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View Full Version : *Official* That's Oakland For Ya Postgame Thread


thomas35forever
04-25-2012, 06:37 PM
Bad taste heading back to Chicago.

Frater Perdurabo
04-25-2012, 06:37 PM
Ugh

doublem23
04-25-2012, 06:37 PM
Time to use Reed as closer

SBSoxFan
04-25-2012, 06:37 PM
Time for a new closer?

Hartman
04-25-2012, 06:38 PM
Deserved to lose.

JB98
04-25-2012, 06:38 PM
The Sox need a new closer. Santiago gives up too many home runs to be in that role.

Crestani
04-25-2012, 06:38 PM
Jessie Crain...PLEASE...!!!

guillensdisciple
04-25-2012, 06:38 PM
4-2 road trip. Not bad at all. We deserved to lose this game, and for the second time this season we grasped defeat from the hands of victory. Can't do anything about that.

Santiago is not a closer. Addison Reed is a better choice.

Frater Perdurabo
04-25-2012, 06:38 PM
Is the screwball not screwing?

LongLiveFisk
04-25-2012, 06:38 PM
I know the Sox have played better there in recent years but I still hate that hellhole.

Come on back home and right the ship again, boys!

amsteel
04-25-2012, 06:38 PM
I think we might have issues at the back end of the bullpen.

LITTLE NELL
04-25-2012, 06:38 PM
Thats going to be one long flight back to Chicago.
Is it time for Addison Reed as closer?

WhiteSoxOnly
04-25-2012, 06:38 PM
All of the above.

chisox12
04-25-2012, 06:38 PM
Time for a new closer?

Definitely. That's what? 4 HRs given up by Santiago already? ****ing terrible.

Hartman
04-25-2012, 06:39 PM
Hawk Harrellson suicide watch.

LoveYourSuit
04-25-2012, 06:39 PM
Bad taste heading back to Chicago.

And a team hurting to sell tickets.

Santiago needs to be removed from closer duties.

ElevenUp
04-25-2012, 06:39 PM
Deserved to lose that game. The Santiago as closer experiment needs to end right now.

Crooked Number
04-25-2012, 06:39 PM
Where do you start with this one?

My fav was Lilli getting picked off on second.

How many forehead slapping moments in this game. At least a half dozen.

Hartman
04-25-2012, 06:39 PM
Reed has the intensity to be a closer.

Soxman219
04-25-2012, 06:39 PM
Saw the score 4-2 and was happy, ten minutes later, they lost. Unreal.

GoGoCrede
04-25-2012, 06:39 PM
That was just plain obnoxious. Although I'm sure CSN is grateful it's over because of the Bulls game.

Zakath
04-25-2012, 06:39 PM
I feel like I need a shower after that one.

Just some ugly pitches by Santiago to end it, which ruined a pretty good performance by the bullpen prior to that (5 IP, 1 H, 1 BB, 5 K).

doublem23
04-25-2012, 06:40 PM
Is the screwball not screwing?

He gave an interview this weekend in which he did admit he has trouble gripping the screwball with MLB balls

Moses_Scurry
04-25-2012, 06:40 PM
:angry::angry:

Had to follow this one on gameday off and on while taking care of the kids and dinner. Figured it was wrapped up after the Sox took the lead in the top of the inning.

I'm ready for Reed to be tried at closer. I don't mind that they went with Santiago, but there is no way he has earned the right to keep the job, even if it's early. Give the role to Reed for awhile. If he stumbles, try Santiago again or someone else.

JB98
04-25-2012, 06:40 PM
Is the screwball not screwing?

It was hanging right over the center of the plate for both Reddick and Cespedes. I can tell you that much.

chisox12
04-25-2012, 06:40 PM
4-2 road trip. Not bad at all. We deserved to lose this game, and for the second time this season we grasped defeat from the hands of victory. Can't do anything about that.

Santiago is not a closer. Addison Reed is a better choice.



Deserved to lose the game...yes. But to be up 4-2 with a chance to close it out and blow it like that is ****ing awful. 4-2 isn't bad for the road trip, but 5-1 would have been a lot better.

Completely agree...Santiago is not a closer. Give Reed a shot.

KMcMahon817
04-25-2012, 06:40 PM
Well, that was a game we should have lost long before the 16th inning. Bummer, but not the end of the world. 4-2 west coast road trip is nothing to be ashamed of, but 5-1 sure would have looked nice. I am pretty sure if someone told you the SOX would 10-8 after 18 games and at worst 1 GB of 1st, you'd take it.

I like the Santiago story and all, and the guy is definitely a ML pitcher, but I think it pretty obvious at this point that just about anyone in the pen besides Ohman is a better option at closer right now. I think it's time Robin changes course. He has already given up 4 HR. Far too many for a closer with very limited IP.

Now let's kick some Red Sox behind.

GoGoCrede
04-25-2012, 06:40 PM
Where do you start with this one?

My fav was Lilli getting picked off on second.

How many forehead slapping moments in this game. At least a half dozen.

Too many to list. Enough for at least three games.

JB98
04-25-2012, 06:41 PM
Jessie Crain...PLEASE...!!!

He's injured. Day-to-day with an oblique strain.

thomas35forever
04-25-2012, 06:41 PM
Definitely. That's what? 4 HRs given up by Santiago already? ****ing terrible.
And the third-highest ERA on the team in this young season. New closer might definitely be worth considering.

RockJock07
04-25-2012, 06:41 PM
Last night was just getting shut down by a hot pitcher today was mental mistake after mental mistake.

Morel, anyone at 2nd, and LF are all blackholes in this lineup. Pitching can only take the Sox so far, they need to get timely hits.

Woofer
04-25-2012, 06:41 PM
The offense tried like hell to lose the game, they finally get a 2 run lead for the 14th, and Santiago blows the game in mere moments. Ouch.

LITTLE NELL
04-25-2012, 06:42 PM
He gave an interview this weekend in which he did admit he has trouble gripping the screwball with MLB balls

As compared to what other ball. Do they use a different ball in the minors?

PalehosePlanet
04-25-2012, 06:42 PM
I was pleasantly surprised that we didn't lose the game in the bottom of the 13th after the fiasco in the top of the 13th. On second thought, I think I would have preferred that to this ending.

The A's only threatened in 2 innings and scored in each. We threatened in 6 different innings and...well you know the rest.

SCCWS
04-25-2012, 06:42 PM
He gave an interview this weekend in which he did admit he has trouble gripping the screwball with MLB balls


even though he was screwed by his screwball, his fastball was only 92-93. That is not a closer.

Crooked Number
04-25-2012, 06:42 PM
Too many to list. Enough for at least three games.


That play stuck out in my mind as "Oakland-esque". Didn't Pods get picked off at third out there in '06?

WSox8404
04-25-2012, 06:43 PM
Thank God we don't have to go back to Oakland again. Got it out of the way early.

WhiteSox5187
04-25-2012, 06:43 PM
We absolutely deserved to lose that one. I think it is time to end the Santiago as a closer experiment.

RockJock07
04-25-2012, 06:43 PM
Also, closer is also going to be a work in progress all season, I'm mad they lost but closer was never going to be solid position on this team.

I'm more mad at how many .220 hitters they have.

October26
04-25-2012, 06:44 PM
Got home from work just in time to watch this heartbreaking loss.

Zakath
04-25-2012, 06:44 PM
The offense tried like hell to lose the game, they finally get a 2 run lead for the 14th, and Santiago blows the game in mere moments. Ouch.

Ruined a pretty good performance by the bullpen prior to that (5 IP, 1 H, 1 BB, 5 K).

We tried every way we could to hand them the game and finally just had to hang some pitches to them to get them to take it.

doublem23
04-25-2012, 06:44 PM
As compared to what other ball. Do they use a different ball in the minors?

I'm sure they change the ball out more often in the Majors; probably a new ball is a little tough to get the right spin

kevingrt
04-25-2012, 06:44 PM
At least we are done visiting Oakland in 2012.

asindc
04-25-2012, 06:44 PM
Threads need to be merged. Robin needs a new closer. Morel needs AAA seasoning.

ChiSoxGal85
04-25-2012, 06:45 PM
Where do you start with this one?

My fav was Lilli getting picked off on second.

How many forehead slapping moments in this game. At least a half dozen.

That was just plain obnoxious. Although I'm sure CSN is grateful it's over because of the Bulls game.

The offense tried like hell to lose the game, they finally get a 2 run lead for the 14th, and Santiago blows the game in mere moments. Ouch.
Nothing to add here. Really a frustrating game to watch. Multiple opportunities to win which were squandered in various, interesting ways.

Parrothead
04-25-2012, 06:46 PM
Welcome to White Sox baseball...where good base running does not exist. Dumb.

kevingrt
04-25-2012, 06:46 PM
Threads need to be merged. Robin needs a new closer. Morel needs AAA seasoning.

Beckham can join the latter group there.

Boondock Saint
04-25-2012, 06:46 PM
Time to use Reed as closer

I assumed that he was going to have that spot coming into the season.

doublem23
04-25-2012, 06:46 PM
Deserved to lose the game...yes. But to be up 4-2 with a chance to close it out and blow it like that is ****ing awful. 4-2 isn't bad for the road trip, but 5-1 would have been a lot better.

Completely agree...Santiago is not a closer. Give Reed a shot.

Eh in the end 4-2 or 5-1 isn't a big deal... Let's just go home and beat the **** out of Boston

TommyGavinFloyd
04-25-2012, 06:46 PM
I'm not sure Santiago is even cut out to stay on the roster much longer, let alone close. The switch SHOULD be made now but let's see if Robin will.

Zakath
04-25-2012, 06:47 PM
Reed or Jones at closer. Santiago leaves one out there for the only guy on their team who could reach the stands.

4-5-6 in our lineup were 8-16. Too bad we wasted it.

kevingrt
04-25-2012, 06:48 PM
Welcome to White Sox baseball...where good base running does not exist. Dumb.

I don't mind sending Beckham home but the Lillibridge pickoff at 2B was freaking awful. Couple that with the horrendous bunting today and we more then deserved to lose. Too bad the bullpen sans Santiago and Sale were straight ridiculous.

doublem23
04-25-2012, 06:49 PM
Welcome to White Sox baseball...where good base running does not exist. Dumb.

Only bad baserunning play was Lillibridge getting picked off 2nd; Fukudome got hung out to dry by Morel and Beckham getting tossed at the plate after scoring 2 runs in 12 innings isn't a big deal.

GoGoCrede
04-25-2012, 06:50 PM
Let's hope they got that all out of their systems and learn from it, yes? Whatever, tomorrow's a new day. Clearly I've calmed down from the game thread where I admitted to yelling out "I hate my life" during a particularly ****ty moment.

DickAllen72
04-25-2012, 06:52 PM
Time for a new closer?
Yes.

And time to bunt less.

amsteel
04-25-2012, 06:52 PM
Another game where the Sox fail to score 5 runs and everything (except the closer) was 'good enough' to win. Actually Sale was really good.

I think we all expect to lose games like this particularly in OAK. So get over it, get a good night sleep and don't let Boston get out of their slump.

Zakath
04-25-2012, 06:52 PM
Let's hope they got that all out of their systems and learn from it, yes?

We keep thinking that, and for a while they do, and then one of these happens again.

I'm sure every team has this happen to them, but the Sox just seem to do this more frequently.

Zakath
04-25-2012, 06:54 PM
I think we all expect to lose games like this particularly in OAK. So get over it, get a good night sleep and don't let Boston get out of their slump.

Boston's coming out of it a little, courtesy of a rainout and Minnesota...

Wedema
04-25-2012, 06:54 PM
I agree, Santiago is not a closer. But who do we go to? Crain is injured and Thornton struggled last year in the role and gave up the game winner last night. KW did not think this out during the off season after trading Santos.

LoveYourSuit
04-25-2012, 06:54 PM
I'm not sure Santiago is even cut out to stay on the roster much longer, let alone close. The switch SHOULD be made now but let's see if Robin will.

He can't get offspeed outs. That's a problem.

FloridaSox
04-25-2012, 06:56 PM
And so the Hector Santiago era comes to an end, I hope.

amsteel
04-25-2012, 06:56 PM
Also, Reed should be the closer starting now, but as we know with the Sox it typically takes a full on blizzard of **** in order to make a big change.

I think it's gonna take a couple more Ls to get Hector outta the closer spot. If not, kudos to Robin.

doublem23
04-25-2012, 06:56 PM
I agree, Santiago is not a closer. But who do we go to? Crain is injured and Thornton struggled last year in the role and gave up the game winner last night. KW did not think this out during the off season after trading Santos.

The Santos who has been awful for Toronto and now injured?

Reed can close, hell I'd be willing to give Thornton another chance at it, couple of guys who had down years last year seem to be playing well now.

asindc
04-25-2012, 06:59 PM
I don't mind the learning as they go approach with some of our younger players, but Santiago seems clearly overmatched for the closer's role. Ah well, 4-2 West Coast trip. Not bad. Big welcome home game tomorrow. Let's get 'em.:cool:

DonnieDarko
04-25-2012, 07:00 PM
I am not liking Hector Santiago as the closer. :|

asindc
04-25-2012, 07:01 PM
I agree, Santiago is not a closer. But who do we go to? Crain is injured and Thornton struggled last year in the role and gave up the game winner last night. KW did not think this out during the off season after trading Santos.

Not true. At all.

Wedema
04-25-2012, 07:03 PM
As compared to what other ball. Do they use a different ball in the minors?


According to Santiago, the seams are different on a MLB ball compared to a minor league ball.

oldgrouch
04-25-2012, 07:06 PM
Why did we get rid of Santos and why did we not sign Cespedes? Another
KW screw up?:scratch::scratch:

DrCrawdad
04-25-2012, 07:08 PM
This game had that unmistakable aroma of a White Sox loss from early on - so many runners left in scoring position, bad base running.

Crestani
04-25-2012, 07:09 PM
Why did we get rid of Santos and why did we not sign Cespedes? Another
KW screw up?:scratch::scratch:


Santos has an ERA over 9.00 and there was no money for Cespedes...!!!

Wedema
04-25-2012, 07:09 PM
The Santos who has been awful for Toronto and now injured?

Reed can close, hell I'd be willing to give Thornton another chance at it, couple of guys who had down years last year seem to be playing well now.


I did not say that I wished Santos was still the closer. Just that KW did not plan for the closer role after the trade. Robin didn't even know who was the closer going into opening day!

doublem23
04-25-2012, 07:14 PM
I did not say that I wished Santos was still the closer. Just that KW did not plan for the closer role after the trade. Robin didn't even know who was the closer going into opening day!

Going into this season, Addison Reed was probably the #1 relief pitching prospect in baseball so I think the long-term plan for the closer role has been in place for a while.

kevingrt
04-25-2012, 07:16 PM
I agree, Santiago is not a closer. But who do we go to? Crain is injured and Thornton struggled last year in the role and gave up the game winner last night. KW did not think this out during the off season after trading Santos.

Besides having one of the top rated relief prospects in baseball (Addison Reed) we have to remember that closer is one of the least important "positions" on the team when rebuilding.

Also I agree with a lot of the sabermetrics guys that talk about eliminating the closer. Put your best guy out their in the highest leverage situations and go from there. The save stat has corrupted managers' thinkings of how to manage a bullpen. And it is very annoying.

kevingrt
04-25-2012, 07:19 PM
I guess in post game press conference Robin said he is sticking with Hector as the White Sox closer for the time being.

FielderJones
04-25-2012, 07:28 PM
I guess in post game press conference Robin said he is sticking with Hector as the White Sox closer for the time being.

That's a bad idea for this home series. If he blows a couple in front of the home crowd they will be merciless, and that can screw up a young player's confidence.

I'd love to see Nate Jones get a shot at closing. That funky motion has to irritate batters, and that fastball gets up to you in a hurry.

SCCWS
04-25-2012, 07:31 PM
I think we all expect to lose games like this particularly in OAK. So get over it, get a good night sleep and don't let Boston get out of their slump.

Minnesota already cured what was troubling Boston. Let's hope they don't arrive after a sweep of the Twins. Luckily they have a closer issue also.

doublem23
04-25-2012, 07:32 PM
Minnesota already cured what was troubling Boston. Let's hope they don't arrive after a sweep of the Twins. Luckily they have a closer issue also.

The Twins also just flat out suck

We all thought sweeping Seattle would help carry this team on a nice little streak and we end up dropping 2 of 3 to the bag of **** A's.

:dunno:

Wedema
04-25-2012, 07:38 PM
Going into this season, Addison Reed was probably the #1 relief pitching prospect in baseball so I think the long-term plan for the closer role has been in place for a while.

If Reed is the long term plan, then why give it to another rookie with no closing experience? I could see if you wanted to ease Reed into the role by having Crain or Thornton close, but not by going to another rookie. Reed had also been pitching in the late innings in AA while Santiago was starting there. Bottom line, it was poorly thought out by management whether the team is "rebuilding" or not.

JB98
04-25-2012, 07:39 PM
No PTC thread yet, but if anybody wants to read about this poop, here's my TBGR (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=4&id=4239).

I had gum surgery earlier today, then I had to watch this terrible game. Thanks for cheering me up, Sox.

I think I actually enjoyed the surgery more than watching our hitters today.

GoGoCrede
04-25-2012, 07:40 PM
No PTC thread yet, but if anybody wants to read about this poop, here's my TBGR (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=4&id=4239).

I had gum surgery earlier today, then I had to watch this terrible game. Thanks for cheering me up, Sox.

I think I actually enjoyed the surgery more than watching our hitters today.



Well, at least the surgery contributed to your overall health. The game did no such thing.

JB98
04-25-2012, 07:41 PM
Well, at least the surgery contributed to your overall health. The game did no such thing.

Good point. :cheers:

Boondock Saint
04-25-2012, 07:44 PM
No PTC thread yet, but if anybody wants to read about this poop, here's my TBGR (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=4&id=4239).

I had gum surgery earlier today, then I had to watch this terrible game. Thanks for cheering me up, Sox.

I think I actually enjoyed the surgery more than watching our hitters today.


The surgery came with drugs to help mitigate things a bit.

tstrike2000
04-25-2012, 07:50 PM
Amazing the Sox were in this game with all the mistakes. I thought the Morel/Fukudome and Lillibridge blunders were going to be the death knell for the Sox. Unfortunately, Santiago has blown two saves in two weeks and in both he's allowed absolute rockets to tie the game. It may be time to try Reed or Jones in a closing situation.

Zakath
04-25-2012, 07:51 PM
Well, at least the surgery contributed to your overall health. The game did no such thing.

If he's like the rest of us, he burned a fair number of calories during the game.

tstrike2000
04-25-2012, 07:53 PM
No PTC thread yet, but if anybody wants to read about this poop, here's my TBGR (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=4&id=4239).

I had gum surgery earlier today, then I had to watch this terrible game. Thanks for cheering me up, Sox.

I think I actually enjoyed the surgery more than watching our hitters today.


Hope everything went alright with the surgery and that the healing goes well. I understand how you feel. I came home early from work because of a cold and went to bed. It would've been best to stay asleep instead watching the extra innings.

Carneyman14
04-25-2012, 08:01 PM
Same **** different year. I have more confidence in Robin than Ozzie though. (I think) (I hope) :whiner:

WhiteSox5187
04-25-2012, 08:18 PM
The Santos who has been awful for Toronto and now injured?

Reed can close, hell I'd be willing to give Thornton another chance at it, couple of guys who had down years last year seem to be playing well now.

I'd rather see Reed close than Thornton (unless the theory is to ease Reed in to the role) as Reed is younger and give us a better idea of what we might get in the future.

Golden Sox
04-25-2012, 08:20 PM
I would like to think there will be a change in the closers role on this homestand. In the 2000 season the White Sox resurrected Herbert Perry who helped us get to the playoffs. Dallas McPherson is doing a decent job in the minor leagues. (batting=283. OBP=362) Isn't it time to bring him up and give him a chance at 3rd base?

kevingrt
04-25-2012, 08:22 PM
Same **** different year. I have more confidence in Robin than Ozzie though. (I think) (I hope) :whiner:

One game and I don't even really think you can blame it on poor managing. Only thing I didn't like that Robin repeatedly did was bunt.

TDog
04-25-2012, 08:37 PM
Deserved to lose.

Anytime you go into the bottom of the 14th with a two-run lead with your closer coming on, you should win the game. If you're talking about just deserts, the A's deserved to lose this game as much as the White Sox did, although the A's announcers were talking about how Lillibridge deserved to be picked off because Dunn's double was lukcy and the baseball gods were evening things out.

In defense of Lillibridge, it's been a year and a couple of weeks since he was picked off second base as a pinch-runner in an extra-inning tie game. But with everything that went wrong, the pickoff at second, the missed suicide squeeze, the great relay on a weak throw to the cutoff man to cut down a run at the plate, the pitch in the second that Suzuki failed to block on which he threw out Konerko trying to take second, the hit-batsmen that turned into a strikeout even though the A's annoucners said they didn't believe he swung at the pitch (they didn't offer an opinion on whether the fluke double made up for that), the White Sox still should have won this game.

I wonder if Santiago was tipping his pitches. He wasn't getting burned on fastballs. He was getting hit on his off-speed pitches that hitters seemed to be ready for. Whatever, has been as bad as Santos was last August and Thornton was last April. I don't know if his occasional problem is something he can overcome.

This game wasn't so different from a 1972 Sox-A's game. It also wasn't totally different from a game the White Sox might have played last year. I really don't have any problem with any of Ventura's calls, and I expected Morel to squeeze. Really, they were hitting Parker well enough in the second to score several runs. It should have been the White Sox going into the ninth a lead instead of the A's. Fans don't like it when managers call for the bunt, but no matter who is managing, you are going to see most of the bunts there. The Rangers beat the Tigers on a bunt this weekend. The problem for the White Sox today was that the players didn't execute.

GoGoCrede
04-25-2012, 08:40 PM
If he's like the rest of us, he burned a fair number of calories during the game.

Well, my vocal chords certainly got a workout.

SI1020
04-25-2012, 08:42 PM
Besides having one of the top rated relief prospects in baseball (Addison Reed) we have to remember that closer is one of the least important "positions" on the team when rebuilding.

Also I agree with a lot of the sabermetrics guys that talk about eliminating the closer. Put your best guy out their in the highest leverage situations and go from there. The save stat has corrupted managers' thinkings of how to manage a bullpen. And it is very annoying. I agree with both you and the saber crowd on this. The LaRussaization of bullpens with strict limited roles puts managers in a straight jacket. In the AL with the DH it further limits potential moves in the late innings. This is the way things are done and I think now even the pitchers expect to be given an assigned role. It will be difficult to change this line of thinking.

sachin
04-25-2012, 08:47 PM
Please demote Brent Morel ASAP. This guy is nothing but a liability whose ineptitude cost the Sox AT LEAST 2 games.

voodoochile
04-25-2012, 08:51 PM
Well after sitting through all 14 innings at the Coliseum, I can only say, "Ouch, I should have worn sunscreen.."

Kind of an awkward game. So many mistakes that led to so many runs being scored or not being scored. Thought PK was safe in the second on the ball that got by Suzuki but he's slow and the ball beat him to the bag and I didn't see a replay. That cost the Sox a run. Then of course Lilibridge in the 13th or whatever it was didn't help, though it was a real nice play by the A's having the SS break like he was covering third then break back to second immediately leaving Brett hung out to dry. That cost the Sox a run. Then there was the ill-fated suicide squeeze :rolleyes:. But the A's gave the Sox two runs back after the error in the 14th only to see Santiago melt down in the bottom half.

Both cleanup hitters had game tying homers off of the other team's closer in what would have otherwise been their team's final inning of batting.

Not sure Santiago is the answer at closer that's two blown saves already. At least with Reed, Jones, Crain and Thornton there are other possibilities.

Sox really need to work on their baserunning awareness.

My arm is really red...:whiner:

Noneck
04-25-2012, 10:12 PM
Going into this season, Addison Reed was probably the #1 relief pitching prospect in baseball so I think the long-term plan for the closer role has been in place for a while.


I think you are right here but if that is the case why ruin another kids confidence before that time comes. The Sox have 2 veteran relievers that could have kept that spot warm before Reed is ready.

Lip Man 1
04-25-2012, 10:24 PM
Another crushing loss to an absolute garbage "Triple" A's team.

Funny Cleveland had no trouble beating these deadbeats 2 out of 3.

Two blown games already this season...different year, same ****.

Sox should be 12-6.

Time for Robin to rethink the closers job.

Actually I'm shocked they even made it to extra innings, given they looked lost again against a 'no-name' rookie pitcher.

Maybe they can actually win some games at home now.

Lip

Lamp81
04-25-2012, 10:28 PM
He gave an interview this weekend in which he did admit he has trouble gripping the screwball with MLB balls

As compared to what other ball. Do they use a different ball in the minors?

Why would they use a different ball? That is the equivalent of using a metal bat in the minors.

If the purpose of the minor leagues is to prepare major league players, give them the same tools, so they can prepare properly. I think MLB should subsidize the use of wooden bats in NCAA baseball, that way they could a better idea as to who is a MLB prospect.

DrCrawdad
04-25-2012, 10:31 PM
Another crushing loss to an absolute garbage "Triple" A's team.

Funny Cleveland had no trouble beating these deadbeats 2 out of 3.

Two blown games already this season...different year, same ****.

Sox should be 12-6.

Time for Robin to rethink the closers job.

Actually I'm shocked they even made it to extra innings, given they looked lost again against a 'no-name' rookie pitcher.

Lip

True but this game shouldn't have been close. The Sox left 11 runners on base. Had a runner picked off 2nd and a blown squeeze.

Lip Man 1
04-25-2012, 10:37 PM
Lamp:

The balls are basically the same in all leagues HOWEVER the seams are usually tighter and lower (smoother) in the big leagues.

Lip

Viva Medias B's
04-25-2012, 10:38 PM
I hope Robin doesn't order Coop to have a Code Red performed on young Santiago.

slavko
04-25-2012, 10:42 PM
I did not say that I wished Santos was still the closer. Just that KW did not plan for the closer role after the trade. Robin didn't even know who was the closer going into opening day!

Betcha a lemon cookie he knew but didn't say to the media and us. Psychol...whatever. Need a new one. Need him now. Robin saying he's still the closer. That's psychology too. Reed's probably the guy. I was against Thornton last year, proved right. For some reason, I'm not as fearful now. Matt may get another shot.

Got the team slogan for 2012: "Not As Bad As We Thought."

SI1020
04-25-2012, 10:50 PM
I hope Robin doesn't order Coop to have a Code Red performed on young Santiago. You want me on that wall. You need me on that wall.

asindc
04-25-2012, 10:52 PM
Another crushing loss to an absolute garbage "Triple" A's team.

Funny Cleveland had no trouble beating these deadbeats 2 out of 3.

Two blown games already this season...different year, same ****.

Sox should be 12-6.

Time for Robin to rethink the closers job.

Actually I'm shocked they even made it to extra innings, given they looked lost again against a 'no-name' rookie pitcher.

Maybe they can actually win some games at home now.

Lip

Meanwhile, Detroit lost its second lopsided game in a row at home to Seattle.

soxfanreggie
04-25-2012, 11:06 PM
Throwing this one away made me ill. Really good teams find a way to win these games.

Brian26
04-25-2012, 11:12 PM
Well after sitting through all 14 innings at the Coliseum, I can only say, "Ouch, I should have worn sunscreen.."

Gut-wrenching, crushing losses like this hurt so bad, but you can't say you didn't get your money's worth today... 14 innings, Konerko's #400 in dramatic style, a couple of close plays at the plate, Alexei's 2-run double to take the lead.

Got to get Santiago out of there though.

Lip Man 1
04-25-2012, 11:18 PM
Asin:

When all is said and done, Detroit will still win 90+ games, they can afford to "throw" a few away...the Sox can't can they?

The Sox needed to take advantage against playing the **** of the A.L. instead they go 5-5 against Baltimore, Seattle and Oakland. Only 2-5 if you take away the Seattle games. That's terrible

They aren't going to keep playing garbage forever you understand.

Here's the thing for those who think one or two games don't matter...first off pennants have been won by "one or two" games (think 1964 for example...) and second, win the two games Santiago urinated away and the Sox are looking at 12-6, already six games over three weeks into the season.

Instead they are barely about .500.

That great start against tough teams Texas and Detroit has been wasted on the wind.

One or two games DOES matter, a ton in the long run.

Lip

kittle42
04-25-2012, 11:28 PM
Lip - you'd feel much better if you looked at this team realistically like many of us have chosen to - they're not winning any divisions or championships this year. There. Now enjoy the games.

Dick Allen
04-25-2012, 11:39 PM
I can't believe Robin would be as stubborn as Ozzie and keep trotting Santiago out there to close. Please tell me he isn't.

tstrike2000
04-25-2012, 11:41 PM
I hope Robin doesn't order Coop to have a Code Red performed on young Santiago.

I don't think Santiago could handle the truth.

JB98
04-25-2012, 11:41 PM
Lip - you'd feel much better if you looked at this team realistically like many of us have chosen to - they're not winning any divisions or championships this year. There. Now enjoy the games.

That mentality really does help, doesn't it?

Just enjoy each baseball game for what it is. The Sox are not that good. It is folly to expect them to dominate "garbage" teams.

Noneck
04-25-2012, 11:58 PM
The Sox are not that good. It is folly to expect them to dominate "garbage" teams.

Yes because they actually are closer to being a garbage team as to being a contending team.

SoxSpeed22
04-26-2012, 12:10 AM
I'm displeased with the execution in this series. That pitch Cespedes hit out didn't seem like a bad pitch. What is this I hear about Hector having problems gripping his screwball?

TDog
04-26-2012, 12:38 AM
Another crushing loss to an absolute garbage "Triple" A's team.

Funny Cleveland had no trouble beating these deadbeats 2 out of 3.

Two blown games already this season...different year, same ****.

Sox should be 12-6. ...

This is a ridiculous assessment.

The White Sox faced three entirely different starting pitchers. The Indians beat McCarthy and Godfrey, both of whom are winless and neither of whom pitched against the Sox. Before that, the A's beat the Angels three straight in Anaheim.

Godfrey's turn in the rotation was due to come up again today, but he was optioned to Sacramento. Godfrey faced the White Sox last year in his major league debut. He was knocked out in the fifth and left with an ERA over 10.

RCWHITESOX
04-26-2012, 01:16 AM
I still believe this team is better than most here believe. I say give Ventura time with this team and reassess where they stand in in June. So what that Santiago blew two saves its part of the game. ST Louis just blew two games to the Cubs and the Dodgers just blew two saves in two games to the Braves just to name a few. I see Dunn, Rios, and Peavy all having turn around seasons. The biggest questions are 3B, 2B and the bullpen. When the Sox won it all in 2005 no one had them picked as a favorite so enough with all this rebuilding stuff. If the Sox fall out of the race this summer then they will have some interesting chips to move. Lets just see how things go that's why they play the games on the field instead of on paper.

LITTLE NELL
04-26-2012, 05:28 AM
Even though yesterday's loss was tough everyone needs to calm down. I usually look at the schedule and predict what our record should be.
Right now we are 10-8 , right where I thought we would be. I also think we will win 84 games. If Peavy, Dunn and Rios continue to perform like they have then we might be looking at 90 wins. If Beckham and Morel ever get their heads out of their asses we could win the division.
Here is how I came up with 10-8:
at Texas 1-2
at Clv 1-1 (Before the rainout I thought 2-1)
Det 2-1
Balt 3-1
at Sea 2-1
at Oak 1-2
_______
10-8

Prediction for upcoming homestand:
vs Bost 2-2
vs Clv 2-1

DirtySox
04-26-2012, 06:01 AM
Since when is Jarrod Parker a "garbage no-name pitcher?" I wish people would give this a rest or at least do some research before proclaiming someone they have never heard of as bad.

doublem23
04-26-2012, 06:05 AM
Since when is Jarrod Parker a "garbage no-name pitcher?" I wish people would give this a rest or at least do some research before proclaiming someone they have never heard of as bad.

I really wouldn't worry about it, it's just one guy repeating the same old crap over and over again like a broken record. He seems to think his ignorance is some kind of badge of honor, like we're all awestruck by someone who is too lazy to use the internet to do the requisite 30 seconds of research.

DirtySox
04-26-2012, 06:09 AM
I really wouldn't worry about it, it's just one guy repeating the same old crap over and over again like a broken record. He seems to think his ignorance is some kind of badge of honor, like we're all awestruck by someone who is too lazy to use the internet to do the requisite 30 seconds of research.

I see. I will assume the same comments were made about Tom Milone as well.

asindc
04-26-2012, 06:26 AM
I see. I will assume the same comments were made about Tom Milone as well.

Sadly, they were.

asindc
04-26-2012, 06:39 AM
Asin:

When all is said and done, Detroit will still win 90+ games, they can afford to "throw" a few away...the Sox can't can they?

The Sox needed to take advantage against playing the **** of the A.L. instead they go 5-5 against Baltimore, Seattle and Oakland. Only 2-5 if you take away the Seattle games. That's terrible

They aren't going to keep playing garbage forever you understand.

Here's the thing for those who think one or two games don't matter...first off pennants have been won by "one or two" games (think 1964 for example...) and second, win the two games Santiago urinated away and the Sox are looking at 12-6, already six games over three weeks into the season.

Instead they are barely about .500.

That great start against tough teams Texas and Detroit has been wasted on the wind.

One or two games DOES matter, a ton in the long run.

Lip

I'm guessing Detroit did not approach those games thinking that they could afford to lose them, anymore than LAAAAAA approached it's games with Oakland so far as games they could afford to lose. They all matter to every team. And yet...

wassagstdu
04-26-2012, 06:45 AM
... Fans don't like it when managers call for the bunt, but no matter who is managing, you are going to see most of the bunts there. The Rangers beat the Tigers on a bunt this weekend. The problem for the White Sox today was that the players didn't execute.

Once upon a time, the bunt was a routine play and made sense. The Sox CAN NOT BUNT consistently. It makes no sense to keep asking them to do it, especially in critical situations. On the other hand, so many fundamental skills are lacking that it would be impossible not to ask the Sox to do anything that they cannot do. (Now there's a sentence.)

kufram
04-26-2012, 06:58 AM
This year's team has had it's share of fundamental mistakes like all teams do, but up until 12 hours ago most everyone noticed how much better it has been on the fundamentals.

Clearly, they had a very bad day at the office yesterday but still were in a position to win and, in fact, would have won that game but for the closer getting rocked at the last.

Keep your head when all around you are losing theirs is appropriate. Hopefully the team got several games worth of poor execution out of the way in one fell swoop. I'll take the 4-2 road trip and not panic or go all hyperbolic just yet.

Everybody else in the Central but KC lost too so the immediate damage is mitigated. If we lose the division by 1 game then you can choose to look at this game as the reason why it was lost but no matter what there will be 60-70 other losses that each carry exactly the same weight in the end.

russ99
04-26-2012, 07:11 AM
I agree, Santiago is not a closer. But who do we go to? Crain is injured and Thornton struggled last year in the role and gave up the game winner last night. KW did not think this out during the off season after trading Santos.

Mike Gonzalez is still on the market...

SI1020
04-26-2012, 07:32 AM
Right now we are 10-8 , right where I thought we would be. I also think we will win 84 games. I will be overjoyed if this team wins 84 games.

doublem23
04-26-2012, 07:53 AM
FWIW, 10-8 extrapolates to 90 wins over 162 games. Let's hold off on the torch wielding.

October26
04-26-2012, 08:19 AM
This year's team has had it's share of fundamental mistakes like all teams do, but up until 12 hours ago most everyone noticed how much better it has been on the fundamentals.

Clearly, they had a very bad day at the office yesterday but still were in a position to win and, in fact, would have won that game but for the closer getting rocked at the last.

Keep your head when all around you are losing theirs is appropriate. Hopefully the team got several games worth of poor execution out of the way in one fell swoop. I'll take the 4-2 road trip and not panic or go all hyperbolic just yet.

Everybody else in the Central but KC lost too so the immediate damage is mitigated. If we lose the division by 1 game then you can choose to look at this game as the reason why it was lost but no matter what there will be 60-70 other losses that each carry exactly the same weight in the end.

A voice of calm & reason in the middle of the firestorm - thank you.

SI1020
04-26-2012, 08:23 AM
FWIW, 10-8 extrapolates to 90 wins over 162 games. Let's hold off on the torch wielding. Overjoyed at 84? If they win 90 I'll buy a couple rounds.

BainesHOF
04-26-2012, 09:03 AM
The radio postgame show was an example of silliness with Ranger getting all upset with callers who expressed a legitimate view of wanting Santiago removed from the closing role. The game was bad enough, but the show was the capper. Thankfully, Holmes called out Ranger for his nonsense immediately after the postgame show.

I loved what I saw from Santiago in his limited appearances last season. That screwball was impressive. Unfortunately, he's basically throwing batting practice this season. He can't be allowed to continue to blow games if this team has any hopes of contending. He's not not blowing saves. He's getting KILLED.

kittle42
04-26-2012, 09:23 AM
I still believe this team is better than most here believe. I say give Ventura time with this team and re asses where they stand in in June. So what that Santiago blew two saves its part of the game. ST Louis just blew two games to the Cubs and the Dodgers just blew two saves in two games to the Braves just to name a few. I see Dunn, Rios, and Peavy all having turn around seasons. The biggest questions are 3B, 2B and the bullpen. When the Sox won it all in 2005 no one had them picked as a favorite so enough with all this rebuilding stuff. If the Sox fall out of the race this summer then they will have some interesting chips to move. Lets just see how things go that's why they play the games on the field instead of on paper.

Lots of flawed logic here. But if it makes people feel better to think this team can contend, go for it!

kufram
04-26-2012, 09:33 AM
I don't listen to post-game shows or care very much what Ranger says to post-game callers. Everybody is entitled to their view. Everybody is entitled to react in their own way to events. A new manager is entitled to 10 minutes to figure a few things out.

Not being a big fan of the "closer" non-position unless you have an Eckersley or Mariano in their prime, my view is that they are very rare and to think that all teams need to have a legitimate "closer" is just inventing a position. I wish we had one but I don't think we do and Santiago has blown (count 'em) TWO saves. It is early and they do not bode well but no manager can make decisions based on short term thinking. A guy holds a team the last inning of a close game a couple of times and he's The Closer.... he blows a couple and he should disappear... it ain't that simple... but now managers HAVE to have named "closers" or the questions never stop about WHO is the closer!

hawkjt
04-26-2012, 09:34 AM
In the postgame, Robin tried to obscure it,but it became obvious on the squeeze bunt,that Fukie thought it was a suicide and Morel thought it was a safety squeeze....missed signs again..I suspect on Morel's part,altho I would have expected a safety squeeze is the more likely call..who knows?
But with McEwing right there, wouldn't Fukie be more likely to have the right call?

Bottom line, put this missed signals along side the missed sign on the pickoff the other day with Dunn/Danks/AJ...we got some communication issues,Robin...fix it!

Santiago mentioned the other day that the threads were more raised in AAA ball,and so it is impacting his screwgie....figure it out,Coop!

The pitch that Cepedes hit for a homer was low and almost out of the strike zone...not an obvious homer pitch...impressive hit by the Cuban.
But it clearly affected Hector the next 3 batters...time to go closer by committee,maybe?

doublem23
04-26-2012, 09:35 AM
Has a team ever gone closer by committee and succeeded?

asindc
04-26-2012, 09:38 AM
Has a team ever gone closer by committee and succeeded?

Yes:


http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/1990.shtml

Jerko
04-26-2012, 09:41 AM
Has a team ever gone closer by committee and succeeded?

The Reds maybe with Myers/Charlton/Dibble. Myers got the bulk of them but all 3 recorded saves.

I see asindc beat me to the punch.

kittle42
04-26-2012, 09:46 AM
The Reds maybe with Myers/Charlton/Dibble. Myers got the bulk of them but all 3 recorded saves.

I see asindc beat me to the punch.

Once in 25 or so years isn't a ringing endorsement, since at least one team tries it at some point every season.

wilburaga
04-26-2012, 09:51 AM
Jessie Crain...PLEASE...!!!

I can't stand the bunt with a man on second, nobody out, a good hitter up, and Adam Dunn on deck. I just don't think it's a good percentage move.

asindc
04-26-2012, 10:05 AM
Once in 25 or so years isn't a ringing endorsement, since at least one team tries it at some point every season.

This is one instance where I think the sabermetricians have it right. If a guy is good enough to get three outs in the 7th or 8th inning, then he should be good enough to get three outs in the 9th. I want Santiago assigned to a different role not because I don't think he can close, but because he is not pitching well at all. Jones, Reed, and Crain have all pitched well enough to get last three outs of the game. I see no reason why we can't rotate those guys in and out of the 9th inning depending on the circumstances.

hawkjt
04-26-2012, 10:35 AM
I am not a huge fan of lefty closers,unless you are Billy Wagner and throw over 101 mph. Fuentes has that dip down funky style that works ok,but really,how many lefty closers have had long runs? Too many strong righthanded hitters like Cepedes that threaten to change the game with one swing for my taste.

SaltyPretzel
04-26-2012, 10:41 AM
Thank God we don't have to go back to Oakland again. Got it out of the way early.

:bandance: Thank God. We don't have to listen to that ****ing Vuvuzela in the background for another year.

Tragg
04-26-2012, 10:54 AM
I tend to favor an official "closer" but I'm not adamant about it. I certainly don't think it's necessary, or even wise, to put your best relief pitcher as closer, however. You need the best guy to save you when runners are actually on base. I might lean to Crain - he seems to handle his inning reasonably well.
I wouldn't close with Reed. I think he's our best guy.

And bunting, in general, blows.

TDog
04-26-2012, 11:00 AM
In the postgame, Robin tried to obscure it,but it became obvious on the squeeze bunt,that Fukie thought it was a suicide and Morel thought it was a safety squeeze....missed signs again..I suspect on Morel's part,altho I would have expected a safety squeeze is the more likely call..who knows?
But with McEwing right there, wouldn't Fukie be more likely to have the right call?

Bottom line, put this missed signals along side the missed sign on the pickoff the other day with Dunn/Danks/AJ...we got some communication issues,Robin...fix it!

Santiago mentioned the other day that the threads were more raised in AAA ball,and so it is impacting his screwgie....figure it out,Coop!

The pitch that Cepedes hit for a homer was low and almost out of the strike zone...not an obvious homer pitch...impressive hit by the Cuban.
But it clearly affected Hector the next 3 batters...time to go closer by committee,maybe?

It appeared there was a missed sign on the suicide squeeze. What most teams do with a suicide squeeze is not only have a coach giving the signs but having the players receiving the signs making some sort of discreet indication that the sign has been received. The most fatal missed sign of all is a batter missing the sign on a suicide squeeze, and that was what I initially believed happened on the play, although it's possible Fukudome got it wrong.

Still, if you watch other teams play, the White Sox don't seem to miss more signs than other teams, even teams that don't have new managers and coaching staffs.

Fans don't like bunting, of course. They are upset when sacrifices are successful becuase the team is giving up an out and they are livid when sacrifices are unsuccessful. Tuesday night, there was a play where there could have been a bunt in a scoreless game, but Beckham, not missing the sign, grounded into a double play on a hit-and run where no one missed any signs, and the defense just turned a great play.

I wouldn't complain about a successful sacrifice of a runner from second to third with no one out, though, because the runner is supposed to be giving himself up by hitting to the right side even if he isn't sacrificing. You see a lot more bunting of runners from second to third with no one out than you used to. That seems to be because players don't want playing team baseball to hurt their batting averages.

Of course, the idea that teams don't win if they divide up the closing chores has become a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Few contending teams are closing games by commitee. Even with the Giants who have gone that route this year in Brian Wilson's absense, I'm guessing a closer from AAA will emerge in May or June.

asindc
04-26-2012, 11:07 AM
It appeared there was a missed sign on the suicide squeeze. What most teams do with a suicide squeeze is not only have a coach giving the signs but having the players receiving the signs making some sort of discreet indication that the sign has been received. The most fatal missed sign of all is a batter missing the sign on a suicide squeeze, and that was what I initially believed happened on the play, although it's possible Fukudome got it wrong.

Still, if you watch other teams play, the White Sox don't seem to miss more signs than other teams, even teams that don't have new managers and coaching staffs.

Fans don't like bunting, of course. They are upset when sacrifices are successful becuase the team is giving up an out and they are livid when sacrifices are unsuccessful. Tuesday night, there was a play where there could have been a bunt in a scoreless game, but Beckham, not missing the sign, grounded into a double play on a hit-and run where no one missed any signs, and the defense just turned a great play.

I wouldn't complain about a successful sacrifice of a runner from second to third with no one out, though, because the runner is supposed to be giving himself up by hitting to the right side even if he isn't sacrificing. You see a lot more bunting of runners from second to third with no one out than you used to. That seems to be because players don't want playing team baseball to hurt their batting averages.

Of course, the idea that teams don't win if they divide up the closing chores has become a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Few contending teams are closing games by commitee. Even with the Giants who have gone that route this year in Brian Wilson's absense, I'm guessing a closer from AAA will emerge in May or June.

1) Please repeat this truth as often as you like.

2) Preach. For some reason, MLB players don't get scrutinized for being selfish nearly as much as players in the other three major sports leagues.

voodoochile
04-26-2012, 11:22 AM
I was sitting about 4 rows behind the Sox dugout about 15 feet from the back of the coaches' heads. I had a great view of the failed squeeze. The thing that got me about it was that it was a perfect pitch. A low outside slider and Morel couldn't get wood on the ball. He tried, but he'd have had to fall over the plate to get to it. At least that was what I saw live. I have not seen a replay.

Noneck
04-26-2012, 11:26 AM
I was sitting about 4 rows behind the Sox dugout about 15 feet from the back of the coaches' heads. I had a great view of the failed squeeze. The thing that got me about it was that it was a perfect pitch. A low outside slider and Morel couldn't get wood on the ball. He tried, but he'd have had to fall over the plate to get to it. At least that was what I saw live. I have not seen a replay.

It was as you saw, his only shot was to toss the bat at the ball.

SoxandtheCityTee
04-26-2012, 11:48 AM
Since when is Jarrod Parker a "garbage no-name pitcher?"

I skimmed through the game when I got home so I didn't hear everything, but based on what I saw I'd be surprised if Hawk didn't pronounce that Parker has a "very good chance to be something special in this game," or similar. Dude can pitch.

LITTLE NELL
04-26-2012, 12:02 PM
Has a team ever gone closer by committee and succeeded?

The 1959 White Sox went with 2 closers, Gerry Staley and Turk Lown.
Lown was 9-2 with 15 saves.
Staley was 8-5 with 14 saves.

The 67 Sox also had a few closers with Bob Locker, Hoyt Wilhem, Don McMahon and Wilbur Wood.

Paulwny
04-26-2012, 12:18 PM
I am not a huge fan of lefty closers,unless you are Billy Wagner and throw over 101 mph. Fuentes has that dip down funky style that works ok,but really,how many lefty closers have had long runs? Too many strong righthanded hitters like Cepedes that threaten to change the game with one swing for my taste.


Sparkey Lyle
Randy Myers
Dave Righetti

wassagstdu
04-26-2012, 12:24 PM
This ability to make every Tom, Dick, Harry, soft tossing, garbage, no-name pitcher look like Cy Young just royally pisses me off

Me too. I remember listening to a Sox game, must have been in 1955, when the Sox were finally getting to Ed Lopat, Yankee junkballer. The announcer said the Sox had changed their approach to Lopat and were swinging for contact. I remember thinking, Lopat has been dominating teams with his junk for years and nobody ever thought of that before? Maybe the current Sox are afraid that if they shortened their swings for a soft-thrower it would throw off their timing when "sitting on dead red," as they mostly do?

asindc
04-26-2012, 12:30 PM
Me too. I remember listening to a Sox game, must have been in 1955, when the Sox were finally getting to Ed Lopat, Yankee junkballer. The announcer said the Sox had changed their approach to Lopat and were swinging for contact. I remember thinking, Lopat has been dominating teams with his junk for years and nobody ever thought of that before? Maybe the current Sox are afraid that if they shortened their swings for a soft-thrower it would throw off their timing when "sitting on dead red," as they mostly do?

I think there is some merit to that, but it is even more exacerbated in this "I'll swing as hard as I can, I don't care if I strike out" era.

JB98
04-26-2012, 12:30 PM
The radio postgame show was an example of silliness with Ranger getting all upset with callers who expressed a legitimate view of wanting Santiago removed from the closing role. The game was bad enough, but the show was the capper. Thankfully, Holmes called out Ranger for his nonsense immediately after the postgame show.

I loved what I saw from Santiago in his limited appearances last season. That screwball was impressive. Unfortunately, he's basically throwing batting practice this season. He can't be allowed to continue to blow games if this team has any hopes of contending. He's not not blowing saves. He's getting KILLED.

I agree with you. It's not the blown saves. Really, it's not. Every closer blows saves. It's part of baseball. It's the home runs allowed that are a huge red flag for me.

It is one thing to blow a save on a grounder with eyes, a stolen base and a bloop hit. It's another thing to blow saves on 410-foot missiles into the seats. Santiago is doing the latter and not the former.

Ranger has a habit of lashing out at anyone who offers a contrary viewpoint after a tough loss. On one level, it's understandable. He has to put up with idiots who have nothing better to do than complain about Konerko "not running hard enough" when he pops up. But, you know, sometimes dissatisfied fans do make legitimate points and they still get dismissed on that postgame show.

Nellie_Fox
04-26-2012, 01:03 PM
Sparkey Lyle
Randy Myers
Dave RighettiTug McGraw

amsteel
04-26-2012, 01:09 PM
Man, this thread is all over the place. I think we all agree this team is better than expected so far, which is to say they are a middle of the pack team. Middle of the pack teams lose about 50% of those games. Some of those games are extra inning loses and involve blown leads. We're not in a pennant chase here, folks.

This season is about the journey, not the result.

TomBradley72
04-26-2012, 01:19 PM
Man, this thread is all over the place. I think we all agree this team is better than expected so far, which is to say they are a middle of the pack team. Middle of the pack teams lose about 50% of those games. Some of those games are extra inning loses and involve blown leads. We're not in a pennant chase here, folks.

This season is about the journey, not the result.

+1

I'm still thrilled we're basically tied for 1st and >.500 in April.

Santiago not being able to grip his screwball is really hurting him- but the bigger issue is our overall run production- with a little run production we could be on about 10 game winning streak across the BAL/SEA/OAK series- still alot of promising signs with this team and I like the way they are approaching the game.

Dunn/Peavy/Rios were my big concerns entering the season- and that part of the team looks very promising.

russ99
04-26-2012, 01:36 PM
It appeared there was a missed sign on the suicide squeeze. What most teams do with a suicide squeeze is not only have a coach giving the signs but having the players receiving the signs making some sort of discreet indication that the sign has been received. The most fatal missed sign of all is a batter missing the sign on a suicide squeeze, and that was what I initially believed happened on the play, although it's possible Fukudome got it wrong.

Still, if you watch other teams play, the White Sox don't seem to miss more signs than other teams, even teams that don't have new managers and coaching staffs.

Fans don't like bunting, of course. They are upset when sacrifices are successful becuase the team is giving up an out and they are livid when sacrifices are unsuccessful. Tuesday night, there was a play where there could have been a bunt in a scoreless game, but Beckham, not missing the sign, grounded into a double play on a hit-and run where no one missed any signs, and the defense just turned a great play.

I wouldn't complain about a successful sacrifice of a runner from second to third with no one out, though, because the runner is supposed to be giving himself up by hitting to the right side even if he isn't sacrificing. You see a lot more bunting of runners from second to third with no one out than you used to. That seems to be because players don't want playing team baseball to hurt their batting averages.

I don't mind bunting, as long as you're trading that out for a run in a future at-bat that inning. I also think bunting for a hit (if done well) can mess with a pitcher's psyche and can lead to a successful inning.

The issue to me, as we saw often last year, was the leadoff guy doing his job and getting on base, the second guy made a good sacrifice to get him over and our run producers then failed to drive the run in.

Is bunting to blame, or is it more that the guys we pay big bucks to drive in RISPs seem to fail miserably at executing in those situations?

SoxSpeed22
04-26-2012, 01:36 PM
Blowing saves, it happens to everyone, but giving up 4 home runs in 6 1/3 innings pitched is alarming. Right handers have been teeing off on Hector's fastball.
Yeah, the execution stunk yesterday, but you're not going to completely undo 5 years of that **** within three weeks. I would like to see shorter swings as much as the rest of us.

Nellie_Fox
04-26-2012, 01:46 PM
...you're not going to completely undo 5 years of that **** within three weeks. I would like to see shorter swings as much as the rest of us.Oh, come on. They've been playing baseball all their lives. Plus, spring training started over two months ago, not three weeks. When does blaming things on Ozzie and Walker expire?

wilburaga
04-26-2012, 01:50 PM
Tug McGraw

Did someone mention John Franco? I'm getting disoriented.

Jerko
04-26-2012, 01:54 PM
I agree with you. It's not the blown saves. Really, it's not. Every closer blows saves. It's part of baseball. It's the home runs allowed that are a huge red flag for me.

It is one thing to blow a save on a grounder with eyes, a stolen base and a bloop hit. It's another thing to blow saves on 410-foot missiles into the seats. Santiago is doing the latter and not the former.

Ranger has a habit of lashing out at anyone who offers a contrary viewpoint after a tough loss. On one level, it's understandable. He has to put up with idiots who have nothing better to do than complain about Konerko "not running hard enough" when he pops up. But, you know, sometimes dissatisfied fans do make legitimate points and they still get dismissed on that postgame show.

Ranger is unlistenable to me. I don't feel sorry for him if he has to put up with a few crazies. 90% of the people here would kill for that kind of job. I feel more sorry for the people that have to listen to him and not get paid for it.

As for the game, yeah it may be time to change closers. I know they all blow a game sooner or later, but as mentioned before, he's getting murdered out there.

asindc
04-26-2012, 02:02 PM
Ranger is unlistenable to me. I don't feel sorry for him if he has to put up with a few crazies. 90% of the people here would kill for that kind of job. I feel more sorry for the people that have to listen to him and not get paid for it.

As for the game, yeah it may be time to change closers. I know they all blow a game sooner or later, but as mentioned before, he's getting murdered out there.

I'm among the 10%. He doesn't get paid enough to put up with so many drunken, emotional morons on a nightly basis.

kittle42
04-26-2012, 02:03 PM
As for the game, yeah it may be time to change closers. I know they all blow a game sooner or later, but as mentioned before, he's getting murdered out there.

Yup - a friend and I have been watching Santiago specifically and we both agreed he wasn't long for the job after only a few appearances. He just doesn't have "it" right now. I'd rather see Reed than Thornton, though.

Noneck
04-26-2012, 02:10 PM
As for the game, yeah it may be time to change closers. I know they all blow a game sooner or later, but as mentioned before, he's getting murdered out there.

I dont think its good for a young pitchers confidence to be whacked around as he has been. Thornton and Crain should take over although I think Reed is the future but Im afraid of two kids losing their confidence early in the season.

SoxSpeed22
04-26-2012, 02:13 PM
Oh, come on. They've been playing baseball all their lives. Plus, spring training started over two months ago, not three weeks. When does blaming things on Ozzie and Walker expire?For me, it expires at the end of this season. The only thing I'm looking for from the offense this season is improvement in spots like that, and they still have some work to do. Obviously expecting 90% is absurd, so 1/4 or 5/16 is fine by me. I've said before, I would be thrilled if we finished .500.

Harry Chappas
04-26-2012, 04:33 PM
For me, it expires at the end of this season. The only thing I'm looking for from the offense this season is improvement in spots like that, and they still have some work to do. Obviously expecting 90% is absurd, so 1/4 or 5/16 is fine by me. I've said before, I would be thrilled if we finished .500.

My admittedly low expectations were based on another season of awful baseball by Rios and Dunn and a mediocre/injured Jake Peavy. However, if those three keep it up and play at a high level, I would re-calibrate my expectations, in which case, .500 is not acceptable much less 'thrilling.'

Losing due to a lack of talent sucks but is at least understandable. But losing games due to poor fundementals or head-scratching coaching decisions is tough to stomach.

Hopefully, Ventura will wake up and realize that these games count too and try a new closer or go with a closer-by-committee and perhaps more importantly, not fall into the insane trap of bunting every time your lead-off man gets on base. As offensively challenged as the Sox are, they simply can't afford to give outs away.

SCCWS
04-26-2012, 05:06 PM
My admittedly low expectations were based on another season of awful baseball by Rios and Dunn and a mediocre/injured Jake Peavy. However, if those three keep it up and play at a high level, I would re-calibrate my expectations, in which case, .500 is not acceptable much less 'thrilling.'

Losing due to a lack of talent sucks but is at least understandable. But losing games due to poor fundementals or head-scratching coaching decisions is tough to stomach.

Hopefully, Ventura will wake up and realize that these games count too and try a new closer or go with a closer-by-committee and perhaps more importantly, not fall into the insane trap of bunting every time your lead-off man gets on base. As offensively challenged as the Sox are, they simply can't afford to give outs away.

I am not a fan of the bunt. However, until guys like Beckham and Morel can at least hit their weight, I have no problem. Beckham has more strikeouts than hits and he has hit into more double plays than he has extra base hits. At this point, the pitcher may be a better option hitting than he is.

Wedema
04-26-2012, 07:13 PM
Did someone mention John Franco? I'm getting disoriented.

Willie Hernandez