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View Full Version : Sale Moving to Closer, Axelrod Starting Sunday


kevingrt
05-04-2012, 05:34 PM
Per Mark Gonzales twitter account...

https://twitter.com/#!/MDGonzales

Won't be available till Monday though. Tender elbow I guess.

ElevenUp
05-04-2012, 05:42 PM
Wow, that caught me off guard.:?:

DumpJerry
05-04-2012, 05:42 PM
From the tweets, it sounds like the Sale move is temporary.

kevingrt
05-04-2012, 05:45 PM
From the tweets, it sounds like the Sale move is temporary.

But still depressing. Seems like Stults is going to be starting one of the DH games on Monday.

ChiSoxGal85
05-04-2012, 05:46 PM
****. Sale was a bright spot in the rotation. I understand the move, but damn...

Milw
05-04-2012, 05:47 PM
If his elbow is so tender that it necessitates using him in a different context, then for god's sake, shut him down for a few weeks. Don't put him in high-leverage situations multiple times per week! And if it's really not that bad, then this is just a severe overreaction. This is truly a bizarre decision.

DSpivack
05-04-2012, 05:48 PM
From the tweets, it sounds like the Sale move is temporary.

I'm not so sure about that. Merkin said that "Sale felt tenderness in his elbow, and this move was done to preserve his career."

That makes me think it's not necessarily temporary.

SephClone89
05-04-2012, 05:49 PM
These tweets lead me to believe that this is permanent. Move made in consideration of Sale's career.

sox1970
05-04-2012, 05:49 PM
If he can't start, DL him. It's not that difficult of a decision.

Boondock Saint
05-04-2012, 05:50 PM
That is so ****ing stupid. He's doing fantastic as a starter, so let's stunt his growth by putting him in the bullpen.

DumpJerry
05-04-2012, 05:50 PM
We should trade Beckham and Morel to the Marlins for Buehrle.

DSpivack
05-04-2012, 05:51 PM
If he can't start, DL him. It's not that difficult of a decision.

They're saying it's not an injury.

LITTLE NELL
05-04-2012, 05:52 PM
If his elbow is so tender that it necessitates using him in a different context, then for god's sake, shut him down for a few weeks. Don't put him in high-leverage situations multiple times per week! And if it's really not that bad, then this is just a severe overreaction. This is truly a bizarre decision.

I agree, why trot him out possibly every night in a save situation, how is your elbow going to heal that way.
With Danks stinking up the joint and wondering how long Peavy can stay healthy along with Humber probably no better than a .500 pitcher, we could be in big trouble.

sox1970
05-04-2012, 05:53 PM
They're saying it's not an injury.

So soreness happens because he throws 100 pitches every 5th day, and now he won't be sore because he throws 20 pitches 3 out of 4 days?

I'm calling bull**** on this one.

They're just buying some time between now and the end of the doubleheader. He'll be on the DL next week.

DSpivack
05-04-2012, 05:55 PM
So soreness happens because he throws 100 pitches every 5th day, and now he won't be sore because he throws 20 pitches 3 out of 4 days?

I'm calling bull**** on this one.

It doesn't make complete sense to me, either.

That said, relievers do throw a lot fewer innings. Less stress on the arm?

SephClone89
05-04-2012, 05:55 PM
I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

DSpivack
05-04-2012, 05:57 PM
Merkin, "It's a never say never sort of attitude on Sale returning to the rotation, but he will be closer for the rest of 2012 at the least."

LITTLE NELL
05-04-2012, 05:58 PM
I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

Its tough being a Sox fan, I still pinch myself daily to make sure 2005 was not a dream.

sox1970
05-04-2012, 06:00 PM
Its tough being a Sox fan, I still pinch myself daily to make sure 2005 was not a dream.

Agreed.

DSpivack
05-04-2012, 06:09 PM
Its tough being a Sox fan, I still pinch myself daily to make sure 2005 was not a dream.

Oh, there's always Cleveland. Being a Chicago sports fan isn't that bad, really. Especially these days. Only the baseball teams are a disappointment.

kevingrt
05-04-2012, 06:12 PM
I know it's not an "injury" but...

Rose April 2012
Hossa April 2012
Cutler December 2011
Sale May 2011
Urlacher January 2012

Can it get worse?

Brian26
05-04-2012, 06:16 PM
I know it's not an "injury" but...

Rose April 2012
Hossa April 2012
Cutler December 2011
Sale May 2011
Urlacher January 2012

Can it get worse?

You missed Kerry Wood 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, ....2011, 2012.

DSpivack
05-04-2012, 06:17 PM
I know it's not an "injury" but...

Rose April 2012
Hossa April 2012
Cutler December 2011
Sale May 2011
Urlacher January 2012

Can it get worse?

You forgot Toews' concussion and Forte's season-ending injury.

And I wouldn't take my chances with the latter statement...

Boondock Saint
05-04-2012, 06:19 PM
Merkin, "It's a never say never sort of attitude on Sale returning to the rotation, but he will be closer for the rest of 2012 at the least."

Really ****ing stupid. Addison Reed is there and ready, but somehow it makes more sense to completely **** up the rotation and force Axelrod to carry the weight that Sale's been carrying more than capably.

DSpivack
05-04-2012, 06:20 PM
Really ****ing stupid. Addison Reed is there and ready, but somehow it makes more sense to completely **** up the rotation and force Axelrod to carry the weight that Sale's been carrying more than capably.

It makes me think that Sale's elbow is a pretty serious issue. Who happens to be closer I am less concerned with.

doublem23
05-04-2012, 06:20 PM
That is so ****ing stupid. He's doing fantastic as a starter, so let's stunt his growth by putting him in the bullpen.

This is still a guy who has thrown 126 total innings over the last 3 seasons in the Majors, it could just be part of stretching him out.

Aside from Peavy's freak injury in 2010 and his up and down recover in 2011, the Sox under Cooper's watch have been exceptionally good at keeping their pitchers healthy, so I'm willing to defer to their expertise. Not only are they probably 100x smarter than any of us in terms of coaching Major League pitchers, we only have 1% of the information available to them.

Sale's development isn't exactly going to maintain course and heading by sitting on his butt on the DL.

LITTLE NELL
05-04-2012, 06:23 PM
This sounds like its permanent.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-elbow-tenderness-sends-soxs-sale-from-starter-to-closer-20120504,0,3429271.story

DumpJerry
05-04-2012, 06:26 PM
The Yankees need a Closer. Matt Thornton has a big contract.

WhiteSox5187
05-04-2012, 06:26 PM
That's too bad but not unexpected. Sale hasn't started since college which was what? Two years ago? He has a funky motion that does look like it would put a lot of strain on his elbow and just now the Sox realize that that motion and the fact he has never started a game in professional baseball could lead to problems. It's too bad but indicative of this team's total lack of direction and complete inability to develop any young talent.

Boondock Saint
05-04-2012, 06:26 PM
This is still a guy who has thrown 126 total innings over the last 3 seasons in the Majors, it could just be part of stretching him out.

Aside from Peavy's freak injury in 2010 and his up and down recover in 2011, the Sox under Cooper's watch have been exceptionally good at keeping their pitchers healthy, so I'm willing to defer to their expertise. Not only are they probably 100x smarter than any of us in terms of coaching Major League pitchers, we only have 1% of the information available to them.

Sale's development isn't exactly going to maintain course and heading by sitting on his butt on the DL.

If it's part of his development plan, then why aren't they just saying that? If his arm is sore, they're ****ing him by making him pitch whether he's in the rotation or the bullpen, and he belongs on the DL. Just moving him to the bullpen doesn't fix anything.

WhiteSox5187
05-04-2012, 06:28 PM
If it's part of his development plan, then why aren't they just saying that? If his arm is sore, they're ****ing him by making him pitch whether he's in the rotation or the bullpen, and he belongs on the DL. Just moving him to the bullpen doesn't fix anything.

You don't develop a guy to be a starter by moving him back into the bullpen.

kevingrt
05-04-2012, 06:28 PM
This is still a guy who has thrown 126 total innings over the last 3 seasons in the Majors, it could just be part of stretching him out.

Aside from Peavy's freak injury in 2010 and his up and down recover in 2011, the Sox under Cooper's watch have been exceptionally good at keeping their pitchers healthy, so I'm willing to defer to their expertise. Not only are they probably 100x smarter than any of us in terms of coaching Major League pitchers, we only have 1% of the information available to them.

Sale's development isn't exactly going to maintain course and heading by sitting on his butt on the DL.

True. Still not fun though and frustrating. Just makes us fans anxious.

And part of stretching him out can't be starting him for a month to start the season and then moving him back to the bullpen in his prior role. Hmmm....

doublem23
05-04-2012, 06:29 PM
This sounds like its permanent.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-elbow-tenderness-sends-soxs-sale-from-starter-to-closer-20120504,0,3429271.story

Permanent for 2012 maybe, but not necessarily permanent for his career. You will feel a lot better about this, and probably every, move the Sox make this year as long as you realize 2012 is part of a long-term vision for this team, not an end-all, be-all destination.

However, my last three Sox games dating back to last year, the starters have been Buehrle, Sale, and Humber. WATCH YOUR BACK, PHILIP

doublem23
05-04-2012, 06:31 PM
You don't develop a guy to be a starter by moving him back into the bullpen.

I don't know what the long-term plan for Sale's career is going to be, but for the time being I will defer to the pitching coach who is widely recognized as currently the best in the Majors, with 10 seasons of experience under his belt, 1 World Series title, 3 no-hitters, and 2 perfect games.

Sorry. :dunno:

WhiteSox5187
05-04-2012, 06:33 PM
Permanent for 2012 maybe, but not necessarily permanent for his career. You will feel a lot better about this, and probably every, move the Sox make this year as long as you realize 2012 is part of a long-term vision for this team, not an end-all, be-all destination.

However, my last three Sox games dating back to last year, the starters have been Buehrle, Sale, and Humber. WATCH YOUR BACK, PHILIP

Per Mark Gonzales' Twitter account quoting Cooper: "We're doing it because feel it's best for, his career and his health. It's the best way to keep him healthy and strong." Granted this is a case of interpreting words but to me that sounds like Cooper and the White Sox think the best thing for Sale's career is for him to be a closer.

Brian26
05-04-2012, 06:33 PM
After reading that article, the biggest concern for me is that Sale's pissed off now about the decision. If he's not into this move, he's not going to succeed.

LITTLE NELL
05-04-2012, 06:34 PM
Permanent for 2012 maybe, but not necessarily permanent for his career. You will feel a lot better about this, and probably every, move the Sox make this year as long as you realize 2012 is part of a long-term vision for this team, not an end-all, be-all destination.

However, my last three Sox games dating back to last year, the starters have been Buehrle, Sale, and Humber. WATCH YOUR BACK, PHILIP

The way I read it is that his career is as a closer, they must see something in his delivery that would not hold up as a starter.

doublem23
05-04-2012, 06:34 PM
Per Mark Gonzales' Twitter account quoting Cooper: "We're doing it because feel it's best for, his career and his health. It's the best way to keep him healthy and strong." Granted this is a case of interpreting words but to me that sounds like Cooper and the White Sox think the best thing for Sale's career is for him to be a closer.

But that doesn't lay out any time table. It doesn't say if it's permanent forever, permanent for 2012, permanent for the 1st half... I'm just saying there's a lot of conclusion jumping here.

But if it is a permanent move for his career, Sale is still a lot more valuable to us as a dominant reliever than an oft-injured starter.

soxfanreggie
05-04-2012, 06:36 PM
Knowing Sale's penchant for wanting to start, this seems more like a career-saving move.

[Think teal...] What's Freddy Garcia up to these days? Livan Hernandez? Esteban Loaiza?

Crooked Number
05-04-2012, 06:39 PM
I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

Haha. Nice.

On to the thread: This is a pretty crappy way to begin a weekend. Not good news...

WhiteSox5187
05-04-2012, 06:41 PM
But that doesn't lay out any time table. It doesn't say if it's permanent forever, permanent for 2012, permanent for the 1st half... I'm just saying there's a lot of conclusion jumping here.

But if it is a permanent move for his career, Sale is still a lot more valuable to us as a dominant reliever than an oft-injured starter.

This is speculation here but I do think if they planned to keep him as a starter they would say "This is temporary," the fact that they are not saying that makes me think it is a permanent move. Obviously a healthy and dominant reliever is more valuable than an oft-injured starter but the waffling by the White Sox in the development of Sale either as a starter or otherwise again is indicative of our inability to develop valuable young players. Sale is far more valuable as a starter than as a reliever and it appears that we failed in developing him into a starter.

DSpivack
05-04-2012, 06:42 PM
I don't know what the long-term plan for Sale's career is going to be, but for the time being I will defer to the pitching coach who is widely recognized as currently the best in the Majors, with 10 seasons of experience under his belt, 1 World Series title, 3 no-hitters, and 2 perfect games.

Sorry. :dunno:

I trust Cooper in that he knows best for Sale and for the White Sox. That doesn't mean I think that Coop can magically fix Sale's windup and elbow to make him a starter in the long-term.

Knowing Sale's penchant for wanting to start, this seems more like a career-saving move.

[Think teal...] What's Freddy Garcia up to these days? Livan Hernandez? Esteban Loaiza?

Garcia had a few terrible starts for the Yankees this year after somehow pitching well for them last season.

Chuck Garfein said the Nestor Molina could be called up soon.

TaylorStSox
05-04-2012, 06:44 PM
This is another bummer. I thought he would be an ace. Man, this a hard hit for the franchise long term.

I'm not going to judge the move. I don't know more than Don Cooper and I'm not going to act like I do.

#1swisher
05-04-2012, 06:45 PM
Video: Don Cooper explains the move.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/videogallery/69763248/Sports/Video-Cooper-on-Sale-s-move-to-the-bullpen

doublem23
05-04-2012, 06:45 PM
Sale is far more valuable as a starter than as a reliever and it appears that we failed in developing him into a starter.

Pinning this on the Sox as a "failure" is a bit harsh, no? At most, at any given time, there's only 150 people in the world who are Major League starters. I mean, I doubt the Sox could coach me into a Major League starter, not because they can't do their job, just because it would be physically impossible for me to do it.

They've obviously seen something. The bigger mistake, IMO, would be trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. There's no shame in being an elite closer.

DSpivack
05-04-2012, 06:49 PM
Pinning this on the Sox as a "failure" is a bit harsh, no? At most, at any given time, there's only 150 people in the world who are Major League starters. I mean, I doubt the Sox could coach me into a Major League starter, not because they can't do their job, just because it would be physically impossible for me to do it.

They've obviously seen something. The bigger mistake, IMO, would be trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. There's no shame in being an elite closer.

That a potential ace doesn't have the arm to be able to start is a pretty big blow for the White Sox in the present, and in both the short and long term future.

doublem23
05-04-2012, 06:52 PM
That a potential ace doesn't have the arm to be able to start is a pretty big blow for the White Sox in the present, and in both the short and long term future.

I don't think anyone is arguing that point. If Sale physically can't be a starter, though, I'd prefer he be the dominant relief pitcher we've seen before rather than the next Kerry Wood/Mark Prior

TaylorStSox
05-04-2012, 06:53 PM
This is real the first major story in the rebuilding year. This is a huge setback. Ideally, Sale was going to be the ace you build around.

WhiteSox5187
05-04-2012, 07:00 PM
Pinning this on the Sox as a "failure" is a bit harsh, no? At most, at any given time, there's only 150 people in the world who are Major League starters. I mean, I doubt the Sox could coach me into a Major League starter, not because they can't do their job, just because it would be physically impossible for me to do it.

They've obviously seen something. The bigger mistake, IMO, would be trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. There's no shame in being an elite closer.

Well if he is injured he isn't going to be elite at anything.

This is absolutely a failure of development. Sale was drafted in the first round to be a starter but became a reliever to be of an immediate help in 2010, he should have been sent to the minors in 2011 if the White Sox wanted him to be a starter instead the Sox figured he could be effective out of the bullpen in 2011 but to think he could then just slide into the starting rotation in 2012 after going two years without starting a game and never starting a game in professional baseball was just foolish. It takes awhile to develop a player into a good starting pitcher and the Sox for some reason didn't want to those steps with Sale and took a bunch of half measures which might wind up costing the Sox a potentially good starter. To me this is just typical of Kenny, taking a lot of half steps for winning now but never stopping to consider what the long term implications might be. Sale might be a good closer but a good closer on a bad team isn't particularly valuable and the shelf life of good closers is about three years. It would be shame for that happen to Sale.

BigHurt3515
05-04-2012, 07:02 PM
Our rotation just got worse!! Damn it, I was excited to see him as a starter

Frontman
05-04-2012, 07:06 PM
It makes me think that Sale's elbow is a pretty serious issue. Who happens to be closer I am less concerned with.

That's more of how I'm thinking. It's a move that doesn't make any sense, and nothing I've read by Ventura/Cooper makes me understand the reasoning here.

If its a case of keeping Sale on the active list, then just move him to the bullpen. Why name him the closer, especially since he can't close any game this weekend?

cards press box
05-04-2012, 07:09 PM
I don't think anyone is arguing that point. If Sale physically can't be a starter, though, I'd prefer he be the dominant relief pitcher we've seen before rather than the next Kerry Wood/Mark Prior

I agree. If Sale is saving 35 to 40 games a year, that will be fine. And, lest we forget, the Yankees used Mariano Rivera as a starter early in his career. I was at a game in the early-to-mid '90's where he almost no-hit the Sox. The Yanks eventually made him the closer and he's going to Cooperstown.

Under Don Cooper, the Sox have an excellent record of keeping pitchers healthy. Consequently, if the Sox say that they are making this move for health reasons, I believe it. Sale has a slight frame. Perhaps the extra secondary pitches were a strain on his elbow. If this move keeps him healthy, then it's a real good thing.

One more thought: does this move make it more likely that the Sox keep Jake Peavy thus July, exercise his option for next year and maybe try to extend him beyond that? And does this switch with Sale create an opening for Nestor Molina in the Sox rotation either later this year or next year?

DSpivack
05-04-2012, 07:11 PM
I agree. If Sale is saving 35 to 40 games a year, that will be fine. And, lest we forget, the Yankees used Mariano Rivera as a starter early in his career. I was at a game in the early-to-mid '90's where he almost no-hit the Sox. The Yanks eventually made him the closer and he's going to Cooperstown.

Under Don Cooper, the Sox have an excellent record of keeping pitchers healthy. Consequently, if the Sox say that they are making this move for health reasons, I believe it. Sale has a slight frame. Perhaps the extra secondary pitches were a strain on his elbow. If this move keeps him healthy, then it's a real good thing.

One more thought: does this move make it more likely that the Sox keep Jake Peavy thus July, exercise his option for next year and maybe try to extend him beyond that? And does this switch with Sale create an opening for Nestor Molina in the Sox rotation either later this year or next year?

I don't see it having that big of an effect re: Peavy. His option is for $22 million next season. No way do they pick that up.

Boondock Saint
05-04-2012, 07:14 PM
I don't see it having that big of an effect re: Peavy. His option is for $22 million next season. No way do they pick that up.

He's on a Cy Young pace right now. Never say never.

slavko
05-04-2012, 07:14 PM
Who among us didn't see problems with the motion? Whether we said it here or not.

kufram
05-04-2012, 07:15 PM
I don't fully understand this move yet. But the fact that I don't understand it doesn't mean that it is a bad move or a stupid move. It is more likely that the people making this decision, in Cooper's case a proven professional, have information that make this the smart move. Whether or not I agree with it just doesn't matter because I'm not in position to know anything about it at this point.

gobears1987
05-04-2012, 07:15 PM
We've been talking about Sale's delivery for the last few years. I'm thinking he's another victim of the Inverted W.

doublem23
05-04-2012, 07:17 PM
Well if he is injured he isn't going to be elite at anything.

This is absolutely a failure of development. Sale was drafted in the first round to be a starter but became a reliever to be of an immediate help in 2010, he should have been sent to the minors in 2011 if the White Sox wanted him to be a starter instead the Sox figured he could be effective out of the bullpen in 2011 but to think he could then just slide into the starting rotation in 2012 after going two years without starting a game and never starting a game in professional baseball was just foolish. It takes awhile to develop a player into a good starting pitcher and the Sox for some reason didn't want to those steps with Sale and took a bunch of half measures which might wind up costing the Sox a potentially good starter. To me this is just typical of Kenny, taking a lot of half steps for winning now but never stopping to consider what the long term implications might be. Sale might be a good closer but a good closer on a bad team isn't particularly valuable and the shelf life of good closers is about three years. It would be shame for that happen to Sale.

There was still considerable debate as to whether or not Sale had the frame, mechanics, and delivery to legitimately start 30+ games and throw 200+ innings in the Majors consistently.

Lip Man 1
05-04-2012, 07:18 PM
I'd rather have a healthy Sale out of the bullpen then another starter who can't stay healthy (think Mark Prior).

That being said, as a Sox fan all you can do is shake your head and say, "typical" in the sense that moves were made the past year and considerations given to long term futures based on the understanding that Sale would be in the rotation at least until he hit the free agent market.

Those plans are now all shot out the window.

Not blaming Kenny or anybody, just another case of White Sox "luck."

Wow.

Lip

tsoxman
05-04-2012, 07:20 PM
That's too bad but not unexpected. Sale hasn't started since college which was what? Two years ago? He has a funky motion that does look like it would put a lot of strain on his elbow and just now the Sox realize that that motion and the fact he has never started a game in professional baseball could lead to problems. It's too bad but indicative of this team's total lack of direction and complete inability to develop any young talent.
This. The only reason that the sox were draft and sign sale was the fact that other teams were fearful of his delivery and liklihood of a future date with Dr. Frank Jobe. This is dissapointing, but face it. The kid will not stay healthy as a starter (and may not as a reliver).

asindc
05-04-2012, 07:21 PM
Well if he is injured he isn't going to be elite at anything.

This is absolutely a failure of development. Sale was drafted in the first round to be a starter but became a reliever to be of an immediate help in 2010, he should have been sent to the minors in 2011 if the White Sox wanted him to be a starter instead the Sox figured he could be effective out of the bullpen in 2011 but to think he could then just slide into the starting rotation in 2012 after going two years without starting a game and never starting a game in professional baseball was just foolish. It takes awhile to develop a player into a good starting pitcher and the Sox for some reason didn't want to those steps with Sale and took a bunch of half measures which might wind up costing the Sox a potentially good starter. To me this is just typical of Kenny, taking a lot of half steps for winning now but never stopping to consider what the long term implications might be. Sale might be a good closer but a good closer on a bad team isn't particularly valuable and the shelf life of good closers is about three years. It would be shame for that happen to Sale.

What about the pitching coach's opinion on this?

cards press box
05-04-2012, 07:27 PM
I don't see it having that big of an effect re: Peavy. His option is for $22 million next season. No way do they pick that up.

If Peavy wins a Cy Young or, at least, has a Cy Young-type season, it is hard to imagine the Sox just letting walk away. And with Sale becoming the closer, it becomes even harder to imagine.

russ99
05-04-2012, 07:31 PM
I'd rather have a healthy Sale out of the bullpen then another starter who can't stay healthy (think Mark Prior).

That being said, as a Sox fan all you can do is shake your head and say, "typical" in the sense that moves were made the past year and considerations given to long term futures based on the understanding that Sale would be in the rotation at least until he hit the free agent market.

Those plans are now all shot out the window.

Not blaming Kenny or anybody, just another case of White Sox "luck."

Wow.

Lip

I don't know about the "not blame Kenny" part. Sale is 23 and with his breaking stuff from the left side, he's ace material.

There's plenty to discuss about that, how they rushed him to the bigs, they didn't limit innings in the pen last year and they didn't give him at least a partial year in the minors to transition to starter.

Also, can't help but think this is a "cry wolf" situation. I'd like to believe there's some "weakness" that isn't an injury that won't also affect Sale as closer, or that this isn't some way for Kenny to cover for a half-baked pen to start the year, but with all his efforts to "control the message" the last few years, I can't. As for Coop, he's proven he's Kenny's guy in the clubhouse.

Maybe the best thing for Sale is to go see Dr. Andrews and get fixed. So many young pitchers have to do that, so why not take care of it now and get a potential ace back in a year and a half? Why skirt the issue and possibly make things worse by having him close?

JB98
05-04-2012, 07:36 PM
I don't know about the "not blame Kenny" part. Sale is 23 and with his breaking stuff from the left side, he's ace material.

There's plenty to discuss about that, how they rushed him to the bigs, they didn't limit innings in the pen last year and they didn't give him at least a partial year in the minors to transition to starter.

Also, can't help but think this is a "cry wolf" situation. I'd like to believe there's some "weakness" that isn't an injury that won't also affect Sale as closer, or that this isn't some way for Kenny to cover for a half-baked pen to start the year, but with all his efforts to "control the message" the last few years, I can't. As for Coop, he's proven he's Kenny's guy in the clubhouse.

Maybe the best thing for Sale is to go see Dr. Andrews and get fixed. So many pitchers have to do that, so why not take care of it now and get a potential ace back in a year and a half? Why skirt the issue and possibly make things worse by having him close?

Maybe because he doesn't need surgery?

doublem23
05-04-2012, 07:37 PM
The White Sox "half-baked" bullpen is in the top 1/2 of the league in every meaningful metric to start the season, and this is while working in three young guys who had a combined 12.2 IP in the Majors entering the season.

russ99
05-04-2012, 07:39 PM
The White Sox "half-baked" bullpen is in the top 1/2 of the league in every meaningful metric to start the season.

Except that our previous closer can't throw his best pitch because the seams are too low, and our setup man is on the DL.

If you're OK with Thornton, Ohman and a few kids (and yes some of them do look good), then fine. I'm not. Would Danks pitched the 7th yesterday if the pen were even decent?

russ99
05-04-2012, 07:40 PM
Maybe because he doesn't need surgery?

You've seen Sale throw in the inverted W, that's a big red flag. Now "arm weakness"? It's a matter of time, IMO.

doublem23
05-04-2012, 07:40 PM
Except that our previous closer can't throw his best pitch because the seams are too low, and our setup man is on the DL.

If you're OK with Thornton, Ohman and a few kids (and yes some of them do look good), then fine. I'm not.

I am because, again, 2012 is not the goal here. 2012 is about building to a bigger goal.

SI1020
05-04-2012, 07:42 PM
We've been talking about Sale's delivery for the last few years. I'm thinking he's another victim of the Inverted W. You beat me to it. I was thinking that same thing every time I saw him pitch. I'm actually quite bummed out about this. No, I'm not knocking Coop or Robin for making the decision. I'm just sorry they felt it had to be made. The kid has seriously good stuff, and the Sox badly needed him to be a big man in the rotation.

kevingrt
05-04-2012, 07:42 PM
The worst part about this is the Sox draft another first rounder who will most likely not meet his expectations.

Those expectations being a solid 1, 2, or 3 starter for many of years. Instead we get a closer. And in baseball closers are very much a year to year thing.

Lets just go over the MLB Saves leaders from three years ago (2009): Fuentes (LAA), Nathan (MIN), Rivera (NYY), Bell (SD), Cordero (CIN), Franklin (StL), Aardsma (SEA), Papelbon (BOS), Wilson (SF), and Hoffman (MIL).

So two are injured currently, one is in a lesser role, three/four are closing, one retired, and two are unknown (Aardsma and Franklin). And you have Heath Bell who is closing but is on a super short leash there.

doublem23
05-04-2012, 07:43 PM
You've seen Sale throw in the inverted W, that's a big red flag. Now "arm weakness"? It's a matter of time, IMO.

Again, please don't take offense, but I am going to side with our widely-regarded-as-the-best-in-the-Majors pitching coach

russ99
05-04-2012, 07:44 PM
I am because, again, 2012 is not the goal here. 2012 is about building to a bigger goal.

If that's the case, why have Sale close? If there is no significant injury, send him to Charlotte to build up his arm strength for 4-6 weeks.

WhiteSox5187
05-04-2012, 07:44 PM
What about the pitching coach's opinion on this?

Well if Cooper is saying that Sale just doesn't have what it takes to be a starter than I suppose you listen to him but that would imply an inability or failure in terms of the scouting department to judge a starter as he was supposed to be one.

The White Sox "half-baked" bullpen is in the top 1/2 of the league in every meaningful metric to start the season, and this is while working in three young guys who had a combined 12.2 IP in the Majors entering the season.

It's the first week of May, I am not ready to declare the Sox bullpen a success or half baked either.

DSpivack
05-04-2012, 07:45 PM
Except that our previous closer can't throw his best pitch because the seams are too low, and our setup man is on the DL.

If you're OK with Thornton, Ohman and a few kids (and yes some of them do look good), then fine. I'm not. Would Danks pitched the 7th yesterday if the pen were even decent?

This move has absolutely nothing to do with the current bullpen, and everything to do with how the organization views Sale's elbow and their perceived ability to start going forward.

JB98
05-04-2012, 07:45 PM
You've seen Sale throw in the inverted W, that's a big red flag. Now "arm weakness"? It's a matter of time, IMO.

Maybe he will blow out his elbow, but until that actually happens, I see no need to send him to Dr. Andrews.

WhiteSox5187
05-04-2012, 07:46 PM
Again, please don't take offense, but I am going to side with our widely-regarded-as-the-best-in-the-Majors pitching coach

I suspect that if Cooper is saying that Sale doesn't have the makeup to be a starter he did not just start saying it now which would mean that someone in the Sox organization wasn't listening to Cooper until now when Sale is hurt.

DirtySox
05-04-2012, 07:47 PM
You've seen Sale throw in the inverted W, that's a big red flag.

No it's not. I love how this notion is consistently perpetuated. People need to do some research here.

doublem23
05-04-2012, 07:47 PM
I suspect that if Cooper is saying that Sale doesn't have the makeup to be a starter he did not just start saying it now which would mean that someone in the Sox organization wasn't listening to Cooper until now when Sale is hurt.

Or his arm only started to bother him recently

DSpivack
05-04-2012, 07:48 PM
Well if Cooper is saying that Sale just doesn't have what it takes to be a starter than I suppose you listen to him but that would imply an inability or failure in terms of the scouting department to judge a starter as he was supposed to be one.

Maybe they viewed Sale as a guy with high upside, as he had and has great stuff and was not raw at all. His weakness was his windup and his body; I don't necessarily think it was definite one way or the other as to whether or not he could be a starter in the long-term. I guess at this point they just don't think his elbow can take it. Better to see that now then have him blow out his arm at the end of the season.

kevingrt
05-04-2012, 07:49 PM
Maybe they viewed Sale as a guy with high upside, as he had and has great stuff and was not raw at all. His weakness was his windup and his body; I don't necessarily think it was definite one way or the other as to whether or not he could be a starter in the long-term. I guess at this point they just don't think his elbow can take it. Better to see that now then have him blow out his arm at the end of the season.

Who's to say he won't blow out his arm throwing higher-intense pitches out of the bullpen then the rotation?

DSpivack
05-04-2012, 07:50 PM
I suspect that if Cooper is saying that Sale doesn't have the makeup to be a starter he did not just start saying it now which would mean that someone in the Sox organization wasn't listening to Cooper until now when Sale is hurt.

Or his arm only started to bother him recently

Exactly. As has been pointed out by posters at Southside Sox, his velocity only went down in his most recent start, and maybe he only started hurting after that. Perhaps that soreness and tightness was the red flag to Cooper and everyone else, especially taken along with the decrease in velocity.

DSpivack
05-04-2012, 07:51 PM
Who's to say he won't blow out his arm throwing higher-intense pitches out of the bullpen then the rotation?

Throwing 60 innings in a season is a lot less stress on his arm than 200. Also, he won't have to have as much of an arsenal of pitches as a reliever than he does starting.

doublem23
05-04-2012, 07:52 PM
Hawk talking about how it's easier to find a starter than closer.

:rolleyes:

asindc
05-04-2012, 07:53 PM
Well if Cooper is saying that Sale just doesn't have what it takes to be a starter than I suppose you listen to him but that would imply an inability or failure in terms of the scouting department to judge a starter as he was supposed to be one.



It's the first week of May, I am not ready to declare the Sox bullpen a success or half baked either.

You mean like with Mariano Rivera, Joe Nathan, and Jonathan Papelbon?

Lip Man 1
05-04-2012, 07:53 PM
Spivak:

In fairness though you also have to include the number of times he's called upon to throw and get loose before going into a game. That adds up as well. Jack McDowell told me he'd rather have a bullpen rusty from not enough use than having to throw a lot, then throw more in a game.

Robin and Coop are going to have to be careful with him. He only gets loose when he is definitely coming into the game.

Lip

JB98
05-04-2012, 07:54 PM
Throwing 60 innings in a season is a lot less stress on his arm than 200. Also, he won't have to have as much of an arsenal of pitches as a reliever than he does starting.

That latter sentence is a key point. There are some nights a reliever can get three outs without throwing a single breaking ball (see Thornton, Matt). In contrast, a starter needs three pitches to go through a lineup three or four times.

JB98
05-04-2012, 07:55 PM
Hawk talking about how it's easier to find a starter than closer.

:rolleyes:

He's senile.

WhiteSox5187
05-04-2012, 07:56 PM
Or his arm only started to bother him recently

I do think that Sale's arm may have just started to bother him but I do not think (and this is all speculation on every post in this thread) that the White Sox and Cooper would have said "His arm is hurting, that's it, he'll never make it as a starter. Make him a reliever." Sale hasn't started in two years and is nearly half way to his inning total from last year, I would imagine his elbow would hurt a bit. I would imagine every starter's elbow hurts a bit at some point and it's common to see starters skip starts, that's just part of the maturation process. What I suspect is that Cooper always had his doubts about Sale's ability to start and voiced this to the higher ups in the front office who obviously disregarded this skeptism. Now that Sale's elbow is hurting him they are listening to Cooper. And if Sale's elbow is hurting him now I don't think it will abate by giving him less rest and having him throw more stressful innings. We will see though.

DSpivack
05-04-2012, 07:57 PM
Hawk talking about how it's easier to find a starter than closer.

:rolleyes:

Moron.

Spivak:

In fairness though you also have to include the number of times he's called upon to throw and get loose before going into a game. That adds up as well. Jack McDowell told me he'd rather have a bullpen rusty from not enough use than having to throw a lot, then throw more in a game.

Robin and Coop are going to have to be careful with him. He only gets loose when he is definitely coming into the game.

Lip

Point taken. I wonder if announcing he's closer plays a part in that, as I would guess that closers have less of that warming up, but not coming into a game than other relievers do.

Lip Man 1
05-04-2012, 07:57 PM
JB:

Hawk obviously doesn't remember 1996, 2003 or 2004...where the Sox blew two postseason appearances out of those three seasons because they couldn't find a 5th starter to save their souls.

The 5th starters those seasons were God-awful atrocious...had records like 5-14.

Lip

WhiteSox5187
05-04-2012, 07:58 PM
You mean like with Mariano Rivera, Joe Nathan, and Jonathan Papelbon?

Those guys weren't the 13th overall pick though, were they?

asindc
05-04-2012, 08:03 PM
I do think that Sale's arm may have just started to bother him but I do not think (and this is all speculation on every post in this thread) that the White Sox and Cooper would have said "His arm is hurting, that's it, he'll never make it as a starter. Make him a reliever." Sale hasn't started in two years and is nearly half way to his inning total from last year, I would imagine his elbow would hurt a bit. I would imagine every starter's elbow hurts a bit at some point and it's common to see starters skip starts, that's just part of the maturation process. What I suspect is that Cooper always had his doubts about Sale's ability to start and voiced this to the higher ups in the front office who obviously disregarded this skeptism. Now that Sale's elbow is hurting him they are listening to Cooper. And if Sale's elbow is hurting him now I don't think it will abate by giving him less rest and having him throw more stressful innings. We will see though.

So they obviously disregarded something you are speculating about?

JB98
05-04-2012, 08:03 PM
Those guys weren't the 13th overall pick though, were they?

No. Papelbon was a fourth-round pick, Nathan a sixth-round pick, Rivera an international free agent.

doublem23
05-04-2012, 08:03 PM
Those guys weren't the 13th overall pick though, were they?

People need to get out of this line of thinking. It doesn't matter where a guy's picked once you're putting your team together. What matters is that the pieces fit correctly. Apparently Sale's a better part of the puzzle as a closer than a starter.

People had been clamoring for years that the Sox were hurting because they frequently picked "safe" projects instead of high ceiling guys. Well, this is the downside to the high ceiling guys. Clearly they were right about Chris's ability to be a dominant starter, as we've seen this April. Unfortunately he may not be able to physically endure the stress of starting every 5th day. That's baseball.

voodoochile
05-04-2012, 08:07 PM
Who's to say he won't blow out his arm throwing higher-intense pitches out of the bullpen then the rotation?

Maybe he's got the kind of arm which is throwing 20 pitches a day at any velocity but if you ask him to work 100 on a regular basis he can't handle the stress. Plenty of guys like that around.

Corlose 15
05-04-2012, 08:25 PM
The thing about this move that bothers me is that it seems so indicative of this rudderless rebuilding movement. If Sale doesn't have the frame or delivery to be a starter fine, but figure this **** out before you jerk him around for three years. You can talk about how 2012 is part of a larger plan. I'm not convinced the Sox have any larger plan.

DumpJerry
05-04-2012, 08:28 PM
I love how so little information has yielded so many diagnoses from people who have not talked with anyone involved in the decision or have seen any medical records regarding the condition.

Parrothead
05-04-2012, 08:40 PM
After reading this thread I decided to look at the Sox 1st picks in the 1st round pick. Holy crap it is a record of major suckage. Hopefully the new regime can do better than this.....

2010 Chris Sale
2009 Jared Mitchell
2008 Gordon Beckham
2007 Aaron Poreda
2006 Kyle McCulloch (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Kyle-McCulloch)
2005 Lance Broadway (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Lance-Broadway)
2004 Josh Fields (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Josh-Fields-1)
2003 Brian Anderson (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Brian-Anderson-3)
2002 Royce Ring (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Royce-Ring)
2001 Kris Honel (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Kris-Honel)
2000 Joe Borchard (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Joe-Borchard)
1999 Jason Stumm (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Jason-Stumm)
1998 Kip Wells (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Kip-Wells)
1997 Jason Dellaero (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Jason-Dellaero)
1996 Bobby Seay (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Bobby-Seay)
1995 Jeff Liefer (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Jeff-Liefer)
1994 Mark Johnson (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Mark-Johnson-1)
1993 Scott Christman (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Scott-Christman)
1992 Eddie Pearson (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Eddie-Pearson)
1991 Scott Ruffcorn (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Scott-Ruffocorn)

AshleyShaferBMW
05-04-2012, 08:43 PM
People need to get out of this line of thinking. It doesn't matter where a guy's picked once you're putting your team together. What matters is that the pieces fit correctly. Apparently Sale's a better part of the puzzle as a closer than a starter.

People had been clamoring for years that the Sox were hurting because they frequently picked "safe" projects instead of high ceiling guys. Well, this is the downside to the high ceiling guys. Clearly they were right about Chris's ability to be a dominant starter, as we've seen this April. Unfortunately he may not be able to physically endure the stress of starting every 5th day. That's baseball.

Hopefully Sale continue his early success this year in the bullpen. Now theres another lefty in the pen, so maybe Cooper will realize Ohman is a better piece of the puzzle as a beer vendor than a reliever.

TaylorStSox
05-04-2012, 08:47 PM
I don't know about the "not blame Kenny" part. Sale is 23 and with his breaking stuff from the left side, he's ace material.

There's plenty to discuss about that, how they rushed him to the bigs, they didn't limit innings in the pen last year and they didn't give him at least a partial year in the minors to transition to starter.

Also, can't help but think this is a "cry wolf" situation. I'd like to believe there's some "weakness" that isn't an injury that won't also affect Sale as closer, or that this isn't some way for Kenny to cover for a half-baked pen to start the year, but with all his efforts to "control the message" the last few years, I can't. As for Coop, he's proven he's Kenny's guy in the clubhouse.

Maybe the best thing for Sale is to go see Dr. Andrews and get fixed. So many young pitchers have to do that, so why not take care of it now and get a potential ace back in a year and a half? Why skirt the issue and possibly make things worse by having him close?


Please, for the love of God, somebody sig this. :redneck

You want a kid to have Tommy John before he even tears a ligament? What in the ****ing hell kind of sense does that make? Are you Shoota?

The Sox have obviously evaluated Sale and decided it's in his best interest to not start. It seems like the decision is between having a kid blow out his arm or having him close. This isn't a baseball decision. It's a health decision.

tstrike2000
05-04-2012, 09:29 PM
There was still considerable debate as to whether or not Sale had the frame, mechanics, and delivery to legitimately start 30+ games and throw 200+ innings in the Majors consistently.

That could be the most telling thing. I didn't know what to think either when the news came out that Sale was moving to closer. However, 5 starts and 28 innings of work as a starter just doesn't give you enough to go on whether he can handle starter type innings.

JB98
05-04-2012, 09:58 PM
Well, you can't say we don't have a need for a closer.

That's three of these already this year in only 26 games. Hopefully, Chris is healthy and he settles things down at the back end of this bullpen.

soxinem1
05-04-2012, 10:03 PM
This is still a guy who has thrown 126 total innings over the last 3 seasons in the Majors, it could just be part of stretching him out.

Aside from Peavy's freak injury in 2010 and his up and down recover in 2011, the Sox under Cooper's watch have been exceptionally good at keeping their pitchers healthy, so I'm willing to defer to their expertise. Not only are they probably 100x smarter than any of us in terms of coaching Major League pitchers, we only have 1% of the information available to them.

Sale's development isn't exactly going to maintain course and heading by sitting on his butt on the DL.

I agree. As much as we all liked Sale's efforts as a starter so far, mechanically he still looks like an accident waiting to happen.

Listening to Coop's comments, it sounds pretty permanent to me, and we should not have an issue with it.

At the same time, I think Reed should be given a shot first to close. He has shown the stuff, balls, and mentality for the job.

shingo10
05-04-2012, 10:04 PM
My biggest concern is who is gonna start because Axelrod sure as hell doesn't belong in this rotation if we want any chance of competing.

Parrothead
05-04-2012, 10:07 PM
My biggest concern is who is gonna start because Axelrod sure as hell doesn't belong in this rotation if we want any chance of competing.

The Sox don't have a chance in competing this year.

WhiteSox5187
05-04-2012, 10:07 PM
My biggest concern is who is gonna start because Axelrod sure as hell doesn't belong in this rotation if we want any chance of competing.

Normally I would agree with you but this year I don't really care about competing. Let's see which one of our young guys can do what.

Tragg
05-04-2012, 10:08 PM
This is yet another Sox move for some perceived short term game, at long term cost.
He pitches 3-4 times as many innings as starter v closer, starters are worth far more (see Danks' contract v. a closer's contract). People were saying he could be a dominant starter...so we want him pitching 1 inning very other game.

So to avoid Reed as closer, we have Axlerod as starter.
All closer is now is 1 inning out of 9. You just need a capable pitcher with some stones. The closer rarely has to get you out of jams, unless he pitches into his own jams. This is similar to Williams' trades the last 5 years....short-sighted.

DSpivack
05-04-2012, 10:10 PM
This is yet another Sox move for some perceived short term game, at long term cost.
He pitches 3-4 times as many innings as starter v closer, starters are worth far more (see Danks' contract v. a closer's contract).

So to avoid Reed as closer, we have Axlerod as starter.
Genius.

I don't think they're doing this for the bullpen, and that's exactly what the team has said, especially Cooper--that they're doing this for Sale's health.

kevingrt
05-04-2012, 10:11 PM
This is yet another Sox move for some perceived short term game, at long term cost.
He pitches 3-4 times as many innings as starter v closer, starters are worth far more (see Danks' contract v. a closer's contract).

So to avoid Reed as closer, we have Axlerod as starter.
Genius.

I think this has more to do with Sale's health then it is anything else (ie: Reed closing).

Frater Perdurabo
05-04-2012, 10:12 PM
As others have said, please get it out of your mind that we are "competing" for the playoffs this year. This is a rebuilding year. The only reason the division is competitive right now is because Detroit got off to a poor start.

If we are within 5 games of first place at the All Star break, then we can think about adding players. Otherwise, we should just play the cards we're dealt.

I cannot believe anyone would question Don Cooper on this. Only people who have axes to grind with Cooper would have a problem with this decision.

Tragg
05-04-2012, 10:13 PM
I think this has more to do with Sale's health then it is anything else (ie: Reed closing).
Thanks
Does that mean he's hurt, or that some reports are right - he can't hold up as starter with his delivery.

Frater Perdurabo
05-04-2012, 10:14 PM
Looking forward, the Sox should have a young, strong bullpen, with Sale and Reed both capable of closing, plus Jones and Santiago (who I expect Coop to fix) as 7th/8th inning guys, plus Stewart and Axelrod as long relievers.

Moreover, moving Sale to the pen makes Thornton and Ohman expendable. Veteran LH relievers fetch nice returns in July. With the second wild card, I expect more teams to be buyers at the deadline, which will drive up demand. KW might be able to package these two for a starter prospect.

Hitmen77
05-04-2012, 10:14 PM
Are the Sox sticking with Axelrod as 5th starter beyond Sunday? If he doesn't work out, what are our other options? Zach Stewart?

I don't know about the "not blame Kenny" part. Sale is 23 and with his breaking stuff from the left side, he's ace material.

There's plenty to discuss about that, how they rushed him to the bigs, they didn't limit innings in the pen last year and they didn't give him at least a partial year in the minors to transition to starter.

Wasn't that part of the deal the Sox signed with Sale? I thought he agreed to sign for less than he was holding out for in exchange for an agreement to get him to the majors that season.

I'm not saying making such deals is a good idea, I'm just saying that's what the Sox did to not pay more for a draft pick.

Also, can't help but think this is a "cry wolf" situation. I'd like to believe there's some "weakness" that isn't an injury that won't also affect Sale as closer, or that this isn't some way for Kenny to cover for a half-baked pen to start the year, but with all his efforts to "control the message" the last few years, I can't. As for Coop, he's proven he's Kenny's guy in the clubhouse.

What does this mean? Care to elaborate?

Harry Chappas
05-04-2012, 10:18 PM
There was still considerable debate as to whether or not Sale had the frame, mechanics, and delivery to legitimately start 30+ games and throw 200+ innings in the Majors consistently.

If true then Kenny screwed up. They drafted him as a starter. Instead, they'll end up with a closer who will be no less injury prone...a closer for a "rebuilding" team I might add. An absolute waste. For every Hoffman or Riviera there are a 100 closers with a few good years and then they vanish. And from the sound of it, Sale isn't happy about it. Good luck with that. Typical move for an organization that literally makes it up as they go along.

JB98
05-04-2012, 10:18 PM
Looking forward, the Sox should have a young, strong bullpen, with Sale and Reed both capable of closing, plus Jones and Santiago (who I expect Coop to fix) as 7th/8th inning guys, plus Stewart and Axelrod as long relievers.

Moreover, moving Sale to the pen makes Thornton and Ohman expendable. Veteran LH relievers fetch nice returns in July. With the second wild card, I expect more teams to be buyers at the deadline, which will drive up demand. KW might be able to package these two for a starter prospect.

I don't know what KW will be able to fetch for Thornton and Ohman in a deal, but it is clear the White Sox do not need four lefties in the bullpen. At present time, that is the situation.

kevingrt
05-04-2012, 10:23 PM
If true then Kenny screwed up. They drafted him as a starter. Instead, they'll end up with a closer who will be no less injury prone...a closer for a "rebuilding" team I might add. An absolute waste. For every Hoffman or Riviera there are a 100 closers with a few good years and then they vanish. And from the sound of it, Sale isn't happy about it. Good luck with that. Typical move for an organization that literally makes it up as they go along.

Might as well trade Sale like we traded Santos because just like you said a closer for a rebuilding team is completely worthless. Today is so frustrating I cannot even bring to words how angry I am. And I would not just blame Kenny for this but the whole scouting department in general and a little on Cooper. You have to know going into drafting this kid that his arm slot, delivery, etc. are not conducive in the long-term to starting for this team into his 30's. Thus why are you using a top 20 pick on him? So frustrating.

kevingrt
05-04-2012, 10:24 PM
What does this mean? Care to elaborate?

Believe he is referring to stuff Cowley wrote during and after Ozzie's departure about Cooper and KW.

Parrothead
05-04-2012, 10:25 PM
If true then Kenny screwed up. They drafted him as a starter. Instead, they'll end up with a closer who will be no less injury prone...a closer for a "rebuilding" team I might add. An absolute waste. For every Hoffman or Riviera there are a 100 closers with a few good years and then they vanish. And from the sound of it, Sale isn't happy about it. Good luck with that. Typical move for an organization that literally makes it up as they go along.

Well said:tiphat:

Noneck
05-04-2012, 10:44 PM
I don't know what KW will be able to fetch for Thornton and Ohman in a deal, but it is clear the White Sox do not need four lefties in the bullpen.

Considering the Sox attendance woes, someone fetching their salaries I bet would suit their fancy.

SI1020
05-04-2012, 10:47 PM
If true then Kenny screwed up. They drafted him as a starter. Instead, they'll end up with a closer who will be no less injury prone...a closer for a "rebuilding" team I might add. An absolute waste. For every Hoffman or Riviera there are a 100 closers with a few good years and then they vanish. And from the sound of it, Sale isn't happy about it. Good luck with that. Typical move for an organization that literally makes it up as they go along. Yes.

Might as well trade Sale like we traded Santos because just like you said a closer for a rebuilding team is completely worthless. Today is so frustrating I cannot even bring to words how angry I am. And I would not just blame Kenny for this but the whole scouting department in general and a little on Cooper. You have to know going into drafting this kid that his arm slot, delivery, etc. are not conducive in the long-term to starting for this team into his 30's. Thus why are you using a top 20 pick on him? So frustrating. Hell yes for this except I don't know what kind of input Cooper might have had in drafting Sale.

TaylorStSox
05-04-2012, 10:48 PM
Might as well trade Sale like we traded Santos because just like you said a closer for a rebuilding team is completely worthless. Today is so frustrating I cannot even bring to words how angry I am. And I would not just blame Kenny for this but the whole scouting department in general and a little on Cooper. You have to know going into drafting this kid that his arm slot, delivery, etc. are not conducive in the long-term to starting for this team into his 30's. Thus why are you using a top 20 pick on him? So frustrating.
The upside was worth the risk. He was a 13th overall pick, right? If you can grab a kid who might be an ace at 13, you take the chance.

JB98
05-04-2012, 10:53 PM
Considering the Sox attendance woes, someone fetching their salaries I bet would suit their fancy.

No disagreement here. Neither of those two pitchers is worth the salary they are making.

DSpivack
05-04-2012, 10:56 PM
The upside was worth the risk. He was a 13th overall pick, right? If you can grab a kid who might be an ace at 13, you take the chance.

Yup.

asindc
05-04-2012, 11:10 PM
This is yet another Sox move for some perceived short term game, at long term cost.
He pitches 3-4 times as many innings as starter v closer, starters are worth far more (see Danks' contract v. a closer's contract). People were saying he could be a dominant starter...so we want him pitching 1 inning very other game.

So to avoid Reed as closer, we have Axlerod as starter.
All closer is now is 1 inning out of 9. You just need a capable pitcher with some stones. The closer rarely has to get you out of jams, unless he pitches into his own jams. This is similar to Williams' trades the last 5 years....short-sighted.

If true then Kenny screwed up. They drafted him as a starter. Instead, they'll end up with a closer who will be no less injury prone...a closer for a "rebuilding" team I might add. An absolute waste. For every Hoffman or Riviera there are a 100 closers with a few good years and then they vanish. And from the sound of it, Sale isn't happy about it. Good luck with that. Typical move for an organization that literally makes it up as they go along.

Might as well trade Sale like we traded Santos because just like you said a closer for a rebuilding team is completely worthless. Today is so frustrating I cannot even bring to words how angry I am. And I would not just blame Kenny for this but the whole scouting department in general and a little on Cooper. You have to know going into drafting this kid that his arm slot, delivery, etc. are not conducive in the long-term to starting for this team into his 30's. Thus why are you using a top 20 pick on him? So frustrating.

See below.

I love how so little information has yielded so many diagnoses from people who have not talked with anyone involved in the decision or have seen any medical records regarding the condition.

HaroMaster87
05-04-2012, 11:58 PM
And has anyone mentioned that axelrod is bad?? Yuck, reminds me of how they kept trying to cram Dan Wright down our throats year after year...

DumpJerry
05-05-2012, 12:02 AM
Might as well trade Sale like we traded Santos because just like you said a closer for a rebuilding team is completely worthless. Today is so frustrating I cannot even bring to words how angry I am. And I would not just blame Kenny for this but the whole scouting department in general and a little on Cooper. You have to know going into drafting this kid that his arm slot, delivery, etc. are not conducive in the long-term to starting for this team into his 30's. Thus why are you using a top 20 pick on him? So frustrating.
How dare the Sox' scouts, etc. think this Sale would have worked out with that crazy-ass delivery? After all, he'd been doing for years without injury.......

Lip Man 1
05-05-2012, 12:02 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-questions-linger-after-soxs-decision-to-move-sale-to-closers-role-20120504,0,3638732.story

Lip

Parrothead
05-05-2012, 12:27 AM
How dare the Sox' scouts, etc. think this Sale would have worked out with that crazy-ass delivery? After all, he'd been doing for years without injury.......

Teal intended ? I hope so, 'cause take a look below...the Sox Scouts don't know a damn thing about baseball.

After reading this thread I decided to look at the Sox 1st picks in the 1st round pick. Holy crap it is a record of major suckage. Hopefully the new regime can do better than this.....

2010 Chris Sale
2009 Jared Mitchell
2008 Gordon Beckham
2007 Aaron Poreda
2006 Kyle McCulloch (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Kyle-McCulloch)
2005 Lance Broadway (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Lance-Broadway)
2004 Josh Fields (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Josh-Fields-1)
2003 Brian Anderson (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Brian-Anderson-3)
2002 Royce Ring (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Royce-Ring)
2001 Kris Honel (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Kris-Honel)
2000 Joe Borchard (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Joe-Borchard)
1999 Jason Stumm (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Jason-Stumm)
1998 Kip Wells (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Kip-Wells)
1997 Jason Dellaero (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Jason-Dellaero)
1996 Bobby Seay (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Bobby-Seay)
1995 Jeff Liefer (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Jeff-Liefer)
1994 Mark Johnson (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Mark-Johnson-1)
1993 Scott Christman (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Scott-Christman)
1992 Eddie Pearson (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Eddie-Pearson)
1991 Scott Ruffcorn (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Scott-Ruffocorn)

Boondock Saint
05-05-2012, 12:44 AM
Well, you can't say we don't have a need for a closer.

That's three of these already this year in only 26 games. Hopefully, Chris is healthy and he settles things down at the back end of this bullpen.

Anybody who watched the Sox last year knew that Thornton's a miserable closer.

Nellie_Fox
05-05-2012, 01:06 AM
Its tough being a Sox fan, I still pinch myself daily to make sure 2005 was not a dream.You're old enough to know that this is what being a Sox fan is about.

kittle42
05-05-2012, 01:33 AM
Kenny's throw crap together worked once and has failed every time since. Much like last year ending in Ozzie's departure was a positive outcome, KW being gone after this one will make it worthwhile.

BainesHOF
05-05-2012, 01:51 AM
Who's the manager, Ventura or Cooper? Just checkin'.

This Sale news is a major setback for the organization.

The organization is on the edge of serious trouble regarding poor attendance, weak prospects and a bleak future.

Nellie_Fox
05-05-2012, 01:58 AM
Who's the manager, Ventura or Cooper? Just checkin'.

This Sale news is a major setback for the organization.

The organization is on the edge of serious trouble regarding poor attendance, weak prospects and a bleak future.Why would a manager, especially a rookie manager who was not a pitcher, not listen to his pitching coach? I'm sure he has the final say, but if his coaches have no input, that's not good at all.

doublem23
05-05-2012, 03:52 AM
Why would a manager, especially a rookie manager who was not a pitcher, not listen to his pitching coach? I'm sure he has the final say, but if his coaches have no input, that's not good at all.

Seriously. Cooper is widely regarded as one of, if not the best pitching coaches in baseball now that Dave Duncan has moved on to other things. It would be downright insane for Ventura not to listen to him.

:chillpill:, people

doublem23
05-05-2012, 03:54 AM
The upside was worth the risk. He was a 13th overall pick, right? If you can grab a kid who might be an ace at 13, you take the chance.

Perfectly stated. If there was less concern with him starting, he wouldn't have been available at 13. People bitch when the Sox pick conservatively and end up with Josh Fields. They bitch when the Sox gamble on a high risk/high reward guy like Sale. I'm sorry to inform everyone that probably 90% of prospects never live up to their hype, no matter what you do. Baseball is not easy.

Mohoney
05-05-2012, 04:04 AM
If Sale is now going to be the closer, and this was the fallback option for the closer role, then Buehrle should have been paid the $58 million.

Mohoney
05-05-2012, 04:05 AM
We should trade Beckham and Morel to the Marlins for Buehrle.

Sold.

TaylorStSox
05-05-2012, 09:13 AM
If Sale is now going to be the closer, and this was the fallback option for the closer role, then Buehrle should have been paid the $58 million.
Why? Get it through your head's people...R-E-B-U-I-L-D-I-N-G.

I'm fine with letting KW go and starting over with a different GM, but let's not pretend the organization is doomed. We're in pretty piss poor shape, but some of you guys need to get a grip.

pssondacubs
05-05-2012, 10:44 AM
Permanent for 2012 maybe, but not necessarily permanent for his career. You will feel a lot better about this, and probably every, move the Sox make this year as long as you realize 2012 is part of a long-term vision for this team, not an end-all, be-all destination.

However, my last three Sox games dating back to last year, the starters have been Buehrle, Sale, and Humber. WATCH YOUR BACK, PHILIPKenny Williams has the long term vision of the guy with coke bottle lenses that just dropped his glasses and stepped on them.

kevingrt
05-05-2012, 11:06 AM
Seriously. Cooper is widely regarded as one of, if not the best pitching coaches in baseball now that Dave Duncan has moved on to other things. It would be downright insane for Ventura not to listen to him.

:chillpill:, people

It's hard to chill when the number one bright spot on the season has already been demoted (wrong word but whatever) to the bullpen to "elbow tenderness."

mzh
05-05-2012, 12:06 PM
Why? Get it through your head's people...R-E-B-U-I-L-D-I-N-G.

I'm fine with letting KW go and starting over with a different GM, but let's not pretend the organization is doomed. We're in pretty piss poor shape, but some of you guys need to get a grip.
It's not the R-E-B-U-I-L-D-I-N-G part, as you so finely put it, that bothers us people so much, it's the fact it's becoming increasingly clear that KW has no ****ing clue how to do it. This whole shebang stinks of not particularly knowing what direction to take the team in.

SI1020
05-05-2012, 12:20 PM
It's not the R-E-B-U-I-L-D-I-N-G part, as you so finely put it, that bothers us people so much, it's the fact it's becoming increasingly clear that KW has no ****ing clue how to do it. This whole shebang stinks of not particularly knowing what direction to take the team in. Exactly.

KMcMahon817
05-05-2012, 12:27 PM
Safe to say I am demoralized. I love Sale as a SP. You don't draft a guy where you drafted Sale to be a reliever. I know this is probably the right move long-term, but I still hate it. We have a closer for the next 5+ years, his name is Addison Reed.

I am usually pretty upbeat about the SOX and have been fairly optimistic about this season, but I think this just about does it. In order for the SOX to be a playoff contender, Sale need to start, and he needed to have success. Without him in the rotation, I just don't see it.

But as others have said, including Coop, this is not a move for the betterment of the 2012 White Sox. Sale needs to a starter long-term, I think the SOX need to roll the dice on this one and put him back in the rotation when his arm soreness comes down. Obviously don't think that will happen, but he is just WAYYYY more valuable to the White Sox, both in 2012, and in the future, as a starting pitcher.

sox1970
05-05-2012, 12:35 PM
Safe to say I am demoralized. I love Sale as a SP. You don't draft a guy where you drafted Sale to be a reliever. I know this is probably the right move long-term, but I still hate it. We have a closer for the next 5+ years, his name is Addison Reed.

I am usually pretty upbeat about the SOX and have been fairly optimistic about this season, but I think this just about does it. In order for the SOX to be a playoff contender, Sale need to start, and he needed to have success. Without him in the rotation, I just don't see it.

But as others have said, including Coop, this is not a move for the betterment of the 2012 White Sox. Sale needs to a starter long-term, I think the SOX need to roll the dice on this one and put him back in the rotation when his arm soreness comes down. Obviously don't think that will happen, but he is just WAYYYY more valuable to the White Sox, both in 2012, and in the future, as a starting pitcher.

This says it all.

Pitchers play with soreness. There's a difference between being sore and being injured. If they're going conservative, then they should have DL'd him for a couple weeks, and watch his pitch count and innings for the rest of the season. If the end result is Tommy John, then it's probably going to happen whether he's in the pen or the rotation. So again, the better move is to just leave him in the rotation if that's what Sale wants, and see what happens.

But we get Dylan Axelrod for the rest of the season. Yay.

DSpivack
05-05-2012, 12:37 PM
This says it all.

Pitchers play with soreness. There's a difference between being sore and being injured. If they're going conservative, then they should have DL'd him for a couple weeks, and watch his pitch count and innings for the rest of the season. If the end result is Tommy John, then it's probably going to happen whether he's in the pen or the rotation. So again, the better move is to just leave him in the rotation if that's what Sale wants, and see what happens.

But we get Dylan Axelrod for the rest of the season. Yay.

I'll trust Don Cooper's expertise.

A. Cavatica
05-05-2012, 12:40 PM
What's the major league ETA for Ron Schueler's daughter?

sox1970
05-05-2012, 12:41 PM
I'll trust Don Cooper's expertise.

As good of a pitching coach as Cooper is, I think it's possible he can make mistakes just like anyone else.

And if it's Coop's decision alone, then the Sox have bigger problems. This better be a combination of the GM, manager, pitching coach, and medical staff.

Daver
05-05-2012, 01:03 PM
What's the major league ETA for Ron Schueler's daughter?

She failed, like most Sox prospects that get rushed through the system.

TaylorStSox
05-05-2012, 01:12 PM
I really don't understand how you justify running a kid out there, as a starter, when you know he'll end up injured. "Oh, it's just Tommy John. Go risk your career kid." From Sale's perspective, it might be the difference between a 2 year career and a 15 year career.

Either way, we're not competing this year. Why have Sale ruin his arm in a rebuilding year? Maybe they'll re-evaluate when they feel we can contend.

I was against putting him in the bullpen from the beginning, but it looks like starting might not be in the cards. It's a tough break. If they had a chance to do it all over again, I hope they would. Kid's with Sale type of stuff aren't available as 13th picks very often. I'd roll the dice every time. Ace's don't grow on trees. Hell, we haven't had one since 2006.

#1swisher
05-05-2012, 01:13 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-questions-linger-after-soxs-decision-to-move-sale-to-closers-role-20120504,0,3638732.story

Lip


Video of Sale:
"This is not about me, but the interest of this team. Feels like he let his team down. His elbow became a concern around Oakland."

thomas35forever
05-05-2012, 04:12 PM
I only find it odd that they're doing this while knowing it would create a hole in the rotation. I know Axelrod is in there now, but what happens when Crain comes back? Who gets sent down?

KMcMahon817
05-05-2012, 06:20 PM
I only find it odd that they're doing this while knowing it would create a hole in the rotation. I know Axelrod is in there now, but what happens when Crain comes back? Who gets sent down?

Probably Santiago. Wouldn't be shocked if Thornton was moved if the SOX lose a few more in a row, honestly. The Yankees could use a closer.

I actually think they should sent Santiago down to AAA and put him the rotation. This whole Sale situation really changes things, and Santiago should probably be given a chance to start, especially since he is LH.

Still pretty upset about this. I just think the SOX should roll the dice with this one on Sale. If he's going to get hurt starting, it is probably going to happen out of the bullpen too.

Tragg
05-05-2012, 07:02 PM
Probably Santiago. Wouldn't be shocked if Thornton was moved if the SOX lose a few more in a row, honestly. The Yankees could use a closer.

I actually think they should sent Santiago down to AAA and put him the rotation. This whole Sale situation really changes things, and Santiago should probably be given a chance to start, especially since he is LH.

Still pretty upset about this. I just think the SOX should roll the dice with this one on Sale. If he's going to get hurt starting, it is probably going to happen out of the bullpen too.
Santiago was a starting pitcher most of his career; maybe they'll move him back.

If health warranted this, then fine.

If not, this move is yet another example of Ken Williams young Sox young talent with his affirmative decisions because relief pitchers, including closers, are nowhere near as valuable as starters.

Lip Man 1
05-05-2012, 07:49 PM
Tragg:

Tell that to Hawk. :D: Remember according top him closers are harder to find than starters.

Lip

MarksBrokenFoot
05-06-2012, 12:02 AM
Tragg:

Tell that to Hawk. :D: Remember according top him closers are harder to find than starters.

Lip

Probably because nobody bothers to look.

I'm really upset about this move. Every other young player we've got has been a flop. The one bright spot was Sale. If this is a rebuilding year, it'd be nice if we had a single brick.

Lip Man 1
05-06-2012, 01:19 AM
The Angels have an interesting way in their minor league system to help decide who can be a starter and who could be a closer. Don't know if they've had a lot of success with this method but this is what they do.

As a kid is coming up through the minors they see if he consistently gets tired and begins to lose his stuff after 77 pitches. If he does he's shifted to become groomed for the bullpen and potentially closer material.

If he doesn't he stays in the starting rotation.

Lip

Daver
05-06-2012, 01:33 AM
The Angels have an interesting way in their minor league system to help decide who can be a starter and who could be a closer. Don't know if they've had a lot of success with this method but this is what they do.

As a kid is coming up through the minors they see if he consistently gets tired and begins to lose his stuff after 77 pitches. If he does he's shifted to become groomed for the bullpen and potentially closer material.

If he doesn't he stays in the starting rotation.


That is quite possibly the dumbest theory I have ever heard of.

Do they measure plate discipline by the number of HBP's a prospect has as well?

dickallen15
05-06-2012, 10:21 AM
Santiago was a starting pitcher most of his career; maybe they'll move him back.

If health warranted this, then fine.

If not, this move is yet another example of Ken Williams young Sox young talent with his affirmative decisions because relief pitchers, including closers, are nowhere near as valuable as starters.

Health is the reason this occurred. I think you're correct about a top 3 starter, but a 4 or 5 starter, I agree with Hawk. With Sale and Reed, and even Jones, the Sox will have one of the better bullpens in baseball. If they can get enough pitching to get them to those guys, the future isn't as bleak as some think.

SI1020
05-06-2012, 11:29 AM
Health is the reason this occurred. The more I think about Sale to the bullpen the more I wonder. Was this the only option? Is this just natural tenderness or the result of his pitching motion? Inquiring minds want to know.

Noneck
05-07-2012, 01:14 AM
I actually think they should sent Santiago down to AAA and put him the rotation.



According to Pat Boyle on sports sunday tonight, that is what is going to happen.

Hitmen77
05-07-2012, 10:46 AM
Kenny's throw crap together worked once and has failed every time since. Much like last year ending in Ozzie's departure was a positive outcome, KW being gone after this one will make it worthwhile.

What makes you think KW will be gone after this year if the Sox finish with a lousy record? I don't think JR will get rid of him. My guess is that KW will only leave if he's had enough and quits his position.

SI1020
05-07-2012, 02:26 PM
What makes you think KW will be gone after this year if the Sox finish with a lousy record? I don't think JR will get rid of him. My guess is that KW will only leave if he's had enough and quits his position. Yes, I think JR has shown which one of the two was the real favorite son.

WhiteSox5187
05-07-2012, 02:56 PM
What makes you think KW will be gone after this year if the Sox finish with a lousy record? I don't think JR will get rid of him. My guess is that KW will only leave if he's had enough and quits his position.

If the Sox continue to draw poorly and lose money the minority owners might force Jerry's hand and demand Kenny gone.

FielderJones
05-07-2012, 03:31 PM
If the Sox continue to draw poorly and lose money the minority owners might force Jerry's hand and demand Kenny gone.

What leverage do they have? JR is the managing owner. The others knew that going in.

WhiteSox5187
05-07-2012, 04:07 PM
What leverage do they have? JR is the managing owner. The others knew that going in.

I think that JR is smart enough of a business man to know that he can't afford to piss off his board. I am not sure what they can do, but if they are pissed off enough I would imagine that he would have to listen to them and force Kenny to resign or move him to another position upstairs where he would lose control over day to day personnel decisions.

Noneck
05-07-2012, 04:21 PM
If the Sox continue to draw poorly and lose money the minority owners might force Jerry's hand and demand Kenny gone.

I doubt if any MLB team has lost money in quite some time. The Sox wont lose money.

Moses_Scurry
05-07-2012, 04:23 PM
I guess a back end of Reed and Sale could be pretty amazing and make the starters only really need to go 6 or 7 innings per game.

On the other hand ...

The potential 2013 and beyond rotation of Danks, Floyd, Humber, Molina (?), Axelrod (?) doesn't sound very amazing. If Floyd gets traded, it's even worse. It would look a lot better with Sale in there.

asindc
05-07-2012, 04:45 PM
If the Sox continue to draw poorly and lose money the minority owners might force Jerry's hand and demand Kenny gone.

That is a fan's perspective. Most of the minority owners of the Sox, IMO, are as far from being fans as you can possibly get while still having an ownership interest in the team.

Lip Man 1
05-07-2012, 04:59 PM
The minority owners can yell and scream until they turn blue in the face but JR has it in his contract that he runs the day to day operations of the team and can do what he wishes without having to get approval or consult with the other minority owners.

It's pretty ironclad.

And hiring or firing a G.M. clearly falls under 'day to day' operations.

Lip

shes
05-08-2012, 12:32 PM
I guess a back end of Reed and Sale could be pretty amazing and make the starters only really need to go 6 or 7 innings per game.

On the other hand ...

The potential 2013 and beyond rotation of Danks, Floyd, Humber, Molina (?), Axelrod (?) doesn't sound very amazing. If Floyd gets traded, it's even worse. It would look a lot better with Sale in there.

I highly doubt Sale won't start next year as a starter, especially considering that he really, really wants to start. Pretty sure no one wants to piss off our best young player.

LITTLE NELL
05-08-2012, 12:54 PM
I was wondering, what if Sale feels that he really wants to start and that the Sox are hampering his money making potential by telling him he has to close. Could he demand a trade or file a grievance with the players union?

asindc
05-08-2012, 01:02 PM
I was wondering, what if Sale feels that he really wants to start and that the Sox are hampering his money making potential by telling him he has to close. Could he demand a trade or file a grievance with the players union?

Boston went through this with Papelbon and LAAAAA with Jenks. The only reason these guys care if they start or not is $$$$$. Not that I blame them, but if there is a confirmed medical reason for why a guy can't start, I don't know how much demanding a trade or filing a grievance is going to help him.

doublem23
05-08-2012, 01:04 PM
Boston went through this with Papelbon and LAAAAA with Jenks. The only reason these guys care if they start or not is $$$$$. Not that I blame them, but if there is a confirmed medical reason for why a guy can't start, I don't know how much demanding a trade or filing a grievance is going to help him.

Not to mention top closers make pretty solid cash. Maybe if the Sox were burying Sale as the 6th or 7th inning guy, but if he is a lights out closer, he's going to make his money

KMcMahon817
05-08-2012, 01:12 PM
Boston went through this with Papelbon and LAAAAA with Jenks. The only reason these guys care if they start or not is $$$$$. Not that I blame them, but if there is a confirmed medical reason for why a guy can't start, I don't know how much demanding a trade or filing a grievance is going to help him.

Ahhhh...money is far from the only reason some guys want to start. Not saying it doesn't have an effect, or even a big one, but some of these guys have been starters their whole life and that is just what they want to do. Sale has been starting games since he was a kid; it is just simply what he wants to do.

kufram
05-08-2012, 02:03 PM
From what I've read of Sale's comments it sounds like disappointment as opposed to anger at the decision. You can't blame the kid, but I don't think he is as upset as some people here.

Three months from now, if he does as good a job closing as he has starting, everyone will be happy.

Nellie_Fox
05-08-2012, 03:36 PM
I was wondering, what if Sale feels that he really wants to start and that the Sox are hampering his money making potential by telling him he has to close. Could he demand a trade or file a grievance with the players union?No more so than a player who doesn't want to play left field, or doesn't want to be a DH. Unless a certain position is specified in the contract (which I can't imagine any team agreeing to) they'd have no standing to grieve or demand a trade. There'd be hundreds of grievances by guys trying to improve their bargaining position.

I don't care how "pissed" he is. Can you imagine if managers started making their lineup decisions based on what players want to do instead of what's best for the team?

kufram
05-08-2012, 03:41 PM
No more so than a player who doesn't want to play left field, or doesn't want to be a DH. Unless a certain position is specified in the contract (which I can't imagine any team agreeing to) they'd have no standing to grieve or demand a trade. There'd be hundreds of grievances by guys trying to improve their bargaining position.

I don't care how "pissed" he is. Can you imagine if managers started making their lineup decisions based on what players want to do instead of what's best for the team?

Please tell me the only answer to the question "where do you want to play, kid"? is still "anywhere the manager tells me to".

sullythered
05-08-2012, 03:45 PM
Please tell me the only answer to the question "where do you want to play, kid"? is still "anywhere the manager tells me to".

A friend of mine coaches JV baseball at a high school in the western suburbs. When he wants to change something a kid is doing, even when they're badly struggling, he hears from "recruiting coordinators."

LITTLE NELL
05-08-2012, 03:47 PM
No more so than a player who doesn't want to play left field, or doesn't want to be a DH. Unless a certain position is specified in the contract (which I can't imagine any team agreeing to) they'd have no standing to grieve or demand a trade. There'd be hundreds of grievances by guys trying to improve their bargaining position.

I don't care how "pissed" he is. Can you imagine if managers started making their lineup decisions based on what players want to do instead of what's best for the team?

I think you may be comparing apples and oranges here. If a guy can hit he's going to make big bucks regardless of where he plays, DH or LF.
I'm pretty sure if we made a study we would find that great starting pitchers make more money than great closers. Peavy if the Sox pick up his contract which they won't can make $22,000,000 next year. I don't know any closers that make that kind of money. Hell, his buyout is $4,000,000 and wasn't Jenks making that with the Sox.


PS Just found this site on salaries, Starters make more than closers but there won't have to be any tag days for relief pitchers.

http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/mlb/starting-pitcher/

Noneck
05-08-2012, 04:06 PM
Starting pitchers definitely make more than reliefers and starters will get a longer term contract also. I would think that most if not all pitchers would choose being a starter over a reliefer.

Nellie_Fox
05-08-2012, 05:15 PM
I think you may be comparing apples and oranges here. If a guy can hit he's going to make big bucks regardless of where he plays, DH or LF.
I'm pretty sure if we made a study we would find that great starting pitchers make more money than great closers. Peavy if the Sox pick up his contract which they won't can make $22,000,000 next year. I don't know any closers that make that kind of money. Hell, his buyout is $4,000,000 and wasn't Jenks making that with the Sox.


PS Just found this site on salaries, Starters make more than closers but there won't have to be any tag days for relief pitchers.

http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/mlb/starting-pitcher/

Starting pitchers definitely make more than reliefers and starters will get a longer term contract also. I would think that most if not all pitchers would choose being a starter over a reliefer.That doesn't mean they can file grievances over their assignment. Like I said, if players could grieve because they have more earning potential with some other job assignment, the list of grievances would be endless.