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View Full Version : *Official* Walk 'Em and Gopher 'Em Postgame Thread


thomas35forever
05-02-2012, 10:57 PM
Yeah, that wasn't pretty.

tstrike2000
05-02-2012, 11:00 PM
Blah. Too many walks, too many mistakes, too many fastballs down the middle. Win the series tomorrow.

Frater Perdurabo
05-02-2012, 11:01 PM
I'm not blaming this loss on the home plate ump.

Nevertheless, I have had enough of arbitrary strike zones. I understand that discretion and latitude are needed to judge whether a pitch is too high or too low. But a pitch is either over the plate or it is not. Period. We don't need fallible human beings making calls that can be made electronically with a much higher degree of accuracy and precision.

Boondock Saint
05-02-2012, 11:02 PM
The pitching wasn't good, but the hitting was really bad, too. Only got a runner in scoring position twice all game.

JB98
05-02-2012, 11:06 PM
Just walked too many guys tonight. You keep giving the opponent baserunners, eventually some are going to score.

Dunn is still swinging the bat well. Him and Manto have obviously figured some stuff out.

PalehosePlanet
05-02-2012, 11:10 PM
Gordon doesn't get the glove or his ass down on a ground ball that should have ended the inning and costs us three runs. But hey at least he's hitting .185 to justify being on the team!

And since Hawk says the ball was "hit hard" that should buy him another 5 weeks with the big league club.

TDog
05-02-2012, 11:13 PM
Superficially, the error turned the game around, but pitchers who are wild, going through long counts and walking hitters tend to have more defensive mistakes made behind them.

It was nice to see the Sox come back with a big two-out hit after the Indians took the lead. At first I was surprised to see Ohman come out for a second inning, but I concluded that Ventura must have designated Thornton as his closer (which, could be argued based on his performance, would have ended badly anyway), leaving Ohman as the southpaw from the Sox pen who was going against the lefty lineup, especially with the score tied. It was as if Ventura was challenging the Indians to pinch-hit so he could bring in Reed. I could be wrong, but that would have been consistent with the moves he made.

Humber's poor control put the White Sox in a position to lose, but it was a winable game. Really, he deserves credit for pitching out of as many jams as he did, especially after he was hit so hard by the Red Sox to open the homestand.

JB98
05-02-2012, 11:15 PM
Gordon doesn't get the glove or his ass down on a ground ball that should have ended the inning and costs us three runs. But hey at least he's hitting .185 to justify being on the team!

And since Hawk says the ball was "hit hard" that should buy him another 5 weeks with the big league club.

For me, he has until Memorial Day to get his **** together. Then we'll see where we're at. It isn't like the organization is brimming with other options anyway.

Aesero
05-02-2012, 11:21 PM
That home plate ump was atrocious. Both with his strike zone and stepping out mid Humber wind up twice. Not saying that he's the reason the sox walked so many, just that in general he was pretty bad.

Sox still can't win a game when in first place :(:

Lip Man 1
05-02-2012, 11:26 PM
You can talk about the umpiring but as someone else already posted the offense is going to sleep again. Five of the last eight games they've scored three runs or less.

Hard to win when you don't score and keep putting that type of pressure of your pitching staff to be "perfect."

Lip

LoveYourSuit
05-02-2012, 11:26 PM
The offense continues to suck.

ChiSoxGal85
05-02-2012, 11:29 PM
That home plate ump was atrocious. Both with his strike zone and stepping out mid Humber wind up twice. Not saying that he's the reason the sox walked so many, just that in general he was pretty bad.

Sox still can't win a game when in first place :(:
Yep, Philip got squeezed, especially in the early innings. And then he couldn't seem to adjust. Not his best performance, but I'll give him a break because his wife delivered their first child last night.

I don't get the Ohman-in-for-more-than-1-inning strategy myself; it feels like Robin's playing with fire.

Offense looked pretty ineffectual in general, except for Dunn. Ah, well, get 'em tomorrow.

JB98
05-02-2012, 11:30 PM
The offense continues to suck.

Konerko and Pierzynski could only carry the team for so long. They are cooling off a bit now. Dunn is stepping up and Ramirez had a big hit tonight. Everybody else, meh.

kevingrt
05-02-2012, 11:41 PM
The offense hasn't been that bad. Sox are 17th in runs and 18th in OPS in MLB. It could be worse.

The walks killed them tonight, not the hitting.

PalehosePlanet
05-02-2012, 11:45 PM
For me, he has until Memorial Day to get his **** together. Then we'll see where we're at. It isn't like the organization is brimming with other options anyway.

He needs to be sent down immediately, if we want to try to resurrect/save his career. Same with Morel.

There are FA's that are available for next to nothing as stop-gap types: Edgar Renteria, Aaron Miles, Jorge Cantu, Felipe Lopez, etc...

JB98
05-02-2012, 11:51 PM
He needs to be sent down immediately, if we want to try to resurrect/save his career. Same with Morel.

There are FA's that are available for next to nothing as stop-gap types: Edgar Renteria, Aaron Miles, Jorge Cantu, Felipe Lopez, etc...

There is a reason all of those guys are FAs. They all either suck or are washed up.

You can't learn to hit big-league pitching in AAA. We're only 24 games into the season. I think the Sox are doing the right thing by staying patient. There is a time when patience runs out, but I don't think we've reached that point yet.

PalehosePlanet
05-03-2012, 12:01 AM
There is a reason all of those guys are FAs. They all either suck or are washed up.

You can't learn to hit big-league pitching in AAA. We're only 24 games into the season. I think the Sox are doing the right thing by staying patient. There is a time when patience runs out, but I don't think we've reached that point yet.

Beckham and Morel need to go down to save their sanity, if nothing else. We are doing them no favors by forcing them out there night after night. Their confidence is shot and AAA is where they need to gain it back. All of the guys mentioned who you say "suck" or are "washed up" are still much better than these two -- sad but true.

JB98
05-03-2012, 12:16 AM
Beckham and Morel need to go down to save their sanity, if nothing else. We are doing them no favors by forcing them out there night after night. Their confidence is shot and AAA is where they need to gain it back. All of the guys mentioned who you say "suck" or are "washed up" are still much better than these two -- sad but true.

I don't pretend to know what kind of mental state Beckham and Morel are in. Perhaps some Sox fans have lost their sanity watching these guys struggle at the plate, but that doesn't mean the players themselves have lost their sanity. I would assume the manager and the coaching staff have their fingers on the pulse of that and will do the right thing by these players.

The last thing this organization should be doing is wasting time giving at-bats to retreads like those you mentioned. If the Sox send Beckham down, they would be better off giving Escobar some experience than wasting precious resources on guys who are either past their prime or never had a prime.

For me, it doesn't even matter if Aaron Miles is better than Gordon Beckham at this moment. We have no way of knowing for certain if that's the case, and frankly, I have no interest in finding out. I don't want guys like that here.

The Sox are only a game out of first. They can afford to be patient. Really, they can.

amsteel
05-03-2012, 01:32 AM
Yer not gonna win many games in which you score 3 runs.

Also, I'm interested in this concept of hitting HRs with men on base the Indians showed us tonite.

SoxSpeed22
05-03-2012, 01:48 AM
Ah, what are you gonna do? Just win the series tomorrow.

hawkjt
05-03-2012, 02:31 AM
Sorry,but I can blame the ump for that many walks. They show the box on a third pitch of an at bat vs Humber and all three pitches are in the box,but the count is 2-1. That is ridiculous. I can see missing an occasional pitch,but 2 of every 3? That ump cost the Sox the game,period. Humber had to throw it right down the middle to get a strike called,and they eventually bang those pitches.

As for the offense, well, not good,but Tomlin's curve was breaking off the table tonite. Sox are one game back,so no panic needed. Gordo and Morel are either going to hit or the Sox will have to move them next offseason.

They get this year to prove themselves,and I think they will. \
Last year fans were screaming to get Dayan up here,and now he is here and he is stuggling...it is not easy to hit at this level gang. Ohman just seems to only hold up so long,then caves,and Matty is hit or miss. Bullpen gave it up tonite.

chisoxfanatic
05-03-2012, 08:45 AM
You can talk about the umpiring but as someone else already posted the offense is going to sleep again. Five of the last eight games they've scored three runs or less.

Hard to win when you don't score and keep putting that type of pressure of your pitching staff to be "perfect."

Lip
That is a big concern. If the hitting continues in this manner, our pitching staff is going to at some point "give" and then pretty much the entire team will drop into a deep funk. The earlier this can be corrected, the better.

SCCWS
05-03-2012, 10:49 AM
I think Beckham should go down but I have one concern. If Beckham struggled doing things Walker's way, then maybe he has made adjustments to do things Manto's way. Now you send him down to AAA and have the guy who worked w Viciedo, Escobar and Flowers ( all struggling temselves) change him again.
I think you let Escobar play for a few weeks and let Beckham fill in and continue to work w Manto.

Foulke You
05-03-2012, 10:59 AM
You can talk about the umpiring but as someone else already posted the offense is going to sleep again. Five of the last eight games they've scored three runs or less.

Hard to win when you don't score and keep putting that type of pressure of your pitching staff to be "perfect."

Lip
Agree. I can't think of a single game this year where our offense bailed out the pitching staff when they had a bad day. Sometimes you need to win a game 9-7 when your pitching is off. This hasn't happened this year but fortunately, there haven't been too many games where our pitching was that off. Also, last night's game continued our trend of getting outslugged in our own ballpark.

GlassSox
05-03-2012, 11:05 AM
There is a reason all of those guys are FAs. They all either suck or are washed up.

You can't learn to hit big-league pitching in AAA. We're only 24 games into the season. I think the Sox are doing the right thing by staying patient. There is a time when patience runs out, but I don't think we've reached that point yet.

I understand your point but I wonder at what point the patience runs out and management decides that Beckham has failed to adjust to big league pitching. This is early in year four for him and other than plate appearances, his numbers in the 1st three years all declined. The big league pitchers have adjusted to him and I really hope that he figures it out.

Foulke You
05-03-2012, 11:18 AM
I don't pretend to know what kind of mental state Beckham and Morel are in. Perhaps some Sox fans have lost their sanity watching these guys struggle at the plate, but that doesn't mean the players themselves have lost their sanity. I would assume the manager and the coaching staff have their fingers on the pulse of that and will do the right thing by these players.

The last thing this organization should be doing is wasting time giving at-bats to retreads like those you mentioned. If the Sox send Beckham down, they would be better off giving Escobar some experience than wasting precious resources on guys who are either past their prime or never had a prime.

For me, it doesn't even matter if Aaron Miles is better than Gordon Beckham at this moment. We have no way of knowing for certain if that's the case, and frankly, I have no interest in finding out. I don't want guys like that here.

The Sox are only a game out of first. They can afford to be patient. Really, they can.
I agree that the switch hitting Escobar should be the first replacement option for Beckham/Morel or *maybe* even Lillibridge if you are willing to sacrifice defense. However, if the internal replacements don't work out and you still find yourself in the thick of the AL Central race in late June or early July, I would have no problems with KW exploring some available veteran options. I agree that May 3rd is too early to start adding vets.

Chez
05-03-2012, 11:26 AM
I think Beckham should go down but I have one concern. If Beckham struggled doing things Walker's way, then maybe he has made adjustments to do things Manto's way. Now you send him down to AAA and have the guy who worked w Viciedo, Escobar and Flowers ( all struggling temselves) change him again.
I think you let Escobar play for a few weeks and let Beckham fill in and continue to work w Manto.

What has Escobar done to give you any confidence that he would be an upgrade? Posters want Escobar simply because he's not Beckham. But Escobar has looked over-matched at the plate and his defense isn't nearly as solid as Beckham's. The Sox have no viable alternative to Beckham unless you feel middle infield defense is unimportant. Beckham turns the double-play as well as any 2B in the AL -- very important to our pitching staff.

amsteel
05-03-2012, 11:44 AM
I don't know if you can glean too much from these, but here are some standout offensive stats for the Sox:

-They lead the league in K% (not shocking considering Dunn, Morel, and Beckham are good for at least 4-5 Ks/game)
-They foul off as many pitches as anyone in the AL
-But they put the fewest balls into play of anyone in the AL
-Just below average on BA on balls in play
-23% of the Sox HRs are w/ men on, the league average is 39%
-Slightly (~0.010) below average BA w/ men on and RISP, but are batting 0.192 (52 points below average) w/ no one on.

2 & 3, seem really incongruous. Is everyone 'just off'?

Foulke You
05-03-2012, 11:48 AM
What has Escobar done to give you any confidence that he would be an upgrade? Posters want Escobar simply because he's not Beckham. But Escobar has looked over-matched at the plate and his defense isn't nearly as solid as Beckham's. The Sox have no viable alternative to Beckham unless you feel middle infield defense is unimportant. Beckham turns the double-play as well as any 2B in the AL -- very important to our pitching staff.
There is absolutely no sample size big enough on Escobar to make any definitive determination on his playing ability. He comes in with a scouting report of being a plus defender and a former SS with a strong arm so you have to assume it wouldn't be a huge downgrade on defense. Beckham had all of 2010, all of 2011, and the first month of 2012. Over 1000 MLB at bats. I want Gordon to succeed too but he isn't a raw prospect anymore. Escobar has 20 at bats in the big leagues. He might not be the answer but you don't know unless you play him.

doublem23
05-03-2012, 11:53 AM
There is absolutely no sample size big enough on Escobar to make any definitive determination on his playing ability. He comes in with a scouting report of being a plus defender and a former SS with a strong arm so you have to assume it wouldn't be a huge downgrade on defense. Beckham had all of 2010, all of 2011, and the first month of 2012. Over 1000 MLB at bats. I want Gordon to succeed too but he isn't a raw prospect anymore. Escobar has 20 at bats in the big leagues. He might not be the answer but you don't know unless you play him.

Except that Escobar was a below average hitter in the minor leagues. You've got almost 2,400 PA over 6 seasons that produced a slash line of .270/.315/.351.

kittle42
05-03-2012, 12:09 PM
Except that Escobar was a below average hitter in the minor leagues. You've got almost 2,400 PA over 6 seasons that produced a slash line of .270/.315/.351.

Those are 1980's light hitting SS all-star numbers!

JB98
05-03-2012, 01:30 PM
I understand your point but I wonder at what point the patience runs out and management decides that Beckham has failed to adjust to big league pitching. This is early in year four for him and other than plate appearances, his numbers in the 1st three years all declined. The big league pitchers have adjusted to him and I really hope that he figures it out.

There will come a point where patience runs out, no question. Like I said earlier in the thread, I think you give it until Memorial Day and see where we're at then. By that point, you've got roughly 50 games off the schedule and that's plenty enough sample size to make some judgments.

You are absolutely correct that Beckham's numbers have declined every year. I don't think you can completely wipe the slate clean just because there is a new manager and a new hitting coach this year, but at the same time, you want to at least give guys opportunities to make a fresh start under a new regime.

So far, it looks like Dunn is going to rebound to his career norms. Rios isn't hitting for much pop, but at least he has rediscovered that it's legal to hit the ball to right field. The one struggling hitter from last year who hasn't shown anything at all is Beckham. Ozzie and Walker couldn't help Gordon, and maybe Ventura and Manto can't either. Maybe Beckham just sucks. But I want to give the kid 50 or so games under the new regime before I kick him to the curb.

It would be one thing if the organization had another big infield prospect that was being blocked by Beckham. That's not the case, so I figure let's ride this out another month and see what happens. Not a popular opinion in the "win now" culture, I know, but I disagree with the idea that Beckham should go to AAA right now. Maybe I'll feel differently on June 1.

WhiteSox5187
05-03-2012, 03:03 PM
Those are 1980's light hitting SS all-star numbers!

Here is something I don't get, those numbers are perfectly acceptable out of a nine hitter. I know that with this lineup we can't really afford to have another nine hitter but in general I would absolutely take those numbers out of a guy in the lower end of my lineup if he can play great defense as well.

doublem23
05-03-2012, 03:27 PM
Here is something I don't get, those numbers are perfectly acceptable out of a nine hitter. I know that with this lineup we can't really afford to have another nine hitter but in general I would absolutely take those numbers out of a guy in the lower end of my lineup if he can play great defense as well.

Yeah but those numbers were compiled in A to AAA ball, anyone who thinks Escobar is going to be hitting .270 in the Majors is cray cray

LITTLE NELL
05-03-2012, 03:58 PM
Yer not gonna win many games in which you score 3 runs.

Also, I'm interested in this concept of hitting HRs with men on base the Indians showed us tonite.

Are teams now allowed to do that?
Maybe the Sox didn't get the memo.

Lip Man 1
05-03-2012, 04:05 PM
At one point last week 16 of the Sox 21 home runs for the year were solo shots. Don't know what the latest numbers show.

Lip

amsteel
05-03-2012, 04:22 PM
At one point last week 16 of the Sox 21 home runs for the year were solo shots. Don't know what the latest numbers show.

Lip

20 of 26 are 1-run specials

Foulke You
05-03-2012, 04:39 PM
Yeah but those numbers were compiled in A to AAA ball, anyone who thinks Escobar is going to be hitting .270 in the Majors is cray cray
I get what you are saying but there is no way to know that for sure. Some guys have actually done better in the majors than in the minors. Some guys do worse. I don't really know what to expect out of the kid but even if he hit .245, stole some bases, scored some runs, played solid D, and didn't give away ABs, it would be more production than we've gotten so far out of Beckham. Lillibridge is another bench player who has never really gotten an "every day" chance in the big leagues. It is unknown what kind of production he is capable of over the long haul. The ideal situation is that Beckham starts to hit like he did circa 2009 and all of this becomes a moot discussion.

doublem23
05-03-2012, 04:44 PM
Before anyone asks...


TEAM HR SOLO PCT
CHW 26 20 76.92
SEA 25 19 76.00
TBR 31 21 67.74
LAA 21 14 66.67
NYY 38 25 65.79
TOR 32 21 65.63
TEX 37 23 62.16
AL 15.0 10.2 68.095
KCR 20 11 55.00
DET 24 13 54.17
OAK 20 10 50.00
CLE 19 9 47.37
MIN 14 6 42.86
BOS 29 12 41.38
BAL 34 11 32.53

Chez
05-03-2012, 04:49 PM
Before anyone asks...


TEAM HR SOLO PCT
CHW 26 20 76.92
SEA 25 19 76.00
TBR 31 21 67.74
LAA 21 14 66.67
NYY 38 25 65.79
TOR 32 21 65.63
TEX 37 23 62.16
AL 15.0 10.2 68.095
KCR 20 11 55.00
DET 24 13 54.17
OAK 20 10 50.00
CLE 19 9 47.37
MIN 14 6 42.86
BOS 29 12 41.38
BAL 34 11 32.53

We've finally found an offensive category in which we lead the league!

doublem23
05-03-2012, 04:55 PM
We've finally found an offensive category in which we lead the league!

http://x2a.xanga.com/f4915bf133432276270747/z205099164.gif

asindc
05-03-2012, 04:56 PM
Before anyone asks...


TEAM HR SOLO PCT
CHW 26 20 76.92
SEA 25 19 76.00
TBR 31 21 67.74
LAA 21 14 66.67
NYY 38 25 65.79
TOR 32 21 65.63
TEX 37 23 62.16
AL 15.0 10.2 68.095
KCR 20 11 55.00
DET 24 13 54.17
OAK 20 10 50.00
CLE 19 9 47.37
MIN 14 6 42.86
BOS 29 12 41.38
BAL 34 11 32.53

Really helps explain our offensive troubles... and Baltimore's early success. 67% of their HRs come with someone on. Mercy!

DickAllen72
05-03-2012, 05:47 PM
Gordon doesn't get the glove or his ass down on a ground ball that should have ended the inning and costs us three runs. But hey at least he's hitting .185 to justify being on the team!

And since Hawk says the ball was "hit hard" that should buy him another 5 weeks with the big league club.
I'm beginning to loathe Gordon Beckham.