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SCCWS
04-21-2012, 01:50 PM
I know he has his supporters and detractors but I give him credit for yesterday. He was invited to take part in the 100th Anniversary at Fenway yesterday. Obviously with his personality he would have been a media favorite. Hawk is also still a popular former player in New England. But he passed on the spotlight and instead chose to do his job and go to Seattle. Certainly he bleeds black and white.

kufram
04-21-2012, 02:04 PM
Funny you should mention Hawk because I was thinking of starting a thread to say this but it didn't seem important enough.

I have posted before, more than once, that Hawk is caricature of himself and that he has a set of phrases that he always uses (and I do mean always) for every standard situation in baseball. We all know them, we hear them repeated endlessly. I always have a little bet with myself on how soon he will say "in my 50 years of baseball".... but I always lose the bet.

BUT, I have to say... I've listened to game from Texas, Cleveland, and Seattle now and, although the presenters may say more observant things, they have the most wooden, boring, drones of voices. There is no passion whatsoever.

I haven't changed my mind on Hawk but I have evidence that he has something that is missing from the competition. That is a sad state of affairs. I should go into baseball broadcasting.

LITTLE NELL
04-21-2012, 04:58 PM
I get the Rays and Marlins games and I'll take Hawk over those 2 broadcasting teams any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
I sort of like Hawk's old stories because I remember most of them from my younger days.
I've also noticed that Hawk and Stone are getting along much better this year, of course there are 24 weeks to go in the season and that can change.

ChiSoxGal85
04-21-2012, 05:04 PM
I get the Rays and Marlins games and I'll take Hawk over those 2 broadcasting teams any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
I sort of like Hawk's old stories because I remember most of them from my younger days.
I've also noticed that Hawk and Stone are getting along much better this year, of course there are 24 weeks to go in the season and that can change.
I noticed this as well. It seems they've struck some sort of accord or something.

I liked their exchange from yesterday's game:
Hawk: Did you ever have any oblique problems when you were playing?
Stone: We didn't have obliques back then.
Hawk & Stone: {snicker snicker}

I also noticed that Hawk seems to be suppressing the urge to jump all over the umpiring...but like you said, it's a long season.

TommyGavinFloyd
04-21-2012, 05:35 PM
I sure would rather hear Hawk announcing right now than awful Karros and guy in funny hat.

LongLiveFisk
04-21-2012, 05:48 PM
I've also noticed that Hawk and Stone seem to be having a few more laughs in the booth, which is definitely a good thing.

Still hearing some lengthy silences here and there though.

Soxman219
04-21-2012, 06:36 PM
When I saw this in the 9th, didn't know he had a perfect game going until the announcer said he did.

fisk4ever
04-21-2012, 06:51 PM
Hawk was seriously on my nerves last season, but he seems to have tamed the repetitive cliches a little this year. Keep it up, Hawk!

Noneck
04-21-2012, 06:52 PM
I wonder if he was given a choice.

Frontman
04-21-2012, 06:58 PM
Hawk was seriously on my nerves last season, but he seems to have tamed the repetitive cliches a little this year. Keep it up, Hawk!

Fresh blood in the dugout, fresh attitude with the organization. Hawk wears the White Sox heart on his sleeve.

I know he was torn not being on the air today.

"Dagnubbit, I wish I could cuss right now......" Hawk

"Ken, we're not on the air" Steve Stone.

"************* ****** ******** ******** ****** I wish we were calling today's game, Stone Pony!"

October26
04-22-2012, 08:12 AM
I sure would rather hear Hawk announcing right now than awful Karros and guy in funny hat.

Oh, me too. My main issue with the announcers for the Humber Perfect Game yesterday was that they did not know how to pronounce the Sox player's names like:

Who is "Care"-nerko?
Who is "Moral?"

I expect that professional announcers will take the time to learn how to say a player's name correctly at the very least. I know I'm sensitive to this type of stuff where others may not even notice it. I will give the Fox announcers credit for trying to make amends for a disappointing broadcast in the 9th inning as I thought they were really "rooting" for Humber to get his Perfect Game.

I can still remember Hawk's unforgettable call from Buehrle's Perfect Game:
"Call your sons! Call your daughters! Call your friends! Call your neighbors! Mark Buehrle has a perfect game going into the ninth!"

which brought chills down my spine. There is nobody like Hawk Harrelson in terms of enthusiasm and originality as far as I'm concerned. I only wish he had also had the call for Humber's Perfect Game. Having said all of this, I am still delirious with joy and smiling this morning (headed into my garden to pull weeds right now), as I remember the beautiful, perfect game that Philip Humber pitched yesterday. :D:

Wedema
04-22-2012, 11:32 AM
I know he has his supporters and detractors but I give him credit for yesterday. He was invited to take part in the 100th Anniversary at Fenway yesterday. Obviously with his personality he would have been a media favorite. Hawk is also still a popular former player in New England. But he passed on the spotlight and instead chose to do his job and go to Seattle. Certainly he bleeds black and white.


He even skipped Fenway on Friday knowing that he was off on Saturday due to the FOX broadcast.

shingo10
04-22-2012, 09:15 PM
Hawk was more amped up today then I've heard him in a long, long time. It was as if this particular game had some sort of personal significance to him.

And like some of you have mentioned it is very nice to hear him and Stone work together and compromise instead of the ego clashes of the past few seasons. Good stuff.

LongLiveFisk
04-22-2012, 09:33 PM
And like some of you have mentioned it is very nice to hear him and Stone work together and compromise instead of the ego clashes of the past few seasons. Good stuff.

Makes me wonder if one of the higher-ups had a little chat with them. :scratch:

chisoxfanatic
04-22-2012, 09:38 PM
To me, Hawk IS White Sox baseball. I do not know how I am going to take to him not calling Sox games when he retires. I do not want to even think of listening to Sox games without Hawk. It's bad enough when Fox takes some of these games and then I have to listen to the national broadcasting team rather than Hawk.

Standing Ovation
04-22-2012, 09:49 PM
He doesn't call him "Stone Pony" anymore.

FielderJones
04-22-2012, 11:52 PM
He doesn't call him "Stone Pony" anymore.

Nor does Steve call him Hawk; it's Ken now.

FielderJones
04-22-2012, 11:54 PM
I haven't changed my mind on Hawk but I have evidence that he has something that is missing from the competition. That is a sad state of affairs. I should go into baseball broadcasting.

Hearing baseball presented in a south coast English accent would be a hoot. :D:

Daver
04-22-2012, 11:59 PM
To me, Hawk IS White Sox baseball. I do not know how I am going to take to him not calling Sox games when he retires. I do not want to even think of listening to Sox games without Hawk. It's bad enough when Fox takes some of these games and then I have to listen to the national broadcasting team rather than Hawk.

I can only hope he retires tomorrow.

Brian26
04-23-2012, 12:05 AM
Oh, me too. My main issue with the announcers for the Humber Perfect Game yesterday was that they did not know how to pronounce the Sox player's names like:

Who is "Care"-nerko?
Who is "Moral?"

The irony in this statement is that we could have been lucky enough to listen to Hawk and Stone call the game and mispronounce Humber's name all day as HUHm-ber instead of Um-ber, as they did most of last season. John Rooney, the best Sox announcer in my lifetime, mispronounced Konerko as "Core-nerko" constantly.

Dave Sims did a good job yesterday. Hawk has nothing to add at this point that hasn't already been done.

GoGoCrede
04-23-2012, 12:09 AM
Nor does Steve call him Hawk; it's Ken now.

Yeah, I thought that was weird. Stone Pony was about the only nickname of Hawk's that I find tolerable. Well, that and Feisty. I wonder why the names were dropped.

Are they still sitting miles apart in the booth?

GoGoCrede
04-23-2012, 12:10 AM
The irony in this statement is that we could have been lucky enough to listen to Hawk and Stone call the game and mispronounce Humber's name all day as HUHm-ber instead of Um-ber, as they did most of last season. John Rooney, the best Sox announcer in my lifetime, mispronounced Konerko as "Core-nerko" constantly.

Dave Sims did a good job yesterday. Hawk has nothing to add at this point that hasn't already been done.

Plus, his call for the final out of Buehrle's perfect game wasn't all that great either. Cue the pitchforks, I know. But he just kept repeating the same word over and over. Felt it could have been better.

Lip Man 1
04-23-2012, 12:24 PM
GoGo:

Yes they are.

And Farmer's radio call of the final out wasn't that great either even if you ignore the fact that he named the wrong stadium.

Lip

doublem23
04-23-2012, 01:00 PM
Plus, his call for the final out of Buehrle's perfect game wasn't all that great either. Cue the pitchforks, I know. But he just kept repeating the same word over and over. Felt it could have been better.

I'm not sure what other normal reaction you'd expect from a fan. I thought that was actually a genuine, emotional call from Hawk. I half expected him to say something like, "a perfect game! That's a humdinger, gosh dang it!" or some other stupid, Southern, country fried "catch phrase" that he's been throwing out there for the past few years.

GoGoCrede
04-23-2012, 01:06 PM
I'm not sure what other normal reaction you'd expect from a fan. I thought that was actually a genuine, emotional call from Hawk. I half expected him to say something like, "a perfect game! That's a humdinger, gosh dang it!" or some other stupid, Southern, country fried "catch phrase" that he's been throwing out there for the past few years.

I know he's a fan, but he's also a professional. I guess it could have been worse. I'm biased when it comes to him.

doublem23
04-23-2012, 01:21 PM
I know he's a fan, but he's also a professional. I guess it could have been worse. I'm biased when it comes to him.

Yeah but we all know Hawk's not a strong, professional announcer, at least not the laid-back, Vin Scully mode. He is who he is, so you can't place unrealistic expectations on him. It'd be like getting mad that Gordon Beckham's not going to challenge Barry Bonds' HR record. After all, he's a professional ball player.

Like I said, I've heard Hawk yammer on and on about Matt Abbatacolas, hang whiff'ems, cans o' corn, etc. for years. For once, it was refreshing to hear him make a call that felt genuine and heartfelt.

AnkleSox
04-23-2012, 01:22 PM
Plus, his call for the final out of Buehrle's perfect game wasn't all that great either. Cue the pitchforks, I know. But he just kept repeating the same word over and over. Felt it could have been better.

I think his call of that final out was downright embarrassing, to be honest.

hawkjt
04-23-2012, 02:23 PM
Couple of points:

1. Last year, they went to the strike zone box to indicate which pitches were strikes and which were balls. I believe that the Sox went to this at least in part to respond to fans comments about the incessant complaining by Hawk on balls and strikes. And you know what? It worked. The change was immediate. What could he say when a pitch is clearly in the box or out of the box? Problem solved. Hawk no longer really complains about balls and strikes except when the box clearly shows a bad call,and then is justified.

2.Last week there was a thread about Hawk calling Dayan ''Tanks''....and I agreed it was very annoying. Well, within two days of that thread, Hawk suddenly dropped the ''s''...and it has become ''Tank'',which makes sense and is a solid nickname.

I honestly think that Hawk or Boyer or Sox management is trying to monitor fan reaction to Hawk more than in the past and looking to clean up his delivery a bit in reaction to criticisms. This pleases me,because I still like having him do the games,and as long as he reins it in just bit,he still brings the color of the old-timey baseball announcer to the booth,which I still enjoy. It really helps if the Sox play well....so lets all pray for a good season!

soxnut1018
04-23-2012, 02:57 PM
I've surprised he didn't go. Yaz was there.

shingo10
04-23-2012, 03:19 PM
Couple of points:

1. Last year, they went to the strike zone box to indicate which pitches were strikes and which were balls. I believe that the Sox went to this at least in part to respond to fans comments about the incessant complaining by Hawk on balls and strikes. And you know what? It worked. The change was immediate. What could he say when a pitch is clearly in the box or out of the box? Problem solved. Hawk no longer really complains about balls and strikes except when the box clearly shows a bad call,and then is justified.

2.Last week there was a thread about Hawk calling Dayan ''Tanks''....and I agreed it was very annoying. Well, within two days of that thread, Hawk suddenly dropped the ''s''...and it has become ''Tank'',which makes sense and is a solid nickname.

I honestly think that Hawk or Boyer or Sox management is trying to monitor fan reaction to Hawk more than in the past and looking to clean up his delivery a bit in reaction to criticisms. This pleases me,because I still like having him do the games,and as long as he reins it in just bit,he still brings the color of the old-timey baseball announcer to the booth,which I still enjoy. It really helps if the Sox play well....so lets all pray for a good season!

I hate that box. There have been so many pitches that have looked like good solid strikes and have been called that way but show up as balls in the box. The strike zone was never meant to be computerized.

Frontman
04-23-2012, 03:34 PM
Hawk still was using Tanks this weekend. Could just be a part of the conversation.

I did notice he did drop a good number of the nicknames (and I used the 'Stone Pony' reference as more of giving that made-up quote a bit of Hawkism) but he still uses a few of the "can o' corn," and the "mercy," and what not.

At least he hasn't used "Nintendo Stuff" in a while.

Irishsox1
04-23-2012, 03:42 PM
For those of us that recall Hawk as the Sox GM, I'll take him as the announcer any day.

The damage he caused in a short amount of time as the GM was staggering.

DonnieDarko
04-23-2012, 03:48 PM
At least he hasn't used "Nintendo Stuff" in a while.

It must be the gamer in me, because I actually loved that one. "Nintendo Stuff" or "Nintendo Pitch" were A+ in my book. :redneck

doublem23
04-23-2012, 04:47 PM
The strike zone was never meant to be computerized.

I don't know, the strike zone has some pretty rigid and formal boundaries per the official rules of baseball, it's not to hard to draw them.

Chez
04-23-2012, 04:55 PM
I appreciate the enthusiasm and unapologetic bias Hawk brings to the broadcast. Hawk sounds better when the team is winning. For that matter, the beer seems colder and my wife looks better when the team is winning.

dickallen15
04-23-2012, 05:18 PM
For those of us that recall Hawk as the Sox GM, I'll take him as the announcer any day.

The damage he caused in a short amount of time as the GM was staggering.
He wasn't going to win Executive of the Year, but if you look back at his year at the helm, he hardly caused much damage. The reason he got the job was because the farm system was worse than it is today. He didn't actually improve it much. He did draft Merullo and Radinsky and Mike Davis who Himes eventually shipped off for Roberto Hernandez. Not that impressive of a draft but in 1985 the Sox selected Kurt Brown ahead of Barry Bonds, not exactly a feather in Roland's and the scouting department's hats. He did get Bonilla for nothing, traded him for DeLeon who eventually was traded for Lance Johnson. He picked up Ivan Calderon for next to nothing, he traded away Britt Burns who never threw another pitch, and Tom Seaver was at the end of the line and didn't want to be there. He did want Fisk in LF, which was probably wrong, but he moved back behind the plate pretty quickly. That team was doomed from the start. He probably hastened the total rebuild which started the next year under Larry Himes, the GM that was fired after building a team that won 94 games with the smallest payroll in baseball. He did fire Dave Dombrowski, but Himes was the best GM in baseball from 87-90. He also fired LaRussa, which I think goes in the positive column.

In fact, his worst move was probably trading Bonilla, but if he had not, maybe one or more of McDowell, Ventura, Thomas or Fernandez never gets drafted by the White Sox.

Lip Man 1
04-23-2012, 05:39 PM
He also tried to make Fisk a left fielder :rolleyes: which wipes out everything else.

Lip

kufram
04-23-2012, 05:45 PM
I don't know, the strike zone has some pretty rigid and formal boundaries per the official rules of baseball, it's not to hard to draw them.


I would love to have the umpire's strike zone removed from the game at least regarding if the pitch is over the plate or not. That is a defined area easily nintendoed for every hitter. Let the ump call high and low... they might get that right more often.

Even cricket has hawkeye helping wicket decisions. I'd rather the calls be right.

dickallen15
04-23-2012, 05:50 PM
He also tried to make Fisk a left fielder :rolleyes: which wipes out everything else.

Lip
I mentioned that, but Fisk also played LF a few games when he was with the Red Sox and had been in LF before with the White Sox, and made appearances in LF and 1B after Hawk was gone. He also moved back to C after 31 games.

Hawk tried to move him to LF to try and preserve his body. Fisk hit his career high in homers at the age of 37 and had OPSs over .800 for 3 seasons in his 40s. If it were a player for another team, a lot would be implied with those facts.

WhiteSox5187
04-23-2012, 05:51 PM
He wasn't going to win Executive of the Year, but if you look back at his year at the helm, he hardly caused much damage. The reason he got the job was because the farm system was worse than it is today. He didn't actually improve it much. He did draft Merullo and Radinsky and Mike Davis who Himes eventually shipped off for Roberto Hernandez. Not that impressive of a draft but in 1985 the Sox selected Kurt Brown ahead of Barry Bonds, not exactly a feather in Roland's and the scouting department's hats. He did get Bonilla for nothing, traded him for DeLeon who eventually was traded for Lance Johnson. He picked up Ivan Calderon for next to nothing, he traded away Britt Burns who never threw another pitch, and Tom Seaver was at the end of the line and didn't want to be there. He did want Fisk in LF, which was probably wrong, but he moved back behind the plate pretty quickly. That team was doomed from the start. He probably hastened the total rebuild which started the next year under Larry Himes, the GM that was fired after building a team that won 94 games with the smallest payroll in baseball. He did fire Dave Dombrowski, but Himes was the best GM in baseball from 87-90. He also fired LaRussa, which I think goes in the positive column.

In fact, his worst move was probably trading Bonilla, but if he had not, maybe one or more of McDowell, Ventura, Thomas or Fernandez never gets drafted by the White Sox.

Hawk did not get the job because the farm system was a mess (I don't even know if it was that badly regarded back then). He got the job because for years he would go to Jerry Reisendorf and Eddie Einhorn and tell them that he could do a better job than Roland Hemond. After a near miss in 1985 caused by a lot of bullpen injuries, Hawk called Hemond out on air and Jerry was convinced that he needed to make a change and brought in Hawk. In firing Hemond the White Sox not only fired the guy that has two awards named after him for front office excellence, but it also cost them the third most winning manager in history and the guy who built the core of three pennant winning teams (and a team that might have won a fourth had the strike not happened).

Really losing Dombrowski was probably the biggest blow for the White Sox because as good as Himes was he managed to piss off everyone who worked for the White Sox too which is a hard feat to accomplish with Jerry Reisendorf as your boss.

dickallen15
04-23-2012, 05:55 PM
Hawk did not get the job because the farm system was a mess (I don't even know if it was that badly regarded back then). He got the job because for years he would go to Jerry Reisendorf and Eddie Einhorn and tell them that he could do a better job than Roland Hemond. After a near miss in 1985 caused by a lot of bullpen injuries, Hawk called Hemond out on air and Jerry was convinced that he needed to make a change and brought in Hawk. In firing Hemond the White Sox not only fired the guy that has two awards named after him for front office excellence, but it also cost them the third most winning manager in history and the guy who built the core of three pennant winning teams (and a team that might have won a fourth had the strike not happened).

Really losing Dombrowski was probably the biggest blow for the White Sox because as good as Himes was he managed to piss off everyone who worked for the White Sox too which is a hard feat to accomplish with Jerry Reisendorf as your boss.
Reinsdorf was pissed at the garbage coming up replacing injured players. Dombrowski would have been hard pressed to do anywhere near the job Himes did and leave it ready to win for years. I'll take McDowell, Ventura, Thomas, Fernandez, Durham, Bere..... In Roland's defense, it didn't help when Eddie Einhorn traded Doug Drabek, yes that Doug Drabek for a washed up Roy Smalley Jr.

The only White Sox GM that has built a pennant winner in the last 50 years is KW with a big assist to Ron Schueler.

What pennant did Roland win or LaRussa when they were with the Sox, and the guy who built the core of the team in the early 90s was Larry Himes. I like JR, but I think it irratated him that Himes didn't listen to him and was right most of the time. Its a good thing he didn't fire him earlier, and at one point he must have liked him because he gave him a better title.

Tragg
04-23-2012, 06:30 PM
Hawk also traded away and traded for Ron Hassey, all with the Yankees, three times over about a 7 month period.

Himes made a couple of great trades, specifically the Baines trade and the Bannister trade. Among other players, he acquired key pitchers that made us really good until McDowell et al were ready (aside from also getting Alvarez, of that mid 1990s era), like Melido, Hibbard and Eric King (sorry Kenny).

Schueler had some Kenny Williams in him when he went all out for veterans like Steve Sax and Cory Snyder

DonnieDarko
04-23-2012, 07:43 PM
...I've never heard of any of these pitchers. Any of them (save for McDowell).

Were they all any good?

dickallen15
04-23-2012, 07:53 PM
Hawk also traded away and traded for Ron Hassey, all with the Yankees, three times over about a 7 month period.

Himes made a couple of great trades, specifically the Baines trade and the Bannister trade. Among other players, he acquired key pitchers that made us really good until McDowell et al were ready (aside from also getting Alvarez, of that mid 1990s era), like Melido, Hibbard and Eric King (sorry Kenny).

Schueler had some Kenny Williams in him when he went all out for veterans like Steve Sax and Cory Snyder
Hassey was originally in the Burns trade. I believe trading him back had something to do with Burns basically not being able to pitch anymore. Then they traded for him again when Fisk went back behind the plate and Skinner wasn't who they were hoping he was, many Sox people thought Skinner was going to be really good, and they wanted a back up. Hassey was that guy. Alvarez was in the Baines steal.

Himes did he job about as well as anyone could, yet he was shown the door with that point A to point B to point C crap they used with Doug Collins.

For the record, I don't think Hawk was a great GM. I just think its always been very overblown how bad he supposedly was. The facts don't really back it up.

Lip Man 1
04-23-2012, 09:04 PM
To clarify some of the things talked about for what they are worth:

From my This Date In Sox History:

July 11, 1985 - The Sox blow a game and lose to the Orioles in Baltimore 7-6. The loss would have long term consequences for the franchise because it eventually led to the firing of longtime G.M. Roland Hemond. With two outs and the Sox leading 6-3, Bob James, the team closer hurt his right knee. In came journeyman relief pitcher Mike Stanton who was picked up out of the minors a few weeks before. Stanton didn’t get a man out and gave up a three run, game winning home run to Fred Lynn.

Up in the broadcast booth, Sox announcers Don Drysdale and Ken “Hawk” Harrelson were openly questioning the organization if the ‘best’ they could do was Stanton. It planted the seed in the mind of ownership that a change was needed. That ‘change’ turned out to be Harrelson... named the new G.M. that off season. The rest as they say is history.

From my biography of Jerry Reinsdorf:

"Eddie and I would talk to Hawk and (Don) Drysdale at length, and Hawk more so, to identify problems in the organization, we were still neophytes in this business and we were impressed with the way Hawk pointed out our problems. [GM] wasn't something he really wanted him to do, but we urged him to help us out. The mistake was that when you go to a doctor who diagnoses open-heart surgery, you don't have him do the surgery because he diagnosed the problem, you get a heart surgeon. Just because Hawk was able to diagnose our problems did not mean he could solve them. It was a terrible position to put him in, and a year later, he said he wanted out." – Jerry Reinsdorf to the Chicago Tribune’s Melissa Issacson. May 28, 2004.


From my interview with Roland Hemond:


ML: In 1983 a number of folks both inside and outside the organization wanted Tony LaRussa fired. You were always in his corner. Why?

RH: “Regarding Tony, my confidence in him never waned while others tried very hard to destroy him. I feel very vindicated today as Tony is on his way to Cooperstown as a member of a very elite group of Hall Of Fame managers. I recognized Tony’s intelligence in finding ways to get the most with whatever personnel we could provide. He was a severe critic of himself, admitting to himself and to me, when he felt he made mistakes during a game. He eliminated repeating mistakes and devised ways to improve and not to fall into ruts of buying into old baseball cliches. I could go on and on why he is such a successful manager. I reserve the right to withhold more information on this for various reasons.”

ML: Your tenure with the Sox ended after the 1985 season when broadcaster ‘Hawk’ Harrelson was named to replace you. Can you talk about the circumstances surrounding that and give us an overview of the rest of your career.

RH: “I’ll withhold my comments regarding the Hawk episode.”

Now I found out from sources that Roland was asked to meet with J.R., Eddie and others to talk about the plans for next season after the 1985 season ended. Roland showed up and they talked but the 'interview' ran long. J.R. walked Roland out to his car and lo and behold, who shows up in his car but Hawk. That's when Roland knew, from what I was told, that he was going to be pushed out.

From my This Date In Sox History:

September 15, 1990- Owner Jerry Reinsdorf fires G.M. Larry Himes citing "personality differences." Himes drafted and signed Sox future stars like Frank Thomas, Jack McDowell, Robin Ventura and Alex Fernandez. During the press conference announcing the hiring of Ron Schueler as new G.M., Reinsdorf issues his famous "point A to point B to point C" comment.

From my biography of Jerry Reinsdorf:

“The fact is, Larry Himes cannot get along with anybody. You can hardly find anybody in the Sox organization that wasn’t happy when Larry Himes left.” – Jerry Reinsdorf to radio talk show host Chet Coppock. September 1990.


“The past is gone. The fact we did reach Point C this year doesn’t mean Larry (Himes) wouldn’t have reached it. It does mean we guessed right with Ron (Schueler). I just felt at the time a change was necessary, so let’s not think about anything but the future. We all have a good relationship now.” – Jerry Reinsdorf to the Chicago Sun - Times’ Joe Goddard and Tony Ginnetti. September 28, 1993. Pg. 92.

In my opinion the single greatest G.M. in franchise history (and there have been some very good ones, Frank Lane, Ed Short, Kenny Williams and Ron Schueler) is Roland Hemond, for one reason.

NO OTHER G.M. in history for the Sox took over with the magnitude of the problems Roland did.

In September 1970, the Sox almost literally had no fans, they had no money, Comiskey Park was falling apart, the neighborhood was considered unsafe and there were rampant rumors they were going to Milwaukee.

Two years later the Sox nearly won a division, had a winning record, drew over a million fans, got their radio contract with a major station back and had money in the bank.

Lane, Scheuler, Williams, NONE of those guys had to wok through the problems Roland did, NONE.

Give Roland the payroll Schueler or Kenny had to work with and he would have had a lot more success on the field. As it turned out Roland did pretty damn well having to work with Allyn and Veeck and the early days of J.R.

Roland gave the Sox 72, 77 and 83. Nuff said.

Lip

dickallen15
04-24-2012, 11:44 AM
To clarify some of the things talked about for what they are worth:

From my This Date In Sox History:

July 11, 1985 - The Sox blow a game and lose to the Orioles in Baltimore 7-6. The loss would have long term consequences for the franchise because it eventually led to the firing of longtime G.M. Roland Hemond. With two outs and the Sox leading 6-3, Bob James, the team closer hurt his right knee. In came journeyman relief pitcher Mike Stanton who was picked up out of the minors a few weeks before. Stanton didn’t get a man out and gave up a three run, game winning home run to Fred Lynn.

Up in the broadcast booth, Sox announcers Don Drysdale and Ken “Hawk” Harrelson were openly questioning the organization if the ‘best’ they could do was Stanton. It planted the seed in the mind of ownership that a change was needed. That ‘change’ turned out to be Harrelson... named the new G.M. that off season. The rest as they say is history.

From my biography of Jerry Reinsdorf:

"Eddie and I would talk to Hawk and (Don) Drysdale at length, and Hawk more so, to identify problems in the organization, we were still neophytes in this business and we were impressed with the way Hawk pointed out our problems. [GM] wasn't something he really wanted him to do, but we urged him to help us out. The mistake was that when you go to a doctor who diagnoses open-heart surgery, you don't have him do the surgery because he diagnosed the problem, you get a heart surgeon. Just because Hawk was able to diagnose our problems did not mean he could solve them. It was a terrible position to put him in, and a year later, he said he wanted out." – Jerry Reinsdorf to the Chicago Tribune’s Melissa Issacson. May 28, 2004.


From my interview with Roland Hemond:


ML: In 1983 a number of folks both inside and outside the organization wanted Tony LaRussa fired. You were always in his corner. Why?

RH: “Regarding Tony, my confidence in him never waned while others tried very hard to destroy him. I feel very vindicated today as Tony is on his way to Cooperstown as a member of a very elite group of Hall Of Fame managers. I recognized Tony’s intelligence in finding ways to get the most with whatever personnel we could provide. He was a severe critic of himself, admitting to himself and to me, when he felt he made mistakes during a game. He eliminated repeating mistakes and devised ways to improve and not to fall into ruts of buying into old baseball cliches. I could go on and on why he is such a successful manager. I reserve the right to withhold more information on this for various reasons.”

ML: Your tenure with the Sox ended after the 1985 season when broadcaster ‘Hawk’ Harrelson was named to replace you. Can you talk about the circumstances surrounding that and give us an overview of the rest of your career.

RH: “I’ll withhold my comments regarding the Hawk episode.”

Now I found out from sorces that Roland was asked to meet with J.R., Eddie and others to talk about the plans for next season after the 1985 season ended. Roland showed up and they talked but the 'interview' ran long. J.R. walked Roland out to his car and lo and behold, who shows up in his car but Hawk. That's when Roland knew, from what I was told, that he was going to be pushed out.

From my This Date In Sox History:

September 15, 1990- Owner Jerry Reinsdorf fires G.M. Larry Himes citing "personality differences." Himes drafted and signed Sox future stars like Frank Thomas, Jack McDowell, Robin Ventura and Alex Fernandez. During the press conference announcing the hiring of Ron Schueler as new G.M., Reinsdorf issues his famous "point A to point B to point C" comment.

From my biography of Jerry Reinsdorf:

“The fact is, Larry Himes cannot get along with anybody. You can hardly find anybody in the Sox organization that wasn’t happy when Larry Himes left.” – Jerry Reinsdorf to radio talk show host Chet Coppock. September 1990.


“The past is gone. The fact we did reach Point C this year doesn’t mean Larry (Himes) wouldn’t have reached it. It does mean we guessed right with Ron (Schueler). I just felt at the time a change was necessary, so let’s not think about anything but the future. We all have a good relationship now.” – Jerry Reinsdorf to the Chicago Sun - Times’ Joe Goddard and Tony Ginnetti. September 28, 1993. Pg. 92.

In my opinion the single greatest G.M. in franchise history (and there have been some very good ones, Frank Lane, Ed Short, Kenny Williams and Ron Schueler) is Roland Hemond, for one reason.

NO OTHER G.M. in history for the Sox took over with the magnitude of the problems Roland did.

In September 1970, the Sox almost literally had no fans, they had no money, Comiskey Park was falling apart, the neighborhood was considered unsafe and there were rampant rumors they were going to Milwaukee.

Two years later the Sox nearly won a division, had a winning record, drew over a million fans, got their radio contract with a major station back and had money in the bank.

Lane, Scheuler, Williams, NONE of those guys had to wok through the problems Roland did, NONE.

Give Roland the payroll Schueler or Kenny had to work with and he would have had a lot more success on the field. As it turned out Roland did pretty damn well having to work with Allyn and Veeck and the early days of J.R.

Roland gave the Sox 72, 77 and 83. Nuff said.

Lip

Larry Himes took over a total rebuild. He basically gave the Sox 90 93 and 94 and he was only the GM for 4 seasons. The difference is Roland is one of the nicest people you would ever meet, Himes isn't very friendly, but the job he did cannot be overlooked. He was spectacular.

As to Hawk and Drysdale questioning if Stanton was the best they can do, if its wrong for Hawk to be a total homer and praise guys like Stanton, calling him and the organization out should be refreshing. I guess not. As the kids say today, haters gonna hate.

soxinem1
04-24-2012, 11:47 AM
All I am glad for now with Hawk is that he stopped that 'Tanks' ****. :smile:

Larry Himes took over a total rebuild. He basically gave the Sox 90 93 and 94 and he was only the GM for 4 seasons. The difference is Roland is one of the nicest people you would ever meet, Himes isn't very friendly, but the job he did cannot be overlooked. He was spectacular.

He also drafted Jason Bere, snatched Roberto Hernandez from the then CA for Mark Davis, Dave LaPoint from STL for a Crosstown Classic 'star', and had pitchers like Ken Patterson, Greg Hibbard, Wilson Alvarez, and Melido Perez thrown into trades.

He might have been a prick but he knew how to draft players, and he also unsunk the White Sox.

Lip Man 1
04-24-2012, 12:37 PM
Dick:

Not disagreeing with you but (and I don't know how old you are) the Sox were never in such desperate straights like they were when Roland and Chuck took over in September 1970.

During Himes tenure the possibility exsisted that the Sox would move of course, like when Roland took over...the difference was the future was assured when the Sox got their new stadium...something Roland never got did he?

That was a major, major difference between the two which is another reason why Roland gets the edge.

Lip

Sad
04-24-2012, 12:47 PM
Hawk still was using Tanks this weekend.

back to Tank for last night's game :scratch:

dickallen15
04-24-2012, 01:19 PM
Dick:

Not disagreeing with you but (and I don't know how old you are) the Sox were never in such desperate straights like they were when Roland and Chuck took over in September 1970.

During Himes tenure the possibility exsisted that the Sox would move of course, like when Roland took over...the difference was the future was assured when the Sox got their new stadium...something Roland never got did he?

That was a major, major difference between the two which is another reason why Roland gets the edge.

Lip

That meant nothing at the time. Himes never was the GM at the new park and operated every season as GM with the lowest payroll in baseball. Roland deserves all the credit he gets. He's a great guy. When I was a kid I watched a spring training game with my dad in Fort Lauderdale and Roland sat next to us and talked to us like we had been neighbors forever. He also had a much longer tenure, so I'm sure if Himes were able to stick around, he would have probably sufferred, but from 87 to 9/90, no Sox GM ever really had a stretch that good, considering where he started out. He set the team up for long after he was gone.

Lip Man 1
04-24-2012, 03:15 PM
That meant nothing at the time? Really???

The fact that Himes no longer had to worry about the franchise being moved?

Really?

Strongly disagree with you there, the fact that he knew the organization had some stability which is something Roland never had the first six years of his tenure is huge in my book.

We'll simply have to agree to disagree on this.

The Sox sucked on the field under Himes in three of the four years which is how he got those draft picks (and he never even lasted the winning season...), two years after Roland and Chuck took over the Sox came a Bill Melton injury close from winning a division and had a winning record.

Don't get me wrong not saying Himes was bad, just that to say he was the best G.M. is really stretching things considering he's going up against Roland and Frank Lane (who stole Carrasquel,Fox, Pierce, Lollar, Rivera etc...)

Lip

Frontman
04-24-2012, 03:19 PM
back to Tank for last night's game :scratch:

I think when he says Tanks its more of a slip or a slurring of the name, versus doing so deliberately.

Although, last night he did have a few "Hang wuffem" and "Can o Corn." I think he's just using them a bit more conservatively.

dickallen15
04-24-2012, 05:50 PM
That meant nothing at the time? Really???

The fact that Himes no longer had to worry about the franchise being moved?

Really?

Strongly disagree with you there, the fact that he knew the organization had some stability which is something Roland never had the first six years of his tenure is huge in my book.

We'll simply have to agree to disagree on this.

The Sox sucked on the field under Himes in three of the four years which is how he got those draft picks (and he never even lasted the winning season...), two years after Roland and Chuck took over the Sox came a Bill Melton injury close from winning a division and had a winning record.

Don't get me wrong not saying Himes was bad, just that to say he was the best G.M. is really stretching things considering he's going up against Roland and Frank Lane (who stole Carrasquel,Fox, Pierce, Lollar, Rivera etc...)

Lip
No its not. And Himes was the GM when the Sox were going to move to Tampa. That vote was in 1988, he became GM in 1986. He was given the job to rebuild. He was given the smallest budget in baseball.Of course the team was going to suck, just like Roland's no payroll teams of 1975,1976,1978,1979 and 1980. He made great trades. He got Hibbard and Perez for Bannister, he traded Baines for Fletcher, Sosa and Alvarez, he drafted McDowell, Ventura, Thomas, Fernandez, Durham and Bere. He traded a minor leaguer for Roberto Hernandez. In essence he's not only a big part of the early 90's team, he's also a part of the 2000 team as Hernandez and Alvarez became Foulke and Howry. As soon as the team he built started to win, he was shown the dooor. He's unlike KW and Schueler. He didn't inherit 90+ win teams with a lot of talent. Any talent he had that cost money, except for Carlton Fisk, he had to discard.

Lip Man 1
04-24-2012, 06:04 PM
Dick:

Again we'll just have to agree to disagree.

No G.M. who was only around less than five years can be considered "the best" in my book...sorry, not when going up against Lane, Hemond, Schueler and Williams.

Lip

fram40
04-24-2012, 09:52 PM
Dick:

Again we'll just have to agree to disagree.

No G.M. who was only around less than five years can be considered "the best" in my book...sorry, not when going up against Lane, Hemond, Schueler and Williams.

Lip

Nice back and forth, Lip and Dick. Sending me down memory lane.

I have one question for Lip - How did the Sox fall so far so fast? 1959 - pennnat winners. 1967 ended one great era for the Sox - 17 consecutive seasons over .500. How the hell in just three years did they get so close to being sent to Seattle?

TomBradley72
04-24-2012, 10:01 PM
Hawk did not get the job because the farm system was a mess (I don't even know if it was that badly regarded back then). He got the job because for years he would go to Jerry Reisendorf and Eddie Einhorn and tell them that he could do a better job than Roland Hemond. After a near miss in 1985 caused by a lot of bullpen injuries, Hawk called Hemond out on air and Jerry was convinced that he needed to make a change and brought in Hawk. In firing Hemond the White Sox not only fired the guy that has two awards named after him for front office excellence, but it also cost them the third most winning manager in history and the guy who built the core of three pennant winning teams (and a team that might have won a fourth had the strike not happened).

Really losing Dombrowski was probably the biggest blow for the White Sox because as good as Himes was he managed to piss off everyone who worked for the White Sox too which is a hard feat to accomplish with Jerry Reisendorf as your boss.

We went from Hemond/LaRussa to Harrelson/Fregosi in a matter of months- lost Bobby Bonilla for not much in return- and had a ridiculous circus around Billy Martin- all coming off an 85 win season (despite some major injuries- like losing our closer Bob James) which was one of the best in the recent 20 years or so (other than 1972, 1977 and 1983).

Harrelson as a GM = Bevington as a manager.

TomBradley72
04-24-2012, 10:09 PM
Dick:

Again we'll just have to agree to disagree.

No G.M. who was only around less than five years can be considered "the best" in my book...sorry, not when going up against Lane, Hemond, Schueler and Williams.

Lip

I agree with Lane, Hemond and Williams- but I saw nothing great about Schueler- he inherited the young nucleus from Himes- had the luxury of a much higher payroll/revenue stream thanks to the new ballpark- and then let go of Torborg and replaced him with Lemont, then Bevington, then Manuel- not a stellar track record of selecting managers- I'd take Torborg over any of them.

Hell- the Steve Sax and Jaime Navarro moves alone tarnish his legacy.

Lip Man 1
04-25-2012, 01:13 AM
Fram:

A big reason was a series of disasterous deals by Ed Short who lost the mojo he had from the early / mid 60's. The Sox almost literally gave away Buford, Locker, Agee, Martin and Weis and got practically nothing back in return.

That certainly didn't help matters.

Lip

dickallen15
04-25-2012, 10:19 AM
We went from Hemond/LaRussa to Harrelson/Fregosi in a matter of months- lost Bobby Bonilla for not much in return- and had a ridiculous circus around Billy Martin- all coming off an 85 win season (despite some major injuries- like losing our closer Bob James) which was one of the best in the recent 20 years or so (other than 1972, 1977 and 1983).

Harrelson as a GM = Bevington as a manager.
Bob James got hurt in 1986 when Hawk was the GM, so he had to deal with losing the closer, and didn't have Burns, who never pitched after 1985 after winning 18 games with the 1985 team or Seaver who won 16 in 1985, who whined his way to the east coast and was ineffective anyway. No matter who was the GM in 1986, it wasn't going to go very well. Hawk wasn't the greatest, but he wasn't Bevington. He got Bonilla for nothing and while trading him maybe wasn't the greatest idea, it did eventually turn into Lance Johnson, and had they kept Bonilla, maybe they don't get the shot at McDowell, Ventura, Thomas and Fernandez. I don't think any GM can put together 4 consecutive #1 picks like that against Himes.

WhiteSox5187
04-25-2012, 12:37 PM
Bob James got hurt in 1986 when Hawk was the GM, so he had to deal with losing the closer, and didn't have Burns, who never pitched after 1985 after winning 18 games with the 1985 team or Seaver who won 16 in 1985, who whined his way to the east coast and was ineffective anyway. No matter who was the GM in 1986, it wasn't going to go very well. Hawk wasn't the greatest, but he wasn't Bevington. He got Bonilla for nothing and while trading him maybe wasn't the greatest idea, it did eventually turn into Lance Johnson, and had they kept Bonilla, maybe they don't get the shot at McDowell, Ventura, Thomas and Fernandez. I don't think any GM can put together 4 consecutive #1 picks like that against Himes.

The White Sox closer in 1985 was hurt for a period of time (he went down in a game against Baltimore that Lip cited) and that led to the unraveling of the '85 season.

As for Himes, I think the biggest knock against him is that he was such a jerk, if you can get Jerry Reisendorf to publicly trash you then you probably have some issues that need to be worked on. Also unlike a guy like Dombrowski who had success with three different teams, Himes was a complete disaster with the Cubs (thankfully) and believed he could replace Greg Maddux with Juan Guzman and Mike Morgan. As fantastic as his drafts were I don't know if he just went with the obvious picks or what. I know that Ventura and McDowell were highly ranked players going into the draft and I don't know who was drafted ahead of them, it is possible that he benefited from having a high draft pick and making the obvious pick although that should not count against him or diminish the drafts he had with the White Sox.

tstrike2000
04-25-2012, 12:48 PM
The irony in this statement is that we could have been lucky enough to listen to Hawk and Stone call the game and mispronounce Humber's name all day as HUHm-ber instead of Um-ber, as they did most of last season. John Rooney, the best Sox announcer in my lifetime, mispronounced Konerko as "Core-nerko" constantly.

Dave Sims did a good job yesterday. Hawk has nothing to add at this point that hasn't already been done.

Almost as good as "Diane" instead of "Dy-in."

dickallen15
04-25-2012, 01:13 PM
The White Sox closer in 1985 was hurt for a period of time (he went down in a game against Baltimore that Lip cited) and that led to the unraveling of the '85 season.

As for Himes, I think the biggest knock against him is that he was such a jerk, if you can get Jerry Reisendorf to publicly trash you then you probably have some issues that need to be worked on. Also unlike a guy like Dombrowski who had success with three different teams, Himes was a complete disaster with the Cubs (thankfully) and believed he could replace Greg Maddux with Juan Guzman and Mike Morgan. As fantastic as his drafts were I don't know if he just went with the obvious picks or what. I know that Ventura and McDowell were highly ranked players going into the draft and I don't know who was drafted ahead of them, it is possible that he benefited from having a high draft pick and making the obvious pick although that should not count against him or diminish the drafts he had with the White Sox.
James the closer who came back after missing some July games, got hurt and missed most of the second half when Hawk was GM. If its an excuse for Roland, its an excuse for Hawk.
McDowell was picked 5th, Frank 7th, Ventura 10th, and Fernandez 4th. Roland had 8 or 9 top ten picks when he was the GM. Baines at #1 was the best. Other than that, a lot of crap the second best probably being Daryl Boston. Making Hawk the GM paid off for JR whether or not it was a nice thing to do to a nice guy like Roland who had no problem landing on his feet. IMO, Roland's forte was major league players, or at least players who were just about ready to contribute. The Sox needed a rebuild and had the proper people in place as the evidence shows.

ode to veeck
04-26-2012, 10:23 AM
I can only hope he retires tomorrow.

I've been waiting since the day he and Drysdale started to call Sox games...

shingo10
04-26-2012, 11:56 AM
His call of Konerko's 400th yesteday was priceless. Can't deny his enthusiasm. Also, he sounded sick to his stomach as everyone probably sounded after watching the trainwreck 14th.

Wedema
04-26-2012, 08:22 PM
His call of Konerko's 400th yesteday was priceless. Can't deny his enthusiasm. Also, he sounded sick to his stomach as everyone probably sounded after watching the trainwreck 14th.


Both ESPN Sportscenter and the Sox on the pregame show today cut out the stupid "H--- Yes" part.

Andy T Clown
04-26-2012, 09:03 PM
To me, Hawk IS White Sox baseball. I do not know how I am going to take to him not calling Sox games when he retires. I do not want to even think of listening to Sox games without Hawk. It's bad enough when Fox takes some of these games and then I have to listen to the national broadcasting team rather than Hawk.

Agreed.