? Would JR approve a trade of Paulie? Would Paulie approve such a trade?

No, no, no and yes, IMO.

It's worth noting that Harold was 30 when the Sox traded him to Texas. Paulie is 36.

KingXerxes
05-08-2012, 05:21 PM
"Trading three-fiths of the rotation and our two best position players, one of whom is the face of the franchise, will kill attendance and send the Sox to 100+ losses, with no guarantee the players they get back will be any good"

One cannot really argue with the above statement, but that's only a part of the story.

I guess my first impression would be if Konerko, Peavy, Pierzynski and the like are not dealt, then the White Sox would have a deteriorating situation on the field with aging players - and this is exactly how you put a franchise into the dumps for years.

The best example, year in and year out, of rebuilding is the St. Louis Cardinals. They've got it down to such an art they no longer rebuild, they reload. They don't have any "face of the franchise" and are constantly moving players (or letting them leave) who they feel are on the down side of their careers.

As far as killing attendance goes, they are innumerable ways to market a baseball team. For the past seven or eight years the White Sox have marketed "winning" as their cornerstone and I would suggest they need to shift away from the all-in mentality and start marketing the future. The problem with that is they have sent out some very mixed signals over the past off season (letting go of some vets and resigning others) in kind of a "one foot in one foot out" fashion. If they have a plan, they need to follow it and sell it because I'm convinced that even if a completely revamped roster doesn't win, even if it just shows progress toward a better future, fans will come out and take an interest. Right now I don't think anybody can tell me what the plan is, and fans are obviously frustrated by a lack of winning. If you go into a full rebuilding mode, fans' expectations will adjust and they will show up.

Peavy is pitching great right now - start calling other teams. Same goes for Konerko, Rijos. If anybody is interested in Floyd, Danks, Ramirez or Pierzynski - listen to what they have to offer. Save all the young arms, and pick up more along the way.

There really is no guarantee of the future if you do this, nor is there any guarantee that any of the prospects you pick up will ever be any good, but that's the art to rebuilding. But if the White Sox do nothing, I can almost guarantee you what the next four or five years is going to look like.

Harry Chappas
05-08-2012, 05:40 PM
Maybe I'm wrong, but when I think of a team rebuilding, I think of a team that has a strong farm system that moves out aging/expensive vets and replaces them with youth. The Sox don't have this luxury which is why I think we're sort of stuck somewhere in between. Moving Konerko, as much as it would sadden me, wouldn't sting as much if it opened the door for a young prospect with a high upside.

When you all but ignore your farm system, you have to rely on free agency to field a team. When you're walking a tightrope in terms of a budget, if the free agents acquired don't pan out (Rios/Dunn, at least last year), you're in trouble which is where I think the Sox find themselves.

At this point, I'm not really sure what the answer is. Hell, I'm not sure I even know what the question is!

WhiteSox5187
05-08-2012, 05:46 PM
Some rhetorical questions to consider:

The last time the Sox were truly awful was 1989, when they drew 1.045 million, on the heels of the almost nearly as brutal 86, 87 and 88 seasons. Even then there was hope on the way with studs like McDowell, Ventura and Frank. Is there any reason to think we have any future All-Stars in the current system? With KW in charge, do we think the Sox could draft and develop such studs if they had Top-10 picks in 2013, 2014 and 2015?

Larry Himes got a pretty good return on a fan favorite when he dealt Baines for Alvarez and Sosa. Would Paulie bring a similar return? Could KW get that kind of return for Paulie? Would JR approve a trade of Paulie? Would Paulie approve such a trade?

Agreed with all questioning of KW. I don't trust him to get a fair exchange.

Agreed; this is the biggest problem facing the White Sox, we have a GM who has completely negelected the farm system for his whole tenure and now we are paying the price for that. I think that it probably is time to completely rebuild but it cannot be done with Kenny Williams at the helm. I have no faith in his ability to evaluate young talent and even less faith in the ability of the farm system he has built to develop that talent.

Frater Perdurabo
05-08-2012, 05:55 PM
No, no, no and yes, IMO.

It's worth noting that Harold was 30 when the Sox traded him to Texas. Paulie is 36.

I think the age difference is mitigated somewhat because by 1989 Harold was pretty much a full-time DH due to his knees, while Paulie is still playing 1B well. I think a contender needing a power hitter of Paulie's ilk might offer a very strong package in return. Maybe not another Sosa and Alvarez, but perhaps the equivalent of one of them.

The next question, then, is do the Sox have enough pitching to deal away to the Yankees or Red Sox to get a package not unlike what they got in return for the 97 White Flag trade? Do Peavy/Floyd/Thornton have equivalent value to Alvarez/Darwin/Hernandez?

Noneck
05-08-2012, 06:56 PM
Larry Himes got a pretty good return on a fan favorite when he dealt Baines for Alvarez and Sosa. Would Paulie bring a similar return? Could KW get that kind of return for Paulie? Would JR approve a trade of Paulie? Would Paulie approve such a trade?

Scott Fletcher was also part of that deal and someone similar would start for the Sox now.

No, The Sox wouldnt get anywhere near the return.

Yes, If he finds out Paul has intentions of playing beyond his current contract.

Yes, If Paul intends on playing beyond his current contract.

DSpivack
05-08-2012, 08:17 PM
I think the age difference is mitigated somewhat because by 1989 Harold was pretty much a full-time DH due to his knees, while Paulie is still playing 1B well. I think a contender needing a power hitter of Paulie's ilk might offer a very strong package in return. Maybe not another Sosa and Alvarez, but perhaps the equivalent of one of them.

The next question, then, is do the Sox have enough pitching to deal away to the Yankees or Red Sox to get a package not unlike what they got in return for the 97 White Flag trade? Do Peavy/Floyd/Thornton have equivalent value to Alvarez/Darwin/Hernandez?

The Texas Rangers team right now relies on Elvis Andrus at SS, Matt Harrison and Neftali Feliz in the rotation; they received those three (and more) in a trade with the Atlanta Braves, who received back only Mark Teixeira* and Ron Mahay, both of whom were just 2-month rentals.

Now, 36-year old Paul Konerko is not in his prime Mark Teixeira. But if they chose to do so I think the Sox could get a decent haul for Paulie.

*Whom they traded away a year later... for Casey Kotchman, who was later traded for Adam LaRoche, who they let walk in free agency. What a disaster.